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Maciamo
07-12-11, 12:23
I have explained in Revising the classification of Indo-European languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27103) that Latin and Greek are probably hybrid languages with two major components: one Indo-European, and the other from an unknown West Asian language (probably long extinct). There may also be older Neolithic loanwords.

It is evidently hard to identify words from an unknown extinct language, so the best way to proceed to to sieve the words that cannot be ascertain as Indo-European. This includes all the roots of unknown or uncertain origin.

I will start by listing Latin words with their Italian and French derivatives, and show the lack of resemble to the Proto-Indo-European root.

Latin (French, Italian) >< PIE root

- manducare (manger, mangiare) >< *ed-

EDIT : here are more words

- amygdala/amandula (amande, mandorla), from Greek amygdalos but not found in other IE languages

- autumnus (automne, autunno), of unknown origin, possibly from Etruscan.

- bestia (bête, bestia)

- coda (queue, coda), unrelated to the PIE *puk(eha) or *wolos

- elementem (element, elemento)

- cylindrus (cylindre, cilindro) only related to Greek kylindros

- famulus : Latin word for servant from which "family" is derived. Unrelated to the PIE roots *genhes or *wik

- farcire (farcire, farcire)

- finis (fin, fine), unrelated to the PIE root *termn-

- honorem (honeur, onore), not found in other IE languages

- largus (large, largo), unrelated to the PIE *megha or *mehro

- male/malus (mal, male), not related to PIE *ghalh(x)ros nor *hedwol

- metallum (métal, metallo), from Greek metallon, but differs from PIE word *h(a)eyes

- miser (misère, misera), no similarity with other IE languages

- (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.). No IE cognate.

- nigrum (noir, nero), unrelated to the PIE *k(w)rsnos, *mel-n or *keir

- oceanus (ocean, oceano), from Greek oceanos, but no cognates in other IE

- ochra (ocre, ocra), from Greek ochra, but no cognates in other IE

- phrasis (phrase, frase), from Greek phrasis (speech, way of speaking), but doesn't cognate with any IE word

- populus (peuple, popolo), no cognate in other IE languages. Possibly from Etruscan.

- purpura (pourpre, purpureo), from Greek porphyra which is of Semitic origin

- radius (rayon, raggio/radio)

- sanguis (sang, sangue), unrelated to the PIE *bhlo-to

- silens (silence, silenzio), doesn't appear to be IE

- sphæra (sphère, sfera) from Greek sphaira (globe, ball), of unknown origin.

- totus/totalis (total, totale), no IE cognate

- verdis (vert, verde), unrelated to the PIE *ker-, *kr-wos or *modheros, or to the PIE base *ghre- ("grow", from which the Germanic green derives)

- volare (voler, volare), unrelated to the PIE *dih- or *pet-


Greek words

- auto- : prefix meaning "self", doesn't cognate in other IE languages

- mythos : "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

- elektron : Greek word for amber, no cognate in IE

- xanthos : Greek word for yellow, no cognate in IE

- The Greek for "thousand" (kilo or khilias) as well as the Latin one (mille) are unrelated to the PIE root *tuh(a)s-kmtyos found in all Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.

Asturrulumbo
07-12-11, 23:33
I have explained in Revising the classification of Indo-European languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27103) that Latin and Greek are probably hybrid languages with two major components: one Indo-European, and the other from an unknown West Asian language (probably long extinct). There may also be older Neolithic loanwords.

It is evidently hard to identify words from an unknown extinct language, so the best way to proceed to to sieve the words that cannot be ascertain as Indo-European. This includes all the roots of unknown or uncertain origin.

I will start by listing Latin words with their Italian and French derivatives, and show the lack of resemble to the Proto-Indo-European root.

Latin (Italian, French) >< PIE root

- manducare (mangiare, manger) >< *ed-


(don't have time to continue this now. Will update later).
"Manducare" comes from latin "mandare", which in turn comes from PIE *mhanos (hand: Proto-Germanic *mnha-to-, Albanian "marr", Hittite "maniyahh-", etc.)

Maciamo
07-12-11, 23:41
"Manducare" comes from latin "mandare", which in turn comes from PIE *mhanos (hand: Proto-Germanic *mnha-to-, Albanian "marr", Hittite "maniyahh-", etc.)

What's the connection with the meaning of eat and send (mandare) or hand (mano) ? It's not because they look similar that they are necessarily related.

Asturrulumbo
08-12-11, 00:06
What's the connection with the meaning of eat and send (mandare) or hand (mano) ? It's not because they look similar that they are necessarily related.
You're right, I mixed up. "Manducare" does come from "mandare", but this "mandare" (which means "chew") is etymologically unrelated to the other "mandare" (send).
The "mandare" from where "manducare" comes is through a nasalized variant of "madere" (to wet: "madeo" (I wet) > "mando" (I chew)). This in turn comes from PIE *mehad (to become wet, to moist, to fat: see Old Irish "maidid" (breaks, gushes), Proto-Germanic *matiz (food), Old Indic "mada" (alcoholic beverage), etc.)

Yetos
08-12-11, 10:16
Interesting

lets compare with a Food Mandrax
the famous plant Aristotle describe as Mandragora :?

Modern Greek μασαω (I chew) masao
μασαμπουκα masabuka means good food to eat a lot comparing Brygian Bekos = baked, Bread

Although it is modern Greek,
But there I can't find alternate for chew in Greek
so probably mangare means to chew and in Italian become to eat?

a greek loan to Italian or Italian loan to Greek or both from another root, IE or not?

I think the root gives also the Mandrax
and a virb μαγκωνω mangono which Means to Grab to Bind so hard as with Teeth

compare the ancient Greek word Μεγγενη ( a vice machine that holds steady objects)
so the connection among chew (grab hold with teeth, or like teeth) becomes mangare in Italian

http://e-shop10.gr/images/Vices440x225UN180_3.jpg
the name of the machine is Μεγγενη mengeni
the machine work as teeth when chew,
so mangare might be the result after the teeth work

PS
to be honest the Homeric word μαγισσα (magician) for Kirke original meaning is not the one who makes magic, but the one who uses tricks to grab and hold you,
so when a woman is crazy with a man she uses herbal or spell to hold him, so she wants to put him in meggene to μαγκωσει him, to petrify or astonish so she can hold and grab, to chew him
(consider that the story of Kirke says that she turned them to pigs in order to chew them)
μαγος and μαγισσα (magician) does not mean sorcerer or wizard but holder, master binder,
the modern meaning of magician is due to time and vivid languages which by time give several meanings to the original ideas
so if original proto word ment to eat or to grab with Teeth, or to chew I do not know,
But I think a correct root of the word is found
no matter IE or not, Italian or Greek or minor Asian

Estel
08-12-11, 20:04
There have to be Latin words coming from non-IE sources, but manducare is not a good example. The relationship with the roots mentioned for "chewing" (mando) is clear via the character of Manducus, the glutton, represented with the mask of someone chewing. And I don't see it unlikely at all to relate mand- with *mad-, given that in other languages the meaning derived are also related to chewing, eating, drinking or food.

Maciamo
09-12-11, 09:51
I have added many new words to the list. I think they will be much more difficult to reject than manducare.

Taranis
09-12-11, 11:08
I have added many new words to the list. I think they will be much more difficult to reject than manducare.

Very good. I do have a two words which I am confident about that you can remove them:

- (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.).
It actually has a cognate in Germanic: German "schmeißen" (to throw), compare English "to smite"

- totus/totalis (total, totale)
'totus' is actually of IE origin, however the meaning is changed from originally "tribe"/"people" (compare Gaulish "touta", Old Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud", German "Deutsch", Lithuanian "tauta") towards the meaning of "all" or "whole".

Otherwise, I'd suggest you to definitely move the Greek loanwords into Latin over to Greek. It's clear that these words were borrowed from Greek into Latin, and not from a common third source.

zanipolo
09-12-11, 11:51
You're right, I mixed up. "Manducare" does come from "mandare", but this "mandare" (which means "chew") is etymologically unrelated to the other "mandare" (send).
The "mandare" from where "manducare" comes is through a nasalized variant of "madere" (to wet: "madeo" (I wet) > "mando" (I chew)). This in turn comes from PIE *mehad (to become wet, to moist, to fat: see Old Irish "maidid" (breaks, gushes), Proto-Germanic *matiz (food), Old Indic "mada" (alcoholic beverage), etc.)

? what
its magnar to eat and also for food
mandare to send
mastegar to chew
mastego to feast
midir to be moist


in italian word for food is cibo - go figure ????

Maciamo
09-12-11, 12:47
Very good. I do have a two words which I am confident about that you can remove them:

- (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.).
It actually has a cognate in Germanic: German "schmeißen" (to throw), compare English "to smite"

- totus/totalis (total, totale)
'totus' is actually of IE origin, however the meaning is changed from originally "tribe"/"people" (compare Gaulish "touta", Old Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud", German "Deutsch", Lithuanian "tauta") towards the meaning of "all" or "whole".


Thanks for pointing out these similarities. This certainly increases the likelihood of totus and (s)mittere to be of IE origin, although they could still be remnant words from a Neolithic language around the Alps if they aren't found in any other IE languages.


Otherwise, I'd suggest you to definitely move the Greek loanwords into Latin over to Greek. It's clear that these words were borrowed from Greek into Latin, and not from a common third source.

I will. I started with the Latin list and only added the Greek words as an afterthought. I am planning to reorganise everything in a table like for the Germanic words of non-IE origin (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml).

Maciamo
09-12-11, 12:57
Here are more non-IE Latin words, which are said to come from Etruscan:

- arista (arête, arête)
- atrium
- balteus (borrowed into Germanic and gave English the word belt)
- cærimonia (cérémonie, ceremonia)
- fenestra (fenêtre, finestra)
- harena (arène, arena) : originally meaning "sandy place"
- mercatus (marché, mercato) : from merx (wares, merchandise)
- militaris (militaire, militario) : from miles (soldier)
- palatum (palais, palato)
- servire (servir, servire) : from servus (serf, slave)
- vernaculus (vernaculaire, vernacolo) from verna "home-born slave, native".
- vulcanus (volcan, volcano)

Maciamo
09-12-11, 13:49
More words (mostly vocabulary relating to the Mediterranean climate) :

- angelus (ange, angelo) : perhaps from Semitic or another non-IE Middle-Eastern language
- cicada (cigale, cicala) : not a native Latin word; perhaps a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
- cucumerem (concombre, -) : perhaps from a pre-Italic Mediterranean language
- cupressus (cyprès, cipresso) : from Greek kyparissos, probably from an unknown pre-Greek Mediterranean language.
- dactylus (datte, dattero) : from Gk. daktylos ("finger, toe), from a Semitic source (Hebrew deqel, Aramaic diqla, Arabic daqal "date palm")
- digitus (doigt, detto) : same as above, differ from the PIE word for finger *polikos
- ficus (figue, fico) : from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language, possibly Semitic
- laurus (laurier, alloro) : probably from a pre-IE Mediterranean language
- mentha (menthe, menta) : from Greek minthe probably a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
- lion : perhaps from Semitic
- mulus (mule, mulo) : probably from a pre-Latin Mediterranean language.
- norma (norme, norma)
- pira (poire, pera)
- plumbum (plomb, piombo) : probably borrowed from a lost Mediterranean language, perhaps Iberian.
- racemus (raisin, -) : probably from the same ancient lost Mediterranean language
- saccus (sac, sacco) : from Greek sakkos, from Semitic (Hebrew saq "sack")
- spongia (éponge, spongia) : from Greek spongos, ultimately from an unknown source
- tunica (tunique, tunica) from
- turris (tour, torre) : possibly from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language.

Yetos
09-12-11, 14:03
wow indeed the list is growing

lets see

Cylindrus
the Greek spelling gives
the curves καμπυλες
κοιλος (bound to inner circle) British Coil (tesla coils etc) Germ Hohl
κυρτος (bound the external of circle) the curve the most IE use the convex but Slavic use vupuklyi (klyi compare κυκλος) Armenian urrut (urut->urt)
κυκλος the circle
κυλινδρος from κυκλος and draw? or from circle and ιδρυω (born from circle or raises circles)
κυλω κυλαω virb I roll
in all 5 words we find similar sounds except ρ ανδ λ wich are Λυγρα and might be a sound change of Λ to ρ for best sound,
or one is expelled
if someone can compare with other old languages like Sanshqrit or avestan the above 5
that means if cylinder is non IE Greek then many words similar like coil etc are Greek loans
Besides it is mathematic and probably the global vocabulary is after the first language publish
compare internet as word is a global word today and not διαδικτυο cause all modern publication use it as Lingua Franca


Honorem
must be connected with Greek ονομα name
in ancient world there were parades to honour someone or to shame him
Greek use the word τιμη and ατιμωση but the result is that the person become ονομαστος famous
so Honorem probably means to make his name famous, to pass his name to immortality


largus hmm we find in Greek a word πελωριος which is connected with Slavic Veliki-veliko
it means Huge, very big in size, although the miss of Πε and Ve makes me wonder,
difficult to taxonomy


Mettalum and Μετταλο well if comes from μετταλο then we have an extract
mettalon is not mettal as we know today
mettalon means extract of a smith
after μαλθωσις melt
you to need to plague the extract virb Τελω-τελαω-τηλω modern ταλανιζομαι compare noun ταλας and coin = talant
ταλας and talant means striked by hammer
so mettalon is Μετα+ταλας = Μετταλο (after prossesing)
it means the result of hammer work
a connection with melt (μαλθωσις) is also possible as a result of melting, meta+malt

miser is connected with Death and hate compare Greek Μισητος and μαρασμος
the one whos fate is death or the one is hated by all to much so to want or consider him dead,
compare south slavic mrzi mrazev etc
and Μοιραι ( 3 Fates)
it seems to me that is a word that changed through time from μοιρα to miseria
compare κακκη μοιρα (bad fate bad luck) goes miseria
the connection with south south slavic gives another view


Sphere hmm when a ball is stable is Σφαιρα but when it turns Σβουριζει so p->V
lets compare with other IE
Armenian verev South Slavic Vrh a greek loan to them? or Greek loaned the word?

totus a connection with teuta? the sum of people = nation


now about Greek words

auto has 2 meanings
a) Ουτοs ουτο means he compare albanian thot english this that etc clearly IE
b) εαυτος from ενιαυτος means i my self or he himself εν+ουτος in this (I show my self) so it is clear IE


mythos is a word that comes from 2
and is not mythos but ομου + εφη
ομου means all together εφη means speak- say so ομου+εφη = mythos = all say that


electron ηλεκτρον
when Thales describe electron he did not tell about electronic and neutron and cables etc
he said about a force that ελκει pulls things
so that ρητινη (amber) is named electron cause it pulls
compare the words ulcerate duktILen armenia galusty Baltic Culat

so electron which is a thing is after a clear IE root
Besides at Turkish amber is kehribar what that means amber is a turkish word? or Turks are IE?


