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spongetaro
17-11-11, 23:46
Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins (from Wikipedia):

Seafaring





sea
See
zee
sjö
mare
θάλασσα
(thalassa)
море
(more)


ship
Schiff
schip
skepp
navis
πλοίο
(ploio)
плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))


strand (beach)
Strand
strand
strand
litus, acta
παραλία
(paralia)
берег
(bereg)


ebb
Ebbe
eb
ebb
decessus, recessus
άμπωτις
(ampotis)
отлив
(otliv)


steer
steuern
besturen
styra
guberno
κυβερνώ
(kuberno)
управлять
(upravlyat)


sail
segeln
zeilen
segla
navigo
πλέω
(pleo)
плавать
(plavat)


keel
Kiel
kiel
köl
carina
καρίνα
(karina)
киль
(kil)


north
Norden
noorden
nord
septentriones
βορράς
(borras)
север
(sever)


south
Süden
zuiden
syd
australis, meridies
νότος
(notos)
юг
(yug)


east
Osten
oosten
öst
oriens
ανατολή (anatoli)
восток
(vostok)


west
Westen
westen
väst
occidens
δύση
(dysi)
запад
(zapad)





Warfare/weapons




sword
Schwert
zwaard
svärd
gladius
σπαθί
(spathi)
меч
(mech)


shield
Schild
schild
sköld
scutum
ασπίδα
(aspida)
щит
(shchit)


helmet
Helm
helm
hjälm
galea
κράνος
(kranos)
шлем
(shlem)


bow
Bogen
boog
båge
arcus
τόξο
(toxo)
лук
(luk)






Communal


English German Dutch Swedish Latin Greek Russian

king
König
koning
kung
rex
βασιλεύϛ
(basileus)
король
(korol)


knight*
Knecht
knecht
knekt
servitus
υπηρέτης
(ypiretis)
слуга
(sluga)


thing
Ding
ding
ting
res
πράγμα
(pragma)
вещь
(veshch)

Taranis
18-11-11, 00:14
Interesting thread, Spongetaro. I found this hypothesis quite interesting, but I admit I do not know about the latest discussion of it. What is clear is that many words originally considered of non-IE origin do actually have cognates in other IE languages, so the list has been getting smaller and smaller.

Of the words above, 'helmet' definitely is a cognate with PIE *k´el- ("to hide"), which is (amongst other places) found in:

- Latin 'celere' (to hide), which is in turn the source of the English word 'conceal').
- Greek 'kalypto' (to hide), which is in turn found in the word 'apocalypse)
- Lithuanian 'šalmas' (helmet)
- the Thracian deity name 'Zalmoxis'
- interestingly, the Slavic word for 'helmet' appears to be in turn a loan from Germanic.

Likewise, 'east' is a cognate with PIE 'aues-' (to shine), which include:
- word for gold: Latin 'aurum', Gaulish 'auron', Irish 'ór', Welsh 'aur', Albanian 'ar', Lithuanian 'auksas'
- word for dawn: Latin 'aurora' (dawn), Greek 'eos' (dawn, morning), Lithuanian 'aušra'

Yetos
18-11-11, 01:06
Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins (from Wikipedia):

Seafaring




sea
See
zee
sjö
mare
θάλασσα
(thalassa)
море
(more)


ship
Schiff
schip
skepp
navis
πλοίο
(ploio)
плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))


strand (beach)
Strand
strand
strand
litus, acta
παραλία
(paralia)
берег
(bereg)


ebb
Ebbe
eb
ebb
decessus, recessus
άμπωτις
(ampotis)
отлив
(otliv)


steer
steuern
besturen
styra
guberno
κυβερνώ
(kuberno)
управлять
(upravlyat)


sail
segeln
zeilen
segla
navigo
πλέω
(pleo)
плавать
(plavat)


keel
Kiel
kiel
köl
carina
καρίνα
(karina)
киль
(kil)


north
Norden
noorden
nord
septentriones
βορράς
(borras)
север
(sever)


south
Süden
zuiden
syd
australis, meridies
νότος
(notos)
юг
(yug)


east
Osten
oosten
öst
oriens
ανατολή (anatoli)
восток
(vostok)


west
Westen
westen
väst
occidens
δύση
(dysi)
запад
(zapad)












Warfare/weapons




sword
Schwert
zwaard
svärd
gladius
σπαθί
(spathi)
меч
(mech)


shield
Schild
schild
sköld
scutum
ασπίδα
(aspida)
щит
(shchit)


helmet
Helm
helm
hjälm
galea
κράνος
(kranos)
шлем
(shlem)


bow
Bogen
boog
båge
arcus
τόξο
(toxo)
лук
(luk)












