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sparkey
08-06-12, 00:23
A PhD thesis by Marie Lacan (in French) (http://thesesups.ups-tlse.fr/1392/) gives multiple samples of ancient DNA, including 2 Y-DNA samples from the La Pierre Fritte Dolmen (http://www.cctvmaintenon.fr/Le-dolmen-de-la-Pierre-Fritte.html). Both turned out to be I2a1a (Lacan uses "I2a1," it's M26+, the type common now in Sardinia). I put the STRs into Cullen's Predictor, and confirmed the high confidence of this result. See also Jean Manco's report (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10690.msg132410#msg132410).

These are interesting, although perhaps not unexpected, samples. They're nearly contemporary with the Treilles samples that turned up I2a1a among the more common G2a.

The mtDNA from the same site was K and K1a. Other ancient samples yielded H and U5, including Mesolithic H from Guipuzcoa.

mihaitzateo
08-06-12, 00:56
So I2a1a split from I2a1b more than 5000 years ago.

LeBrok
08-06-12, 01:56
Any news if they were hunter-gatherers or farmers/pastoralists? Where the graves found in caves, forests, swamps or villages, or any conclusion about their lifestyle?
Unfortunately I can't read french.

sparkey
08-06-12, 02:06
So I2a1a split from I2a1b more than 5000 years ago.

Nordtvedt estimates that the branch I2a1a is on (along with I2a1c) split from the branch I2a1b is on (along with I2a1*-F and I2a1-L880) about 20,000 years ago, so that's not particularly surprising.

rms2
08-06-12, 02:12
http://thesesups.ups-tlse.fr/1392/

This is the PhD thesis of Marie Lacan, in French. It was posted at
World Families by Bernard Secher.

I don't read French, so I am depending on others and on Google Translate,
but apparently the remains of two males from the Dolmen of La Pierre
Fritte, Yermenonville, Eure et Loire, France, circa 2800 BC, tested I2a1.

hope
08-06-12, 11:21
http://thesesups.ups-tlse.fr/1392/

This is the PhD thesis of Marie Lacan, in French. It was posted at
World Families by Bernard Secher.

I don't read French, so I am depending on others and on Google Translate,
but apparently the remains of two males from the Dolmen of La Pierre
Fritte, Yermenonville, Eure et Loire, France, circa 2800 BC, tested I2a1.

I may be completely wrong but is this the translation you were after ?



Summary in French

The Neolithic transition was a major event in the history of the peopling of Europe. To directly assess how the Neolithic Mediterranean basin may have influenced the genome of European old, we conducted molecular analyzes of human specimens from this period. Analyses focused on 134 samples from 29 different archaeological sites, dated to the Mesolithic to the junction with the protohistoric period. Special attention was paid to two main sites for which the first samples studied appeared to contain endogenous DNA relatively well preserved, the "Cave of the Avellaner" in Spanish Catalonia (first half of the fifth millennium BC. J. -C.), and the "Cave I Treilles" (Aveyron) dated from the late Neolithic period (about 3000 years BC.). Despite the difficulties inherent to the peculiarities of ancient DNA, we were able to analyze different types of molecular markers located on both mitochondrial DNA, but also on the nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y chromosome). This allowed us to obtain new information on the recruitment of two burial chambers burial major (sex determination of individuals, close family ties, and the overall genetic structure), but also to determine the biogeographic origin of individuals buried. We were also able to analyze nuclear polymorphism associated with lactase persistence. Overall, the results confirm that the spread of the Neolithic has been a heterogeneous phenomenon in Europe. They also suggest that the impact of this transition has been different on male and female lines. Indeed, if the mitochondrial haplogroups found are quite varied and hear in a diverse and predominantly maternal origin old, most people wear male Y haplogroups described as being associated with the Neolithic expansion (G2a and E1b1b1a1b). Bias due to recruitment funeral implemented within two sepulchral sets, however, can explain the low diversity found within patrilines, further investigations are needed to confirm these preliminary findings. In any case, these results represent, to date, the first available data on male lineages present in the Neolithic in SW Europe. Ultimately, this work demonstrates for the first time with molecular data older than the Neolithic of south west Europe has been accompanied by a spread of people along the Mediterranean coast that would have introduced into the western regions of Mediterranean, new bloodlines from the Balkans and / or the Middle East.

hope
08-06-12, 11:51
Any news if they were hunter-gatherers or farmers/pastoralists? Where the graves found in caves, forests, swamps or villages, or any conclusion about their lifestyle?
Unfortunately I can't read french.

I might be wrong Le Brok but check the Y-DNA thread , this may be the translation you are after.

