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L.D.Brousse
05-05-12, 16:06
Ok here is my lay out on SRY2627. First my Grandfather gave a DNA sample to the University of Arizona in 2002 before he died. I gave a sample in 2009. Since 2002 the only DNA matches I have is American Family members no matches outside the surname at all . My Haplotype is elusive as well being SRY2627 positive the FTDNA haplo matches are less than 0.1 at any location I do not think SRY2627 is Spanish or it would show a larger number. I do think SRY2627 was born on French soil. With lack of testing in France maybe the cause for such low numbers ?

sparkey
07-05-12, 17:30
My Haplotype is elusive as well being SRY2627 positive the FTDNA haplo matches are less than 0.1 at any location I do not think SRY2627 is Spanish or it would show a larger number. I do think SRY2627 was born on French soil. With lack of testing in France maybe the cause for such low numbers ?

You'll certainly find that British samples, and even German samples and some other places, outnumber French samples in the hobbyist databases. You might want to try searching some more balanced databases, like SMGF and YHRD.

As for SRY2627, it has highest frequency in Catalans (IIRC), but that doesn't mean that it's exclusive to them, or originated with them. I haven't looked closely at it, but I'd almost expect a higher diversity of SRY2627 in France. I suspect that the Gauls of antiquity had some SRY2627.

L.D.Brousse
07-05-12, 18:52
I guess if we could ever find out what SRY2627 mutated from that would help. As far as my markers go I know many people with tons of 12 marker non surname matches. And in 10 years I only have documented American surname cousins that match. I guess that is the part I don't really understand

sparkey
08-05-12, 18:27
I guess if we could ever find out what SRY2627 mutated from that would help.

It's a subclade of L176.2, which is split between SRY2627 and the interestingly Nordic S68, although the fact that S68 is the greater outlier within L176.2's parent (Z196) indicates to me that SRY2627 is closer to its origin. Z196 is the subject of a lot of discussion on this forum (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26828-Z196-needs-to-be-in-the-literature-alongside-its-brother-clades-U152-and-L21), and I don't know if there's a consensus yet on where it originated.

Gray Fox
04-06-12, 20:45
Here is the latest variance run by Mikewww

SRY2627 France______: Var=0.94 [Mixed 49] (N=15)
SRY2627 France______: Var=1.06 [Linear 36] (N=15)

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.86 [Mixed 49] (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_: Var=0.77 [Linear 36] (N=9)

SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.84 [Mixed 49] (N=63)
SRY2627 Isles_______: Var=0.80 [Linear 36] (N=63)

SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.80 [Mixed 49] (N=17)
SRY2627 Iberia______: Var=0.75 [Linear 36] (N=17)

L.D.Brousse
05-06-12, 14:03
What does the chart show to the untrained eye?

Gray Fox
05-06-12, 16:28
Its showing that France is the most variant and or oldest in this particular run. I think the Iberian SRY2627 was probably a late comer to Iberia, but when it did migrate there, it did it in mass. Whatever event or people that brought it there, is giving the impression that it originated there.. This doesn't seem to be the case.

This is Sam from dna-forums.. btw

L.D.Brousse
06-06-12, 13:59
Ok Sam so My family may have been a true native of France? Or at least SRY2627 was born in France

L.D.Brousse
21-06-12, 19:35
Sam What are your thoughts on origin? And age? Didier was way out from me on the genetic scale . And I think his family is from Northern France on that same note Vincent J. was from a near by area of SW France and we are much closer. I also think who ever did the family groups showed I had some connection with a Scottish Sry 2627. My view on this is our clan was dispersed early after SRY 2627 was born by an invading group. Or we came in waves from our place of origin Your Thoughts?

L.D.Brousse
24-06-12, 00:10
Sam I found this also note the bottom note is the same for the Pictones

SantonesThe Santones were a Gaulish peoples who occupied the area of Saintonage, western Gaul and whose primary settlement was at Mediolanum (modern-day Saintes), north of the river Gironde. These were the peoples whose territory was threatened by the migration of the Helvetii (58 BCE). In thanks for Julius Caesar's intervention against the Helvetii the Santones (a maritime peoples) provided Caesar with a fleet to aid in his Gallic campaigns of 56 BCE (just as their neighbours the Pictavii did). Little else is known about the Santones, which suggests that they were faithful allies of Rome and therefore not worthy of further mention.
The tribe's name may be related to the reconstructed proto-Celtic (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/refs.php) element: *sani- (different, which is related to the Old Irish sain). This suggests that either they were one of the first Celtic peoples to arrive in the region and thus were 'different' from the local populace, or they were part of the local population who survived Celtic colonization, were labelled with a Celtic name and eventually became Celticized.

