PDA

View Full Version : Where did R1b L51 originate?



spongetaro
06-06-12, 22:25
5652
This map shows high frequencies of this subclade in Southern/Central France as well as in Northern Italy.
R1b L51 seems absent from the Balkans and eastern Europe in general (except southern Poland).


Also, it is worth mentioning that R1b P312 main subclades(U152, M167,L21) have their highest variance in France.

So it looks like L51 formed in southern France (and not in eastern Europe) during the late Neolithic (Chasséen?) out of R1b L23 people who had arrived from Italy.


Richard Rocca explains it very well in this thread:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.0

EDIT: the point is that L51 and its successor L11 spread out of Western Europe to central Europe and not the other way round which makes them unrelated to the Bronze age central European cultures (Unetice, Urnfields etc..).

Mikewww
06-06-12, 23:01
5652
This map shows high frequencies of this subclade in Southern/Central France as well as in Northern Italy.
R1b L51 seems absent from the Balkans and eastern Europe in general (except southern Poland). ...

It is quite possible that R1b-L51 (predecessor to R1b-L11 and then P312 and U106) spread out SE France.

I would be cautious in concluding that L51 originated in France, though.

We have a very light scattering of L51* haplotypes and I don't think there are enough to do any kind of decent STR diversity analysis.

spongetaro
06-06-12, 23:13
It is quite possible that R1b-L51 (predecessor to R1b-L11 and then P312 and U106) spread out SE France.

I would be cautious in concluding that L51 originated in France, though.

We have a very light scattering of L51* haplotypes and I don't think there are enough to do any kind of decent STR diversity analysis.

I agree with you but we can at least suppose that R1b L51 never made a big journey in east/central Europe and is the first "western" subclade of R1b which push earlier the date of R1b arrival in western Europe.
With this and the recent find of R1b among Bell Beakers, a bronze age arrival seems more and more unlikely.

zanipolo
06-06-12, 23:33
5652
This map shows high frequencies of this subclade in Southern/Central France as well as in Northern Italy.
R1b L51 seems absent from the Balkans and eastern Europe in general (except southern Poland).


Also, it is worth mentioning that R1b P312 main subclades(U152, M167,L21) have their highest variance in France.

So it looks like L51 formed in southern France (and not in eastern Europe) during the late Neolithic (Chasséen?) out of R1b L23 people who had arrived from Italy.




Richard Rocca explains it very well in this thread:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.0

R1b1b2a1 L51 or does R.Rocca state Umbria and tuscany in Central Italy?

spongetaro
06-06-12, 23:45
R1b1b2a1 L51 or does R.Rocca state Umbria and tuscany in Central Italy?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

MOESAN
06-06-12, 23:59
OK that could do it
but the distribution is very spred - I don't have too confidence in low frequency old upstream HGs, they look as "archaïc words" in a dialectal map : very often it 's said the distribution of low %s old upstream HGs shows their origin place or the origin path they passed by to reach other regions richer of high %s younger downstream HGs - this scattered distribution of some honorable hotspots could be the result of a scarce population in some places maintained during sometime not giving way to new mutations of SNPs - the only serious place of demographic brutal grow seams to be between central France and the Alps - the "son" R-L11 has not completely the same distribution, by instance... - the surely rare R-L23 that gave birth to P-310=L51 could be arrived early in central-western Europe by North (South Baltic?) as by South (Donau, Mediterranea) - for me it is still hard to decide...

zanipolo
07-06-12, 00:00
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

I am saying that in the past year along with other members, he claim originally that it was ligurs/ligurian ( which where also in southern france in the ancient times), but lately he claimed central Italy due to data from umbria and tuscany.

WoF has many articles a lot on this y dna, but I favour the ligurian scenario because tribal similarities in the ancient times and that the southern french regional languages and the Northern Italian regional languages shared a common "paternal" language of ancient times which became provencal or some call it franco-provencal. basically a celtic-italic mix ( pre roman)..........this is my theory.

sparkey
07-06-12, 18:00
Actually one of the few true L51* samples we have is from Croatia, so I don't know where "absent from the Balkans" is coming from. We also have samples from the thinly-sampled countries of Turkey and Yemen. Combined with its presence in Poland and Hungary (which seems to be missing from the map as well), I think that there's a good case for an Eastern European or even Near Eastern origin for the L51 marker itself. That said, its expansion on Western Europe is notable, and understanding it is vital for understanding the origin of L11, which I've become increasingly convinced is European in origin.