Communal




king
König
koning
kung
rex
βασιλεύϛ
(basileus)
король
(korol)


knight*
Knecht
knecht
knekt
servitus
υπηρέτης
(ypiretis)
слуга
(sluga)


thing
Ding
ding
ting
res
πράγμα
(pragma)
вещь
(veshch)











hmm
about marine words

Greek sea als αλς-αλος also salt αλς-αλατος I see connection

ship, ok there is not but there is a word sκαφη-σκαφος a small boat like a pit. (skaf -schif - ship)
original word comes from virb σκαπτω (dig) but when in sol is ekskafi but when in log of wood is skafi σκαφη, consider that as a canoe, main use was for laundry, but also as a kind of surf board, the original words for ships are
Lembos (small, als+embaino = the one that is safe to enter sea, a als+embark a barka)
akatos (small no carine system due to its shape)
naias ( big a pelasgian word)
ploio plio (big from virb Πλεω flow)
Dromon (fast dromeas = runner)
triiris (τριηρεις - 3 times fast)
etc
a boat that is from one log only that is excavated to take shape of a boat is skafi



the Greco-Thracians that are from black sea name their selfs Strantza-lides
there was a city named like that in front the sea,
I think Varna's first name Strand-za,

sail well 2 words ισαλος isal-os and salos σαλος
ισαλος the line of how the ship is in the water, (how good a ship can sail)
salos is the strange weather, the effects of storm, the big waves the move the ship uncontroled,
σαλεμενη θαλασσα = mad sea = a sea that has waves but no bad weather (waves can go away from storm center)

the ebb and ab-otis I think have connection

east well the Greek word is Εως Eos compare Εως- Ηους Eos-Ius

about sword spathi exist in modern but is wrong means in pocket from old virb ξεσ-πατ-ωνω get out of pocket-package
the original word is machaira μαχαιρα and the older xifei (ξιφος)

the helmet case
well the older in mycenean style helmet were made by calcium and wool,
why cause a copper materil is heavy and warm, and if a haevy thing strikes it it might broke or change shape so harms the head,
so they use a cover by wool and on it they sew many bones or sea shells
the greek word for shell is κελυφος and was really good against arrows,
also the armor alternate word for animals is kelyfos
maybe a connection among shell and helmet via Greek Kelyfos (k-h)

the shield has many names like oplon dipylon aegis, aspis was not the shild exactly but a system of a man who carry a big shield to protect, compare υπ-ασπις-της and the words aspondos ασπονδος - σπονδη spondi


As you see the compare give many words not clear Germanic but IE at least since exist at least in 2 languages,


The thing I can not connect with Modern Meaning but is connected with Clear meaning is the King

in Greek simmilar word is only the gig γιγ so the most possible is the γιγ-ας compare Lydian γυγης Hyges
so the only connection is the Phrygian word Gyges and the Greek Gigantes (giants)

spongetaro
18-11-11, 01:14
- interestingly, the Slavic word for 'helmet' appears to be in turn a loan from Germanic.

Celtic "cingeto" (brave, warrior)also seems to be borrowed from proto germanic "ginxti-z" (to go).
I also found that Sumerian and proto Germanic had a similar word for King, but I'm not sure about that

sparkey
18-11-11, 01:22
The common assumption is that proto-Germanic formed in the Nordic Bronze Age, right? Wouldn't that place the formation of Germanic in a location that had been speaking IE already (provided that all of Corded Ware spoke IE)? It's true that Germanic peoples seem to have a good amount of pre-IE lineages in their DNA, but even so, it seems like pre-IE contributions to proto-Germanic would have been a substratum of a substratum.

Considering that the R1b (U106) that apparently was the final influence on proto-Germanic is a cousin to that of the Italo-Celts, and the R1a is a cousin to that of the Balto-Slavs... maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum. Does that match the general understanding?

Taranis
18-11-11, 01:38
Celtic "cingeto" (brave, warrior)also seems to be borrowed from proto germanic "ginxti-z" (to go).
I also found that Sumerian and proto Germanic had a similar word for King, but I'm not sure about that

I'm not sure about that. I agree that the Celtic word 'cingeto-' poses a problem, however. The most obvious choice would be (in my opinion) the PIE root *g´hengh- (to step, to march), which is found in German 'gang' (go, walk), Lithuanian 'žingsnis' (step). If this is case, we can think of the Celtic word originally meaning "foot soldier".

The problem is that we would expect *g´hengh- to yield something like "gingeto-'. Since we don't see this, one can speculate if the word is borrowed from elsewhere. It does not fit Germanic, in my opinion, especially if you consider that the First Germanic Sound Shift occured at a time when the Celtic languages were already differentiated.


The common assumption is that proto-Germanic formed in the Nordic Bronze Age, right? Wouldn't that place the formation of Germanic in a location that had been speaking IE already (provided that all of Corded Ware spoke IE)? It's true that Germanic peoples seem to have a good amount of pre-IE lineages in their DNA, but even so, it seems like pre-IE contributions to proto-Germanic would have been a substratum of a substratum.

Considering that the R1b (U106) that apparently was the final influence on proto-Germanic is a cousin to that of the Italo-Celts, and the R1a is a cousin to that of the Balto-Slavs... maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum. Does that match the general understanding?

Broadly, yeah. There is a very ancient connection between Germanic and Balto-Slavic (which predates the Centum-Satem split), but in regard for later development, Germanic has more commonalities with the Celtic and Italic languages.

spongetaro
18-11-11, 01:53
Considering that the R1b (U106) that apparently was the final influence on proto-Germanic is a cousin to that of the Italo-Celts, and the R1a is a cousin to that of the Balto-Slavs... maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum. Does that match the general understanding?

There is also the possibility that U106 was already in Europe during the Corded Ware, in its western part

spongetaro
18-11-11, 01:57
maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum.

