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Goga
16-11-11, 00:29
"The theory of Scandinavian racial purity cherished by Hitler and the Nazis has been rubbished by new scientific research.

... The study found that bodies from 2000-year-old burial sites in eastern Denmark contained "as much genetic variation in their remains as one would expect to find in individuals of the present day" ...

... Far from being isolated and 'genetically pure', the study on the burial sites found that Danes mixed with peoples from across the globe. ...

"It becomes clear that the Danes must have been in contact with other peoples," said scientist Linea Melchior, who analysed DNA from the Bøgebjerggård and Skovgaarde sites.

"One of the Danish burial grounds, which dates back to the iron age also contained the remains of a man who appears to have been of Arabian origin," she added.

Both that body and the 'Arabian' body discovered by Linea Melchior were buried in identical fashion to 'locals', showing researchers say "that people from distant parts of the world could be and were absorbed in Danish communities"."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/2124105/Adolf-Hitlers-Aryan-theory-rubbished-by-science.html

sparkey
16-11-11, 01:10
For those who want to skip the media fluff, here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18046774) is the actual abstract, from 2008:


The Roman Iron-Age (0-400 AD) in Southern Scandinavia was a formative period, where the society changed from archaic chiefdoms to a true state formation, and the population composition has likely changed in this period due to immigrants from Middle Scandinavia. We have analyzed mtDNA from 22 individuals from two different types of settlements, Bøgebjerggård and Skovgaarde, in Southern Denmark. Bøgebjerggård (ca. 0 AD) represents the lowest level of free, but poor farmers, whereas Skovgaarde 8 km to the east (ca. 200-270 AD) represents the highest level of the society. Reproducible results were obtained for 18 subjects harboring 17 different haplotypes all compatible (in their character states) with the phylogenetic tree drawn from present day populations of Europe. This indicates that the South Scandinavian Roman Iron-Age population was as diverse as Europeans are today. Several of the haplogroups (R0a, U2, I) observed in Bøgebjerggård are rare in present day Scandinavians. Most significantly, R0a, harbored by a male, is a haplogroup frequent in East Africa and Arabia but virtually absent among modern Northern Europeans. We suggest that this subject was a soldier or a slave, or a descendant of a female slave, from Roman Legions stationed a few hundred kilometers to the south. In contrast, the haplotype distribution in the rich Skovgaarde shows similarity to that observed for modern Scandinavians, and the Bøgebjerggård and Skovgaarde population samples differ significantly (P approximately 0.01). Skovgaarde may represent a new upper-class formed by migrants from Middle Scandinavia bringing with them Scandinavian haplogroups.

Basically they found one guy buried in Denmark with mtDNA R0a.

Knovas
16-11-11, 13:10
They think he was a slave or something like this, it doesn't seem this haplogroup was dominant in that period. Frankly, I don't expect Danish samples being much different from the main Scandinavians we see in the projects now.

edao
16-11-11, 13:36
Dam! Now I'll have to throw away all the blonde hair dye and blue contact lenses. :grin:

razor
16-11-11, 18:07
I think Adolf's own DNA marker rubbishes his "theory " best of all, and demonstrates in passing the complete moral neutrality of genes. In other words, you can be an ass**** no matter what your Y-DNA. A thought for our genetic fanaticists.

MOESAN
17-11-11, 23:14
I think Adolf's own DNA marker rubbishes his "theory " best of all, and demonstrates in passing the complete moral neutrality of genes. In other words, you can be an ass**** no matter what your Y-DNA. A thought for our genetic fanaticists.pp

ethnic "purity" is a concept more attached to intra-mating than to mutated genes -
even the purest true "race" in animals have a lot of mutated genes, without any crossing (far crossing because every male and female are doing a "crossing" when the give life to a child, even if they are brother and sister
surely the Scandinavians as a whole had known fewer crossings these last centuries than the European people living around the Danube. It's not to say they are pure, but you can find more mixed yet. No more worth in that constat -
the HG's say more to us on almost individual lineages than say the autosmals: these last ones depict more closely the recent
history of people as groupsl
by the way, I don't pay attention at racists and anti-racists - genetics is genetics, phenotype is phenotype - The illminded Dolfi Hitler is died and is DNA has nothing to do with what he said about the true or false 'nordic race'

sparkey
17-11-11, 23:28
FWIW, I basically agree with Kambiz Kamrani's conclusions (http://anthropology.net/2008/06/26/an-arab-in-roman-iron-age-denmark/):