MOESAN
08-06-12, 17:26
Actually one of the few true L51* samples we have is from Croatia, so I don't know where "absent from the Balkans" is coming from. We also have samples from the thinly-sampled countries of Turkey and Yemen. Combined with its presence in Poland and Hungary (which seems to be missing from the map as well), I think that there's a good case for an Eastern European or even Near Eastern origin for the L51 marker itself. That said, its expansion on Western Europe is notable, and understanding it is vital for understanding the origin of L11, which I've become increasingly convinced is European in origin.

THANKS, VERY GOOD INFORMATIONS FOR ME
sometimes I think I rush to quickly on interpretations on the basis of poor data (not our fault) -
the presence of old or intermediary upstream HGs is of importance when confirmed - what I find interesting is the "blooming" of sudden downstream HGs in countries far form the wells: it proves surely some "baby boom" of interest for History: the difficulty is the timing of these events to can link them to cultures and archeology - but the rarefaction of a family of SNPs can explain some oddities: invasions by tribes of other HGs can produce it sometimes, not?
the position of central Europe is conflicting: some %s can be due to return from West as well as to a rest place on the way?

razyn
21-06-12, 13:59
Also, it is worth mentioning that R1b P312 main subclades(U152, M167,L21) have their highest variance in France.

It is worth mentioning that M167 isn't a "main subclade" of P312, on the level of L21 and U152. That distinction currently goes to DF27, parent of Z196 (and of several of its less prolific brothers, one being the Scandinavian L238). Z196 has two large branches, Z209/Z220 (the North/South cluster, distribution of which is pretty continuous from Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic, the North Sea, and the British Isles -- as well as present France and Iberia) and L176.2 -- of which M167 is a part, but not the only part; another part, L165, seems also to be primarily Scandinavian.

Some of this phylogeny has been filled in quite recently, but the SNPs in question are not new; only their identification and proper placement on the tree is new, and continuing to unfold. The point is that life did not begin for M167 when it arrived at, or evolved in, what is now called France; and nor was it one of the three main clades of P312 by that time. M167 has a considerable ancestry between itself and M51, the nominal topic of this thread -- and much of that ancestry lies far to the east.

If Mikewww is still watching this thread, he has a couple of new slides that illustrate the phylogeny under P312 very well. They deserve a wider audience.

MOESAN
21-06-12, 23:42
Thanks, Razyn - good information and not without weight!

bicicleur
17-02-13, 21:10
L51* must have made the same journey like all other descendants of L51 .. up the Danube till north of the Alps and spreading further from there on

gandalf
10-06-17, 15:07
Hi , I am a bit confused with all those changes in classification , I have done dna test with 23andme ,
the first result was R1b1b2a1a (= R-U106 ? ) then they put me into R-M412 ( L-51) and today it is simply R-L51 ,
can somebody explain all this ?

gandalf
01-08-17, 00:28
Thank you very much !

Ron Lindsay
03-08-17, 23:17
If Mikewww is still watching this thread, he has a couple of new slides that illustrate the phylogeny under P312 very well. They deserve a wider audience.[/QUOTE]

MOESAN
15-08-17, 00:06
I think I saw L51 in Slovakia too (two surveys in the game I think: Busby and Myres with different conclusions); I would like to know if the %ages here are absolute or relative to total R1b? relative %ages are of great interest, because R1b is so heavy in West!

