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View Full Version : Norman haplogroup I1, SNP M253+( the most neglected SNP )



onslo
03-03-12, 12:27
I1 is indigenous to Europe , the direct descendant of Cro-Magnon. Germanic branch of R1b1b2 moved north and mixed with indigenous I1 . Hybrid Germanic tribe retained highest percentage if I Haplogroup. Germanic language assimilated large part of I1? Is SNP M253+, with all other following SNPs being - negative indicative of northern France being a root of I1 haplogroup?

sparkey
15-03-12, 20:23
I1 is indigenous to Europe , the direct descendant of Cro-Magnon. Germanic branch of R1b1b2 moved north and mixed with indigenous I1 .

Don't forget R1a as a component in this equation, as it was clearly introduced via Corded Ware, before R1b-U106 is thought to have arrived.

The best Germanic Y-DNA recipe I've come up with looks like: Paleolithic hunter-gatherers (I1+I2a2a) + Neolithic Corded Ware early IE types (R1a) + Bronze Age Centum IE types (R1b-U106) = Germanic peoples.


Is SNP M253+, with all other following SNPs being - negative indicative of northern France being a root of I1 haplogroup?

You didn't really test "all other following SNPs," only the ones that your testing company provided you with. Some others are known.

Anyway, I already answered this question here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25106-Genetic-make-up-of-Europe&p=392443&viewfull=1#post392443). Quoting myself:


Most I1 L22- are Z58+, that's a more useful marker to test than a lot of those that you list. Z58+ is typical of West Germanic peoples (English people, Dutch people, etc.) and usually indicates Anglo-Saxon ancestry if you're an American unaware of your deep ancestry.

But it's also possible that you're L22- Z58-, and you're the rare Celtic type of I1 (I1*-AS4) or L22- Z58- Z68+, which is usually tied to East Germanic peoples, like the Goths. There are also some more rare possibilities. In short, we can't guarantee what your background is just by that data, other than "probably not Viking." Most Viking I1 would have been L22+.

onslo
21-09-12, 11:19
My Igenea testing co.provided me with : P259- P15- P109- M72- M69- M286- M227- M21- M201- L91- L42- L30- L22- L211- L141- L140- L14- L13-.There you are.

sparkey
21-09-12, 17:06
My Igenea testing co.provided me with :p109-;M72-;M69-;M227-;L42-;L22-;L21-;L141-;L140-;L14-;L13-;There you are.

You went with iGENEA; there's your problem. See if you can transfer to FTDNA or get iGENEA to test you for more specific SNPs like Z58 if you want to get serious about narrowing it down more.

onslo
22-09-12, 04:56
My M21- is negative.I1a is only possible if M21is + positive .I1a3 (S244/Z58) test you are suggesting is useless.So, IGenea did a very good job. I1* is Pre-Germanic (Nordic) and as such - Viking (Indigenous)."The Gutes (Gotlanders) themselves had oral traditions of a mass migration towards southern Europe, recorded in the Gutasaga. If the facts are related, this would be a unique case of a tradition that endured for more than a thousand years and that actually pre-dates most of the major splits in the Germanic language family."According to Jordanes’ Getica, written in the mid-6th century, the earliest migrating Goths sailed from Scandza (Scandinavia) under King Berig[16] in three ships.(wikipedia.org)

sparkey
24-09-12, 17:27
My M21- is negative.I1a is only possible if M21is + positive .I1a3 (S244/Z58) test you are suggesting is useless.So, IGenea did a very good job.

You must be mixing nomenclatures, because Z58 is not downstream of M21. See ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html), which places M21 as private. Most I1 who are L22- M227- are Z58+, so I'm guessing that you probably are (but it's not 100% sure, of course).


I1* is Pre-Germanic (Nordic) and as such - Viking (Indigenous).

Make sure to be precise with your terms and time periods. "I1*" means truly no further subclade known, and is, according to Nordtvedt's tree, currently limited to the rare I1*-1212 branches. Even the wacky Welsh/Pomeranian branch isn't I1* anymore. You may mean I1 as a whole... which makes sense, in a way, to call "pre-Germanic" and even "Nordic pre-Germanic." I think it's possibly a leftover from something like Ertebølle Culture. But the word "Viking" doesn't make sense in this context. "Viking" is an occupational term more than an ethnic term, and it's not an applicable term for pre-Germanic cultures at all... Vikings came much later. Also, they wouldn't have tended to carry I1*... they probably mostly carried I1-L22, as far as I1 goes.

piero sinclair
24-11-12, 11:19
I'm trying to establish the probabilities re the Haplogroups of the Norman Vikings. They got there from Denmark and possibly some from Norway in the 9th century. The R1b U106 people were expanding from Netherland/North Germany from the 5th century. I've noticed that on the map of the distribution of these people Denmark seems to be strongly delineated as R1b on the West of the narrow peninsula and other haplogroups to the East (presumably predominantly I1). Such a clear demarcation suggests that, (given I1 were settled in Denmark well before the U106 migrations) the U106 haplogroup is pretty recent to Denmark. What I'd like to know is would this migration up the West coast of Denmark be early enough for the Danes who invaded Normandy in the 9th century to have had a strong U106 component?
Hoping someone has some idea out there.
Cheers
Piero

