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Maciamo
20-01-12, 23:47
The Norman brought hundreds of new names to England (then to the rest of the British Isles). Many evolved and were Anglicised with time, or disappeared in France. Here is a list of the names that have survived with the exact same spelling (though not the same pronunciation) in both countries. Some names are not Norman, just happen to exist in both countries.

Archer
Barret
Baron
Barron
Barry
Beaumont
Bennet (mostly Scottish in UK)
Berry
Bodin
Burton
Cantillon (rare in England)
Colson
Cousin
Darcy
Dillon (rare in France)
Ferry
Forest
Fort
Granger
Granville
Harcourt (rare in France)
Hardy
Havard
Hayes
Herbert
Jolly
Jordan
Lambert
Lombard
Mace
Mandeville (rare in France)
Morel (rare in Britain)
Noble
Page
Paget
Parry (mostly Welsh in UK)
Percy (rare in France)
Perry
Roche
Rose
Roy
Royal
Salmon
Samson (mostly Scottish in UK)
Talbot
Vernon


Many surnames derived from given names tend to coincide in English and French. They are not necessarily of Norman origin. Surnames in this category normally end in -s or in -son in English, so that the variant with s/son is usually rare.

Abraham
Adams (rare in France with a final 's')
Bernard (rare in Britain)
Charles
Colin
Collin
Daniel (mostly Welsh and Cornish in UK)
David (mostly Welsh in UK)
Eliot (rare in both languages)
Francis
Gilbert
Guy
Henry (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Leonard
Martin
Martins
Paul (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Richard
Robin (rare in Britain)
Roger (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Roland
Simon (rare in Britain)
Thomas
Vincent


Feel free to complete the list (after double checking your sources).

MOESAN
16-02-12, 17:06
The Norman brought hundreds of new names to England (then to the rest of the British Isles). Many evolved and were Anglicised with time, or disappeared in France. Here is a list of the names that have survived with the exact same spelling (though not the same pronunciation) in both countries. Some names are not Norman, just happen to exist in both countries.

Archer
Barret
Baron
Barron
Barry
Beaumont
Bennet (mostly Scottish in UK)
Berry
Bodin
Burton
Cantillon (rare in England)
Colson
Cousin
Darcy
Dillon (rare in France)
Ferry
Forest
Fort
Granger
Granville
Harcourt (rare in France)
Hardy
Havard
Hayes
Herbert
Jolly
Jordan
Lambert
Lombard
Mace
Mandeville (rare in France)
Morel (rare in Britain)
Noble
Page
Paget
Parry (mostly Welsh in UK)
Percy (rare in France)
Perry
Roche
Rose
Roy
Royal
Salmon
Samson (mostly Scottish in UK)
Talbot
Vernon


Many surnames derived from given names tend to coincide in English and French. They are not necessarily of Norman origin. Surnames in this category normally end in -s or in -son in English, so that the variant with s/son is usually rare.

Abraham
Adams (rare in France with a final 's')
Bernard (rare in Britain)
Charles
Colin
Collin
Daniel (mostly Welsh and Cornish in UK)
David (mostly Welsh in UK)
Eliot (rare in both languages)
Francis
Gilbert
Guy
Henry (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Leonard
Martin
Martins
Paul (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Richard
Robin (rare in Britain)
Roger (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Roland
Simon (rare in Britain)
Thomas
Vincent


Feel free to complete the list (after double checking your sources).

1- Dillon is supposed to be come in France at the 12° C. with Irishmen going along with Eleonore d'Aquitaine - but irish scholars think that the first Dillon's in Ireland came from Brittany along with Normans of France!
the etymology could be germanic (Dillo? Dietilon? according to A.Dauzat) - in fact this name is not typical of France

2- Some of these names are international, as Martin (France, Germany, G-B, Spain) - Martins is common in Portugal, or Thomas -

St Delcambre
02-03-12, 21:58
I always figured the surname "Chamberlain" would be a shared one between the two. Everyone tells me it's English in origin but it looks and sounds so French. I can only assume it's of Norman origin?