EDIT: it`s actually in rms2 12a1 thread , but the post has`nt come through yet.

spongetaro
08-06-12, 12:44
Any news if they were hunter-gatherers or farmers/pastoralists? Where the graves found in caves, forests, swamps or villages, or any conclusion about their lifestyle?
Unfortunately I can't read french.

5656
Bones were found under this dolmen in Yermenonville (Eure et Loire department) near Paris. Individuals belonged to the Seine Oise Marne neolithic culture, they where farmers.



5658

sparkey
08-06-12, 17:07
I might be wrong Le Brok but check the Y-DNA thread , this may be the translation you are after.

EDIT: it`s actually in rms2 12a1 thread , but the post has`nt come through yet.

It's now moved here. :good_job:

Maciamo
09-06-12, 19:15
These are interesting, although perhaps not unexpected, samples. They're nearly contemporary with the Treilles samples that turned up I2a1a among the more common G2a.

It's nevertheless an important confirmation that haplogroup I2 was associated with the Megalithic cultures, along with G2a. The Treilles samples could leave the impression that the I2a1a samples were assimilated hunter-gatherers, or killed enemies. If these new skeletons were buried under a dolmen it means that they were members of the community of Megalith builders, hence also farmers.

The high incidence of both G2a and I2a1a in modern Sardinians hinted that the two haplogroups formed a single Neolithic community. We still don't know whether G2a came from the Near East and merged with the local I2a1a people as they settled new lands in southern and western Europe (my favoured hypothesis), or if both travelled together from the Near East, or both were indigenous from southern Europe (quite unlikely, but we still don't have any Neolithic or older G2a from the Near East to prove that G2a did indeed originate there).

MOESAN
11-06-12, 14:30
It's nevertheless an important confirmation that haplogroup I2 was associated with the Megalithic cultures, along with G2a. The Treilles samples could leave the impression that the I2a1a samples were assimilated hunter-gatherers, or killed enemies. If these new skeletons were buried under a dolmen it means that they were members of the community of Megalith builders, hence also farmers.

The high incidence of both G2a and I2a1a in modern Sardinians hinted that the two haplogroups formed a single Neolithic community. We still don't know whether G2a came from the Near East and merged with the local I2a1a people as they settled new lands in southern and western Europe (my favoured hypothesis), or if both travelled together from the Near East, or both were indigenous from southern Europe (quite unlikely, but we still don't have any Neolithic or older G2a from the Near East to prove that G2a did indeed originate there).


I am ot sure Y-I21a1 M86 and Y-G2a were so closely culturally linked at a first stage - Neolithic reached Western Europe (Corsica) about 6000 BC (Cardial) and preceded the megalithic explosion (4000-3000 BC) - the megalithic distribution seams more closely related to coastal occupations, with phenotypes not so akin to the first Neolithic ones - I should link first megalithism to the relatively homogenous admixture of the 'long barrows people', found in the Isles and sporadically in Brittany, Western Aquitain, North Spain, the Netherlands, scandinavian coasts (before Corded) and some points of Mediterranea - the first "boosters" could have been eastern or central mediterranean Y-I2a1a's (difficult to say, Y-I2a* was surely in South Western Europe long time ago) - this HG is present enough too on the Adriatic Coasts of ex-Yougoslavia, without we should know if it came there from East or West or ...? so ? - these specific Y-I2a bearers mixed in Iberia and France, I believe, with early bearers of a sort of Y-R1b-P310 (fathers of L21-S145 nd to others?) giving birth to the so called 'long barrows' type and megalithic atlantic culture, with some variations in the cultural facies and the genetic common admixture (my bet) - I want not discuss here the arrival date of Y-R1b in Occident even if I ma tempted to put it very early... - Y-G2 (and others: some Y-J2 and some Y-E1b-V78?) seams to me more linked to the first 'cardial' arrivals (Cists buryings?) - it could correspond partly with the phenotype of 'Baumes-Chaudes', closer to small mediterranean gracile types (as dolichocephalic, but smaller statured, higher vaulted skulls, small faces but narrower jaws than the mean (in spite of well developed 'bigozymatic) of 'long barrow' people - in 'L-B' people the 2 principal parts of admixture are without immediate connexion with 'Baumes-Chaudes' - I precise that some phenotypical connexions was found in SOM culture with the two, 'long-barrows' maybe from Normandy coasts and 'baumes-chaudes' from South France (by Rhône-Saône-Seine rivers) these 2 types never take the strong side over the more archaic mesolithic admixture people in SOM -
I admit the phenotypes can be inherited by mothers and so not so strictly tied to Y-DNA... It is just for the fun -for cultural aspect, even if Y-I2a1a is old in western Mediterranean, I believe the cultural impulse (megalithism) or the political impulse due to an elite came from more eastern places in Mediterranea (Croatia shores? Kybros? Egea?) even if this elite played a tiny role in genetics - uneasy to affirm -