PDA

View Full Version : The Battle of Hastings and Haplogroup Rb1-S21 and Rb1-S28



lavande
04-01-12, 02:02
Hello everyone!

First of all, I am brand new to the forum, and I excuse myself in advance for the loads of questions I have regarding my fathers Y-DNA results.

:thinking:

I've been exploring my geneaology for quite a while now, and although I have my mtDNA very clear, I'm still in a rut with my fathers results. I wish I had a more concreate answer on what exact region this Rb1-S21 group and so on comes from. I think I may be drowing myself in a glass of water.

My father has always expressed being "100%" English, and that is what I always went by. However, on my own, going through the Royal family tree, led me to find out that my paternal lineage (surname: Royal) was only in England since 1066 with the Battle of Hastings. They also managed, to keep their surname in tact without spelling variation since their days in Normandy.

Now, with that said, I also managed to go more in depth with my findings, and realized that the Royal's only dated back in Normandy up to 800AD. In the Dark Ages, they worked as body guards and servants to the French Monarchy. There are also NO records of them living any where else in France other than Normandy. At that point, I was quite excited. Having learned French within a year and been so enthusiastic about the language I felt my need to learn French was genetic feed.. :laughing:

Moreover, the Y-DNA results included the Haplogroup Rb1-S21 (over 58%) as well as Rb1-S29 (which I read are the same?). In addition, there was a 6% inclusion of Rb1-S28. I'm reading that it is possibly Frisian. However, this leads to my primary question for those who are fluent in the subject: What were the groups that fought along with the Normans in the battle of hastings?

I've read that the Duke of Normandy also brought along with him many Frenchmen that were willing to fight the battle. With that said, could the Royal's be Frankish? Are they Vikings? What are they?!?!

From what I've read, the Normans were of aristocracy, and I know the Royal's, were not aristrocrats rather just a line of skilled military men. I've read that they are included in the Domesday Book, however, I cannot verify that for certain. I've just come to the conclusion that they had some acres in England, but were of no true status.

As you can see, I am still confused. Any thoughts or comments? Help!!! :confused2:

zanipolo
04-01-12, 02:32
Hello everyone!

First of all, I am brand new to the forum, and I excuse myself in advance for the loads of questions I have regarding my fathers Y-DNA results.

:thinking:

I've been exploring my geneaology for quite a while now, and although I have my mtDNA very clear, I'm still in a rut with my fathers results. I wish I had a more concreate answer on what exact region this Rb1-S21 group and so on comes from. I think I may be drowing myself in a glass of water.

My father has always expressed being "100%" English, and that is what I always went by. However, on my own, going through the Royal family tree, led me to find out that my paternal lineage (surname: Royal) was only in England since 1066 with the Battle of Hastings. They also managed, to keep their surname in tact without spelling variation since their days in Normandy.

Now, with that said, I also managed to go more in depth with my findings, and realized that the Royal's only dated back in Normandy up to 800AD. In the Dark Ages, they worked as body guards and servants to the French Monarchy. There are also NO records of them living any where else in France other than Normandy. At that point, I was quite excited. Having learned French within a year and been so enthusiastic about the language I felt my need to learn French was genetic feed.. :laughing:

Moreover, the Y-DNA results included the Haplogroup Rb1-S21 (over 58%) as well as Rb1-S29 (which I read are the same?). In addition, there was a 6% inclusion of Rb1-S28. I'm reading that it is possibly Frisian. However, this leads to my primary question for those who are fluent in the subject: What were the groups that fought along with the Normans in the battle of hastings?

I've read that the Duke of Normandy also brought along with him many Frenchmen that were willing to fight the battle. With that said, could the Royal's be Frankish? Are they Vikings? What are they?!?!

From what I've read, the Normans were of aristocracy, and I know the Royal's, were not aristrocrats rather just a line of skilled military men. I've read that they are included in the Domesday Book, however, I cannot verify that for certain. I've just come to the conclusion that they had some acres in England, but were of no true status.

