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View Full Version : Y haplogroup I2a1 or I2a2?



Herald
13-06-12, 13:36
Hi,

I run a website called LostLangtons, about the Langton family. We have a pretty good Y-Chromosome DNA project.
I'd post a link, but i havent posted enough yet to be allowed. Its easy to find through google though.

We have two unrelated Langton groups who are I2a, one group is I2a2, but the other i dont know if its I2a1 or I2a2. Is it possible to tell from the results we have?

Thanks
Joel

sparkey
13-06-12, 17:55
Here (http://www.lostlangtons.co.uk/LangtonDNAProject.shtml) is a link.

The Langton by Spilsby, Lincolnshire group is a perfect match with the subclade nicknamed I2a-Western. At ISOGG (the SNP tree standardization body usually preferred here) this subclade is known as I2a1c, although you'll also see "I2a3" (at FTDNA and others that still don't recognize L460) and "I2a1c1" (at places that are ahead of the game and recognize L624 already).

The I2a1 West Langton, Leicestershire group fits within the broader M26+ subclade called I2a1a at ISOGG and "I2a1" at places like FTDNA that still don't recognize L460. It's probably possible to get even more precise than that. The expert on I2a1a subclades is Bernie Cullen at the FTDNA I2a Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup), if you want to contact him.

And for good measure, the Launton, Northamptonshire group is a good match for the M223+ subclade known as Cont1, currently within I2a2a (as ISOGG calls it; FTDNA uses "I2b1"), although it should get a more specific nomenclature now that a bunch of SNPs (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20for%20M223+.pdf) have been found for it.

See also Cullen's Predictor (http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm) to do Haplogroup I predictions yourself; Ken Nordtvedt's tree and map (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf); and the current ISOGG tree (http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html).

Herald
10-07-12, 20:17
Thanks for all this. Very helpful and interesting. Sorry for the delay in replying, my wife has been in hospital.
I dont suppose you have any insights into the other profiles in our dna project?

best
Joel

sparkey
10-07-12, 21:05
Thanks for all this. Very helpful and interesting. Sorry for the delay in replying, my wife has been in hospital.
I dont suppose you have any insights into the other profiles in our dna project?

best
Joel

I specialize in Haplogroup I, so I'll look at your other two Haplogroup I groups as well.

The I1 Hillingdon, Middlesex group is clearly I1 L22-, and probably I1 Z58+, based on Nordtvedt's modalities. That's the normal West Germanic clade. It's tough to get more specific (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20for%20I1xL22.pdf) without additional SNP tests. It's OK to just call it "I1" for now.

The "I2b1" Ireland group is clearly within the group nicknamed "I2-Cont2b," within what is called I2a2a3a at ISOGG, and somewhere within I2b1 at FTDNA (I haven't really kept up with FTDNA nomenclature). This branch is usually recognized as Anglo-Saxon in the context of the British Isles, due to the way it is distributed in Germany and elsewhere.

Herald
10-07-12, 23:12
Thanks again. I prefer the ISOGG classifications to the genetics testing company ones, as they seem both safe, yet more up to date and its a consistant model I can use.

Could i ask you to ellaborate on the last sentence?:
"This branch is usually recognized as Anglo-Saxon in the context of the British Isles, due to the way it is distributed in Germany and elsewhere."

What we have found, we think, with the Langton DNA project, is that the dna tends to represent not British, but Norman dna. When we started the project we expected to get 70% group R, but we didnt, and the group R results that we did get were unusual, with rare mutations meaning that they had relatively few matches.
Being a place-name surname, we have been able to trace the origin of almost all of the Langton families back to a Langton village from which they took the name shortly after the conquest, when they owned land in these villages according to many 12th and 13th century charters that we have seen. Therefore, we think this means that they were Norman, or those who were involved with the Normans in the invasion.
I say this last part because my own DNA (see Joel Langton in the table) is a rare J2a3d without any matches in England and our closest (both geographically and genetically) is a guy in Belgium, whose family come from Gent, and it was Gilbert of Ghent who owned the village of Langton by Horncastle in Lincolnshire, having helped out in the invasion and being granted lands there.

Though this may be the case overal, it doenst mean it applies to all Langtons, and although I2a2a3a may not be that common in Britian, we havent been able to trace this particular persons family back to a Langton village origin, so his origin is still very much open to interpretation.

Best
Joel