PDA

View Full Version : Etymologies



8mike
28-02-12, 23:40
Hello everyone, i created this thread because i am interested in languages and i'd like to post here some words i'd like to know and study the etymology of. I'd also like to post etymologies that i am working on here.

Let me introduce myself first
First of all i am interested in Albanian language (i saw the other thread but most of those are messed up by nationalists and other stuff, i want to keep this thread clean with regular etymologies) since i was born in Albania, but i live in Italy since i was a child. Thanks to my parents i know the language quite well :)

I have found the etymology of a lot of albanian words in Orel's pubblication (also i'd like to know if i can find any PDF of that book anywhere).

The etymology i want to know is of the word "dore - duar - duart" which means "hand - hands".
Orel's etymology is : From proto-albanian *dasra, from pre albanian from pre-Albanian *ǵʰēsreh₂, from protoIE *ǵʰēsr₂
I found similarities with Ancient Egyptian word d-r-t which means hand

can this two words have anything in common?

more etymologies to follow

Taranis
29-02-12, 00:09
Hi 8mike,

Orel's etymology is almost certainly correct. A cognate in another IE language would be Greek "cheiros".

In early Albanian the sounds *g´and *g´h from PIE became *ð in early Albanian, and were shifted to *d under certain conditions. For a similar case, compare Greek "gomphos" vs. Albanian "dhëmb", or German "gelb" vs. Albanian "dhelpër".

8mike
29-02-12, 14:47
no ok, i have nothing against Orel's etymology and i understood the evolution of the sound g in dh, because another example is gea -> dhe (earth). But my curiosity is the relation with the Ancient Egyptian word d-r-t which means hand. How can it be so similar?

Taranis
29-02-12, 15:03
no ok, i have nothing against Orel's etymology and i understood the evolution of the sound g in dh, because another example is gea -> dhe (earth). But my curiosity is the relation with the Ancient Egyptian word d-r-t which means hand. How can it be so similar?

Sometimes, words in unrelated languages just happen to be coincidentially similar. If you take a large enough sample, there will be similar-sounding words in unrelated languages which just happen to have a similar meaning. A typical example would be English "name" and Japanese "namae", which actually happens to mean exactly the same.

On a purely theoretical level, the alternative would be a borrowing, or a genetic relationship (ie, that words in two languages are actually descended from a common source). In the case of Albanian and Old Egyptian both seem obviously out of question.

8mike
29-02-12, 15:46
ok so i can relate this to the next word: the Nahuatl word "teotl" meaning God, has no relation with Theo or Deus?
also the Nahuatl word "atl" meaning water has no relation with mythological figures of Atlas (related to the hydronim of the Atlantic ocean) or the word "thalassa"?

Taranis
29-02-12, 16:11
ok so i can relate this to the next word: the Nahuatl word "teotl" meaning God, has no relation with Theo or Deus?
also the Nahuatl word "atl" meaning water has no relation with mythological figures of Atlas (related to the hydronim of the Atlantic ocean) or the word "thalassa"?

No, absolutely not. Why should there be a relationship? Nahuatl was the language of the Aztec empire, which was spoken before the Spanish arrived in the New World. Apart from the Vikings around the year 1000 (which was really just a footnote in history), there was no contact between the native americans and the old world for thousands of years, and Nahuatl and Greek are completely unrelated languages.

On the other hand, would you recognize that the following words have a common source:

Old Irish "gerid" ("to heat")
English "warm"
Albanian "zjarr" ("fire")
Greek "thermos" ("hot")

8mike
29-02-12, 16:21
how about the word "Greek", it should come from Hesiod's "Catalogue of Women" where there is the mythical figure of Graikos. Is there any relation with Albanian "grua" "gra" meaning "woman"?

Also, how do you create the radix of the words you wrote? I mean what letters do you choose to create the Proto Indo European word?

Old Irish "gerid" ("to heat")
English "warm"
Albanian "zjarr" ("fire")
Greek "thermos" ("hot")

Also thanks for the response :)

PaschalisB
29-02-12, 17:47
how about the word "Greek", it should come from Hesiod's "Catalogue of Women" where there is the mythical figure of Graikos. Is there any relation with Albanian "grua" "gra" meaning "woman"?


