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Maciamo
14-01-12, 14:40
Napoleon's Y-DNA has finally been tested (http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/jmbr/article/view/10609). He belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1c1* (E-M34), the main subclade of E-M123. They tested DNA from his beard hairs as well as DNA from one of his modern descendant, Charles Napoléon. Both belonged to the same haplogroup.

E-M123 and E-M34 have a distribution which strongly suggest a Neolithic dispersal. They peak in the southern Levant (Israel and Palestine), then seem to have spread through southern and western Anatolia, jumped to Italy, with major settlements particularly in Sicily and Sardinia, then carried on to Tunisia, Algeria and southern France. There are also minor frequencies in northern Spain and northern Germany. Overall the distribution is reminiscent of G2a(xG2a3), J1(xJ1c3) and T.

Carlos
14-01-12, 16:56
Should come again, because my family has always been the legend oral tradition that came from a deserter from Napoleon's troops when he tried unsuccessfully to invade Spain.

Carlos
15-01-12, 00:06
Have you discovered the haplogroup of Napoleon and nobody says anything?

This is outrageous!, What has happened to you? I imagine ...

Sennevini
15-01-12, 12:53
There are some reactions in another thread, which questions Napoleon's haplogroup, so that could explain absence of it in this one; I agree the discovery deserves its own thread: it is a very interesting result :)

Carlos
28-02-12, 23:15
France held a Napoleon 'white'
An investigation of their DNA says its origin is Caucasian

A big sigh of relief seemed to rise on Monday on France, issued by a very particular sector of the population that wants to link the history of the great figures of the country with clear targets and European origins. The conservative daily Le Figaro returned to great fanfare the results of genetic research on the remains of Napoleon, which would suggest that Caucasian origins, thus ruling out the clues that indicate that some Arabic was the emperor.

The research carried out by a team led by geneticist Gerard Lucotte searched several hairs from the beard of the emperor, the remains that had been previously authenticated by a detail of historical significance. The imperial produce fibers containing grains of pollen a plant endemic and several molecules of rare minerals, all reachable only in Santa Elena. This island in the Atlantic was the place where Napoleon died in 1821, after six years of captivity in the hands of the British Crown.

Previous studies pointed that the emperor had Arab ancestors

Lucotte, Institute for Molecular Genetics in Paris, and Thierry Thomasset, RX Laboratory and Peter Hrechdakian of Unifert Group, proceeded to determine, through analysis of degraded DNA, the Y-chromosome haplogroup of the emperor. Some geneticists believe that this source can know what a person has, from the father.

After analyzing the chromosome, and to compare it with genetic material from descendants of Napoleon, Lucotte reaches a conclusion: the male line of Napoleon bore the imprint of haplogroup E1b1b1c1. We know that genetics, for now, on this haplogroup is formed about 7,000 years ago in the eastern Mediterranean coast between Egypt and the current modern Turkey. Today, accurate science is at its highest proportion of people living in Israel, Palestine and Lebanon.

The truth is that if the paternity of E1b1b1c1 back further, that is, until about 24,000 years, several studies have indicated its origin in eastern Africa, where nobody knows if at that time the citizens would have occurred defined as Arab, black, or Caucasian Berbers.

The scientists analyzed genetic material from his beard

In any case, the pleasure of Le Figaro with the discovery of Napoleon's hair was immense, both as to say: "Napoleon was not Arabic, but caucasian" and added that this shows to be untrue "historical indications were thinking experts Napoleon's Arab ancestors had arrived in Europe during the expansion of Islam, or through merchandise trade with Italy. " In any case, science does not give the results as valid until you commit a second laboratory.

