PDA

View Full Version : Who overlaps with the Iberians?



oreo_cookie
27-11-11, 22:29
Spanish and Portuguese collectively in this one.

Canek
29-11-11, 15:23
North Africa. Moroocans and spanish are genetically brothers. Regards.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-11-11, 17:32
People should not consider indigenous Canarians as part of the equation. Clearly, they are far different phenotypically and genetically from mainland Iberians. Native Canarians, and to a considerably lesser extent, Azoreans and Madeirans, need to be treated separately from peninsular population groups. In any case, the biggest phenotypic overlap seems to be with the French (primarily southeastern and southwestern) and Northern Italians.

Of course, there are agenda motivated odd-balls who will do just about anything to propagate the inane myth that Iberians are similar to North Africans. Intensely laughable.:laughing:

sparkey
29-11-11, 19:09
Welcome back Canek.

I voted Italians. I think the Sicilian phenotype is further away from Iberians than most other Italians, at least in my experience. Some French can be close, but Northern French are far enough away that I didn't vote for them.

This doesn't need to be a genetic debate, and genetics don't always match phenotypes, but Cambrius is more correct here than Canek, from what I've seen.

Knovas
29-11-11, 19:39
In my opinion French are the closest. Then, Italians, English and Irish show a lot of similarities too.

A. Tamar Chabadi
29-11-11, 21:47
I voted...Irish, British, French, and Italian...I voted for Italian because it really should be the North Italians.

The reason is found in the following image showing ADMIXTURE results at K=11

5385

Knovas
29-11-11, 22:03
There was a K=12 version of this analysis, in my opinion slightly better. Anyways, North Italians and Iberians usually show similarities in admixture analysis and clustering experiments. It's the best match in all Southern Europe.

Carlos
30-11-11, 00:23
As in the rest of polls I think that to groso way everyone has his own idiosyncrasy, fenotípica and each of the exhibitions only is even represented and seemed to her herself, but good it is necessary to give a result.

As Spain is a very tourist country I have to say that more than the Spanish they should fit here or there, if I have known Frenchmen, Englishmen, Irishes, Italians, Portugueses who seemed Spanish. I believe that in case of Spain there would be what to say: those who fit in Spain?, in totalities nobody would be, but individually there would be many cases.

Many people believe that it is with the Italians with whom more similar we have and it is not like that, Italian has a more refined finished end, everything is necessary to recognize it. We are not even so thin of skin as the Italians of the north not so exotic as the Italians of the south.

I have seen the people of the British Isles or France that without having opened the mouth have made me believe that they are Spanish, not all, of course.

I have two woman clients immigrants that one is English and another German and they think the same.

A. Tamar Chabadi
30-11-11, 03:33
Hi, Knovas!

The K=12 analysis was uninformative...the K=11 ADMIXTURE results were the most informative. At K=12 uninformative groups start to form.

Knovas
30-11-11, 13:30
I don't see why A. Tamar. Both K=11 and K=12 were quite similar, with the only difference that K=12 showed a North Asian cluster, which was an improve in detecting some Asian alleles. Anyways, I wrote several times to Dienekes' for running new raw data's (people who wasn't able to participate) and he said no. The reason was he thinks generating isolated clusters (Basque and Sardinian) does not tell information about the population's composition, just how people is more or less related to them.

What it's true, is that at K=12 the Sub-Saharan cluster behaved strange sometimes.

Then, although I wanted to know my scores, it seems nothing will come out in regards for this.

Kardu
30-11-11, 14:59
Probably some French, some Italians and some Greek. To a lesser degree some British, Irish and Germans.

oreo_cookie
30-11-11, 20:56
Do you guys think there is a noticeable phenotypic difference between Spaniards and Portuguese?

Kardu
30-11-11, 22:42
Do you guys think there is a noticeable phenotypic difference between Spaniards and Portuguese?To my observation while quite some Portuguese looks like Spaniards they also have some sub-phenotype which is only theirs:)

Knovas
30-11-11, 23:06
Northern Portuguese are practically the same as Galicians. And the rest are very similar to the main Spaniards in average.

Cambrius (The Red)
01-12-11, 01:50
@ Oreo_Cookie

There is a slight bit more Cro-Magnon and Paleo-Atlantid in the Portuguese.

Cambrius (The Red)
01-12-11, 01:53
Northern Portuguese are practically the same as Galicians. And the rest are very similar to the main Spaniards in average.

You can't tell Northern Portuguese and Galicians apart. Many Alpine-Atlantids in NW Iberia.

Rinconete
18-12-11, 01:03
I think that the portuguese are some more darker, because they have been more isolated, while Spain has been more open to Europe and the rest of the world. Canek said a real nonsense.

Sybilla
19-12-11, 04:02
I think Italians and Spaniards don't look exactly the same. Italians in my opinion have a more Eastern European vibe in them, due to the fact that Italians are more mixed. In preroman Italy there went Italics (who seem to be derived from the same stock of the Celts), Celts, Greeks, Etruscans; in Middle Age Longobards, Normans, Ostrogothes, Franks, then the French and Spaniards, in the North Austrians and in some regions also Slavs and Albanians. I think Spaniards and Portugueses have an own look that is predominant western European with some berber traits in some cases.

oreo_cookie
07-02-12, 00:37
I think Italians and Spaniards don't look exactly the same. Italians in my opinion have a more Eastern European vibe in them, due to the fact that Italians are more mixed. In preroman Italy there went Italics (who seem to be derived from the same stock of the Celts), Celts, Greeks, Etruscans; in Middle Age Longobards, Normans, Ostrogothes, Franks, then the French and Spaniards, in the North Austrians and in some regions also Slavs and Albanians. I think Spaniards and Portugueses have an own look that is predominant western European with some berber traits in some cases.

I agree. I think this is a fair and reasonable point of view. I will say that with Berber traits in Iberia, they tend to increase somewhat as you go west, i.e. I have seen very few Catalans with any sort of Berber influence, but parts of Portugal and southwestern Spain they are more evident.

