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edao
14-11-11, 17:53
With politicians having failed the people they represent miserably across Europe, its seems odd that now both Greece and Italy have turned to Technocrats.

"Technocracy is a form of government where technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields. Engineers, scientists, health professionals, and those who have knowledge, expertise or skills would compose the governing body. In a technocracy, decision makers would be selected based upon how knowledgeable and skillful they are in their field." source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy)


Europe: the rise of the technocracy - guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/13/europe-rise-technocracy-editorial?INTCMP=SRCH)Does it not make sense that technical experts should always be in charge? In any other industry when would you vote in popular people rather than the best man for the job, someone with an actual qualification. We have people who are career politicians who have never worked a day in their life (David Cameron :rolleyes2:). Chancellors who know nothing about economics, defence minister who know nothing of international affairs or the army, frequent cabinet reshuffles presuming that any minister could do any job.

Do you think Technocrats are preferred to Politicians?

Yetos
14-11-11, 17:58
With politicians having failed the people they represent miserably across Europe, its seems odd that now both Greece and Italy have turned to Technocrats.

"Technocracy is a form of government where technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields. Engineers, scientists, health professionals, and those who have knowledge, expertise or skills would compose the governing body. In a technocracy, decision makers would be selected based upon how knowledgeable and skillful they are in their field." source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy)


Europe: the rise of the technocracy - guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/13/europe-rise-technocracy-editorial?INTCMP=SRCH)

Does it not make sense that technical experts should always be in charge? In any other industry when would you vote in popular people rather than the best man for the job, someone with an actual qualification. We have people who are career politicians who have never worked a day in their life (David Cameron :rolleyes2:). Chancellors who know nothing about economics, defence minister who know nothing of international affairs or the army, frequent cabinet reshuffles presuming that any minister could do any job.

Do you think Technocrats are preferred to Politicians?


Sorry this not Correct Greece has not turn to technocrats
Technocrats are Forced iN greece by Foreigns
THEY ARE NOT ELECTED

about politicians
the whole game was set uo much before by Trilaterals.org and G30

we are living Bad times for Democracy

Maciamo
14-11-11, 18:54
I have long been in favour of technocrats over politicians, because:

1) technocrats are usually more competent, more knowledgeable and more specialised
2) politicians usually just care about power and focus most of their energy on being elected and re-elected
3) there are so many idiots in society that I am not convinced that democracy is the ideal way towards efficient government. It may have been in the simpler times of the 18th or 19th century, but not in the complex globalised world in which we live today.

sparkey
14-11-11, 19:03
I think it's a misconception that technocrats are going to automatically be more unbiased than politicians. Their bias is just going to be different... one of being locked into a certain field and looking to advance/protect it, often at the expense of others. Politicians, although holding their own biases and being corrupt in their own way, are more likely to look at the balance of the whole.

I am very skeptical of pure democracy, but look upon technocrats with at least as much suspicion. For example, in the US, I would never want Congress to be in control of the federal banking system... hence my preference for giving the Federal Reserve certain autonomy... but at the moment it seems clear to me that the Federal Reserve has too much autonomy, and has made poor decisions without oversight.

An improved system would involve a few more checks and balances, and a lot more built-in restrictions that are actually enforced.

I would vote "No, thanks" in this poll if that was an option.

julia90
14-11-11, 19:47
i'm in favour of Technocrats, legitimately voted by citizens

Mzungu mchagga
15-11-11, 00:25
I have long been in favour of technocrats over politicians, because:

1) technocrats are usually more competent, more knowledgeable and more specialised
2) politicians usually just care about power and focus most of their energy on being elected and re-elected
3) there are so many idiots in society that I am not convinced that democracy is the ideal way towards efficient government. It may have been in the simpler times of the 18th or 19th century, but not in the complex globalised world in which we live today.
Some while ago I thought about a new, modernized form of democracy. This would be some kind of direct democracy in which every citizen can only vote for issues related to his profession or study degree. Of course, besides a minimum age, suffrage would also ask for a completed study degree or business experience.

edao
15-11-11, 01:40
One example of how democratic decision making doesn't work is X-Factor, I'm not sure what the relevant franchises across Europe are called but I know they exist. (the singing talent shows were people audition as singers for the chance to become a national pop star)

Certainly in the UK at least these are touted as the quest for the next big music entertainer, someone with real talent. Yet almost every year the winner decided by the public is cast aside after 6 months of dwindling publicity and public interest. If these shows are meant to create pop stars of the future they fail, yet the very people who are your market are deciding who is going to be the winner. Incredibly once they make their choice they decide it's actually not what they wanted after all.

