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Kotroman
27-12-11, 19:38
I have been wonder for a long time now, about the possible link between Y-DNA haplogroup G2 with early Celtic Hallstatt culture and La-Tène civilization. If we look closely at the diffusion of haplogroup G2, it can with mine suggestion be associated with Celtic migrations. The mutation of G2 is highest in Europe, at the area around the Alps and other places, settled by the Celtic tribes; in Austria 8%, southern Germany 8%, Switzerland 8%, France 5%, Czech Republic 5%, Italy 7%, and in Cantabria over 10%. The deffusion is also high on the British Isles, clearly among the Welsh people. The mutation of G2 in Wales and England can also be associated with the Roman conquest of the Britain.
So, is it possible to put a link between haplogroup G2 with Hallstatt and La-Téne cultures, and the proto-Celts?

Taranis
27-12-11, 20:09
Welcome to the forum. :)

I would say that, although at first glance, there seems to be a match, it should be noted that Haplogroup G2 is vastly older than the cultures of Hallstatt/La-Tene, and has been found in Neolithic sites like Derenburg in Germany and Treilles in France. Ötzi the Iceman was also G2a4 and he lived some 2400 years before the Hallstatt period.

It's absolutely likely that many of the Celtic-speaking peoples were carriers of Haplogroup G2, but they did not originally spread this Haplogroup across Europe.

spongetaro
27-12-11, 20:53
I have been wonder for a long time now, about the possible link between Y-DNA haplogroup G2 with early Celtic Hallstatt culture and La-Tène civilization. If we look closely at the diffusion of haplogroup G2, it can with mine suggestion be associated with Celtic migrations. The mutation of G2 is highest in Europe, at the area around the Alps and other places, settled by the Celtic tribes; in Austria 8%, South Germany 8%, Switzerland 8%, France 5%, Czech Republic 5%, Italy 7%, and in Cantabria over 10%. The deffusion is also high on the British Isles, clearly among the Welsh people. The mutation of G2 in Wales and England can also be associated with the Roman conquest of the Britain.
So, is it possible to put a link between haplogroup G2 with Hallstatt and La-Téne cultures, and the Celtic migrations?

G2a might have make a big part of Halstatt and La Tène "common people" (not the Elite or the Warrior). As the ancient DNA from a German Urnfield site showed, R1b people only made a tiny portion of the whole Proto Celtic community. Even today you don't find more than 3% of R1b P 312 (the supposedly "proto Celtic subclade") around Halstatt

zanipolo
27-12-11, 21:58
if celtic was not completely G2 or R1b then was it an ancient european I haplotype. they did go down the dinaric mountain range as well

sparkey
27-12-11, 22:42
G2a might have make a big part of Halstatt and La Tène "common people" (not the Elite or the Warrior). As the ancient DNA from a German Urnfield site showed, R1b people only made a tiny portion of the whole Proto Celtic community. Even today you don't find more than 3% of R1b P 312 (the supposedly "proto Celtic subclade") around Halstatt

I don't think that the Urnfield sample showed that, its sample size was too small and geographically limited to let us draw any conclusions about the "whole Proto Celtic community."


if celtic was not completely G2 or R1b then was it an ancient european I haplotype. they did go down the dinaric mountain range as well

You're probably thinking of I2a2b, which was found in the Urnfield sample. Probably, other haplogroups were absorbed into the Proto-Celts at different times, but that's the one that most obviously expanded with the Halstatt/La Tene Iron Age population. It isn't present significantly in the Dinarics as far as I know.

Kotroman
27-12-11, 22:53
Welcome to the forum. :)

I would say that, although at first glance, there seems to be a match, it should be noted that Haplogroup G2 is vastly older than the cultures of Hallstatt/La-Tene, and has been found in Neolithic sites like Derenburg in Germany and Treilles in France. Ötzi the Iceman was also G2a4 and he lived some 2400 years before the Hallstatt period.

It's absolutely likely that many of the Celtic-speaking peoples were carriers of Haplogroup G2, but they did not originally spread this Haplogroup across Europe.

- Thank you!
Well, thank you for the answer. Of course it's obvious that Celts didn't spread this haplogroup across Europe at the first place. Same thing with R1a and Slavic connection. Haplogroup R1a is much older then the Slavic name, but was largely spreaded across the old continent with the migration of Slavonic tribes. Also haplogroup I1 is much older then Germanic branch of Indo-European population, but it frequency in southern and eastern Europe can only be associated with the Germanic tribes during the Migration period.
But can we in general term say the same thing about proto-Celts and haplogroup G2?