Carlos
07-02-12, 01:30
In the remaining threads of the same series are photographs, missing here, why?

Carlos
07-02-12, 01:52
oreo cookie
I have seen very few Catalans with any sort of Berber influence, but parts of Portugal and southwestern Spain they are more evident.

Not at all.

Cambrius (The Red)
07-02-12, 23:23
Six votes for Berbers? LOL! Berbers are genetically distant from Iberians in a huge, huge way. In all autosomal DNA (impacts phenotype substantially) research Iberians cluster with on another and with or between French and Northern Italians. Some people need to educate themselves.

sparkey
08-02-12, 00:57
Six votes for Berbers? LOL! Berbers are genetically distant from Iberians in a huge, huge way. In all autosomal DNA (impacts phenotype substantially) research Iberians cluster with on another and with or between French and Northern Italians. Some people need to educate themselves.

Well, the question of phenotype overlap, although related to the question of autosomal overlap, is more subjective than it is. So if someone sees a Berber and thinks "Iberian," then the autosomal data doesn't directly contradict that. (Of course, you're right about the direct impact of one on the other.)

That said, Berber is an odd answer, anyway. I suspect that it may reflect a typical confirmation bias about the heritage of Iberia. Does anybody seriously look at Zidane and mistake him for a Spaniard? Maybe someone like Ahmed Aboutaleb could be mistaken for a Spaniard, but even that's a stretch.

MOESAN
12-02-12, 23:28
There are variations between individual and regionals Spaniards, a litlle more than among Portugueses - But the differences are far more evident among Italians and italian regions - Italy can not be considered as a whole -
sure among the autosomals someones are envolved into the individual EXTERNAL VISIBLE phenotypes (and collective ones, even if these last are a matter of discussion) but not all the autosomals - some of them are of different DEEPTH (time) in the species derivations and some external phenotypes (and the autosomals conditioning them) can link people when internal* others separate these people - the autosomals studies have to be pursued further.
* phenotype is the result of genotype + others influences and context, and can be the presence or not of a health defect or an organic fonction, not allways a visible trait, I think -
to me at an external point of view genuine North Italians present very often phénotipycal features that link them more to eastern Frenchmen or to Central Europe people than to Iberian as a whole (more bracycephalic, lighter of pigmentation, heavier bodied etc...) even if it is not to hard to find some individuals very close to Iberians: individuals, NOT the means

Carlos
13-02-12, 00:34
MOESAN
There are variations between individual and regionals Spaniards

For we do not notice them. When we go to a meeting, travel, meetings and other Spanish and there are different regions, we asked where are you? by appearance and not hear a regional accent never know what region is this, the other or that.

julia90
14-02-12, 23:29
Southern West French Aquitaine, Camargue etc.., Apparently Northern Italians by genetic, even if going by looks they don't strike me as looking similar to northern italians, i would say also Sardinians because they are south western too, but then again sardinains are quite genetically isolated from all populations.

I guess those Canarians admixed with guanche (which can't be considered genetically Iberians) would overlap with some extreme southern italians or Malteses.

Franco
26-02-12, 03:11
I voted the French, but this means nothing because France is phenotipe-wise very diverse, much more than Spain. You can find from Spanish looking people to other ones who may pass for a Dutch or a Scandinavian. Spaniards are closer to Southern French.

Carlos
05-04-12, 03:46
nº 1 Burgos.
nº2 Madrid.
nº3 Barcelona.
nº4 Madrid (Gipsy)
nº5 Cuenca.
nº6 Islas Canarias.
http://quemedices.diezminutos.es/var/qmd/storage/images/realities/gran_hermano_12_1/berta_la_nueva_expulsada/gh12/932690-1-esl-ES/gh12_galeria_landscape.jpg
nº7 Jerez de La Frontera (Cádiz)
nº8 Alicante
nº9 Valladolid.
nº10 Euskadi.
nº11 Euskadi.
nº12 Zaragoza.
nº13 Huelva (Father Portugal, mother Italia)
nº14 Valencia (Philipines Origen)
nº15 Castilla
nº16 Barcelona.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_rw4kH2l7MA/T3Rxojunm7I/AAAAAAAAADE/WGF-iA0NE-A/s1600/repesca_TL5IMA20120327_0087_6.jpg

Carlos
05-04-12, 04:06
http://www.que.es/archivos/201204/sergio_sindia_n-365xXx80.jpg
Sevilla (both)


http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/QT8YapHb7HckhyJNixLAKw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTMxMDtxPTg1O3c9MzEw/http://l.yimg.com/os/423/2012/01/20/David_142048.jpg
Salamanca.


In these multiple examples can be seen that the Iberians roughly maintain its own identity and it is difficult to overlap them with others, while another may overlap with others, is the same but not the same.

Cambrius (The Red)
06-04-12, 00:25
I pretty much agree. There is some overlap with N. Italians but it's not dramatic.

Franco
06-04-12, 00:47
Do you guys think there is a noticeable phenotypic difference between Spaniards and Portuguese?

Portuguese people tend to be darker than Spaniards and more dolicocephalic.

Wilhelm
08-04-12, 19:49
Gascons, Languedoc, Midi-Pyreneés, some Italians, and that's about it. That's where the most consistent overlap is.

zanipolo
08-04-12, 22:02
Gascons, Languedoc, Midi-Pyreneés, some Italians, and that's about it. That's where the most consistent overlap is.

provence, liguria .
question - what is an Iberian.........ancient term

wormhole
09-08-12, 23:16
sub-Saharan African, North African Berbers, and Egyptians. They're the most African-muddled group of Europeans.

Kardu
09-08-12, 23:29
sub-Saharan African, North African Berbers, and Egyptians. They're the most African-muddled group of Europeans.

Stop crap and trollying

Knovas
10-08-12, 00:40
Kardu or other moderators please. I quoted an insult dedicated to myself here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26815-Autosomal-map-European-admixture-%28from-Dodecad%29&p=397937#post397937

Thanks.