Maybe we can relate the albanian word "grua"/"gra" with the ancient greek word "γραία"(graea) meaning "old woman"

8mike
29-02-12, 18:13
that is interesting. if the original meaning of the word is "old woman" as you suggest, could it be possible to make a connection to the word "gri" meaning "gray" (it should be of Germanic origin but it can be found in albanian too)?

But also how can you prove that the meaning of simply "woman" became "old woman" later and not the contrary?
thanks for the answers guys :)

PaschalisB
29-02-12, 19:01
that is interesting. if the original meaning of the word is "old woman" as you suggest, could it be possible to make a connection to the word "gri" meaning "gray" (it should be of Germanic origin but it can be found in albanian too)?

But also how can you prove that the meaning of simply "woman" became "old woman" later and not the contrary?
thanks for the answers guys :)

Well, the word "woman" in ancient greek is "γυνή"("gynee") which is the same root as the english "queen", the swedish "kvinna" (woman) or the sanksrit "jani"

8mike
01-03-12, 18:52
well, that doesn't necessarly mean that no other dialectal form of "woman" existed. For example in albanian we use both "cupa" "cika" and "vajze" to say "girl"

Another word i'd like to put in your attention is Triton, the mythical creature.
from wikipedia: Triton's special attribute was a twisted shell, on which he blew like a trumpet to calm or raise the waves. Its sound was so terrible, that when loudly blown, it put the giants to flight, who imagined it to be the roar of a dark wild beast.

is it possibly any relation with albanian word "thras" "thret" "thrit" meaning "to call" or "to scream"?

PaschalisB
01-03-12, 22:17
well, that doesn't necessarly mean that no other dialectal form of "woman" existed. For example in albanian we use both "cupa" "cika" and "vajze" to say "girl"

Another word i'd like to put in your attention is Triton, the mythical creature.
from wikipedia: Triton's special attribute was a twisted shell, on which he blew like a trumpet to calm or raise the waves. Its sound was so terrible, that when loudly blown, it put the giants to flight, who imagined it to be the roar of a dark wild beast.

is it possibly any relation with albanian word "thras" "thret" "thrit" meaning "to call" or "to scream"?

I don't think so, but the word could be related to the old irish "triath" ("sea") since Triton was a sea deity

Endri
01-03-12, 22:23
well, that doesn't necessarly mean that no other dialectal form of "woman" existed. For example in albanian we use both "cupa" "cika" and "vajze" to say "girl"

Another word i'd like to put in your attention is Triton, the mythical creature.
from wikipedia: Triton's special attribute was a twisted shell, on which he blew like a trumpet to calm or raise the waves. Its sound was so terrible, that when loudly blown, it put the giants to flight, who imagined it to be the roar of a dark wild beast.

is it possibly any relation with albanian word "thras" "thret" "thrit" meaning "to call" or "to scream"?

-Just an orthography fix: thërras*, thërret*, thërrit* which are the same verb in different conjugations, but i do not think it comes from "Triton" or any other mythical creature or mythical creature related.

And you can add "cucë" to the list of words how you can say "girl" in Albanian.

8mike
01-03-12, 22:48
-Just an orthography fix: thërras*, thërret*, thërrit* which are the same verb in different conjugations, but i do not think it comes from "Triton" or any other mythical creature or mythical creature related.

And you can add "cucë" to the list of words how you can say "girl" in Albanian.
i don't say it comes from Triton, i am saying that the word Triton could have relation with it, maybe same radix. Is there any known etymology for "thras"?

8mike
01-03-12, 22:50
another word: Latin "murus" meaning "wall" which generated the albanian form "mur". may this word have generated also the verb "mburo" (geg form "muro") meaning "to defend" or "to cover" in albanian?

8mike
06-03-12, 21:52
in the meantime i'd like to put another word here that i recently found: the sumerian word "temen" mens foundation. I found similarity with albanian "themel" also meaning foundations. Sumerian borrowing?

Endri
06-03-12, 22:42
Does anyone here have any idea of the etymology of the word "Shkja"? The northern Albanians call the Slavs, mostly Serbs "Shkja".

8mike
07-03-12, 01:51
Yes, and I've been trying to elaborate that there is no linguistic connection, and why, from the archaeological context, it would not be expected in the slightest, either.

