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edao
09-12-11, 16:50
Is this weeks summit resulting in an actual fiscal union or is this another Euro Gimmick to calm investors.
Do the voters of Europe want or even understand what is going on?

With the UK now marginalised can we really thrive on the fringes of Europe with the EZ increasingly pro-regulation of the Financial industry.

"Europe divided on Friday in a historic rift over building a closer fiscal union to preserve the euro, with an overwhelming majority of countries led by Germany and France agreeing to forge ahead with a separate treaty, leaving the EU's third biggest economy Britain isolated." source (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/12/09/uk-eurozone-idUKTRE7B30B120111209)

edao
09-12-11, 17:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzbBlx4kv2c&feature=g-u

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3btd8ZMQqs&feature=g-u

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxuvJj93moQ&feature=g-u

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8WuH1pMXYI&feature=g-u

Carlos
09-12-11, 17:28
The British have not been isolated, have isolated themselves.

I've said repeatedly, Europe must unite totally, for this country should give up and sacrifice in ways that are specific to them to build a different Europe for the future, and dream of the day when Russia joins the project , for this we must tear down many barriers, so much pride and abandon old ideas. U.K. has been the worst example, resisténdose, locking itself in a selfish and retrograde crying one day come knocking on the door of Europe

Mzungu mchagga
09-12-11, 17:35
The whole process (creation of fiscal union without Great Britain) was predictable, nothing surprising.

Antigone
09-12-11, 18:02
No it is not surprising at all, nor is Britain's reaction.

On the BBC this morning Cameron was being treated as the all conquering hero for standing up for Britain. Although, I can't figure out exactly how throwing his toys out of the pram and storming home is helpful to Britain, the sideline and further isolation doesn't seem such a good thing?

They did say that as long as Britain and Hungary is vetoing the new treaty that it couldn't go ahead anyway, so again, I'm not sure that anything was really achieved.

Vallicanus
09-12-11, 18:24
The British have not been isolated, have isolated themselves.

I've said repeatedly, Europe must unite totally, for this country should give up and sacrifice in ways that are specific to them to build a different Europe for the future, and dream of the day when Russia joins the project , for this we must tear down many barriers, so much pride and abandon old ideas. U.K. has been the worst example, resisténdose, locking itself in a selfish and retrograde crying one day come knocking on the door of Europe

Russia would never join the European club except as leader.

Britain remembers how most of the continent succumbed to German rule in 1939-40.
:rolleyes2:
If Belgians, Dutch, French and others want to be led by the Germans (a very able and industrious nation) so be it but the Brits won't accept this.

Britain wants economic links with the continent and protection for her financial services especially in the City of London. The UK rejects a German-led superstate.:useless:

kgnju
09-12-11, 19:01
Russia would never join the European club except as leader.

Britain remembers how most of the continent succumbed to German rule in 1939-40.
:rolleyes2:
If Belgians, Dutch, French and others want to be led by the Germans (a very able and industrious nation) so be it but the Brits won't accept this.

Britain wants economic links with the continent and protection for her financial services especially in the City of London. The UK rejects a German-led superstate.:useless:
Oh my god!You are really good at history!But today's Germany is not the one at WWII!And UK is not the one either.

Yetos
09-12-11, 19:24
Oh my god!You are really good at history!But today's Germany is not the one at WWII!And UK is not the one either.

But History repeats hershelf

slowly we will see who is right and who will win
considering that Greek and Italy are under parliamental dictatorship
then in future inner hates will rise

the problem today is who will win Bankers or people,
and who will have the chance to step to the future,

Seems like Europe is Becoming China or USSR

I think that is time for All european Countries to make referendum and not obey masters voice,

zanipolo
09-12-11, 20:06
Fiscal union only works in good times

Maciamo
10-12-11, 00:14
I have been advocating a fiscal union and more political integration for many years. The EU is unmanageable in the long-term otherwise.

Carlos
10-12-11, 00:39
Russia would never join the European club except as leader.