Xanthos ξανθος hmmm good point to that
by aeoilian and Makedonian we find many times that X is k+s or s+k
Northen Greeks and many times Dorians used sk instead of X
so if we use the X as sk in the name of XUTHUS we find what?
SKuthus or Scythos or Scythian
Scythians were Blond
so Xanthos means Scythian Blond
Blond and Blue eyes were rare in Greece, exept the area of upper thessaly and makedonia and east Epirus (R1a area)

no to expell a word from IE family we must also compare it with AVESTAN ARYAN SANSHQRIT etc

GERMANIC AND BALTOSLAVIC IS NOT THE ONLY IE AND NEITHER THE ORIGINAL IE
AND MAYBE ARE NOT THAT OLD

there is a souther corridor of IE from italy Greece to India that passes from Aryan Armenia Iran Afganistan
(Alexanders road)

in that corridor exist Italian-Latin Greek Antolian Armenian Avestan and Iranic Aryan ..... Sanshqrit
to consider 1 word as clear IE must be in all IE languages
but to expel 1 word must not in all the above,
Meaning that if a word does not exist in germanic or Balto-slavic does mean it is not IE cause it might exist also in sanshqrit or tocharian or whatever

if exist in 2 languages that are away (not Germanic -balto-slavic or Greco-Latin) but from different cultures then surely is IE
1 word that exist in Germanic and avestan migh be IE but a word that exist in Germanic and balto-slavic which are near and does not exist in other away cultures like armenia sanshqrit might not be IE

IE does not mean European neither blond with blue eyes
neither a culture from North to South
in fact amber might not be IE word at all but Turkish (kehribar colour of kehri) Panicum miliaceum color

IE is language that is connected with middle East and caucas and spread
if it spread by 1 or 2 or 4 HG I do not know, but surely nations that spread IE had primary HG

Yetos
09-12-11, 18:52
More words (mostly vocabulary relating to the Mediterranean climate) :

- angelus (ange, angelo) : perhaps from Semitic or another non-IE Middle-Eastern language
- cicada (cigale, cicala) : not a native Latin word; perhaps a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
- cucumerem (concombre, -) : perhaps from a pre-Italic Mediterranean language
- cupressus (cyprès, cipresso) : from Greek kyparissos, probably from an unknown pre-Greek Mediterranean language.
- dactylus (datte, dattero) : from Gk. daktylos ("finger, toe), from a Semitic source (Hebrew deqel, Aramaic diqla, Arabic daqal "date palm")
- digitus (doigt, detto) : same as above, differ from the PIE word for finger *polikos
- ficus (figue, fico) : from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language, possibly Semitic
- laurus (laurier, alloro) : probably from a pre-IE Mediterranean language
- mentha (menthe, menta) : from Greek minthe probably a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
- lion : perhaps from Semitic
- mulus (mule, mulo) : probably from a pre-Latin Mediterranean language.
- norma (norme, norma)
- pira (poire, pera)
- plumbum (plomb, piombo) : probably borrowed from a lost Mediterranean language, perhaps Iberian.
- racemus (raisin, -) : probably from the same ancient lost Mediterranean language
- saccus (sac, sacco) : from Greek sakkos, from Semitic (Hebrew saq "sack")
- spongia (éponge, spongia) : from Greek spongos, ultimately from an unknown source
- tunica (tunique, tunica) from
- turris (tour, torre) : possibly from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language.





angelo from Greek Αγγελος virb αγγελω is not a holy Christian creature with white colors,
Aγγελος means messenger and is clear IE and not semitic
2 ancient Homeric words combiner to make 1
αγω + λογος meaning I Bring the law
αγω and ηκω and ακουω meaning Ι guide i drive I rule I go(compare aga-memnon achamainides King?) I arrive I reach I come ανδ Ι Hear
λογος in Greek is speech but also Logic logical in English is Law
so in translation means Go the Law or Listen the law or law Bringer (messenger)

Ω Ξειν Αγγελειν Λακεδαιμονιοις
means go and tell Spartan
not wear feathers white clothes and baptise Spartans

ηξεις αφιξεις ου εν το πολεμω θνησκεις
you will go (αγω ηκω) you will comeback not in the war you will die
famous Delphic oracle spell

Dactylus
interesting case but by watching Greek language we also find words like κονδυλος σπονδυλος (vertebra)
all have to do with human anatomy
example σπονδυλος are the small bones which connected to create the spine
also εσω κονδυλος ... lateral condyle
why δαχτυλος dakdyle is not connected also with the above
comparing stylus that creates stele στυλος στηλη
not sure and not conviced
considering that fingers are used to show to point
then from ide ιδε ιδου (look) and virb δεικνυω (I show , I point at) we get the point bone system
then means ιδε+δυλος or δεικ+τυλος = δακτυλος
compare Germanic das english this
the finger that points is the δεικτης the digital



cupressus Clear IE
Greek κυπαρισσος means Green κυπρ = green compare the copper rust Κυπρος the plant κυπηρις
modern is πρασινο from κυπρασιο
except if Green is not IE but mediterrenean also

lion interesting
Greek Λεων Kings share is Λεια compare english Loot Latvian Laupit Armenian talan etc we find the theme Le
Greek βασιλεας means the Big loot share, or the one who drive us to loot, or central lion
Βασις + λεων
when a male lion eats no body goes near
compare the Homeric σκυλα (the amount of loot)
λεων the Lion but also the looter
possesive case λεοντος (leot ->loot) clear IE


saccuss !!!! hmm I can find it In russian and south slavic to have you searched the sanshqrit and avestan and tocharian also
since exist in more than 3 languages from 3 diferent kind,
or a loan from Greek to roman and to russian ( and south slavic) also


spongia σφογγος
also interesting
since IE were not naval or sea culture you might be right σφογγος is a sea animal
but I am not sure have you compare it virb σφιγγω and english knot?
can you tell me the IE word?


finally turris
well many linguists are stuck to that word as Tursis greek τυρις -τυρινθος english tower
although it explains very well the name of Etruscans (en tursis) and the name Troy
the above is wrong if we compine with Hattian then Etruscans comes from Hat-rus compare Hat-ria Attika etc
so it is a problematic word since there is a virb τερω τηρω θωρω (Ι have a view) to watch and stand by, to observe to secure with eye view in Greek compare virb παρα-τηρω and watch tower παρα-τηρη-τηριο
Pontic greek τερον = look english track poland tor etc
I can not search avestan and sanshqrit and tocharian
simply it is difficult to find if it etruscan or IE


now maciamo since you know the IE can you tell me how is in IE the bellow?


- cicada (cigale, cicala)
- cucumerem (concombre, -)
- cupressus (cyprès, cipresso)
- ficus (figue, fico) :
- laurus (laurier, alloro)
- mentha (menthe, menta)
- mulus (mule, mulo)
- norma (norme, norma)
- pira (poire, pera)
- plumbum (plomb, piombo)
- racemus (raisin, -)
- spongia (éponge, spongia)
- tunica (tunique, tunica)
- turris (tour, torre)

Asturrulumbo
10-12-11, 00:50
- amygdala/amandula (amande, mandorla), from Greek amygdalos but not found in other IE languages
Agreed, this definitely is from a Pre-Greek ("Pelasgian") substrate
- autumnus (automne, autunno), of unknown origin, possibly from Etruscan.
Also agreed, but it would be useful to note that it was originally only a divinity name, and the Romans borrowed many other deities from the Etruscans' pantheon.
- bestia (bête, bestia)
Possibly related to Latin belua (beast) and fera (wild animal), which come from PIE *ghueros (see Greek ther (wild animal), Tocharian B serwe (hunter), Lithuanian zveris (wild beast), etc.)
- coda (queue, coda), unrelated to the PIE *puk(eha) or *wolos
Coda is a variant of cauda, which may be related to caudex (tree trunk), which possibly comes from cudere(to strike, to knock), in the sense of striking the tree. Cudere in turn comes from PIE *kehau (see Proto-Germanic *hawwanan (to chop, to forge), Lithuanian kauja (strike, forge), Tocharian B kau- (kill, strike, destroy), etc.)
- elementem (element, elemento)
Elementum may come from alo (I nourish), which comes from PIE *haele (grow, see PG *alanan (to grow), Olr Irish ailid (nourishes), etc.)
- cylindrus (cylindre, cilindro) only related to Greek kylindros
Kylindros may come from Greek kylindo (roll), which could come from kyklos (circle, wheel), which comes from PIE *kwekwlom (wheel, see PG *hwehwlan (wheel), Avestan caxra- (wheel), Tocharian B kokale (wagon), etc.)
- famulus : Latin word for servant from which "family" is derived. Unrelated to the PIE roots *genhes or *wik
Comes from Oscan famel (dweller of the house, i.e. slave), from PIE *domos (house(hold), see Latin domus (house), Lithuanian namas, Old Church Slavonic domu, etc.)
- farcire (farcire, farcire)
Probably from PIE *bhrakie (squeeze together, make firm, see Middle Irish barc (storm, fury), Latin fartus (thick), Tocharian B *prakre (firm), etc.)
- finis (fin, fine), unrelated to the PIE root *termn-
Related to Old Latin fivo (i fix, fasten), which comes from PIE *dheigw (fix, set up, see PG *dikaz (dam), Lithuanian diegiu (rpick, plant, sow),Latvian diegt, etc.)
- honorem (honeur, onore), not found in other IE languages
From honor, a rhotacized variant of honos (honour), from onus (burden), from PIE *honhes (burden, see Old Indic ana (goods wagon))
- largus (large, largo), unrelated to the PIE *megha or *mehro

- male/malus (mal, male), not related to PIE *ghalh(x)ros nor *hedwol

- metallum (métal, metallo), from Greek metallon, but differs from PIE word *h(a)eyes

- miser (misère, misera), no similarity with other IE languages

- (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.). No IE cognate.

- nigrum (noir, nero), unrelated to the PIE *k(w)rsnos, *mel-n or *keir

- oceanus (ocean, oceano), from Greek oceanos, but no cognates in other IE
Perhaps from Greek okys (swift), which comes from PIE *hekus (fast, see Old Welsh di-auc (not-fast), Latin ocior (faster), Avestan asu-, etc)
- ochra (ocre, ocra), from Greek ochra, but no cognates in other IE

- phrasis (phrase, frase), from Greek phrasis (speech, way of speaking), but doesn't cognate with any IE word

- populus (peuple, popolo), no cognate in other IE languages. Possibly from Etruscan.

- purpura (pourpre, purpureo), from Greek porphyra which is of Semitic origin

- radius (rayon, raggio/radio)

- sanguis (sang, sangue), unrelated to the PIE *bhlo-to

- silens (silence, silenzio), doesn't appear to be IE

- sphæra (sphère, sfera) from Greek sphaira (globe, ball), of unknown origin.

- totus/totalis (total, totale), no IE cognate

- verdis (vert, verde), unrelated to the PIE *ker-, *kr-wos or *modheros, or to the PIE base *ghre- ("grow", from which the Germanic green derives)

- volare (voler, volare), unrelated to the PIE *dih- or *pet-


Greek words

- auto- : prefix meaning "self", doesn't cognate in other IE languages

- mythos : "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

- elektron : Greek word for amber, no cognate in IE

- xanthos : Greek word for yellow, no cognate in IE

- The Greek for "thousand" (kilo or khilias) as well as the Latin one (mille) are unrelated to the PIE root *tuh(a)s-kmtyos found in all Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.
Here are some annotations, I will expand them later.