Eldritch
13-02-13, 17:36
Greeks, Italians and Irish

adamo
13-04-13, 02:26
British, Irish, French , Italians, Celtic Europe predominantly and very few but some North African/middle eastern countries. 75% of Spanish on a national level are R1b which means VERY high levels and Portugal like 60% there's more E and J2 in Portugal but overall it is very R1b also.

adamo
13-04-13, 02:28
Correction, Iberia doesn't overlap with middle eastern/north African NATIONS but there is some J2 and E found at relatively low frequencies in Iberian peninsula

Carlos
18-04-13, 03:12
Correction, Iberia doesn't overlap with middle eastern/north African NATIONS but there is some J2 and E found at relatively low frequencies in Iberian peninsula


Look here's a low frequency in the Iberian Peninsula.

adamo
18-04-13, 06:34
Yes, hehe I see this you are haplogroup E-V22......about 10% of spaniards are haplogroup E1b1b positive.....you are in the minority my friend, you can be found if searched for, but you are the minority....there are peaks of 20-30% in a few regions but you identify closer paternally, to North Africans than your European compatriots...E-V22 goes hard on the Egyptian Sinai peninsula by the way so you may cluster most with Egyptians paternally...E-V22 is a sub-branch of the east North African E-M78 and NOT the morocco-Algerian E-M81. Your E-V22 may have arrived via the near east to Europe or by the Maghreb to Europe, either way your group is most frequent among Egyptians/Libyans.

Ziober
18-04-13, 08:22
Ukranians (kurgans):
http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/StelaePeople_zps24790e03.jpg

Nobody1
18-04-13, 12:26
Ukranians (kurgans):
http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/StelaePeople_zps24790e03.jpg

I hope im looking at the same map as you are, because i see a PINK arrow coming from SARDINIA towards IBERIA

That would make Iberians overlap with Sardinians,

Im not sure how trustworthy this scientific looking map is, but its interesting to see Kurgan culture expanding via Sardinia.

Carlos
18-04-13, 15:38
Yes, hehe I see this you are haplogroup E-V22......about 10% of spaniards are haplogroup E1b1b positive.....you are in the minority my friend, you can be found if searched for, but you are the minority....there are peaks of 20-30% in a few regions but you identify closer paternally, to North Africans than your European compatriots...E-V22 goes hard on the Egyptian Sinai peninsula by the way so you may cluster most with Egyptians paternally...E-V22 is a sub-branch of the east North African E-M78 and NOT the morocco-Algerian E-M81. Your E-V22 may have arrived via the near east to Europe or by the Maghreb to Europe, either way your group is most frequent among Egyptians/Libyans.

Who knows, I do not know. My haplogroup is in many countries in Europe and do not have too much information.

Ziober
18-04-13, 18:30
I hope im looking at the same map as you are, because i see a PINK arrow coming from SARDINIA towards IBERIA

That would make Iberians overlap with Sardinians,

Im not sure how trustworthy this scientific looking map is, but its interesting to see Kurgan culture expanding via Sardinia.

I think so Nobodyone. Indeed I think sardinians could be the same cromagnoids that iberians

adamo
19-04-13, 01:27
No Carlos lol. You are haplogroup E-V22. This is not "lots of countries in Europe. This is similar to Egyptians and other haplogroup E-M78 men ( E-V22 is a subgroup of E-V68 found frequently in Egyptian/Libyan men.) and E-V68 is a subgroup of E-M78. It would seem one of your ancestors migrated from North Africa to southwestern Europe.

Carlos
19-04-13, 01:56
No Carlos lol. You are haplogroup E-V22. This is not "lots of countries in Europe. This is similar to Egyptians and other haplogroup E-M78 men ( E-V22 is a subgroup of E-V68 found frequently in Egyptian/Libyan men.) and E-V68 is a subgroup of E-M78. It would seem one of your ancestors migrated from North Africa to southwestern Europe.


So what?


Countries conform to different haplogroups of many migrations, my ancestor was not the only one who has emigrated to Europe.


And of course V-22 is in a lot of countries in Europe.


I can? Take 10 centuries in Europe, maybe more, maybe less? I do not know, just know that I am unique and I am Spanish.

LeBrok
19-04-13, 03:54
No Carlos lol. You are haplogroup E-V22. This is not "lots of countries in Europe. This is similar to Egyptians and other haplogroup E-M78 men ( E-V22 is a subgroup of E-V68 found frequently in Egyptian/Libyan men.) and E-V68 is a subgroup of E-M78. It would seem one of your ancestors migrated from North Africa to southwestern Europe.
All our ancestors migrated from Africa, even Neanderthal.
Do you have problem with this?

adamo
19-04-13, 05:50
Thanks for pointing out the obvious "Le Brok". And no, I don't ave anie problems with dis.

Ziober
20-04-13, 21:10
Iberian Overlaps with Iberians.

This is great:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_kingdom

adamo
21-04-13, 05:56
Loooooool I think probably that's one of the poorest arguments I've ever read in my life.....is it because they have the same name? : ) " the Iberian overlap with Iberians"...... I mean, yeah, minimally to say the very least.

Ziober
21-04-13, 16:42
Loooooool I think probably that's one of the poorest arguments I've ever read in my life.....is it because they have the same name? : ) " the Iberian overlap with Iberians"...... I mean, yeah, minimally to say the very least.

Your attention is what is poor. I'd put this item before:
http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/StelaePeople_zps24790e03.jpg

adamo
21-04-13, 22:35
No look...European Iberians and Caucasus Iberians only overlap in j2 probably, I wonder if even they have the same subclades. Other than that, I don't see how they overlap based on their genetic composition , at all. Haplogroups J2 and G own more than half of Georgian men 55%. They're R1b is around 10%. They are not similar to European Iberians, other than in name. Showing me this children's treasure map proves zero to me of what the reality is, nada, zilch lol. I mean what does this map tell me about the complex and radically different genetic compositions of Portuguese/spaniards and Georgians? Something between not a lot and absolutely nothing. You are like : HAHA! Here it is, the explanation to all my theories..... I don't see what this map indicates or proves in any way...