MOESAN
02-03-12, 23:22
I always figured the surname "Chamberlain" would be a shared one between the two. Everyone tells me it's English in origin but it looks and sounds so French. I can only assume it's of Norman origin?

the primary origin is germanic: 'camarling', "chambellan" in french language - today germanic 'kämmerling', flemish surname 'Camerlynck', french surnames 'Chambellan', 'Chambelland', 'Chamberland', 'Chamberlin', 'Camberlin'
the french forms in 'Camb-' are of north-normand or pickard origin the other genuine french "oil" forms begin with 'Chamb-'

the english names of previous anglo-normand dialects are northern froms in C- /k/ not in Ch- /tch/ -
the palatized forms /tch/ are from other french dialects, so according to history the surname 'Chamberlain' would be from angevin dialect distinct from anglo-normand dialect, this angevin(ish) dialect was send to England with the Plantagenêts.
a genuine anglo-saxon word should have been *'Camberling' I suppose

St Delcambre
13-03-12, 00:56
the primary origin is germanic: 'camarling', "chambellan" in french language - today germanic 'kämmerling', flemish surname 'Camerlynck', french surnames 'Chambellan', 'Chambelland', 'Chamberland', 'Chamberlin', 'Camberlin'
the french forms in 'Camb-' are of north-normand or pickard origin the other genuine french "oil" forms begin with 'Chamb-'

the english names of previous anglo-normand dialects are northern froms in C- /k/ not in Ch- /tch/ -
the palatized forms /tch/ are from other french dialects, so according to history the surname 'Chamberlain' would be from angevin dialect distinct from anglo-normand dialect, this angevin(ish) dialect was send to England with the Plantagenêts.
a genuine anglo-saxon word should have been *'Camberling' I suppose

Very interesting, thank you sir!

MOESAN
21-03-12, 16:38
I see this thread got asleep!: we could deal with british surnames common enough and of french (norman or not) origin, even if they are not IDENTICAL to their "cousin" present day french surnames???

Selwyn Greenfrith
19-04-12, 01:49
The Norman brought hundreds of new names to England (then to the rest of the British Isles). Many evolved and were Anglicised with time, or disappeared in France. Here is a list of the names that have survived with the exact same spelling (though not the same pronunciation) in both countries. Some names are not Norman, just happen to exist in both countries.

Archer
Barret
Baron
Barron
Barry
Beaumont
Bennet (mostly Scottish in UK)
Berry
Bodin
Burton
Cantillon (rare in England)
Colson
Cousin
Darcy
Dillon (rare in France)
Ferry
Forest
Fort
Granger
Granville
Harcourt (rare in France)
Hardy
Havard
Hayes
Herbert
Jolly
Jordan
Lambert
Lombard
Mace
Mandeville (rare in France)
Morel (rare in Britain)
Noble
Page
Paget
Parry (mostly Welsh in UK)
Percy (rare in France)
Perry
Roche
Rose
Roy
Royal
Salmon
Samson (mostly Scottish in UK)
Talbot
Vernon


Many surnames derived from given names tend to coincide in English and French. They are not necessarily of Norman origin. Surnames in this category normally end in -s or in -son in English, so that the variant with s/son is usually rare.

Abraham
Adams (rare in France with a final 's')
Bernard (rare in Britain)
Charles
Colin
Collin
Daniel (mostly Welsh and Cornish in UK)
David (mostly Welsh in UK)
Eliot (rare in both languages)
Francis
Gilbert
Guy
Henry (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Leonard
Martin
Martins
Paul (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Richard
Robin (rare in Britain)
Roger (mostly Scottish in the UK)
Roland
Simon (rare in Britain)
Thomas
Vincent


Feel free to complete the list (after double checking your sources).


I'm new here so greetings to all.

I think the thread heading: Identical English and French surnames is somewhat willfully misleading. A good deal of these so-called English lastnames listed herein are neither Norman nor French but either English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, widespread gospelnames and firstnames. I feel the foreword should of forewarned it's readership that the greater share of lastnames listed are nevertheless false friends, just like German lastname Berger and French lastname Berger are also false-cognates, and -sson and -ton endings in French names/places have nowt to do with either Sweden or England.

Has I thought (just by going on firstsight) the hereinbelow lastnames listed are neither from Norman nor French but are English false-cognates...

Perry -
name from the Olde English pre 7th century word "pirige", meaning pear-tree.

Royal -
of Anglo-Saxon origin, locational surname from any one of the places called "Ryal" and "Ryle" in Northumberland, and "Ryhill" in Humberside and West Yorkshire. These places all mean "rye hill", derived from the Olde English pre 7th Century "ryge", rye, and "hyll", hill.[LEFT]

Ferry -
some nameholders in Ireland have English-Viking origins, and in this case the derivation is from the pre 9th Century "Ferja", a word describing one who operates a ferry, or who lives by a ferry. Elizabeth Ferry, who married Richard Moor at Limerick Cathedral on April 10th 1726, was almost certainly of English origins.

one of the spelling forms of the Old Gaelic O'Fearadhaigh, originally a Donegal Clan of Cenel Conaill. The native Irish recordings include the spellings of Farrey, Farry, Feighry, Feragh, Feehery, Feary, Fery and O'Fairy.

