L193?

Hello,

I was tested with GeneBase and am L21+. Genebase are now advising me to take the L193 test, but I can't seem to find much information on this subclade, except that it is linked to the Western Scottish Borders.

Anyone know what a positive LI93 result would indicate for ancestry(if anything)? I can't afford to waste money simply collecting subclades that don't tell me anything new.

Thanks in advance.

DavidCoutts said:

Hello,

I was tested with GeneBase and am L21+. Genebase are now advising me to take the L193 test, but I can't seem to find much information on this subclade, except that it is linked to the Western Scottish Borders.

Anyone know what a positive LI93 result would indicate for ancestry(if anything)? I can't afford to waste money simply collecting subclades that don't tell me anything new.

Thanks in advance.

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David,

I could be wrong on this but I think I recall L193 been mostly found in men with Scottish/scottish border surnames. According to FTDNA draft tree it's under L513. I would think your best option would be to order both. If you turn up L193- there is still a chance of been L513+

Here's a link to current draft tree: http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=56121532

From what I've seen L513 appears to be quite old and is found in both Britain and in Ireland.

Thank you for the reply. I was under the impression that L193 itself is much younger than L513; approx. 2,000 years.

DavidCoutts said:

Thank you for the reply. I was under the impression that L193 itself is much younger than L513; approx. 2,000 years.

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Well from doing some googling I see some calcuations on TMRCA for L513 as: 2692 ybp with the TMRCA for L193 been 1081 years. Of course the same page it gave TMRCA for L21 (all) at 4135 ybp

The advantage of testing for SNP's and testing positive is you narrow down the field considerably. Especially if a SNP appears to have a geographic concentration. This appears to be case with L193 and Lowland Scotland.

Very interesting. If I recall correctly, about a thousand years ago much of what is now Lowland Scotland was part of England; Edinburgh was founded by the Angles, if I'm not mistaken. I would imagine there would also have been raids by the "Scots" into Northumbria and by the Saxons and even Danes into "Scotland". Of course the very name Scotland would not have been in use at that time.

DavidCoutts said:

Very interesting. If I recall correctly, about a thousand years ago much of what is now Lowland Scotland was part of England; Edinburgh was founded by the Angles, if I'm not mistaken. I would imagine there would also have been raids by the "Scots" into Northumbria and by the Saxons and even Danes into "Scotland". Of course the very name Scotland would not have been in use at that time.

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Well that whole area is what's known to the welsh as "The Old North" it was Brythonic speaking before the arrival of angles. Edinburgh been site of a major location for the kingdom of Gododdin. Most of eastern lowlands thus fell to Angles over subsequent centuries until of course they were incoporated into Kingdom of Scotland from late 10th century onwards. (Edinburgh captured in 973 for example)


The western part remained Brythonic speaking until much later, generally this language is known as Cumbrian/Cumbric to distinguish it from Old Welsh. The Kingdom of Strathclyde. I imagine like in England L21 continued to maintain a large part of the male haplogroups in 6th-10th century Bernica/Lothian. In large parts of modern england that came under anglo-saxon control at time you still see L21 forming a plurality when it comes to haplogroups.




"Scot" of course is a latin word. The kingdom itself was Alba. Which interesting enough shares a root with the word that gives the name "Albion" (Britain).


What's now known as "Scots" was known as "Inglis" up until 15th century. The word "Scottis" was used for Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig). It's only about 1500 that this changes around and you get the modern usage of word "Scots" with term "Erse" (Irish) been used as an increasingly derogatory term for what had been the original "Scottis" (Scottish Gaelic)


The following map shows some of what's considered the growth of "Scots" from the South-East of modern Scotland from 9th century onwards. As you can see the Red area is core 9th century area. It's probable that the bulk of it's expansion in the lowlands up until the 15th century (Orange) was at expense of Cumbric which was still spoken up until the 13th century (give or take)

Greetings to you as well.

Dubhthach said:

Well that whole area is what's known to the welsh as "The Old North" it was Brythonic speaking before the arrival of angles.

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Here is another map of 'The Old North' (Yr Hen Ogledd) and a closeup of the area called 'Britain Between the Walls'. The maps are from Wiki.

Dubhthach said:

Well that whole area is what's known to the welsh as "The Old North" it was Brythonic speaking before the arrival of angles. Edinburgh been site of a major location for the kingdom of Gododdin. Most of eastern lowlands thus fell to Angles over subsequent centuries until of course they were incoporated into Kingdom of Scotland from late 10th century onwards. (Edinburgh captured in 973 for example)


The western part remained Brythonic speaking until much later, generally this language is known as Cumbrian/Cumbric to distinguish it from Old Welsh. The Kingdom of Strathclyde. I imagine like in England L21 continued to maintain a large part of the male haplogroups in 6th-10th century Bernica/Lothian. In large parts of modern england that came under anglo-saxon control at time you still see L21 forming a plurality when it comes to haplogroups.

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Dub, do you know much about the Brythonic Kingdoms in pre-Norman Wales? One of the things I read was that some of the Welsh royalty descended from the "Men of the North." The impression I had is the author thought this was Northern Britain.

The reason I ask is there are a number of L513+ people from Welsh/West Midlands and of course, the L193+ guys are L513+. Their split with the Welsh L513+ must have occurred 2000 years ago or possibly even more.

Could L513 have expanded/scattered from Northern Britain? A lot of L513 folks seem to emanate from old Norman Marches, however, that could just mean they were Old Britons on the perimeter of Anglo-Saxon territories.

Mikewww said:

Dub, do you know much about the Brythonic Kingdoms in pre-Norman Wales? One of the things I read was that some of the Welsh royalty descended from the "Men of the North." The impression I had is the author thought this was Northern Britain. The reason I ask is there are a number of L513+ people from Welsh/West Midlands and of course, the L193+ guys are L513+. Their split with the Welsh L513+ must have occurred 2000 years ago or possibly even more. Could L513 have expanded/scattered from Northern Britain? A lot of L513 folks seem to emanate from old Norman Marches, however, that could just mean they were Old Britons on the perimeter of Anglo-Saxon territories.

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Mike,I don't really know a huge amount about Sub-Roman Britain, other then bits I've read in different places, likewise for wider history of Wales. "Men of North" implies the area that Eochaidh mapped above. Some of the most important early Welsh poems/sagas are placed there. For example the stories that gave rise to "Merlin" in the medieval telling of "King Arthur" are directly connected to the "old north". So it would imply there was somewhat of a migration down into what we now consider Wales. At one stage of course the "West of Britain" was a contuinity of Brythonic speaking areas up until at least the 7th century. Even then after the fall of Chester and the area around Bristol (which would have spilt it into 3 areas) you would have had sea links.You mention about the "Norman marches" as far as I know all of these basically fall into modern boundaries of Wales. So I would imagine it was like "Norman marches" in Ireland. Where you had an "imported aristocracy" whereas most of the population were "indigenous". What sort of diversity do we see with regards to L513 or do we have enough samples at the moment?