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spongetaro
28-01-12, 16:54
The initial "P" has been lost in Gaulish so instead of "Parisii", we should have "Arisii" in Gaulish.
Similar pheneomenon is found in Lusitanian and maybe in the languages of the so called "Nordvestblock" (Benelux and Northwest Germany).
This could mean that the Celts were not the first Indo European to settle in Western Europe. Bernard Sergent classsify the Parisii among a Macro Italic family which apparently reach France before the Celts and was later Celticized. The Seine Oise Marne culture of Belgium and Northern Francewhich l asted from around 3100 to 2000 BCE (during and before the Bell Beakers) could have start the Indo Europeanizatio of Atlantic Europe.
Note that in south east France, the first Indo european are not the Celts but the Ligurian.

Taranis
28-01-12, 18:00
The initial "P" has been lost in Gaulish so instead of "Parisii", we should have "Arisii" in Gaulish.
Similar pheneomenon is found in Lusitanian and maybe in the languages of the so called "Nordvestblock" (Benelux and Northwest Germany).
This could mean that the Celts were not the first Indo European to settle in Western Europe. Bernard Sergent classsify the Parisii among a Macro Italic family which apparently reach France before the Celts and was later Celticized. The Seine Oise Marne culture of Belgium and Northern Francewhich l asted from around 3100 to 2000 BCE (during and before the Bell Beakers) could have start the Indo Europeanizatio of Atlantic Europe.
Note that in south east France, the first Indo european are not the Celts but the Ligurian.

Regarding *p being lost in Celtic, we are only taking about the *p inherited from Proto-Indo-European. P-Celtic languages, like Gaulish, however, developed a secondary /p/ sound that corresponds with Proto-Indo-European *kw. If we consider the latter, then the /p/ in "Paris" can easily be Celtic. The best etymology, in my opinion, is from the Celtic word for "cauldron":

Old Irish "coire" (cauldron), Scottish Gaelic "coire" (kettle), Welsh "pair".

Furthermore, it should be noted that there also was a "Parisii" tribe living in northern England, which may be related with the Gaulish Parisii.

I do, however, agree with your assessment regarding western Iberia, since the Celtiberian language is known to have lost the PIE *p (it is, after all, Celtic) while at the same time also retaining (just like ancient Irish), PIE *kw.

You also mentioned the Lusitanian language, which fits the description of having retained the *p sound of Proto-Indo-European.

spongetaro
28-01-12, 18:09
Regarding *p being lost in Celtic, we are only taking about the *p inherited from Proto-Indo-European. P-Celtic languages, like Gaulish, however, developed a secondary /p/ sound that corresponds with Proto-Indo-European *kw. If we consider the latter, then the /p/ in "Paris" can easily be Celtic. The best etymology, in my opinion, is from the Celtic word for "cauldron":

Old Irish "coire" (cauldron), Scottish Gaelic "coire" (kettle), Welsh "pair".

Furthermore, it should be noted that there also was a "Parisii" tribe living in northern England, which may be related with the Gaulish Parisii.

I do, however, agree with your assessment regarding western Iberia, since the Celtiberian language is known to have lost the PIE *p (it is, after all, Celtic) while at the same time also retaining (just like ancient Irish), PIE *kw.

You also mentioned the Lusitanian language, which fits the description of having retained the *p sound of Proto-Indo-European.

Thanks, but the Nordvestblock theory is based on the fact that tribes in Netherland and Belgium had that initial "P". What do you think about it?

spongetaro
28-01-12, 18:10
Also there was a trbe called Sequana near Paris which might prove the existence of Q celtic in Gaul

Taranis
28-01-12, 18:26
Thanks, but the Nordvestblock theory is based on the fact that tribes in Netherland and Belgium had that initial "P". What do you think about it?

I have no definite answer for the Northwestblock. The overwhelming evidence from the area is of course Celtic, except for the immediate vicinity of the Rhine delta, where you also find Germanic names. It's possible that there was such a "Northwestblock" language, which retained PIE *p (unlike Celtic, which lost it, and unlike Germanic, which shifted it to *f), but it's also equally possible that these names are actually Germanic, specifically a reflecting an earlier stage of the Germanic language that precedes Grimm's Law.