zanipolo
24-06-12, 00:40
Sam I found this also note the bottom note is the same for the Pictones

Santones

The Santones were a Gaulish peoples who occupied the area of Saintonage, western Gaul and whose primary settlement was at Mediolanum (modern-day Saintes), north of the river Gironde. These were the peoples whose territory was threatened by the migration of the Helvetii (58 BCE). In thanks for Julius Caesar's intervention against the Helvetii the Santones (a maritime peoples) provided Caesar with a fleet to aid in his Gallic campaigns of 56 BCE (just as their neighbours the Pictavii did). Little else is known about the Santones, which suggests that they were faithful allies of Rome and therefore not worthy of further mention.
The tribe's name may be related to the reconstructed proto-Celtic (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/refs.php) element: *sani- (different, which is related to the Old Irish sain). This suggests that either they were one of the first Celtic peoples to arrive in the region and thus were 'different' from the local populace, or they were part of the local population who survived Celtic colonization, were labelled with a Celtic name and eventually became Celticized.

what are your numbers from ftdna...if you do not mind sharing

L.D.Brousse
24-06-12, 02:58
Y-DNA - Standard Y-STR Values







PANEL 1 (1-12)



Marker

DYS393

DYS390

DYS19**

DYS391

DYS385

DYS426

DYS388

DYS439

DYS389I

DYS392

DYS389II***



Value

13

23

14

11

11-12

12

12

11

14

13

31





PANEL 2 (13-25)



Marker

DYS458

DYS459

DYS455

DYS454

DYS447

DYS437

DYS448

DYS449

DYS464



Value

17

9-10

11

11

25

14

19

29

15-15-17-18








Marker
DYS460
Y-GATA-H4
YCAII
DYS456
DYS607
DYS576
DYS570
CDY
DYS442
DYS438


Value
11
11
19-23
15
14
17
15
38-39
12
12

L.D.Brousse
24-06-12, 03:03
My Deep Clade test shows I'm SRY2627+ as well as my cousins that have tested 67 markers. My family is documented as coming from Cognac. My Family surname was changed here in America in 1704 to Bruce from Brousse being French Huguenots they were not allowed in French colonies so they live in English areas. The funny thing is Bruce in Gaelic means from the thickets Brousse means from the forest or bush lands Brousse itself maybe a form of Celtic early Celts had no written language so maybe sound a likes after writing was introduced

fdelangre
19-01-14, 19:40
Its showing that France is the most variant and or oldest in this particular run. I think the Iberian SRY2627 was probably a late comer to Iberia, but when it did migrate there, it did it in mass. Whatever event or people that brought it there, is giving the impression that it originated there.. This doesn't seem to be the case.

This is Sam from dna-forums.. btw

Hello, I fully agree. Victar Mas in 2011 did an interesting map about SRY2627 : that subclade would have appeared in western France, and then split in different migration routes. A first one to the north, reaching the british isles. A second one to the South, along the french atlantic coast, reaching the basque country, northern spain. And a third one (probably smaller), which would be a backward move to the East, towards eastern France, Benelux, western Germany.

I'm SRY2627, French. My family name Delangre appeared in the 13th / 14th century when my far ancestor left the old gallic town of Langres (Haute-Marne, Champagn, Eastern-France) to settle in Burgundy, a neighbouring area.

My far ancestors pribably belonged to the powerful Lingones celtic tribe (Langres was their capital). That area was a main place of the Hallstattculture, as proven in particular by the discovery of the fabulous treasury of a celtic princess' grave in Vix.

Gray Fox
25-01-14, 07:48
Sam What are your thoughts on origin? And age? Didier was way out from me on the genetic scale . And I think his family is from Northern France on that same note Vincent J. was from a near by area of SW France and we are much closer. I also think who ever did the family groups showed I had some connection with a Scottish Sry 2627. My view on this is our clan was dispersed early after SRY 2627 was born by an invading group. Or we came in waves from our place of origin Your Thoughts?