As you can see, I am still confused. Any thoughts or comments? Help!!! :confused2:

For what its worth, my history on the normans are they originated as norwegian vikings, some say danish vikings. They took normandy and adapted the french language and customs.
you might need to seek your name Royal from norman assimilated peoples names, like, french, italian, spanish, german, frisien etc etc They did conquer sicily before returning to take england

like real in spanish, reale in italian etc etc

sparkey
04-01-12, 02:38
R1b-S21/U106, which it sounds like you're getting predicted as being using STRs (you might want an SNP test to be sure), is a common haplogroup that spans multiple ethnicities. In the context of the British Isles, it is most common in the more Anglo-Saxon areas, although that doesn't mean that if you have R1b-S21, you're automatically Anglo-Saxon. See Maciamo's map "Distribution of haplogroup R1b-S21 (U106) in Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b)." Certainly, Normans had some R1b-S21 as well, and "Royal" sounds quite Norman, so if you haven't had an NPE, it may be a Norman introduction, but I wouldn't be sure. Basically, it's likely to remain an unresolved problem for you... we can't tell you much just by knowing your surname and your predicted subclade.

The Ancestry.com England & Wales map (http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=royal) makes your surname look quite East Anglian.

zanipolo
04-01-12, 03:50
R1b-S21/U106, which it sounds like you're getting predicted as being using STRs (you might want an SNP test to be sure), is a common haplogroup that spans multiple ethnicities. In the context of the British Isles, it is most common in the more Anglo-Saxon areas, although that doesn't mean that if you have R1b-S21, you're automatically Anglo-Saxon. See Maciamo's map "Distribution of haplogroup R1b-S21 (U106) in Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b)." Certainly, Normans had some R1b-S21 as well, and "Royal" sounds quite Norman, so if you haven't had an NPE, it may be a Norman introduction, but I wouldn't be sure. Basically, it's likely to remain an unresolved problem for you... we can't tell you much just by knowing your surname and your predicted subclade.

The Ancestry.com England & Wales map (http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=royal) makes your surname look quite East Anglian.

so is my marker similar to his or

what is the new term form my marker? I can never keep up.

I agree the marker is not entirely anglo-saxon, I believe it is a North sea land continental marker.

sparkey
04-01-12, 08:48
so is my marker similar to his or

what is the new term form my marker? I can never keep up.

Yeah, you probably share a patrilineal ancestor within the past 3700 years or so, provided his predicted subclade is correct.

lavande
07-01-12, 01:21
Thank you both for your informative responses! :)


you might need to seek your name Royal from norman assimilated peoples names, like, french, italian, spanish, german, frisien etc etc They did conquer sicily before returning to take england


Yes, I have looked for that. However, "Reale" from Spain and Italy don't share the same markers as I've seen they are placed into other Haplogroups (including J2)

I will look more into Royal's in France and in Canada, because I've found out the surname is more common in these regions than in the US.

My Father's Royal markers are:

13, 23, 14, 11, 11, 14, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 29, 17, 9, 10, 11, 11, 25, 15, 19, 31, 15, 15, 17, 18, 11, 11, 19, 23, 17, 14, 19, 18, 38, 39, 13, 12.

If it may interest or be useful.

In the STR predictory, I get a combination of S21 and S28.


R1b-S21/U106, which it sounds like you're getting predicted as being using STRs (you might want an SNP test to be sure), is a common haplogroup that spans multiple ethnicities.

Yes, I was using STR to predict the markers. In order to get the SNP, I suppose my Father (I am a female) would have to be tested (again) to get the Y-DNA with SNP results. I will consider that.

I was aware of the high frequencies of the Royal surname in the East Anglian region. I know the surname is popular in Norfolk and Kent, but from what I understood the Royal's settled from Normandy into some land outside of London and just spread out further with time I assume. I'm American, so I've had a much needed crash course in European history. I must confess, I had never heard of Normans nor Frisians until a couple weeks back...

I'll look more in depth for Norman Y-DNA projects. I browsed through one some time back. Although the last name does sound Norman, I don't want to say it is without digging deeper into the matter. Until than, the Royal's will forever remain an enigma!! :D

sparkey
07-01-12, 02:14
Yes, I was using STR to predict the markers. In order to get the SNP, I suppose my Father (I am a female) would have to be tested (again) to get the Y-DNA with SNP results. I will consider that.

Where did he test? If FTDNA, it's as easy as ordering the SNP test individually, he won't even need to re-sample. If something like Ancestry.com... you may need to switch companies.


I was aware of the high frequencies of the Royal surname in the East Anglian region. I know the surname is popular in Norfolk and Kent, but from what I understood the Royal's settled from Normandy into some land outside of London and just spread out further with time I assume. I'm American, so I've had a much needed crash course in European history. I must confess, I had never heard of Normans nor Frisians until a couple weeks back...