MOESAN
15-08-17, 00:31
Outside Western Europe (with N-Italy: 2,30%) Myres (?) had: (absolute % I think): Slovakia 0,70% - Poland 0,50% - Kreta 0,50% - Hungary 0,90% - Russia North 0,40% - Turkey 0,20% - Iran 0,70 % - I see to me proportionally someones of East Europe had greater % relative to total R1B - to be checked

MOESAN
25-08-17, 14:40
to try to figure out how a subclade came in a place it's of great interest to see it %s compared to upstream SNP's and downstream SNP's; a SNP stage isolated in a pop very strongly ressembles an intrusive one, not one in place on an ancient trail - when its "tail" (downstream) is very important compared to its upstram SNP's it could be said the beginning of a founder event - the contrary plaids for a dead end (very often then the absolute percentage of the haplo is weak or weak enough there - the today pops percentages cannot have not the worth of ancient DNA but the today distribution of R1b SNP's (in center: L23, L51, L11) rather shows a track through East Central Europe, along the Danube river and North of it; the historical " births boom" could have been taken place around Switzerland, SW Germany and Eastern France; I don't exclude a southern way near the Mediterranea sea directly to S-Italy and Eastern Spain, without any proof because a passage across N-Italy from the Central or Western Danube or across S-France is still very possible and simpler...
I think/bet the most of the Y-R1b-L23 ancestors crossed the Southern Steppes from East (North the Caspian) and the breaking off of L51 and Z2103 took place around Ukraine - other R1b pre L23 took the southern road to Near-East and created other downstream SNPs without link to the most of the Europe ones -
I still believe (without certainty) the Armenia R1b pool is not the "father" of the Western Steppes R1b-L23, maybe the "son"? - in the doubt, Kura-Araxes a well defined Y-haplo's would be an important clue -
without guarantee of the government!

MOESAN
25-08-17, 14:43
I lack sufficient current samples of R1b in some countries but it seems the Croatian pool is a new one rather than an ancestral one: coming back Eastwards of some Celts/Italics there? at first sight (but insufficient data) it's very different from the S-E Europe R1b pool in quality.

Conastoga
15-09-18, 07:25
An understanding of the how Western Europe and Eurasia took refuge south during the Last Glacial Maximum and Younger Dryas event is seldom considered as is lower sea levels and Doggerland... DNA origination was scrambled 10,900 to 9,600 BCE (Younger Dryas Catastrophe); and then, there's the "Ghost Population" Theory which tries to explain peopling of America. Today's map is futile researching ancient people of an ancient geography.

Pip
18-09-18, 00:16
It might be worth revisiting this question, as further data is emerging all the time.

What is recognised as R1b-L51 is actually a combination of five or six L51-equivalent SNPs that would have arisen over a substantial period of time, rather than originating at a single point in time. As such, the formation of L51 is best understood as line of ancestry that emerged over several hundred years across a swathe of land in which each of these ancestors would have roamed. If some or all of the bearers of formative L51 were nomadic pastoralists, hunter gatherers, traders, opportunists and/or mercenaries, then the area over which L51 'originated' could have been huge.

The data also suggests that early L51 is a lineage that struggled to survive and develop, so there is likely to be little trace of it in ancient samples until certain of its subclades flourished several centuries after its formative process had completed.

Based on yDNA, mtDNA and autosomal DNA, both ancient and modern, I would estimate that L51 was formative over the whole arc of land from Poland in the North East to the Carpathians/Dniester/Danube in the South East to Southern Germany & Northern France in the West. I will summarise my reasoning in a later post.

markod
18-09-18, 01:11
It might be worth revisiting this question, as further data is emerging all the time.

What is recognised as R1b-L51 is actually a combination of five or six L51-equivalent SNPs that would have arisen over a substantial period of time, rather than originating at a single point in time. As such, the formation of L51 is best understood as line of ancestry that emerged over several hundred years across a swathe of land in which each of these ancestors would have roamed. If some or all of the bearers of formative L51 were nomadic pastoralists, hunter gatherers, traders, opportunists and/or mercenaries, then the area over which L51 'originated' could have been huge.

The data also suggests that early L51 is a lineage that struggled to survive and develop, so there is likely to be little trace of it in ancient samples until certain of its subclades flourished several centuries after its formative process had completed.