I really do wonder though: what is it about the Albanians that people come up with such peculiar speculation about connecting them with all kinds of other people? To briefly mention the various offbeat 'theories' that I've seen on this forum: the Basques, Berbers, Etruscans, "Pelasgians" and now Sardinians. Why is it so hard to accept that the Albanians are who they are, and that in the course of history, they interacted with the people they interacted (ancient Greeks, Dacians, Romans, East Germanic peoples, Slavs, Turks?), and with nobody else? Why all this wild speculation?

what about sumerian :D ? the word "temen" means foundation and it is very similar to albanian "themel" which mean foundation.

Diurpaneus
08-03-12, 00:20
Does anyone here have any idea of the etymology of the word "Shkja"? The northern Albanians call the Slavs, mostly Serbs "Shkja".
It is related to Old Romanian "schiau" meaning slav.
It's from Latin "sclavus"; also Italian "schiavo" - slave.
You will find more Albanian similar words in the second link.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sclavus

http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_en/29535/28/Slavs_Marginalia_EN.pdf

MOESAN
09-03-12, 17:32
another word: Latin "murus" meaning "wall" which generated the albanian form "mur". may this word have generated also the verb "mburo" (geg form "muro") meaning "to defend" or "to cover" in albanian?

just a detail that surely does not break the link you put between latin and albanian: 'mur-us' should be from celtic origin -

Hal Fao
09-03-12, 18:37
Does anyone here have any idea of the etymology of the word "Shkja"? The northern Albanians call the Slavs, mostly Serbs "Shkja".
It's the Greek σκιά (ghost).

PaschalisB
09-03-12, 19:02
what about sumerian :D ? the word "temen" means foundation and it is very similar to albanian "themel" which mean foundation.

The greek word for foundation is "themelio" from ancient greek "themelios".

gerritmuk
12-03-12, 20:31
very usefull message bravo )

Yetos
16-03-12, 01:37
It's the Greek σκιά (ghost).

no there is simmilar Greek word for Scythians

read bellow

Yetos
16-03-12, 01:41
I wonder the word Σκωλοτοι (Skoloti) what it means and the root?

the Word is from Herodotus, a description for Scythians,
may I remind you that Makedonians call the Scythians of Persian king as Σκυδρα (Skudra)

Hal Fao
16-03-12, 08:54
no there is simmilar Greek word for Scythians
read bellow
Do you mean that Gheg Shkiά relates with Σκωλοτοι or Σκυδρα or scythian ?!

Yetos
16-03-12, 10:37
Do you mean that Gheg Shkiά relates with Σκωλοτοι or Σκυδρα or scythian ?!

not exactly,

but i find it more possible than σκια (shadow) which is from ισκιος

Hal Fao
16-03-12, 22:19
I wonder the word Σκωλοτοι (Skoloti) what it means and the root?

the Word is from Herodotus, a description for Scythians,
may I remind you that Makedonians call the Scythians of Persian king as Σκυδρα (Skudra)
I'm unable to find any similar word with Σκωλοτοι. As for Σκυδρα, may be it cognates with Albanian skuthra which is the plural of skuth (insidious). There is another Albanian word, skutë "a place to be hiden in"; "a corner"(mostly a cave) and skutar (the man who stays in skute).

Yetos
17-03-12, 00:54
I'm unable to find any similar word with Σκωλοτοι. As for Σκυδρα, may be it cognates with Albanian skuthra which is the plural of skuth (insidious). There is another Albanian word, skutë "a place to be hiden in"; "a corner"(mostly a cave) and skutar (the man who stays in skute).

no I dont think so, the Δ is probably a shift of θ σκυδρα-σκυθες
I think the word you describe skuth might cognates with scary in English,

there is a demotic-common translation of ισκιος(shadow) but mostly with compound words like αλαφρο-ισκιοτος (light not heavy shadow, = ghost) cause Makedonian hat sκιαδιον surely did not mean ghost :laughing:
Although there is a virb in modern Greek Σκιαχτηκα (Past form, I got afraid) and noun like επι-σκιασις, -zω (I put my shadow on you, I hide the sun to you) but it is used as idiom of the games that a shadow can play, words like Σκιαχτρο but it is modern Greek,




but I would like taranis help about Σκωλοτοι and his knowledge of laws

8mike
19-03-12, 00:25
does anybody know if there is any relation between PIE *kap(grab) and ProtoSemitic *kapp (hand)?