I'll look more in depth for Norman Y-DNA projects. I browsed through one some time back. Although the last name does sound Norman, I don't want to say it is without digging deeper into the matter. Until than, the Royal's will forever remain an enigma!! :D

At least you can be sure that they were English since at least the Medieval Period. That's more than I knew about my surname before I started out. I've since refined my knowledge of my surname and patriline quite thoroughly... although, unlike you, I lucked into a rare and geographically limited haplogroup and STR cluster. It's easy to distinguish different I2c's, and you don't even generally need more than a 25 marker test. But it can be difficult to tell different R1b-U106's apart based on STRs, even up to 67 markers. Maybe if you start getting some interesting exact STR matches with people living in Normandy now, you'll be onto something. But until then, I doubt you could eliminate the possibility of being a patrilineal descendant of an Anglo-Saxon whose descendants took a Norman name at some point.

lavande
08-01-12, 23:25
Where did he test? If FTDNA, it's as easy as ordering the SNP test individually, he won't even need to re-sample. If something like Ancestry.com... you may need to switch companies.


Family Tree, and would R1b1b1 (R1b12a) R-M269 be the SNP? Because that is what I see he got. We don't live in the same state, so I had to ask him again.

What would R-M269 signify aside from being Western European? I still feel like I don't have an answer. Is it Celtic?

Hahaha, I'm lost obviously.. :useless:

:laughing:

zanipolo
09-01-12, 04:01
Family Tree, and would R1b1b1 (R1b12a) R-M269 be the SNP? Because that is what I see he got. We don't live in the same state, so I had to ask him again.

What would R-M269 signify aside from being Western European? I still feel like I don't have an answer. Is it Celtic?

Hahaha, I'm lost obviously.. :useless:

:laughing:

R1b1b2 (R-M269)

R1b1b2 is defined by the presence of SNP marker M269. European R1b is dominated by R-M269. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Eurasia),[23] (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Underhill2000-22) and with relatively high frequency among Bashkirs (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Bashkirs) of the Perm (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Perm) Region (84.0%).[2] (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-ftp.anrb.ru-1) Out of 523 men tested across Turkey 76 tested positive for M269.[3] (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Cinnio04-2)






Long-hand:
R1b1b2 (formerly R1b1c, R1b3)


Defining SNP:
M269


Parent Clade:
R-P297


Subclades:
R-P311











Wales has 92.3% of the 65 people tested
and Basques 87.1% of its 100plus people tested

I do not see R1b1b1 with M269 only
R1b1b2 with it

but you have R1b1a2 M269 - which is irish IIRC

sparkey
09-01-12, 18:19
Family Tree, and would R1b1b1 (R1b12a) R-M269 be the SNP? Because that is what I see he got. We don't live in the same state, so I had to ask him again.

What would R-M269 signify aside from being Western European? I still feel like I don't have an answer. Is it Celtic?

Hahaha, I'm lost obviously.. :useless:

:laughing:

M269 is an SNP that developed relatively early on the R1b tree, so just about all of European R1b has it. M269 positive individuals later developed other mutations... a branch on the M269 tree is S21, another is P312, etc.

So saying that you're "R1b-M269" isn't very high resolution, it basically just says that your Y-line could be European (Celtic, or Germanic, or Basque, or Greek...), or Assyrian, or something. Quite a lot of people have it.

See the phylogenetic tree on Maciamo's R1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml) to understand it. See how "M269" appears toward the beginning of the tree, and the later SNP you think you might have ("S21/U106") occurs after several more.

gvanstijn
05-05-13, 21:33
Hello Rb1-S21ers, I am also brand new, living in Holland. Holland is as you can see on the map blessed with Rb1=S21ers. Interesting to make is that the Frisians are not the Frisians of the Roman time. It is not clear to which group of Germans these early Frisians belong. During a long period of time, probably between 250 and 600 ad the West en North of the Nederlands was not inhabited. The present Dutch people are probably not related to the early Frisians. The later Frisiand, say after 550 ad were members of the ingvaeones, which are Saxons, Old English people, Jutes and the New Frisians, Which were also moving since 400 ad to Brittish Isles. Has anybody more to ad to this information?