Does this finding warrant headlines like, “Adolf Hitler’s Aryan theory rubbished by science (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/2124105/Adolf-Hitler's-Aryan-theory-rubbished-by-science.html)” appearing in the newspaper the Telegraph? No, it does not. Like I said, this finding isn’t surprising nor does it mean that 1 individual in Iron-Age Denmark throws off the whole genetic composition of an entire population. The overwhelming majority of Danes do not carry this haplogroup. So, the presence of the remains of male with with the haplogroup R in his mtDNA simply suggests he is of Near Eastern descent.

And I would add that it's unclear how recently Near Eastern this fellow's matriline is. They only tested HVR1 so we don't get any resolution. R0a is on the same branch as HV and could be deceptively anciently European.

rms2
25-12-11, 14:34
. . .

Basically they found one guy buried in Denmark with mtDNA R0a.

Quite true, yet notice how the story is spun. Of course it is true the Aryan myth was rubbish, but so is the multi-culti crap advanced by the modern media. Notice how convenient it is for them to dub this set of remains "Arabian", thus to allay the fears we common rabble have of creeping Islamization. Why look, they seem to say, Arabs have always been here! What are you worried about?

Trevor
04-03-12, 03:57
"Adolf Hitler's Aryan theory rubbished by science"

I would like to see someone explain exactly what Hitler's "Aryan theory" was. And I would like to see texts from Hitler's books or speeches to back up their interpretation. And then they might show how the "theory" has been "rubbished by science."

Anyone?

Carlos
04-03-12, 14:37
He openly criticizes Hitler and every Nazi ideology, but we must not forget that this ideology is still alive and has been adopted by individuals or groups including the allied countries that once ended with Nazism, and can be found in USA Italy and other countries varied, from South America to the East, most often applies to surreptitiously. The other day I read an article by scientists, men and women, Italians, who claimed that not only is amoral abortion, nor is ending the life of a newborn, for the fact that there is a being who can decide by itself, obviously the word Nazi never left for any site, but I have the feeling listening to this kind of belief that the ideology of Hitler and Nazism has permeated large individual segments or not and in foreign countries of their origin, what is the cause? possibly dissatisfaction with the present, as is the reality and that is why some must take refuge in ideologies that promise or promised a better world, not knowing that this is a world of flies, there is a not better world.

http://www.intereconomia.com/noticias-gaceta/sociedad/revista-journal-of-medical-ethics-ve-admisible-matar-los-recien-nacidos-201

The Journal of Medical Ethics' is permissible to kill infants.

mihaitzateo
04-03-12, 22:35
I think those guys who said it should be legal to kill newborn infants are just some idiots.

Trevor
03-04-12, 21:39
"Adolf Hitler's Aryan theory rubbished by science"

I would like to see someone explain exactly what Hitler's "Aryan theory" was. And I would like to see texts from Hitler's books or speeches to back up their interpretation. And then they might show how the "theory" has been "rubbished by science."

Anyone?

Anyone? No one?

Noman
22-08-13, 01:10
Anyone? No one?

Basically it's about indus valley civilization, which is western india and parts of pakistan. There was a lot of historical reference to blonde people in the area.

Hitler was a huge archaeology nut, even more so than movies like raiders of the lost ark would have you believe, and also into aliens and the occult. There was some group that believed that the indus valley was the home of the aldebarran civilization which came to earth and that true germans were descended not from the filthy humans around them but from spacemen.

