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View Full Version : What do folks from the Ibr. Peninsula and the Brit. Isles think about haplogroup R1b?



Goga
29-12-11, 03:08
Option 1: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Mesopotamia through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 2: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Nile Delta and the Fertile Crescent (the Mesopotamia + Levant) through the eastern part of the Mediterranean coast. And then moved up to the Pontic-Caspian steppe from West Asia.

Option 3: It's from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and later migrated into the Fertile Crescent and Europe.

Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 5: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Fertile Crescent and the Eastern part of the Mediterranean coast.


Since the majority of this haplogroup is around the Iberian Peninsula & and the British Isles and when we talk about R1b we mostly talk about the origin of these folks. I'm interested very much in what they think about themselves!


Also,

Is it possible that Phoenicians were actually R1b folks and didn't belong to J2 haplogroup?

Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?

Goga
29-12-11, 03:30
I voted for option 1, but I'm originally from Kurdistan and not from Europe.

Taranis
29-12-11, 03:31
Option 1: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and even into the Mesopotamia through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 2: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and even into the Nile Delta and the Fertile Crescent (the Mesopotamia + Levant) through the Eastern part of the Mediterranean coast. And later moved up to the Pontic-Caspian steppe from West Asia.

With the intention to not sound blunt, nobody seriously believes (since circa 2008) that R1b is native to Western Europe.


Option 3: It’s from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and later migrated into the Fertile Crescent and Europe.

Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 5: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Fertile Crescent.

Since the majority of this haplogroup is in that area and when we talk about R1b we mostly talk about the origin of these folks. I'm interested very much in what they think about themselves and not what other people say.

Is it possible that Phoenicians were actually R1b folks and didn’t belong to J2 haplogroup?

Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?

You are making a lot of blunt assumptions here, especially that somehow one ethnic group = one Haplogroup, which is something that just doesn't exist.

You seem otherwise completely unaware of the structure of R1b subclades and their distribution. For that purpose, I shall link you to Maciamo's tree of R1b, which will give you an overview:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

Goga
29-12-11, 03:43
With the intention to not sound blunt, nobody seriously believes (since circa 2008) that R1b is native to Western Europe.I know, but it is still possible! I know that in Europe the ancient R1b subclade is not found yet.

And I'm familiar with your opinion and that of Maciamo. I want to know what other folks believe!


You are making a lot of blunt assumptions here, especially that somehow one ethnic group = one Haplogroup, which is something that just doesn't exist.True, point taken!


You seem otherwise completely unaware of the structure of R1b subclades and their distribution. For that purpose, I shall link you to Maciamo's tree of R1b, which will give you an overview:I'm aware of that phylogenetic tree! I don't dispute it, but how do I know that this tree is without mistakes?

Btw, It says that P25 (R1b1*) is from the Black Sea. But precisely where from? From the northern parts of the Caucasus near the Pontic-Caspian steppe and Russia/Ukraine, Southern Caucasus abetween Geroga - Anatolia or from the European part (Rumania) of the Black Sea?

Goga
29-12-11, 05:03
Look what I've found. But how true is this, hmmmmmm????



"Most Britons descended from male farmers who left Iraq and Syria 10,000 years ago (and were seduced by the local hunter-gatherer women)

... Most Britons are direct descendants of farmers who left modern day Iraq and Syria 10,000 years ago, a new study has shown.After studying the DNA of more than 2,000 men, researchers say they have compelling evidence that four out of five white Europeans can trace their roots to the Near East..."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1244654/Study-finds-Britons-descended-farmers-left-Iraq-Syria-10-000-years-ago.html

Taranis
29-12-11, 15:26
Look what I've found. But how true is this, hmmmmmm????

The Daily Mail is not exactly a reliable source on genetics, now is it? Also, I might remember you about the paper regarding ancient (Neolithic) DNA from Treilles in southern France (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108/suppl/DCSupplemental), which showed an absence of R1b in an area where today ~70% of the population are R1b.

