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spongetaro
07-12-11, 16:43
I found intersting similiraities between Basque and Tuareg (a Berber language) Vocabulary on a French Website:
http://asignoret.free.fr/bsktwa.html



English....Tuareg.....Basque

needlee ..istn- sten- ..EZTEN

tree ...saGar (pl.).. SAGAR (*)

to arrive ...fel.... HEL

to attach...aGi ....ATXI

beef ....esu (t-esu-t "cow") ...ZEZEN

wood.... saRir ....ZUR

to run fast .... azl ZAL

to say ...... enn ERRAN, ESAN

to sleep..... eTTes ETZAN (to lie)

sheet ......axawlil OIHAL

child .....araw (H)AUR

enemy .....henGa ETSAI

to sneeze .....usraG urtzinz

to do .....eG / ekn- EGIN

Woman ....t-ame-t (t ...t = feminine) EME

Fenec ....axôrhi AZERI (fox)

String.....ehed HEDE
gazelle ....ahenkoD AHUNTZ (goat)

drop.... eTTeb ITOITZ

seeds ....âllun ALE


to throw .....enDw ANDEatu

milk ....ax ESNE

Jaw ....amâdel MATEL-(HEZUR)

master..... mess messaw MAISU


sick ..... iran -urn- ERI


name ......isem IZEN

smell ..... ûxem USAIN USNA

shadow ..... têle ITZAL

nail...... êsker AZAZKAL

Gold ......ûreR URRE

to milk ......eZZeG JEIXI JAITZI

to chose .....ebres BEREXI

to find..... eGraw AURKItu

valley.... eRahar HARAN

calf .....ahRu ARATXE

Taranis
07-12-11, 17:38
I'm not sure all of the words in the list really are cognates, but I am absolutely confident some of them are. One particular word in the list is Basque word for gold, 'urre', which is pretty impossible to have derived from the Indo-European word for 'gold' (Latin "aurum", Gaulish "auron").

What is a bit of a problem, is that the list you posted includes modern words. It would be intersting to see what the table looks like when comparing Proto-Basque and Proto-Berber forms of the words in question.

As for the historic context, I mentioned before, the Beaker-Bell Culture for instance extended into North Africa. It would be very surprising if we find no common words at all.

Carlos
07-12-11, 20:22
There are too many similarities to the case of pure causality.

Taranis
09-12-11, 09:12
I have checked the Basque side of these words (not the Berber side, however), and the bolded words in the list can be eliminated. Also, note that I gave the Proto-Basque form where I could find it:

needlee ..istn- sten- ..EZTEN
The Basque word for needle is "orratz"


tree ...saGar (pl.).. SAGAR (*)
Basque "sagar" actually means "apple"


to arrive ...fel.... HEL
Basque "(h)el-"


to attach...aGi ....ATXI
Basque "atxiki" (to add, to stick)


beef ....esu (t-esu-t "cow") ...ZEZEN
Basque "zezen" means 'bull'


wood.... saRir ....ZUR
Basque "zur"


to run fast .... azl ZAL
(no such word in Basque, but compare Basque "zaldi", 'horse')


to say ...... enn ERRAN, ESAN
Basque "esan", "erran" probably from earlier "esran"


to sleep..... eTTes ETZAN (to lie)
Basque "etzan"


sheet ......axawlil OIHAL
Basque "oihal" (cloth)


child .....araw (H)AUR
Basque "(h)aur"


enemy .....henGa ETSAI
Basque "etsai"


to sneeze .....usraG urtzinz
Basque "usin"


to do .....eG / ekn- EGIN
Basque "-gin-" (to do, make)


Woman ....t-ame-t (t ...t = feminine) EME
Basque "eme" is a loanword from Romance (compare Latin "femina")


Fenec ....axôrhi AZERI (fox)
Basque "azeri" is a loanword from the Latin "acer"(cunning, sharp)


String.....ehed HEDE
Basque "hede"


gazelle ....ahenkoD AHUNTZ (goat)
Basque "ahuntz"


drop.... eTTeb ITOITZ
Basque "itoi"


seeds ....âllun ALE
Basque "ale"


to throw .....enDw ANDEatu
the Basque word for 'to throw' is "-gotz-"


milk ....ax ESNE
Basque "esne"


Jaw ....amâdel MATEL-(HEZUR)
Basque "matel" (or "mazela") is a Latin loanword ("maxilla")


master..... mess messaw MAISU
Basque "maisu" means "teacher"


sick ..... iran -urn- ERI
Basque "eri"


name ......isem IZEN
Basuqe "izen"


smell ..... ûxem USAIN USNA
Basque "usain", from an earlier *usani


shadow ..... têle ITZAL
Basque "itzal"


nail...... êsker AZAZKAL
Basque "atzazal" means "finger nail", and it's a compound of "atz-" (finger) + "azal" (skin, bark).