The legend of a Napoleon of Arab or Berber origin is persistent. Through the mother, the Corsican had its origins in an Italian area frequently invaded, occupied and inhabited by Saracens, and a maternal ancestor was known as Il Moro di Sarzana, a mercenary who worked for the Genoese Republic in Corsica around 1480. The numerous pro-Islamic writings of Napoleon even though it was a historical reputation as a defender of the Jews credited, in the eyes of the supporters of this type of argument, the idea that some Arab and Berber was the emperor.

http://m.publico.es/417160

albanopolis
28-02-13, 03:05
Greeks and Albanians have laid claim that originaly Napoleon was from Morea (today's Poloponesis). Albanians were settled there before Turkish occupation in 1500 ad, and after that they moved to Southern Italy, where they still are present today. That's when Napoleons forefathers began their movement in Corsica's derection. I don't have a hard evidence to support this, but what I know for sure is that Napoleon's haplogroup is present around 1.5% in the area of Albania, Bulgaria and probably Greece. Phenotypically he looks like one of my albanian roomates. So he does not have to be Palestinian. Some french have claimed Albanian or Greek origin of Napoleon.

MOESAN
01-03-13, 22:24
it's very funny, all that focalization about the "origins" of the "great man" (a megalomane and a traitor for me, even if intelligent) - these Franchies trying to save the honour of a "Corsican" (island bought from Italy a few years before his birth), Corsican of fresh "italian" origin - all the way, the definition of his HG doesn't provide us any precise geographical origin - and Napoleon Buonaparte's ancestors, whatever the origin of the first male lineage bearer, were surely a good medley of diverse southern Europeans, maybe Italians for the most... caucasian type he had, sure! a far possible Arab ancestor could not change that, and I recall you that a true 'arabic phenotype' is a pure caucasian one (look at Yemenites ancient types, an more at Yemen Jews autosomals...)
I confess I'm a bit jealous, nobody is trying to infer my far origins, can you understand that?

Maciamo
14-10-13, 21:11
Lucotte et al. (http://www.ijsciences.com/pub/pdf/V220130935.pdf) have refined the test of Napoleon Bonaparte's Y-chromosomal DNA by testing two of his descendants (Alexander Colonna Walewski and Prince Charles Napoléon). The Bonaparte haplogroup is now M123+ > M34+ > L791, L792+.

They have also reconstructed Napoleon I’s Y-haplotype using 109 STR markers. This now makes it possible for anybody to determine whether or not their are descendants or close patrilineal cousins of Napoleon I.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Napoleon-Y-STR.png

In FTDNA format, the first 11 STR markers would have the following haplotype: 14-24-13-10-16-16-11-12-12-14-11. Some important values include DYS447=21 and DYS449=28, a relatively rare combination among E-M34+ members. Someone has already added the partial haplotype on Ysearch (SN5G8).

I checked the E1b1b Project at FTDNA and Ysearch but didn't find any perfect match, although one Shirokoff from Russia (near Moscow) is pretty close.

WST
12-03-14, 15:56
Bruno Roy-Henry recently opened a Petition to the French President on Avaaz:

It's about a skin fragment of Napoleon I. and their Y-DNA. Issued in a museum in France. So far it has been denied, but the funds are there. It should answer the question, that the one who was exhumed in 1840 in St. Helena is really Napoleon I.

Here the Petition and please subscribe:
avaaz.org/fr/petition/Le_President_de_la_Republique_Francaise_Lanalyse_A DN_du_derme_conserve_au_musee_de_lArmee_et_attribu e_a_Napoleon/?tWDXfdb

Can someone please put the link correctly with http? I can not due to insufficient contributions.

kingjohn
07-08-20, 09:49
He belonged to this branch

https://austinpublishinggroup.com/genetics-genomic-research/fulltext/ajggr-v2-id1015.php

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH3893/

Angela
08-08-20, 17:02
This confirms information I previously provided that the source of the Buonaparte family is in Sarzana, Liguria on the border of Toscana, and in more ancient times under the control of the Bishops of Luni. In fact, when the Roman city of Luni was finally abandoned the Bishop led his people inland to the area around Sarzana. One of the family holdings was directly across the Magra from where I was born and spent my childhood. I could see it from underneath the grape arbor. :)Interesting that it has a date around 700 BC. Looks to me like Levant to Anatolia/Armenia, Greece, maybe Southern Italy given how much Greek settlement there was in Calabria, and then perhaps to Luni, settled by soldiers from he center and south. Just speculation, but maybe not too far off. The whole family look like coastal Ligurians to me. Can’t imagine people with their pretensions to nobility would have ad mixed much with the herders of the interior.

