West asians vs Mediterranean neolithic farmers

spongetaro

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We can split the Neolithic of South East Europe in two stages.

The first starts in 6850 BC with the Seklo culture in Greece and lead to the foundation of Starcevo (former yougoslavia) and Körös culture (Hungary) . Those very first farmers may have carry the Mediterranean/ Southern admixture as well as haplogroups I2a and G2a.



The second one saw the foundation around 5500 BC of Vinca and Dimini culture with clear links with the Anatolian area and Syria (the Halaf culture ) together forming the Dark Burnished Ware complex.
M. Özdögan and N. Baseglen talk about a "common developping zone" between north west Anatolia and North East Balkans. Vinca style houses can be found in the Marmara sea area BEFORE the Black sea deluge ( Ilipinar, 6000 BC).
The ofshoots of the Vinca culture (Karanovo etc) overtook the former local neolithic cultures and forced the local folks to flee in the peripheral regions (Moldavia, Illyria, etc) where we found high levels of I2a today.
In the same time, the LBK culture also starts out of the old Starcevo körös neolithic stock that's why we've found G2a and I2a in LBK, and also Printed Cardium ancient dna.

In the map below, the first culture that have their roots in the Seklo culture are shown in blue. They probably brought the Southern admixture to southwestern Europe.
asianique-5000.jpg


The second Neolithic wave is shown in orange. The LBK (rubanné in French) is red.
asianique-4000.jpg


The second neolithic wave in South eastern Europe may have been caused by the Black sea deluge with populations living in the southern Black sea shores probably carrying J2 (and maybe R1b L23 already) fleeing to Greece, and the Northern Balkan region via the Bosphorus. Hence the replacement of the old I2a and G2a by the J2 newcomers.
Accordng to wikipedia:

The "invasion theory" states that the Sesklo culture lasted more than one full millennium up until 5000 BC when it was violently conquered by people of the Dimini culture. The Dimini culture in this theory is considered different from that found at Sesklo




In the two pictures below, we see the stricking resemblance between Vinca and the obeid (Mesopotamia) mother godess which ponts to a clear West asian link.

vinca.jpg
mother godess from Vinca

ubaid-SumerQn.jpg


An other evidence of the Link between Vinca and West asian culture is the use of Swastika.
Accordng to wikipedia:
Among the earliest cultures utilizing swastika is the neolithic Vinča culture of South-East Europe .

Interestingly, you also find swastika in the Hassuna-Samarra culture( -56000 - 5000 BC, Irak)

attachment.php


The West asians farmers living in Anatolia and Caucasus may have been pushed westward to Europe and southward to the middle east, spreading their refined culture to the south (Halaf, Samarra, Obeid and ultimately Sumer) and the west (Vinca, Dimini).


350px-Mesopotamia_Per%C3%ADodo_6.PNG

That second wave of Neolithic didn't reach Western, Northern and Southwestern Europe (except Sicily and southern Italy which are high in J2) that is why western and northern european have more Mediterranean than west Aian admixture.


West-Asian-admixture.jpg



What is tricky with the West asian distribution map is that it doesn't make the difference between mostly J2 and mostly R1b populations. The high levels of west Asian in south east europeans and Southern Italians is probably due to that later neolithic wave coming from Anatolia and carrying J2.
 

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The first starts in 6850 BC with the Seklo culture in Greece and lead to the foundation of Starcevo (former yougoslavia) and Körös culture (Hungary) . Those very first farmers may have carry the Mediterranean/ Southern admixture as well as haplogroups I2a and G2a.
That second wave of Neolithic didn't reach Western, Northern and Southwestern Europe (except Sicily and southern Italy which are high in J2) that is why western and northern european have more Mediterranean than west Aian admixture.

Right now in another thread a new paper about iranian Y-lineages is being discussed, where Y-IJ has been found. It seems to support my theory that near-eastern immigrants were not only neolithic farmers, but some were still hunter-gatherers.

"F-M89* and IJ-M429* were observed in the Iranian plateau: the first represents the ancestral state of the main Euro-Asiatic haplogroups [36] while the second probably moved toward southeast Europe sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum where it differentiated into the “western Eurasian” haplogroup I"

Further, J2a-M92 variance distribution seems surprisingly stronger in the Balkans and Italy than the near-east, according to the maps. So maybe even J2 could have been already in Europe during the palaeolithic?

To me it still looks more like the bulk of Atlantic/Mediterranean admixture comes from near-eastern hunter-gatherers, subsequently enriched by neolithic farmers.
 
Right now in another thread a new paper about iranian Y-lineages is being discussed, where Y-IJ has been found. It seems to support my theory that near-eastern immigrants were not only neolithic farmers, but some were still hunter-gatherers.