Gold ......ûreR URRE
Basque "urre"


to milk ......eZZeG JEIXI JAITZI
Basque "jaitzi"


to chose .....ebres BEREXI
not a Basque word ("berezi" means 'special')


to find..... eGraw AURKItu
Basque "aurkitu"


valley.... eRahar HARAN
Basque "(h)aran"


calf .....ahRu ARATXE
The Basque word for 'calf' is actually "txahal", which requires an earlier *zanal or *sanal.

Carlos
10-12-11, 03:08
There are archaeological finds of both Iberian Celts as, but not the Basques.

The language Euskera were once wrote this? ამ ენაზე დაიწერა ისე

Kardu
10-12-11, 12:38
Carlos, I don't get what you wanna say using Georgian alphabet in reference to Basque :)

Taranis
10-12-11, 12:45
There are archaeological finds of both Iberian Celts as, but not the Basques.

Sorry, but what you say makes absolutely no sense. :petrified:

There are archaeological findings in the Basque country going back as far as the Mesolithic. Wether and how much these have to do with the Basques is another story, but it's clear that the Basques lived near their present position in Antiquity.


The language Euskera were once wrote this? ამ ენაზე დაიწერა ისე

You seem to be mixing up two hypotheses here:

1) It was thought in the past, based on the Greek names for these peoples, between the Iberians of Hispania, and the Iberians of the Caucasus. Note however that this is an exonym. To claim that there's a connection is a bit like saying New Guinea was colonized by people from Guinea.

2) It has been suggested a suggestion between Basque and Georgian (Kartvelian) languages, but this has been disproven. Some people maintain a connection between Basque and one of the other Caucasian families (Northwest or Northeast, respectively).

Regarding the Georgian script, it has been used from the 5th century AD onwards, and it was never used outside the Caucasus. The first written Basque/Aquitanian words and terms may come from as early as the 1st century BC (when the Romans took control over the area), and the only writing system ever used for writing Basque was Latin.

Kardu
10-12-11, 12:56
Regarding the Georgian script, it has been used from the 5th century AD onwards, and it was never used outside the Caucasus. Off-topic but I'd like to clarify that the recent archaeological excavation in Eastern Georgia discovered amphorae and other pottery with Georgian inscriptions dated 1st century AD. The alphabet itself is thought to be created in 4th c. BC.

Taranis
10-12-11, 13:07
Off-topic but I'd like to clarify that the recent archaeological excavation in Eastern Georgia discovered amphorae and other pottery with Georgian inscriptions dated 1st century AD. The alphabet itself is thought to be created in 4th c. BC.

Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't quite sure myself, but it makes sense if the script itself is older.

Kardu
10-12-11, 13:22
Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't quite sure myself, but it makes sense if the script itself is older. It seems the old Georgian alphabet had a very narrow use for the sacral pagan texts, inscriptions and calendar. So after conversion of Georgia to Christianity in early 4th century AD, over-zealot new Christians destroyed as much as they could of the remnants of pagan past. (e.g. Those amphorae with inscriptions were found while digging remains of a Zoroastrian temple).

As for more to the thread topic, despite I don't believe in a large scale similarity or relation between Basque and Caucasian languages, there are many curious coincidences in words and language structure. This might be accidental but one might speculate that some G2a brought their Caucasian/Anatolian language with them to Iberia which left a trace in modern Basque.

Taranis
10-12-11, 13:31
It seems the old Georgian alphabet had a very narrow use for the sacral pagan texts, inscriptions and calendar. So after conversion of Georgia to Christianity in early 4th century AD, over-zealot new Christians destroyed as much as they could of the remnants of pagan past. (e.g. Those amphorae with inscriptions were found while digging remains of a Zoroastrian temple).

That explains the situation even better, especially how the script seems to "come out of nowhere" if earlier texts were at large scale destroyed. Also, I didn't know that the Georgians were Zoroastrians before converting to Christianity. You learn something new every day. :)


As for more to the thread topic, despite I don't believe in a large scale similarity or relation between Basque and Caucasian languages, there are many curious coincidences in words and language structure. This might be accidental but one might speculate that some G2a brought their Caucasian/Anatolian language with them to Iberia which left a trace in modern Basque.

Yes absolutely, those similarities definitely exist. Both are agglutinative-ergative languages. The problem is proving a relationship. It's virtually impossible if you go from the modern languages.

Carlos
10-12-11, 13:48
Taranis
Lo sentimos, pero lo que usted dice no tiene ningún sentido. Hay hallazgos arqueológicos en el País Vasco que se remonta hasta el Mesolítico. El tiempo y la cantidad de estos tienen que ver con los vascos es otra historia, pero está claro que los vascos vivían cerca de su posición actual en la Antigüedad

Archeological remains of other groups, but there remains Basques themselves, and that's strange. What if it were a Berber language derived from the Punic wars? is not the first time you speak a language native or derivative imports.

