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View Full Version : Assyrians.. what European ethnicities can they pass for? Choose all that apply.



oreo_cookie
28-12-11, 11:28
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oreo_cookie
28-12-11, 11:30
http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_5157/web.jpg?ver=12857955450001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_5290_2/web.jpg?ver=12857982260001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_7162/web.jpg?ver=12857955650001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_3852s/web.jpg?ver=12857955720001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_9095/web.jpg?ver=12857956160001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_9903-20copy/web.jpg?ver=12857956290001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_1077/web.jpg?ver=12857956440001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/Narsia-s-20Taste-202010-20--20208/web.jpg?ver=12930801140001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_8410a/web.jpg?ver=12857957330001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_8273/web.jpg?ver=12857955980001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_8484a/web.jpg?ver=12857957360001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_4669a/web.jpg?ver=12857955270001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_8485/web.jpg?ver=12857957370001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_8236a/web.jpg?ver=12857957220001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_3852/web.jpg?ver=12857955710001http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_9059a/web.jpg?ver=12857989060002http://gallery.mac.com/ashurmansour/100780/IMG_7200/web.jpg?ver=12857956480001

oreo_cookie
28-12-11, 11:33
http://cs9923.vkontakte.ru/u37263891/136388484/x_b50f9709.jpghttp://cs10729.vkontakte.ru/u19733827/134291722/x_00f06d03.jpghttp://cs872.vkontakte.ru/u19390079/-6/x_af985c93.jpghttp://cs1898.vkontakte.ru/u33578370/87807079/x_dc2bb869.jpghttp://cs10883.vkontakte.ru/u138403802/136333912/x_c79dc3b4.jpghttp://cs5776.vkontakte.ru/u1582605/-6/x_760d38fd.jpghttp://cs214.vkontakte.ru/u544439/652160/x_483dd701.jpghttp://cs9606.vkontakte.ru/u109147/-6/x_182e1204.jpghttp://cs9294.vkontakte.ru/u1998981/103874074/x_411bf55c.jpghttp://cs5939.vkontakte.ru/u4657162/8488229/x_4038816b.jpghttp://cs9661.vkontakte.ru/u1501850/-6/x_67a0ac5e.jpghttp://cs11343.vkontakte.ru/u1238327/142849708/x_8a27f11f.jpghttp://cs9646.vkontakte.ru/u326565/138398750/x_de980e46.jpghttp://cs10380.vkontakte.ru/u2358451/-6/x_a24df9d4.jpg

MOESAN
11-01-12, 01:00
spite a commonly dark to very dark pigmentation, they seam very variable for cranial and facial features - some could pass as southern Italians or Greeks, some as closer to Armenians, Georgians or even Kurds -
Could you precise me what do you mean by 'Assyrian'? Is it a religious minority in Syria or in surrounding lands?
thanks beforhand

sparkey
11-01-12, 18:51
Could you precise me what do you mean by 'Assyrian'? Is it a religious minority in Syria or in surrounding lands?

Wikipedia on Assyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people) (or in French (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyriens) if you'd prefer). They are a religiously diverse group, belonging to several Christian sects, and sometimes the term "Assyrian" takes a more narrow meaning to just mean those who are members of the Assyrian Church of the East. Autosomal DNA studies and anthropological studies tend to consistently show that they're basically the same group regardless of their religion, though, so the most common usage is to have "Assyrian" be the umbrella term used for Church of the East members, Chaldean Catholics, the Syriac Orthodox, etc.

If you're interested in learning more, I suggest you contact occasional Eupedia commenter Humanist, who is an expert. I can help as well, having done some research and having Chaldean & Syriac Catholic in-laws.

MOESAN
11-01-12, 20:21
Thanks, Sparkey

Carlos
12-01-12, 04:06
They are very homogeneous, it is difficult to correspond with others.

Humanist
12-01-12, 20:42
Wikipedia on Assyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people) (or in French (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyriens) if you'd prefer). They are a religiously diverse group, belonging to several Christian sects, and sometimes the term "Assyrian" takes a more narrow meaning to just mean those who are members of the Assyrian Church of the East. Autosomal DNA studies and anthropological studies tend to consistently show that they're basically the same group regardless of their religion, though, so the most common usage is to have "Assyrian" be the umbrella term used for Church of the East members, Chaldean Catholics, the Syriac Orthodox, etc.