That para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum in the corded ware area would be Hans Krahe's Old European area

Yetos
18-11-11, 02:08
I'm not sure about that. I agree that the Celtic word 'cingeto-' poses a problem, however. The most obvious choice would be (in my opinion) the PIE root *g´hengh- (to step, to march), which is found in German 'gang' (go, walk), Lithuanian 'žingsnis' (step). If this is case, we can think of the Celtic word originally meaning "foot soldier".

how about to compare it with giant Γιγας-Γιγαντος

or the Dacian word Konka-konga = Holy (gog??)

Maciamo
18-11-11, 13:54
There are plenty of words in English (from Anglo-Saxon ?) with apparently non-IE origins too.

Here are a few examples among animal names : bird, dog, horse, pig...

Taranis
18-11-11, 14:37
There are plenty of words in English (from Anglo-Saxon ?) with apparently non-IE origins too.

Here are a few examples among animal names : bird, dog, horse, pig...

I agree that all of those have no IE etymology, except possibly 'horse'. It can potentially be derived from PIE *k´ers, and if that is the case, it's a cognate with Latin 'cursus', which in turn found it's way into English as 'course'.

Yetos
18-11-11, 20:25
I still do not understand you guys


Bird compare it with Greek πτιλα πτιρα πυτιρα πτερυγα all mean feathers wings

dog Thracian Δακος Greek virb δαγκωνω Bite, root is Dag
also the old medicine word for bites is Δηγμα
etc

as I already posted above many of these words are IE

Taranis
18-11-11, 20:59
I still do not understand you guys


Bird compare it with Greek πτιλα πτιρα πυτιρα πτερυγα all mean feathers wings

That's not possible, because Greek 'p' does not correspond with Germanic 'b'. It would have to be 'φ' in Greek.


dog Thracian Δακος Greek virb δαγκωνω Bite, root is Dag
also the old medicine word for bites is Δηγμα
etc

Likewise, Greek *d would generally correspond to *t in Germanic. Any Greek cognate would have 'θ' in it.


as I already posted above many of these words are IE

Yes, absolutely. But the cognates you propose simply do not work out, I'm afraid.

Yetos
19-11-11, 00:50
That's not possible, because Greek 'p' does not correspond with Germanic 'b'. It would have to be 'φ' in Greek.



Likewise, Greek *d would generally correspond to *t in Germanic. Any Greek cognate would have 'θ' in it.



Yes, absolutely. But the cognates you propose simply do not work out, I'm afraid.

Shot to the point Taranis

Germanic Bird
Ancient Greek πτιλα πτιρα πυτιλα πυτιρα (ionic-doric forms) πτερα πτερυγιο
BUT MODERN GREEK Φτερα φτερουγα
so indeed b connects to φ !!!!!!!

now about dog and δαγκ (thag as th in they)
just remember that at least in English the th has 2 sounds one the th as in they (Δ) and the other is as thou or as thomas (th is θ)
so a clear aspiration or a standard transformation is not clear, at least in English part of Germanic
th = θ ορ Δ

I think you have your wanted aspirations,
besides it depends on which Greek we take as standard and which Germanic
we take Homeric Attic Ionian Doric Makedonian Hellenistic modern etc
also we take the Hannover's German, the Bavarian the saxon's ,the gothic or another form,

so it is more possible at least for me
that root δαγκ-dag is more connected with dog
than the virb Dig which at least do not exist in Greek ( I do not know in any other IE)

besides you know that Greek have many anomalies like lose or enter letters
and compare with virb εγειρω noun εγερσις english raise or rise
( loses i and gets an s, in English past is rose) than with english erase

besides οδοντας - οδοντος -> tooth but the doctor is dentist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so in tooth we see clearly the transformations but in Dentist or Dental?

a good example of my words is the bellow

Πους- ποδος becomes foot so π -> φ
but
πυξ - πυγμης πυγμαχια becomes box-boxing
πυθμην-πυθμενος becomes Bottom

so here π -> Β !!!!!!

yes πυτλα-πυτιρα-πτιλα-πτιρα becomes feathers
why not πτερ-υξ -> bird ?? if Π can go B pter -> bert-> bird??
compare greek πτη-νο
root in greek is πετε -> πετερ-υξ
πετε-ινο - πετεινο-> πτηνο
πετε-ω ->πετω = fly
the distance from fly to wing to bird to feathers is big comparing the
πετεω -πεταω-πετω πτερυξ and πτηνο and πιτυλα-πτιλα

leaving out the wing the rest has a common theme
so they are IE
consider that Πτερυξ in modern greek follows the nova roma thracian idiom and is φτερο

Asturrulumbo
19-11-11, 09:57
There are plenty of words in English (from Anglo-Saxon ?) with apparently non-IE origins too.

Here are a few examples among animal names : bird, dog, horse, pig...
My best guess for bird, dog, and pig is that their origin is onomatopoeic/expressive...

Maciamo
29-11-11, 10:38
Here are a few more Germanic words with no cognates in other IE languages.

Animals

boar
chick, chicken
eel
lamb
rabbit
sheep
toad

(in addition to bird, dog, horse and pig already mentioned)

Body parts

back
body
bone
brain
cheek
finger
leg
liver
neck
shoulder
skull
toe

Others

all
beacon
broad
child
dim
dream
drink
drive
dwarf
flee
gray
ground
oak
paddock
quake
rain
roof
scathe
shoe
soul
steel
swallow
tin
top
trend

Yetos
29-11-11, 16:35
Here are a few more Germanic words with no cognates in other IE languages.