Berry -
ancient English surname of topographic or locational origin. Derives either from the pre 7th century 'byrig', meaning 'a fortified place' or the later 'beri', or 'buri' denoting fortified manor house. Topographically the surname was either owner of a manor house, or possibly somebody who lived close by. Locationally the surname may derive from such places as Bury in Huntingdonshire, recorded as Byrig in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles of the year 974, Bury in Lancashire or Sussex, Berry(brow) in Yorkshire, or Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, this latter place being recorded as Sancte Eadmundes Byrig in 1038. The modern surname can be found as Berry, Berrey, Berrie, Bury and Burry.

Hayes -
distinguished and ancient surname is of Anglo-Saxon origin, and is a locational name from any one of a number of places called "Hayes". Hayes in Kent, recorded as "Hese" in the 1168 Pipe Rolls, and in Middlesex, recorded as "Hesa" in the Domesday Book of 1086, derive from the Olde English pre 7th Century "haes", brushwood or underwood. Hayes in Devonshire and Dorset is the plural of the Olde English "(ge)horg" an enclosure, or "hege" a hedge.

Burton -
famous name of Anglo-Saxon origin, and is a locational surname deriving from any one of the numerous places called Burton in England, found mainly in the midland and northern counties. Most of the places are recorded in the Domesday Book of 1086 as, variously, "Burtone, Bortune" or "Bortone", and most share the same meaning and derivation, which is "the settlement by a fort", derived from the Olde English pre 7th Century "burg, burh", fort, often referring to a Roman or other pre-English fort, sometimes a fortified manor, with "tun", enclosure, settlement. Some of the places mean "settlement belonging to a fort", from the same Olde English elements, while Burton in Somerset means "the settlement on the River Bredy" or "Bride", and Burton in Sussex translates as "Budeca's settlement".

Eliot -
interesting surname is of Anglo-Saxon origin, from a personal name which traces its origin to two names recorded in the Domesday Book of 1086; "Ailiet" and "Aliet". Deriving ultimately from the Olde English pre 7th Century "Aeoelgyo" and "Aeoelgeat", they break down to mean in the first instance, "noble combat" ("aoel", noble, and "gyo", battle), and secondly, "noble great" ("aoel", noble, and "gait", goat), which is a masculine form of an old tribal name. Among the variant spellings of Aeolgyo to emerge are Elget and Eliet. These forms have contributed to the frequency of Elliot in its various spellings, so that Aylett and El(l)iot are closely linked. The modern recordings include: Aylett, Aylott, Allatt, Allett, Allitt, Alliott, whilst some nameholders found as Ellyatt, Eliot, Elitt and Eliott derive from the same source.

Bodin - ?
Boden -
number of possible sources for name. First from Olde Frisian personal name "Botha", meaning "messenger", which has a (usually Germanic) patronymic form "Boden". Following related sources are as variants of the name Bowden or Bowdon and are locational or topographical surnames. If locational, Boden from one of the places so called in England and Scotland. In England, in counties of Devon, Derbyshire and Cheshire, "Bowden" means "hill shaped like a bow", from the Old English pre 7th Century "boga", bow, "Buga's hill". The surname can also be topographical, referring to someone who lived at the top of a hill, from "bufan dune", "above the hill".

Harvard -
Recorded as Harvard, Hovard (English and Scottish) and Hovart and Hoovart (Dutch), this interesting name derives from an Olde English pre 7th century personal name. This was 'Hereweard', a compound of the elements "Heri", meaning an army, plus "weard", guard or defence. The name is recorded as Hereuuard and Heruart in the famous Domesday Book of 1086 and it was borne by an 11th Century thane of Lincolnshire known to history as Hereward, the Wake. He defied William the Conqueror, for several years upto 1070, and was never captured alive.



Until this thread I had neverever heard the lastnames: Bodin, Chantillion, Fort, harcourt, Lombard, Mace, Mandeville, Paget, Roche, and Percy (as a lastname). Darcy and Roy ring bells, but seem more towards caricatures and pen-names from the world of literature. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that there is an Norman/French lastname (false-cognate or not) spelt: Burton/Warburton. Indeed, it would be markworthy to know the French meanings of these false-cognates insomuch as whatever the likes of Eliot means in Norman/French it ain't 'ethel gait' (noble gait)



Herbert -
English firstname and lastname and widespread name throughout Europe.

Colson -
Irish Gaelic or widespread name throughout Europe.

Barry -
Irish

Salmon -
Scottish and biblical

Barron/Baron -
Jewish

Maciamo
19-04-12, 09:30
Welcome to the forum, Selwyn Greenfrith.

What matters for me here is to list all the surnames that are spelt identically in French and English, regardless of their respective origins. I am interested in names that can be used in either country without passing for a foreigner.