TaktikatEMalet
08-08-20, 22:21
Greeks and Albanians have laid claim that originaly Napoleon was from Morea (today's Poloponesis). Albanians were settled there before Turkish occupation in 1500 ad, and after that they moved to Southern Italy, where they still are present today. That's when Napoleons forefathers began their movement in Corsica's derection. I don't have a hard evidence to support this, but what I know for sure is that Napoleon's haplogroup is present around 1.5% in the area of Albania, Bulgaria and probably Greece. Phenotypically he looks like one of my albanian roomates. So he does not have to be Palestinian. Some french have claimed Albanian or Greek origin of Napoleon.

Wtf, this haplogroup has absolutely nothing to do with Albanians. It is less than 1% in Shqiptaret

I would guess it is Jewish, they were spread throughout certain parts of Europe by this point, could also be from Muslim invaders of South Italy

Angela
08-08-20, 22:46
Here we go with the y line thing. The paper seems to think otherwise. Did you bother reading it?

Anyway, who cares?

In terms of genetic identity he was Italian. Period. It’s written all over him, his parents and his siblings. It’s his family origins and eve Corsicans as a whole are just a subgroup of Italians, very close to Italians.

Amazing how so many people want to claim someone who was basically an enlightened despot in the mode of Catherine the Great. His mania for conquest led to a lot of death even if he did good things as well.

TaktikatEMalet
08-08-20, 23:09
Here we go with the y line thing. The paper seems to think otherwise. Did you bother reading it?
Anyway, who cares?
In terms of genetic identity he was Italian. Period. It’s written all over him, his parents and his siblings. It’s his family origins and eve Corsicans as a whole are just a subgroup of Italians, very close to Italians.
Amazing how so many people want to claim someone who was basically an enlightened despot in the mode of Catherine the Great. His mania for conquest led to a lot of death even if he did good things as well.

Yes we know he was Italian and then French culturally but here are we not discussing his y dna? His ancestors tribal origin?

Also, do you know where I can find more information about phoenician y dna?

Dimanto Ruben
09-08-20, 00:00
Yes we know he was Italian and then French culturally but here are we not discussing his y dna? His ancestors tribal origin?
Also, do you know where I can find more information about phoenician y dna?

If he grew up in Corsica, he was Corsican in culture as Italy was not yet a unified country.

Angela
09-08-20, 00:12
Yes we know he was Italian and then French culturally but here are we not discussing his y dna? His ancestors tribal origin?
Also, do you know where I can find more information about phoenician y dna?

Please spare me this “tribal origin” stuff. One’s “tribal origin” is not just the group responsible for one among many y lines, not to mention all the mtdna lines.

You think the Ssa blacks of Cameroon have any meaningful connection to European Mesolithic RIb-v88 people?

Angela
09-08-20, 00:42
If he grew up in Corsica, he was Corsican in culture as Italy was not yet a unified country.

All Italians knew they were ultimately Italian even if the country wasn’t technically unified. Just as all the most educated among them knew Italian.

Germany wasn’t unified until around the same time. You think the Saxons and the Bavarians and the Hanoverians didn’t realize they were ultimately all German?

You need to get some detailed biographies of all the “ Bonapartes” too, and some books on Corsican history. They spoke “Italian” a lot better than they spoke French, most of them. Don’t you know how long Corsica had been part of Liguria?

The Emperor himself spoke very bad, highly accented French.

Napoleon was an opportunist. His family supported the rebels for a time but he knew where he had the best chance, and he took it by going to a French military college and supporting the Republicans before betraying them and taking power for himself.

Didn’t stop him from being extremely proud of and flaunting his noble Tuscan ancestors. Look it up.

Genetically, a lot of the Corsicans, especially those from the coast, are pretty indistinguishable from Tuscans.







You people are going to have to get a new songbook to sing from...

The facts are destroying your positions at every turn.

TaktikatEMalet
09-08-20, 00:43
Please spare me this “tribal origin” stuff. One’s “tribal origin” is not just the group responsible for one among many y lines, not to mention all the mtdna lines.
You think the Ssa blacks of Cameroon have any meaningful connection to European Mesolithic RIb-v88 people?