MOESAN
24-11-12, 14:12
I'm trying to establish the probabilities re the Haplogroups of the Norman Vikings. They got there from Denmark and possibly some from Norway in the 9th century. The R1b U106 people were expanding from Netherland/North Germany from the 5th century. I've noticed that on the map of the distribution of these people Denmark seems to be strongly delineated as R1b on the West of the narrow peninsula and other haplogroups to the East (presumably predominantly I1). Such a clear demarcation suggests that, (given I1 were settled in Denmark well before the U106 migrations) the U106 haplogroup is pretty recent to Denmark. What I'd like to know is would this migration up the West coast of Denmark be early enough for the Danes who invaded Normandy in the 9th century to have had a strong U106 component?
Hoping someone has some idea out there.
Cheers
Piero

I have only a very "light samples" survey %s:
North-Jutland: Y-R1b (all): 45,2% (U106: 23,8% within R1b: 52,6%)
West-Jutland: Y-R1b (all): 31,6% (U106: 21,0% within R1b: 44,4%)
East-Jutland: Y-R1b (all): 23,0% (U106: 17,6% within R1b: 60,0%)
South-Jutland: Y-R1b (all): 31,7% (U106: 13,6% within R1b: 37,5%)
the same surveys (I didn't note the name) said the isles (East) had less than 33% of Y-R1b
East Jutland is (if I'm right, because they didn't give precise localisation) is not the shorter way to Scandinavia, so the possible U106 invaders (maybe with or after some L21S145) that passed into Scandinavia passed rather through South (say: South-East) Jutland, and the reverse movement surely enough took the same way: it should be there the less total R1b and the more internal U106, and IT SEAMS being the case for East Jutland -
all that is very nice, but I think small samples can push us to do unreliable theorie samples are ridiculously small
and even logic could be contradicted by facts:
the high level of R1b in N-Jutland seams checking the same high level in South Norway, (Aust-Agder) and suggests rather a maritime way for some R1b introductions
at a general point, I think U106 is not so new in N-Europe and Scandinavia (and the same for L21) and surely, yes, among Danish Vikings it was already present

piero sinclair
29-11-12, 18:12
Thanks very much Moesan, sorry for may delayed reply. That was useful. I hadn't thought of a sea route, and it would be interesting if we could ever find out if U106 was more coastal in Denmark. Perhaps they were originally Friesans.
Cheers, Piero

Pax Augusta
23-06-14, 19:33
I1 is indigenous to Europe , the direct descendant of Cro-Magnon. Germanic branch of R1b1b2 moved north and mixed with indigenous I1 . Hybrid Germanic tribe retained highest percentage if I Haplogroup. Germanic language assimilated large part of I1? Is SNP M253+, with all other following SNPs being - negative indicative of northern France being a root of I1 haplogroup?

Why is the the most neglected SNP?

Sonnenburg
15-11-14, 07:16
Nice Sparkey! What do you know about 'American' ? What do you know how I became 'American'?
european? So, somebody from Africa of yesterday, and Turkey, and Russia - are 'Europeans' ? We are discussing genetics here, original definition, where we come from, right? So much is said about Germans: who, where, what Y-DNA is 'Germanic'? My point is that R ( R1a or R1b ) are tribe that invaded-came to Europe, I1 - is local (hunters - gatherers) . They where 'in conflict ' with newcomer tribe R. So, 'Germanic' - how it ended up to be called- has to be distinguished from other proportional mixtures of R and ? by stronger that regular I1 influence. This why I1 - is 'Scandinavian' and I1a which all future mutations is 'German'.
why that particular R1b 'clicked' which I1 and I1 developes I1a mutation Is good question? Women ? Leadership of I1 ?
Z 140 went all the way to the modern west Austrian mountains. Why ? This what we should discuss and not assume that 'American' is stupid and ignorant of 'deep ancestry'. 😜🇩🇪🇺🇸

Hauteville
28-11-14, 17:44
What kind of haplogroups normans and swabians carried in south Italy?I1, I-M223 and R1b U106?

redeyednewt
29-03-16, 17:18
What kind of haplogroups normans and swabians carried in south Italy?I1, I-M223 and R1b U106?
I'm wondering the same thing?

Anglo-Celt
02-08-16, 06:48
Hi! I registered because I was researching a little into my own Y- DNA ( I1) and I had some questions.
My Y- DNA is given at some greater length by Promethease and here are the markers I have: I1 M170+ P109- P259- P30+ P38+ M307+ P203+ M253+ M258+ M21- M227- L22- S142-. Would that be consistent with an Anglo- Saxon type, or would it be more likely to be Danish? My surname is English originally, but I can only get back to my 3X great grandfather. Anyhow, any insights would be greatly appreciated..

sparkey
02-08-16, 19:14
Hi! I registered because I was researching a little into my own Y- DNA ( I1) and I had some questions.
My Y- DNA is given at some greater length by Promethease and here are the markers I have: I1 M170+ P109- P259- P30+ P38+ M307+ P203+ M253+ M258+ M21- M227- L22- S142-. Would that be consistent with an Anglo- Saxon type, or would it be more likely to be Danish? My surname is English originally, but I can only get back to my 3X great grandfather. Anyhow, any insights would be greatly appreciated..