Taranis
27-12-11, 23:11
- Thank you!
Well, thank you for the answer. Of course it's obvious that Celts didn't spread this haplogroup across Europe at the first place. Same thing with R1a and Slavic connection. Haplogroup R1a is much older then the Slavic name, but was largely spreaded across the old continent with the migration of Slavonic tribes. Also haplogroup I1 is much older then Germanic branch of Indo-European population, but it frequency in southern and eastern Europe can only be associated with the Germanic tribes during the Migration period.
But can we in general term say the same thing about proto-Celts and haplogroup G2?

Well, I would like to return the question to you: who is a Celt? what is a Celt? The most common definition is via the speaking of Celtic languages. But, how can we determine this? Although we have texts written in Celtic languages from Spain, from France, from the Alps, the Celts were, for the greater part, an illiterate people. We do have evidence where Celtic people settled in Antiquity from ancient town names, but what was before that? Archaeology does not tell us anything about what language people really spoke. The Celtic languages are part of the Indo-European languages, and Proto-Indo-European is generally thought to have been spoken during the Copper Age (Chalcolithic) since the reconstructed vocabulary of Indo-European includes agriculture, domesticated animals, warfare and most importantly, metalworking. G2 has been in Europe since the Neolithic, and it may have been *the* dominant Y-Haplogroup of the first farmers in Europe. How could these people have spoken a Celtic language if the Proto-Indo-European language began only to diverge during the Copper Age? We obviously do not know when what we would perceive as Celtic languages started to be spoken, but it is unlikely to have been before the Bronze Age.

Alan
02-01-12, 21:53
I have been wonder for a long time now, about the possible link between Y-DNA haplogroup G2 with early Celtic Hallstatt culture and La-Tène civilization. If we look closely at the diffusion of haplogroup G2, it can with mine suggestion be associated with Celtic migrations. The mutation of G2 is highest in Europe, at the area around the Alps and other places, settled by the Celtic tribes; in Austria 8%, southern Germany 8%, Switzerland 8%, France 5%, Czech Republic 5%, Italy 7%, and in Cantabria over 10%. The deffusion is also high on the British Isles, clearly among the Welsh people. The mutation of G2 in Wales and England can also be associated with the Roman conquest of the Britain.
So, is it possible to put a link between haplogroup G2 with Hallstatt and La-Téne cultures, and the proto-Celts?

Some month ago I asked the same question. Indeed I think we can connect a good chunk of the G2 and R1b with Celts but not all of the G2 is Celtic also a good chunk has to be from the first neolthic farmers in Europe.

sparkey
03-01-12, 18:26
Some month ago I asked the same question. Indeed I think we can connect a good chunk of the G2 and R1b with Celts but not all of the G2 is Celtic also a good chunk has to be from the first neolthic farmers in Europe.

Those aren't mutually exclusive, though... surely, a lot of Neolithic remnants were absorbed into the Celtic population. I suppose the question is more: How much G2 entered Central & Western Europe during the Neolithic, and how much later, especially alongside the R1b that would become R1b-L11?

MOESAN
04-01-12, 00:21
Some month ago I asked the same question. Indeed I think we can connect a good chunk of the G2 and R1b with Celts but not all of the G2 is Celtic also a good chunk has to be from the first neolthic farmers in Europe.

we don't KNOW if an Y-R1b population is THE carrier of western I-E languages, we don't KNOW if they was a I-E.ized people but we know they are the bulk of the today and yesterday celtic speaking populations - Y-G2 DON'T SHOW us a common pattern of distribution with Y-R1b, only spots here and there among a sea of Y-R1b bearers, in Occident - so I don't sea why we have to link it with Celts or celtized people? Maybe I lacked some new discoveries?

Taranis
04-01-12, 00:28
we don't KNOW if an Y-R1b population is THE carrier of western I-E languages, we don't KNOW if they was a I-E.ized people but we know they are the bulk of the today and yesterday celtic speaking populations - Y-G2 DON'T SHOW us a common pattern of distribution with Y-R1b, only spots here and there among a sea of Y-R1b bearers, in Occident - so I don't sea why we have to link it with Celts or celtized people? Maybe I lacked some new discoveries?

Well, Haplogroup G2 has been now found from multiple Neolithic sites from Germany, France and Iberia (in addition, Ötzi was also shown to be G2), whereas the oldest R1b find in Europe - to date - is from the Bronze Age (circa 1000 BC). We do not know when R1b entered Western Europe, but at this point it is clear that it must have been either during the Copper Age or the Bronze Age. It remains to be seen if Y-DNA samples from the Beaker-Bell Culture yield any samples of R1b or not.