I'm not sure I understand you here. You're saying that hunter-gatherers immigrated alongside farmers during the Neolithic? If so, I don't understand how finding IJ* supports that. Finding IJ* is also consistent with one branch of IJ (the one that became I) splitting from the others in West Asia and then bottlenecking in Europe during the Paleolithic, and then J not coming until the Neolithic. That said, I'm still leaving multiple possibilities open for European Haplogroup J in particular.
 
I'm not sure I understand you here. You're saying that hunter-gatherers immigrated alongside farmers during the Neolithic?

Not alongside, but before (Late Glacial, 12–19 kya). If I understand correctly the section "Evidence of Late Glacial expansions from a Near Eastern Y-chromosome reservoir", the authors suggest a connection to mtDNA T and J:

"Although the Y-chromosome molecular clock is far from reaching the mtDNA level of accuracy, evidences of Late Glacial dispersals from the Middle East are provided by the large number of deep rooting lineages (rare elsewhere), from which diverged different branches that underwent Neolithic expansions."
 
Right now in another thread a new paper about iranian Y-lineages is being discussed, where Y-IJ has been found. It seems to support my theory that near-eastern immigrants were not only neolithic farmers, but some were still hunter-gatherers.

"F-M89* and IJ-M429* were observed in the Iranian plateau: the first represents the ancestral state of the main Euro-Asiatic haplogroups [36] while the second probably moved toward southeast Europe sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum where it differentiated into the “western Eurasian” haplogroup I"

Further, J2a-M92 variance distribution seems surprisingly stronger in the Balkans and Italy than the near-east, according to the maps. So maybe even J2 could have been already in Europe during the palaeolithic?

To me it still looks more like the bulk of Atlantic/Mediterranean admixture comes from near-eastern hunter-gatherers, subsequently enriched by neolithic farmers.

so west-asian is the caucasus in the majority.

some say, J1 was inland and J2 coast people .........If J2 came out of J* then they are more hunters than farmers as compared to J1 ........IMO
 
Well in agriculture and junters-gotherers we must notice few things

Sheppards belong where? in agriculture or in gatherers?

and early farmers
knew about pasterizing?

knew about irrigation?

cause its another thing to farm millet or wheat
and another to farm the above with irrigation
 
Well in agriculture and junters-gotherers we must notice few things

Sheppards belong where? in agriculture or in gatherers?

For instance in the Levant, there existed the Natufian culture of hunter-gatherers still 13000-10000 years ago.
It belongs to the Epipaleolithic which technologically merged with the european Mesolithic.
Though the authors are refering to an earlier period of 12000-19000 years ago.

and early farmers
knew about pasterizing?

knew about irrigation?

cause its another thing to farm millet or wheat
and another to farm the above with irrigation

I think these are all neolithic, not hunter-gatherer techniques.
 
so west-asian is the caucasus in the majority.

some say, J1 was inland and J2 coast people .........If J2 came out of J* then they are more hunters than farmers as compared to J1 ........IMO

Maybe. J2a-M92 variance has a maximum in Anatolia, but not in the Levant. On the other hand, Göbekli Tepe is in Anatolia, which was right in a transition to the neolithic, thus it is still not clear whether J2a-M92 is really related to paleolithic migrations.
 
I don't think I2a males were early Neolithic Mediterranean farmers that came from Middle East.They were local people that joined the early farmers.Moreover all of I2a in Balkans is of I2a2-Dinaric cluster which is supposed to come with Slavic migrations.

Dienekes made a good comparison linking the Middle Eastern/Southern component with G2a and Atlantic_Baltic with I2a.It fits well.
 
I don't think I2a males were early Neolithic Mediterranean farmers that came from Middle East.They were local people that joined the early farmers.Moreover all of I2a in Balkans is of I2a2-Dinaric cluster which is supposed to come with Slavic migrations.

Dienekes made a good comparison linking the Middle Eastern/Southern component with G2a and Atlantic_Baltic with I2a.It fits well.

Yeah, all of Haplogroup I1 and 2 are native, paleolithic haplogroups from Europe. These were not late farming folk. These were the Europeans who hunted mammoth, lived in Doggerland, and otherwise chillaxin' jackson'd in Ice Age Europe.
 
Paleolithic or not, I2a and even I1 might have carried the Southern/Mediterranean admixture. Folks of the Megalithic, Cucuteni Tripolje and even the Scandinavian TRB cultures are all described as Mediterraneans, gracile Mediterraneans.
Mediterranean doesn't mean "foreign" or "Middle East" at all. It is a human type that appeared BEFORE the neolithic in some part of Europe.
 