Animals

boar
chick, chicken
eel
lamb
rabbit
sheep
toad

(in addition to bird, dog, horse and pig already mentioned)

Body parts

back
body
bone
brain
cheek
finger
leg
liver
neck
shoulder
skull
toe

Others

all
beacon
broad
child
dim
dream
drink
drive
dwarf
flee
gray
ground
oak
paddock
quake
rain
roof
scathe
shoe
soul
steel
swallow
tin
top
trend


bird eel all roof top are not german but wider ID

compare

πτερ-υξ - bird ελλυ-ες - eel ολ-ος - all οροφ-η - roof

top is connected with up compare επα-νω up <-> επαν-
also back goes with οπισθεν οπισ π<->b σ<->s or c like opis->obic -> back
also flee might have a PIE connection thrugh ψυλλος = πσυλλ π->φ φσυλλ -> φλλυ -?φλη ->flee
also beacon might have with παις π->b σ->s.c ->baic->beac-on

I think that the bellow words are not German but IE since we find simmilar roots in 2 IE languages

bird eel all roof top back flee beacon

another interesting case is also the shoulder and skull
in the anatomy the front bone of shoulder is ΚΛΕΙΔΑ and head is kefalli κεφαλλη
kleida k->c->sh
kefalli -> kaell ->skull
although I believe the above must be compared with another IE language also

Taranis
05-12-11, 19:17
Maciamo, I've taken the list you posted and searched for some etymologies. Most of the words have PIE etymologies or cognates in other IE languages, but there's a few words which are definitely non IE, marked bold. For those that are marked with a question mark, I haven't found anything (yet):

Animals


boar - uncertain, but German "Eber" has a cognate with Latin "Aper"
chick, chicken - possible
eel - ?
lamb - possible, otherwise *el ('red')
rabbit - ?
sheep - ?
toad - ?


(in addition to bird, dog, horse and pig already mentioned)


Body parts


back - ?
body - ?
bone - from PIE *bhei- (to hit, to strike)
brain - ?
cheek - ?
finger - from PIE *penkwe (five)
leg - unclear, but from an earlier *lek-
liver - from *jekwr-?: Latin 'iecur', Lithuanian 'jaknos'
neck - ?
shoulder - possibly from PIE *skel- (to owe, to be guilty, compare German "Schulden" vs. "schultern")
skull - ?
toe - from PIE *deik´ (compare German "Zehe", which requires and earlier *teih)


Others


all - from PEI *al(io)- "the other", compare Latin 'alios', Gaulish 'allos'
beacon - from PIE *bhā- (to shine, glister), compare Greek 'Phaeton'
broad - Proto-Germanic *braidaz, uncertain origin
child - PIE *gel- (to curl, to form), compare Latin "globus", Russian "glaz" (orb)
dim - from PIE *dhem- (to blow, compare Sanskrit 'dhamati')
dream - from PIE *dreugh (to harm, to deceive)
drink - unclear, but requires an earlier *dhreg
drive - unclear, but requires an earlier *dhreibh
dwarf - unclear, but requires an earlier *dhwergh
flee - from PIE *pleu- (to run, to flow)
gray - from PIE *g´her- (to shine, to glisten)
ground - from PIE *ghren - (to grind, to rub)
oak - unclear, but requires an earlier *aig- (or more likely *aig´?), maybe related with Latvian 'ozols', Lithuanian 'azuolas'
paddock - compare German 'Pferch', from Proto-Germanic *parrukaz?, possibly from PIE *(s)per, but not originally Germanic.
quake - unclear, but requires an earlier *gwog- (PIE?)
rain - unclear, but compare German 'regen' and Latin 'rigare' (to wash)
roof - unclear, but the ancient form (Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse 'hrof') requires an earlier *krap-
scathe - compare Greek "askētēs"
shoe - PIE *(s)keu- (to wrap, to hide)
soul - ?
steel - from PIE *stak- ("to stand, to resist" - cf. Sanskrit "stakati")
swallow - ?
tin - yes, absolutely non-IE
top - from PIE *dei? (to share, to divide)
trend - ?

Dagne
05-12-11, 22:07
broad - Proto-Germanic *braidaz, uncertain origin
Lith. brada - ford

Maciamo
06-12-11, 00:59
More words :

begin
berry
blond
key
ice
leek
luck
oat
race (as in car race)
reed
shake
shall
shy
skirmish
threshold

spongetaro
06-12-11, 08:55
More words :

acorn
begin
blond



"blond"? Is it a proof that northern European were already blond before the IE

Maciamo
06-12-11, 11:14
"blond"? Is it a proof that northern European were already blond before the IE

If there is no related word in IE languages, then probably. But the etymology of blond isn't very clear, except that it comes from Frankish blund. The old English blonden-feax means "grey-haired". Ultimately it might have been used to describe any light hair (blond or grey).

