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8mike
14-03-12, 01:08
hi, this is a request i have, does anybody know where to find the work of Albert Joris Van Windekens about Pelasgian language as a IndoEuropean language? The only word i found is for Athena as *atta (father) + *ena (feminine suffix).

Taranis
14-03-12, 01:29
I'm araid, I can't really help you there. What I can help you a bit with is with what Pelasgian is in general. My opinion is that it is wrong to think of Pelasgian as "one" language: "Pelasgian" basically refers to any non-Greek elements (regardless of wether they are Indo-European or non-Indo-European) that are found in Greek and that are impossible to derive from PIE via the 'native' sound laws of Greek. What I already hinted to is that these words do not come from one language, but far more probably several.

One particularly devious example of an ostensibly 'Pelasgian' word is the word "pyrgos" (πυργος - "tower"). This word is conceivably of Indo-European origin and has cognates in many other Indo-European branches, including Celtic (Old Irish "bríg", meaning "power" or "force"), Germanic (German "Burg"), Italic (Latin "fortis", "strong") and Indo-Iranic (Avestan "berez", "high", "great").

As we can see from Germanic *b- and Italic *f-, the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European form here is *bh-, which is commonly reflected into Greek as *ph- (*φ), for example in PIE *bher- ("to bear", "to carry"): English "to bear", Latin "ferre", Greek "phero" (if you compare with the forms above, you can see that this is perfectly regular). So, the form "pyrgos" cannot be native Greek and must be borrowed from elsewhere.

zanipolo
14-03-12, 02:13
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=pPjBSq2jCrcC&pg=PA52&dq=Windekens+le+pelasgique&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F-JfT56WMcz3mAWorbTuBw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Windekens%20le%20pelasgique&f=false

it was printed in french in 1952 - search for Windekens Le Pelasgique

Hal Fao
14-03-12, 08:37
http://www.pelasgians.org/contents.htm
I think there are some interesting ideas on this site.

Yetos
14-03-12, 10:58
I'm araid, I can't really help you there. What I can help you a bit with is with what Pelasgian is in general. My opinion is that it is wrong to think of Pelasgian as "one" language: "Pelasgian" basically refers to any non-Greek elements (regardless of wether they are Indo-European or non-Indo-European) that are found in Greek and that are impossible to derive from PIE via the 'native' sound laws of Greek. What I already hinted to is that these words do not come from one language, but far more probably several.

One particularly devious example of an ostensibly 'Pelasgian' word is the word "pyrgos" (πυργος - "tower"). This word is conceivably of Indo-European origin and has cognates in many other Indo-European branches, including Celtic (Old Irish "bríg", meaning "power" or "force"), Germanic (German "Burg"), Italic (Latin "fortis", "strong") and Indo-Iranic (Avestan "berez", "high", "great").

As we can see from Germanic *b- and Italic *f-, the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European form here is *bh-, which is commonly reflected into Greek as *ph- (*φ), for example in PIE *bher- ("to bear", "to carry"): English "to bear", Latin "ferre", Greek "phero" (if you compare with the forms above, you can see that this is perfectly regular). So, the form "pyrgos" cannot be native Greek and must be borrowed from elsewhere.

the word Πυργος is pure Greek and IE, simply is a composite word.
compare the word Paros and Pharos παρος φαρος,
Πυργος = πυρ +χεω (modern χυνω) and has nothing to do with Germanic -Burg
the prossesion of language gives Paros as the light house for army signals, information, navy roads, to Pharos (φαρος), then we have a kind of liquid fire, of burning oil through siphons at early roman -Byzantine times, (υγρον πυρ, σιφονοφορος δρομων,)
χεω as virb means i poor over, i spill, but as διαχεω means I spread,
example, sun spreads the light, ηλιος διαχεει φως,
so Pyrgos is the construction that poor or spread fire,
and has not the same root with -burg or tower,
tower has same root with Greek θωρω - τηρω etc meaning observe- watch,
while burg has same root with σπαργανο εσπαργανωνω wHich means to enclose, compare Thracian left words in Greek as ambri αμπρι (shelter),
-Burg means enclosed protection, or prison, and has same root with amber (Ηλεκτρον) the stuff that encloses things,(compare asparangus, each level encloses another and all enclose the soft part) it can also mean prison,
once I have reed that Bria Brissa meant fortification in Thracian, but I can not verify if it is true,
the word Pyrgos although it has similar meaning with tower and burg, yet the primary root-theme is totaly different. as also the word tower with Burg,
compare the word σπαργανον which is the Hymen that includes the vital organs (liver stomach etc) and εσπαργανωνις which is used to tie baby's (swaddling clothes)

many words that seems to be non IE are because they are composite

like
mettalon (μετα + ταλας, mit +talos (Celtic))
Θαλαττα (Θιν+αλς , dunes+sea) etc

just compare the linguistic laws
of Πυργος with fire +poor
Burg with amber
tower with θεωρω -θωρω (θέα = Vision, θεά = goddess) παρα-τηρη-τηριον virb παρατηρω

I think you might agree with me.


the word we find in Greek as fortification etc are κελλι (shell-cell) compare Δεκελλεια (Athens), Γουλα (upper makedonia), οχυρον- οχυρωσις, ending like -essa -issa (edessa larissa) and -unda, - intha (suda, tyrintha)


the case of islands Paros and Naxos and their colony in Dlamatia Paros later pharos, seems like the word par and pyr (παρ, πυρ) are the same and give extract Pharos (lighthouse)

Taranis
14-03-12, 13:29
http://www.pelasgians.org/contents.htm
I think there are some interesting ideas on this site.

