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zanipolo
20-07-12, 22:51
Reading through Hg R1b1c it was said this line is the pretani people. On checking who they are, there seems no defenition on the word pretani,
some say, they are the Picts from france, some say it means painted people and others say it means anyone from the British isles.

Link below claims them as R1b1c people

http://puesoccurrences.com/2009/07/23/history-in-the-blood/

anyone have any other knowledge

By others
In terms of the origin of the word Pict. I believe the early influential
Greek explorer Pytheas {320-380 BCE}, was the first to venture north to
Britain where he studied the production of tin in Cornwall.

He called the painted people he met in Greek- Prettanike. It was Diodorus,
{90-30 BCE}, another Greek, who later referred to our ancestors as being
from Pretannia 'land of the Pretani'. And later still it was the Romans who
latinised Pretani to Picti.


and linguistic peoplesay
Cruithne / Cruthin / Pretani, then
are they also definitely Picts?

The linguistic difference was:
Q-Celtic (now gaelic) Cruthin was the same as
P-Celtic (now Welsh) Prydyn = Pretani.

and
http://www.impalapublications.com/blog/index.php?/archives/4587-Genes-of-the-Cruthin-by-Cllr-Dr-Ian-Adamson.html

MOESAN
22-07-12, 00:20
PRETANI has nothing to do with PICTI (no latinisation but a latin naming, surely exonyme) -
the CRUITHNI naming by the Goidels or Gaels of Ireland seams, associated with the apprently brittonic pronunciation PRETANI, doing an endonyme or at least a local exonyme of it -
the prevalent theory is that the name concerned in fine all the inhabitanst of the ancient Britannia, and that the Picts of the North was only a less "evolved" ("latenized"?) stratum of the same basic Celtic-pre-Celtic mix of populations, separated by an unprecise limit from they southern "cousins" -
difficult to know more as for I know no precise limit was ever ascribed to the bearers of the name PRETANI-
or some new facts???

hope
22-07-12, 19:55
As I understand it, the word "Pretani" means "people of the shapes" or "designs" ( not tatoos I feel )
Where these people lived was called by some Greek writers "the islands of the Pretani". They have also been noted in Ireland as, Diodorus writes regarding "those of the Pretani who inhabit the Country called Iris (Ireland) (I have to say I have not found this naming of Ireland myself as of yet).
What these groups may have called themselves I don`t think we will know so only have this name based on the description of them.
Regarding Cruthin: Pretani is the Gallo-Brittanic equivalent of the Old Gaelic name Cruthin or Cruithni which is the yet older Q-Celtic Qreteni. ( I believe you know this anyway).
Interestingly, as late as AD784 the Ulster Annals records the death of Coisennech,King of the Iveagh Cruthin, "nepos predeni" (?) is noted.
It seems the first time the "Picts" are called such is in a Latin text of AD297. Perhaps the Picts were remnants of the old Pretani and moved further into North..this I don`t know.

MOESAN
22-07-12, 20:09
As I understand it, the word "Pretani" means "people of the shapes" or "designs" ( not tatoos I feel )
Where these people lived was called by some Greek writers "the islands of the Pretani". They have also been noted in Ireland as, Diodorus writes regarding "those of the Pretani who inhabit the Country called Iris (Ireland) (I have to say I have not found this naming of Ireland myself as of yet).
What these groups may have called themselves I don`t think we will know so only have this name based on the description of them.
Regarding Cruthin: Pretani is the Gallo-Brittanic equivalent of the Old Gaelic name Cruthin or Cruithni which is the yet older Q-Celtic Qreteni. ( I believe you know this anyway).
Interestingly, as late as AD784 the Ulster Annals records the death of Coisennech,King of the Iveagh Cruthin, "nepos predani" is noted.
It seems the first time the "Picts" are called such is in a Latin text of AD297. Perhaps the Picts were remnants of the old Pretani and moved further into North..this I don`t know.