Britain remembers how most of the continent succumbed to German rule in 1939-40.
:rolleyes2:
If Belgians, Dutch, French and others want to be led by the Germans (a very able and industrious nation) so be it but the Brits won't accept this.

Britain wants economic links with the continent and protection for her financial services especially in the City of London. The UK rejects a German-led superstate.:useless:

Now it is sent to Germany, take the lead in Europe, too is doing and if you ever have to take Russia to take her, maybe some day think of what country sent or not, because then the image of a united Europe precedence over individual sovereignty, a long time for that, but it will be possible and then the future for freedom will be secured, if not get any crazy middle to spoil it all, but be positive. After centuries of struggle we are witnessing a new day for Europe.

kgnju
10-12-11, 13:21
But History repeats hershelf

slowly we will see who is right and who will win
considering that Greek and Italy are under parliamental dictatorship
then in future inner hates will rise

the problem today is who will win Bankers or people,
and who will have the chance to step to the future,

Seems like Europe is Becoming China or USSR

I think that is time for All european Countries to make referendum and not obey masters voice,
From an outsider's perspective, Europe needs more integration definitely!The 21st century is not the 19th century. Europe had already lost its hegemony. Today even powerful European countries such as Germany and France , UK is not powerful enough individually.They are somewhat small and can't compete those countries with continental size, such as Russia, the U.S., India,China,Brazil and so on.
Plus, most of European are offsprings of HG R1a,b and I.You are relatives and cousins. why not treat each other like family?Okey ,a joke~

edao
10-12-11, 16:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9y5iJCtp6Y&feature=g-u

Carlos
10-12-11, 17:07
kgnju
From an outsider's perspective, Europe needs more integration definitely!The 21st century is not the 19th century.

¡Bravo! finally someone realizes.

Yetos
10-12-11, 17:19
From an outsider's perspective, Europe needs more integration definitely!The 21st century is not the 19th century. Europe had already lost its hegemony. Today even powerful European countries such as Germany and France , UK is not powerful enough individually.They are somewhat small and can't compete those countries with continental size, such as Russia, the U.S., India,China,Brazil and so on.
Plus, most of European are offsprings of HG R1a,b and I.You are relatives and cousins. why not treat each other like family?Okey ,a joke~


except US which an indeed maybe ahead , and russia which is a strange country that can have immagination but also can copy production, the rest are nothing more than a Bank creation
History told us how chinese think,
the case of Mao and steel and mosquitos and sparrows is characteristic

China India become super powers cause Banks invest in them giving them technology and production,
in order to sell cola and buy their currency,
trillions of chinese currency exist in west
soon you will see chinese currency to raise much enough
remember the summer china bought huge amounts of Gold
just to have a stability in wuan or however is written
we all in the same world and we know,
and we all know that china soon will become hydrocephalic
china is after a long time dictatorship with huge support from west,
in order to make west bankers richer,
that long time is the desire of west bankers which want to do same in europe,

china is the favorite child of multinational corporations,
and one country I will not want to live cause is one of the champions in polution,
and enviromental disaster,

about India,
India is untamed world, like European south,
India suffers from Banking system as loans
big % (maybe I am wrong but the last I heard is 30%) own money to bankers and work vary cheap and sell kidneys etc
so the only to make the untamed S europe to obey is the India system,
that indeed is happening right now in south by 'sevants' Technocrats,
No referendum, etc

fiscal Union and it system as in today Europe reminds me the old ex-USSR
were technocrats from moscow went to govern soviets and countries etc

no matter were it will go and what the Future will Bring
if Britain stands and Veto then we might have the first no,
the problem is after kameron Veto what will be in england?
so Kameron must return and ask a referendum,
if he manage to get the ok from his people,
then surely Kameron will be a modern hero when he veto merkozy

the first No will bring many othar No
and the more No the more Democracy exists and works
something that is not known in China

a man that goes with 1000 virgins in china is God,
In Europe is smart or criminal or tyrrant
the tiger never wash his teeth in china
but in europe has a smelly breath