Ziober
22-04-13, 08:58
All our ancestors migrated from Africa, even Neanderthal.
Do you have problem with this?

It is not relevant. But as I had read Neandertalensis is an entirely european subspecie.

LeBrok
23-04-13, 03:24
Nope, it is Near Eastern too. First contact of Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal occurred in Levant.

Ziober
23-04-13, 07:32
Nope, it is Near Eastern too. First contact of Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal occurred in Levant.

It could be possible. but this wouldn't be evidence of neandertal origin in levant. probably first humans (not sapiens) had originated in Europe. See Atapuerca.

adamo
23-04-13, 09:09
It's not "possible" it IS, he's correct homo neanderthalensis was spread across Europe and western Asia whereas denisovans where found farther east in deeper Asia. Also the first humans originated in Africa...then you also try to separate "humans" and "sapiens" whereas we all know that humans ARE Homo sapiens....hmmm.....I think we may, through you, have found an ancient link to our past....the average human is about 0.5-2% Neanderthal....maybe your family holds the genetic legacy of a family with 5-7% or so Neandy blood! Who knows, should have your genome analyzed

Ziober
23-04-13, 15:55
It's not "possible" it IS, he's correct homo neanderthalensis was spread across Europe and western Asia whereas denisovans where found farther east in deeper Asia. Also the first humans originated in Africa...then you also try to separate "humans" and "sapiens" whereas we all know that humans ARE Homo sapiens....hmmm.....I think we may, through you, have found an ancient link to our past....the average human is about 0.5-2% Neanderthal....maybe your family holds the genetic legacy of a family with 5-7% or so Neandy blood! Who knows, should have your genome analyzed

I don't know if you have low self estime or what and you try to be popular in this forum. But it isn't normal to put 200 messages in one month in this forum. You have the risk to say things with no sense. Neandertals were humans too. The heavy evidence was the cross between neandertal humans and sapiens humans.

Carlos
23-04-13, 17:09
The Neardhentales was another humanity, that's enough just for the sake of being rich at this time, try to even pretend to have Neardhental blood, that's impossible. Nordicistas outdated and retrograde ideas that attempt to show why doing so well in life, please! is absurd.

Ziober
23-04-13, 20:47
No look...European Iberians and Caucasus Iberians only overlap in j2 probably, I wonder if even they have the same subclades. Other than that, I don't see how they overlap based on their genetic composition , at all. Haplogroups J2 and G own more than half of Georgian men 55%. They're R1b is around 10%. They are not similar to European Iberians, other than in name. Showing me this children's treasure map proves zero to me of what the reality is, nada, zilch lol. I mean what does this map tell me about the complex and radically different genetic compositions of Portuguese/spaniards and Georgians? Something between not a lot and absolutely nothing. You are like : HAHA! Here it is, the explanation to all my theories..... I don't see what this map indicates or proves in any way...

You are wrong. Caucasian Iberians, Ukrainians, polish, Britons and Celtiberians share the same R1b subclade, it is S116 (xM259, U152) Look:

5862

adamo
23-04-13, 23:56
S116 is found predominantly in Portuguese, spaniards and south-western/central French men. Britons don't have P-312 ( other than the L-21 subclade which is the son of P-312 that mutated) poles and Ukrainians have relatively negligible R1b levels, Georgians even more so. Look at that map, slightly more to the east, eastern Georgia has only red coloured R1b. And what does my self-esteem have anything to do with this? Lollll I am simply correcting your errors and having fun at the same time....and Neanderthals where not humans, they where a different sub-branch of hominids that where distant cousins to Homo sapiens ( humans).

Carlos
24-04-13, 00:14
It's hard about overlaps, because each country has its own mixture as the evolution of time in each different case. Like my foot Ziober? I have beautiful feet. I put it right because I'm actually covering my brother who appeared in the photo.

Ziober
24-04-13, 01:55
S116 is found predominantly in Portuguese, spaniards and south-western/central French men. Britons don't have P-312 ( other than the L-21 subclade which is the son of P-312 that mutated) poles and Ukrainians have relatively negligible R1b levels, Georgians even more so. Look at that map, slightly more to the east, eastern Georgia has only red coloured R1b. And what does my self-esteem have anything to do with this? Lollll I am simply correcting your errors and having fun at the same time....and Neanderthals where not humans, they where a different sub-branch of hominids that where distant cousins to Homo sapiens ( humans).


First principle of Biology: " Two individuals belongs to the same specie when the descendants of both are fertile "

So neandertals and sapiens are two subspecies belonging to the same specie. This is Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neandertalensis.


I think you are very ignorant or you are trying to boycott.

Carlos
24-04-13, 02:07
¿Ziober, me estás ignorando? ¡no lo voy a consentir...! ¿Te gusta mi pie?

adamo
24-04-13, 03:52
I clearly indicated that they both (homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens) belong to a different SUB-BRANCH of hominids, what part of that was not clear?

Ziober
24-04-13, 04:34
¿Ziober, me estás ignorando? ¡no lo voy a consentir...! ¿Te gusta mi pie?


Me gustan los animales, las plantas, los seres humanos ¿Por qué no me iba a gustar tu pie? Sí Carlos.

Carlos
24-04-13, 04:42
Me gustan los animales, las plantas, los seres humanos ¿Por qué no me iba a gustar tu pie? Sí Carlos.

Tienes buen gusto.

adamo
24-04-13, 05:19
Neanderthals are either a sub-species of homo-sapiens or a separate species within the "homo" genus.

Ziober
24-04-13, 18:20
Voy a decir algo que puede parecer sorprendente. Pero también deberíamos preguntarnos si no es sorprendente la gran diferencia mental entre humanos y animales. La Biología entiende la evolución como algo divergente, irreversible. Pero con el conocimiento del cruce entre neandertales y cromañones esta teoría se desmonta. Pasa a ser la nuestra, una especie concebida a partir de dos ramas distintas, que a su vez se puede cruzar con cualquiera de las dos predecesoras, es decir, los portadores de genes neandertales tienen legítimamente parte de neandertal y parte de cromañon (sapiens) y pueden cruzarse con sapiens puros (la mayoría de africanos) o con neandertales, si existiesen.