I really have to wonder why you keep bringing this up, anyways. With a complete absence of R1b from ALL Neolithic sites in Germany, France and Iberia, it is extremely unlikely that R1b arrived in Western Europe before the Copper Age.

rms2
29-12-11, 20:06
I voted Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

That seems a good guess, although Option 5 is also reasonable.

Goga
30-12-11, 00:47
Thanks for the answers guys.

razor
30-12-11, 16:43
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.

Yetos
30-12-11, 18:05
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.


The story of Driopes say that Druids came from minor Asia to Greece and from there moved west and North,
just seek where we Find the Druids 1500 years later, among Celtic speaking tribes,

razor
30-12-11, 18:48
Why should the story of Driopes be more accurate than the stories of Snorri Sturluson? What makes it escape the label of interesting old fairy tale?

LeBrok
30-12-11, 18:57
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.

Epicenter of lactose tolerance in Europe better muches Corded Wear culture, therefore R1a people.

It also might be a similar case as with blondism. Being based in autosomal DNA it doesn't fallow Y HG anymore, and lactose tolerance stays mostly with best herding areas than with HG. Light skin stays in areas where is most advantages, and lactose tolerance stays in areas where it is more advantages for population. Somehow these two areas match.

Interesting is that, when you look at the lactose map, you will see that coastal areas are more lactose intolerant than the rest. Probably extra calories from sea food was always making up for it, and drinking milk wasn't as beneficial there as in deeper continent.



Another worth attention fact is that R1a people were milk drinkers but not beef eaters. This is common from Poland to India. All the beef they ate were the young bulls. Cows were always left to give milk for dairy products till they died.

R1b is more correlated with beef eaters. I'm not sure about wester Europe, but in America (mainly based on western europe culture) beef is the king of meats), stakes, burgers, sausages, etc all beef.

R1a in eastern europe is more pork oriented, poultry, eggs, rye and lots of dairy, cabbage. This is as true today, as was 3,000 years ago. Some of it wasn't brought in by R1a but assimilated from locals, probably I people.

razor
30-12-11, 19:19
Epicenter of lactose tolerance in Europe better muches Corded Wear culture, therefore R1a people.



I think the Jean Manco theory (but you can check it out at her website) suggests that Corded Ware was a mixed haplogroup culture, with R1a initially dominant, but R1b present as a sort of junior partner and then "taking off". She associates lactose tolerance with incoming R1b's due to their milking economy. LT then spread out more. You can debate her on Dna-forums if you like.P.S. In other words, R1a got LT from R1b, and R1b got the IE speech from R1a.

sparkey
30-12-11, 19:35
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.

I think this is an intriguing possibility that I'm not ready to discount. R1b-L11 seems to me to obviously be a post-Neolithic expansion on Central and Western Europe, postdating the initial Corded Ware expansion. It's not impossible to imagine some of the Corded Ware spillover that expanded being an small R1b minority that got lucky. The trick, I think, will be to get a better understanding of pre-L11 R1b subclades. Not so much R1b-ht35, as that's actually not the closest, but rather ones like R1b L11- L51+. A difficulty is that modern L11- L51+ doesn't have an obvious match with Corded Ware, with samples in Italy, Croatia, Turkey, Yemen... samples from Poland I suppose could be evidence... but there's nothing in Ukraine or Russia discovered so far. I think that leaves things ambiguous.

Goga
30-12-11, 23:02
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.Thanks, very interesting view of point if you believe that R1b is from (West) Anatolia! This would explain some non-West European R1b in Greece.

Taranis
30-12-11, 23:36
I have moved the discussion about the Kurdish language into a separate thread in linguistics.

It can be found here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27185-R1b-Migration-(OFFTOPIC-about-Kurdish-language)).

rms2
31-12-11, 02:31
Epicenter of lactose tolerance in Europe better muches Corded Wear culture, therefore R1a people . . .


It seems to me lactase persistence in its European incarnation as the T-13910 allele is much more frequent in R1b-dominated regions of Europe than it is in R1a-dominated regions.

A recent study of the Basques found the sample population about 93% lactase persistent.

