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Degredado
23-04-12, 19:33
Just a little speculation on the possible origins of the Y-haplogroups present among the Spanish and Portuguese... My suggestions within each haplogroup are in a decreasing order of likeliness (in my view).



R1b (69% Sp, 56% Pt) - Alpine Celts/Lusitanians/Proto-Celtic Indo European speakers (R-S28 subclade); Roman settlers (also S28); Crusader settlers from England/Low Countries/Germany (S21 subclade) ?;

E1b1b (14% Pt, 7% Sp) - Neolithic settlers from North Africa; Moorish-berber Al-Andalus settlers; Greeks, or Carthaginian/Phoenicians, along the Mediterranean coast of Spain; Romans (Central Italy: 10% E1b1b);

J2 (Pt 9.5%, Sp 8%) - Near the Mediterranean coast: Greeks/Carthaginians/Romans; in the rest of the peninsula, Romans (central Italy: 19.5% J2);

I2a/I2b (Sp 5.5%, Pt 4.5%) - Paleolithic Cro-Magnons from Central/Southern Europe, native Iberians;

G2a (Pt 6.5%, Sp 3%) - Neolithic farmers/shepherds from beyond the Pyrenees; Romans (Central Italy: 8.5% G2a); Alans (G2a1 subclade);

T (Pt 2.5%, Sp 2.5%) - Neolithic Middle Eastern farmers;

J1 (Pt 3%, Sp 1.5%) - Arabic Al-Andalus settlers; older Jewish settlers; neolithic Middle Eastern settlers;

I1 (Pt 2%, Sp 1.5%) - Visigoths, Suevi, Vandals;

R1a (Sp 2%, Pt 1.5%) - Visigoths, Suevi, Vandals; Slavic slaves (saqaliba) in Al-Andalus ?



Thoughts? :petrified:

sparkey
23-04-12, 20:53
R1b (69% Sp, 56% Pt) - Alpine Celts/Lusitanians/Proto-Celtic Indo European speakers (R-S28 subclade); Roman settlers (also S28); Crusader settlers from England/Low Countries/Germany (S21 subclade) ?;

There's more Z196 than S28 and S21 in Iberia, so your analysis should definitely include them. See Maciamo's post here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29) about a good study on the different subclades within certain regions (although they didn't test Z196, unfortunately, so just consider it as being within the S116*, plus M153 and SRY2627, which are within it).


E1b1b (14% Pt, 7% Sp) - Neolithic settlers from North Africa; Moorish-berber Al-Andalus settlers; Greeks, or Carthaginian/Phoenicians, along the Mediterranean coast of Spain; Romans (Central Italy: 10% E1b1b);

Agreed; most is probably Neolithic, or maybe even Mesolithic. Percent Moorish influence is probably single digits.


I2a/I2b (Sp 5.5%, Pt 4.5%) - Paleolithic Cro-Magnons from Central/Southern Europe, native Iberians;

I2 is probably Cro-Magnon in the context of Europe as a whole, but many of the subclades that are there now did not show up until relatively recently (specifically I2a2a [old I2b1] is a mainly Germanic introduction, like I1). I2a1a is the truly ancient regional subclade, although its diversity is definitely higher around the Pyrenees than elsewhere in Iberia.

Knovas
23-04-12, 21:10
I also add the following:

Some T's could perfectly belong to old Jewish settlers since it seems significant among Sephardic Jews. But it would represent a minimal impact.

R1a...that's a more complex issue. The high percent among Pasiegos (who are indeed genetic isolate and cluster close to Basques) gives a clue that it could be definetely much older than expected. A portion of R1a in Europe could date from the Neolithic, and even the Mesolithic, so I bet that a non despreciable amount in Iberia came before the Visigoths, Suevi, etc. However, your analysis is valid for Galicia and Northern Portugal, and possibly in the rest of the Peninsula there's a mix of "old" and "new" R1a.

Ricardo
24-04-12, 02:49
Degredado, you are delayed 5 years !

The new SNP branches are here:
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root

You just must find the Y DNA SNPs and Y DNA STRs (haplotypes) matches or the nearest ethnic neighbor joining tree of each cluster.

The Portuguese Y DNA structure is different from the other Iberian peoples, that's because Portugal was a People with a National State and a National Language made 20 times stronger and more powerful in Brazil.

I am J1b M365 and we are a distinctive Portuguese cluster only found in Western Iberia. I associated J1b in Lusitania and the Minho with the Alans because we only cluster with Northern Iranian and Caspian haplotypes . We have been Fronteiros of the Portuguese Empire in Brazil. We have expanded a lot in the last 500 years !

Abra├žo