The bottom line is that Haplogrouop G2 is *the* dominant Y-Haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers in Europe, and that unless you assume the Indo-European languages are Neolithic (a strong case can be made that this isn't the case), there is no association with the Celts or other Indo-Europeans. We do not know the whole story, because the Iberian Neolithic site also unearthed Haplogroup E-V13, which is today most common on the Balkans (especially Albania and Greece).

MOESAN
04-01-12, 01:18
Well, Haplogroup G2 has been now found from multiple Neolithic sites from Germany, France and Iberia (in addition, Ötzi was also shown to be G2), whereas the oldest R1b find in Europe - to date - is from the Bronze Age (circa 1000 BC). We do not know when R1b entered Western Europe, but at this point it is clear that it must have been either during the Copper Age or the Bronze Age. It remains to be seen if Y-DNA samples from the Beaker-Bell Culture yield any samples of R1b or not.

The bottom line is that Haplogrouop G2 is *the* dominant Y-Haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers in Europe, and that unless you assume the Indo-European languages are Neolithic (a strong case can be made that this isn't the case), there is no association with the Celts or other Indo-Europeans. We do not know the whole story, because the Iberian Neolithic site also unearthed Haplogroup E-V13, which is today most common on the Balkans (especially Albania and Greece).

"to date " is the precise word -
I agree with you (and sorry for my bad english) - was I was telling was that, whatever the datations, the distribution of G2 and R1b seam very unrelated one together - if we believe in the Renfrew theory we can assume that I-E G2s had acculturated poor R1b "nomads" (the date of their presence is not the problem here) and yet, I would have to be proved (it's not ma personal bet)- + if R1b and G2 can be now connected in SOME regions, they don't show any community of demographic development and so no ancient travel hand by hand...

Taranis
04-01-12, 01:30
"to date " is the precise word -
I agree with you (and sorry for my bad english) - was I was telling was that, whatever the datations, the distribution of G2 and R1b seam very unrelated one together - if we believe in the Renfrew theory we can assume that I-E G2s had acculturated poor R1b "nomads" (the date of their presence is not the problem here) and yet, I would have to be proved (it's not ma personal bet)- + if R1b and G2 can be now connected in SOME regions, they don't show any community of demographic development and so no ancient travel hand by hand...

Well, what you might argue is that there is some kind of inverse correlation, that is, if we assume that R1b arrived in the Copper Age, the areas with elevated G2 would be those where the Neolithic population fared better against incoming invaders.

The reason I am opposed to Renfrew's Anatolian hypothesis is that the reconstructed core vocabulary of PIE is not that of a Neolithic farmer society, but definitely that of a Copper Age society, as it includes terms for horse, wheel and metals (especially copper). The only uncertain part is the Anatolian languages, which differ quite a bit from the rest of the Indo-European languages by having both archaisms and innovations not found elsewhere in IE, and there is additionally the dispute about wether Proto-Anatolian included some of the terms above or not. So, if even if we argue that Proto-Anatolian diverged from the rest of the IE languages earlier (the so-called "Indo-Hittite" hypothesis), we still must assume that all other branches (including Celtic) began to diverge only during the Copper Age.

zanipolo
04-01-12, 01:51
what about this claim

Confirming our I2b2 Alsatian Guittards' connection with Germany, we have recently learned that 3,000-year-old I2b2 Bronze Age skeletons found in 1980 in a family burial chamber in the Lichtenstein Cave of north central Germany were related to our I2b2 Alsatian Guittards' ancestors. Further tests are being conducted to learn more details about the Lichtenstein-Alsace relationship, but at this time we believe the two ancestral groups were distant cousins.

SPAIN AND ITALY. National Geographic's Genographic Project has tracked the distant ancestors of our R1b1b2 Guittard lines in central and southern France, Spain and Italy. These distant R1b ancestors moved west through Italy and into the warmer areas of Spain for refuge during the last Ice Age more than 16,000 years ago and then moved up into southern and central France when the weather became warmer about 10,000 years ago. Building on our information from Guittard tests in Toulouse, Larodde, Catalonia, and Nice, we are seeking suitable Guitard tests from Marseille, Aveyron, and northwestern Italy that may help us confirm whether these anticipated R1b1b2 Guittard patterns in Italy

zanipolo
04-01-12, 01:56
what about this claim

Confirming our I2b2 Alsatian Guittards' connection with Germany, we have recently learned that 3,000-year-old I2b2 Bronze Age skeletons found in 1980 in a family burial chamber in the Lichtenstein Cave of north central Germany were related to our I2b2 Alsatian Guittards' ancestors. Further tests are being conducted to learn more details about the Lichtenstein-Alsace relationship, but at this time we believe the two ancestral groups were distant cousins.