Hal Fao, I'm giving you the same advice that I've already given others: stop posting links to charlatan websites.


the word Πυργος is pure Greek and IE, simply is a composite word.
compare the word Paros and Pharos παρος φαρος,
Πυργος = πυρ +χεω (modern χυνω) and has nothing to do with Germanic -Burg
the prossesion of language gives Paros as the light house for army signals, information, navy roads, to Pharos (φαρος), then we have a kind of liquid fire, of burning oil through siphons at early roman -Byzantine times, (υγρον πυρ, σιφονοφορος δρομων,)
χεω as virb means i poor over, i spill, but as διαχεω means I spread,
example, sun spreads the light, ηλιος διαχεει φως,
so Pyrgos is the construction that poor or spread fire,
and has not the same root with -burg or tower,
tower has same root with Greek θωρω - τηρω etc meaning observe- watch,
while burg has same root with σπαργανο εσπαργανωνω wHich means to enclose, compare Thracian left words in Greek as ambri αμπρι (shelter),
-Burg means enclosed protection, or prison, and has same root with amber (Ηλεκτρον) the stuff that encloses things,(compare asparangus, each level encloses another and all enclose the soft part) it can also mean prison,
once I have reed that Bria Brissa meant fortification in Thracian, but I can not verify if it is true,
the word Pyrgos although it has similar meaning with tower and burg, yet the primary root-theme is totaly different. as also the word tower with Burg,
compare the word σπαργανον which is the Hymen that includes the vital organs (liver stomach etc) and εσπαργανωνις which is used to tie baby's (swaddling clothes)

many words that seems to be non IE are because they are composite

like
mettalon (μετα + ταλας, mit +talos (Celtic))
Θαλαττα (Θιν+αλς , dunes+sea) etc

just compare the linguistic laws
of Πυργος with fire +poor
Burg with amber
tower with θεωρω -θωρω (θέα = Vision, θεά = goddess) παρα-τηρη-τηριον virb παρατηρω


I think you might agree with me.

No, I don't agree with you. What you're proposing has no regularity behind it. Especially, the word "amber" is not even Germanic, it is derived from Arabic via French! The original Germanic word for 'amber' was a cognate with the English word "glass". In his "Germania" (chapter 45), Tacitus renders the Proto-Germanic word for 'amber' as "glesum" into Latin.

You're permanently switching randomly between /t/ and /θ/ or between /p/ and /φ/ without any sort of regularity.

Regarding the word "Burg", if you look at the cognate in other IE branches, the common meaning is not "tower" or "castle", but "strong", "high" or "powerful".

I also disagree about the whole idea of "magically dismantling" words that clearly aren't any compound words.

Yetos
14-03-12, 18:40
No, I don't agree with you. What you're proposing has no regularity behind it. Especially, the word "amber" is not even Germanic, it is derived from Arabic via French! The original Germanic word for 'amber' was a cognate with the English word "glass". In his "Germania" (chapter 45), Tacitus renders the Proto-Germanic word for 'amber' as "glesum" into Latin.

You're permanently switching randomly between /t/ and /θ/ or between /p/ and /φ/ without any sort of regularity.

Regarding the word "Burg", if you look at the cognate in other IE branches, the common meaning is not "tower" or "castle", but "strong", "high" or "powerful".

I also disagree about the whole idea of "magically dismantling" words that clearly aren't any compound words.


t and θ , μετα and μεθ' , απο and αφ'
compare απο + οδευσις -> αφοδευσις, π->φ
επι + αμιλα-> εφαμιλος
κατω +οδος -> καθοδος
etc, ancient Greek laws do that,

Besides if you believe that Tower and Burg and Pyrgos have same root Theme then is your problem,

BUT YOU NOTICE THE WORD AMBER BUT NOT THE WORD AMBRI - CAMBER (cHAMBER(g)) ETC Words that mean Shelter enclose in a wider meaning,

about Composite words, There are so many, just find them, and we still use them as one,
compare economy (1 word) and oikonomia (2 words)
to compound words at least in Greek language to produce others is natural,
ρεμεμβερ τηατ Πυργος is a Neo-Greek word and not ancient Greco-aryan, which Might Means follows the Greek grammar laws, and not the Old IE,

it is not co-incidence that many mountain tops where exist fire signals from ancient times today are named pyrgi (mountain Pieria, mount Athos etc)