O bien PUEDO lanzar la hipótesis, de que en realidad, la especie no empieza en la concepción de neandertales-sapiens. Más bien podría ser que ya los Antecesor>> Heidelbergensis (found in Atapuerca (Spain)) fuesen ya nuestra especie y que algunos migrasen a Africa evolucionando a Homo heidelbergensis sapiens y otros en Europa evolucionando a homo heidelbergensis neandertalensis. Entonces, seríamos en realidad Homo Heidelbergensis. Nenthertalensis y sapiens serían subespecies de Heidelbergensis.

De ser así, la especie humana se habría originado en Iberia.



¿SOMOS EN REALIDAD Homo heidelbergen sapiensis?

adamo
25-04-13, 03:45
Yo no hablo en espanol...: ( no te entiendo.

Ziober
25-04-13, 09:01
I'll try to translate soon. Sorry but I haven't much free time now.

Carlos
25-04-13, 16:57
Yo no hablo en espanol...: ( no te entiendo.


You can use google translator is free. He thinks that the Spanish language is the most important in the world and has more future, indeed its future is assured.

LeBrok
25-04-13, 17:57
Please, post only in english.

Ziober
25-04-13, 18:19
You can use google translator is free. He thinks that the Spanish language is the most important in the world and has more future, indeed its future is assured.

Google translator is the best tool for the misunderstandings. When I'll get some free time I'll do.

Ziober
25-04-13, 22:03
#69 post translated to English:

I'm going to say something that could look surprising, but we must too wondering ourselves if it is not surprising the great difference between animals vs Human minds.

Biology understand evolution as something divergent, irreversible. But with the evidence about neandertals/cromagnoids crosses, this theory should be dismantle. Our specie would become conceive from two diferent branches. Which at same time can be crossed with both of its predecessors, that is, neandertal genes carriers have neandertal and cromagnon (sapiens) identity and its can cross with pure sapiens (most of africans) either with neandertalens (if they still would exist, it is not the case)

Or better I can throw the hypothesis that really, the specie do not begin with neandertals/sapiens conception, but could be H. antecesor>>>heidelberg (founding both in Atapuerca (Spain)) already our specie, and some of them migrates to Africa, evolutioning till Homo heidelberg sapiensIS and another ones remaining in Europe, evolutioning till H. heidelberg neandertalENSIS.

Then, we would be in fact Homo heidelbergen. And neandertals and sapiens subspecies of it.

If my hypothesis is right. The Human specie could got its origin in... Iberia

added:
The new nomenclator must to be Homo heidelbergen sapiensis

Ziober
25-04-13, 22:05
nobody have an opinion about?

julia90
30-04-13, 00:56
I hope im looking at the same map as you are, because i see a PINK arrow coming from SARDINIA towards IBERIA

That would make Iberians overlap with Sardinians,

Im not sure how trustworthy this scientific looking map is, but its interesting to see Kurgan culture expanding via Sardinia.

i think that for the med (for med i intend iberian, pre celtic invasion look of spain portugal), spaniards portuguese look very similar to sardineans.

see yourself
http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=sardineans&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45645796,d.Yms&biw=1366&bih=643&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=Iux-Ue2nGMantAaCx4GwBw#um=1&hl=it&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=costumi+sardi&oq=costumi+sardi&gs_l=img.12...0.0.3.3473.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0. 0...1c..11.img.JrAat42739E&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45645796,d.Yms&fp=ba54053a0e211fdd&biw=1366&bih=643

now i want the opinions of spaniards/portuguese do you find similarities with sardineans?

Carlos
30-04-13, 03:37
i think that for the med (for med i intend iberian, pre celtic invasion look of spain portugal), spaniards portuguese look very similar to sardineans.

see yourself
http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=sardineans&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45645796,d.Yms&biw=1366&bih=643&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=Iux-Ue2nGMantAaCx4GwBw#um=1&hl=it&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=costumi+sardi&oq=costumi+sardi&gs_l=img.12...0.0.3.3473.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0. 0...1c..11.img.JrAat42739E&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45645796,d.Yms&fp=ba54053a0e211fdd&biw=1366&bih=643

now i want the opinions of spaniards/portuguese do you find similarities with sardineans?

Yes of course there similitude, but there are differences that I can see myself as Spanish.


I see more oriental trail Sardinian women than in Spanish. The Sardinian have very high brows, the Spanish somewhat lower. Sardinian women have a softer look, the Spanish have a lively and penetrating look, as if you did an x-ray and all of you know instantly look at you, and the worst is that I think so. Spanish woman also has the most marked features of the face, especially in southern Spain. In the few photos I have seen men with some men more like Spanish and more intense look.


Sardinian women have seemed more full of water than Spanish women.

adamo
30-04-13, 04:15
There is no pre-Celtic invasion look of spaniards, the celts where there first; the bell beaker culture of Atlantic Europe first began to spread from Spain as the R1b men waited out the LGM there. In fact, Spain is the home of the celts, it is from where after the LGM, they spread across Western Europe. The only reason certain spaniards/Portuguese look more "Mediterranean" is because those particular samples probably have J2 or E3b neolithic elements, but most spaniards are in fact R1b, about 3/4 of them. Nor do Iberians cluster with Sardinians, as the latter are a "genetic isolate", high in sardinian hg I ( 45%) and G, with some E and about only 20% R1b and very little J2.