Yetos
10-12-11, 07:50
Here are more non-IE Latin words, which are said to come from Etruscan:

- arista (arête, arête)
- atrium
- balteus (borrowed into Germanic and gave English the word belt)
- cærimonia (cérémonie, ceremonia)
- fenestra (fenêtre, finestra)
- harena (arène, arena) : originally meaning "sandy place"
- mercatus (marché, mercato) : from merx (wares, merchandise)
- militaris (militaire, militario) : from miles (soldier)
- palatum (palais, palato)
- servire (servir, servire) : from servus (serf, slave)
- vernaculus (vernaculaire, vernacolo) from verna "home-born slave, native".
- vulcanus (volcan, volcano)



ceremonia

well indeed that is strange word
comparing to Greek we find Cerres and monia
compare ηγε-μονια εμ-μονη (εμ-μονια)
Not sure but it may means Cerres the godess The Greek Demeter
something like the elefsinian mysteries, a sacred fair or process to honor godess Cerres
In North greece we also found a godess Sirris and also somewhere in Mesopotamia
Cerres could be Etruscan Godess and in its Pelasgian form could be Sirris



Arena

well there is also an explanation dedicated to Ares (Mars)
comparing Greek πεδιον του Αρεως (Mars field)
if it was Arrena then in Greek means mans only αρρεν = man


Arista
Hmm lets see
in English we see good Better Best
in Greek kalos kalyteros Aristos or Kallistos
meaning aristos means best or something simmilar
compare with Greek aris (sarissa) must be drill so no connection then?
lets split the word to find themes, ar +istos
hmm Ar+esetai so after a split we find the them ar and word could be Ar+esti
comparing virb αρεσω αρεσκομαι and noun αρεστος (desirable)
so we also find root ir in desir
that root ar can be found as best or desirable or unique or Gold in most if not all IE languages

Taranis
13-12-11, 17:15
I would say, one of the best candidates for a Pre-Greek word is the Greek word "thalassa" (sea), which quite contrasts the word for "sea" found in most other European IE branches: Celtic (Welsh "môr"), Germanic (German "Meer"), Italic (Latin "mare") and Slavic (Russian "more").

Yetos
13-12-11, 18:50
I would say, one of the best candidates for a Pre-Greek word is the Greek word "thalassa" (sea), which quite contrasts the word for "sea" found in most other European IE branches: Celtic (Welsh "môr"), Germanic (German "Meer"), Italic (Latin "mare") and Slavic (Russian "more").

θαλασσα is not one word but 2 is Doric Form
In Ionic is θαλαττα

Comparing Homeric and Hesiodic the word is Als
Αλς Nom
Αλος possesive
Αλωι dative
Αλαττα acussative

Meaning the word theme and root is αλαττ and is Female η αλς (compare sea)

Now lets see the nEutral to αλς (compare salt)
to αλς Nom
του αλατος posse
τωι Αλατηι dative
το αλας accus

as you sea both have save form als and alat but different Gender
the θ (th) infront is added later at 4-5 th century BC
Xenophon return of 10 000 (καθοδος μυριων)

so Thalatta means salty

why Θ (τη) and not another latter sound ?

in ancient Greek the hills of sand at seashores are named Θινες Thines (Dunen DUnen Kapas) watch similarity
so compare other words like paralia akrogyalia (παραλια ακρογυαλια)
lets see παρ-αλια (near sea) ακρογυαλια (edge of sea)
same it goes θιν+αλαττα = sandy hills shore (compare Homeric παρα θιν' αλος)

σο Thalatta is a mix word from Dunes and sea meaning sandy Hills shore at original form which by time means sea

It is Clear IE as you see

while dunes and kapras have a difference at least in form

now about sand Greek word from far ancient is σαμιτης (samites) compare islands Samothrake Samos Sami etc
later loses s and becomes Αμμος (ammos)
so sand and ammos have same root althought it is not visual

although a same word ωκεανος Oceanus is not IE but Pelasgian
the word is connected with Latin Aqua Egyptian aswan Turkish su etc

Another word also exist but drop in small usage was Ποντος Pontus
compare pοdles Tumbel? prud? etc

other words that connect also with salt are
salami and allanto
salami means εις αλμη in Greek σαλαμουρα is extra salty water to pasterize (conserve) meat (salt water method)
allanto and αλλαντικο is meat or fish that is conserved by salt (dry salt, no water or boil method)

Taranis
13-12-11, 19:00
Thanks for clarifying this, Yetos.

I think this makes a good point that we should not confuse neologisms with pre-IE words.

Taranis
20-12-11, 14:14
I decided to write a bit on the most fundamental differences between Mycenean Greek and Classical (and Modern) Greek:

presence of the PIE sounds *kw and *gw, which became *p and *b in Classical Greek.
Myc. *gwous > "bous" (ox)
Myc. *(h)ikwo > "hippos" (horse)

- presence of the sound *w, which was largely lost in Classical Greek and existed only vestigially in some dialects.
Myc. *woinos > "oinos" (wine)

Mycenean Greek was written with a syllabary writing system called Linear B, which in itself is derived from the Linear A writing system that was used to write the (undeciphered) Minoan language. This writing system could only improperly represent the Greek language. There is an approximately 400 year period during which the Greeks were an illiterate people between the extinction of the Linear B script and the adoption of the alphabet by the Greeks from the Phoenicians.

Yetos
20-12-11, 15:31
I decided to write a bit on the most fundamental differences between Mycenean Greek and Classical (and Modern) Greek:

presence of the PIE sounds *kw and *gw, which became *p and *b in Classical Greek.
Myc. *gwous > "bous" (ox)
Myc. *(h)ikwo > "hippos" (horse)

- presence of the sound *w, which was largely lost in Classical Greek and existed only vestigially in some dialects.
Myc. *woinos > "oinos" (wine)

Mycenean Greek was written with a syllabary writing system called Linear B, which in itself is derived from the Linear A writing system that was used to write the (undeciphered) Minoan language. This writing system could only improperly represent the Greek language. There is an approximately 400 year period during which the Greeks were an illiterate people between the extinction of the Linear B script and the adoption of the alphabet by the Greeks from the Phoenicians.

my arque is the time which for me 400 is too long
it is about 270 years as relics,
and considering of lost evidences or not found yet might be less

and you know my point that Greek-Pelasgian alphabet and phoenician might be both from another older culture,

now the letters Greeks,
You know that greeks rejected letters, one of them was the διγαμμα F, a double Γ+Γ
so the one in West is F (ph) in Greek might Be sounded W
the sound of (*w) you mention is the sound of Γ mostly since Latin C can not express the Γ sound
Letter Γ sounds like W in words like were was why etc
but lets look at english the sounds
why and who if you write them down in Greek Alphabet is Γουαϊ and Χου
so the same letters wh change sound, that is something not accepted in Greek for non Vowels
since you know Kyme alphabet then you know that C was formed as Γ as lettering symbol.
But C in West never sounds like Γ but as ts (slavic -ic at names), K (coccoa) S (cinema)
by looking at English and German vocabulary we see the words coffee and Kaffee
so which is the sound of C ? in IE languages

the γαμμα and Διγαμμα case you mention is mostly a symbolic

another interesting case the German W which sounds like V in words like Wasser (it sounds like Βασσα) warum (βαρουμ)

in fact the case of Watter and Wasser reminds me the case of Θαλαττα - Θαλασσα - Αλαττα etc
as you even in Germanic languages we have change of tt->ss and not only in Greek
we might also have the P and Q Germanic since w is Γ in English (Q sound) and B in Deutsch (P sound)

ΤΗΕ CASE OF P and Q does not exist only in Celtic
but also in Greek and Germanic languages as lesser phenomenon

let me remind you that Π Β Φ (P V F) belong to same family χειλικα (lips sounds)

on the other hand you are right,
Modern Greek is far from Mycenean
but lets see we have a known language for 3500 years one of the oldest,
meanwhile we have Celtics invasion Thracian connections Roman occupation Christian slaughters Slavic movements venice warragians catalans and Ottoman occupation,
even what left from it it is a miracle,
since you know or try to assume PIE then you are able to know how a anguage change though times and wars and occupations,

Although I admit that Mycenean are considered as a special case of pre- or proto-Greek
But I don't believe that was another language maybe something like dialect which after 270 change to what we call Archaic,
Besides the case of Equus is after how we assume that Linear B symbols were explained,

as you see all IE languages have the tense to transform,
Even with Schools we are unable to stop this,

that was known at Aleandreian philosophers which determined sounds and aspirations, so a non Greek to understand and read,
as you know a good example is letter Ιι which before was γιωτα And after is ιωτα [(γ)ι , ι]

although Alaxandreians create a clear status of writing and reading sounds, that eliminated lower sounds and created new forms, (transformation of language)
IN fact that is the problem of modern Greek language,
to give an example is the υ and ου
ou is a strong fat and long time U (Uranus)
u was a short ου mixed with ι a kind of aspiration or almost sounded
υ In modern is just a sound similar to ι

that Help Greeks to learn read fast since υ has always same sound,
comparing for example english us (u=α) uranus (u=ου)
same letter has 2 sounds,
But changed sounds and eliminated smaller non heard which exist in isolated areas even today,

a good example is the mountain λι and the Athenean λι and makedonian λι
isolated areas in mountains keep pronouncing λι ας i keeps the γ (the sound is ι but the tongue is in place of Γ ) the sound is some like L(w)I
while Athenean losses the (w)
and in few years no one will ever speak the mountain formation, since teachers follow the Athenean sound system,
the makedonian li and letter l is different than rest of all greek it is fat as λλ and long time sound,
it follows the ancient palming tonque L like palming tongue R
it sounds as a vowel sometimes,

the case of oinos woinos

lets see slavic words Vino so w->V
Italian Vino w->V
Germanic wein sounds like V
English wine w->Γ
Armenia gini w->G

as you see the P-Q
or in Greek Γ-Β split exist in all languages,

Taranis
20-12-11, 16:26
my arque is the time which for me 400 is too long
it is about 270 years as relics,
and considering of lost evidences or not found yet might be less

and you know my point that Greek-Pelasgian alphabet and phoenician might be both from another older culture,

now the letters Greeks,
You know that greeks rejected letters, one of them was the διγαμμα F, a double Γ+Γ
so the one in West is F (ph) in Greek might Be sounded W
the sound of (*w) you mention is the sound of Γ mostly since Latin C can not express the Γ sound
Letter Γ sounds like W in words like were was why etc
but lets look at english the sounds
why and who if you write them down in Greek Alphabet is Γουαϊ and Χου
so the same letters wh change sound, that is something not accepted in Greek for non Vowels
since you know Kyme alphabet then you know that C was formed as Γ as lettering symbol.
But C in West never sounds like Γ but as ts (slavic -ic at names), K (coccoa) S (cinema)
by looking at English and German vocabulary we see the words coffee and Kaffee
so which is the sound of C ? in IE languages

the γαμμα and Διγαμμα case you mention is mostly a symbolic

another interesting case the German W which sounds like V in words like Wasser (it sounds like Βασσα) warum (βαρουμ)

in fact the case of Watter and Wasser reminds me the case of Θαλαττα - Θαλασσα - Αλαττα etc
as you even in Germanic languages we have change of tt->ss and not only in Greek
we might also have the P and Q Germanic since w is Γ in English (Q sound) and B in Deutsch (P sound)

ΤΗΕ CASE OF P and Q does not exist only in Celtic
but also in Greek and Germanic languages as lesser phenomenon

let me remind you that Π Β Φ (P V F) belong to same family χειλικα (lips sounds)

on the other hand you are right,
Modern Greek is far from Mycenean
but lets see we have a known language for 3500 years one of the oldest,
meanwhile we have Celtics invasion Thracian connections Roman occupation Christian slaughters Slavic movements venice warragians catalans and Ottoman occupation,
even what left from it it is a miracle,
since you know or try to assume PIE then you are able to know how a anguage change though times and wars and occupations,

Although I admit that Mycenean are considered as a special case of pre- or proto-Greek
But I don't believe that was another language maybe something like dialect which after 270 change to what we call Archaic,
Besides the case of Equus is after how we assume that Linear B symbols were explained,

as you see all IE languages have the tense to transform,
Even with Schools we are unable to stop this,

that was known at Aleandreian philosophers which determined sounds and aspirations, so a non Greek to understand and read,
as you know a good example is letter Ιι which before was γιωτα And after is ιωτα [(γ)ι , ι]

although Alaxandreians create a clear status of writing and reading sounds, that eliminated lower sounds and created new forms, (transformation of language)
IN fact that is the problem of modern Greek language,
to give an example is the υ and ου
ou is a strong fat and long time U (Uranus)
u was a short ου mixed with ι a kind of aspiration or almost sounded
υ In modern is just a sound similar to ι

that Help Greeks to learn read fast since υ has always same sound,
comparing for example english us (u=α) uranus (u=ου)
same letter has 2 sounds,
But changed sounds and eliminated smaller non heard which exist in isolated areas even today,

a good example is the mountain λι and the Athenean λι and makedonian λι
isolated areas in mountains keep pronouncing λι ας i keeps the γ (the sound is ι but the tongue is in place of Γ ) the sound is some like L(w)I
while Athenean losses the (w)
and in few years no one will ever speak the mountain formation, since teachers follow the Athenean sound system,
the makedonian li and letter l is different than rest of all greek it is fat as λλ and long time sound,
it follows the ancient palming tonque L like palming tongue R
it sounds as a vowel sometimes,

the case of oinos woinos

lets see slavic words Vino so w->V
Italian Vino w->V
Germanic wein sounds like V
English wine w->Γ
Armenia gini w->G

as you see the P-Q
or in Greek Γ-Β split exist in all languages,


Yetos,

I said "approximately" 400 years, and I agree the period may have been shorter. What is clear is that there was an illiterate period in Greece, and that the sound changes, seemingly, occured in this intermediate period.

- What do you mean by "Greek-Pelasgian alphabet"? Linear A/B? Please consider that it was not an alphabet, but a syllabary.

- the letter digamma is derived from Phoenician letter Waw (compare with Hebrew ו which has exactly the same value /w/ but different shape, compare יהוה - YHWH).