SPAIN AND ITALY. National Geographic's Genographic Project has tracked the distant ancestors of our R1b1b2 Guittard lines in central and southern France, Spain and Italy. These distant R1b ancestors moved west through Italy and into the warmer areas of Spain for refuge during the last Ice Age more than 16,000 years ago and then moved up into southern and central France when the weather became warmer about 10,000 years ago. Building on our information from Guittard tests in Toulouse, Larodde, Catalonia, and Nice, we are seeking suitable Guitard tests from Marseille, Aveyron, and northwestern Italy that may help us confirm whether these anticipated R1b1b2 Guittard patterns in Italy

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Guittard%20Family%20History%20Y-DNA%20Study/

Alan
04-01-12, 21:34
we don't KNOW if an Y-R1b population is THE carrier of western I-E languages, we don't KNOW if they was a I-E.ized people but we know they are the bulk of the today and yesterday celtic speaking populations - Y-G2 DON'T SHOW us a common pattern of distribution with Y-R1b, only spots here and there among a sea of Y-R1b bearers, in Occident - so I don't sea why we have to link it with Celts or celtized people? Maybe I lacked some new discoveries?
G2 was found in Neolthic sites of Spain, Germany, Austria and France. Obviously this marker was one of the dominant before something happened and it was replaced by other, particular R1b.

MOESAN
04-01-12, 23:52
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Guittard Family History Y-DNA Study/ (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Guittard%20Family%20History%20Y-DNA%20Study/)

I red it - it seams to me like a fairy tale for some reasons
- surnames (family) in France begun to be passed from father to children only about XIV°/XV° century, before being true patronymic names - even if the anthroponymic forms were older, before that they was not passed as patronymics - so a lot of people possessing same surnames aren't related at all -
- the Guithard or Gwithard or whatsoever celtic names was from different origin (maybe a brittonic *Gwyth << *Wic-t-+.... ("fight", "war" < see > latin 'vict-ory') and the majority of Guittard's from France or Catalunia are of germanic origin (Wit-hard')
- I find genealogists (good businessmen) very funny when attempting to discover familial links between people living in times separated by thousands of years, basing their "works" on apparent similarity of names forms ...

zanipolo
05-01-12, 00:58
I red it - it seams to me like a fairy tale for some reasons
- surnames (family) in France begun to be passed from father to children only about XIV°/XV° century, before being true patronymic names - even if the anthroponymic forms were older, before that they was not passed as patronymics - so a lot of people possessing same surnames aren't related at all -
- the Guithard or Gwithard or whatsoever celtic names was from different origin (maybe a brittonic *Gwyth << *Wic-t-+.... ("fight", "war" < see > latin 'vict-ory') and the majority of Guittard's from France or Catalunia are of germanic origin (Wit-hard')
- I find genealogists (good businessmen) very funny when attempting to discover familial links between people living in times separated by thousands of years, basing their "works" on apparent similarity of names forms ...

depends, i know one of the first used for naming and they where not nobility was Venice around 1100 .

I believe merchants and artisans had surnames

Hanseatic league and its burghers as well who had surnames.

I think you are refferring entirely to the peasantry

I am not justifying the link, I was more interested in the haplotype they found in certain areas.

MOESAN
06-01-12, 13:29
depends, i know one of the first used for naming and they where not nobility was Venice around 1100 .

I believe merchants and artisans had surnames

Hanseatic league and its burghers as well who had surnames.

I think you are refferring entirely to the peasantry

I am not justifying the link, I was more interested in the haplotype they found in certain areas.

OK & thanks
glad to know about the first surnames in Venice and some other areas (gaelic Irishmen had patronymics about IX° century according to someones -
but I was criticizing the artificial "links" made by some genealogists based on some seamingly common origin of names (tribes and men) -
about TGs we can already see that some Guittard's have Y-I2a2 and some Y-R1b2 - about this sort of I2a2 (L28? I'm no more sure of the "numero") there is a little "work" of a man called DE BEULE of Flanders, linking this HT of I2a2 (exI2b ex I1c) to the La Tène Celts -