If you're interested in learning more, I suggest you contact occasional Eupedia commenter Humanist, who is an expert. I can help as well, having done some research and having Chaldean & Syriac Catholic in-laws.

Thanks, sparkey. Please let me add a few notes. Hello, MOESAN. Regarding the nomenclature issue, please see the opinion of the eminent Assyriologist, Dr. Simo Parpola (http://www.helsinki.fi/science/saa/simo_cv.html), in my post here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26599-Did-you-know-that-Kurds(Kurdish-PeoPle)-are-Europeans&p=377379&viewfull=1#post377379), and copied below:


[I]t is important to draw attention to the fact that the Aramaic-speaking peoples of the Near East have since ancient times identified themselves as Assyrians and still continue to do so. The self-designations of modern Syriacs and Assyrians, Sūryōyō and Sūrāyā, are both derived from the ancient Assyrian word for "Assyrian", Aššūrāyu, as can be easily established from a closer look at the relevant words.

The word Aššūrāyu is an adjective derived from the geographical and divine name Aššur with the gentilic suffix -āyu. This name was originally pronounced [Aššūr], with a palato-alveolar fricative, but owing to a sound shift, its pronunciation was turned to [Aθθūr] in the early second millennium BC. The common Aramaic word for Assyria, Āθūr, reflects this pronunciation and in all probability dates back to the twelfth century BC, when the Aramean tribes first came into contact with the Assyrians. Towards the end of the second millennium, another sound shift took place in Assyrian, turning the pronunciation of the name into [Assūr]. Since unstressed vowels and even whole syllables were often dropped in Neo-Assyrian at the beginning of words, this name form later also had a shorter variant, [Sūr], attested in alphabetic writings of personal names containing the element Aššur in late seventh century BC Aramaic documents from Assyria. The Neo-Assyrian word [Assūrāyu], “Assyrian”, thus likewise had a shorter variant [Sūrāyu] in the seventh century. This variant is hidden behind standard orthography in Assyrian cuneiform texts, but its existence is confirmed by the classical Greek words for Assyrians and Assyria, which display a corresponding variation between forms with initial A- (Assúrios/Assuría) and ones without it (Súrios/Súros/Suría; see AppendixIII).The Greeks, who were in frequent contact with Assyria in the eighth and seventh centuries BC,57 would not have borrowed the word without the initial A-, had the Assyrians themselves not omitted it, since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of classical Greek phonology.

Phonologically, Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā perfectly agrees with Neo-Assyrian [Sūrāyu], while Syriac Sūryōyō displays an intrusive yod, which it shares with Greek Súrios and Suría. This intrusive yod surely is due to Greek influence, since in classical Syriac the word also occurs in the form Sūrōyō, in perfect agreement with the Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā. It is worth noting that Sūrāyā is reported to have a variant with initial A-, but this is avoided in careful speech, since it instinctively sounds incorrect in view of the classical Syriac Sūryōyō. Since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of Aramaic phonology, the lack of the initial A- in Sūrāyā/Sūr(y)ōyō cannot be due to internal Aramaic development but must go back directly to Neo-Assyrian.

Footnotes:
[Assūr] ~ [Sūr] has a perfect parallel in the NA forms of another important divine name, Ištar (NA [Iššār]), which was also realized as [Šār] in Neo-Assyrian, see PNA 1/I, xxv. As in the case of [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is effectively concealed behind the prodominantly logographic or ossified cuneiform spellings of the divine name ((d)15, dINNIN, dIŠ.TAR), but its existence is raised beyond any doubt by the NA spellings of the Urartian royal name Sarduri [Šārdūri], which is written varyingly as m(d)15-du-ri, mdINNIN-du-ri or msa-ar-du-ri in the Neo-Assyrian royal inscriptions (see PNA 2/I 568f; note also the spelling URU.15-BÀD-a-ni = Sarduriani in ABL 147 = SAA 5 97 r.11). The “rebus” spellings m(d)15-du-ri and mdINNIN-BÀD/du-ri, implying the short form [Šār], are already attested in several inscriptions of Tiglath-Pileser III from c. 740 BC, and continue to be found in the letters and inscriptions of Sargon II (721-705) and Assurbanipal (668-630; for the latter, note m15-BÀD LUGAL KUR.ur-arţi in Streck 1916, 84:40, and mdI[Š.TAR-du-r]i LUGAL KUR.ú-ra-ar-ţi-im-[ma], ABL 1240:4-5). Like [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is also explicitly attested in Aramaic alphabetic spelling (cf. šrdrq’l = md15–BÀD-qa-a-li [Iššār-dūr-qāli], AECT 31) and in NB spellings of the Neo-Assyrian name Issār-tarība (mdiš-šar–ta-ri-bi, mdiš-šár–ta-ribi, mšar–ta-ri-bi, mdšár–ta-ri-bi, md15–ta-ri-bi, and mdIŠ.TAR–ta-ri-bi, all referring tothe same person), see Zadok 1984, 4.