- Q/P does not exist in Germanic. What Germanic does is that according to the first germanic sound shift, *gw > *kw (PIE *gwen- > English 'queen') and *kw > *hw (PIE *kwod > English 'what').

- the development of water > wasser is a development that is part of the second germanic sound shift, which only affects German (and all of it's dialects, to varying degrees) and (to a much smaller degree) Dutch.

- do not mix up different orthography and different pronounciation.

Yetos
20-12-11, 17:53
that is why I replied

Orthography and Pronounciation must be same according Alexandreians,

Although the one you call second Germanic sound shift might be split similar to Centume satem to a w->Γ and w->V
similar to P and Q
If Universities do not accept it since they have written down sounds that does not mean it does not exist, and how will it be different in years


Just see and compare

Warsow ->Varsovia
Wein -> Vein
wasser-> Vassa
warum ->varum
westfallen -> Vestfallen
ALL W ->V
so why it is problem if qwous goes to Vous

om the other hand
what
where
who
watter
wine

All w -> Γ


Greek always change the letter Κ Γ Χ ανδ Π Β Φ

compare english wh in what and who

now lets see
latin equus Greek ikkos Slavic Kon*

so the ikwo (PIE form as you admit)
if w-> Γ then Ikgos -> ikkos
if w->V then ikvos -> ivvos ->ippos

then why we have split of Greek to P-Q according where w goes?
and not Germanic split also to p-q or Γ-V

why you consider that w->V and w-> Γ in German is shifted
and not in Greek?

the problem is that in the time you mention from Linear B to alphabet that shift was already done,
so alphabet follows writes down the sound after the shift, and I can not guess why?
but comparing mycenean and greek I doubt if it was another language, simply mycenean could more PIE in sounds or used another shift,
it is like English and Deutsch shift of W
both are considered Germanic languages, but they sound different,
if we write them down now today then w will be different from the time that they written

with different orthography

if we create a new alphabet to write down then surely english and Deutsch should be diffrent, that happened to Greek the time you mention
the shift is the same, but orthography is different

Taranis
20-12-11, 23:46
Yetos, you're making assumptions looking from modern Greek onto Classical Greek:

In classical greek, Beta represented /b/. In modern Greek, it represents /v/.

Similar sound shifts have happened with φ, θ, χ:

- "φ" was /pʰ/ and today represents /f/

- "θ" was /tʰ/ and today represents /θ/ (as in English "thin")

- "χ" was /kʰ/ and today represents /x/ (as in Scottish "loch")

Also, *ikwo- is not the PIE form, it is the reconstructed Mycenean form. The PIE word for horse is *ek´wos, with a palatovelar *k´ sound, which became merged with *k in Proto-Greek as it did in the other Centum languages.

Yetos
21-12-11, 15:24
well the Greek sounds are stable from Hellenistic2, meaning about 2000 years,

Greek φ was always φ and not ph
the sound ph was expresses by last number the sanpi π (pi and sanpi)
also θ and χ
the difference among latin -western and Greek is that letters are stable in Greek to a certain sound,

compare loch and charm

about B V Greek Β was always V and never MP
that is why we find Connection among Freek and Latin in ancient words with V
Greek Β is V cause the letters with leaps are V P F and not MP,
Mp uses nose to express it

so greeks prefer clear sounds->symbols


that is the point, we disagree

many times I blame Christians for their genocide against Greeks,
but many times I know that Christians saved Greek language,

The sounds of Greek language are saved through testimonies and ritual of Christian church.
so they are standard at least 2000 and more,
Many linguists in Greeks believe that they are same with archaic except Vowels (ο,ω η,ι,υ αι,οι,υι, ευ,αυ)

so the case you mention of Mycenean and archaic, is mostly true to effort of explanation of Linear B,


I wonder are only the Greeks that have the word Ippos?
or exist a similar word also in another IE language?

Taranis
22-12-11, 08:47
well the Greek sounds are stable from Hellenistic2, meaning about 2000 years,

Greek φ was always φ and not ph
the sound ph was expresses by last number the sanpi π (pi and sanpi)
also θ and χ
the difference among latin -western and Greek is that letters are stable in Greek to a certain sound,

compare loch and charm

about B V Greek Β was always V and never MP
that is why we find Connection among Freek and Latin in ancient words with V
Greek Β is V cause the letters with leaps are V P F and not MP,
Mp uses nose to express it

The pronounciation was clearl changed: the three letters are π β φ, which in Classical Greek represented the sounds /p/, /b/, /ph/.

The PIE sounds were *p, *b and *bh. In Proto-Greek (predating Mycenean Greek!), *bh became *ph.


so greeks prefer clear sounds->symbols

that is the point, we disagree

Yes, you go just from modern-day Greek and assume that it's pronounciation was always the same. It's clear that this was not the case. The most obvious evidence for this is how Greek names were transliterated into Latin. Had Beta already been pronounced as /v/ in ancient time, the Romans like would have transliterated it as "v". This, however, isn't the case.


so the case you mention of Mycenean and archaic, is mostly true to effort of explanation of Linear B,

If Mycenean Greek was representing a pronounciation that was similar to modern-day Greek, then many words would have been spelled completely differently. The problem, as mentioned, is that the script was originally invented for the minoan language and could represent Greek only improperly:

- no distinction between /r/ and /l/

- no distinction between /b/, /p/ and /ph/

- no distinction between /g/, /k/ and /kh/

- no distinction between /t/ and /th/ (on the other hand, /d/ was distinguished).

- no distinction between /gw/ and /kw/
(however, note that /gw/ and /kw/ became /b/ and /p/ in Classical Greek, and that these sounds were clearly distinguished in Mycenean from /b/, /p, /ph/ as I wrote above)


I wonder are only the Greeks that have the word Ippos?
or exist a similar word also in another IE language?

In Celtic, there is Gaulish "epos", Old Irish "ech", Breton "ebeul" and Welsh "ebol"
In Germanic, there is Anglo-Saxon "eoh" and Gothic "aihws" (both from Proto-Germanic "ehwaz")
In Latin, there is "equus".
In Lithuanian, there is "asile".
In Avestan, it is "aspa".
In Sanskrit, it is "asva".
In Tocharian it is "yakwe" (A) and "yuk" (B).

Taranis
23-12-11, 16:29
I've picked up a few more examples to visualize the situation of Mycenean Greek:

Ka-Ko "kʰa(l)ko(s)" > "chalkos" (copper)

I-Qo "ikwo(s)" > (h)ippos (horse)

Qo-U-Ko-Ro "gwoukolo(s)" > boukolos (cow herd)

Yetos
23-12-11, 16:40
I've picked up a few more examples to visualize the situation of Mycenean Greek:

Ka-Ko "kʰa(l)ko(s)" > "chalkos" (copper)

I-Qo "ikwo(s)" > (h)ippos (horse)


Qo-U-Ko-Ro "gwoukolo(s)" > boukolos (cow herd)

and that is again my arque,

why we consider normal shift the w->V at germanic
and not the w->V to Greek and we consider more normal the w->mp =b
i mean Westfallen ->Vestfallen and not
qwukolo ->Voukolos

Taranis
23-12-11, 16:47
and that is again my arque,

why we consider normal shift the w->V at germanic
and not the w->V to Greek and we consider more normal the w->mp =b
i mean Westfallen ->Vestfallen and not
qwukolo ->Voukolos

Again, you are on the wrong track. The shift is not from *w > *v, but from *gw > *b, and much later *b > *v.

Why can't you accept that a sound shift occured between Classical Greek and Modern Greek when it is very evident that this occured?

There's multiple words in English, for instance, which were borrowed from Greek via Latin:

basilica
barbarian
blasphemy
boreal

The word "barbarian" is a particularly good example. Caesar and Tacitus both frequently use the word in their works. Had the Beta already been pronounced /v/, I am pretty sure that the word would have been rendered as "varvarus" in Latin.

Yetos
23-12-11, 17:07
Again, you are on the wrong track. The shift is not from *w > *v, but from *gw > *b, and much later *b > *v. Why can't you accept that a sound shift occured between Classical Greek and Modern Greek when it is very evident that this occured? There's multiple words in English, for instance, which were borrowed from Greek via Latin: basilica barbarian blasphemy boreal and I still believe that they due to letter Β β and b since from koine language the β B is stable V in Greek, either the christian ritual will be total different sounds, the ph sanpi is exting since Greek avoid the -h after another letter prbably from attic language-dialect times, considering that Hellenistic 1 starts after Alexanders Death means that Greek loans to Romans should be more after Hellenistic even the South Italy Greeks are meeting Romans and co-exist in same cities much after Pyrros at about 2nd Century while Hellenistic starts at 4rth century so the B (mp) to latin is a Latin wrong spelling sound due to loan and pass to rest languages, Latin start loan Greek much after Hellenistic1 at least 150-250 years, it more possible that Latin translate Greek β to b A good example why greek β was always V probably from Attic is the from of past of Virbs compare βαινω and εμβαινω and εμβαδον if β was mp the why Greek puts another μ m? how you pronounce a m+mp?

Taranis
23-12-11, 17:15
and I still believe that they due to letter Β β and b
since from koine language the β B is stable V in Greek, either the christian ritual will be total different sounds,

the ph sanpi is exting since Greek avoid the -h after another letter prbably from attic language-dialect times,

considering that Hellenistic 1 starts after Alexanders Death
means that Greek loans to Romans should be more after Hellenistic

even the South Italy Greeks are meeting Romans and co-exist in same cities much after Pyrros at about 2nd Century
while Hellenistic starts at 4rth century

so the B (mp) to latin is a Latin wrong spelling sound due to loan
and pass to rest languages,

Latin start loan Greek much after Hellenistic1 at least 150-250 years,
it more possible that Latin translate Greek β to b

Well, you are clearly wrong. As I said, if it was pronounced /v/ in Greek at the time, you can be certain it would have been rendered as such into Latin. After all, Latin possessed the /v/ sound in Classical Antiquity already, alongside with /b/.

Yetos
23-12-11, 17:23
Well, you are clearly wrong. As I said, if it was pronounced /v/ in Greek at the time, you can be certain it would have been rendered as such into Latin. After all, Latin possessed the /v/ sound in Classical Antiquity already, alongside with /b/.

ok lets look at words
Greek Βαινω Latin Veni

so the before connection β is translated to V but the after goes b


considering inner Greek words

Makedoian Batraxos Vatrachos βατραχος
Makedonian bereniki Vereniki Βερενικη
Makedonian Kevali Κεβαλη (compare slavic glava)
Ionian αφορθακος af(ph)orthakos
F(ph)ereniki Φερενικη
Κεφαλη Kef(ph)ali

since b ->mp how much possible is to be f (ph)
V is more easier to become f than mp to f,

Taranis
23-12-11, 17:33
ok lets look at words
Greek Βαινω Latin Veni

so the before connection β is translated to V but the after goes b

You are wrong. Latin "veni" is not a borrowing of Greek "baino", but the cognate. In Latin, PIE *gw > *v. Compare with English "to come" (*gw > *kw > *k), Lithuanian "gimti" (to be born) (*gw > *g)

Why do you insist so adamantly on the idea that the Greek language is unchanged over 2000 years, when it is very clear that this isn't the case?

Yetos
23-12-11, 18:13
You are wrong. Latin "veni" is not a borrowing of Greek "baino", but the cognate. In Latin, PIE *gw > *v. Compare with English "to come" (*gw > *kw > *k), Lithuanian "gimti" (to be born) (*gw > *g)

Why do you insist so adamantly on the idea that the Greek language is unchanged over 2000 years, when it is very clear that this isn't the case?


Greek βαινω latin Veni
greek βια latin Vim

as you see all the words that are not loan have β->v
all the words that are Loan have β->μπ ->b

if I search i will find you many words,

All the Greek linguists say that only the Vowels ω ι υ αι οι υι have changed and

it is impossible to change since even the saved one in Latin keep these sounds
compare Evangelium ευαγγελιον υ->v

it is impossible that non vowels change since if then connection of ancient Grammar does not work
for example n+b does exist in Greek so it goes m+b but if m+mp then sound does not follow greek harmony and rythm tone,

2 the Christian new testament was written in koine Hellenistic 2,
it is impossible Christians who could slain for Christ to leave changes happen
the rythm of songs change if b was mp
spelling and pronouncation was basic in Greek theological schools,
that means that non vowel sounds never changed

it is like claiming that Latin change from translation Itala

so we are certain of sounds of Latin and Greek hellenistic for at least 2 000 years,

now the point when changes happened if happened

at least for Greek should be among attic to Hellenistic 1 or which I also believe from archaic to attic.

for latin I do not know ,

but the b as mp I am sure that from Latin adoption of sound
cause from older forms as I proved above B=V
only in loan words b=mp

It is obvious that did not change
no matter if that may destroy PHD's

compare Greek αβατον and Latin Avaton


the most characteristic word after christianity meaning about 2000 years

if β was b then abaton

so only in some loan words mainly by romans was β to b as adoption and loan word,
and from them spread to rest

the word economy is modern worldwide
but we can not use it to say that Greek οι was e sound
neither the word ecology to claim that Greek οικολογια is not correct
eco- is a western sound of Greek οικο- according their familiar sounds
if I say βολκσβάγκεν μερσεντές (Volkswagen mercedes) to Deutsch surely he laugh from my sounds, but adoptation of a foreign language must sound good to my ears,





I insist cause the same shift or drop of w ->V that happens in Germanic had happened in Greek also, and in many other IE languages, but not as b.