Some surnames can have various possible roots. When it comes to the etymology of surnames, not much in known for certain. It's mostly guesses based on resemblances. You cite mostly Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) etymology for those names, but that does not disqualify them from being Norman or even non-Norman French. Plenty of French names are of Germanic origin. Let's take the example of Hayes. You mention the Old English root "hege" (hedge), but that is precisely what the name means in French (Hayes is a variant spelling of haies meaning hedges). Yet the French word for hedge is itself of Frankish origin, derived from the Old Germanic word hagja. So it's hard to say whether the English name came from French or underwent the exact same spelling change starting from the Anglo-Saxon word.

The given name and family name Herbert is also typically Germanic. It obviously isn't originally English nor French. Actually I should have listed it in the surnames derived from given names. I will rectify this.

The surname Burton is surely not of Norman origin as within France it is found only in the north-east (as well as Belgium).

Then I have never mentioned Harvard but Havard.


Until this thread I had neverever heard the lastnames: Bodin, Chantillion, Fort, harcourt, Lombard, Mace, Mandeville, Paget, Roche, and Percy (as a lastname). Darcy and Roy ring bells, but seem more towards caricatures and pen-names from the world of literature.

You should check the distribution map (http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/default.aspx) for these names within the UK. Some names are very local. For instance Darcy is found almost only in Lancashire, while Mandeville is mostly found in Yorkshire.

Percy is the family name of the Dukes of Northumberland, one of Britain's most illustrious noble family. The given name comes from the surname rather than the other way round. That's actually a Scottish practice. Many aristocratic Scottish names were later used as given names (Douglas, Gordon, Stewart, Scott, Graham, Bruce, Melville, Leslie, Lindsay), especially in the USA.

Selwyn Greenfrith
21-04-12, 02:51
What matters for me here is to list all the surnames that are spelt identically in French and English, regardless of their respective origins. I am interested in names that can be used in either country without passing for a foreigner.

Hullo Maciamo, insofar as you did also cite them as 'Norman brought' names - thereby 'cooking the books' methought it fitting to mark that half or more of these English and French lastnames with shared spellings are in truth false-cognates and have nothing to do with eachother.



Some surnames can have various possible roots. When it comes to the etymology of surnames, not much in known for certain. It's mostly guesses based on resemblances. You cite mostly Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) etymology for those names, but that does not disqualify them from being Norman or even non-Norman French. Plenty of French names are of Germanic origin. Let's take the example of Hayes. You mention the Old English root "hege" (hedge), but that is precisely what the name means in French (Hayes is a variant spelling of haies meaning hedges). Yet the French word for hedge is itself of Frankish origin, derived from the Old Germanic word hagja. So it's hard to say whether the English name came from French or underwent the exact same spelling change starting from the Anglo-Saxon word.


Sorry, but none of the lastnames I highlighted which came out as A.S. have been shown to bare roots from either Norman or French. Notwithstanding any uncanny likeness shown to them they are all fully broken down as having sundry meanings from Old English. If anything, British educated rungs hanker for any French endgame to British etymology. Furthermore, it's worth marking that even a good deal of the certified Norman names found in the UK like: 'Harcourt' are either misrooted or have a sunder etymology. Heed, the native etymologies are almost twice as old as the invasive etymology...

Harcourt
This name is of locational origin either from the town and ancient chateau of Harcourt near Brionne in Normandy so called from the Olde French 'cour(t)' meaning a court, plus an obscure first element, or from Harcourt near Cleobury Mortimer in Shropshire. Recorded as Havretescote in the Domesday Book of 1086 and as Havekercot in 'The Hundred Rolls of Shropshire' dated 1274, the name derives from the Old English pre 7th Century 'haforcere', a hawker or falconer, plus 'cot(e)', a cottage hence 'the falconer's cottage'. Another place called Harcourt near Wem in Shropshire; recorded as Harpecote in the Domesday Book, derives its first element from the Old 'hearpere', a harper. One, Philip de Harecourt was recorded in the Knights Templars Records, of Sussex, dated 1139, and Sir Robert de Harcourt (deceased 1202) acquired the manor of Stanton in Oxfordshire.


Even outside of recent aquisitions like Fr. Flanders and Elsass-Lothringen im sure your right about many French names being of Germanic origin like 'Hayes' But (albeit a dead ringer) 'Hayes' found in England is from Old English not Norman/French. Utterlilike how almost all roots for 'Harcourt' are not from Norman but from the likes of 'Harpecote' itself harbouring another false-cognate wordbit: -cote, which yet again has noting to do with -cote found in French placenames.