Besides that, interestingly, the Fulani of Africa, who have a high frequency of R1b-V88, also carry the European version of lactase persistence at a fairly high frequency: http://www.malariajournal.com/content/10/1/9.

No R1a there, as far as I know.

Eochaidh
01-01-12, 04:01
It seems to me lactase persistence in its European incarnation as the T-13910 allele is much more frequent in R1b-dominated regions of Europe than it is in R1a-dominated regions.

I find that graphics are a big help to me in following these discussions. Here is the best one that I have regarding lactase persistence. It looks to me that it is most prevalent in the R1b regions too. It's small, but if you click it you can see it better.

5434

Bahadir
02-01-12, 15:51
It is known that many people have 5-7 years after the body stops producing the enzyme lactase that breaks down lactose in the small intestine. However, after about 6-9 thousand years ago, there was tolerance to lactose gene, which gave the carriers of this gene advantages in the struggle for survival and allowed to spread widely.

I believe that the emergence of lactose tolerance gene was associated with the domestication of horses, and start eating fermented mare's milk.

The composition of mare's milk is significantly different from the composition of milk cows and other animals. It contains a 2-fold less protein, fat and minerals, almost 1.5 times more lactose than cow's. The quantity and composition of proteins and lactose content of mare's milk (6.4%) is close to the female (6,6-7,0%).

Recent discoveries on Botai culture suggest that Botai culture settlements in the Akmola Province of Kazakhstan are the location of the earliest domestication of the horse.

According to others first domesticated the horse in modern Bashkortostan representatives Agidelevskaya culture.

I believe that the first domesticated horses 7-9 thousand years ago, representatives of haplogroup R1b, who lived in the Southern Urals and adjacent plains. Domestication of the horse led to the emergence of lactose tolerance gene. As well as possible carriers of R1b spread around the world, to conquer Europe.

Taranis
02-01-12, 16:29
I find that graphics are a big help to me in following these discussions. Here is the best one that I have regarding lactase persistence. It looks to me that it is most prevalent in the R1b regions too. It's small, but if you click it you can see it better.

5434

I would like to point out that there is another interpretation to this, specifically that you have a massive founder effect in both Western Europe and Scandinavia. To pick two examples: central and southern Italy both have fairly high levels of R1b yet very low levels of lactase persistence, and conversely much of Scandinavia has relatively lower levels of R1b but a much higher level of lactase persistence.

Goga
02-01-12, 16:36
Recent discoveries on Botai culture suggest that Botai culture settlements in the Akmola Province of Kazakhstan are the location of the earliest domestication of the horse.

According to others first domesticated the horse in modern Bashkortostan representatives Agidelevskaya culture.

I believe that the first domesticated horses 7-9 thousand years ago, representatives of haplogroup R1b, who lived in the Southern Urals and adjacent plains. Domestication of the horse led to the emergence of lactose tolerance gene. As well as possible carriers of R1b spread around the world, to conquer Europe."Horses Domesticated 9,000 Years Ago in Saudi Arabia

Previous estimates had dated horse domestication back only 5,000 years."



http://news.discovery.com/animals/horse-domestication-saudi-arabia-110825.html

Bahadir
02-01-12, 17:01
In Saudi Arabia have been found only horse figurines. This is unconvincing evidence of taming horses. After all, no one comes to mind is to talk about taming a mammoth on the basis of figurinesof mammoths. In Botai had found traces of kumis on the dishes, bridle and other more compelling evidence.

Pi gman
16-02-13, 19:19
In my opinion it is entirely possible that some of the Phoenicians were in fact R1b1a. They were a mixed group, however, because Phoenicians were a conglomerate of city states and had people of different religions. Because of their trading relationships with Greece Phoenicians became Greek around 2100 years ago. One example of this is where the Nobles of Phokia and Smyrna relocated with members of these cities to start the city of Marseilles and other trading ports and over time they became French. There is an excellent y-DNA study of this but I cannot post the link. Google:
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsicaand it should take you there.