Paleolithic or not, I2a and even I1 might have carried the Southern/Mediterranean admixture. Folks of the Megalithic, Cucuteni Tripolje and even the Scandinavian TRB cultures are all described as Mediterraneans, gracile Mediterraneans.
Mediterranean doesn't mean "foreign" or "Middle East" at all. It is a human type that appeared BEFORE the neolithic in some part of Europe.

We don't know the genetic composition of Cucuteni folks yet.There is no evidence for what are you saying.Early Neolithic farmers(Mediterraneans) are supposed to come with Cardium Pottery Culture who were predominantly carrying G2a uniparental marker with maybe small amount of EV13.I2a could have well been already found in Europe.
 
We don't know the genetic composition of Cucuteni folks yet.There is no evidence for what are you saying.Early Neolithic farmers(Mediterraneans) are supposed to come with Cardium Pottery Culture who were predominantly carrying G2a uniparental marker with maybe small amount of EV13.I2a could have well been already found in Europe.

In many archeological books Cucuteni folks and Danubian neolithic farmers are described as Mediterraneans.
There isn't evidences either that the Mediterraneans came with the early farmers. In North Western France (Téviec and Hoëdic), you find Mediterraneans as early as the Mesolithic so why would Mesolithic Greeks not be Mediterraneans too? Do you believe that before the begining of the Neolithic, the Greeks carried the Northern Europe admixture?
Also, you might have noticed that Sardinians are I2a rather than G2a and Nevertheless the most Mediterranean population in Europe.
 
Well I am still uncertain

cause

1) case of G2a send us to Otzi meaning IE was an early farming (shepperds, millet grain farmers, probably no irrigation ) before 6 000 BC
So how old is I Hg?
what do you say Sparkey? what extracts from Nortverd

2) case of R1b and R1a which I used in other posts, lacks in some no IE populations that are carriers
Tumuli case about 4500 BC

3) case of J2 is strange
if we connect it with irrigation colonisation and merchant and late R1b M-23 (hettites) is giving us max 3 000 BC
but if we don't?
But I wonder chronologically can we connect early forms of IJ with G2 or not?
 
In many archeological books Cucuteni folks and Danubian neolithic farmers are described as Mediterraneans.
There isn't evidences either that the Mediterraneans came with the early farmers. In North Western France (Téviec and Hoëdic), you find Mediterraneans as early as the Mesolithic so why would Mesolithic Greeks not be Mediterraneans too? Do you believe that before the begining of the Neolithic, the Greeks carried the Northern Europe admixture?
Also, you might have noticed that Sardinians are I2a rather than G2a and Nevertheless the most Mediterranean population in Europe.

There is.Southern component is a very important component in Middle East.Remember,SouthWestAsian is mostly Proto-Med with some East-African alleles.So they must have come with Early Neolithic farmers.

Also,haplogroup percentages means nothing since they can drastically change throughout the age.Sardinians still have presence of G2a mostly concentrated in Northern Sardinia and Southern Corsica.

Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.
 
There is.Southern component is a very important component in Middle East.Remember,SouthWestAsian is mostly Proto-Med with some East-African alleles.So they must have come with Early Neolithic farmers.

Also,haplogroup percentages means nothing since they can drastically change throughout the age.Sardinians still have presence of G2a mostly concentrated in Northern Sardinia and Southern Corsica.

Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.

Does old persia and assyria mean south-west asians?
 
Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.

Actually it is a good point, which hints towards an interesting difference between K12b and K10a:

According to K10a you are right, there is ca. 27% Atlantic_Baltic in Sardinians. But according to K12b they have exactly 0% North_euro. That's strange, since Atlantic_baltic and North_euro distributions are very similar elsewhere.

That means that:

1. these 27% of Atlantic_Baltic got suddenly added to the Atlantic_med component instead of North_euro by K12b. Let's call it the unknown admixture X.

2. At the same time, another part of Atlantic_med seemingly became Caucasus in K12b for Sardinians.

3. Does it mean that admixture X is exclusively mesolithic/paleolithic west european? I don't think so, since also the Greeks for instance have at least as much Atlantic_Baltic (28.9%) as Sardinians.

The only logical conclusion is that there must have beem a rather old mediterranean component which got added to Atlantic_Baltic in K10a.

(Contrary to some others, I don't consider K12b as invalid, because it just shows a different point of view, hiding and showing different features)
 
There is.Southern component is a very important component in Middle East.Remember,SouthWestAsian is mostly Proto-Med with some East-African alleles.So they must have come with Early Neolithic farmers.