Also there was a trbe called Sequana near Paris which might prove the existence of Q celtic in Gaul

Well, yes, there is the Sequana river, and there's other peculiar occurences of *kw in Gaulish, such as the "Sequani" and "Quariates" tribes, as well as the month name "Equos" (as opposed to expected "Epos") in the Coligny Calendar, which all come from the same approximate general area (modern-day eastern France). I do not know the definite answer here, but it has been discussed if there was a dialect variety amongst Gaulish which retained the Proto-Celtic *kw.

spongetaro
28-01-12, 18:36
I have no definite answer for the Northwestblock. The overwhelming evidence from the area is of course Celtic, except for the immediate vicinity of the Rhine delta, where you also find Germanic names. It's possible that there was such a "Northwestblock" language, which retained PIE *p (unlike Celtic, which lost it, and unlike Germanic, which shifted it to *f), but it's also equally possible that these names are actually Germanic, specifically a reflecting an earlier stage of the Germanic language that precedes Grimm's Law.



Well, yes, there is the Sequana tribes, and there's other peculiar occurences of *kw in Gaulish, such as the "Sequani" and "Quariates" tribes, as well as the month name "Equos" (as opposed to expected "Epos") in the Coligny Calendar, which all come from the same approximate general area (modern-day eastern France). I do not know the definite answer here, but it has been discussed if there was a dialect variety amongst Gaulish which retained the Proto-Celtic *kw.

Thank you. I really think that names of Tribes and languages that retained initial "P" evolved from the Seine Oise Marne culture which reached Northern France and Belgium just before Bell Beaker era and that is maybe linked with Corded Ware culture.

Taranis
28-01-12, 18:59
Thank you. I really think that names of Tribes and languages that retained initial "P" evolved from the Seine Oise Marne culture which reached Northern France and Belgium just before Bell Beaker era and that is maybe linked with Corded Ware culture.

That sounds doubtfully early to me. I would rather look into the Bronze Age, such as the Hilversum Culture.

spongetaro
28-01-12, 19:17
That sounds doubtfully early to me. I would rather look into the Bronze Age, such as the Hilversum Culture.

I agree but archeological remains of the S.O.M culture have been found as late as 1100 BC in Belgium.
What I'm not really sure is the link between Continental North West Europe bronze age culture (Hilversum, S.O.M, armorican tumuli...) and British culture of the same time because if the former had languages that retained initial "p", from where in continental Europe did the Q celtic language of Ireland originate?

Taranis
28-01-12, 19:39
I agree but archeological remains of the S.O.M culture have been found as late as 1100 BC in Belgium.
What I'm not really sure is the link between Continental North West Europe bronze age culture (Hilversum, S.O.M, armorican tumuli...) and British culture of the same time because if the former had languages that retained initial "p", from where in continental Europe did the Q celtic language of Ireland originate?

You're asking some big questions here. I'd like to say that one should try to maintain some scepticism for trying to link archaeological cultures with specific languages, something that though possible in individual cases gets very questionable if you go back further in time. As you know, some people have attempted to see the origin of the Celtic languages in the Beaker Bell Culture, other have sought the origin of the Celtic languages in the Bronze Age Atlantic region. Then you have the traditional view that the origin of the Celtic languages lies in the cultures of Hallstatt and La-Tene. None of these concepts is able to explain what we are really seeing, and each of the hypotheses has significant shortfalls (Beaker-Bell that it expanded into Scandinavia, North Africa, Corscia and Sardinia - the Atlantic Bronze Age that there's an absence of west-to-east migrations to explain the presence of Celts in Central Europe, and with Hallstatt and La-Tene the presence of Celtic languages in Iberia).

The situation in the Bronze Age in the entire Atlantic region is very confusing, also in so far as there's a lot of continuity with earlier megalithic traditions. It's been sporadically pointed out before, some of the later main construction phases at Stone Henge occur in the Wessex Culture. It is very difficult to assess how this continuity corresponds to the linguistic situation. There is, for instance, the possibility that the site continued to be used despite changing ethnicities/languages.