It wouldn't be very surprising that blond hair originated in northern Europe since blond hair is most common in areas with the highest frequency of Y-haplogroup I1. It's possible that I1 was already present in Poland in the Mesolithic (notably I1b and I1-P). I would think that blond hair spread through North European maternal lineages (U4 and U5) from Scandinavia, North Germany and Poland to Eastern Europe, probably before the Corded Ware Culture (U4 and U5 were found all over Europe in Mesolithic samples). The Indo-Europeans (especially the northern R1a branch, originally from the Forest-Steppe around North Ukraine and Belarus) would have spread blond genes with them as far as Mongolia and India.

spongetaro
06-12-11, 11:35
If there is no related word in IE languages, then probably. But the etymology of blond isn't very clear, except that it comes from Frankish blund. The old English blonden-feax means "grey-haired". Ultimately it might have been used to describe any light hair (blond or grey).

It wouldn't be very surprising that blond hair originated in northern Europe since blond hair is most common in areas with the highest frequency of Y-haplogroup I1. It's possible that I1 was already present in Poland in the Mesolithic (notably I1b and I1-P). I would think that blond hair spread through North European maternal lineages (U4 and U5) from Scandinavia, North Germany and Poland to Eastern Europe, probably before the Corded Ware Culture (U4 and U5 were found all over Europe in Mesolithic samples). The Indo-Europeans (especially the northern R1a branch, originally from the Forest-Steppe around North Ukraine and Belarus) would have spread blond genes with them as far as Mongolia and India.

My guess is that the mutation for blondism occured in some subclades of U4 and U5 in Northern Europe, hence its absence in southern european (who also have U4 and U5).
I'm not sure that it is correlated with I1 since the Tarim mummies were blonde but tested R1a.

Taranis
06-12-11, 13:44
I definitely am inclined to think that blond hair is more likely to be tied with the original Indo-Europeans than with the aboriginal peoples of northern Europe, and that the modern-day high frequency is a result of a founder effect. The Tocharians are known to have been blond, not only from the Tarim Basin mummies, but also from portrayals, for instance, in Chinese sources (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/QizilDonors.jpg). Another case would be the high occurence of blond hair amongst the Nuristani people in Afghanistan (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Girl_in_a_Kabul_orphanage%2C_01-07-2002.jpg), who also frequently sport lighter hair colors. At this point, you have to consider that the Nuristani language constitutes in fact the third, separate branch of the Indo-Iranic languages.

To get back to the linguistic issue, in general the unique feature of the Germanic languages is that in comparison to Proto-Indo-European (and indeed most other IE languages), sounds are shifted in Germanic. This is primarily according to Grimm's Law:

*p > *f (Latin "pater" vs. English "father")
*t > *θ
*k > *h (Latin "centum" vs. English "hundred")
*kw > *hw (Latin "quod" vs. English "what")

*b > *p
*d > *t
*g > *k
*gw > *kw

*bh > *b
*dh > *d
*gh > *g
*gwh > *gw

In addition, there's another law at work (Verner's Law) which regards the sounds *p, *t, *k, *kw ending up voiced (*β, *ð, *ɣ, *ɣw) if they are following an unstressed syllable.

Regarding the word "blond", it hence requires an earlier *bhlendh. In any case, there's possible cognates in Slavic, meaning "pale", for example:
Bulgarian "bled", Czech "bledý", Polish "blady", Russian "blednyĭ"

There is also Lithuanian "blandus" (meaning "dim", "foggy", "dull").

My opinion is that the root word is very well of PIE origin, but the meaning "blond" is uniquely Germanic.

spongetaro
06-12-11, 15:50
I definitely am inclined to think that blond hair is more likely to be tied with the original Indo-Europeans than with the aboriginal peoples of northern Europe, and that the modern-day high frequency is a result of a founder effect.

Well its hard to say. I can also see a correlation with Finnic speaking people and N1c1 haplogroup

spongetaro
06-12-11, 15:54
To get back to the linguistic issue, in general the unique feature of the Germanic languages is that in comparison to Proto-Indo-European (and indeed most other IE languages), sounds are shifted in Germanic. This is primarily according to Grimm's Law:

*p > *f (Latin "pater" vs. English "father")
*t > *θ
*k > *h (Latin "centum" vs. English "hundred")
*kw > *hw (Latin "quod" vs. English "what")

*b > *p
*d > *t
*g > *k
*gw > *kw

*bh > *b
*dh > *d
*gh > *g
*gwh > *gw

In addition, there's another law at work (Verner's Law) which regards the sounds *p, *t, *k, *kw ending up voiced (*β, *ð, *ɣ, *ɣw) if they are following an unstressed syllable.

I'm totally ignorant in Lingiustic but in what way the Grimm's law does differ from the armenian sounds shift or the other lanuage sounds shifts (P and Q celtic...)?

Maciamo
06-12-11, 17:25
I have started a list of old Germanic words of non-Indo-European origin (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml). Feel free to comment or suggest new words. I am planning to add the PIE word in the right column when I have time to look them up.

Maciamo
06-12-11, 17:39
My guess is that the mutation for blondism occured in some subclades of U4 and U5 in Northern Europe, hence its absence in southern european (who also have U4 and U5).
I'm not sure that it is correlated with I1 since the Tarim mummies were blonde but tested R1a.