Maybe that is where r1b initially originated and then moved to sardinia, could also be that "europeans" settled there and therefore mixed with Cameroon folk. Its not that crazy, South Africa has a lot of Europeans today. Some people like to move and live in different places, it's normal

Anyway going that far back doesn't help determine tribes because not many relevant tribes existed. I am talking about groups/tribes we know of that had some impact on history

Salento
09-08-20, 07:06
I made this page about Napoleon (and others) when the Internet was young, ... an i-Net+ thing :)

The contents came from different sources, though my priority wasn't the content, it summarizes a lot of informations.

https://i.imgur.com/k0QbI1t.jpg

kingjohn
09-08-20, 13:26
They were noble even before they
Moved to sarzana :smile:
A branch of the Cadolingi di Borgonuovo family, Lords of Fucecchio
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucecchio
in Tuscany from the 10th century onwards, which had acquired the name of Buonaparte, had settled near Sarzana before 1264.[4]
:cool-v:
In 1512 a member of the family (Francesco Buonaparte, who died in 1540) permanently took up residence in Ajaccio,[4] becoming the founder of the Corsican line of Buonapartes and hence a direct forebear of Sebastiano Nicola Buonaparte. He in turn was the great-grandfather of the emperor Napoleon I (who was born in Corsica in 1769).

P.s
and i agree with angela that autosmally
Speaking he was tuscan italian :good_job:
And most important thing is the final mutation
Thats why we have yfull:smile:
even if i am wrong and he was corsican autosomally they cluster very close to tuscan

Angela
09-08-20, 14:47
That’s if you believe that was a legitimate genealogy and not some paid for paper trail by a parvenus son of the minor gentry (his father was a lawyer) who was going to marry into the Habsburgs and needed more ancient beginnings. A good number of historians don’t believe it.

Doesn’t matter genetically. My own results and all the analyses I’ve seen of more northern Tuscans and far eastern Ligurians shows there’s virtually no difference. That they were in Sarzana and the valley of the Magra is irrefutable. There are records in almost every town.

You keep on forgetting the mothers, John. :) His mother was of Ligurian stock, further west.

kingjohn
09-08-20, 15:00
do corsicans cluster genetically close to tuscans ?

his death mask :cool-v:
https://vintagenewsdaily.com/death-mask-of-napoleon-bonaparte/

Angela
09-08-20, 15:37
Well if you go by Eurogenes his Corsican sample clusters with me: Emilian, Northwest Tuscan and Eastern Ligurian. I’d bet serious money he’s coastal and thus more affected by Ligurians and Tuscans. Corsicans from the interior are probably slightly different.

What has to be remembered is that Napoleon’s family was of the Tuscan and Ligurian gentry jealous of their status. They weren’t going to admix much with local peasants, at least not in the legitimate line.

The closest “language” to Corsican is Tuscan. For what it’s worth, the proportion of RIb U-152 is high.

Yes, I’ve seen his death mask. The cancer ate away all the extra flesh and he looks more like he looked in his youth, typical of his ancestry. Look up the early paintings of him, before he put on so much weight. He was very good looking, IMO, and of course brilliant. He was an ego maniac, however, convinced of his greatness and his “destiny” since childhood.

Pax Augusta
09-08-20, 18:06
do corsicans cluster genetically close to tuscans ?

his death mask :cool-v:
https://vintagenewsdaily.com/death-mask-of-napoleon-bonaparte/


Corsican individuals can be modelled as they are, more or less, 85% Tuscan/Ligurian/Emilian + 15% Sardinian. I've seen over a dozen or so of Corsicans results that have been privately tested. In some tools they are closer to Italy than in others. So this model might change and the percentage of Sardinian may decrease.

A minority of the Corsican academic samples, that are also on Eurogenes, might have some French ancestor (a grandfather or great-grandfather, but not more than this).