Diviacus
29-01-12, 19:33
Regarding *p being lost in Celtic, we are only taking about the *p inherited from Proto-Indo-European. P-Celtic languages, like Gaulish, however, developed a secondary /p/ sound that corresponds with Proto-Indo-European *kw. If we consider the latter, then the /p/ in "Paris" can easily be Celtic. The best etymology, in my opinion, is from the Celtic word for "cauldron"
According to X Delamarre, Parisii comes really from pario- (cauldron).
Note that we have also the Pictavii (Pictones) and the Petrucorii with initial p (with no link to the S.O.M cullture ?).
The formation of the Parisii is generally assumed to be in the IIIth century.

Taranis
29-01-12, 19:57
According to X Delamarre, Parisii comes really from pario- (cauldron).
Note that we have also the Pictavii (Pictones) and the Petrucorii with initial p (with no link to the S.O.M cullture ?).
The formation of the Parisii is generally assumed to be in the IIIth century.

This is a good point. In regard for the Petrucorii, the most likely etymology is something akin to "four armies". (Proto-Celtic *kwetru- + *korjo-). For the first element, you can compare it with Breton "pevar", Welsh "pedwar" and Latin "quattuor". For the second element, you can compare it with Gothic "harjis" and German "Heer", both which mean "army", as well as Lithuanian "karas" ("war"). In regard for the Pictavi/Pictones however, I'm not sure about the etymology.

MOESAN
29-01-12, 20:02
Thank you. I really think that names of Tribes and languages that retained initial "P" evolved from the Seine Oise Marne culture which reached Northern France and Belgium just before Bell Beaker era and that is maybe linked with Corded Ware culture.

for metrics traits, the human stock of S.O.M. culture don't seam to have the same origin as the Corded culture people (i'm not aware of archeological tight links between the two groups too, but my short "knowledge" is old)

spongetaro
29-01-12, 20:27
for metrics traits, the human stock of S.O.M. culture don't seam to have the same origin as the Corded culture people (i'm not aware of archeological tight links between the two groups too, but my short "knowledge" is old)



The Indo European influence could be only cultural. But even if SOM was IE, it was apparently replaced by the non IE Artenac culture from Massif central (Last Chassean).
Artenac culture is maybe the direct ancestor of Aquitanian people.

Hal Fao
29-01-12, 20:28
May be it cognates with Albanian "Pari" (Elite) :good_job:

Yetos
30-01-12, 09:04
Paris

from Greek etymology we find it only in Plural number until 1950
εν Παρισιοις εις Παρισιοις etc

that means that words Paris is a sum of same things,
what these could be?

1 comparing Greek word we find the word Παριες, peasants-farmers around city
2 we find the word Βαρη Βαρικος Βουρκος, swampy place an area with small puddles that is mostly full of mud
3 Paros and Pharos from Πυρ compare Greek toponyms
4 a forced settlement by foreigners compare Paroikoi, or a merchant class of foreigners Παροικοι,

personaly I believe that is connected with Greek Βαρη, Makedonian Barikos, Slavic Bara word for Heavy soil, wet soil
I believe IE origin

Taranis
30-01-12, 09:55
Paris

from Greek etymology we find it only in Plural number until 1950
εν Παρισιοις εις Παρισιοις etc

that means that words Paris is a sum of same things,
what these could be?

1 comparing Greek word we find the word Παριες, peasants-farmers around city
2 we find the word Βαρη Βαρικος Βουρκος, swampy place an area with small puddles that is mostly full of mud
3 Paros and Pharos from Πυρ compare Greek toponyms
4 a forced settlement by foreigners compare Paroikoi, or a merchant class of foreigners Παροικοι,

personaly I believe that is connected with Greek Βαρη, Makedonian Barikos, Slavic Bara word for Heavy soil, wet soil
I believe IE origin

spongetaro was talking about the city of Paris, which is clearly named after the Parisii tribe. :smile:

spongetaro
30-01-12, 14:31
Also I find weird that the Parisii of "Paris" settled so far in Yorkshire . In my opinion, a third Parisii tribe must have existed, near the north sea.