Kardu
10-12-11, 13:48
Yes, there were many local/Sumerian inspired cults in Georgia before Christianity and after intensive contact with Indo-Aryan peoples Zoroastrism and Mithraism also got a strong foothold there. Mithra was particularly popular among warlike Georgians and, amazingly, till today on the 25th of December, Mithra's birthday, people sacrifice pigs and boars (Mithra's sacral animal) in some parts of Eastern Georgia (again very close to the area where that ancient temple was found :)), although they do it out of tradition without any knowledge of the real roots :)

7000 years have passed and Iberian peninsula and the Caucasus had their own ways of development and change, getting influenced by numerous other folks. Indeed, discovering the degree of relationship between those languages would be practically impossible..

Knovas
10-12-11, 13:57
It's possible Basque and Berber could share the same seed, but to find a clear match is not an easy task. Quite of this words for example don't look enough similar to me, so I personally think that if there is a link it must be incredibly ancient.

And surely there are similarities with other languages, but again, it must be due to similar reasons.

Taranis
10-12-11, 14:00
Archeological remains of other groups, but there remains Basques themselves, and that's strange. What if it were a Berber language derived from the Punic wars? is not the first time you speak a language native or derivative imports.

What? No, that is impossible! :startled: Even if Basque shares some words with the Berber languages (which seems to be the case), it is completely unrelated with the Berber languages. The Berber languages are part of the Afroasiatic language family, which also incldes the Egyptian language (both ancient, and it's modern descendant, Coptic) and the Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc.).

Basque is absolutely unrelated with the Afroasiatic languages, it must have a different origin.

It is also pretty clear that the Basques must have been living at / near their present location for considerable time because the Basque language includes vocabulary not found elsewhere for terms like agriculture, domesticated animals and metal-working.

Knovas
10-12-11, 14:42
Very good points Taranis, I have a better understanding now. ¿What's the most likely origin for you? ¿Native to Europe since the Neolithic or even the Mesolithic?

Carlos
10-12-11, 15:22
Taranis
It is also pretty clear that the Basques must have been living at / near their present location for considerable time because the Basque language includes vocabulary not found elsewhere for terms like agriculture, domesticated animals and metal-working.

^^
Are you talking about the Basques or Celts?


Celtic names and place names are presented as Basques: Beyond the institutions
Celtic ancestral Castilian, Basque also have as many Celtic words,
as the numeral "hogei" The name "Deba", "command" or "strategy" (site location), Maite (beloved), Gori
(Incandescent), erbium (Hare), Mendi (Monte), Orein (Deer), Orkatz (Corzo), etc. .. They are also very many
the names of the Celtic inhabitants of the areas that vasconizadas posing as Basque nationalists, among
they Zuazo (Suessatium), Lezama-Leguizamon (Segisamum also turmódigos city and in turn the
Segisama derivative formed with the Celtic theme sego means of achieving an objective measure of success or
and the final defeat Celtic love) and many other names and place names of the Celtic ancestors of the Castilians.

The identity of the Basque and Berber is still evident
in the sixteenth century manuscripts of the Gauls colonial archives in Aix-en-Provence
written in Amazigh.

The Romans described the vasconum as "men of various races," and hence
the Celts to the nickname they referred only to its location on the top and not a
characteristic or ethnic type uniform as described.

Kardu
10-12-11, 15:28
Carlos, am I getting paranoid, or you have some hidden reasons to insist on Berber-Basque linguistic affinity? If so, please, say it out loud...

Carlos
10-12-11, 15:35
Carlos, am I getting paranoid, or you have some hidden reasons to insist on Berber-Basque linguistic affinity? If so, please, say it out loud...

Did not you read the first post?, There is a high affinity, I believe that Basque is not as old, must be a Berber dialect words and then add more later Celtic and Latin vasconized, the rest is mythology promoted by the nationalism invented by Sabino Arana. I do not think there is more, a Berber dialect survives and is adopted by Celtic tribes in the area that can survive the isolation and lack of interest arising out of their lands between the great cultures that were arriving in the Iberian Peninsula during the centuries.

Knovas
10-12-11, 15:42
I usually become surprised with most of the posts he write. And now, interpreting at his convenience an ambiguous Roman description which could mean just a difference in hair or eye color, since it doesn't specify nothing.

Trying to dark Basques with some non European element seems to be the reason. Too bad when genetic studies an admixture experiments show they are between the most purest Europeans...lol

PD: Oh yes, and the obsession with Nationalism. Come on...

Kardu
10-12-11, 15:52
yes, I suspected something along political and personal background lines :)

Sorry, Carlos, few(even many) word similarity between 2 languages doesn't prove anything except some contact which may have been mediated.

Carlos
10-12-11, 15:53
I usually become surprised with most of the posts he write. And now, interpreting at his convenience an ambiguous Roman description which could mean just a difference in hair or eye color, since it doesn't specify nothing.