Flagging up presume similarites between English-Norman/French names can be befuddling if treated without depth. Whereby the kindred locationals found in England: Hawkesgarth and Harcourt will have nowt to do with Harcourt in Normandy!
Whereby the name of Ségolène Royal should not be thought of as: Ségolène Ryhill/Ryhall/Ryhull (Ségolène Colline Seigle). And whereby the name of an English bloke hight:'Colin Royal' would be either Gaelic or Norse + Old English lastname. Whereas aFrench guy named 'Colin Royal' would be from the French diminutive form of "Colle", a short French form of Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas) (Greek) + from O.Fr. roial, from L. regalis making up the lastname. Whereby even though names like: Beaumont, Archer, Granger, Page, Forest, could indeed be brought hither from Normandy/France, they are not Germanic but Latin in roots unlike say Henry.

Anyway, I had another sift through and both Havard/Harvard/Hayes/Lambert (has found in England) are not from Norman/French roots.

Maciamo could you please help with the French etymologies found in placenames/lastnames which also show a false-cognate to English, German and other Germanic placenames/lastnames...

-sson (nowt to do with Swedish Anderson English Anderson and other Germanic -son lastnames) ?
-ton (Argenton, Charenton etc nowt to do with English -ton) ?
-ney -ey -sey -ley -say -ay (nowt to do with Watney, Stepney, Putney, Hackney, Bungay, Cray, Selsey, Eckersley in England nor Grimsey in Iceland nor Ecksley, Hacheney, Fley, Elsey, Bredeney, Nordeney, Ardey, Boy, Kray in Germany) ?
-dam- (nowt to do with the -dam in Amsterdam Holland nor the one in Potsdam Germany) ?
-berry (nowt to do with either -burgh or eating berries) ?
-lille- (nowt to do with either little or Norweigian: Lillehammer/Lillestrom) ?
-lande- (nowt to do with Germanic land) ?
-aing (nowt to do with English Germanic -ingas/ing) ?
-oing (see above)
-try (-try in French placename: Commentry etc nowt to do with -try(tree) in English placenames: Daventry,Coventry,Owestry,Hawtry) ?
-tal (nowt to do with German -thal/tal nor English -dale) ?
-nol (nowt to do with knoll,knowl,nall,nal) ?

Selwyn Greenfrith
21-04-12, 02:55
Even outside of Normandy and recent 'acquisitions' like Fr. Flanders and Elsass-Lothringen im sure your right about many French names being of Germanic origin like 'Hayes' But (albeit a dead ringer) 'Hayes' found in England is from Old English not Norman/French. Utterlilike how almost all roots for 'Harcourt' are not from Norman but from the likes of 'Harpecote' itself harbouring another false-cognate wordbit: -cote, which yet again has noting to do with -cote found in French placenames.

Flagging up presume kindredness between English and Norman/French names can be befuddling if undertook without depth. Whereby the kindred (but sunder looking) locationals found in England: Hawkesgarth and Harcourt will have nowt to do with Harcourt in Normandy!
Whereby the name of Ségolène Royal should not be thought of as: Ségolène Ryehill/Ryhill/Ryhall/Ryhull (Ségolène Colline Seigle!). And whereby the name of an English or Scottish bloke hight: 'Colin Royal' would be either Norse or Gaelic + Old English lastname. Whereas a French guy named 'Colin Royal' would be from the French diminutive form of "Colle", a short French form of Nicholas (Greek) + from O.Fr. roial, from L. regalis making up the lastname. Whereby even though names like: Beaumont, Archer, Granger, Page, Forest, could indeed be brought hither from Normandy/France, they are not Germanic but Latin in roots unlike say Henry.

Anyway, I had another sift through and both Havard/Harvard/Hayes/Lambert (has found in England) are not from Norman/French roots.

Maciamo could you please help with the French etymologies found in French placenames/lastnames which also show a false-cognateness to English, German and other Germanic placenames/lastnames...

-sson (nowt to do with Swedish Anderson English Anderson and other Germanic -son lastnames) ?
-ton (Argenton, Charenton etc nowt to do with English -ton) ?
-ney -ey -sey -ley -say -ay (nowt to do with Watney, Stepney, Putney, Hackney, Bungay, Cray, Selsey, Eckersley in England nor Grimsey in Iceland nor Ecksley, Hacheney, Fley, Elsey, Bredeney, Nordeney, Ardey, Boy, Kray in Germany) ?
-dam- (nowt to do with the -dam in Amsterdam Holland nor the one in Potsdam Germany) ?
-berry (nowt to do with either -burgh or eating berries) ?
-lille- (nowt to do with either 'little' nor Norweigian: Lillehammer/Lillestrom) ?
-lande- (nowt to do with Germanic -land) ?
-aing (nowt to do with English and other Germanic -ingas/ing) ?
-oing (see above)
-try (-try in French placename: Commentry etc nowt to do with -try(tree) in English placenames: Daventry,Coventry,Owestry,Hawtry) ?
-tal (nowt to do with German -thal/tal nor English -dale) ?
-nol (nowt to do with knoll,knowl,nall,nal) ?
-cote (nowt to do with Germanic -cot) ?