In the south of Corsica are more frequent the Corsicans that may have recent Sardinian ancestors. If for centuries the island of Corsica has mainly maintained relations with Liguria and Tuscany, in recent years groups of migrants from all over Italy have arrived in Corsica, even from southern Italy. In addition clearly also those arrived from France, which in part are completely French and in another part are French of foreign origin (north Africans, mostly).


In this PCA you see that the Corsicans are west of the Tuscans (the dots in pink and light red) and of the Emilians and Ligurians (the dots in green).

https://i.imgur.com/s58YFip.jpg

Pax Augusta
09-08-20, 18:31
@kingjohn

This is a good example of Corsican accent and language from Corsica cismontana (Norhern Corsica) also called Corsica suprana (dialect is also named supranacciu).

From a syntactic point of view the Corsican language is considered related to the Tuscan language but for all the rest the Corsican language shows links also to the central-southern languages of Italy.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ4yFQ_C3f0

Progon
09-08-20, 19:53
Interesting that he belonged to the Natufian subclade. I wonder Hitler's subclade was it E-V13 or some other E-M35.

kingjohn
09-08-20, 20:03
Interesting that he belonged to the Natufian subclade. I wonder Hitler's subclade was it E-V13 or some other E-M35.


most of 9% e1b1b1 in austria is e-v13
so i bet on e-v13 for hittler ....

e-m34 is not natuffian
the natuffian is the upstream clade e-z830 :cool-v:
but e-m34 was found in neolithic ppnb site in jordan
so it looks very levantine ....:smile:
but you see that napoleon branch E-PH3893 aquired many mutations to end in his branch
(Z841, L791, Y4971, Y4976, Y4970 and PH3893) under M34
might be that many of the e-m34 in italy will end on his specific branch ...

p.s
if i am not wrong they did found e-m123 in tuscany 5-6% in arezzo so it is not completely
out of the blue in tuscany :smile:

Angela
09-08-20, 20:45
most of 9% e1b1b1 in austria is e-v13
so i bet on e-v13 for hittler ....

e-m34 is not natuffian
the natuffian is the upstream clade e-z830 :cool-v:
but e-m34 was found in neolithic ppnb site in jordan
so it looks very levantine ....:smile:
but you see that napoleon branch E-PH3893 aquired many mutations to end in his branch
(Z841, L791, Y4971, Y4976, Y4970 and PH3893) under M34
might be that many of the e-m34 in italy will end on his specific branch ...

p.s
if i am not wrong they did found e-m123 in tuscany 5-6% in arezzo so it is not completely
out of the blue in tuscany :smile:

Did I misunderstand the paper? I thought they followed the mutation trail up and through Anatolia/Armenia and west?

Pax Augusta
09-08-20, 21:22
if i am not wrong they did found e-m123 in tuscany 5-6% in arezzo so it is not completely
out of the blue in tuscany :smile:

The data comes from Julie Di Cristofaro's French study of the Corsicans? It's a study full of errors, pure amateurism. In any case there is no academic modern sample from Arezzo, there is one from the province of Arezzo that is from the Casentino, an isolated area in Tuscany on the border with Umbria and Marche that was included during the Augustan age in the Regio VI Umbria and that some agenda-driven Italian geneticist like Piazza used to speculate on the Etruscans. But, apart from the fact that E-M123 at low percentages has now been found everywhere in Italy and even in Sardinia and Veneto, E-M123 is thought to have a TMRCA about 18,000 years ago, it is too old to think it is due to movements only from the Iron Age, and Napoleon Bonaparte's male line is indeed native from Lunigiana, where living people on the La Spezia side with his clade still exist today, likely related to him. And Lunigiana has no relation to the Casentino, because geographically distant. The only relation concerns the legends according to which the Casentino was inhabited by Ligurian tribes in the past, like the Lunigiana. But archaeology has never found any evidence of this.