Trying to dark Basques with some non European element seems to be the reason. Too bad when genetic studies an admixture experiments show they are between the most purest Europeans...lol

PD: Oh yes, and the obsession with Nationalism. Come on...

Obviously we are talking about the Basque language in ancient times and if there is no archaeological trace of Basques themselves, the annals qualify them as a heterogeneous group isolated in the mountains and down the looting practiced from time to time to destroy everything they found, later appropriated a territory that is not theirs, it would be logical that more or less subject tribes speaking that dialect supposedly had just Berber, in that case would the genetic markers in different ways than the origin of the Basque language.

Carlos
10-12-11, 16:04
yes, I suspected something along political and personal background lines :)

Sorry, Carlos, few(even many) word similarity between 2 languages doesn't prove anything except some contact which may have been mediated.

In all this there is a lot of politics, in an Iberian Peninsula where they have not stopped going cultures, with a rapid movement, exchanges and others, and archaeological remains exist Basques themselves and knowing it was a heterogeneous group of looting, isolated in the mountain and several skirmishes that manages a territory and this may make to impose their dialect of bandits among more established Celtic people tell me that a lot of mythology want to keep the romantic myth inoculated into Europe by the racist Sabino Arana. Who is going to believe it can be a language that lasts from cormañones? has survived without a scratch group with bases such as the Celts, without a defined territory, sorry but I do not, should be somewhat easier than that.

And Europe is unbearable, I see the 19th century everywhere.

Kardu
10-12-11, 16:27
I guess you are using some translation program. They are not perfect so your posts are often hard to understand. I suggest you put down original Spanish posts along, some people here including me speak it and it would make the communication easier.

Calling whole people 'badit' or bandit descent is not nice apart from being historically inaccurate...

Carlos
10-12-11, 16:36
I guess you are using some translation program. They are not perfect so your posts are often hard to understand. I suggest you put down original Spanish posts along, some people here including me speak it and it would make the communication easier.

Calling whole people 'badit' or bandit descent is not nice apart from being historically inaccurate...

When it does not matter, blame the translator, ¿previously had no problem with the translation, now? mmm

Well change the term: group down to slaughter, destroy, steal, etc. not so concerned, we were once the most savage peoples, what people have not massacred, destroyed and others? now look at the things that happen yet, if we changed that much, but now are design massacres.

Good afternoon, now I have to go to work. In Spain we are so, we spend our lives working, I hope that Europe will force us to adopt the European time.

Endri
10-12-11, 17:36
I don't want to interfere with this debate since i know nothing about the 2 languages in question but:

1) For 2 languages to be considered similar, more than e few mere common words need to exist.

2) Carlos posts to me seem a bit biased and as he claims 'nationalistic' . Idc why political problems should reflect in a language discussion. Basque region claiming independence and Spaniards discussing about it, right or wrong, should be done in another thread.

Taranis
10-12-11, 18:35
^^
Are you talking about the Basques or Celts?

The Basques, obviously.

Domesticated animals:
- calf "txahal" (from earlier *zanal)
- cow "behi"
- goat "ahuntz" (from earlier *anutz)
- horse "zaldi"
- ox "idi"
- sheep "ardi"
- pig "txerri" (from earlier *zerri)

Metals and metal-working:
- blacksmith "harotz"
- forge "ola"
- iron "burdina"
- lead "beruna"
- sledgehammer "gabi"


Celtic names and place names are presented as Basques: Beyond the institutions
Celtic ancestral Castilian, Basque also have as many Celtic words,
as the numeral "hogei" The name "Deba", "command" or "strategy" (site location), Maite (beloved), Gori
(Incandescent), erbium (Hare), Mendi (Monte), Orein (Deer), Orkatz (Corzo), etc. ..

With exception of "maite", which indeed may derive from Celtic *maitu, none of these words has any similarity with Celtic words:

- The Proto-Celtic word for "twenty" would have been *wikanti, which is completely different from Basque 'hogei'.

- Basque "gorri" means "red". The main Celtic word for red is *roudo-, which has cognates in other branches of Indo-European. Besides that, there's also the roots *dergo- and *kokko-, none which bear any similarity with Basque.

- Basque "mendi" (mountain) probably derives from an earlier "bendi" (it's impossible to derive this from Latin "montem"), for which there is no Celtic cognate.

- Basque "orein" (deer) has no Celtic cognate, either (*kerwo-, compare with Latin 'cervinus').


They are also very many
the names of the Celtic inhabitants of the areas that vasconizadas posing as Basque nationalists, among
they Zuazo (Suessatium), Lezama-Leguizamon (Segisamum also turmódigos city and in turn the
Segisama derivative formed with the Celtic theme sego means of achieving an objective measure of success or
and the final defeat Celtic love) and many other names and place names of the Celtic ancestors of the Castilians.