Selwyn Greenfrith
21-04-12, 03:57
Maciamo for whatever reason my above post is playing games and has somehow changed itself into head-to-toe bold! Do you know how I can get it back to how it's meant to be i.e normal script with italic and bold where needed for names?

Maciamo
21-04-12, 08:35
Sorry, but none of the lastnames I highlighted which came out as A.S. have been shown to bare roots from either Norman or French. Notwithstanding any uncanny likeness shown to them they are all fully broken down as having sundry meanings from Old English. If anything, British educated rungs hanker for any French endgame to British etymology. Furthermore, it's worth marking that even a good deal of the certified Norman names found in the UK like: 'Harcourt' are either misrooted or have a sunder etymology. Heed, the native etymologies are almost twice as old as the invasive etymology...

Harcourt
This name is of locational origin either from the town and ancient chateau of Harcourt near Brionne in Normandy so called from the Olde French 'cour(t)' meaning a court, plus an obscure first element, or from Harcourt near Cleobury Mortimer in Shropshire. Recorded as Havretescote in the Domesday Book of 1086 and as Havekercot in 'The Hundred Rolls of Shropshire' dated 1274, the name derives from the Old English pre 7th Century 'haforcere', a hawker or falconer, plus 'cot(e)', a cottage hence 'the falconer's cottage'. Another place called Harcourt near Wem in Shropshire; recorded as Harpecote in the Domesday Book, derives its first element from the Old 'hearpere', a harper. One, Philip de Harecourt was recorded in the Knights Templars Records, of Sussex, dated 1139, and Sir Robert de Harcourt (deceased 1202) acquired the manor of Stanton in Oxfordshire.


Even outside of recent aquisitions like Fr. Flanders and Elsass-Lothringen im sure your right about many French names being of Germanic origin like 'Hayes' But (albeit a dead ringer) 'Hayes' found in England is from Old English not Norman/French. Utterlilike how almost all roots for 'Harcourt' are not from Norman but from the likes of 'Harpecote' itself harbouring another false-cognate wordbit: -cote, which yet again has noting to do with -cote found in French placenames.

You obviously seem to have issues about some English names being of French origin. But it's quite easy to prove if some names are or Norman origin or not. Just trace back the genealogy. For Harcourt, there are clear paper trails showing how the Norman noble family was part of the invading forces of William the Conqueror. The English House of Harcourt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Harcourt) originated with Errand of Harcourt and his three brothers, who followed William the Conqueror on his invasion of England. The English Harcourt branch entered the English peerage, as barons then viscounts then earls.

I suggest that you check other surnames that you claim aren't Norman as well.

Selwyn Greenfrith
21-04-12, 19:25
You obviously seem to have issues about some English names being of French origin. But it's quite easy to prove if some names are or Norman origin or not. Just trace back the genealogy. For Harcourt, there are clear paper trails showing how the Norman noble family was part of the invading forces of William the Conqueror. The English House of Harcourt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Harcourt) originated with Errand of Harcourt and his three brothers, who followed William the Conqueror on his invasion of England. The English Harcourt branch entered the English peerage, as barons then viscounts then earls.

I suggest that you check other surnames that you claim aren't Norman as well.

Maciamo the more I look into those lastnames you listed, the more it turns out they have nothing to do with Normandy nor France.

Not all, but most of the lastnames you listed are nowt but false-cognates. Even the lastname 'Harcourt' (which even I thought was nothing but Norman in roots) turns out to bare 3 roots from English and only 1 from Norman.

MOESAN
27-07-12, 22:55
Selwyn Greenfrith
thanks for some "etymologies" of surnames seaming of french or norman oriigin -
you seam having a good knowledge of this stuff: just to go in details, very often, the most of the names listed by Maciamo have french origin AND other origin, anglo-saxon as you point out - the attraction of well known surnames did change some spellings giving us an unique spelling for different origines (but as you say as Maciamo too, a lot of old personal french and norman names was of germanic origin (continental or scandinavian) -
speaking

MOESAN
27-07-12, 23:02
sorry ... speaking of irish, welsh or scottish surnames about these names is not too relevant because the most of them concerns romance and germanic languages and was formed outside of Ireland, Wales and Scotland - the origin of Barry in ireland seams well established and from France origin even if the family stayed in Wales sometime - I think the same concerning the name Hayes of ireland (french norman origin) - by the way, SOME OF THE surname Bowman in England should be false spellings (analogy) of Beaumont, according to Reaney -
but as a whole I find very profitable yout intervention here as you seam knowing far more than me about Brittain surnames even if I have some rough basis
good evening