2013 Map
https://i.imgur.com/jfyI439.png

kingjohn
09-08-20, 21:40
The data comes from Julie Di Cristofaro's French study of the Corsicans? It's a study full of errors, pure amateurism. In any case there is no academic modern sample from Arezzo, there is one from the province of Arezzo that is from the Casentino, an isolated area in Tuscany on the border with Umbria and Marche that was included during the Augustan age in the Regio VI Umbria and that some agenda-driven Italian geneticist like Piazza used to speculate on the Etruscans. But, apart from the fact that E-M123 at low percentages has now been found everywhere in Italy and even in Sardinia and Veneto, E-M123 is thought to have a TMRCA about 18,000 years ago, it is too old to think it is due to movements only from the Iron Age, and Napoleon Bonaparte's male line is indeed native from Lunigiana, where living people on the La Spezia side with his clade still exist today, likely related to him. And Lunigiana has no relation to the Casentino, because geographically distant. The only relation concerns the legends according to which the Casentino was inhabited by Ligurian tribes in the past, like the Lunigiana. But archaeology has never found any evidence of this.

2013 Map
https://i.imgur.com/jfyI439.png

yes so it is a bad research :thinking:
thanks for clarify that it is from casentino and not 5-6% like the corsican paper said :good_job:
good that i said : "if i am not wrong" because i wasn't sure :smile:
i agree with you that e-m123 is damn old
so who knows how it ends in italy

Pax Augusta
09-08-20, 22:29
yes so it is a bad research :thinking:
thanks for clarify that it is from casentino and not 5-6% like the corsican paper said :good_job:
good that i said : "if i am not wrong" because i wasn't sure :smile:
i agree with you that e-m123 is damn old
so who knows how it ends in italy

We already discussed this paper on the Corsicans when it came out. After that discussion I reread it several times and found many other errors. A tremendous error on the R1bs from Pisa (which is actually the usual sample from Volterra that is in the province of Pisa), this study states that all are R1b-L23 when in fact most of these R1bs from Volterra are dowstream and go up to R1b-U152, as shown by more recent papers that analyzed the same sample. A very big mistake. I'm not telling you that in the sample of the Casentino E-M123 doesn't exist, I'm telling you that it can't be this study that tells you exactly how many there are. And anyway the main problem remains, E-M123 is indeed damn old, how can all E-M123 have arrived in the last 2500/3000 years when it was born 18,000 years ago?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36732-Prehistoric-migrations-shaped-Corsican-Y-chromosome

kingjohn
13-08-20, 14:12
https://i.imgur.com/LwppXnO.gif

Pax Augusta
14-08-20, 19:33
https://i.imgur.com/LwppXnO.gif

the last one is a descendant of Agostino Del Turco from Mosciano Sant'Angelo, province of Teramo, Abruzzo, so on the Adriatic coast.

https://i.imgur.com/T4nN2hQ.png

kingjohn
14-08-20, 20:59
the last one is a descendant of Agostino Del Turco from Mosciano Sant'Angelo, province of Teramo, Abruzzo, so on the Adriatic coast.

https://i.imgur.com/T4nN2hQ.png


very cool :cool-v:
Del -turco is in yfull with an albanian
( and i know e-m123 is rare 1-2% in albania)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y49685/
so he is very interesting case :thinking:

kingjohn
25-08-20, 14:36
The american bonaparte line😉
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Joseph_Bonaparte

Angela
25-08-20, 15:44
The american bonaparte line������
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Joseph_Bonaparte

The one quarter Corsican genes were already washed out. :)

Napoleon was furious when Jerome left for America to strike out on his own. He liked putting his siblings on European thrones for support.

If you can't trust your family....well, he couldn't.

kingjohn
25-08-20, 17:34
The one quarter Corsican genes were already washed out. :)
Napoleon was furious when Jerome left for America to strike out on his own. He liked putting his siblings on European thrones for support.
If you can't trust your family....well, he couldn't.
Yes got irish american genes instead :smile:
I am no expert in anthropology
But he looked alpine type :thinking:

Turksteelman
02-09-20, 11:43
I am Del Turco and those are my markers at E-Y49685. As I am not an expert in this field can you tell me anything about my genetics? I noticed it was referenced above. Thanks

kingjohn
02-09-20, 14:16
I am Del Turco and those are my markers at E-Y49685. As I am not an expert in this field can you tell me anything about my genetics? I noticed it was referenced above. Thanks

hello
you need to ask farroukh from e3b haplozone and anthrogenica
he is truly expert in e3b:thinking:
all i know is that e-L791 look like the european branch of e-m34 ( with russia, sardinia , france representatives ).....
while my branch e-m84 more in arabia ( with extension to south italy and iberia )
all i know is that your branch E-Y49685 is interesting
with this albanian maybe a balkan conection who knows ...:thinking:
there is a paper coming soon on roman dna from serbia
1 individual is e-m123
he might be e-L791 branch
like you ( we should wait) :smile:
that is all i know
regards
adam

Pax Augusta
02-09-20, 16:30
very cool :cool-v:
Del -turco is in yfull with an albanian
( and i know e-m123 is rare 1-2% in albania)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y49685/
so he is very interesting case :thinking:


Consider that in Italy surnames like Del Turco (and all its derivatives) that recall the ethnic name of the Turks have more possible explanations. For example in Italy with Turks were also called all the Balkan populations that had ended up under Turkish domination and sought refuge in Italy or who were not Christian. To make you understand better, in the Italian registers there are examples of people coming from Dalmatia (today a region of Croatia) who were called "Turks".

But at the same time in some of these Italian surnames which today refer to the ethnic name of the Turks may derive from nicknames, "behaving like a Turk", "having fought against the Turks" and so on.

Turksteelman
03-09-20, 13:14
Thanks so much for the insight. Stepped away for a year and am trying to get caught up on any new developments.

Turksteelman
03-09-20, 13:16
I know Farroukh well. It's been awhile since I talked with him. Thanks for redirecting me back to him. Its been awhile.

Angela
04-09-20, 13:35
The habit of naming someone for the people he or she fought goes back to the Roman Era, i.e. Scipio Africanus.

As a result of the name and the fact that a bust of him was carved from dark stone it was proffered that ancient Romans had a lot of African in them. You really can't make up some of this stuff.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8LbimD4vLtY/TyFg6WavolI/AAAAAAAAATY/mfBPf-Uvvm8/s1600/scipio-africanus-bust.jpg

Diogenis
10-09-20, 02:50
Hello,
I am the Albanian, (E-Y49685), the "relative" of Del Turco. I think than my ancestors moved to that part of the Balkans, where Albania is today, around 1000 years ago. My hypothesis is that they were sent there by Byzantium to spread the Christianity among Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlachs that populated the area at that time. Also, I believe that my ancestors were fully Hellenized/Christianized when moved there. The village of my ancestors is located very close to Greece and Northern Macedonia. I have another "relative", (Based on FamilytreeDNA / Big Y, I and him, belong to the haplogroup E-BY55818), that states that he is an ethnic Macedonian, but he is born in Northern Greece, not far from the village from where my roots are.
Also, the 23andMe shows that I have plenty "relatives" in Peloponnese, Greece.
I have very limited knowledge about the DNA science ... I hope this helps a bit.

Johane Derite
10-09-20, 09:17
Hello,
I am the Albanian, (E-Y49685), the "relative" of Del Turco. I think than my ancestors moved to that part of the Balkans, where Albania is today, around 1000 years ago. My hypothesis is that they were sent there by Byzantium to spread the Christianity among Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlachs that populated the area at that time. Also, I believe that my ancestors were fully Hellenized/Christianized when moved there. The village of my ancestors is located very close to Greece and Northern Macedonia. I have another "relative", (Based on FamilytreeDNA / Big Y, I and him, belong to the haplogroup E-BY55818), that states that he is an ethnic Macedonian, but he is born in Northern Greece, not far from the village from where my roots are.
Also, the 23andMe shows that I have plenty "relatives" in Peloponnese, Greece.
I have very limited knowledge about the DNA science ... I hope this helps a bit.

Full albanians that have no ancestry from peloponnese also get matches in peloponesse because of big medieval Arvanite migration specifically to that site. Some historians put Arvanite percentage as far as 50% even.

I only say this so that you don't make immediately the assumption of origin from there.

Do you have an Albanian surname? I would hesitate from constructing such narratives until further down the line.