None of these towns was located in Basque territory in Antiquity. Only the eastern part of the modern-day Basque country was Basque. The Basques in Antiquity lived more eastwards in the Central Pyrenees (up to the Val-de-Aran at the northwestern tip of Catalonia) and northwards (up to the Garonne river). How else do you explain town names recorded by the Romans like "Iliberris" ("ili + berri" = "new town") and "Iturissa" ("iturri" = spring)?


The identity of the Basque and Berber is still evident
in the sixteenth century manuscripts of the Gauls colonial archives in Aix-en-Provence
written in Amazigh.

That is complete nonsense. As I said, Basque and the Berber languages have completely different grammatical structures. Basque is an agglutinative-ergative language, and has a subject-object-verb (SOV) order. The Berber languages in contrast are fusional and highly inflected, and have a verb-subject-object (VSO) order.


The Romans described the vasconum as "men of various races," and hence
the Celts to the nickname they referred only to its location on the top and not a
characteristic or ethnic type uniform as described.

If you read ancient authors like Strabo, Pliny or Ptolemy, it is very clear that the Celts (even the Iberian Celts alone) did not constitute a uniform group, and there were considerable differences. Ancient authors distinguished the Astures, Cantabri, Gallaecians, Celtici, Carpetani, Oretani and Vaccaei from the Celtiberians 'proper' of the central Ebro area. Some of the beforementioned groups, though Indo-European, may not have been even Celtic (like the Lusitanians).

Otherwise, I would like to reiterate what others said: this is no place for nationalist polemics.

Taranis
10-12-11, 20:57
Very good points Taranis, I have a better understanding now. ¿What's the most likely origin for you? ¿Native to Europe since the Neolithic or even the Mesolithic?

I would like to get back to this question, because I think it is a very good one. If you look into the table of my previous post, Basque has a large 'native' vocabulary of terms for domesticated animals. If we were to presume that Basque was indeed a Mesolithic language, we would have to assume that all of these words are borrowed from elsewhere. How likely is this?

Carlos
10-12-11, 22:27
Hey, how about I'm back from work.

As I was saying, in Spain, many have these assumptions about the Basque language. Keep in mind this is a highly politicized issue, Europe is also on these issues in the foundations established in the 19th century, we must not forget that Sabino Arana traveled to Germany to ask the Basque country was a protectorate of the Nazis, he failed and went from the Olympic, but somehow he had to work so that their ideas were in Europe at the time and their reactionary ideas and ideals, then we have two points so that the Basque myth caught on:

1. Basque regional nationalism comes though the idea of ​​an ancient Basque language and completely autochthonous to keep their political views.

2. For the Europe of that time served the Basque question recurrrente argument to justify an antique or a possible European development and purity would harbor or give evidence that anything in their countries and would have been much better than the Basque, which was in Spain, but hey, close to France, northern Spain was, well, come on, is accepted as a pet.


Of the few objects that can be considered essentially Basque furniture (chests or kutxa and useful pastor), ornaments and figures indicate Maghrebi culture using the same geometric symbols, mainly Eguzkilore and wake. The lauburu, become the symbol of the Basque nation advocated by Arana does not have the millennia-old wants to attribute to him, is a modern symbol (SXVI)

The total absence of traces of Basque culture or religion in this area or in any other, is clear indication that it is not an indigenous people, let alone before the Celts, who, unlike the Basques, have left an important legacy.

They are also very many names of the Celtic inhabitants of the areas that vasconized posing as Basque nationalists, including:
Zuazo (Suessatium), Lezama-Leguizamon (Segisamum also turmódigos city of the derivative and in turn formed the subject Segisama Celtic sego means of achieving an objective measure of success or defeat and the end Celtic ama) and many other names and place names of the Celtic ancestors the Castilians.
Not exactly the story chronicles a story that is pleasing to hear Basque nationalists, but we all know as "Veritas Vos Liberavit"-but the truth sets us free-

Taranis
10-12-11, 23:03
The question I have, did you even bother to read my reply, Carlos?

LeBrok
10-12-11, 23:15
Nicely said Taranis. I'm just wondering about this:

- iron "burdina"

Do we have enough info about Basque sound laws to be sure that this is not cognate of EI?

burdina->brudina->rudina->rudi, ruda, rudo.

Kardu
10-12-11, 23:27
"The lauburu, become the symbol of the Basque nation advocated by Arana does not have the millennia-old wants to attribute to him, is a modern symbol"
This claim is false, lauburu like other solar symbols is extremely old, even in Georgia millenia-old artifacts and building remains are covered with those...
5403

Taranis
10-12-11, 23:28
Nicely said Taranis. I'm just wondering about this:

- iron "burdina"

Do we have enough info about Basque sound laws to be sure that this is not cognate of EI?

burdina->brudina->rudina->rudi, ruda, rudo.