Instead big pop stars are manuifactured by record companies with music producers (experts in their field) to create an over all package, regardless of your musical taste its an example where asking the people what they want doesn't work.

Also Apple's approch to the IPad. Steve Jobs didn't bother with market research he felt he was an expert in the industry and knew from experience where the technology was evolving and instead told the people what they wanted. Again another example of an industry expert with a single vision creating something better, rather than diluting it by consulting the people, market, voters. Designing by commity springs to mind.

Yetos
15-11-11, 02:22
One example of how democratic decision making doesn't work is X-Factor, I'm not sure what the relevant franchises across Europe are called but I know they exist. (the singing talent shows were people audition as singers for the chance to become a national pop star)

Certainly in the UK at least these are touted as the quest for the next big music entertainer, someone with real talent. Yet almost every year the winner decided by the public is cast aside after 6 months of dwindling publicity and public interest. If these shows are meant to create pop stars of the future they fail, yet the very people who are your market are deciding who is going to be the winner. Incredibly once they make their choice they decide it's actually not what they wanted after all.

Instead big pop stars are manuifactured by record companies with music producers (experts in their field) to create an over all package, regardless of your musical taste its an example where asking the people what they want doesn't work.

Also Apple's approch to the IPad. Steve Jobs didn't bother with market research he felt he was an expert in the industry and knew from experience where the technology was evolving and instead told the people what they wanted. Again another example of an industry expert with a single vision creating something better, rather than diluting it by consulting the people, market, voters. Designing by commity springs to mind.


another example of that is also that technocrats are not really technocrats but wise guys is also X factor

now comparing the audience which is majority and vote lets see the X of Technocrats,
in Maths 1+1 = 2 etc etc
so why when it comes to X factor technocrats of show (singers dancers etc? arque and vote defferent?
because even in Specialists it is not clear which dissicion is good

I wonder what kind of human I will be with out the choice and my think and my judge,
if I always listen to technocrats hmmm
lets see at 1920 I would be a communist, in 1940 a Nazi in 50 a Macarthy fan etc etc
or every morning I would this and that and the other cause Technocrats say so,

I agree that the opinion of a Technocrat is stronger than an opinion of another
But have you checked what is behind?

for example i was ones reading about consuming eggs, sorry but still don't know if eggs are good or bad to my health,

the day that my voice or my opinion is forbiden the same day I am a slave

the X factor is a good point that even Technocrats who are considered speciallist have different opinion and 1+1 does not make 2,

freedom is not only wear chains but speak think and express
Freedom is to live according laws, without need to bow, made by humans for humans
freedom is not to change laws every day to supress human rights, and enslave them
freedom is not to obey masters voice,

hmm steve jobs,
yes one man with dream, what makes you believe he was a technocrat?
technocrat comes from Greek Τεχνη + κρατος meaning the power of arts, the state of arts
art is not only good arts but also many
with the word technocrat we mean the one that is focused in the model work, and the numbers accuracy, not the one specialist or a vision of production,
for example if the industry was in Technocrats and only in them then until today we might all have as car the Ford T8 model,

one of the best mathematician of the world Abel

5344

a never technocrat speciallist.


I do not vote the poll cause the real Question is

IS EU GOVERNED BY A TRUST OF COUNTRIES AND ELECTED RULERS?
or
IS EUROPEAN GOVERNED BY A TRUST OF BANKERS AND NOT ELECTED PEOPLE?

meaning who is the ruler? Mercel Sarkozy or Trisse and Monti and Dragi?

bankers give the orders to rulers? or rulers give orders to Bankers?

Yetos
16-11-11, 01:53
Now about Technocrats and Politician

The whole Europe was Satisfied by the choice of Papadimos in Greece,

Yes the Messiah, the savor of EU crisis

But lets take a look what and who was

http://denplirono.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/papadimos-daneia.jpg


For those who do not understand Greek
Papademos opinions

Give free consuming loans to the people
do not put brake on Loans
Help the banks to give loans with less criteria

same time was the Stock exchange in Greece
in 2 years time many greeks took loans to play to stock listening to his voice,
in 3 years stock collapse leaving many families to despair and poverty
houses and fortunes and medium class corporations were lost by the advice of Papademos

For his great accomplishment EU make him ECB manager
Now he returns to complete his work

so what Technocrat what politician
it is the same .
Both can say lies and both can create damage.