The general pattern is I1-L22 = more North Germanic, I1-Z58 = more West Germanic, I1-Z63 = more East Germanic, with all of them having overlap every which way. A person of English descent without L22, like you, is most likely of Anglo-Saxon descent, although there is the rare Scandinavian-looking or even Celtic-looking clade outside of L22, so we can't be certain yet.

Anglo-Celt
02-08-16, 20:23
The general pattern is I1-L22 = more North Germanic, I1-Z58 = more West Germanic, I1-Z63 = more East Germanic, with all of them having overlap every which way. A person of English descent without L22, like you, is most likely of Anglo-Saxon descent, although there is the rare Scandinavian-looking or even Celtic-looking clade outside of L22, so we can't be certain yet.
Okay, thanks. :) I guess until there is further information, I'll just consider myself of the Anglo- Saxon type.

mwauthy
11-12-16, 18:50
It would have been interesting to know the haplogroup of Rollos grandson and great grandson but that fell through. France needs to lift their ban on dna testing. Im really curious about the I1 subclades that settled in Normandy. Im also wondering approximately how many northmen settled there to affect the gene pool. Was it hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands?

leperrine
15-03-17, 20:15
My Direct paternal Lineage is French/Norman. I'm a direct male descendant of Daniel "The Huguenot" Perrin. He was one of the first permanent European settlers in New York in 1665. One of my Ancestors was a Knight that rode with William the Conqueror to take the throne. Daniel came to Newyork from the Isle of Jersey later settling in New Jersey.

My Y-DNA Haplogroup is J2a1h.

It will be interesting to see what Haplogroups show up for Normans.

Steven T Richards
09-09-17, 17:13
Hi Anglo Celt - I have exactly the same Y SNP markers you quote below (both +ve and -ve) I'm left wondering where we fit in?
Hi! I registered because I was researching a little into my own Y- DNA ( I1) and I had some questions.
My Y- DNA is given at some greater length by Promethease and here are the markers I have: I1 M170+ P109- P259- P30+ P38+ M307+ P203+ M253+ M258+ M21- M227- L22- S142-. Would that be consistent with an Anglo- Saxon type, or would it be more likely to be Danish? My surname is English originally, but I can only get back to my 3X great grandfather. Anyhow, any insights would be greatly appreciated..

Jagtig
24-01-18, 15:53
What kind of haplogroups normans and swabians carried in south Italy?I1, I-M223 and R1b U106?

I am L-22, and everything points to Lombard from Piemonte about 1050. "Everything" equals physical type, place of origin (near to a town settled by Lombards), and general history of that era. I would say that the "Swabians" you mention were actually "Lombards," because the actual movement of Swabians was reverse; Italian children were taken to Switzerland, adopted by Swiss-German farmers and became "Swabian" in the succeeding years. Lombards, on the other hand, were very mobile, tended to military occupations, and were welcomed by the Norman conquerors of Sicily as allies. In Italy, I've been called "French," and in fact, Lombards spoke Gallo-Italic, and so the confusion might have arisen there. It so happens that the Lombards fought the Franks, or French heavy cavalary, at an early date, and not unexpectedly ended up with the loser's lot, but encouraged to settle, anyway, because they were a Germanic race like the Franks, and so useful in their plans. I would imagine that as a result you might find Frankish nobility (land-owners) and Lombard farmer-soldiers in an extended area across the Piemonte and Val di Po, to this day. The Germanic tribes were said to have worked together, for the most part, intermarrying and deciding things by armed conflict only when necessary. The Lombards were an especially militant tribe, one that migrated into the Roman Empire, fought the Byzantines and Franks, and then were ultimately settled on the land by a Gothic emperor. I would suspect that a number of Medieval castles might be attributed to Lombard industry, though I'm not sure which ones.

Angela
24-01-18, 17:51
The history of medieval castles in Italy, even early medieval, is very well known in Italy. You don't need to guess.

I also think you're getting your history, i.e. historical periods confused.

Yes, the Lombards invaded Italy after the fall of the Roman Empire, preceded by the Goths. However, as recent papers have started to show, the Lombards were a pretty heterogeneous group. Moreover, they were a German speaking group, and when they abandoned it, they adopted Italian dialects, not French dialects, by and large.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34923-Ancient-Lombard-DNA?highlight=Lombards

The Franks did extend their hegemony over big parts of Italy, which might have produced a little gene flow, but it would be minor.

As for being called "French", Piemonte's borders have changed over the centuries. Parts of still speak a French derived language. Some of your ancestors may have come from those areas, which are primarily in or near the Aosta Valley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Proven%C3%A7al_language

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/FRP-Map4.png

It might be a good idea to research your particular towns of origin, particularly in Italian sources.

Y dna is another issue. It might be a sign of your direct paternal ancestor having been Lombard, or it might not. Your matches on it might give you some clues. Of course, that wouldn't make you a Lombard autosomally. That particular group is extinct.