zanipolo
16-02-13, 20:25
In my opinion it is entirely possible that some of the Phoenicians were in fact R1b1a. They were a mixed group, however, because Phoenicians were a conglomerate of city states and had people of different religions. Because of their trading relationships with Greece Phoenicians became Greek around 2100 years ago. One example of this is where the Nobles of Phokia and Smyrna relocated with members of these cities to start the city of Marseilles and other trading ports and over time they became French. There is an excellent y-DNA study of this but I cannot post the link. Google:
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica

and it should take you there.

this is good

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297%2808%2900547-8

Pi gman
16-02-13, 22:11
Apologies to everyone, I meant to post my previous message as a reply to this post:


Option 1: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Mesopotamia through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 2: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Nile Delta and the Fertile Crescent (the Mesopotamia + Levant) through the eastern part of the Mediterranean coast. And then moved up to the Pontic-Caspian steppe from West Asia.

Option 3: It's from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and later migrated into the Fertile Crescent and Europe.

Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 5: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Fertile Crescent and the Eastern part of the Mediterranean coast.


Since the majority of this haplogroup is around the Iberian Peninsula & and the British Isles and when we talk about R1b we mostly talk about the origin of these folks. I'm interested very much in what they think about themselves!


Also,

Is it possible that Phoenicians were actually R1b folks and didn't belong to J2 haplogroup?

Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?

Ziober
17-02-13, 01:01
pinturas rupestres en cuenca:


http://www.vocesdecuenca.com/adjuntos/fichero_11081_20110307.jpg

The horse domestication in Iberia, independent:

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse_breeds/iberian_horse/333/1

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018194

http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada%20caballos/Pinturas%20ecuestres.htm

Pi gman
17-02-13, 19:44
So these article say that the horse was domesticated in Iberia before they were in France?

LeBrok
17-02-13, 20:02
pinturas rupestres en cuenca:




The horse domestication in Iberia, independent:

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse_breeds/iberian_horse/333/1

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018194

http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada%20caballos/Pinturas%20ecuestres.htm

I'm sorry, but these links don't show independent domestication in Iberia. It just show domestication of some small horses, with only possibility of being independent.

Even in these articles they mention that only MtDNA is local. All Y DNA point to Ukrainian steppe as origin of all modern horses.
It means that East European steppe stallions were introduced to local mares in all Europe and Asia.

Ziober
17-02-13, 20:18
I think so Pi gman. Lebrok, there are two diferent horse races one ponny and the equus ferus. In the second link says that in modern lines there are maternal lineages from iberian horses, but it doesn't mean that always was that way. As the sows works for ride on, the boars the same, or what do you think?

Pi gman
17-02-13, 21:29
Yes, the cave drawings show very clearly that the horses were put in a fenced in area and they were harnessed for riding and even for pulling things. Maybe I missed it but why can't they just carbon date the dyes used in the colors of the cave paintings?

Ziober
17-02-13, 23:20
I'm wondering myself the same Pi gman.

Pi gman
18-02-13, 00:02
The reason I was lead to this site: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean is that I have several y-DNA matches in Smyrna and Phocaea, Greece. Here are the results of my comparison to this study:

The Y-DNA of Curtis Pigman (http://www.genebase.com/in/indiSummary.php?niId=12322872&view=ydna) was compared to a dataset of 2 populations in 1 journal using 6 Y-DNA STR markers. The closest matches in a set of 2 populations are listed in the table below:


http://indigenousdna.genebase.com/image/ico_pdf.gif (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/21401952/?tool=pubmed) Smyma, Greece (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/21401952/?tool=pubmed)
http://indigenousdna.genebase.com/image/spacer.gif
RMI: 236.67


http://indigenousdna.genebase.com/image/ico_pdf.gif (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/21401952/?tool=pubmed) Phocaea, Greece (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/21401952/?tool=pubmed)
http://indigenousdna.genebase.com/image/spacer.gif
RMI: 163.33



Curtis Pigman's Y-DNA STR markers (http://indigenousdna.genebase.com/dnaView.php?niId=12322872&type=y) were compared to the following 2 populations:


Population
Continent
Category
Size (N)


Smyma, Greece
Europe
Indigenous
45


Phocaea, Greece
Europe
Indigenous
26


Appendix 4: Raw Comparison Results
The results of this comparison are based on the following raw analysis data:
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:


Population Set
# Matches
Population Size
Match %


Smyma, Greece
1
45
2.22%


Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:


Population Set
# Matches
Population Size
Match %


Smyma, Greece
6
45
13.33%


Phocaea, Greece
2
26
7.69%


Matches at a Genetic Distance of 3:


Population Set
# Matches
Population Size
Match %


Phocaea, Greece
5
26
19.23%


Smyma, Greece
5
45
11.11%


Matches at a Genetic Distance of 4:


Population Set
# Matches
Population Size
Match %


Phocaea, Greece
3
26
11.54%


Smyma, Greece
3
45
6.67%



So this could make a case at least for my R1b L2+Z49+and Z142+ being Ionian Greek/French. I know it is not proof but it is a hint.


Apologies to everyone, I meant to post my previous message as a reply to this post:


this is good

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297%2808%2900547-8

AdeoF
06-03-13, 23:37
I voted for the 1st one but I can see most people are saying that it came from Turkey and into Europe. But yea the Celts did take over some parts of Anatolia.

RobertColumbia
21-06-15, 04:07
...
Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?

Doubtful. If this were the case, you would expect to see linguistic and/or cultural ties between Iraq, the steppe, and western Europe. What we do see is that the Sumerian language cannot be identified as related with any other language, and the linguistic and cultural elements that we do have that are derived from or at least have a parallel in Sumeria (e.g. the Deluge) are filtered through a Semitic source (Babylonian and/or Hebrew).

Ed the Red
26-08-17, 18:43
Both the Irish/Scottish gaels, know they were in Spain before they continued to Ireland. They were the last influx of Celtic invaders that I conclude were Cimmerian's originally

Ed the Red
26-08-17, 19:03
The presence of Galatia in Anatolia from what I've come to learn can probably be attested to Cimmerians attacking the hittite empire and settling there. In fact It could have been the Cimmerian's that were the cause of the demise of the Hittite empire. And from there to Spain, and then to Ireland.

Ed the Red
26-08-17, 19:17
The influx of Celts into Iberia created celtiberians

Ed the Red
26-08-17, 19:25
The predominantly R1b branch of the Indo Europeans were cimmerians and then Celts.

ROS
27-08-17, 02:23
The problem in Iberia is not only that there are several Celtic languages some Q-Celts quite old and with empirical evidence of their existence, but that there is even a pre-celtic language, such as Lusitanian, also with empirical evidence of its existence. The Iberian peninsula has these high percentages of r1b and H1 ?, the theories exposed so far do not convince me too much.

I voted Anatolia steppe, but I think there was another migration through Anatolia (at least we have proof that it was spoken Indo-European) Mediterranean, Greece, Italy, peninsula Iberia, separating the areas of influence of R1A and languages satem and R1B and languages Centum, why of course this dissociation between R1A and R1B in Europe?This separation between R1B and R1A in Europe can not be explained until two distinct migrations from anatolia are thought of.

Elizabeth60
27-08-17, 04:58
Both the Irish/Scottish gaels, know they were in Spain before they continued to Ireland. They were the last influx of Celtic invaders that I conclude were Cimmerian's originally

The problem with that though is that R1b in Irish/Scots is predominantly L21 and in Spain it is DF27. I think most people now know that Bell Beakers are primarily the culprits that spread R1b.

ROS
27-08-17, 16:14
The problem with that though is that R1b in Irish/Scots is predominantly L21 and in Spain it is DF27. I think most people now know that Bell Beakers are primarily the culprits that spread R1b.

That is scientifically according to carbon fourteen certain branches R1B spread from Portugal to the rest of europe?

I am not talking about hypotheses but deductions based on scientific evidence.

L21 and DF27 sister branches, apart from L21 amount very considerrable northern peninsula iberica.