MOESAN
27-07-12, 23:14
I add that the convergences of english or celtic diverse surnames into a pseudo-french spelling show the presence of french origin surnames (as Royal?) and the desire to get closer to a so called "elite" or an "normalisation" - the same occurred with some breton celtic surnames in France
AN MOAN (tiny, slim) >> LE MOAN >> LE MOINE (monk!) - sometimes without error of spelling, just of meaning
AN MAD/LE MAT (good, worthy >> 'mât' = mast) -- AN BRAS/LE BRAS (big, great, large >> 'bras' (braç) = arm of body)

MOESAN
27-07-12, 23:44
Just for the fun I post here a list of "english" or "irish" surnames that seam having very possible french or french-speaking areas origin - it is not a scientific survey, only a stuff to be worked - in bold letters, the ones that seam of toponymic origin (towns ...) - some are christian names of germanic francized origin or of saints international calendar origin (but of french pronunciation) and passed into the british corpus and given to genuine celtic or saxon autochtones - some of them are french common nouns that passed in english, so they can having be carried by french Normans or assimilated invaders, or by some indiviual emigrant, or more surely by genuine british autochtones...



Archer¤
Larcher


Gibbins
Gilbert ?






Aubrey ?
Aubry


Gibbon(s)
Gilbert ?






Austin
Aoustin/Augustin


Gifford
Giffard






Avery
Avry/Avril


Gillett
Gilet/Gilet






Bacon¤
Baccon


Goddard
Godard






Baggott
Bagot


Gra(i)nger
Granger






Bailey ?
Bailly


Grace
Grâce ?






Barber¤
Barbier


Grange
Grange/Lagrange






Barratt
Barrat


Granville
Grandville






Barrell
Barreau


Gravell(e)
Gravelle






Barrett
Barret


Grosvenor
Grosveneur






Barry Ir.
Barry


Gurney
Gournay






Bartlett
Berthelet


Herriott
Herriot






Bassett
Basset


Jardine
Jardin/Gardin






Bayley
Bailly


Jarman
Germain






Bayliss ?




Jarrett
Germain






Beaulieu
Beaulieu


Jarvis
Gervais






Beaumont
Beaumont


Jeff(e)ries
Geffroy






Beckett
Becquet/Béchet


Jeffery
Geffroy






Bell 2
Lebel, Beau


Jeffrey(s)
Geffroy






Benjamin
Benjamin


Jeffries
Geffroy






Bennett
Benoît/Benoist


Jerman
Germain






Betambeau
?


Jervis
Gervais






Betton ?
Betton


Jolley
Joly/Joliff






Blewett
Bleuet


Jolliff
Joly/Joliff






Blewitt
Bleuet


Jowett
Jouet






Blount ?
Blond


Joyce Ir.
Joies ????






Blundell
Blondel/Blondeau


Latimer
Latimier






Bonner
Bonnier


Lockett
Loquet






Bowcott ?
Boucot ?


Lovatt
Louvet/Loubet






Bower(s)
Bouvier/Boyer


Lovell
Louvel/Louveau






Bowkett
Bouquet


Lovett
Louvet/Loubet






Bowyer
Boyer/Bouvier


Lyons
Lyons






Boyce
Bois/Dubois


Mallett
Mallet






Bray ?
Bray ?


Malpass
Malpasse






Brazier
Brasier


Marchant
Marchand






Brett
Bret/Lebret


Marriot(t)
Mariot






Brown¤¤
Brun/Lebrun


Mas(s)on
Masson






Bryant Br.
Briant/Briand (breton)


Maynard
Meynard






Burdett ?
Bourdet


Millard ?
Milard ???






Burgess¤
Bourgeois


Mitchell
Michel/Michaud






Burgoyne
Bougogne/Bourgoin


Moline(a)ux
Moulineaux






Burgwin
Bourgoin/Bourgogne


Molyne(a)ux
Moulineaux






Burke
Bourg/Dubourg


Morley ?
La Morelay






Burnell
Brunel/Bruneau


Mullard
Mulard ?






Burnett
Brunet


Mullett
Mulet






Butler¤
Bouteiller


Murrell
Morel/Moreau






Byard
Bayard ?


Napper
Nappier ??






Carpenter¤
Carpentier/Charpentier


Nevill(e)
Neuville






Carter¤
Cartier/Charretier


Newell
Nouvel/Nouveau+Neuville ?






Challenor ?




Newill
Nouvel/Nouveau+Neuville ?






Challinor ?




Nicklin
Nicolin






Challoner ?