Taranis
30-01-12, 18:22
Also I find weird that the Parisii of "Paris" settled so far in Yorkshire . In my opinion, a third Parisii tribe must have existed, near the north sea.

Not necessarily. It had been suggested that on archaeological grounds that the Arras Culture (5th century BC) of Yorkshire is evidence of a invasion/migration from the Paris basin area. In that case, the British Parisii would indeed be descendants of the Gaulish Parisii.

MOESAN
03-02-12, 00:54
The Indo European influence could be only cultural. But even if SOM was IE, it was apparently replaced by the non IE Artenac culture from Massif central (Last Chassean).
Artenac culture is maybe the direct ancestor of Aquitanian people.


I know classical metrics studies are not too much in favor and that the problem of culture and language in not properly a problem of genes but people don't change 'look' nor languages as quickly that someones suppose -
your Chassean seam (according to my slender readings) a local adaptation of Cardial culture, no?
I don't believe the bulk of S.O.M was Ind-Euro.- and yes they underwent influences coming from Central but before that from South France at the last Neolithic and yet the skeletons surveys show the arriving of "foreigners" (Rhne-Sane-Seine rivers as a highway) I 'm tempted to link to previous Cardial sources from South France and Mediterranee (1/3 of the population approximatively in the stone structures of le-de-France) -
or we consider that Cardial people was Ind-Euro- people??? but then the Corded people are discarted...
and on an other side I don's see the I-E "comrades" letting their place to newcomers -

MOESAN
03-02-12, 00:59
I add for the topic in general that I don't see why we try to link the name Parisi to a pre-celtic tribe: P- was lost in typical celtic languages but Kw-evolved in P- in its place, no?
or somebody of us has the verified etymology of this name?

Taranis
03-02-12, 16:52
I add for the topic in general that I don't see why we try to link the name Parisi to a pre-celtic tribe: P- was lost in typical celtic languages but Kw-evolved in P- in its place, no?
or somebody of us has the verified etymology of this name?

I already answered exactly that in one of my previous posts:


Regarding *p being lost in Celtic, we are only taking about the *p inherited from Proto-Indo-European. P-Celtic languages, like Gaulish, however, developed a secondary /p/ sound that corresponds with Proto-Indo-European *kw. If we consider the latter, then the /p/ in "Paris" can easily be Celtic. The best etymology, in my opinion, is from the Celtic word for "cauldron":

Old Irish "coire" (cauldron), Scottish Gaelic "coire" (kettle), Welsh "pair".

Furthermore, it should be noted that there also was a "Parisii" tribe living in northern England, which may be related with the Gaulish Parisii.

I do, however, agree with your assessment regarding western Iberia, since the Celtiberian language is known to have lost the PIE *p (it is, after all, Celtic) while at the same time also retaining (just like ancient Irish), PIE *kw.

You also mentioned the Lusitanian language, which fits the description of having retained the *p sound of Proto-Indo-European.

MOESAN
14-02-12, 19:06
[QUOTE=Taranis;391601]

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by MOESAN http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=391582#post391582)
I add for the topic in general that I don't see why we try to link the name Parisi to a pre-celtic tribe: P- was lost in typical celtic languages but Kw-evolved in P- in its place, no?
or somebody of us has the verified etymology of this name?



I already answered exactly that in one of my previous posts:

Sorry, I had red it and forgotten (my "grand age"!)

Yetos
14-02-12, 20:45
spongetaro was talking about the city of Paris, which is clearly named after the Parisii tribe. :smile:

and I said it might not be a Tribe the Parisii but a social class,
compare Greek Paroikoi, Paries,

or an outer or inner name of those who live in mud (Vari)

MOESAN
16-02-12, 16:48
and I said it might not be a Tribe the Parisii but a social class,
compare Greek Paroikoi, Paries,

or an outer or inner name of those who live in mud (Vari)

It is hard to me to see an evident link for /pari/ and /vari/ - only bets at this stage of discussion - and about "social class" I do not see why it could apply only for the Parisi? - what is the meaning of the gressian words 'paroikoi', 'paries' ?
I prefer consider this name as an ordinary tribe name, cognate with the Yorkshire Parisi's one...