I do not like to remember these things but according to the only scientific tests to date made with carbon 14 the origin of the base of bell is in Portugal, the other for the moment are hypotheses and theories.

MOESAN
03-09-17, 00:36
Irish and Scottish people do'nt know their ancestors came from Iberia. Irish myths spoke of many "invasions" (from 3 to 6) from outside Ireland without precising who was Celt or not: their legends contain variants and have to be analysed with great caution (they are mixing other sources picked here and there as the Tribes of Israel dispersion and similar stuff: Scythes and Co); let's say they are almost useless to historians; the only interesting thing are the names like 'Fir Bolgs' and 'Fir Domnann' and 'Fir Galliôin' which could be true tribes with Celtic origin: Belgae, Dumnonians and Laigin (or Galli?), all that taken with an heavy spoon of salt.
the Cimmerians moved from their eastern territories only very lately (10th-7th Cy?), too late to be at the origin of known Celtic peoples; by the way their name has no common origin with the Cimbri and Cambria names

Ed the Red
04-09-17, 05:44
Did you only read part of the Irish Book of Invasions? It states clearly about milesians son of mil. Who were known to be Irish Gaels and the last of the Celts to invade Ireland.
And when you've finished that I suggest you read ALL of the Declaration of Arbroath. It is the Scottish claim to independence written to the Pope. It specifically claims them starting in greater Scythia then travelling the Mediterranean where they end up in Spain for a time before moving to Ireland and finally to Scotland. There's no way to refute this claim.
I

Ed the Red
04-09-17, 05:50
And the Cimmerian's relocating around the 10th - 7th century B.C. actually helps my argument for the 7th century B.C. is precisely when the celtic Hallstatt culture starts haha thanks

Ed the Red
04-09-17, 06:15
You should get your facts straight. First of all the ten tribe b.s. has no place here. This is one of the only sites where it is never stated because genetics is the truth. The ten tribe is a total fallacy, you would have a better chance to get me to believe Jesus was actually a Celt. After all he was a GALilean, It doesn't make sense to be murdered by your own people either. It makes more sense that he was alienated because he was different and celtic.

Ed the Red
04-09-17, 06:26
And the just cause they were in Iberia doesn't mean they were Iberian, Iberia is not where they started. They started as Indo European nomadic raiding warrior horsemen from the steppes i.e. scythian, cimmerian. Did not the R1b strain start from the Indo Europeans and become predominantly celtic?
The ten tribes were wiped out by Assyrians in the 7th century B.C. Are you trying to say there wasn't an enormous tribe of nomads in Scythia before the 7th century haha.

Ed the Red
04-09-17, 06:46
Actually I just checked the Irish Book of Invasions again. So both the Irish and Scottish histories claim a scythian origin!

halfalp
04-09-17, 14:40
This kind of Poll is clearly for amateurish people trying to write history with various datas... In 2015 Johns says that yamna was 50% ehg and 25 / 25 whg chg, know its i dont how much CHG and Iran, iran and iran, Lazaridis even try to tell us that yamnaya was levant, anatolia and iran neolithic melting pot... But that data is only coherent with late chalcolithic such as cultural maykop... How could R1b came from armenia going throught steppe and balkans, if we already have a lot of datas even from paelolithic from all those county... I mean the denial in eupedia, grow so much over the years...

halfalp
04-09-17, 14:42
Oh yeah I'm sorry, Villabruna that reich think replaced genetically previous paleolithic HG was just a lonely wanderer of R1b, like those from balkans, just random guys hu... But the theory that R1b came from anatolia in balkans in last glacial maximum, can be coherent with datas.

Eochaidh
04-09-17, 16:08
The Book of Invasions (Lebor Gabála Érenn) is part of what modern scholars call the Synchronized History of Ireland. The early Christian monks in Ireland were sponsored by, and generally part of the dominant families of Ireland and they sought to synchronize the various regional stories that were told by the Poets (Fili) into a unified story that would serve two purposes.