julia90
30-04-13, 11:24
Well, iberians are a tris candidate to be in antiquity similar to modern sardinians, you see it from admixtures, west med is the highest component on sardineans by far, second you find it higer affer on spaniardsportugueses. Sardinians were never celtic

adamo
30-04-13, 11:42
I know they only have 20% R1b; they are not Celtic. They are dominated by hg I-M26, the Sardinian I variety, at 45% or nearly 1 out of ever 2 men. They also have about 15-20% E3b and G, with very low levels of J. They do not cluster with Iberians; they are a global isolate. Sardinians are their own different component over all, they have the highes P15 (G2a) levels in Europe which settled in Sardinia ( responsible for Nuraghic civilization) and predominantly are an isolated hg I branch present outside of Sardinia nowhere even close as high as in Sardinia. They also have pockets of R1b and E3b at lower percentages; its not only that Sardinians don't cluster with other Italians, Corsicans or Sicilians. It's that they don't cluster with any other Europeans either mostly. The first Iberians had probably R1b and certain varieties of I that waited out the LGM. Outside of Sardinia, only central Spain ( Castile/Leon region) has very low but appreciable levels of I-M26, bringing me to believe it arrived in Sardinia via central Spain as one of the first elements to reach Sardinia along with the early but separate middle-eastern arriving G2a men.

julia90
30-04-13, 14:53
You cannot link perfectly populations with ymtdna because it's just a single gene, while clusters examine many many genes; and expecially admixtures which tells genetic relationships.

Balder
30-04-13, 15:28
Probably Central Italians, and Sardinians.

Northern Italians not much, maybe some of them. Much of Northern Italians (like the Venetians and those from Friuli-Venezia Giulia region) would fit more in Northern Balkans than in Iberia and those native of the Alps would fit more in southern Switzerland and Southern France.

As for the south of Italy they are in their average more 'dark' and eastern mediterranean 'look' than their average Iberian.

adamo
30-04-13, 15:37
But what if you know all the y-DNA and mtdna genes off the top of your head like me. Iberians cluster most with southwestern/central French samples.

ElHorsto
30-04-13, 15:53
I know they only have 20% R1b; they are not Celtic. They are dominated by hg I-M26, the Sardinian I variety, at 45% or nearly 1 out of ever 2 men. They also have about 15-20% E3b and G, with very low levels of J. They do not cluster with Iberians; they are a global isolate. Sardinians are their own different component over all, they have the highes P15 (G2a) levels in Europe which settled in Sardinia ( responsible for Nuraghic civilization) and predominantly are an isolated hg I branch present outside of Sardinia nowhere even close as high as in Sardinia. They also have pockets of R1b and E3b at lower percentages; its not only that Sardinians don't cluster with other Italians, Corsicans or Sicilians. It's that they don't cluster with any other Europeans either mostly. The first Iberians had probably R1b and certain varieties of I that waited out the LGM. Outside of Sardinia, only central Spain ( Castile/Leon region) has very low but appreciable levels of I-M26, bringing me to believe it arrived in Sardinia via central Spain as one of the first elements to reach Sardinia along with the early but separate middle-eastern arriving G2a men.

Autosomal analysis does not support this view imho. It rather suggests that Sardinians are the older and less mixed mediterranean remnant due to isolation, and that Iberians deviate from Sardinians towards britain and central europe like being something like Sardinians+IE-Celts mixed. But time will tell.

adamo
30-04-13, 16:17
Good post elhorsto, but I would put even less emphasis on Sardinian elements in Iberia. And very predominantly celts towards British isles, Central Europe as you suggested. Sardinians are a genetic isolate as you said, and most spaniards cluster with the two areas you stated, they're more like British isles and west continental European people's.

julia90
30-04-13, 18:34
Iberians, are a bit more fairer than sardineans, for the deviation towards central europeans, but still the west med component is highest on them, i mean have you ever seen spaniards in real life? At my university there are erasmus from spain.. and i describe them as west med looking, absolutely not british look, even many french erasmus bere are med looking and absolutely not notturne european. You cannot fools italians with the famous spaniards nordicist agendas; we know wells they don't look british, they are more or less in our pigmentation side, i dare to say darker than north italians above the po, and fairer than calabreses, taken on grups, single individues are another matters

adamo
30-04-13, 18:54
French are Mediterranean? Lollllllll you are talking nonsense both French and Spanish cluster with other Celtic R1b people's, stop only visiting the stone beaches of Nice in extreme south-east France. Fool italians with my nordicist agenda? I'm italian myself I have no reason to be a nordicist, think of what your saying. Spaniards are predominantly the same as north Italians with certain more exotic J2/E3b elements in a few regions, southern Italians are comparable to Greeks and even certain middle easterners with a Celtic substratum among them.

Carlos
30-04-13, 23:31
The only place where they are more exotic is in the Canary Islands by the Guanches component. Moreover among us there are not many topics on the physical, unless the Spanish legendary status among the beauty of Andalusian women on the other and that the Basques are very strong, otherwise no topics among us who is more blonde or whiter or darker or less dark, that's because there are no significant differences that draw the attention of one region to another.


I think that Italy is not a country that should idolize Nordicism is too large as a country that could afford to admire himself. This can be for the bombing we've had in the world of Nordic phenotypes in advertising, film, photography, etc. you can create a model that feeds because they will always appear beautiful, but the same bombing could do the reverse with Nordic phenotypes ugly models, but has not been well of course, advertising seeks the ideal and wonderful and not have to be persuaded by advertising.

julia90
01-05-13, 00:44
French are Mediterranean? Lollllllll you are talking nonsense both French and Spanish cluster with other Celtic R1b people's, stop only visiting the stone beaches of Nice in extreme south-east France. Fool italians with my nordicist agenda? I'm italian myself I have no reason to be a nordicist, think of what your saying. Spaniards are predominantly the same as north Italians with certain more exotic J2/E3b elements in a few regions, southern Italians are comparable to Greeks and even certain middle easterners with a Celtic substratum among them.

yes, i think 1/3 of french falls in the med category.. For example there was a french market in my town, and guess, they were more or less like our local people, with many med fenotypes; Also many french erasmus, and french in my hotel last summer, thought i don't know from which place they were from

julia90
01-05-13, 00:52
in italy the more particolar people, and outstanding beauty are people from Veneto/Friuli, extreme southern italians like sicilians and calabreses, neapolitans and sardineans

adamo
01-05-13, 03:07
1/3 mediterraneans? Try more like 1/10 or 1/8 med, they are more heavily R1b and slightly I than we often give them credit for; French are very blond European.

oreo_cookie
05-10-13, 04:00
Some Iberians, like Portuguese and Canarians, have high North African admixture compared to other parts of Southern Europe.