National and Ethnic Identity in the Neo-Assyrian Empire and Assyrian Identity in Post-Empire Times
Dr. Simo Parpola (Assyriologist)

Regarding our vernacular, "Sureth," here are the "Remarks on the Historical Background of the Modern Assyrian Language," by Cambridge Professor of Semitic Philology, Dr. Geoffrey Khan (http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/general_info/biographies/hebrew/Khan.htm):


In sum, the evidence adduced above demonstrates that the dialects of Modern Assyrian are unlikely to be direct descendants of the literary Syriac language,although they are undoubtedly related to it. Rather they existed side-by-side with it for centuries. Some of the features of the modern spoken dialects that differ from literary Syriac can be shown to have emerged at a much earlier period by the fact that they occasionally surface in written texts by a process of linguistic interference. Some features of morphology, moreover, are typologically more archaic than the corresponding features in Syriac. Likewise, some lexical items of the modern dialects are not attested in Syriac but have roots that can be traced to antiquity in the Akkadian language.

Further work by Dr. Khan, on the Assyrian dialects of N Iraq, specifically, the dialect of Barwar:


As already shown by Krotkoff (1985:124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [NortheasternNeo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, canbe traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

And, perhaps the most important data of all, the genetic data. Here is a recent post of mine, from another forum:

A comparison of speakers of Assyrian and Babylonian Aramaic, based on Dienekes' Dodecad K12a values, posted a bit below. Though, not a great many of the Jews and Mandaeans remain fluent in the language.

Map of Assyria and Babylonia:
5436

Assyrian-Aramaic (Northeastern Aramaic): Assyrians
Babylonian-Aramaic and Mandaic (Southeastern Aramaic): Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Mandaeans

Assyrian ASY
Babylonian1 IQJ
Babylonian2 IRJ
Babylonian3 MAN

Bits from the Iranica.com article on Mandaic (written by the Aramaic scholar, Christa Müller-Kessler):


Mandaic is the term for the Aramaic dialect of the last remaining non-Christian Gnostics from Late Antiquity, the Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran (Ḵuzestān). It belongs to the Southeastern Aramaic dialect group with Babylonian Talmudic Aramaic (Babylonian Jewish Aramaic) and Koiné Babylonian Aramaic. Mandaic can be considered with its pre-classical text corpus (magic literature) as one of the purest Late Aramaic dialects of the Southeastern branch (Nöldeke, 1875, p. VI) comparable to Christian Palestinian Aramaic of the Western branch.

Mandaic inherited abundantly phonetic,grammatical, and lexicographic features from Akkadian (Late Babylonian) that point to the fact that the Mandaeans’ origin cannot have been anywhere else than in Mesopotamia (Kaufman, 1974,pp. 163-64; Müller-Kessler, 2004).

In the area of loanwords, Mandaic inherited from Akkadian an abundance of termini technici concerning religion, but also many words in other areas. Despite the limitationin its attested lexicon, due to the loss of texts, Mandaic shows more Akkadian borrowings than any other Aramaic dialect. The Mandaean gnostic sect recruited from a Babylonian population, and a stock of Akkadian words had belonged to the idiom of that geographical area for some centuries.