One purpose was to turn these often-contemporaneous stories into a linear narrative that could be synchronized with the stories of the Roman, Greek and Hebrew world, about which they had recently become aware. (They used the Hebrew calendar for their dating.) They cut, moved and generally used or ignored whatever they needed to achieve their purpose which was not to record pure history, but rather to join the story of their people to the greater world.

The other purpose was to make their own group the dominant one in Ireland so that they could claim as much power as possible in their time. The monks had an agenda and it was not history. Saint Columba was a prince of the Northern Uí Néill and this was not unusual.

The stories that have come down to us were developed by the two branches of the O’Neill dynasties, the Northern Uí Néill and Southern Uí Néill who ruled most of the north and center of Ireland from around 450 AD. They monopolized the High Kingship of Ireland for 500 years to around 1000 AD. They originally called themselves the Féini as seen in this Eighth Century legal tract.
"There were three principal kinships in Ireland: the Féini, the Ulaidh (Ulster), and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin (Leinster)."

Féini was later used to refer to all free peoples, so the Synchronists invented an ancestor called Gaedheal Glas from whom the Uí Néill were said to descend and they became the Gael. Since they wished to rule all of Ireland, their Synchronist monks grafted all free tribes onto their new genealogy and everyone became a Gael to the Uí Néill, even peoples like the Dál Fiatach and Dál Riada who were considered to be Érainn and part of the Ulaidh (Ulster).

For the past 50 or more years, one of the main objects of the study of Irish History is to undo the work of the Synchronists. There well-known scholars were among that group and the first two books have been available since the 1970s

Ireland Before the Normans by Donncha O'Corrain (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Donncha+O%27Corrain&search-alias=books&field-author=Donncha+O%27Corrain&sort=relevancerank).
Ireland Before the Vikings by Gearoid MacNiocaill (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Gearoid+MacNiocaill&search-alias=books&field-author=Gearoid+MacNiocaill&sort=relevancerank).
Early Medieval Ireland, 400-1200 by Daibhi O Croinin (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Daibhi+O+Croinin&search-alias=books&field-author=Daibhi+O+Croinin&sort=relevancerank)

Ed the Red
06-09-17, 04:21
Well since we know that genetically the northern Irish and Scottish are related and use Gaelic as their native tongue, how could their histories be wrong when they both denote scythian origins and their histories were composed 300 years apart.

Ed the Red
06-09-17, 17:37
The Irish Book of Invasions was compiled in the 1600's where as the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath was compiled after they defeated the English for independence in the 1300's. Scottish and Irish are some of the last remaining celtic cultures on the planet, so how can you refute their histories. All in all this is a site about DNA and DNA doesn't lie so since the the Scots/Irish have alot of R1b haven't you looked at the info on this site? R1b swept through Europe with Nomadic Indo European horsemen who would've been scythian and Cimmerian and mixing with earlier Europeans that were there when they swept through.

Parafarne
16-09-17, 16:26
Having in mind Ma'lta boy, I think R1b folks first appeared in North Eurasia then migrated through Pontic steppe to Balkans then to Turkey then one group (V88) went to Levant+Africa, other group settled Caucasus region(Yamna culture) from there they resettled Europe through Ukraine from which one group (Z2103) yet again resettled Neareast the other went to Western Europe (L11). They seem to circumnavigate the black sea!

Parafarne
16-09-17, 16:43
Both the Irish/Scottish gaels, know they were in Spain before they continued to Ireland. They were the last influx of Celtic invaders that I conclude were Cimmerian's originally

Look the Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians were later occupiers of North caucasus so Celts haven't descended from them, but intriguingly Celtic sagas seem to have got the geography correct if not the specific people because R1b folks did came from Yamna culture which is surprisingly in very same region as Cimmerians were! very true myths for Irish folks.

Ed the Red
18-10-17, 04:15
The BBC did actually have series called Celts years ago. They denote the Celts beginnings as Cimmerian's. The dates coincide very well, it was soon after the Cimmerian's disappeared from history in around 1000 B.C. just in time for them to reappear in Europe soon after.

Ed the Red
18-10-17, 04:16
Too many familiarities for it to be just a coincidence.