ElHorsto
10-12-11, 19:27
I'm highly sceptical about the credibility of our EU-leaders. The fiscal union now is a good measure for a probably BAD goal. I'm not convinced at all that the EURO or even the EU was designed for the benefit of Europeans. And I wonder also where are all those many transatlantics have gone actually. Cameron is smart, knowing Britain to be an "alpha" and should not join the "betas" for no reason. I'll change my opinion if ECB is allowed to create money directly. Germany and France are not the "alphas", but maybe "betas".

edao
10-12-11, 22:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-zp5Mb7FV0&feature=related

edao
10-12-11, 22:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEVqeaFHsHE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-sP3T2sNo8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmAyOasPfvo&feature=related

Yetos
11-12-11, 06:09
THE OTHER FACE

3 man go to the moon

they see a black sheep

tthe 1rst say so the sheep in moon are Black
the 2nd say no we don't know about the other sheep but simply we know that this sheep is black
the 3rd one say hmm the only sure is that this is sheep is that the side we look is Black, we do not know the other side if it is balck or another colour,



the numbers are correct

Ger 13,1 Bill Eu
France 8,8 Bill Eu
Spain 26,2 Bill Eu
Greece 30 bill Eu

the smallest is Netherlands with only 159 mill Eu

source
http://www.antinews.gr/2011/12/09/137713/

the total amount for this year until now is 114 Bill Eu to save the Banks
while estimations might send the number x2 to 250 bill Eu

Fiscal union is nothing more than save the Banks and the bubble money

just consider 114 billion euro are given gift to bankers !!!!!!!!!!
and in order to manage that they create fiscal Union
does that remind you another post with G30 trilaterals and their main idea ?
seems like people are voting puppets
and the biggest puppet is Mercozy

the chain works like this,
Save the Numbers
save the Banks
kill people or give them drugs
Bring immigrants
employ them with cheap salary
let them send hard currency in their countries,
more immigrants are born
more immigration to europe, more cheap salaries,
cheap salaries = profit

Europe is Dying, cause EUropeans do not Born children,


THE FISCAL UNION PROJECT

http://www.antinews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/save-the-banks.jpg

Yetos
11-12-11, 19:42
http://news247.gr/incoming/article1532262.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/Untitled+1.jpg


Something that was not Done in Greece and Italy
a referendum,

or maybe they send a Technocrat like Monti or Papademos to Brtain?

edao
11-12-11, 20:20
The media are incredibly shallow, they go on about the veto and a marginalised UK, but they haven't actually discussed what the veto was all about. The EZ are trying to put in place measures to insure that the Financial Services industry pays 'insurance' on the possibility of any future crisis. The UK see this as a threat to the City and have said no, but what exactly is the UK's position on stopping or providing for future financial collapses?

If the average UK voter understood what the financial transaction tax was and what vetoing it actualy meant I'm sure most would be pretty angry at the Conservatives stance. Currently the UK has no say on the future of Europe but has an open door to countires like Spain so all the 20% unemployed are coming here making it even harder for UK workers to get a job. It's total insanity your either all in or all out, sooner UK get the boot the better.

Cimmerianbloke
12-12-11, 00:20
Bad bad idea to put everyone in the same fiscal boat when there are such discrepencies in income, tax and government spending across the continent. It is a complete nonsense for the 250 million Europeans that have to deal with everyday problems. This Union is just an elite Union that ignores the people that work hard to finance her. I am not too worried as it is bound to fail. As far as I am concerned, the sooner will be the better. What makes me chuckle is that Paris and Berlin are pushing for more integration now that weak nations have their pants down, but France politicians, ahead of the presidential race, call for economic patriotism, and a poll from German news network NTV showed that 89% of the German people want the UK to get out of the EU. So much for European unity and integration...

Antigone
12-12-11, 06:12
The media are incredibly shallow, they go on about the veto and a marginalised UK, but they haven't actually discussed what the veto was all about. The EZ are trying to put in place measures to insure that the Financial Services industry pays 'insurance' on the possibility of any future crisis. The UK see this as a threat to the City and have said no, but what exactly is the UK's position on stopping or providing for future financial collapses?