Democracy must Defend Her shelf against the attacks of her enemies,

either their face is politician, either technocrat either media,



the Ephialtes always existed.

Part 2
Papademos Glory also is that he was the main cooker-chef in Greece entrance to Eurozone,
the paradox is that if some European say that it was a mistake for Greece to enter EU
then why they are satisfied with Papademos choice?
since he was the main reason that Greece enter Eurozone and he created the crisis (with Goldman sachs helping finger offcourse)

In fact that could be a good question to all those who blaim Greeks, to all those who are penitents for older mistake of allow Greece to Eurozone, How they are satisfied now?
what satisfaction gives them the Papademo s choice?
the only I can think is that as a technocrat he may either cheat Eu again !!!!
either he can cook a new recipe so to calm crisis for 2-3 years and then might return worse.

so no matter technocrats or politicians is the same,
and since Papademos is not elected the whole case is an anomaly.

Yetos
16-11-11, 09:05
How Tecnhocrats work?

no need for advertisement
but a good example

Dr A dentist The toothpaste XYZ is unigue it helps in .....
Dr B Dentist The ZYX toothpaste formula is the best cause .....
Dr C Dentist The YZX toothpaste The Olny ONE that can do ......

so what is the difference among Technocrats and politician?
all 3 above are technocrats
who is the one?
the one that people choose

Franco
19-11-11, 18:44
Prime minister should be a politician and then technocrats as ministers, specially in key fields like Domestic Economy or Sciencie and Industry. Anyways what bothers me is not whether politicians or technocrats, but foreigners whose intererests are different than electors's telling people who should rule them, like this or that technocrat that pleases the markets most, even if they voted for somebody else. That's not democracy IMO.

Yetos
25-11-11, 17:02
Μια από τις πρώτες αποφάσεις του νέου πρωθυπουργού Λ. Παπαδήμου, με τη συνεπικουρία του Ευ. Βενιζέλου, είναι να ικανοποιήσει τα χατίρια της Μέρκελ και του γερμανικού κατεστημένου για τη Siemens. Αυτό προκύπτει από τη χθεσινή συνεδρίαση του υπουργικού συμβουλίου, όπου ο κ. Παπαδήμος, άμα τη επιστροφή του από τις Βρυξέλλες και τη Φρανκφούρτη, ζήτησε να κλείσει η σχετική εκκρεμότητα.

The Technocrat!!!!!

well since Technocrats are good, lets see

Greece was in war with Siemens case
for C4I, Metro, trolleys, and many other cases,
many minister like Liapis Mitsotakis Tsoykatos Mantelis were heard and how much they took to overcharge Greek people for shake of Siemens,

Siemens is boycoted by Greek people at least 3 years,
but the good wise technocrat papademos or papa-Banker find solution,
he stops all charges and law measurement against siemens

that was a prime condition according Resler to open the 6th dose case for Greece
the German offered 200 000 000 E in order to 'find out and stop chasing Siemens,
and guess what Benizelos is about to agree with 150 000 000 E a sum that was proposed by Papademos and Pampoukis !!!!!!

according counters the sum was 800 000 000 E that siemens should pay to Greek goverment

the rest is up to you

Sometimes a technocrat is worse than a politician, especially when is not elected by promoted by foreign powers
just like a dictator!!!

source
http://www.antinews.gr/2011/11/25/135271/#more-135271

well in greece we still say I do not pay,
I do not buy Siemens products,
send Papa-banker back to Brussels

Cimmerianbloke
26-11-11, 16:48
All politicians have an agenda, regardless of the inclination. They have to provide for those who put them into power.
Technocrats? why not, after all, we're so deep in it now that we might give them a chance...

Spion Stirlitz
26-11-11, 17:36
I usually take the care of reading at least superficially the former posts before giving my own opinion... however, this one time I have ready my answer, from my experience:

Politicians are better.

Some people, that tries to think abstractly and go from the definition of the words and "what sould be", probably will say "technocrats"... Undoubtly they believe that the difference is that the last ones have the head filled with a lot of practical economic formulas, are aware of limitations, know recipes to produce economic growth...

In reality, "technocrat" as it bagan to be used in the last part of the XX Century, is really just a hard liner neoliberal. A these, instead of having a "manual for economic growth" in the head, just have a secret agenda of how to concentrate income (get the rich richer).

What I say may seem radical. But it is the experience of my liftime.

Regards.

LeBrok
26-11-11, 20:02
I'm for technocracy. For technocrats to come in position to run whole country they would need to have previous long experience and a very good record of running cities and regional governments.