Sounds completely crazy, but no I am not making this up. There's also weird references in the vedic documents that sound almost like star wars movie plots, and at one of the IVC cities there's inexplicably high radiaion levels and there's sheets of glassed sand in some parts of india.

Of course that part at the least is (hopefully) just crazy talk but there's loads of interesting historical stuff, too. First off it turns out that the vedic y-dna haplogroup seems to be r1a, which is the northern pale often blondish group of central europe and siberia. Historically there's a lot of reference to blonde aryan people in the area, as well.

IVC is where the nazi symble comes by, btw, from the same city that has all the radiation. Hitler so identified with these aryans that he took on that symbol for himself.

There is an actual aryan tribe and some of them are blonde, but it's hard to tell if they were mostly blonde at some point. However that area is a lot paler than india or pakistan and tracing back historically it looks like it also gets paler as you go back in time. Actual aryans are probably nothing to do with anythign as they have a rare R2 haplotype that is not around much any more and are seldom blonde or white looking. H

owever gedrosia also has some I in it, much more than you'd expect so far east and south, so the idea of IVC being white is not necessarily bunk at all. But, there's also evidence to support the exact opposite, that the inhabitants were black.

Since IVC was incredibly advanced for its time and has no evidence of any warfare or military culture, everyone wants to stake their claim. Indians and pakistanis of course get furious someone suggests it was anyone but them who lived there. But clearly both those places are not really genetic epicenters but just mixes from other sources.

So even if you are not a nationalist of some kind this is one of the bigger mysteries that it would be nice to solve. And no I don't think that any aryan theory is really busted, though they are not aryans tribesmen per se. The theory is just that the people there are related to people in germany which is somehwhat true since vedics are r1a and that can be seen as a germanic haplotype (though I guess the nazis would rather see themselves as haplogroup I like the vikings).

But without testing dna we won't know for sure.

Carlos
22-08-13, 02:14
Please again the Vikings are in the soup, Hollywood idealize enough of the Vikings are doing lots of damage in the world, everyone thinks it is viking, oh, yes tomorrow I'll go buy the schleker one L'Oreal boat myself I'll be Viking. It inosportable, please do Berbers movies are wonderful I can assure you.

Fire Haired
22-08-13, 02:57
Basicalley what i know is that Hitler's Aryan theory was based on idea's other people in the 1800's had that Nordic's. Or just the people around Scandinavia and other areas of north Europe who have always been known for blonde hair and light eyes since Europeans could write. Europeans though what we know now as Indo European languages were their languages. Then they found out Indians speak a language in the same family, Which is why it became known as Indo European. So alot concluded that a group of Europeans conquered India thousands of years ago and were the Aryans who based on over 3,000 year old Indian book were the people who brought Indo Iranian-Indo European language to India. Also some Indo Iranian ethnic groups like Pashuten were known for European features mainly light hair and eyes. So Germanic speaking people in Europe took this as people from their area conquered India and were the Aryans. They also sclaimed INdo European languages began in i think denmark. Then spread but Germanic people are the only pure Indo Europeans everyone mixed. And Hitler and other Germanic people at that time thought blonde hair and blue eyes was the perfect human and started with the INdo Europeans who i guess now they called Aryans. It has very very very very very little real historical evidence. For one think Germans and Scandinavians are not that related that is what DNA is now showing. Their only connection is proto Germanic speakers conquered far far southern Scandinavia 3,500-4,000ybp starting the Nordic bronze age then spread the Germanic language back down south. That is the only Gene flow that has connected Germans and Scandinavians. Besides that they have a diff ancestry. Also blonde hair and light eyes are most popular in non Germanic speaking Finnish and Baltic people and north west Russians. The high amount of blonde hair in Scandinavia comes from Pre Germanic people who had nothing to do with Indo Europeans. There is no such thing as the Nordic race well Scandinavians Swedish, Norwegian, and Finnish are from the same family but not Germans. Human history is extremely complicated and not one people group with certain physical features is completely dominate. It is just luck that certain people become successful everyone has the same ability to. There has been some DNA info published in june 2013 it came from some of the earliest Indo Europeans from 6,000 and 5,000ybp in Ukraine and southern Russia. What came back is they had pale skin like mod euro's and very dark eyes like the people in that area today. There is one thing that those scientists in the 1800's were able to track not all of them were nazis. It is true (based on ancient DNA) that the people who spread the indo Iranian language or were the first speakers they came from probably north central Russia orignalley and they did have mainly light hair and eyes which is why it pops up in Iran or whatever but had absolutely nothing to do with Germans.I really dont understand the idea that Nordic's or Germanic people are superior. They claim that they are were civilization comes from, Are u kidding me they had nothing to do with civilization till Rome taught them like in the 400's ad. mid easterns (Afro Asiatic-Semetic speakers) can claim they are the creators of civilization not Germans.