Based on yDNA, mtDNA and autosomal DNA, both ancient and modern, I would estimate that L51 was formative over the whole arc of land from Poland in the North East to the Carpathians/Dniester/Danube in the South East to Southern Germany & Northern France in the West. I will summarise my reasoning in a later post.

Under the current model L51 or its immediate predecessor must have developed on the steppe or in the early offshoots of Yamnaya in Romania, Bulgaria and surroundings. Had it arisen in Central Europe an association with the initial IE expansion would be unlikely.

Pip
18-09-18, 21:47
I agree that DNA evidence indicates L51's predecessor most likely developed on the Steppe, and that either formative L51 itself or a close relative probably had a presence in Romania and Bulgaria. The data I have seen would suggest a developmental route commencing in North Eastern Europe (most likely Poland), and moving via the Romanian Carpathians, Danube and Upper Rhine to emerge fully formed in Northern France. I have nothing to say about IE or any other groups of languages that might have been spoken.

The basal branches of L51 and many of its sub-branches each coalesce to an estimated origin point in Northern France; this is unlikely to be a coincidence. Yet early L51's DNA contains some heavy traces of DNA shared with Neolithic and Chalcolithic Poland, the Carpathians and the Eastern Balkans, and also to a lesser extent the Central Russian Steppe, indicating substantial contributions from a variety of Eastern gene pools.

I will precis some of the data analysis when I get a bit more time.

bicicleur
18-09-18, 21:54
I agree that DNA evidence indicates L51's predecessor most likely developed on the Steppe, and that either formative L51 itself or a close relative probably had a presence in Romania and Bulgaria. The data I have seen would suggest a developmental route commencing in North Eastern Europe (most likely Poland), and moving via the Romanian Carpathians, Danube and Upper Rhine to emerge fully formed in Northern France. I have nothing to say about IE or any other groups of languages that might have been spoken.

The basal branches of L51 and many of its sub-branches each coalesce to an estimated origin point in Northern France; this is unlikely to be a coincidence. Yet early L51's DNA contains some heavy traces of DNA shared with Neolithic and Chalcolithic Poland, the Carpathians and the Eastern Balkans, and also to a lesser extent the Central Russian Steppe, indicating substantial contributions from a variety of Eastern gene pools.

I will precis some of the data analysis when I get a bit more time.

check the paper on Bell Beaker DNA

Pip
18-09-18, 23:09
There are a number of papers providing data on different aspects of Bell Beaker DNA.

The data that I have seen suggests:
1. Early R1b-L51 was almost exclusively North West European,
2. Its best fit core mtDNA is Polish and Carpathian Neolithic/Chalcolithic (with lesser amounts of Northern French and Central Russian Neolithic/Chalcolithic), and
3. Its best fit autosomal DNA is Chalcolithic Bulgarian and South Eastern Baltic.

ToBeOrNotToBe
19-09-18, 17:43
There are a number of papers providing data on different aspects of Bell Beaker DNA.

The data that I have seen suggests:
1. Early R1b-L51 was almost exclusively North West European,
2. Its best fit core mtDNA is Polish and Carpathian Neolithic/Chalcolithic (with lesser amounts of Northern French and Central Russian Neolithic/Chalcolithic), and
3. Its best fit autosomal DNA is Chalcolithic Bulgarian and South Eastern Baltic.

The Chalcolithic Bulgarian part is what interests me most - I personally imagine pre-L51 and pre-Z2103 splitting somewhere in the Balkans, or maybe Anatolia, with pre-L51 travelling (perhaps by sea) to Iberia and pre-Z2103 spreading somewhat Eastwards across West Asia. L51, part of the Iberian BBs and amongst typical Megalithic folk, would then travel to Central Europe (acquiring some more Steppe-like mtDNA lineages from Corded Ware women along the way), before expanding throughout Western Europe as part of the Unetice cultural complex. Z2103 would have both remained in West Asia, but also moved up into the Steppe, and from those people Yamnaya would expand into the Balkans. This entire process would be at least at first associated with the spread of metal (L23).