If the average UK voter understood what the financial transaction tax was and what vetoing it actualy meant I'm sure most would be pretty angry at the Conservatives stance. Currently the UK has no say on the future of Europe but has an open door to countires like Spain so all the 20% unemployed are coming here making it even harder for UK workers to get a job. It's total insanity your either all in or all out, sooner UK get the boot the better.

Good post Edao. But it is not so much that the UK should be out of the EU, more that they should just make up their minds what it is they want.

From out here it seems that they want all the advantages of the EU but are not prepared to share any of the problems that will inevitably happen.

Cimmerianbloke
13-12-11, 00:10
What the UK wants has always been clear: access to the European market, but only for economic purposes. They were never interested into meddling into EU politics, and if they could have a special status to stay out of the EU but to keep a privileged access to sell their products, everybody would be happy. The problem is that Ireland is getting cooler towards Brussels because of the economic ties she has with the UK. A referendum is on the list, and that could be the next blow on Brussels pen-pushers' noses.

edao
13-12-11, 16:21
Italian, Spanish yields rise as ratings threat loomsItalian bond yields rose on Tuesday as markets fretted over the risk of sovereign rating downgrades across the euro zone after steps towards fiscal integration failed to ease the debt crisis in the short term. REUTERS (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/12/13/uk-markets-bonds-euro-idUKTRE7BC0KJ20111213)


I think there's going to be a Big Bang at the very heart of Europe in the next couple of months, and I'm not talking about the Hadron Collider :laughing:

Franco
13-12-11, 21:32
What the UK wants has always been clear: access to the European market, but only for economic purposes.

There is nothing wrong about that. Remember that when the UK entered the EU it was called EEC (European Economic Community). I guess that not many countries are trully interested in achieving the level of political union that the euro-core (France, Germany and Benelux) wants, not just UK. Even Germany herself uses the European union for economic purposes, that is, to sell their products to a big market. Given that the economy of the UK is services oriented and not industry and exportation oriented like the German one they don't benefit from the European market as much as Germany does in fact.

Maciamo
13-12-11, 22:28
What the UK wants has always been clear: access to the European market, but only for economic purposes. They were never interested into meddling into EU politics, and if they could have a special status to stay out of the EU but to keep a privileged access to sell their products, everybody would be happy. The problem is that Ireland is getting cooler towards Brussels because of the economic ties she has with the UK. A referendum is on the list, and that could be the next blow on Brussels pen-pushers' noses.

I doubt that the UK wishes to withdraw from the EU and lose its political influence. But if they are only interested in the common market nothing prevents them to join only the European Economic Area (EEA) like Norway and Iceland. It's probably not going to happen because Britons are as divided about EU matters as Americans were divided about electing G.W. Bush.

Cimmerianbloke
14-12-11, 04:14
It's exactly the point Cameron tries to underline at home. The UK signed up for a commercial cooperation within a common market, not for a bunch of second hand politicians to vote in-between them laws that will affect national sovereignty. The current trend in France show how two-faced the politicians can be, with Sarkozy preaching for a deeper fiscal harmonization and about everybody else pushing for protectionism and to favorise national businesses. Going back to a purely commercial zone without meddling political unity would be the most sensible thing to do. European integration is something that has to be decided in times of relative calm and without pressure to get people having treaties pushed down their throat when they are at their most vulnerable.

Franco
14-12-11, 05:31
The current trend in France show how two-faced the politicians can be, with Sarkozy preaching for a deeper fiscal harmonization and about everybody else pushing for protectionism and to favorise national businesses.

Good point.

edao
15-12-11, 15:44
"The idea of a European Financial Transaction Tax is not a new concept. In virtually every developed tax-system, levies on some sorts of financial transactions (stocks, bonds, derivatives, structured products, etc.) have existed. The FTT serves two main purposes: generating public revenues and regulating financial markets.