Taranis
23-12-11, 18:58
Well, let me ask you then, why is it then that words which include *b in PIE are also rendered with a β in Greek?

for example, Classical Greek kymbē (bowl) vs. Latin "cambio" or English "hump"?

The answer is very simple, because both the *b inherited from PIE and the *b derived from Mycenean *gw were rendered as *v in Greek. It's also clear that this development occured after the Classical period.

Also, bear in mind that the Latin letter "B" ultimately derives from Greek Beta, which in turn derives from Phoenician Beth. It would make no sense what so ever if the value in Greek would have been /v/.


it is impossible that non vowels change since if then connection of ancient Grammar does not work

You are very wrong here. Germanic languages had multiple consonant shifts. The Romance languages had multiple consonant shifts. Why should the Greek language somehow be magically immune when it clearly wasn't?

Regarding Christianity, you know that the New Testament wasn't written until the late 1st / early 2nd century AD, and Christianity didn't become a mainstream religion in the Roman Empire until the 4th century AD.

Also, if we go back to Mycenean, it does make sense for Qa/Qe/Qi etc. to represent both *kw and *gw because they are the unvoiced and voiced versions of the same sound.

If you (incorrectly) assume that Mycenean was pronounced just like modern Greek, why would they use the same syllabic signs to write *p and *v? That makes absolutely no sense.

The only way this works out is that it was *gw in Mycenean, *b in Classical Greek, and *v in modern Greek.

Yetos
23-12-11, 23:06
Well, let me ask you then, why is it then that words which include *b in PIE are also rendered with a β in Greek?

for example, Classical Greek kymbē (bowl) vs. Latin "cambio" or English "hump"?

The answer is very simple, because both the *b inherited from PIE and the *b derived from Mycenean *gw were rendered as *v in Greek. It's also clear that this development occured after the Classical period.

Also, bear in mind that the Latin letter "B" ultimately derives from Greek Beta, which in turn derives from Phoenician Beth. It would make no sense what so ever if the value in Greek would have been /v/.



You are very wrong here. Germanic languages had multiple consonant shifts. The Romance languages had multiple consonant shifts. Why should the Greek language somehow be magically immune when it clearly wasn't?

Regarding Christianity, you know that the New Testament wasn't written until the late 1st / early 2nd century AD, and Christianity didn't become a mainstream religion in the Roman Empire until the 4th century AD.

Also, if we go back to Mycenean, it does make sense for Qa/Qe/Qi etc. to represent both *kw and *gw because they are the unvoiced and voiced versions of the same sound.

If you (incorrectly) assume that Mycenean was pronounced just like modern Greek, why would they use the same syllabic signs to write *p and *v? That makes absolutely no sense.

The only way this works out is that it was *gw in Mycenean, *b in Classical Greek, and *v in modern Greek.

That is what I arque,

All Greek Linguists consider Mycenean as a pre-proto Greek
But Greek is after Hellenic and Hellanas river, (land of Driopes)

I am not arque that Mycenean might have different sound, I am arque about how certain these sounds are,
as symbols and sounds.
consider if β was beta the ancient pray to sun does existin alphabet,
if a is alef then we lose the Αλ φα βη τα γα μα δε ελ τα εψ ιλων etc

in case that βη order of virb βαινω was b or beth or beta then same virb in Latin should also be Beni and not Veni, although in English we see go -went so w->V
if you also compare the other words of inner Greek I gave and the example Vim-Via etc
you realise that w is shifted or Drop to V in both, or 3 including Germanic,

W in Greek is shifted either to Γ or β (v) as the rest,
Myceneans could have shifted to Γ so is possible to be K

My argue is that w-> B is wrong, but w->V is correct at least in Greek,
cases of clear B to become β(V) i do not deny,

simply I am certain and I believe you are that Greek non vowels have not changed from at least Koine,

it is like telling me that Latin of 100 Ad is not the latin we know today,

No matter you try to convice me, I believe that you also disagree that sounds change after a clear sound at Bibliotheques and schools and monasteries and so many readers and priests etc,

β was always V at least from attic and later,

about Archaic most Greek linguists tottaly agree as you say that we first time find a clear Hellenic language with its dialects,
although Archaic since attic we have big changes,

these changes stop after Attic and Hellenistic1 and only vowels change to hellenistic 2 and after,

so as sounds Greek is stable to ancient sounds, at least 2000 years,
either that suits or not that is fact,
the case of b->V might happened from 1200 - 450 BC or even to 100 BC
but the case of w->V or w->Γ happened much before, probably the time you mention, 1200 - 900 BC

But not from w->B even qw->B qw-> should go either Γ and after Κ ΚΚ ΓΓ
or Σβ and then β ββ
in fact consider that the Bulls shit is Σβωνεα (κοπρος) Svonea and milk is Γαλα ( Ι still don't know origin But I believe means either peacefull either white, although you gave me an idea of qwοus ->Γ )

Yetos
24-12-11, 01:32
The Lemnean stele

in the lemnean Stele we find the word AVIS (years)

the greek word for year is etos but the word for a complete circle of life is βιος vios
now the word entered as lingua franga to science as Bio-logy

the same mistake that happened in Latin with Bassilca etc
happened again with Biology

except if in lemnean stele the written is not avis but Abis

the co-existance of b and v in Greek is obvious
many older words with common or not root word with Greek β may have Latin V
but most loans have Latin Β
the problem is that Greeks may transform B to β
but all Greek words with β went as b to west

Taranis
24-12-11, 03:15
The Lemnean stele

in the lemnean Stele we find the word AVIS (years)

the greek word for year is etos but the word for a complete circle of life is βιος vios
now the word entered as lingua franga to science as Bio-logy

the same mistake that happened in Latin with Bassilca etc
happened again with Biology

except if in lemnean stele the written is not avis but Abis

the co-existance of b and v in Greek is obvious
many older words with common or not root word with Greek β may have Latin V
but most loans have Latin Β
the problem is that Greeks may transform B to β
but all Greek words with β went as b to west

Sorry, but you're wrong. What is written on the Lemnos Stelae is this:

"ζιϝαι αϝις σιαλχϝις μαραζμ αϝις αομαι"

"ziwai awis sialχwis marazm awis aomai"

( Note that Chi is actually written as Ψ and that Omicron actually represents Etruscan/Tyrsenian /u/ and not /o/. )

In otherwords, the letter Digamma, not Beta is used here to represent Etruscan/Tyrsenian "v". You can see it below (the line in question is the column on the far right):

5424

Yetos
24-12-11, 11:32
exactly Digamma F W is connected with V and not with B Ancient Greek Βιος sound as Vios compapring Avis

you have just proved that F W -> V but in Greek V = B,

the Awis ->avis ->βιος,

thank you,

Taranis
24-12-11, 13:08
exactly Digamma F W is connected with V and not with B Ancient Greek Βιος sound as Vios compapring Avis

you have just proved that F W -> V but in Greek V = B,

the Awis ->avis ->βιος,

thank you,

No, you're wrong. the original sound of Beta was /b/. Had it already been /v/ at that time, the Lemnians would have used the letter Beta to transliterate the Tyrsenian /v/:

"αβις" instead of "αϝις"

Since this isn't the case, it is pretty clear that Greek Beta was pronounced as /b/ by the time that the Lemnos stelae was produced (6th century BC). The development we see in Greek is *gw > *b > *v, and in my opinion the development of *b > *v did not occur until after the Hellenistic period.

Radamanto
09-10-12, 03:21
To everybody,
I devoted my last decade to trace it back Pre-Greek words in Greek language. Beekes' PDF was really helpful. Among them, I finally matched one of the most enigmatic word: Βασιλεύς (gʷasileus / qa-si-re-u in Mycenaean inscriptions). It still used even nowdays in the original form (gʷ) and meaning.

Arame
20-04-15, 15:29
Hrach Martirosyan an Armenian linguist call it a Mediteranean substratum
An excerpt from his paper
https://www.academia.edu/4197641/The_place_of_Armenian_in_the_Indo-European_language_family_the_relationship_with_Gre ek_and_Indo-Iranian