5437

And, the corresponding K12a population values. The Mandaean sample, unfortunately, only stands at 2, in the population below:


ASY1 12 0 0 2 0 0 52 14 0 19 0 0
BAB1 12 0 0 0 0 0 48 14 0 24 0 1
BAB2 10 0 0 0 0 0 50 16 0 22 1 1
BAB3 10 0 0 0 0 0 47 19 0 22 0 1

The column K components, are as follows (left to right):

K1 Mediterranean
K2 Far_Asian
K3 Siberian
K4 North_European
K5 South_Asian
K6 West_African
K7 Caucasus
K8 Gedrosia
K9 East_African
K10 Southwest_Asian
K11 Southeast_Asian
K12 Northwest_African

oreo_cookie
21-01-12, 23:28
They are very homogeneous, it is difficult to correspond with others.

I would have thought homogenity would have made it easier to answer.

Carlos
23-01-12, 02:04
I would have thought homogenity would have made it easier to answer.


At least in appearance seem very homogeneous. Of all the questionnaires that you put me has been the most difficult. I went back to look at the pictures and I saw a substance that I have also seen in Eastern Europe, bet on Bulgaria, Malta.

oreo_cookie
29-01-12, 21:51
Another fact to point out is, much of northern Iraqi Arabs actually might be Arabized Assyrians.

oreo_cookie
07-02-12, 00:39
Anyone else have any pictures to add here?

julia90
28-02-12, 01:09
many of them can pass in southern italy and southern balkans.. on percentage they are more extreme of course

L.D.Brousse
13-03-12, 03:32
I was around Assyrians in Mosul during the war in 2008. There is a lot of Kurdish dna left in Mosul . I was at the Forward Operating Base called Diamondback which was the Mosul Airport before the war. Across the road was Forward operating base Marez on Marez was a 1600 hundred year old Saint Elijah monastery built by the Assyrians the US Army built a fence around it to protect it but who knows what has happened to it after we pulled out. I saw many red heads in Kurdistan and Mosul and surrounding areas I don't know if this a Kurdish thing or not below are some pics I took in Kurdistan just up the road from Mosul

L.D.Brousse
13-03-12, 03:36
couple more pics

L.D.Brousse
13-03-12, 03:46
in My opinion the majority of Assyrians or Kurds look middle eastern with a few European genes that surface from time to time they are defiantly a mixture. Remember Alexander was in this area as well as the Romans. The worst part of the war for me was not being able to visit sites I was always on missions outside the wire and plus it was not safe to take any tours. Kurdistan still has a Roman built bridge !!!!!

Wilhelm
13-03-12, 06:05
Well, in my opinion they don't pass anywhere in Europe, but given that you don't have an "other" option, I voted Southeast Europeans (Sicilians, Greeks, Bulgarians..) since these are closest genetically and geographically.

Yetos
13-03-12, 09:18
how about save Syria from the massacres, before we discuss about assyrians

L.D.Brousse
13-03-12, 15:39
Assyrians are also being killed daily in Mosul for being Christian the world don't talk about that to much but it's a fact. Saint Elijah monastery . Before the US invasion was being used as a headquarters for one of Saddam's Armour units they defaced it and used the cistern as a latrine

sparkey
13-03-12, 19:38
I saw many red heads in Kurdistan and Mosul and surrounding areas I don't know if this a Kurdish thing or not below are some pics I took in Kurdistan just up the road from Mosul

I've noticed that Kurds are occasionally redheaded, but haven't noticed that trend so much in Assyrians. In general, I notice more overlap with European phenotypes among Kurds than among most other Middle Eastern ethnicities. Assyrians, less so, although some things we know about their genetics, like the closeness of their Y-DNA R1b to European Y-DNA R1b, are interesting.

sparkey
13-03-12, 19:51
Assyrians are also being killed daily in Mosul for being Christian the world don't talk about that to much but it's a fact. Saint Elijah monastery . Before the US invasion was being used as a headquarters for one of Saddam's Armour units they defaced it and used the cistern as a latrine

The plight of the Assyrians in Iraq is something that the international community should be aware of. AINA (http://www.aina.org/) is a good resource for news about it.

Since the Iraq War, the situation hasn't exactly gotten better, either. My Assyrian in-laws who remain in Iraq have been targeted in multiple (http://www.aina.org/news/20101101122119.htm) attacks (http://www.aina.org/news/20101110203512.htm).

