I've always read that Italic and Villanovian tribes were related to Unetice and Urnfield cultures in Central Europe. There are even similarities between Lusatian and Villanovian weapons. It would be more coherent to expect the highest diveristy of P312 subclades around Unetice area. South east France was at the time a culturally dominated area. Nothing spread from there since the Bell Beaker times.
EDIT:
That is exactly my point. U152 first arose during a Bell Beaker migrations, then later Celtic migrations brought it elsewhere.
All the migrations that took place during the bronze and Iron age were from North to South and from East to west, not the other way round.
So when could have U152 moved from south to North if not during the Bell Beaker era?
I've always read that Italic and Villanovian tribes were related to Unetice and Urnfield cultures in Central Europe. There are even similarities between Lusatian and Villanovian weapons. It would be more coherent to expect the highest diveristy of P312 subclades around Unetice area. South east France was at the time a culturally dominated area. Nothing spread from there since the Bell Beaker times.
EDIT:
That is exactly my point. U152 first arose during a Bell Beaker migrations, then later Celtic migrations brought it elsewhere.
All the migrations that took place during the bronze and Iron age were from North to South and from East to west, not the other way round.
So when could have U152 moved from south to North if not during the Bell Beaker era?
I've always read that Italic and Villanovian tribes were related to Unetice and Urnfield cultures in Central Europe. There are even similarities between Lusatian and Villanovian weapons. It would be more coherent to expect the highest diveristy of P312 subclades around Unetice area. South east France was at the time a culturally dominated area. Nothing spread from there since the Bell Beaker times.
EDIT:
That is exactly my point. U152 first arose during a Bell Beaker migrations, then later Celtic migrations brought it elsewhere.
All the migrations that took place during the bronze and Iron age were from North to South and from East to west, not the other way round.
So when could have U152 moved from south to North if not during the Bell Beaker era?
I agree for somethings not fo the whole - and B-B was not a massive emigration but a firstable scattered colonization, for I think
I know I'm going to push people to shriek but i believe things didn't occur like that
my hypothesis (I'm blockheaded sometimes)
1- Bell Beakers people was intrusive people in Occident - Its sources for genetics and culture was for me in East-Central Europe - It could have been I-E speaker (almost sure, an west-central undifferenciated forme?) and maybe the firts ones to put a foot in Western Europe, they did it by sea, in Eastern Spain in Calcholithic time -
2- they was an elite (technically upon all) and acculturate progressively a lot o peoples in Europe - their contacts with Corded culture and people could explain the Rhine variety of Beakers and its spread in Brittain and Scandinavia -
3- the further developments based on Beaker culture were the fact of acculturate populations whose genetic heritages was different from the first basic Bell Beaker one - so we arn't obliged to search a global original Bell Beaker logic to explain the peculiarities of Y-DNA evolutions in Western Europe - I maintain that the population making of Western Europe took place AND before AND after the Bell Beaker impact - when? I've no cristal globe, but the demic impact of ORIGINAL Bell Beakers (dinaric phenotypes) would have been lighter and lighter even if we find today (light) remnants of them in very far an different places (Gadiz S-Andalusia, N-W Spain, Western Basques, South Auvergne North-East Languedoc, N-W Ireland, E-N-E Scotland, W. Norway, Frisland etc...) without speake about places were they are more present (Central Europe, places of Switzerland, Bavaria, E- France …) that confirm they was an elite - I record this type was absent from W-Europe before the 3000' B-C -
So we've yet to find an origin place for Y-R1b in W-Europe before the Calcholithic for the Beakers people found already populated countries there ... I had always thought Y-R1b should have developped in France more than in Iberia, and not after the Western Neolithic (I hear some shoutings ?) - the very clear differenciation between R-U106, and the downstreams of R-P312 (R-L21, R-Z176, R-U152) and the STR variance (it has some worth sometimes) show different places of spreading and not a centralized place of birth or arrival - then I hold Y-R1b in Western Europe is older than a migration during the Bronze Age - it would be very strange that different human groups with different places of demographic 'boom' could have all of them gone along the Danube River and take only after that different ways in spite of a common life in East-Central Europe - So it's clear enough: the diverse downstreams of W Europe evolved on an SNP that was Y-R-L11 born there by R-L51 (a scarce population beforehand) -
4- are we sure of the birthdate for I-E language?
5- even taking in account the received dates we can imagine progressive I-Europeanization of Western Europe by the Beakers people (commercial net, very active and on long distances) - all the most occidental (celtic and latin) present I-E languages show more distant syntaxic tendencies than the eastern ones (grec, slavic, baltic ...) from the I-E model, -
6- going back to Urnfields and Unetice: for human stocks, the Old Unetice had heavier impact of Corded people (and their phenotypes) than the Tumuli's of Baviera and E-France - Urnfields grew up on a net of different cultures that shared some far ancestral relations but was not all the same (Corded / Unetice / Tumuli and other backgrounds) - Even if an East-Central starting is plausible, the first center of gravity of U-Fs on the skirts of the Y-R1b(U152) core could have attracted these R1b without being their center of birth – and it was after that some of the new mixed U-Fs went to S-W Poland and Lusace bringing there among others their R1b-U152 – I think also it could have been in Lusace an Italic faction more than a Celtic one because I believe R-U152 was already present among Ligurians, previous genuine Italic people and S-E Celts... I see no contradiction between that and the fact the maximum of variance (and birthplace) pf U152 could be in France because in my thought R1b origin has few links with Unetice and Cie – for R-L21 it's the same : older in place too than B-B (its upstream SNP always) !