Also,haplogroup percentages means nothing since they can drastically change throughout the age.Sardinians still have presence of G2a mostly concentrated in Northern Sardinia and Southern Corsica.

Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.
Malsori, you are mixing apples with oranges. First, because Southwest Asian and Southern are not the same, and you assume that its huge presence in the Middle East makes both things equivalent. Wrong.

If you check the Fst distances, you'll see that the Southern component is a lot more removed from Black African clusters than the Southwest Asian is. Sardinians and Basques (as well as some Iberians), show very little West Asian and Southwest Asian, which are no way absent among Middle Eastern populations. If the resolution is very high, those populations show very high percents of Southwest Asian, and if the K's are lower, they get substantial West Asian despite being modal in Southern. So it's not clear at all that Southern must have come with Neolithic farmers, it could have been in Europe even long before considering its non despreciable presence in Southern Europe.

Another explanation is that Neolithic Farmers were not as Middle Eastern as some people thinks, exactly the same valid IMO. Simply because, as I said in other threads, what is identified nowadays as Middle Eastern, is a composite of West Asian and hints of African superposed to the Mediterranean substratum. Hence, quite different considering what Southern in its "pure" form is: very distant from inner African groups, and not specially close to the West Asian cluster according to K7b.

What I say it's more evident in the K10a run, check what Dienekes' said about Mediterranean (Modal in Sardinians, and quite high in both Basques and Iberians):

As for the African/Sub-Saharan components, they tend to be closer to the Southwest Asian/Red Sea components, not the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med one.

The Mediterranean components appear to be the most remote ones overall (also evidenced by the fact that Basques and Sardinians nearly always form the peak in the West/East Eurasian/African triangle), which makes sense since the region where the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med component is modal is most remote from both Africa and Asia along the land migration routes.
 
Malsori, you are mixing apples with oranges. First, because Southwest Asian and Southern are not the same, and you assume that its huge presence in the Middle East makes both things equivalent. Wrong.

If you check the Fst distances, you'll see that the Southern component is a lot more removed from Black African clusters than the Southwest Asian is. Sardinians and Basques (as well as some Iberians), show very little West Asian and Southwest Asian, which are no way absent among Middle Eastern populations. If the resolution is very high, those populations show very high percents of Southwest Asian, and if the K's are lower, they get substantial West Asian despite being modal in Southern. So it's not clear at all that Southern must have come with Neolithic farmers, it could have been in Europe even long before considering its non despreciable presence in Southern Europe.

Another explanation is that Neolithic Farmers were not as Middle Eastern as some people thinks, exactly the same valid IMO. Simply because, as I said in other threads, what is identified nowadays as Middle Eastern, is a composite of West Asian and hints of African superposed to the Mediterranean substratum. Hence, quite different considering what Southern in its "pure" form is: very distant from inner African groups, and not specially close to the West Asian cluster according to K7b.

What I say it's more evident in the K10a run, check what Dienekes' said about Mediterranean (Modal in Sardinians, and quite high in both Basques and Iberians):

As for the African/Sub-Saharan components, they tend to be closer to the Southwest Asian/Red Sea components, not the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med one.

The Mediterranean components appear to be the most remote ones overall (also evidenced by the fact that Basques and Sardinians nearly always form the peak in the West/East Eurasian/African triangle), which makes sense since the region where the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med component is modal is most remote from both Africa and Asia along the land migration routes.

i do not know how you can state that Iberia has none or nearly none of south-west asian, when Q, L, K and T are present there, especially in the north
 
Actually it is a good point, which hints towards an interesting difference between K12b and K10a:

According to K10a you are right, there is ca. 27% Atlantic_Baltic in Sardinians. But according to K12b they have exactly 0% North_euro. That's strange, since Atlantic_baltic and North_euro distributions are very similar elsewhere.

That means that:

1. these 27% of Atlantic_Baltic got suddenly added to the Atlantic_med component instead of North_euro by K12b. Let's call it the unknown admixture X.

2. At the same time, another part of Atlantic_med seemingly became Caucasus in K12b for Sardinians.

3. Does it mean that admixture X is exclusively mesolithic/paleolithic west european? I don't think so, since also the Greeks for instance have at least as much Atlantic_Baltic (28.9%) as Sardinians.

The only logical conclusion is that there must have beem a rather old mediterranean component which got added to Atlantic_Baltic in K10a.

(Contrary to some others, I don't consider K12b as invalid, because it just shows a different point of view, hiding and showing different features)

Additional remark: The K12b North_euro comonent for Moroccans is also exactly 0%, but K12a Atlantic_Baltic still varies between 5% and 13%. That's similar to Sardinia, but it's already in Africa.
 

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