6.2. Armenian and Greek: isolated words.
These words have no Indo-European etymologies and may therefore be treated as words
of substrate origin, that is to say, common borrowings from an unknown language (for a dis-
cussion of the substrate, see section 7).
6.2.1. *antȹ(­r)- ‘coal’: Arm. ant‘-eł ‘hot coal, ember’ (Łazar P‘arpec‘i, Hexaemeron, etc.),
dial. *ant‘(e)ł-oc‘ ‘metal rod for poking or stirring a fire, poker’, dial. *ant‘-(a)r- ‘coal, ember’ in
*ant‘-r-oc‘ and *ant‘-ar-oc‘ ‘poker’ (note also ant‘ayr ‘spark’ in Ba girk‘ hayoc‘ and NHB, proba-
bly from *ant‘-ar- V­); Gr. ἄνθραξ m. ‘charcoal’.123
6.2.2. *drepan-eh2: Arm. artewan-un-k‘, gen.pl. artewan-a-(n)c‘ ‘eyelashes; eyebrow’ (Bible+),
Gr. δρεπάνη, δρέπανον ‘sickle’ (from δρέπω ‘to pluck, cut off’). According to this fascinating
etymology suggested by de Lamberterie (1983; 1992: 239; 2013: 22), the human eyebrow
(and/or eyelash, see below) is taken as sickle-shaped.124
The basic meaning of artewanunk‘ is usually presented as ‘eyelid’ since it usually corre-
sponds to Gr. βλέφαρον ‘eyelid’ in the Bible. NHB and HAB, however, describe the Armenian
word as ‘eyelashes’, and so does de Lamberterie (1983: 21) in French, ‘cils’. Indeed, in some
biblical passages ‘eyelash’ (or ‘eyebrow’) would make more sense than ‘eyelid’, e.g. Proverbs
6.25 (mí yap‘štakic‘is artewanambk‘ nora “do not be captivated with her eyelashes/eyebrows”) or
Jeremiah 9.18 (ew artewanunk‘ jer błxesc‘en ǰur “and let your eyelashes drop water”). Note also
that the derivatives of Gr. βλέφαρον display a semantic vacillation between ‘eyelid’ and ‘eye-
lash’. And finally, a few passages from original (non-translated) literary sources make the
meaning ‘eyelash’ quite clear (e.g. maz artewanac‘ “hair of eyelashes”).
In a remarkable passage from Movsēs Xorenac‘i 2.42 we reed: “a multitude of vineyards
resembled the beautiful crescent of thick lashes (zartewananc‘ xit ew gełec‘ik cir); on the northern
side its curved form truly imitated the arching brows of charming maidens (geławor kusic‘
yōnic‘)” (transl. Thomson 2006: 180). We can see that artewanunk‘ cannot mean ‘eyelid’ here since
it is compared to vineyards. Nor does it mean ‘eyebrow’ since the latter is present here by its
main designation, yōnk‘. There can be no doubt that Thomson’s translation as ‘eyelash’ is correct.
6.2.3. *sepȹ-s- or *seps- ‘to boil, cook’: Arm. ep‘em ‘to cook, boil’; Gr. ἕψω ‘to boil, seethe (of
meat and the like); to smelt, refine (of metals)’.125
6.2.4. *t(a)rp-eh2: Arm. t‘arp‘ / t‘arb (abl. i t‘arb-ē) ‘large wicker fishing-basket, creel’, Gr.
τάρπη f., ταρπός, τερπός m., ταρπόνη f. ‘large wicker basket’; probably a common borrowing
from a lost source.126
6.2.5. * in l(u)m- ‘hinge’: Arm. cłxni, ea­stem (loc.sg. i cłxnw-oǰ, gen.dat.pl. cłxn-e-ac‘), čxni,
čx/łan, dial. člxan ‘door hinge’; Gr. γί(γ)γλυμος m. (dimin. γι(γ)γλύμιον n.) ‘hinge, joint, pivot,
gudgeon’. Mediterranean word (Martirosyan 2012). (HM)
6.2.6. *kalam- ‘aspen; plane’: Arm. kaǻamax(i) ‘white poplar, aspen’; Gr. καλαμίν-δαρ·
πλάτανος ἡδονιεῖς ‘plane’, obviously with *dar ‘tree’ (Hesychius); in neighbouring non-Indo-
European languages: Salmast Turk. k‘äläm-bär ‘aspen’, T‘avriz Turk. qälämä ‘poplar’; in Dagh-
estan languages: Lak kalaxi, Rutul kalax ‘aspen’. For the semantic relationship, cf. Arm. čandar
‘poplar’ and ‘plane’; op‘i ‘poplar, aspen’ and Łarabaǻ *hop‘i ‘plane’. The ending ­ax in Armenian
may be a suffix, possibly seen also in meǻ-ex ‘the handle of an axe’ (if related with Gr. μελία
‘manna ash, ashen spear’) and taws-ax ‘box-tree’. The correspondence Arm. k vs. Gr. κ here and
in a few of the lexemes that follow points to a later stage of Mediterranean substrate vocabulary.
6.2.7. *kast(an)- ‘chestnut’: Arm. kask-eni ‘chestnut-tree’ if from *kast-(u)k-eni (for the suf-
fix, cf. hačar-uk and dial. hačar-k-i ‘beech-tree’); Gr. κάστανον n. ‘chestnut’, καστανέα f. ‘chest-
nut-tree’.
6.2.8. *karid- ‘crayfish’: Arm. karič, a­stem ‘scorpion’, dial. ‘crayfish’ < *karid- ā f.; Gr.
κᾱρίς, ­ίδος, ­ῖδος (also κουρίς, κωρίς) f., probably a general term for small crustaceans, in-
cluding shrimp and prawn. For the (old feminine) suffix *­ieh2, note Arm. dial. *mormonǰ ‘ant’ <
*mormon- eh2 (cf. morm ‘tarantula’ and Gr. Μορμώv ‘bogey, bugbear’, see § 6.4.8). Note also
Arm. kor, gen. kor-i ‘scorpion’ (Dersim dial. g r-ǰ), which is reminiscent of the Greek by-forms
κουρίς, κωρίς.
6.2.9. *gorio- ‘drain’: Arm. kori ‘drain, channel’, Gr. γοργύριον n. ‘subterranean channel’. (HM)
6.2.10. *gɀ(e)m/bȹur eh2 ‘bridge’: Arm. kamurǰ, a­stem ‘bridge’, Gr. γέφῡρα f. (Boeot. βέφυρα,
Cret. δέφυρα, Lac. δίφουρα) ‘bridge’; in non-Indo-European languages: Hatt. amuru(wa)
‘beam’, Abkhaz *qɀ (m)b l -ra ‘beam over the hearth, cross-beam’, etc. The Proto-Armenian
theoretical by-form *kaburǰ- may have been reflected in Urart. qaburzani possibly meaning
‘bridge’ in a recently discovered inscription.
6.2.11. *mos ȹ-o/io- ‘young bovine’: Arm. mozi ‘young bovine, calf’,127 dial. mozi or di-
minutive mozik, mostly ‘male or female calf’, in some dialects: ‘young ox’, ‘female foal, filly’,
‘young buffalo’; Gr. μόσχος m.f. ‘calf, young bull, any young animal’, metaphorically ‘boy’ or
‘girl, maid’, m. ‘young shoot or twig’, μοσχάς, ­άδος f. ‘shoot, slip; heifer’, μοσχίας ‘like a calf
(used of any young animal); three-year-old ram’; diminutives: μοσχίον ‘young calf’, μοσχίδιον
‘small shoot’, μοσχ-άριον n. ‘young calf’.1
...
6.2.13. *(H)olur-: Arm. oloṙn, an-stem ‘pea, bean’, dial. hǘlì( ) n (Goris, Łarabaǻ hǘlì n );
Gr. ὄλυραι f. pl. ‘spelt; rice-wheat’ (cf. Akkad. allūru, i/ullūru, etc.).
6.2.14. *osp- ‘pulse, legumen’: Arm. ospn, an-stem ‘lentil’, Gr. ὄσπριον n. ‘pulse, legumen’.132
6.2.15. *pɁortȹo- or *(t)portȹo- ‘sprout, young twig’: Arm. ort‘, o­stem ‘vine’, Gr. πτόρθος m.
‘sprout, shoot, young twig’, πόρθος· πτόρθος, κλάδος, βλάστος (Hesychius).133
6.2.16. *kȹsan-t(e)r- ‘wool-carder, comb’: Arm. santr / sandr, ins.sg. santr-o-v (Łazar
P‘arpec‘i 3.61), abl.sg. i sandr-ē (Ephrem) ‘comb; weaver’s comb’, dial. sander-k‘ (Karin santr-ì-
k‘) ‘weaver’s large comb’;134 Gr. ξαίνω ‘to card, comb wool’, ξάντης m. ‘wool-carder’ξάντριαι
(title of a play by Aeschylus).135 In view of the incompatibility of the Armenian initial s- with
Greek *ks- in Indo-European terms, this comparison is considered to be uncertain.136 I assume
that we are dealing with a substrate word: *kȹsan-t(e)r- > Arm. sandr, pl. sander-k‘.
6.2.17. *si/ekȹu- ‘melon, gourd’: Arm. sex (gen. sexoy in Hexaemeron) ‘melon’, Gr. σικύα,
Ion. ­ύη f. ‘bottle-gourd, round gourd; gourd used as a calabash’, σέκουα ‘id.’ (Hesychius),
σίκυος, σικυός m., σίκυς f. ‘cucumber’, σίκυος πέπων ‘a kind of gourd or melon, not eaten till
quite ripe’. The relationship with Russ. týkva ‘pumpkin’ and Lat. cucumis ‘cucumber’ is unclear.
6.2.18. * eno-/* en(e) o-: Arm. sin, o­stem ‘empty’, Gr. Att. κενός and Ion. κεινός from
*κεν ός, Epic κενε( )ό, ‘empty, idle’.
6.2.19. *ste/oibo- or *ste/ibeh2: Arm. stēp, o­stem, a­stem ‘haste, alacrity; zeal, diligence; fre-
quent, frequently; hastily, quickly, stipem ‘to constrain, compel, force; to urge, hasten’; Gr.
στείβω ‘to tread (on something), densify by treading, trod, trample, trend’, στοιβή f. ‘stuffing,
cushion, bulge’, στίβος m. ‘trodden road, path, footstep, trail’. The appurtenance of OLith.
staibus ‘strong, brave’ and other cognates is uncertain.137
6.2.20. *srungȹ- ‘snout, nostrils’: Arm. ṙungn, mostly pl. ṙng-un-k‘, instr. ng-am-b-k‘,
*ṙung-k‘, a­stem ‘nostrils’; Gr. ῥύγχος, ῥύγχεος n. ‘snout (e.g. of a pig), muzzle, beak’.
6.2.21. *ps(e)ud-e/os-: Arm. sut, o­stem ‘false; falsehood, lie’, Gr. ψεῦδος n. ‘lie’, also ψύδος.
6.2.22. *skórp-i­, gen. *(s)k p-i-ós: Arm. k‘arb, i­stem ‘basilisk, asp’; Gr. σκορπίος m. ‘scor-
pion; a sea-fish’, σκορπίς, ­ίδος f. ‘a sea-fish’. These words have been claimed to be derived
from IE *(s)ker(­p)- ‘to cut’: Arm. k‘er-(t‘)­, k‘er-b/p‘- ‘to scratch, chop, carve’, Gr. κείρω ‘to cut
(off), shave, mow off, ravage’, OHG sceran ‘to cut’, OEngl. sceorfan ‘to scratch’, etc. However,
scholars are now more inclined towards a substrate origin.

Arame
20-04-15, 15:34
There are also some substratic words in Armenian , Albanian and Greek

6.3. Armenian, Greek and Albanian.
6.3.1. *h2n(e/ōr) o- ‘dream’: Arm. anurǰ-k‘, i­stem, o­stem ‘dream, day-dream, prophetic vi-
sion, vision’; Gr. ὄνειρος m. ‘god of dreams, dream’, Aeol. ὄνοιρος m., Cret. ἄναιρον· ὄνειρον,
cf. ὄναρ n. ‘dream’, especially ‘fortune-telling dream, vision’, ἄναρ· ὄναρ (Hesychius); Alb.
âdërrë (Geg.), ëndërrë (Tosc.) ‘dream’ from *andërrë < *Hnr- o/ā­. Probably derived from PIE
*h2enh1­ ‘to breathe’ > ‘(vital) breath, energy’ (de Lamberterie 2012a).
6.3.2. *bȹe/or-(e)n- ‘load’: Arm. beṙn, gen. be in, ins. be am-b, vom.pl. be in-k‘ ‘burden, load;
bag, sack; freight, cargo’;138 Gr. φερνή f., Aeol. φέρενᾰ ‘dowry’, Dor. φερνά f. ‘god’s share at
the sacrifice’, Alb. bárrë ‘burden, load; freight, load; foetus’ < *bȹor-neh2; with a different mean-
ing: Lith. bérnas ‘boy, (farmer’s) servant’, Latv. bę̀rns ‘child, baby’; with o-grade: Goth. and OIc.
barn n. ‘child’ < “what was borne”.139 This word is a verbal noun from PIE *bȹer- ‘to bring, bear’.
...
6.3.3. *gȹrī(dȹ) ‘barley’: Arm. gari, ea­stem, o­stem ‘barley’; Gr. κριθ-ή f. ‘barley-corns’, usu-
ally pl. ‘barley’, from an original root noun *κρῑθ > Ep. κρῖ n.; Alb. drithë ‘cereals, wheat, bar-
ley’. A different formation: Lat. hordeum ‘barley’, OHG gersta ‘barley’, and Hitt. karaš n. ‘wheat,
emmer-wheat’.140
6.3.4. *sk(ȹ)odoro- or *sk(ȹ)orodo- ‘garlic’: Arm. xstor, i­stem and o­stem, sxtor ‘garlic’; Gr.
σκόρ(ο)δον n. ‘garlic’, Alb. húrdhë, also húdhër (Schriftsprache) f. ‘garlic’.

Arame
20-04-15, 15:39
A lot more for Armenian, Greek and Latin.
He call this the Mediterranean or Mediterranean-Pontic substratum but whose origin is most probably in Asia Minor.

6.4. Armenian, Greek and Latin.
6.4.1. *bȹrug/ - ‘dewlap’: Arm. erbuc, o­stem ‘breast of animals’, Gr. φάρυγξ, gen. ­υγος,
­υγγος ‘throat; dewlap of a bull’, Lat. frūmen ‘throat’ < *frūg-smen.
6.4.2. *el(e/a)iw- vel sim. ‘olive, oil’: Arm. ewǻ, gen. iwǻ-oy, dial. *eǻ ‘oil’; Gr. ἐλαίᾱ, Att.
ἐλ α, Ion. ἐλαίη f. ‘olive-tree; olive’, ἔλαιος m. ‘wild olive’, ἔλαιον n. ‘olive-oil; anointing-oil;
any oily substance’; Lat. oleum n. ‘olive-oil; oil’.
6.4.3. *ptel- ‘elm’: Arm. t‘eǻi ‘elm’; Gr. πτελέ-α, Ion. ­η ‘elm, Ulmus glabra’; cf. also Lat.
tilia ‘linden’.
6.4.4. *tȹuōi o- or *tū(i) o- ‘fig’: Arm. t‘uz, o­stem ‘fig’, dial. (Aslanbek and Ozim) ‘female
genitals’; Gr. σῦκον, Boeotian τῦκον n. ‘fig; pudenda muliebria, female genitals’; Lat. fīcus, ī and
ūs, f. ‘fig; fig-tree’.
6.4.5. *h1ul(e/o)h1r-o- n.pl. *­h2 ‘rope, thong, rein’: Arm. lar, o­, i- and a­stems ‘rope, rein, ca-
ble, cord, string; plumbline of stone-masons; snare; tendons of the neck; string of a musical in-
strument’; Gr. εὔληρα, Dor. αὔληρα, Hesychian ἀβληρά n.pl. ‘reins’; Lat. lōrum, ­ī, n. ‘thong,
rawhide whip, rein’. We can reconstruct a Proto-Armenian paradigm *ulár-o­, pl. *ulár-a.
6.4.6. *g gt- ‘milk’: Arm. kat‘n, gen. kat‘in, instr. kat‘am-b ‘milk’, Gr. γάλα, γάλακτος n.
‘milk’, Lat. lac, lactis n. ‘milk’. The *­l- has been preserved in the Armenian dialects of Agulis
and Meǻri, where we find kaxc‘ pointing to *kaǻc‘ (the development a > Agulis has been
blocked in position before ǻ). Kak‘avaberd has kaxc‘ in the village of Varhavar vs. kát‘n in the
other three villages of the region. The conditions responsible for the loss or preservation of the
*­l- are not clear.141 Nevertheless, I do not think that this comparison should be abandoned.142
We are probably dealing with a cultural word of Mediterranean origin.
6.4.7. *mor- ‘blackberry’: Arm. mor, gen. mor-i ‘blackberry (fruit of the bramble)’, mor-(en)i
‘bramble, blackberry (plant, shrub)’, dial. mor-m-eni ‘blackberry’, mo(r)š(­i) ‘tamarisk; black-
berry, bramble’; Gr. μόρον n. ‘black mulberry; blackberry’, μορέα, ­έη f. ‘mulberry-tree, Morus
nigra’; Lat. mōrum, ī, n. ‘fruit of the black mulberry’, mōrus, ī, f. ‘black mulberry-tree’ (some-
times considered a Greek loanword).143
6.4.8. *mor-m- ‘she-monster, spinning demon/goddess’: MidArm. and dial. mor-m and
mor(i) ‘spider, tarantula, phalangium’; Gr. Μορμώ, ­όος ­οῦς, Μορμώv, ­όνος f. ‘she-monster,
bogey’ (also used by nurses to frighten children), generally ‘bugbear’, Lat. formīdō, inis f. ‘fear,
terror; a thing which frightens, bogey’. (HM)
The Greek and Latin words are related, either etymologically or secondarily, with the
word for ‘ant’, cf. Lat. formīca f. ‘ant’, Gr. μύρμηξ, ­ηκος, Dor. μύρμᾱξ, ­ᾱκος m. ‘ant; fabulous
animal in India’ (by-forms: μύρμος, βύρμαξ, βόρμαξ, ὅρμικας), etc. This connection or confla-
tion becomes quite transparent in view of the following forms and meanings: μυρμήκ-ειον n. a
species of φαλάγγιον, the latter being ‘a kind of venomous spider, especially Lathrodectus or
malmignatte’, μυρμήκ-ιον n. ‘a species of spider’. Note also μόρμορος and μύρμος ‘panic fear’
(glossed by φόβος in Hesychius), the former of which strikingly resembles Armenian dialect of
Polis/Stambul *mo mo oz, Crimea and Nor Naxiǰewan *m m as ‘Easter bogey’.
...
6.4.9. *spȹongos / *pȹsongos ‘sponge, mushroom’: Arm. sunk/gn ‘(tree­)mushroom’, Gr.
σπόγγος, σφόγγος m. ‘sponge; any spongy substance, e.g. tonsils’, Lat. fungus m. ‘fungus,
mushroom’.