Sorry its taken so long for a response! I'm usually the most frequent on anthrogenica.com

I honestly can't say at this point, it seems the theories are ever-changing. I do however believe that France was likely the origin point for the clade. I reiterate, that I only believe that it is likely the origin point. No one can say for sure, so I don't like claiming absolutes. Age estimates seem to be fairly stable for the ones listed on the wikipedia page...


"1,650 to 3,450 or 1,000 to 2,650 years BP" Of course as new evidence comes in and new parent and sibling clades are discovered, these estimates are going to change. But I think a median estimate of around 2500 to 2700 years BP is a pretty good one.


As far as a relation to a Scottish SRY2627. I can't give a firm a opinion one way or the other, but a lot of the SRY2627 in the Isles seems to have been recently introduced. Probably hitching a ride with the Normans. Also, I was thinking the Scottish clusters tended to belong to the DYS490=12 side? You have ten repeats at that value, so that may end up being a wild goose chase.


We, probably like the rest of our P312 brothers made good use of the numerous water ways in France and Iberia, spreading us far and wide. Thats one thing I do think is a for sure, that our forebearers were skilled at navigating these water ways and had an affinity with the water in general.

Gray Fox
25-01-14, 08:11
Hello, I fully agree. Victar Mas in 2011 did an interesting map about SRY2627 : that subclade would have appeared in western France, and then split in different migration routes. A first one to the north, reaching the british isles. A second one to the South, along the french atlantic coast, reaching the basque country, northern spain. And a third one (probably smaller), which would be a backward move to the East, towards eastern France, Benelux, western Germany.

I'm SRY2627, French. My family name Delangre appeared in the 13th / 14th century when my far ancestor left the old gallic town of Langres (Haute-Marne, Champagn, Eastern-France) to settle in Burgundy, a neighbouring area.

My far ancestors pribably belonged to the powerful Lingones celtic tribe (Langres was their capital). That area was a main place of the Hallstattculture, as proven in particular by the discovery of the fabulous treasury of a celtic princess' grave in Vix.


Hi, thanks! Yes, I do remember that map. Interesting take on it. British SRY2627 is open to interpretation. As I mentioned in the previous post, it seems most of the SRY2627 in Britain is probably due to recent migrations. Though there are surely ancient migrations as well.


My own particular line seems to be of Norman origins, in the sense that it hitched a ride with these invading peoples during or just after the conquest in 1066. I've been corresponding with a French/Breton SRY2627 man and we seem to be of the same line. Our tmrca, time to most recent common ancestor, places the split right around the time of the conquest. His family has been in the gallo speaking region of Brittany for as far back as he can trace.


My surname Isaac is most frequent in North Devon and I've pieced together a fairly decent paper trail linking my family back to original Isaac family of the region. I confirmed earlier last year through an individual who traced his Isaac family to Devon in the late 1800's, that we are cousins. I had him test for SRY2627 since he is more or less identical to our American group and he came back positive.


The Isaac family of the North Devon region has been there for quite some time dating back to before the 1200's when a coat of arms was granted to the family. It seems the family were of a junior manorial background with an estate in Buriate which was long ago alienated and subsequently donated to a university.

RWD
31-08-18, 17:44
Ok here is my lay out on SRY2627. First my Grandfather gave a DNA sample to the University of Arizona in 2002 before he died. I gave a sample in 2009. Since 2002 the only DNA matches I have is American Family members no matches outside the surname at all . My Haplotype is elusive as well being SRY2627 positive the FTDNA haplo matches are less than 0.1 at any location I do not think SRY2627 is Spanish or it would show a larger number. I do think SRY2627 was born on French soil. With lack of testing in France maybe the cause for such low numbers ?


I haven't seen the Bretons mentioned in these posts. The Bretons of Brittany are a Celtic group with their own language. During WWII they weren't co-operative with their French compatriots. They were a people who sought independence from France. The first king of all of Ireland, Brian Boru, was one of two Irishmen with the name Brian in the 900s. The name was derived from Brittany. I believe his mother was from Brittany. The name Brian is not known to have existed in Ireland before the 900s. Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau, of France, was of Huguenot descent through his mother and linked to the Bas-Poitou region of western France. Richard the Lionheart's mother was from the Vendee region of western France.

Celtic archaeological discoveries exist in northern Spain, western France and Switzerland in addition to well known discoveries in Britain, Ireland, Wales, and Scotland. Caesar wrote that "All Gaul was divided into three parts". The languages spoken were Gallic, Aquitanian and Belgic.