L.D.Brousse
13-03-12, 21:52
On Convoy missions through the city of Mosul we would pass a Christian church with a bravely lit cross.I often thought to myself how brave these people are to be surrounded by the enemy unarmed 24/7 and still refuse to hide their beliefs for safety

wormhole
09-08-12, 23:14
Italian, Maltese, Sicilian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Greek, and Bosnian

adamo
13-04-13, 02:23
They can pass as certain Greeks, Italians, Cretans, Sicilians, Cypriots, maybe a few spaniards or PortuguesePortuguese

American Idiot
20-11-13, 14:03
http://cs9923.vkontakte.ru/u37263891/136388484/x_b50f9709.jpghttp://cs10729.vkontakte.ru/u19733827/134291722/x_00f06d03.jpghttp://cs872.vkontakte.ru/u19390079/-6/x_af985c93.jpghttp://cs1898.vkontakte.ru/u33578370/87807079/x_dc2bb869.jpghttp://cs10883.vkontakte.ru/u138403802/136333912/x_c79dc3b4.jpghttp://cs5776.vkontakte.ru/u1582605/-6/x_760d38fd.jpghttp://cs214.vkontakte.ru/u544439/652160/x_483dd701.jpghttp://cs9606.vkontakte.ru/u109147/-6/x_182e1204.jpghttp://cs9294.vkontakte.ru/u1998981/103874074/x_411bf55c.jpghttp://cs5939.vkontakte.ru/u4657162/8488229/x_4038816b.jpghttp://cs9661.vkontakte.ru/u1501850/-6/x_67a0ac5e.jpghttp://cs11343.vkontakte.ru/u1238327/142849708/x_8a27f11f.jpghttp://cs9646.vkontakte.ru/u326565/138398750/x_de980e46.jpghttp://cs10380.vkontakte.ru/u2358451/-6/x_a24df9d4.jpg
who do they overlap with?
some of those women can sit in my lap anytime. LOL

MOESAN
12-10-14, 17:53
Thanks, sparkey. Please let me add a few notes. Hello, MOESAN. Regarding the nomenclature issue, please see the opinion of the eminent Assyriologist, Dr. Simo Parpola (http://www.helsinki.fi/science/saa/simo_cv.html), in my post here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26599-Did-you-know-that-Kurds(Kurdish-PeoPle)-are-Europeans&p=377379&viewfull=1#post377379), and copied below:



National and Ethnic Identity in the Neo-Assyrian Empire and Assyrian Identity in Post-Empire Times
Dr. Simo Parpola (Assyriologist)

Regarding our vernacular, "Sureth," here are the "Remarks on the Historical Background of the Modern Assyrian Language," by Cambridge Professor of Semitic Philology, Dr. Geoffrey Khan (http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/general_info/biographies/hebrew/Khan.htm):



Further work by Dr. Khan, on the Assyrian dialects of N Iraq, specifically, the dialect of Barwar:



And, perhaps the most important data of all, the genetic data. Here is a recent post of mine, from another forum:

A comparison of speakers of Assyrian and Babylonian Aramaic, based on Dienekes' Dodecad K12a values, posted a bit below. Though, not a great many of the Jews and Mandaeans remain fluent in the language.

Map of Assyria and Babylonia:
5436

Assyrian-Aramaic (Northeastern Aramaic): Assyrians
Babylonian-Aramaic and Mandaic (Southeastern Aramaic): Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Mandaeans

Assyrian ASY
Babylonian1 IQJ
Babylonian2 IRJ
Babylonian3 MAN

Bits from the Iranica.com article on Mandaic (written by the Aramaic scholar, Christa Müller-Kessler):
5437

And, the corresponding K12a population values. The Mandaean sample, unfortunately, only stands at 2, in the population below:


ASY1 12 0 0 2 0 0 52 14 0 19 0 0
BAB1 12 0 0 0 0 0 48 14 0 24 0 1
BAB2 10 0 0 0 0 0 50 16 0 22 1 1
BAB3 10 0 0 0 0 0 47 19 0 22 0 1

The column K components, are as follows (left to right):

K1 Mediterranean
K2 Far_Asian
K3 Siberian
K4 North_European
K5 South_Asian
K6 West_African
K7 Caucasus
K8 Gedrosia
K9 East_African
K10 Southwest_Asian
K11 Southeast_Asian
K12 Northwest_African

I'm late but:THANKS !!!