There are also some common substratic words in Armenian, Greek one side and Germanic, Celtic and Balto-Slavic on ther other side but it is not relevant to this thread so a person interested can read here
https://www.academia.edu/4197641/The_place_of_Armenian_in_the_Indo-European_language_family_the_relationship_with_Gre ek_and_Indo-Iranian

Arame
20-04-15, 15:49
Unfortunately he don't give common Armenian Iranian words from substratic origin. I bet if they exist ( i think they exist ) they would be related to Hurrian. Also some Greco-Armenian substratic words could have a Hurrian origin.

vadimfv
22-04-15, 01:54
Hey guys -

I'm glad you mention "nigrum" (niger) as one of the Latin words of possible non-PIE origin (although I've seen it listed in one place as possibly descending from PIE nekw-t).

I'm having this horrible internet battle with a deluded Afrocentrist about his theory that the Latin word "niger" came from Africa..from the name word that birthed the name for the Niger River (Berber "n-gher" or Tuareg "n-egerew" meaning river or watercourse). He somehow "deduces" that because the river had that name, and people from the Niger River region were black, that Classical Latin "picked up" a new word for black (niger) other than the terms that Latin already had (such as 'ater'). I've basically proved him wrong ..but it was still rather annoying.

And so I'd be interested to know if there are any good theories about where Latin "nigrum" came from if not
from PIE. Are there other Italic cognates (like in Oscan or Umbrian). Did it come from Etruscan or Vasconic?
I can't find anything online (other than the vague 'nekw-t' reference), but I really want to put the final nail
in the coffin of this Afrocentric guy's theory.

Let me know at my e-mail address aestheticparlour at gmail dot com if you have any ideas. thanks!

vadimfv
22-04-15, 09:52
No, you're wrong. the original sound of Beta was /b/. Had it already been /v/ at that time, the Lemnians would have used the letter Beta to transliterate the Tyrsenian /v/:

"αβις" instead of "αϝις"

Since this isn't the case, it is pretty clear that Greek Beta was pronounced as /b/ by the time that the Lemnos stelae was produced (6th century BC). The development we see in Greek is *gw > *b > *v, and in my opinion the development of *b > *v did not occur until after the Hellenistic period.

Wow, guys - I'm amazed that Yetos is sticking it out this long with his lack of understanding ancient Greek.
Even I know that the importance of the Lemnos stele lies in its similarity to Etruscan (awis = avils) in establishing some kind of tentative Tyrsenian pre-IE language group.
And I also know that digamma had the sound value of "w" because it came directly from Phoenician waw.
There's no "v" involved anywhere - it's definitely pronounced "awis". And Taranis..I have to admit that I don't
know if Latin had an original "v" sound but I'm used to hearing that Latin "v" was pronounced "w". So Etruscan avils was probably also pronounced "awils". Right? Anyway, of course languages change, that's a given.

If anyone has any insight into the "niger" origin thing, let me know!

RobertColumbia
22-07-15, 09:53
...
...
- xanthos : Greek word for yellow, no cognate in IE

- The Greek for "thousand" (kilo or khilias) as well as the Latin one (mille) are unrelated to the PIE root *tuh(a)s-kmtyos found in all Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.

Mille looks like it may have a cognate in Irish, as in céad míle fáilte (hundred thousand welcomes). That same phrase also clearly has a cognate for "centum" (cf. English "hundred" via Grimm's Law).

Could xanthos be related to andros (man) or anthos (flower)? Both of those things are often yellow or yellowish.

Nicolas V
22-08-17, 00:25
Many linguistic interpretations are either ideological or mere "καλαμπούρια"
Hard work is still necessary (and require team work)
1. to group and classify all spelling "errors" by region (North Greece, Magna Grecia, Islands, Cyprus etc) and centuries from the 4BC to 3nd AD. Some times, even Latin can help to determine the pronunciation sounds, e.g. Egéon, Egyptos, etc, etc were never a-i. Please also review the names of the cities of Sicilia and Magna Grecia.
2. Please accept the fact that Greeks were not alone in this world. On the edge of the "hellenic settlements" sounds like the βήτα, the B V sounds; are still mildly confused in Castillan and Catalan (bolivar or volivar, Habana or Havana). On the other geographic end, in Persian and Kurdish there are similar intermediate sounds for αι / ε / ë:
There are also interesting phonetic variations in contemporary Greek dialects to classify.

3. Everybody speaks and studies the κοινή of the Septante, most certainly Christianity does (kyrie eléison..); but important writers Pausanias, Nonnos (!!), Plutarch, Arrianos, Athinaios, etc, etc, were not writing in the κοινή..... Why ?

And finally how many Greek words and roots are not obviously indo-european, and in what semantic fields we find the majority of non-IE "etymologists" ....

All the best to all of you for this stimulating thread

Zeus10
24-01-18, 01:57
Interesting

lets compare with a Food Mandrax
the famous plant Aristotle describe as Mandragora :?

Modern Greek μασαω (I chew) masao
μασαμπουκα masabuka means good food to eat a lot comparing Brygian Bekos = baked, Bread

Both Greek and Italian(Latin) words derive from Albanian meaning : to eat

The verb in Albanian for eat=ha or simply 'a'. The infinitive is 'te hash'(tosk) or 'me anger'(geg)
me ash buke= to eat bread =masabuka
buke(indefinite)=buka(definite)


Although it is modern Greek,
But there I can't find alternate for chew in Greek
so probably mangare means to chew and in Italian become to eat?



mangare is a composite of the Albanian meaning: me (h)anger=to eat, and is formed in this way:
the verb ha=eat is pronounced 'a' by a common Albanian
me anger=infinitive =to eat
meanger after the vowel treatment reduces the diphthong ea-->a
meanger-->mangar-e

Simply like this, there is no unknown origin. The origin is Albanian language.

Zeus10
24-01-18, 02:06
There have to be Latin words coming from non-IE sources, but manducare is not a good example. The relationship with the roots mentioned for "chewing" (mando) is clear via the character of Manducus, the glutton, represented with the mask of someone chewing. And I don't see it unlikely at all to relate mand- with *mad-, given that in other languages the meaning derived are also related to chewing, eating, drinking or food.

The explanation above is valid for 'manducare' too:

The verb 'nduk' in Albanian =chew.
The infinitive 'me nduk'=to chew
The composite me nduk=menduk---> manduc-are(Italian suffix)
Simply like this.

Zeus10
24-01-18, 02:36
I have explained in Revising the classification of Indo-European languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27103) that Latin and Greek are probably hybrid languages with two major components: one Indo-European, and the other from an unknown West Asian language (probably long extinct). There may also be older Neolithic loanwords.

It is evidently hard to identify words from an unknown extinct language, so the best way to proceed to to sieve the words that cannot be ascertain as Indo-European. This includes all the roots of unknown or uncertain origin.

I will start by listing Latin words with their Italian and French derivatives, and show the lack of resemble to the Proto-Indo-European root.

Latin (French, Italian) >< PIE root

- largus (large, largo), unrelated to the PIE *megha or *mehro

Greek words

- mythos : "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.



And again, these words are clearly deriving from Albanian lexicon
I will start with the "Greek" word 'mythos'
Like in the examples above, the infinitive of Albanian verbs is like this:
me + verb
me+the/o=to tell(a story, to tell a story to smo else)
the composite "metho" is transformed to "myth-os" in "Greek", but is simply a transformation of a composite Albanian semantics

Meanwhile the Latin 'larg-us' is a neologism(back in time) into this language and its meaning is borrowed from Albanian larg=far. This is because the large objects in nature extend themselves far away, ex. the sea, the mountain, the sky etc.

Keep in mind, both Greek(Eastern Roman) and Latin(Western Roman), are both cultivated languages, they usually borrow ready terminology to create one of their own, and usually do this from vernacular adjacent language, like Albanian as their main furnisher.

Maciamo
24-01-18, 08:55
And again, these words are clearly deriving from Albanian lexicon
I will start with the "Greek" word 'mythos'
Like in the examples above, the infinitive of Albanian verbs is like this:
me + verb
me+the/o=to tell(a story, to tell a story to smo else)
the composite "metho" is transformed to "myth-os" in "Greek", but is simply a transformation of a composite Albanian semantics

Meanwhile the Latin 'larg-us' is a neologism(back in time) into this language and its meaning is borrowed from Albanian larg=far. This is because the large objects in nature extend themselves far away, ex. the sea, the mountain, the sky etc.

Keep in mind, both Greek(Eastern Roman) and Latin(Western Roman), are both cultivated languages, they usually borrow ready terminology to create one of their own, and usually do this from vernacular adjacent language, like Albanian as their main furnisher.

Ok, but that doesn't prove that they are ultimately of IE origin since they don't correlate in other IE languages and Albanian is itself a heavily hybridised IE language.

Zeus10
24-01-18, 17:05
Ok, but that doesn't prove that they are ultimately of IE origin since they don't correlate in other IE languages and Albanian is itself a heavily hybridised IE language.

I have a different approach toward the IE and PIE language theory. I strongly believe this theory is not correct, and there is not a PIE roots set, where the lexicon of all so called IE languages emerge off.
I believe that every word in a language, is been created based on a elementary brick:

1. the primitive syllables c-v(consonant +vowel) or further more c-v-c, which carry a basic meaning
2. imitating the sound in nature, like in the onomatopoeic words

1. example. le-ave(Engl)--la-sciare(Italian)--le(Alb), the root l+e(consonant+vowel=bone +meat) carries a primitive meaning : to le-t it go(leave)[notice the word le-t]
2. example (a) grind(Eng)---egriser(french)---grij(Alb) "borrow" the cluster 'gr' from the sound of grinding grr....
(b) crush(Eng)---ecraser(Fre), scrivere(It)---shkruaj(Alb) and so on & so forth

Now, there is no PIE language, we all know that the Church Languages, like Latin originated all the so called neo-latin and semi-latin languages including English. A branch of the same Church, originated the Slavic language-s(Old Church Slavonic) and Eastern Roman Church originated the Greek language. Altogether they comprise over 95 % of Europe languages, and that's why they have similarities. Albanian is an exception, although the Albanian word roots, are exactly the same like the above languages, Albanian was/is an ethnic language for a very long time, and was not orignated inside a religious institution, like its sister-languages of the same family, and this make it a special language, because is closer to the original common language, compared to the other cultivated languages, like Greek, Latin/s or Slavic language.
The term 'hybridised" in your post, describing Albanian language nature, is based on wrong premises (the PIE/IE theory).

Yetos
25-01-18, 23:22
And again, these words are clearly deriving from Albanian lexicon
I will start with the "Greek" word 'mythos'
Like in the examples above, the infinitive of Albanian verbs is like this:
me + verb
me+the/o=to tell(a story, to tell a story to smo else)
the composite "metho" is transformed to "myth-os" in "Greek", but is simply a transformation of a composite Albanian semantics

Meanwhile the Latin 'larg-us' is a neologism(back in time) into this language and its meaning is borrowed from Albanian larg=far. This is because the large objects in nature extend themselves far away, ex. the sea, the mountain, the sky etc.

Keep in mind, both Greek(Eastern Roman) and Latin(Western Roman), are both cultivated languages, they usually borrow ready terminology to create one of their own, and usually do this from vernacular adjacent language, like Albanian as their main furnisher.
Have I seen this film before?

I do not know if Albanian me+the means something,
or about you propose after few posts after the one i quote

But I am certain that the Word Mythos Μυθος
is one of the most pure and clear examples and proves of IE languages,

why

for 2 reasons

1, it clear foolows one the major rule aspiration d (dh) to θ (th)
2. it has the simmilar complex with the IE world Keklos e->υ κυκλος Μυθος

MYTHOS the root of the IE word is *mēwdʰ which for many Linguists is not even IE but early-Proto-Greek before the d turn to θ and
as the word keklos-Kυklos is u not e

cause the same also gives words like Μουσα Μουσικη Μουσειο clear Greek words
Musa Music Museum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muses

you see all the bellow are connected with same root
Mythos
Musa
Music
Museum
etc
even
Μογγος
εγγαστριμυθος


If the root of Mythos was Albanian me+the
wouldn't be word Music in Albanian be Methe-ic and in All other languages the same?
IS IT?

Zeus10
26-01-18, 01:31
Have I seen this film before?

I do not know if Albanian me+the means something,
or about you propose after few posts after the one i quote

But I am certain that the Word Mythos Μυθος
is one of the most pure and clear examples and proves of IE languages,

why

for 2 reasons

1, it clear foolows one the major rule aspiration d (dh) to θ (th)
2. it has the simmilar complex with the IE world Keklos e->υ κυκλος Μυθος

MYTHOS the root of the IE word is *mēwdʰ which for many Linguists is not even IE but early-Proto-Greek before the d turn to θ and
as the word keklos-Kυklos is u not e

cause the same also gives words like Μουσα Μουσικη Μουσειο clear Greek words
Musa Music Museum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muses

you see all the bellow are connected with same root
Mythos
Musa
Music
Museum
etc
even
Μογγος
εγγαστριμυθος


If the root of Mythos was Albanian me+the
wouldn't be word Music in Albanian be Methe-ic and in All other languages the same?
IS IT?

I don't know what film had you seen before, and as usually I can't comprehend your posting, but can you explain what Μοῦσαι has to do with mythos and how are these words related?