Noman
22-08-13, 02:59
Please again the Vikings are in the soup, Hollywood idealize enough of the Vikings are doing lots of damage in the world, everyone thinks it is viking, oh, yes tomorrow I'll go buy the schleker one L'Oreal boat myself I'll be Viking. It inosportable, please do Berbers movies are wonderful I can assure you.

Paris has eiffel tower, nords or whatever you call them have vikings. They can complain to the end of time but they will never get rid of it.

Carlos
22-08-13, 09:25
Yes I know, but it is necessary that countries like USA idealize the Vikings in the film because when it is his turn to represent Spanish used in American cinema with strong American traits and that the current Spanish do not like not racist problems rather because we see it as cultural fascism. Why did the Vikings have to be represented with gym bodies and a blond handsome L'Oreal and Spanish in Spain with South American players? As in the case of British pirtatas have given them a treatment that are wonderful people any child plays at being a Pirate English were terrorists please state terrorism era is already well over the world can not view this type of partisan agree that England is the special friend discovered America USA but we can not choose to represent Ponce de León for example with a Malaysian actor appearance with all due respect to Malaysia as I said before that is cultural fascism.

Toscano
22-08-13, 18:13
What a shitty tread! They found 1 race mixed kid and now whole EUROPE IS racemixed? Sounds like jewish propaganda to me!
Europeans are close related to each outher! The reason some italians and greeks etc cluster closer to some Middleeasterns is becuse of the ROMAN EMPIRE and HELLENIZATION! Not the outerway around!

And stop saying scandinavians aint pure! They are more pure then you race mixed americans. Your mixed of all people in europe + INDIAN + BLACK + JEWS.

Learn history kids!

Noman
24-08-13, 12:21
Yes I know, but it is necessary that countries like USA idealize the Vikings in the film because when it is his turn to represent Spanish used in American cinema with strong American traits and that the current Spanish do not like not racist problems rather because we see it as cultural fascism. Why did the Vikings have to be represented with gym bodies and a blond handsome L'Oreal and Spanish in Spain with South American players? As in the case of British pirtatas have given them a treatment that are wonderful people any child plays at being a Pirate English were terrorists please state terrorism era is already well over the world can not view this type of partisan agree that England is the special friend discovered America USA but we can not choose to represent Ponce de León for example with a Malaysian actor appearance with all due respect to Malaysia as I said before that is cultural fascism.

Well you can't blame all america for most of that. Hollywood makes schlock then blames the people watching and uses it as proof of racism in the next heartbeat.

But if they showed a spaniard without dark hair, eyes, and skin and ruddy complexion I think people would be massively confused at this point. But maybe you can blame that on hollywood too as that's all they've seen.

edao
24-08-13, 13:43
To make the point that Aryan theory is scientifically unfounded is to miss the point.
The theory was pure propaganda to give the German people the mandate to justify their aggression against other racial or ethnic groups.

How much of what modern politicians today say is actually true, why do they lie or mislead, pure propaganda. You have to appreciate it did was it was designed to do, to unite the German people and to install the sense that they had a God given right to dominate others, really not a bad message to give the people at a time of war.