markod
19-09-18, 20:52
The Chalcolithic Bulgarian part is what interests me most - I personally imagine pre-L51 and pre-Z2103 splitting somewhere in the Balkans, or maybe Anatolia, with pre-L51 travelling (perhaps by sea) to Iberia and pre-Z2103 spreading somewhat Eastwards across West Asia. L51, part of the Iberian BBs and amongst typical Megalithic folk, would then travel to Central Europe (acquiring some more Steppe-like mtDNA lineages from Corded Ware women along the way), before expanding throughout Western Europe as part of the Unetice cultural complex. Z2103 would have both remained in West Asia, but also moved up into the Steppe, and from those people Yamnaya would expand into the Balkans. This entire process would be at least at first associated with the spread of metal (L23).

Still, the terminus ante quem for L51 is early BB with a lot of steppe admixture. What could be the explanation of the break between western BB with Late Neolithic lineages & aDNA and steppe admixed R1b-dominant beakers in the east?

Pip
19-09-18, 22:19
The Chalcolithic Bulgarian part is what interests me most - I personally imagine pre-L51 and pre-Z2103 splitting somewhere in the Balkans, or maybe Anatolia, with pre-L51 travelling (perhaps by sea) to Iberia and pre-Z2103 spreading somewhat Eastwards across West Asia. L51, part of the Iberian BBs and amongst typical Megalithic folk, would then travel to Central Europe (acquiring some more Steppe-like mtDNA lineages from Corded Ware women along the way), before expanding throughout Western Europe as part of the Unetice cultural complex. Z2103 would have both remained in West Asia, but also moved up into the Steppe, and from those people Yamnaya would expand into the Balkans. This entire process would be at least at first associated with the spread of metal (L23).
There are indicators in DNA that some early R1b-L23 flirted with Northern Iberia. It fits other data better as Z2103* or L23*, but looks to have moved westwards approximately contemporaneously with L51, so it probably took the same route westwards with formative L51. Given early L51's mtDNA heritage, I would suggest this was most likely up the Danube and North of the Alps.

Pip
19-09-18, 22:38
Still, the terminus ante quem for L51 is early BB with a lot of steppe admixture. What could be the explanation of the break between western BB with Late Neolithic lineages & aDNA and steppe admixed R1b-dominant beakers in the east?
R1b-L23's flirtation with Iberia looks very patchy and brief; perhaps its lineage, and accordingly its Steppe admixture, did not survive to any significant degree.

The data also suggests a barely surviving Steppe-admixed L51 lineage in Northern France that developed and spawned most of the Bell Beaker communities some time later. The further North and East these people moved, the more their Steppe admixture was enhanced by contacts with other haplogroups such as R1a-M417 and R1b-Z2103.

Pip
22-09-18, 16:36
The best fit for German R1b-L51 Bell Beaker mtDNA is 50% Carpathian Chalcolithic, plus significant elements of both Yamnayan (indicating its ancestral relationship to Eastern R1b-Z2103) and Paris Basin Neolithic (suggesting the likely point from which its most recent common ancestor emerged).

Furthermore, all of the first three surviving branches to develop from formative L51 (L52xL151, L151 and PF7589) coalesce to estimated origin points in France.

For both of these reasons, I would suggest that R1b-L51 Bell Beaker moved in on R1a-dominated Germany from the South West; although the closest y-DNA, autosomal and mtDNA matches for L51 each point to a formation process for it that most likely began in the East, probably somewhere in the vicinity of the Carpathians.

Pip
23-09-18, 21:29
A related question is when did L51 originate?

yfull's estimate is over the period 4,100 to 3,700 BC. My estimate using different methodology gives alternative answers, depending on whether three very diverse outlier branches are included within the estimation or excluded as unrepresentative: with outliers included, the estimated age is 4,800 BC; when they are excluded, the formation period is estimated as 4,400 to 3,550 BC.

Additionally, autosomal DNA bearing a striking similarity to that of L51 Bell Beaker, but different to that of L51's brother clade Z2103, has been found in a Bulgarian sample dated to 4,600 BC.

Whichever method is used, R1b-L51 seems to long predate the R1b Bell Beaker phenomenon, which is said to have begun around 2,600 BC.