You're probably drawing parallels to the Finnish word "iron" here ("rauta"), which is derived from the Balto-Slavic word for "ore", which in turn is derived from the PIE word for "red". From what I have seen, such a sound change is definitely not recorded. But then again, the word has to be older anyways (bear in mind that the reconstructed "Proto-Basque" only reflects the situation ca. 2000 years ago). One very real possibility is that the word originally had a different meaning (like "ore", or "metal"), and that it was shifted to "iron". What is pretty obvious is that the Basque word has nothing to do with the Celtic (*isarno-) or the Latin ("ferrum") word for iron.

Carlos
10-12-11, 23:31
The question I have, did you even bother to read my reply, Carlos?

Sorry, I just got to work and I had not noticed, I have not eaten, I'm gonna eat and then study it, even if not realized (black humor), I am not an expert on the subject, but my subconscious is able to get through everything and something tells me that here in this topic there is a lot of lies around the corner do what I can.

PS: Please Lebrok you and Taranis are too cults for me, you will applaud continually, are moderators and is a bit ugly, at least to me it gives me bad moderate printing.

Thanks for your understanding and kindness as well as patience.

Taranis
11-12-11, 19:45
As I said, Basque has a large stock of vocabulary of words concerning agriculture, domesticated animals and metal-working, which is clearly not found in other languages.


The vocabulary of Continental Celtic (Celtiberian, Gáulico) is little known.

This is not true. Our knowledge about Gaulish vocabulary (not so Gaulish grammar) is fairly complete, actually. In addition:

"maite" may indeed probably a Celtic loanword.

Welsh "mynydd" and Breton "menez" require an earlier Proto-Celtic *monjo-, whereas the ancestral form of "mendi" would have been *bendi.

"andera" is not found in any branch of the Indo-European languages and may be a Basque loanword into Celtic.

Basque "hartz" may indeed be a Celtic loanword (Gaulish "artos"). The root word is in turn found in other branches of Indo-European (Italic, Greek, Hittite, Sanskrit).

Carlos
12-12-11, 01:08
"The lauburu, become the symbol of the Basque nation advocated by Arana does not have the millennia-old wants to attribute to him, is a modern symbol"
This claim is false, lauburu like other solar symbols is extremely old, even in Georgia millenia-old artifacts and building remains are covered with those...
5403

But among the Basques, that's where prefabrication and manipulation of Sabino Arana. I think you have not heard yet that there is no archaeological vestige of the Basques, is not suspicious?, In many cases thousands of years would give a kick to a stone and would that symbol, but it is not. The discussion is not the antiquity of the symbol if no misappropriation of a nationalist symbol on a relatively modern award that does not fool anyone, maybe some European romantic stuck in the 19 century?, It is possible!

Georgia should be a wonderful place, as you know have also tried to connect Basque with you, is not it ridiculous?

So many experts, who know nothing of the Celtiberian and still dream of that Basque came from the Cro-Magnons, historical facts, historical chronicles, or good for nothing known in addition to the absence of archaeological remains, leading to a path that is another an African origin for the Basque and a pike in Flanders do not want to lose some skilful political grounds, because it's something that locks the Berber dialect study sponge hundreds of words in their environment, which further complicates their study .

Taranis
12-12-11, 01:12
But among the Basques, that's where prefabrication and manipulation of Sabino Arana. I think you have not heard yet that there is no archaeological vestige of the Basques, is not suspicious?, In many cases thousands of years would give a kick to a stone and would that symbol, but it is not. The discussion is not the antiquity of the symbol if no misappropriation of a nationalist symbol on a relatively modern award that does not fool anyone, maybe some European romantic stuck in the 19 century?, It is possible!

Georgia should be a wonderful place, as you know have also tried to connect Basque with you, is not it ridiculous?

So many experts, who know nothing of the Celtiberian and still dream of that Basque came from the Cro-Magnons, historical facts, historical chronicles, or good for nothing known in addition to the absence of archaeological remains, leading to a path that is another an African origin for the Basque and a pike in Flanders do not want to lose some skilful political grounds, because it's something that locks the Berber dialect study sponge hundreds of words in their environment, which further complicates their study .

Carlos, I'm giving you hereby an informal warning to stop with your bigotry against the Basques.

Franco
12-12-11, 01:28
It is often assumed that the isolation of the basque language implies the zone was populated by Basque speakers from very ancient times, but I don't think so. The basques may be relatively newcomers to Northern Spain by the times of the Romans. This is specially true for the Basque Country (northern Spain), which was inhabited by Celtic tribes before the Basques migrated to there and dispalced the native population.

LeBrok
12-12-11, 02:21
Frank, at this time period it's hard to talk about Celts to be native. They were relatively newcomers to the area.
At the moment we don't know exactly when Basque or Celts showed up, plus or minus thousand years.