Giving the people a 'super natural' belief in themselves is nothing new and is a fundamental psychological tool in success training.

"Manifest Destiny was the belief that the United States was pre-ordained to expand from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific coast. The concept was expressed during Colonial times, but the term was coined in the 1840s by a popular magazine which editorialized, "the fulfillment of our manifest destiny...to overspread the continent allotted by Providence for the free development of our yearly multiplying millions." As the nation grew, it said "by the right of our manifest destiny." "Manifest destiny" became a rallying cry for expansionists in the Democratic Party in the 1840s as the Tyler and Polk administrations (1841–48) successfully promoted this nationalistic doctrine." source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier#Manifest_Destiny)

Carlos
24-08-13, 14:13
Well you can't blame all america for most of that. Hollywood makes schlock then blames the people watching and uses it as proof of racism in the next heartbeat.

But if they showed a spaniard without dark hair, eyes, and skin and ruddy complexion I think people would be massively confused at this point. But maybe you can blame that on hollywood too as that's all they've seen.

I'm not saying the Spanish show as blond would go to the extreme but with its South American Indian features bone when we see it cause us suffering because we are not well.

Edao you are a wonderful person Noman too.

MOESAN
24-08-13, 17:58
Basicalley what i know is that Hitler's Aryan theory was based on idea's other people in the 1800's had that Nordic's. Or just the people around Scandinavia and other areas of north Europe who have always been known for blonde hair and light eyes since Europeans could write. Europeans though what we know now as Indo European languages were their languages. Then they found out Indians speak a language in the same family, Which is why it became known as Indo European. So alot concluded that a group of Europeans conquered India thousands of years ago and were the Aryans who based on over 3,000 year old Indian book were the people who brought Indo Iranian-Indo European language to India. Also some Indo Iranian ethnic groups like Pashuten were known for European features mainly light hair and eyes. So Germanic speaking people in Europe took this as people from their area conquered India and were the Aryans. They also sclaimed INdo European languages began in i think denmark. Then spread but Germanic people are the only pure Indo Europeans everyone mixed. And Hitler and other Germanic people at that time thought blonde hair and blue eyes was the perfect human and started with the INdo Europeans who i guess now they called Aryans. It has very very very very very little real historical evidence. For one think Germans and Scandinavians are not that related that is what DNA is now showing. Their only connection is proto Germanic speakers conquered far far southern Scandinavia 3,500-4,000ybp starting the Nordic bronze age then spread the Germanic language back down south. That is the only Gene flow that has connected Germans and Scandinavians. Besides that they have a diff ancestry. Also blonde hair and light eyes are most popular in non Germanic speaking Finnish and Baltic people and north west Russians. The high amount of blonde hair in Scandinavia comes from Pre Germanic people who had nothing to do with Indo Europeans. There is no such thing as the Nordic race well Scandinavians Swedish, Norwegian, and Finnish are from the same family but not Germans. Human history is extremely complicated and not one people group with certain physical features is completely dominate. It is just luck that certain people become successful everyone has the same ability to. There has been some DNA info published in june 2013 it came from some of the earliest Indo Europeans from 6,000 and 5,000ybp in Ukraine and southern Russia. What came back is they had pale skin like mod euro's and very dark eyes like the people in that area today. There is one thing that those scientists in the 1800's were able to track not all of them were nazis. It is true (based on ancient DNA) that the people who spread the indo Iranian language or were the first speakers they came from probably north central Russia orignalley and they did have mainly light hair and eyes which is why it pops up in Iran or whatever but had absolutely nothing to do with Germans.I really dont understand the idea that Nordic's or Germanic people are superior. They claim that they are were civilization comes from, Are u kidding me they had nothing to do with civilization till Rome taught them like in the 400's ad. mid easterns (Afro Asiatic-Semetic speakers) can claim they are the creators of civilization not Germans.