MOESAN
29-11-14, 00:36
I take this thread as an intertainment, not a scientific debate place
"Iberians" are not completely homogenous, and less yet are French people and Italians - whatever the Y-DNA and mt-DNA and even autosomals (don't forget a lot of autosomals are selection:climate dependants)
so I think (without to fight to defend hos opinion based on EXTERNAL phenotypes (phenotypes can be invisible!!!) Southern Italians and Sardinians, yes, seem close enough to Spanyards of some regions and to Portugueses, closer than are the Greeks -
North Italians and even Central Italians, pigmentation aside, show already some visible divergeance from Iberians (body, head...) - in France, the Corsicans (if we can say "France" for Corsica!!!) and the Catalans of Rossilyo/Roussillon are the closest to Spanyards, I think - other Frenchies, even the darker, show AS A MEAN, big enough differences concerning corpulence and head form and other traits, being very various -
we speak here of means, general impressions, not of individuals, of course - and don't forget every place show variants and crossings, only the proportions differ and the elements in presence change

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 04:20
I know this opinion is not popular but I think some coastal North Africans look Iberian too.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 15:50
Some north africans and some levantines with pure mediterranean phenotype yes they can pass in south Europe, but on average it is very easily to distinguish them from south europeans.

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 21:00
Some north africans and some levantines with pure mediterranean phenotype yes they can pass in south Europe, but on average it is very easily to distinguish them from south europeans.

But I'd maintain also that when you do find a good match between them, North Africans and Iberians can be very close. This girl is an example, she looks a lot like many Portuguese and southern Spanish women:

leila-bekhti-j-ai-des-projets-des-films-qui-sortent-c-est-super-mais-c-est-tellement-aleatoire-photo-pqr.jpg (http://s-www.estrepublicain.fr/images/37905B36-7BA6-4C8A-89EA-AB4240E3E7A1/LER_15/leila-bekhti-j-ai-des-projets-des-films-qui-sortent-c-est-super-mais-c-est-tellement-aleatoire-photo-pqr.jpg)

Kardu
29-11-14, 22:05
But I'd maintain also that when you do find a good match between them, North Africans and Iberians can be very close. This girl is an example, she looks a lot like many Portuguese and southern Spanish women:

leila-bekhti-j-ai-des-projets-des-films-qui-sortent-c-est-super-mais-c-est-tellement-aleatoire-photo-pqr.jpg (http://s-www.estrepublicain.fr/images/37905B36-7BA6-4C8A-89EA-AB4240E3E7A1/LER_15/leila-bekhti-j-ai-des-projets-des-films-qui-sortent-c-est-super-mais-c-est-tellement-aleatoire-photo-pqr.jpg)

She doesn't look like Spanish.. maximum Latina maybe

MOESAN
13-02-15, 23:44
f you put 20 genuine coastal Asturians, 20 genuine Catalans and 20 genuine Malaga Andalus (and others), surely even you will see a difference, slight it's true...(the individual within differences will be stronger than the collective between ones) - sure Italians show more regional differences, and Frenchies too, that said. concerning Berbers, there are individual AND ALSO regional differences (Berber is a common term for widely spred groups: I saw big differences among them and someones without any apparent "blood drop" of subsaharian, other where this subsaharian was visible even if light, sometimes in the same group (but there autosomal means were surely equal in thi last case) - buena noche

Carlos
27-05-15, 01:32
Hello dear European friends, I am very angry about the Eurovision Song Contest. I have always present and pleasantly remind some more than others of course. I go to the topic, someone on Facebook said the Spaniards had small eyes and a little sad, the truth is that I have begun to notice and believe that older Spaniards have small eyes and eye shape is like soft, is as if you gave two stabs in leather. I've been watching and as I live in an area of Spain where citizens originally from all regions of Spain I have seen that small, dark brown eyes occurs in any area of Spain.

Carlos
07-02-17, 01:48
But I'd maintain also that when you do find a good match between them, North Africans and Iberians can be very close. This girl is an example, she looks a lot like many Portuguese and southern Spanish women:

leila-bekhti-j-ai-des-projets-des-films-qui-sortent-c-est-super-mais-c-est-tellement-aleatoire-photo-pqr.jpg (http://s-www.estrepublicain.fr/images/37905B36-7BA6-4C8A-89EA-AB4240E3E7A1/LER_15/leila-bekhti-j-ai-des-projets-des-films-qui-sortent-c-est-super-mais-c-est-tellement-aleatoire-photo-pqr.jpg)

Very pretty girl, but in southern Spain would not be a common aspect, Leila is very homogeneous, even if I hurry it would be easier to find it in Galicia or Castilla than in Andalusia.