Norris








Chamberlain
Chamberlin …


Nowell
Noël ?/Nouvel ?






Chambers¤
Chambres ?


Nowill
Noël ?/Nouvel ?






Chandler¤
Chandelier


Nugent
Nogent






Chaplin
Chapelain


Padgett
Paget






Chappell
Chappel/Chapeau


Page¤
Page/Lepage






Cheyne
Chêne/Duchesne


Paget(t)
Paget






Cheyney
Chênaie


Paris
Paris






Collins
Colin/Collin


Parrott¤ 2
Perrot






Conde ?
Condé ?


Passant
Passant ?






Corbett
Courbet


Pearce
Pierre






Cott(e)r(r)ell
Cotterel/Cottereau ?


Pennell
Penel/ ?






Cott(e)rill
Cotterel/Cottereau ?


Pennill
Penel/ ?






Cousins
Cousin


Percival ?
Parcifal ?






Cumming(s)
Comine ?


Perrett
Perret






Currie




Perrin(s)
Perrin






Curtis
Courtois


Perrott
Perrot






Cutler
Coutelier


Pettit(t)
Petit/Lepetit






Davenport ???
D'Avanport ?


Pinnell
Pinel/Pineau






Den(n)is
Denis


Plunkett
Plancquet???Planchet ???






Devere(a)ux
D'Evreux


Pomeroy
Pommeroi ?






Dorricott




Porter¤
Portier






Dowsett
Doucet


Potter¤
Potier/Le Pottier






Drap(i)er
Drappier


Power 2
Pauvre






Drummond ?




Prideaux
Pridel/Prideau ?






Duckett
Duchet ?


Purcell
Pourcel/Pourceau






Dur(r)ant
Durand


Pursell
Pourcel/Pourceau






Elliot(t)
Elliot


Ramage
Ramage ?






Everett
Evrard


Rayner
Reynier






Everitt
Evrard


Rickett(s)
Riquet/Richet






Fawcett
Faucet ????


Riddell
Ridel/Rideau ?






Fewtrell
Foutrel


Rivett
Rivet






Fitzgerald Ir.




Rob(b)ins
Robin






Fitzgibbon Ir.




Roche
Roche






Fitzhugh Ir.




Rouse ?
Roux/Leroux ???






Fitzmaurice




Royall
Royal






Fitzpatrick Ir.




Royle
Royal ?






Fitzroy




Russell
Roussel/Rousseau






Fitzsimmons




Savage¤
Sauvage






Fitzwalter




Savidge
Sauvage






Fitzwilliam




Saville
?






Fletcher
Flécher


Scriven
Ecrivain ?






Forrester
Forestier


Scrivener








Fottrell
Foutrel


Seymour ???








Foulkes
Foulque


Silvester
Sylvestre






Fowkes
Foulque


Sinclair
Saint-Clair ?






Fraser
Fraisier


Somerville
Sommerville ???






Fraz(i)er
Fraisier


Tavernor
Tavernier/Tabernier






Frizell
Fraisier


Tibbett(s)








Furnell
Fourneau


Tibbot(t)








Furness




Trickett
Tricquet/Trichet ?






Furniss




Varley
?






Furnival
Fournival


Varney
?






Gallier(s)




Venables
?






Garratt
Jarret


Vernon
Vernon






Garrett
Jarret


Wil(l)mott
Guillemot(Guillaume/Wuillaume)






Gascoigne
Gascogne/Gâcoin


Willett(s)
Guillet(Guillaume/Wuillaume)






Gascoyne
Gascogne/Gâcoin


Gibbins
Gilbert ?









Gibbon(s)
Gilbert ?






























you can give our "community" your explanations if you are well informed - and do not forget that spelling of surnames can change and conceal some genuine foreign forms...
just for the fun, keep it in mind

JFWR
28-07-12, 05:33
You might want to add Rowe there. Rowe has a potential origin in Norman culture, though it might be fully Cornish or native English.

Michel Gilson
08-05-13, 21:06
Looking for the surname Gilson among Norman surnames. Can anyone offer any direction?

MOESAN
11-05-13, 15:13
in France, some surnames in -SON are considered as diminutives names:
PIERRE >> PIERSON - MAURICE/MORICE >< MORISSON - JEAN >> JEANSON - THOMAS >> THOMASSON/MASSON
what is funny is that they are more common seemingly in N-E France (what explanation? germanic??? not evident but ...?)
GILSON could be GILLES+SON ("little Giles"???) -
if from Britain, it could be a mix of gaelic GILL or anglo-normand GILES + english SON, but it is only bets
you can go on the french forum: FORUM DES NOMS DE FAMILLE - CARTES POSTALES DU ROUSSILLON and ask for this name (it 's free)