I agree for most but I beg your pardon for a point: Scandinavians are not "pure" unique nordic phenotypes more than some others population are pure "something phenotype" OK but on an other side separatIng too much continental northern Germans from Scandinavians and say that Scandinavians are phénotypically the same as Finns from Finland or Estonia IS A BIG ERROR! all of these populations are AND akin AND foreign for some parts of them and the ' so called nordic' mixture is very heavy only among western Finns (coastal areas for the most): this 'norrdic' mixture is an heavy part among eastern british people and flemish people (germanic speaking ): the difference is that these last countries are poor concerning other very light blond components which are frequent among northeastern Finns (not Saami), and too (but less) among Balts and northern Slavs: in every slavic land, even the "dark" ones you find among blonds (relative internal % of light hairs) a very light component heavier than among western Germans and Celts... always the error: more you are light (blond) more your are 'nordic': for a time, COON can be cited: he insisted very hard on this point!
the lightest blonds in germany are not the most typical Germans (but it is not to say Germans were predominantly dark or mixedcoloured at the time they became a separate well differentiated culture): surely rather frequently dark blond and dolichocephallic (the most often light, "flaxen" the blond, the less dolichicephallic the people at a collective level)-
to go back to the thread, I think Hitler "remasterized" old theories which were, false or true, very too complicated for him: He took what could fit his propaganda of a superior folk and satisfy his inferiority complexes and revenge desires

MOESAN
24-08-13, 18:08
by the way is this thread a thread about racism or human group's suprematy of any sort in general or one about Hitler error and propaganda using some bits of harsh History where Aryans had a place, justified or not??? No offense, just a remark because very often a lot of threads run wildly on every direction (I know I make sometimes some too detailed remarks too, not helping to answer the principal question; but if details are evocated by someones and false (to my eyes!) it can help...

Noman
24-08-13, 23:03
He just asked about the theory. There's no racism involved with the original theory itself (or spacemen), which hitler didn't invent, that's a separate issue.

And is it true? not necessarily from the invading horsemen standpoint but it's very true almost all of eurasia is genetically linked ie "caucasians", which is what the original theory was about. But it could well be more Indians west west than other way around.

American Idiot
20-11-13, 12:52
"The theory of Scandinavian racial purity cherished by Hitler and the Nazis has been rubbished by new scientific research.

... The study found that bodies from 2000-year-old burial sites in eastern Denmark contained "as much genetic variation in their remains as one would expect to find in individuals of the present day" ...

... Far from being isolated and 'genetically pure', the study on the burial sites found that Danes mixed with peoples from across the globe. ...

"It becomes clear that the Danes must have been in contact with other peoples," said scientist Linea Melchior, who analysed DNA from the Bøgebjerggård and Skovgaarde sites.

"One of the Danish burial grounds, which dates back to the iron age also contained the remains of a man who appears to have been of Arabian origin," she added.

Both that body and the 'Arabian' body discovered by Linea Melchior were buried in identical fashion to 'locals', showing researchers say "that people from distant parts of the world could be and were absorbed in Danish communities"."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/2124105/Adolf-Hitlers-Aryan-theory-rubbished-by-science.html


you should see that movie called "the 13th warrior"

American Idiot
20-11-13, 12:58
What a shitty tread! They found 1 race mixed kid and now whole EUROPE IS racemixed? Sounds like jewish propaganda to me!
Europeans are close related to each outher! The reason some italians and greeks etc cluster closer to some Middleeasterns is becuse of the ROMAN EMPIRE and HELLENIZATION! Not the outerway around!

And stop saying scandinavians aint pure! They are more pure then you race mixed americans. Your mixed of all people in europe + INDIAN + BLACK + JEWS.

Learn history kids! LOL! thankx , I needed a good laugh.

Aberdeen
22-11-13, 16:54
Given that Hitler's Aryan theory seems to have been mostly about his longing for tall, blonde, blue-eyed men, I don't know why anyone would expect the theory to have anything to do with science.