Carlos
07-02-17, 02:28
8462
Adriana Porrero

8463
Anabel Armario

8464
Macarena Gómez

8465
Verónica Sánchez

8466
Cristina Peña

Here I leave a small representation of current Andalusian women

Seanp
07-02-17, 02:35
The North African/Near Eastern ancestry is overestimated in Iberia. Even Andalusians score less than 20% North African admixture for the most part. This is the autosomal result of a Spanish person from Murcia i've shared a distant match which is weird considering i'm Hun. MDLP World 22#PopulationPercent1Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolit hic40.292North-East-European25.783Near_East16.864West-Asian9.285Sub-Saharian3.766Indo-Iranian1.647Melanesian1.18East-South-Asian0.519Samoedic0.3910Arctic-Amerind0.311Mesoamerican0.08Single Population Sharing:#Population (source)Distance1Italian-North (derived)8.222Corsican (derived)8.713Portugese (derived)9.294Ashkenazim_V (derived)10.315Italian_North (derived)11.576Greek_South (derived)11.947Iberian (derived)11.948Provancestralal (derived)12.579Kosovar (derived)12.7310Italian-Center (derived)12.9811Greek_North (derived)13.1812Greek_Center (derived)13.3713Swiss (derived)13.4914Italian-South (derived)1415Jew_Romania (derived)14.1216Spaniard (derived)14.1717Greek_East (derived)14.5218Puerto-Rican (derived)14.6219Sicilian (derived)15.0520Romania (derived)15.56Mixed Mode Population Sharing:# Primary Population (source)Secondary Population (source)Distance1 81% Portugese (derived) + 19% Jordanian (derived) @ 2.722 76.5% Iberian (derived) + 23.5% Jordanian (derived) @ 2.843 83.9% Portugese (derived) + 16.1% Yemen (derived) @ 2.884 79.9% Iberian (derived) + 20.1% Yemen (derived) @ 2.885 76.9% Spaniard (derived) + 23.1% Yemen (derived) @ 2.896 76.6% Italian_North (derived) + 23.4% Mozabite (derived) @ 2.987 75% Spaniard (derived) + 25% Egyptian (derived) @ 3.168 81.6% Portugese (derived) + 18.4% Palestinian (derived) @ 3.179 82.6% Portugese (derived) + 17.4% Egyptian (derived) @ 3.210 86.3% Portugese (derived) + 13.7% Saudi (derived) @ 3.411 73.3% Spaniard (derived) + 26.7% Jordanian (derived) @ 3.4312 85.6% Portugese (derived) + 14.4% Bedouin (derived) @ 3.4513 77.2% Iberian (derived) + 22.8% Palestinian (derived) @ 3.5114 81.5% Portugese (derived) + 18.5% Syrian (derived) @ 3.5115 78.4% Iberian (derived) + 21.6% Egyptian (derived) @ 3.5116 90% Italian-North (derived) + 10% Jew-Ethiopia (derived) @ 3.6417 78.9% Spaniard (derived) + 21.1% Bedouin (derived) @ 3.6618 90.1% Italian-North (derived) + 9.9% Jew_Ethiopia (derived) @ 3.7519 82.8% Iberian (derived) + 17.2% Saudi (derived) @ 3.8120 78.7% Italian_North (derived) + 21.3% Moroccan (derived) @ 3.82Only 20% North African admixture considering you'd expect much more after 800 years of Moorish rule.

Carlos
07-02-17, 02:50
We have our particular mix that is unique and we resemble ourselves. Since legendary times among the Spaniards of other regions the Andalusians have a reputation for great beauty, hence the myths in literature of the work La lozana andaluza, or the pictorial works of Julio Romero de Torres, are the women most desired by the Spaniards, Topic is not a myth in Spain.

8467
Amparo Muñoz
8468
Anita Delgado

8469
Carmen Sevilla

8470
Karina

8471
Marisol

Para muestra un botón, como decimos los españoles. To show a button, as the Spaniards say.

Greetings dear friends yesterday yesterday and always, good night.

Blanco
25-03-17, 00:13
Iberians are diverse looking people. Some look like North/West Europeans and some look like lighter North Africans/Near Easterners while the vast majority look like other South Europeans or have a specific look which only exist in the Iberian peninsula.

stevenarmstrong
25-03-17, 01:03
The North African/Near Eastern ancestry is overestimated in Iberia. Even Andalusians score less than 20% North African admixture for the most part. This is the autosomal result of a Spanish person from Murcia i've shared a distant match which is weird considering i'm Hun. MDLP World 22.

I tested myself using the same matrix. I'm almost 100% northwestern European.

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 47.79
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 35.67
3 West-Asian 6.05
4 North-European-Mesolithic 4.20
5 Indo-Iranian 2.33
6 Near_East 1.98
7 North-Amerind 1.18

1 and 2 have pretty much been flopped, showing that my unusually high percentage of Iberian DNA most likely dates back to a Neolithic population divergence. I suspect a Bell Beaker connection. Near East influence is also much less pronounced in my profile.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Welsh @ 3.738122
2 CEU_V @ 3.873846
3 CEU @ 4.063993
4 German_V @ 4.172321
5 British @ 4.677317
6 Austrian @ 4.684171
7 Orcadian @ 6.011625
8 German-South @ 6.948471
9 Norwegian_V @ 7.162443
10 Hungarian @ 7.986369
11 German-North @ 8.697233
12 Swedish @ 8.772057
13 Slovenian @ 9.339113
14 German @ 9.897456
15 Serbian @ 9.978388
16 Croatian @ 10.061504
17 Bosnian @ 10.831222
18 Swedish_V @ 11.923622
19 Montenegrin @ 12.212621
20 French @ 12.386486

binx
01-04-17, 01:02
In my opinion French are the closest. Then, Italians, English and Irish show a lot of similarities too.

Vast majority of French are pretty different from the Iberians, except the South-Western French.

Carlos
16-01-18, 18:09
I see the Iberians at least in appearance, it is possible that I am wrong. It is easier for me to find or see, in my own way, very pure Iberian women at least as men, within the difficulty as I believe that our particular Spanish mixture has diluted or overlapped the typical Iberian phenotypes that I think should be straight hair, little hair body or almost none in men.
9657
Charo López

9658
Montserrat Caballé

Carlos
16-01-18, 20:41
Algunos más, bajo mi percepción de como debían ser las características de los íberos.

Some more, under my perception of how they should be the characteristics of the Iberians.


9650
Actriz catalana

9651
Actriz catalana

9652
Manzanares torero

9653

AdeoF
16-01-18, 21:06
I did a DNA test and I mostly overlap with Italians (Roman/more north and central) and the Celtic-Germanic people (more Celtic), but of a lesser extent the Occitanians aswell.

brick
04-05-18, 19:44
Southwestern French and North and Central Italians.

Georgewalley
15-05-18, 06:56
Southern French, Central Italians, Sardinians the most, despite the stereotype the "North African" leaning phenotypes are rare to non existent among ethnic Spaniards.