Taranis
12-12-11, 02:45
Frank, at this time period it's hard to talk about Celts to be native. They were relatively newcomers to the area.
At the moment we don't know exactly when Basque or Celts showed up, plus or minus thousand years.

If we look at the situation in Antiquity, the Basques were borders from two sides by Celtic-speaking peoples: the Gauls from the north and northeast, and the Celtiberians and their relatives from the west and southwest (as well as the non-IE Iberians from the east). My opinion is that the Basques cannot have had contact with the Celts for very long, and if they had, it cannot have been very intense. The Basques stand quite in contrast here for example to the Germanic peoples who extensively borrowed words from Celtic.

My personal hunch is that the Basques were indeed autochtonous since at least the Neolithic, and that the Basque terms for metal-working date from the Beaker-Bell period.

Here is a (complete?) list of Celtic loanwords loanwords into Basque:

'aran' (plum) - present in Welsh 'eirinen' (plum) and Old Irish 'áirne' (sloe).

'arraun' (oar) - present in Old Irish 'rama', Latin 'remus'. The Proto-Celtic form is reconstructed as *ramo-.

'hartz' (bear) - present in Gaulish 'artos', Old Irish 'art', Welsh 'arth', Breton 'arzh'.

'daraturu' (drill) - from Gaulish 'taratro-'.

*ganbo- (hot spring). Only in place names. From Gaulish 'kambo-' (slope, bend, curve), compare with 'Cambodunum' (modern Kempten, Bavaria).

'maite' (beloved) - compare with Old Irish 'maith' ('good'), from earlier Proto-Celtic *mati-.

In addition, there is the following set of words which are found both in Basque and Celtic, not found elsewhere:

'adar' (horn) is only found in Irish (Old Irish 'adarc', modern Irish 'adharc'), and has no cognate anywhere else except Basque. This may be a common borrowing from a third source.

'andere' (lady), found in Old Irish 'ainder'. This word may be a Basque/Aquitanian borrowing into Celtic, due to the presence of the Aquitanian word "andos" (which can be translates as 'lord').

'harr' (rock), from an earlier *karr- as in Old Irish 'carrac' (boulder, rock).

Carlos
12-12-11, 15:28
Carlos, I'm giving you hereby an informal warning to stop with your bigotry against the Basques.

What an outrage!, I am researching to reach a conclusion, I glass on historical information and data that exist today, I can compare them and come to a conclusion. Make no mistake, I'm talking at all times of old, probably the majority of Basques already have very little actual genetics of those "men of various races," citing the classics and those who have inherited that for me is a dialect of Berber.

On the modern Basques have not yet begun to talk, if you want to do.

Greetings, we will continue talking to the night now I have three hours to eat before a job and I have no desire indigestible.

Thanks for seeing me and very friendly.

Knovas
12-12-11, 17:05
And here we go again with the "men of various races", which as I pointed above could mean many different things due to its ambiguousness. No need to say that, genetically speaking, there's little or nothing supporting such claim in the Basques. Obviously Carlos has serious problems with all type of non Spanish Nationalism in the Peninsula (as attested by other posts), so if I were you Taranis I'd prefer to focus the discussion in the non biased opinions.

By the way, what it's clear to me at least, is that in genetic terms it's difficult to find the connection with the language. Possibly we'll never know the exact origins.

Wilhelm
12-12-11, 17:30
So many experts, who know nothing of the Celtiberian and still dream of that Basque came from the Cro-Magnons, historical facts, historical chronicles, or good for nothing known in addition to the absence of archaeological remains, leading to a path that is another an African origin for the Basque and a pike in Flanders do not want to lose some skilful political grounds, because it's something that locks the Berber dialect study sponge hundreds of words in their environment, which further complicates their study .Plese, stay with facts. The highest concentration of paleolithic mtDNA U5 has been found in modern Northern Navarrese (basque speakers) at 15-17%, also mtDNA H1,H2, and V is high in all the cantabrian-pyrenees fringe.

Knovas
12-12-11, 17:56
I personally tend to think that Basques are less Paleolithic than the average Iberians due to R1b influence, but I'll keep cautious waiting for more data. Anyways, they are largely European in autosomal results, doesn't matter what the influence is.

Carlos
12-12-11, 22:32
And here we go again with the "men of various races", which as I pointed above could mean many different things due to its ambiguousness. No need to say that, genetically speaking, there's little or nothing supporting such claim in the Basques. Obviously Carlos has serious problems with all type of non Spanish Nationalism in the Peninsula (as attested by other posts), so if I were you Taranis I'd prefer to focus the discussion in the non biased opinions.

By the way, what it's clear to me at least, is that in genetic terms it's difficult to find the connection with the language. Possibly we'll never know the exact origins.

In research I am conducting on the Basque language is necessary to collect all the information on the topic, Sabino Arana version or the Basque nationalists, Nordic 19th century who, oddly enough their ideas and thoughts are still based.