Taranis
14-03-12, 18:58
t and θ , μετα and μεθ' , απο and αφ'
compare απο + οδευσις -> αφοδευσις, π->φ
επι + αμιλα-> εφαμιλος
κατω +οδος -> καθοδος
etc, ancient Greek laws do that,

Besides if you believe that Tower and Burg and Pyrgos have same root Theme then is your problem,

BUT YOU NOTICE THE WORD AMBER BUT NOT THE WORD AMBRI - CAMBER (cHAMBER(g)) ETC Words that mean Shelter enclose in a wider meaning,

about Composite words, There are so many, just find them, and we still use them as one,
compare economy (1 word) and oikonomia (2 words)
to compound words at least in Greek language to produce others is natural,
ρεμεμβερ τηατ Πυργος is a Neo-Greek word and not ancient Greco-aryan, which Might Means follows the Greek grammar laws, and not the Old IE,

it is not co-incidence that many mountain tops where exist fire signals from ancient times today are named pyrgi (mountain Pieria, mount Athos etc)

You are wrong. I did not say that the words 'Tower' and 'Burg' and 'Pyrgos' have the same root. What I meant is that Greek "pyrgos" has the same root as Old Irish "bríg", German "Burg", Latin "fortis" and Avestan "berez". As you can see from the German *b- and Latin *f-, the reconstructed PIE form would begin with *bh- (if it was *b in PIE, it'd be reflected as *p into Germanic, and as *b into Latin). As I stated before, *bh- is reflected into Greek as *ph (φ).

What I honestly do not understand is that I have explained probably a thousand times how sound laws work, and that they completely regular (and if there's seemingly exceptions, they're defined by their own set of rules), yet you refuse to believe this.

Yetos
14-03-12, 19:21
You are wrong. I did not say that the words 'Tower' and 'Burg' and 'Pyrgos' have the same root. What I meant is that Greek "pyrgos" has the same root as Old Irish "bríg", German "Burg", Latin "fortis" and Avestan "berez". As you can see from the German *b- and Latin *f-, the reconstructed PIE form would begin with *bh- (if it was *b in PIE, it'd be reflected as *p into Germanic, and as *b into Latin). As I stated before, *bh- is reflected into Greek as *ph (φ).

What I honestly do not understand is that I have explained probably a thousand times how sound laws work, and that they completely regular (and if there's seemingly exceptions, they're defined by their own set of rules), yet you refuse to believe this.

I wonder cause a living example is the Pharia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharia

a Greek colony from Paros that change to Pharos to Pharia to Hvar,

π->φ over time
the word pharos has basic root-theme pyr (fire) and not φως either is φανος (fanos-phanos) a word that has basic root light φως

PS I am not refusing the IE laws, maybe I challenge them, But composite words are > 3 000 000 to some and >1 500 000 to others in Greek language, and that is its magic, although the main root-themes are a little bigger than any other IE due to older languages and many imports via conquerors, just think a word like ωτο-ρινο-λαρυγγο-λογος or like αντι-κατα-θλιψη
even words like κυνηγος compare hunt-er in Greek is composite κυων +ηγουμαι.

zanipolo
14-03-12, 21:36
You are wrong. I did not say that the words 'Tower' and 'Burg' and 'Pyrgos' have the same root. What I meant is that Greek "pyrgos" has the same root as Old Irish "bríg", German "Burg", Latin "fortis" and Avestan "berez". As you can see from the German *b- and Latin *f-, the reconstructed PIE form would begin with *bh- (if it was *b in PIE, it'd be reflected as *p into Germanic, and as *b into Latin). As I stated before, *bh- is reflected into Greek as *ph (φ).

What I honestly do not understand is that I have explained probably a thousand times how sound laws work, and that they completely regular (and if there's seemingly exceptions, they're defined by their own set of rules), yet you refuse to believe this.

In the question about the word tower, which is Torre in standard Italian. Where does Rocca come from which is what a tower is called in Northern italy, this Rocca was used to name the castle/tower in Chess ....Rook

Endri
15-03-12, 00:26
In the question about the word tower, which is Torre in standard Italian. Where does Rocca come from which is what a tower is called in Northern italy, this Rocca was used to name the castle/tower in Chess ....Rook

I do not know Latin but Rocca most likely is from the same Latin word which the Italian Roccia (Rock english) comes from or directly from Italian.

A castle is strong as a Rock or hard as a Rock or who knows but most likely smth among these lines...

Yetos
15-03-12, 05:37
8mike

with all the respect, I don't share that idea,
my personal believe is this

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26614-The-pelasgians&highlight=Pelasgians

MOESAN
21-03-12, 16:33
I do not know Latin but Rocca most likely is from the same Latin word which the Italian Roccia (Rock english) comes from or directly from Italian.

A castle is strong as a Rock or hard as a Rock or who knows but most likely smth among these lines...

if I well understood your dealing with the changing of meaning: if it is the case I agree with you: same in french and in breton 'roche' (fr) and 'roc'h' (br) are said also for 'forts', 'castles'...