It's the wrong way to look at it. Male lineages get replaced. Female lineages tend to stay. If U4 and U5 were found at relatively high frequencies among the Indo-Europeans (probably since U4 and U5 are found in all places in Asia settled by the Indo-Europeans), then it is likely that U4 and U5 women were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans before their expansion. My guess is that Mesolithic Northern Europeans had the genes for blond hair and blue eyes, at least all the way from Scandinavia to Ukraine. Either the male lineages were a blend of (pre-)I1 and R1a, or they were all I1 and R1a came later and replaced I1 in Eastern Europe. In any case I believe that R1a did not move to the area immediately north of the Black Sea until the Catacomb or Timber-grave cultures (2500-1500 BCE). Before that they were confined to the forest-steppe in the northern half of Ukraine (corresponding to the Neolithic Bug-Dniester Culture => see map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml)). They were neighbours of I1 people who probably inhabited modern Poland and Baltic countries at the time. In any case, all the Baltic region (both shores including Scandinavia) were taken over by R1a people during the Corded Ware Culture. It's very possible that I1 was originally much more widespread over Northeast Europe, just like I2 used to be far more common in Western and Southern Europe, before being replaced by R1b.

Maciamo
06-12-11, 17:45
I definitely am inclined to think that blond hair is more likely to be tied with the original Indo-Europeans than with the aboriginal peoples of northern Europe, and that the modern-day high frequency is a result of a founder effect. The Tocharians are known to have been blond, not only from the Tarim Basin mummies...

The Tocharians, Central Asians and Indo-Aryans were an offshoot of the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture, which was itself an extension of the Corded Ware Culture, which originated in the Bug-Dniester Culture in northern Ukraine 7000 years ago. As I explained in the above post, the gene for blondism could very well have been absorbed from the Baltic neighbours several millennia before the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture.

spongetaro
06-12-11, 18:06
Either the male lineages were a blend of (pre-)I1 and R1a, or they were all I1 and R1a came later and replaced I1 in Eastern Europe.

I believe that R1a is in Central and Eastern Europe (and in some parts of Western Europe like Cantabria and Massif central) since the Mesolithic at least. Klyosov hypothesis is that Yamnaya people only moves east to west and brought R1b to western Europe while most of the Asian R1a had its origin in the Corded ware.

spongetaro
06-12-11, 18:09
The Tocharians, Central Asians and Indo-Aryans were an offshoot of the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture, which was itself an extension of the Corded Ware Culture, which originated in the Bug-Dniester Culture in northern Ukraine 7000 years ago. As I explained in the above post, the gene for blondism could very well have been absorbed from the Baltic neighbours several millennia before the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture.

Tocharians are a specific case. Their language is closer to the Anatolian and Italo Celtic branches than to Indo Iranic. It is possible that they moved directly from the PIE homeland and very early.

Taranis
06-12-11, 21:32
I'm totally ignorant in Lingiustic but in what way the Grimm's law does differ from the armenian sounds shift or the other lanuage sounds shifts (P and Q celtic...)?

Well, Armenian is significant in so far as that we have a comparable "across-the-board" if you will sound shift, but it's not the same. To give you an idea:

PIE - Germanic - Armenian:

*t - *θ - *tʰ
*p - *f - *h
*k - *h - *kʰ
*kw - *hw - *kʰ


*d - *t - *t
*b - *p - *p
*g _ *k - *k
*gw - *kw - *k


*dh - *d - *d
*bh - *b - *b
*gh - *g - *g
*gwh - *gw - *g


Also note that because Germanic is Centum, and Armenian is Satem, this can be also seen here:


*k´ - *h - *s
*g´ - *k - *ts
*g´h - *g - *ds

What is a matter of dispute with the Germanic languages is not that Grimm's Law happened, but when it happened. The Traditionalists place it to circa 500 BC, based mainly on the idea that the Classical Greek word "Kannabis" was borrowed into Proto-Germanic, where it would have yielded *hannapiz (hence English "hemp").

A more modern approach is the idea that the First Germanic Sound Shift occured very late, only around the 1st century BC to AD, and that it assumes that a late form of what has been dubbed "Pre-Germanic" (more appropriately, "Proto-Germanic before the First Sound Shift") was spoken as late as the 2nd century BC. One aspect, which I already discussed before in other threads is that tribal names like "Cimbri" and "Teutones" recorded in the 2nd century BC would variably have to be Celtic or Germanic in etymology if the sound shift occured earlier or later. What everybody can agree on is that by the time of Tacitus, the sound shift is completed.

In the context of that substrate hypothesis (which argues that the share of non-IE words in Germanic is substantial) is that Grimm's Law occured much earlier, probably when the suspected non-Indo-European peoples adopted the Indo-European language. Note however that basically all Celtic loanwords (*isarnon, *markos, *rigs, etc.) into Proto-Germanic entered the language before Grimm's Law applied.


I have started a list of old Germanic words of non-Indo-European origin (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml). Feel free to comment or suggest new words. I am planning to add the PIE word in the right column when I have time to look them up.

I definitely appreciate your efforts, but I'm inclined to considerably disagree here with a number of words in the list, some which are also found in the lists I posted. Where I do see another problem is that you mention Feist 1932. There's a reason that the hypothesis keeps popping up only rarely nowadays in discussions, and that is that many of the words that Feist or Hawking suggested have been proven in the meantime to actually have PIE etymologies.