Albanians were already christians a 1000 years ago lol.

kingjohn
10-09-20, 14:24
Hello,
I am the Albanian, (E-Y49685), the "relative" of Del Turco. I think than my ancestors moved to that part of the Balkans, where Albania is today, around 1000 years ago. My hypothesis is that they were sent there by Byzantium to spread the Christianity among Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlachs that populated the area at that time. Also, I believe that my ancestors were fully Hellenized/Christianized when moved there. The village of my ancestors is located very close to Greece and Northern Macedonia. I have another "relative", (Based on FamilytreeDNA / Big Y, I and him, belong to the haplogroup E-BY55818), that states that he is an ethnic Macedonian, but he is born in Northern Greece, not far from the village from where my roots are.
Also, the 23andMe shows that I have plenty "relatives" in Peloponnese, Greece.
I have very limited knowledge about the DNA science ... I hope this helps a bit.


that helps thanks for all this information :good_job:
could be an armenian byzantine connection :thinking:
armenians were crucial in byzantine army
and some of the byzantine emperors had armenian ancestery :smile:

http://www.attalus.org/armenian/char1.htm


http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com/2015/07/armenian-legions-in-roman-and-byzantine.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Byzantine_emperors_of_Armenian_origin

Turksteelman
18-09-20, 11:50
Hello,
I am the Albanian, (E-Y49685), the "relative" of Del Turco. I think than my ancestors moved to that part of the Balkans, where Albania is today, around 1000 years ago. My hypothesis is that they were sent there by Byzantium to spread the Christianity among Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlachs that populated the area at that time. Also, I believe that my ancestors were fully Hellenized/Christianized when moved there. The village of my ancestors is located very close to Greece and Northern Macedonia. I have another "relative", (Based on FamilytreeDNA / Big Y, I and him, belong to the haplogroup E-BY55818), that states that he is an ethnic Macedonian, but he is born in Northern Greece, not far from the village from where my roots are.
Also, the 23andMe shows that I have plenty "relatives" in Peloponnese, Greece.
I have very limited knowledge about the DNA science ... I hope this helps a bit.

Hi Diogenis,
I am the Italian (E-Y49685), the relative of Diogenis. From what I can tell, my ancestors originated in the Armenian/Turkey area and then migrated to Italy then to USA in 1905. My earliest descendant that I can locate is from Mosciano Sant Angelo Italy in 1725. It is exciting having someone on the tree that I match with. If you find anything out about our heritage please let me know. Thanks

Pax Augusta
18-09-20, 12:22
Hi Diogenis,
I am the Italian (E-Y49685), the relative of Diogenis. From what I can tell, my ancestors originated in the Armenian/Turkey area and then migrated to Italy then to USA in 1905. My earliest descendant that I can locate is from Mosciano Sant Angelo Italy in 1725. It is exciting having someone on the tree that I match with. If you find anything out about our heritage please let me know. Thanks

How do you know that your ancestors originated in the Armenian/Turkey area? It cannot be based on the surname, because as I have already explained, there are more possible explanations, and in Italy also the Balkan people at some point were called Turks.


that helps thanks for all this information
:good_job:
could be an armenian byzantine connection :thinking:
armenians were crucial in byzantine army
and some of the byzantine emperors had armenian ancestery :smile:

http://www.attalus.org/armenian/char1.htm


http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com/2015/07/armenian-legions-in-roman-and-byzantine.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Byzantine_emperors_of_Armenian_origin


It is possible, but since the user originally from Abruzzo carries as surname Del Turco, and surnames were formed long after the Roman era, if it comes to migration is most likely a much more recent migration due to the expansion of the Ottoman Turks in the Balkans, then how E-Y49685 arrived in the Balkans is another story.

Diogenis
20-09-20, 04:40
Hello Pax Augusta,
I am the Albanian, E-Y49685, the ancient "relative" of Del Turco.

I believe that Armenia, or Levante, are the most possible areas where the E-L791 //// E-Y49685 (E-BY55818) was "created". All the DNA tests that I have taken point towards that direction ... The Yfull results show strong evidence, too.
Any other suggestions you may have is highly appreciated.

Best regards.