First, this tax on speculation will have a stabilizing and regulating effect on financial markets, by raising transaction costs, which in turn impedes speculation. Such a tax is a logical step for the European Financial system: to date, all revenues (including those from insurance or real estate) are in principle subject to taxes - but financial transactions are exempt! Speculators are the only profiteers from such a status quo, as they are the only sector relying only on financial transactions to generate revenue.
Moreover, as the funds could be allocated to social, environmental and global policies, an FTT could in turn mean massive returns for all, and in particular for the EU and European citizens. An extremely low tax rate of 0.05% would thus raise substantial and urgently needed additional revenues amounting to EUR 200 billion."

http://www.financialtransactiontax.eu/en/home

Vallicanus
16-12-11, 10:32
THE OTHER FACE

3 man go to the moon

they see a black sheep

tthe 1rst say so the sheep in moon are Black
the 2nd say no we don't know about the other sheep but simply we know that this sheep is black
the 3rd one say hmm the only sure is that this is sheep is that the side we look is Black, we do not know the other side if it is balck or another colour,



the numbers are correct

Ger 13,1 Bill Eu
France 8,8 Bill Eu
Spain 26,2 Bill Eu
Greece 30 bill Eu

the smallest is Netherlands with only 159 mill Eu

source
http://www.antinews.gr/2011/12/09/137713/

the total amount for this year until now is 114 Bill Eu to save the Banks
while estimations might send the number x2 to 250 bill Eu

Fiscal union is nothing more than save the Banks and the bubble money

just consider 114 billion euro are given gift to bankers !!!!!!!!!!
and in order to manage that they create fiscal Union
does that remind you another post with G30 trilaterals and their main idea ?
seems like people are voting puppets
and the biggest puppet is Mercozy

the chain works like this,
Save the Numbers
save the Banks
kill people or give them drugs
Bring immigrants
employ them with cheap salary
let them send hard currency in their countries,
more immigrants are born
more immigration to europe, more cheap salaries,
cheap salaries = profit

Europe is Dying, cause EUropeans do not Born children,


THE FISCAL UNION PROJECT

http://www.antinews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/save-the-banks.jpg


Great post!
All too true.

edao
16-12-11, 17:43
French Finance Minister Francois Baroin has become the latest senior figure in Paris to criticise weaknesses in the British economy. article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16222988)

Old rivalries die hard...

http://privatelibrary.typepad.com/.a/6a01156f7ea6f7970b0133f37447eb970b-450wi

Cimmerianbloke
27-12-11, 03:58
I found this article from London Mayor Boris Johnson interesting. Actually, the press in England seems pretty lukewarm to condemn Cameron. After all, his position does make sense and is the continuity of a long tradition of euro (currency)-scepticism. Fell free to comment...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/8950101/Were-right-about-the-euro-thats-why-Europe-is-angry.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/8950101/Were-right-about-the-euro-thats-why-Europe-is-angry.html)

zanipolo
27-12-11, 11:06
all the nations in europe which do not have the euro will/are better off. They can CONTROL their destiny.

The swedish finance minister won best european financial minister of 2011 and they do not have the euro ........!?


These 26 nations that signed for a new euro treaty and England did not, who is to say these 26 will sign when the treaty is ready for signing !
What happens if they do not?

Cimmerianbloke
27-12-11, 23:20
There is indeed a risk that an Irish referendum might fail Brussels hopes. Given the history of European referendums in Ireland, a second chance might be given to the Irish...(that's me being extremely ironic here).

Mzungu mchagga
30-12-11, 13:09
For those who understand German, this clip is really funny! :laughing:

It basically is a parody on a famous German short film, in which an old 90 year old lady 'Miss Sophie' celebrates her birthday, but all her guests she has invited have long ago passed away. Her butler James is forced to act as each one of the dead guests, and also drink their beverages, and gets drunk and drunk until he loses his self-control.

In this parody it is Merkel as Miss Sophie who calls for a summit each month, but nobody wants, or is unable, to attend her stupid summits anymore. Poor Sarkozy is her butler who drinks all the drinks of her guests until he is completely drunk. lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC6f2RB9iO8

julia90
27-02-12, 01:04
No to Fiscal unity..., yes to Tax Federalism (like it's basically as the actual situation)