My opinion is that there clearly are non-IE words found in Germanic which are not found elsewhere, but I am sceptical if this justifies the special treatment of Germanic (and to what degree?) amongst the Indo-European languages.


Tocharians are a specific case. Their language is closer to the Anatolian and Italo Celtic branches than to Indo Iranic. It is possible that they moved directly from the PIE homeland and very early.

The position of Tocharian, both geographically and within Indo-European is indeed peculiar. Some people, notably Waktins 1998, placed Tocharian closest with Italo-Celtic. If this is indeed the case, we would expect that the Tocharians indeed migrated very far. Alternatively, we can speculate if Tocharian was merely the first, or one of the first (see Anatolian), branches of Indo-European to diverge.

LeBrok
06-12-11, 22:03
I would say that very light skin and light hair was pretty much in same place in Europe from end of last Ice Age. Before that if blond existed it must have been located more south, possibly around black see, Balkans, or north Mediterranean coast.
I think so, because I believe it is strongly correlated to climate condition. You see, the blond genes (especially eyes) are recessive, so why would they (blond) survive in spite of all the peoples moving through the area, through at least 10 thousand years? The most likely reason is greater survival chance for blonds in this region, and always overpopulating darker skin folks. Climate is the same reason why blond never become dominant in other climatic zones, in face of huge tribal dispersion with dominant blond characteristics. Without any other known factors, I could narrow it down to higher Vitamin D3 production - versus skin cancer predisposition, generally speaking health.
What would be the ideal climatic zone for blond? From top of my head I would say:
- latitude higher than 40deg, with sweet spot around 55 deg.
- mostly cloudy, moderate climate

I think we can compare this situation to R1b enclaves in sub Saharan Africa. We know that when R1b arrived there few thousand years ago they were on white side of skin color. Now they are all black, not even few whites, from these migrations, survived.
That's how strong environmental forcing is in this regard.

Going back to Europe. Where the original blonds R1a or I? I would like to know too. Probably I, but R1a might have been the first blond during Ice Age if they lived around Black Sea and then carried blond north after ice age. Being mostly autosomal in nature, blond (after creation) stayed in right climatic zone regardless of maternal or paternal dna, and big migrations of people.

spongetaro
06-12-11, 22:48
The position of Tocharian, both geographically and within Indo-European is indeed peculiar. Some people, notably Waktins 1998, placed Tocharian closest with Italo-Celtic. If this is indeed the case, we would expect that the Tocharians indeed migrated very far. Alternatively, we can speculate if Tocharian was merely the first, or one of the first (see Anatolian), branches of Indo-European to diverge.

By the way, the tarim mummies had Tartan

Maciamo
09-12-11, 00:43
More words :

buy
dam
dear
gate
idle
keg
lane
lark
mood
narrow
pack
path
steal
steam
swell
weed
womb
wonder

Taranis
09-12-11, 13:26
There's two words in your list here (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml) which need to be removed/modified:

"silver" has a cognate in Baltic and Slavic:
- Latvian "sudabra" Lithuanian "sidabras"
- Polish "srebrny", Russian "Serebro"
(it's not uniquely Germanic, but it's not found anywhere else)

"all" is clearly Proto-Indo-European, even if it has a different meaning in Germanic:
- Celtic (Gaulish "allo-" 'the second, the other'), Old Irish "Aile", Welsh "Ail")
- Latin "alius" (the other)
- Greek "allos" (the other)
- Armenian "ayl"
- Sanskrit "aríḥ" (stranger)
- Tocharian "alyak" (other)

Maciamo
09-12-11, 14:19
There's two words in your list here (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml) which need to be removed/modified:

"silver" has a cognate in Baltic and Slavic:
- Latvian "sudabra" Lithuanian "sidabras"
- Polish "srebrny", Russian "Serebro"
(it's not uniquely Germanic, but it's not found anywhere else)

"all" is clearly Proto-Indo-European, even if it has a different meaning in Germanic:
- Celtic (Gaulish "allo-" 'the second, the other'), Old Irish "Aile", Welsh "Ail")
- Latin "alius" (the other)
- Greek "allos" (the other)
- Armenian "ayl"
- Sanskrit "aríḥ" (stranger)
- Tocharian "alyak" (other)

Ok for "all", but silver is found only in Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Silver was known before the time of the PIE expansion, so the PIE word should be the same in all branches of IE languages. It is actually the case for Italo-Celtic (Latin argentum, Old Irish argat, Breton arc'hant) Indo-Iranian (Avestan erezata-, Old Persian ardata-, Sanskrit arjuna), Armenian (arcat), and perhaps other extinct languages too. So in this case I would rather postulate for a common non-IE origin for Germanic and Balto-Slavic (perhaps from the indigenous North European I1 people, which wouldn't be surprising considering the high natural occurrence of silver in Sweden and Poland).

Taranis
09-12-11, 14:35
Ok for "all", but silver is found only in Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Silver was known before the time of the PIE expansion, so the PIE word should be the same in all branches of IE languages. It is actually the case for Italo-Celtic (Latin argentum, Old Irish argat, Breton arc'hant) Indo-Iranian (Avestan erezata-, Old Persian ardata-, Sanskrit arjuna), Armenian (arcat), and perhaps other extinct languages too. So in this case I would rather postulate for a common non-IE origin for Germanic and Balto-Slavic (perhaps from the indigenous North European I1 people, which wouldn't be surprising considering the high natural occurrence of silver in Sweden and Poland).