I do not consider to be taboo any way forward in the investigation, obviously now after so many centuries of research no specialist has succeeded in giving a good result on the issue of Basque origin, perhaps because they take risks and as seeing here is an attempt to create taboos that hinder research.

I hope I have left my position clear and not twist again about my interests. The important thing is to find the truth at any cost.

And in view of the results on the Basque language, now I have more credibility to the historical chronicles and interested party's opinion of 19 century northern and of course much more than those of Sabino Arana and Basque nationalists today.

And I think the Romans had experience with tribes and races, are not you going to make people believe that the Romans mistook a tribe where 20 have black hair and brown 10 3 blonde with the epithet of "people of various races," Sorry, but I will not confess millstones.

You know there are things that foreigners are escapes, subtleties and Spain do not realize nobody believes the Nationalists and high doses of victimhood, and not have to be taboo, as the nationalists have said many things without demonstrating and there is no reason that can not be refuted their arguments without anyone to believe that they are being attacked, and they know this very well used, use victimhood to shut mouths, thankfully in Spain and they do not, so I hope the same will happen in Europe.

Carlos
12-12-11, 22:39
Plese, stay with facts. The highest concentration of paleolithic mtDNA U5 has been found in modern Northern Navarrese (basque speakers) at 15-17%, also mtDNA H1,H2, and V is high in all the cantabrian-pyrenees fringe.

What are the concentrations in Lima (Peru), and what language they speak? or Haiti, the Philippines, Canary Islands. In ancient stories say that 3% of Arabs were able to turn an entire country to Islam.

I think tying the issue of Basque the only genetic data is just stuck in the investigation continue.

Taranis
12-12-11, 23:04
I personally tend to think that Basques are less Paleolithic than the average Iberians due to R1b influence, but I'll keep cautious waiting for more data. Anyways, they are largely European in autosomal results, doesn't matter what the influence is.

Well, I brought this up above regarding the non-IE vocabulary of Basque. Although we have no way to test which part of the vocabulary is "native", I think that it is fairly unlikely that Basque is a Paleolithic/Mesolithic language because that would mean that it had borrowed all it's vocabulary for farming and domesticated animals. I think it makes more sense if Basque is actually a Neolithic language which later on picked up other non-IE terms (horse, metal-working) during the Copper Age.

Carlos
12-12-11, 23:49
The same term to read and gather are similar in modern Basque, same view as in German and Latin, probably a vision and took the Basque term borrowed from Latin. Dismissing all the "pay for lacking" that must acquire other languages ​​Basque everything about jobs and development must be the key to the Celtiberian language.

Carlos
13-12-11, 16:52
Plese, stay with facts. The highest concentration of paleolithic mtDNA U5 has been found in modern Northern Navarrese (basque speakers) at 15-17%, also mtDNA H1,H2, and V is high in all the cantabrian-pyrenees fringe.

It is an example of human migrations in the area of the subject at hand and taking into account the continuing thereafter emigration movements in Spain itself, Romans, Visigoths, Muslim era, America until even after the expulsion of the-Muslims what credible relationship can have the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups cited in connection with the Basque language which gives an unproven old to date?, also noted that mitochondrial DNA may be responsible for the acquisition of Basque new words and better, in what may be grammatical constructions, and that if I keep my Basque origin hypothesis in a more archaic Iberian extra component would have to look to the DNA rather than mitochondrial, and if we consider that and should be a DNA varied according to the chronicles plus Roman also take into account all migrations into Iberia, Hispania and Spain, plus the fact that the heirs of more primitive Basque language today would not have the same DNA and that people that Hubis taken that language to the area, based on the DNA to justify business as usual, has not been moved or a leaf, would be like finding a needle in a haystack to find the DNA and those that led to the foreign dialect area north of modern Spain.

Los contactos de la cultura Argárica también se extienden hacia el Guadalquivir, dando lugar más tarde a Tartessos. Las penetraciones a través del Pirineo de otras culturas es constante y durará centenares de años. El impacto de estas migraciones es mayor en el interior y norte de la península que todavía no tiene el desarrollo de la zona meridional. Los nuevos pobladores son diestros en la explotación y fabricación de instrumentos de hierro. Las oleadas de inmigrantes se acercan por dos puntos: por las actuales Navarra y País Vasco por un lado, y por la zona oriental hasta Cataluña por otro. Traen mejores técnicas agrícolas y ocupan los espacios de la Meseta que son los que menos población tienen en esos momentos. Usaron los yacimientos de hierro del norte de España, y aplicaron la cultura cerealista y una ganadería extensiva. Siendo dominantes en el centro y parte noroccidental de España, lograron finalmente ser la clase dirigente en la zona de norte del Mediterráneo español, mientras que las culturas del sur y del sureste permanecieron más ajenas.