OK but just a point:
I never said that 'pretani' or 'qreteni' would have signified "people of the shapes" or "designs" because I don't know - It seams only it was maybe a general name for the first Celts in Brittain or the name of one ancient tribe extended after that to the whole peoples of Brittain living with the ancient modes...
an old language (non I-E) seams too having been spoken in North Scotland along with a brittonic one (this late one well attested in toponymy) - it is not sure at all the historic Picts have something to do with the speakers of this strange language we know apparently almost nothing precise about it - others here could maybe tell more than me ?

hope
22-07-12, 21:32
OK but just a point:
I never said that 'pretani' or 'qreteni' would have signified "people of the shapes" or "designs" because I don't know - It seams only it was maybe a general name for the first Celts in Brittain or the name of one ancient tribe extended after that to the whole peoples of Brittain living with the ancient modes...
an old language (non I-E) seams too having been spoken in North Scotland along with a brittonic one (this late one well attested in toponymy) - it is not sure at all the historic Picts have something to do with the speakers of this strange language we know apparently almost nothing precise about it - others here could maybe tell more than me ?

Moesan I only wrote my own opinion, I have scant knowledge of linguistics so advocate nothing. :)

hope
24-07-12, 15:16
an old language (non I-E) seams too having been spoken in North Scotland along with a brittonic one (this late one well attested in toponymy) - it is not sure at all the historic Picts have something to do with the speakers of this strange language we know apparently almost nothing precise about it -

What strange language is this Moesan? I only know some talked about Pictish language but thought that idea now dis- proven ?

MOESAN
24-07-12, 17:28
Sorry, I took a "serial" style when speaking about "strange" language: I mean "unknown language for now" - I (and we?) know very few about it, I red only somewhere without I could check it that is was written in the ogamic language, for I know (believe?) -
the historical Picts spoke a brittonic language well attested in toponymy - my knowledge does not run farther, sorry...)

hope
24-07-12, 17:59
Sorry, I took a "serial" style when speaking about "strange" language: I mean "unknown language for now" - I (and we?) know very few about it, I red only somewhere without I could check it that is was written in the ogamic language, for I know (believe?) -
the historical Picts spoke a brittonic language well attested in toponymy - my knowledge does not run farther, sorry...)

Oh ok , I have heard about this then. I thought maybe there was another new theory out there I had not heard about,that was my reason for asking.

Ó Maoil Chonaire
22-12-14, 04:26
Cruithne means "formed ones", or people with forms on them, Pruithne would be the Brythonic equivalent, and it is likely that Pretani is the Grecianised version of that, and Pictish is a Latin translation of that.

Ó Maoil Chonaire
22-12-14, 07:23
It is interesting the meaning but not the phonetics was carried on from the British to the Greek to the Roman.

MarcusMark
12-12-15, 15:17
Hello all, and a good day to all.
I'm here because I just received my DNA results from Scotland's DNA and yes, I'm gonna have to wait for the rest of the story.
Subtype S5979 using Chromo2, so its distribution is not yet understood. It belongs to the larger S215 cluster which has been seen in Ireland, Britian and approximately 5% of Hebridean men.
I've been on a four day road trip and just don't have the sleeplessness to say more, but I will return with what I can find and love to share.

MOESAN
22-12-15, 00:34
Cruithne means "formed ones", or people with forms on them, Pruithne would be the Brythonic equivalent, and it is likely that Pretani is the Grecianised version of that, and Pictish is a Latin translation of that.

just to split hairs: it's not sure 'pruithne' (th) would be the genuine brittonic form: modern brittonic -d- can correspond to modern gaelic -th- (welsh Prydain), and a written -t- can be genuine at those old times (old gaelic form Qretani); nothing tell us the greek adaptation is far from the brittonic pronounciation of the time. cf gaelic 'math', welsh breton 'mad' (very oftne gaelic and brittonic (modern ones) exchange their mutations 'ch'/'g' >< 'g'/'ch' - 'th'/'d' >< 'd'/'th' in cognates, maybe due to place of tonic stress...
concerning the meaning, I don't know if 'cruithne'/'qretani' would correspond to the meaning of "tatooed" or "bearing drawings" or form or something like that - maybe have you some elements?