LAB
26-01-18, 01:47
I have explained in Revising the classification of Indo-European languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27103) that Latin and Greek are probably hybrid languages with two major components: one Indo-European, and the other from an unknown West Asian language (probably long extinct). There may also be older Neolithic loanwords.

It is evidently hard to identify words from an unknown extinct language, so the best way to proceed to to sieve the words that cannot be ascertain as Indo-European. This includes all the roots of unknown or uncertain origin.

I will start by listing Latin words with their Italian and French derivatives, and show the lack of resemble to the Proto-Indo-European root.

Latin (French, Italian) >< PIE root

- manducare (manger, mangiare) >< *ed-

EDIT : here are more words

- amygdala/amandula (amande, mandorla), from Greek amygdalos but not found in other IE languages

- autumnus (automne, autunno), of unknown origin, possibly from Etruscan.

- bestia (bête, bestia)

- coda (queue, coda), unrelated to the PIE *puk(eha) or *wolos

- elementem (element, elemento)

- cylindrus (cylindre, cilindro) only related to Greek kylindros

- famulus : Latin word for servant from which "family" is derived. Unrelated to the PIE roots *genhes or *wik

- farcire (farcire, farcire)

- finis (fin, fine), unrelated to the PIE root *termn-

- honorem (honeur, onore), not found in other IE languages

- largus (large, largo), unrelated to the PIE *megha or *mehro

- male/malus (mal, male), not related to PIE *ghalh(x)ros nor *hedwol

- metallum (métal, metallo), from Greek metallon, but differs from PIE word *h(a)eyes

- miser (misère, misera), no similarity with other IE languages

- (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.). No IE cognate.

- nigrum (noir, nero), unrelated to the PIE *k(w)rsnos, *mel-n or *keir

- oceanus (ocean, oceano), from Greek oceanos, but no cognates in other IE

- ochra (ocre, ocra), from Greek ochra, but no cognates in other IE

- phrasis (phrase, frase), from Greek phrasis (speech, way of speaking), but doesn't cognate with any IE word

- populus (peuple, popolo), no cognate in other IE languages. Possibly from Etruscan.

- purpura (pourpre, purpureo), from Greek porphyra which is of Semitic origin

- radius (rayon, raggio/radio)

- sanguis (sang, sangue), unrelated to the PIE *bhlo-to

- silens (silence, silenzio), doesn't appear to be IE

- sphæra (sphère, sfera) from Greek sphaira (globe, ball), of unknown origin.

- totus/totalis (total, totale), no IE cognate

- verdis (vert, verde), unrelated to the PIE *ker-, *kr-wos or *modheros, or to the PIE base *ghre- ("grow", from which the Germanic green derives)

- volare (voler, volare), unrelated to the PIE *dih- or *pet-


Greek words

- auto- : prefix meaning "self", doesn't cognate in other IE languages

- mythos : "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

- elektron : Greek word for amber, no cognate in IE

- xanthos : Greek word for yellow, no cognate in IE

- The Greek for "thousand" (kilo or khilias) as well as the Latin one (mille) are unrelated to the PIE root *tuh(a)s-kmtyos found in all Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.


Few suggestions that might help

-bestia / Alb . bisha (beast)
-fin / Alb . fund(finish)

-oceanus / Gr . okeano(ocean), also kyano(blue) / Alb . oqean and qiell ( sky )

-ochra / Alb . Okër

-phrasis / Gr . phrasis ( speech,way of speaking ) / Alb . thërras ( call,summon )

-populus / Alb . POpull cognates with POlis ?

-radius / Alb . Rreth (circle), Rrethoj , also Radhë (row)

-totus/totalis / Alb . total

-verdis / Alb . verdhë (yellow)


Greek words

-auto : from 'αυς' and 'ατα' .Doric / Alb . ai (he,him) ata (they,them)

Zeus10
26-01-18, 01:55
I have explained in Revising the classification of Indo-European languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27103) that Latin and Greek are probably hybrid languages with two major components: one Indo-European, and the other from an unknown West Asian language (probably long extinct). There may also be older Neolithic loanwords.

It is evidently hard to identify words from an unknown extinct language, so the best way to proceed to to sieve the words that cannot be ascertain as Indo-European. This includes all the roots of unknown or uncertain origin.

I will start by listing Latin words with their Italian and French derivatives, and show the lack of resemble to the Proto-Indo-European root.

Latin (French, Italian) >< PIE root



- honorem (honeur, onore), not found in other IE languages.

Yes you can. In Albanian "o ner" (geg) or "eshte nder" (tosk) means : it is a honour
The very word ner(geg) or nder(tosk) derives from the verb: niej(geg) or ndiej(tosk)=to feel(in this case a positive emotion)
So the Latin 'onore' is in fact an adjacent expression, one of the many that Latin borrowed from Albanian, similar to νενικήκαμεν=ne niq kam-en(We have won= we have expelled [the enemy])

Yetos
26-01-18, 07:01
I don't know what film had you seen before, and as usually I can't comprehend your posting, but can you explain what Μοῦσαι has to do with mythos and how are these words related?

I already did.

either IE mewdh

eiteher clear proto Greek mudh and Greek muth.
like proto-Greek Διας Dias and Greek Θεος ( D->Θ, α clear IE aspiration rule)

cause maybe Latin and Greek were church language

but we find the same word even in English like me-ntion.
although in Germanic seem m turn to n
newd noend nenn etc

maybe for you Albanian was mother of Latin and Greek, (I doupt though)
but was it in Germanic also? or Slavic? etc etc ?
non church languages?

same phoneental we find with IE keklos
in Greek Kuklos e->u

as for the sound of υ in Greek
αγελας μυκαται u= short ou ou = long u
(the cow makes μυ sound)

as for the case the word to be a proto-form of Greek
ntice the speachless mute muto, Greek Μο-γγος Μου-γγος
so same with IE Keklos or proto-Greek Koklos in circle Κυκλος
the IE root mewdh or the proto-Greek Mowdh muwdh

LAB
26-01-18, 13:21
I already did.

either IE mewdh

eiteher clear proto Greek mudh and Greek muth.
like proto-Greek Διας Dias and Greek Θεος ( D->Θ, α clear IE aspiration rule)

cause maybe Latin and Greek were church language

but we find the same word even in English like me-ntion.
although in Germanic seem m turn to n
newd noend nenn etc

maybe for you Albanian was mother of Latin and Greek, (I doupt though)
but was it in Germanic also? or Slavic? etc etc ?
non church languages?

same phoneental we find with IE keklos
in Greek Kuklos e->u

as for the sound of υ in Greek
αγελας μυκαται u= short ou ou = long u
(the cow makes μυ sound)

as for the case the word to be a proto-form of Greek
ntice the speachless mute muto, Greek Μο-γγος Μου-γγος
so same with IE Keklos or proto-Greek Koklos in circle Κυκλος
the IE root mewdh or the proto-Greek Mowdh muwdh


Zέυς & Deus > Theos

Ζεύνυσος , Ζώνυσος & Δεύνυσος , Διόνυσος

Ζ,ζ = dz

Probably DIAS (dhia=goat) is a term to refer to the sacred symbol of Pagan ''religion'', which was always depicted as half-goat half-human like Pan , Baphomet etc, and was demonized from Orthodox church beginning of 11th century.

https://image.ibb.co/gOwDpG/Screenshot_10.png (https://ibb.co/m8Rrbw)
upload image on internet (https://imgbb.com/)

Yetos
26-01-18, 19:18
Zέυς & Deus > Theos

Ζεύνυσος , Ζώνυσος & Δεύνυσος , Διόνυσος

Ζ,ζ = dz

Probably DIAS (dhia=goat) is a term to refer to the sacred symbol of Pagan ''religion'', which was always depicted as half-goat half-human like Pan , Baphomet etc, and was demonized from Orthodox church beginning of 11th century.

https://image.ibb.co/gOwDpG/Screenshot_10.png (https://ibb.co/m8Rrbw)
upload image on internet (https://imgbb.com/)


I do not know what are you talking about,

Διας as Deus as Dio etc means Divine not goat,

in fact the Albanian dhia sounds very strange,
considering the αιγα get goat aiwa IE

as for Διας
Ζευς Dias Ζεus = Justice God
Ξενιος Ζεnιος Διας = Hospitality and social aproach God.
so simple

Zeus10
28-01-18, 17:33
I do not know what are you talking about,

Διας as Deus as Dio etc means Divine not goat,

in fact the Albanian dhia sounds very strange,
considering the αιγα get goat aiwa IE

as for Διας
Ζευς Dias Ζεus = Justice God
Ξενιος Ζεnιος Διας = Hospitality and social aproach God.
so simple

The etymology of Ζεύς, Δίας, is related to his atributes as God of "bright sky"= Day & Sun, lightning, and thunder.
Most likely in Pelasgian mythology, he was the Sun God or Day God.
The root of his name is either Di(Dias) or Ze(Zeus, Zenos, Zanos)
In Albanian, the first variant of his name describes his light/lighting attributes Di(as)= di-te(day), Di-ell(sun), Dri-te(light)

The second version of his name Ze(Zeus, Zenos, Zanos), is most likely related to the "thunder" attribute, which not coincidentally is 100 % the same to Albanian word for sound ze:

ze--sound(in Tosk dialect), zan---sound(geg dialect).

Yetos
28-01-18, 22:21
The etymology of Ζεύς, Δίας, is related to his atributes as God of "bright sky"= Day & Sun, lightning, and thunder.
Most likely in Pelasgian mythology, he was the Sun God or Day God.
The root of his name is either Di(Dias) or Ze(Zeus, Zenos, Zanos)
In Albanian, the first variant of his name describes his light/lighting attributes Di(as)= di-te(day), Di-ell(sun), Dri-te(light)

The second version of his name Ze(Zeus, Zenos, Zanos), is most likely related to the "thunder" attribute, which not coincidentally is 100 % the same to Albanian word for sound ze:

ze--sound(in Tosk dialect), zan---sound(geg dialect).

I really doupt,

blevins13
29-01-18, 00:34
I really doupt,

Yetos when i watched this you came in my mind... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VL9whwwTK6I



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Zeus10
29-01-18, 20:17
I really doupt,

You really doubt it? This is really a very strong argument.

Yetos
29-01-18, 22:28
You really doubt it? This is really a very strong argument.


maybe yes, maybe not,

Yetos
29-01-18, 22:29
Yetos when i watched this you came in my mind... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VL9whwwTK6I



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)


old, but always funny,
but this has nothing to do,

I see and read more funny things in thread,

Joustos
03-02-18, 18:09
[QUOTE=Maciamo;389367]More words (mostly vocabulary relating to the Mediterranean climate) :

- angelus (ange, angelo) : perhaps from Semitic or another non-IE Middle-Eastern language
- cicada (cigale, cicala) : not a native Latin word; perhaps a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
- cucumerem (concombre, -) : perhaps from a pre-Italic Mediterranean language
Hi, Maciamo,
I like your idea of sifting words which are not of IE. origin, but (see my: What is Indo-European?) I don't accept the phonological dictionary of IE. Roots. So, for you Lat. Angelus is not IE. Actually, Angelus is < Gr. Aggelos [pronounced: Angelos], which means "messenger". They share the root "angel-"...
Likewise, your Lat. Manducare was not IE., but consider:
Gr. Mastax = mouth
Gr. Mastarizo [mastar-iz-o] (= to eat as a toothless man does; to suck, as a baby does). This gave rise to a Magna-Graecian (my native dialect) word: mastiki`u [< *mastikeuo, reiterative] which is used to mean "to chew".
Furthermore,
Mastarizo may have undergone this corruption: > Mas-tar- >Man-tar > Fr. Man-jar... ; MG. Man-ciar; It.Man-giar(e).

Zeus10
04-02-18, 19:08
More words (mostly vocabulary relating to the Mediterranean climate) :


Likewise, your Lat. Manducare was not IE., but consider:
Gr. Mastax = mouth
Gr. Mastarizo [mastar-iz-o] (= to eat as a toothless man does; to suck, as a baby does). This gave rise to a Magna-Graecian (my native dialect) word: mastiki`u [< *mastikeuo, reiterative] which is used to mean "to chew".
Furthermore,
Mastarizo may have undergone this corruption: > Mas-tar- >Man-tar > Fr. Man-jar... ; MG. Man-ciar; It.Man-giar(e).

You need to refrain your fantasy about this "corruption" mastar-mantar-manjar-mangiare, not only because the proposed sound transformation s-n and t-g, is impossible and never occurs, but also it's already been explained that 'mangiare' is an empiric Latin compound word which clearly borrows its meaning from the Albanian expression : me (h)anger= to eat .
So does the English word hungry or hunger, which is slightly different in its semantics, but the essence is the same: the discomfort caused by the desire to eat
And this is bottom line.

Zeus10
04-02-18, 19:22
:
Gr. Mastax = mouth
Gr. Mastarizo [mastar-iz-o] (= to eat as a toothless man does; to suck, as a baby does). This gave rise to a Magna-Graecian (my native dialect) word: mastiki`u [< *mastikeuo, reiterative] which is used to mean "to chew".
Furthermore,
Mastarizo may have undergone this corruption: > Mas-tar- >Man-tar > Fr. Man-jar... ; MG. Man-ciar; It.Man-giar(e).

And by the way, forget about the precipitant suffix in the word 'mast-ication'. This is the same as the French masch-er, which is again the Albanian me [h]ash(geg)=të hash(tosk)=to eat (eng) where aspirated h, is lost among 2 vowels, followed by a vowel treatment ea--->a