I absolutely agree on both accounts. My point merely was that the word "silver" isn't uniquely Germanic, even though I agree it's probably not of IE origin. There are two issues which should be pointed out:

The Finnic languages have their own word for silver (Estonian "hõbe", Finnish "hopea"), but they borrowed an Indo-European word for gold.

Furthermore, some people have speculated if the Basque for silver ("zilar") is related in any ways to the Germanic-Balto-Slavic word. I was quite sceptical of this, but it's possible due to the phenomenon of Haplology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplology). If the words are indeed related, the Pre-Basque form would have been *zilabar.

Maciamo
09-12-11, 15:40
Furthermore, some people have speculated if the Basque for silver ("zilar") is related in any ways to the Germanic-Balto-Slavic word. I was quite sceptical of this, but it's possible due to the phenomenon of Haplology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplology). If the words are indeed related, the Pre-Basque form would have been *zilabar.

That's very interesting. I didn't know this Basque word but it does sound related to the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words. As silver was used as a currency for (pan-European) trade it wouldn't be surprising if the same word was used in most of Europe during the Neolithic, whatever its origin.

Goga
09-12-11, 19:53
Ok for "all", but silver is found only in Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Silver was known before the time of the PIE expansion, so the PIE word should be the same in all branches of IE languages. It is actually the case for Italo-Celtic (Latin argentum, Old Irish argat, Breton arc'hant) Indo-Iranian (Avestan erezata-, Old Persian ardata-, Sanskrit arjuna), Armenian (arcat), and perhaps other extinct languages too. So in this case I would rather postulate for a common non-IE origin for Germanic and Balto-Slavic (perhaps from the indigenous North European I1 people, which wouldn't be surprising considering the high natural occurrence of silver in Sweden and Poland).
Silver in Kurdish is "ziv".

Maciamo
10-12-11, 00:17
Silver in Kurdish is "ziv".

That's also similar to the Northeast European and Basque term. As other Iranian languages use the PIE word, I would guess that Kurdish salvaged an indigenous word to West Asia. I also found out that the Akkadian word for silver was sarpu, related to sarapu "to refine, smelt", which is really close to the Slavic words (e.g. serebo in Russian). The Neolithic origin of silver is thus further reinforced.

Taranis
10-12-11, 00:54
That's also similar to the Northeast European and Basque term. As other Iranian languages use the PIE word, I would guess that Kurdish salvaged an indigenous word to West Asia. I also found out that the Akkadian word for silver was sarpu, related to sarapu "to refine, smelt", which is really close to the Slavic words (e.g. serebo in Russian). The Neolithic origin of silver is thus further reinforced.

I'm not sure regarding the Kurdish word, but regarding Akkadian, the language also possessed another word for silver, "kaspu". A cognate of this word can be found in other Semitic languages, notably Aramic and Hebrew (though not Arabic), where it's "כסף" ("kessef"). While we are at it, the Albanian word for silver, 'argjend' must be a loan from Latin. Since the PIE root word is *arg´- and not *arg-, the expected native Albanian word would be something akin to *arð- (which would be written as "ardh-").

Goga
10-12-11, 01:43
That's also similar to the Northeast European and Basque term. As other Iranian languages use the PIE word, I would guess that Kurdish salvaged an indigenous word to West Asia. I also found out that the Akkadian word for silver was sarpu, related to sarapu "to refine, smelt", which is really close to the Slavic words (e.g. serebo in Russian). The Neolithic origin of silver is thus further reinforced.Ok, but like Taranis above me I'm not sure about the origin of Kurdish 'ziv'.

Btw silver in Russian is 'serebRo' (with 'r').

Yetos
01-02-12, 02:13
I was wondering about the word guard guardian etc

comparing with Greek PIE not Hellenic it might cognate with word Surd = quardians
Sardeis etc, Slavic Kara etc

comparing with Scand/an mythology we find the word Asgaard,
Asgaard might cognate with Turkic Asker (army)

I choose the post because it might be not IE word, the guardian

Taranis
01-02-12, 02:39
I was wondering about the word guard guardian etc

comparing with Greek PIE not Hellenic it might cognate with word Surd = quardians
Sardeis etc, Slavic Kara etc

I'm not sure but, I'm pretty certain that "guard" and "surd" have different etymologies. I'll get back to this.


comparing with Scand/an mythology we find the word Asgaard,
Asgaard might cognate with Turkic Asker (army)

I choose the post because it might be not IE word, the guardian

The word "asgard" is firmly Indo-European. It is a compound of "As-" (as in "Aesir", the gods, compare with the Hindu "Asuras") and "-g(h)ard(h)" ("enclosure" as in English "garden", Russian "город" "gorod", meaning "city", and Hindi "घर" "ghara", meaning "house").

Sennevini
01-02-12, 16:16
English "guard" is from french "garde" from Frankish *wardo-, West-Germanic *wardo-, from PIE *wer- "to guard, look out for" (see Latin "vereri" - to be worried", Greek "horaoo" - to look).
English "guardian" is from french "gardien" from Frankisch *warding-, "the guarding one" also from *wardo- etc.
Please search better for a word before posting, for example in the Online Etymology Dictionary (English), or etymologiebank (Dutch).