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ElHorsto
03-08-12, 01:15
- concerning the Saami, they are speakers of Uralic languages (the language family that also includes Finnish, Estonian and much more distantly, Hungarian). The Uralic languages are generally thought to be Mesolithic (or, lacking that, at least, the language of hunter-gatherers), but there's considerable reason to assume that the Uralic languages were not native to Europe. In the past there have been attempts to link the Uralic languages to the Turkic languages (Uralo-Altaic), and more recently (and perhaps more fruitful), the Yukaghir languages of Siberia. Regardless of this, Haplogroup N (which is usually associated with the Uralic-speaking peoples) did evidently originate somewhere in Northeast Asia, and it would seem thus likely that the Proto-Uralic peoples arrived from the east across the taiga zone (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Distribution_Taiga.png) some time during the Mesolithic. If this is the case, then the Proto-Uralic peoples would have intermixed with the native hunter-gatherers of Europe (who, if we follow the idea, may have been bearers of the North European component).

- regarding the question of the Indo-Europeans, it should be pointed out that the Proto-Indo-European language is merely a reconstruction of a (essentially hypothetical) "point" from which all descendant branches of the proto-language (Proto-Italo-Celtic, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Armenian, Proto-Indo-Iranic, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Tocharian etc.) all diverged. This point is usually assumed to have been in the late(st) Neolithic (most importantly, the Proto-Indo-Europeans are usually thought to have been in possession of wheeled vehicles). In reality, it would not have been a single point but a rather long time period (probably spanning centuries), and the Proto-Indo-Europeans must have had a history before that, one that (in however way) must go back into the early Neolithic (and Mesolithic before that). What this means for this context is that the Proto-Indo-Europeans may very well have been bearers of the North European component as a result of their pre-history.

There seems to exist an interesting word for birch trees which is common among all major IE languages:

Germanic, Slavic, Baltic:

Germanic: Berko
Old Prussian: Berse
Lith.:Berlas
Slavic: Bereza

Celto-Italic:

Irish: Beith
Galician: Bidueiro
Italian: Betulla
Latin: Betulis

Birches are the typical flora of north-eastern europe, exactly where North_european/Atlantic_Baltic components are modal.
Yet the Celto-Italic words seem to be somewhat different from the Baltic/Slavic/Germanic, but still similar. (I'm not so skilled yet in linguistics)

These languages seem to have unrelated words:

Basque: urki
Finnish: koivu
Spanish: abedul
Romanian: mesteacăn
Turkish: huş ağacı
Hungarian: nyírfa, vesszőkorbács

ElHorsto
03-08-12, 10:47
Basque: urki
Spanish: abedul


Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

Taranis
03-08-12, 11:37
There seems to exist an interesting word for birch trees which is common among all major IE languages:

Germanic, Slavic, Baltic:

Germanic: Berko
Old Prussian: Berse
Lith.:Berlas
Slavic: Bereza

Celto-Italic:

Irish: Beith
Galician: Bidueiro
Italian: Betulla
Latin: Betulis

Birches are the typical flora of north-eastern europe, exactly where North_european/Atlantic_Baltic components are modal.
Yet the Celto-Italic words seem to be somewhat different from the Baltic/Slavic/Germanic, but still similar. (I'm not so skilled yet in linguistics)

These languages seem to have unrelated words:

Basque: urki
Finnish: koivu
Spanish: abedul
Romanian: mesteacăn
Turkish: huş ağacı
Hungarian: nyírfa, vesszőkorbács


Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

Hmm... "abedul" is likely from Latin "betula". You can also add Catalan "bedoll", French "bouleau" which derive too from Latin "betula".

In the Celtic context, there's also Welsh "bedu" and Breton "bezv", which together with Irish "beith" suggests a Proto-Celtic *betu-, which is, I think obviously, a cognate with Latin "betula".

As for a connection between the Celtic/Latin word and the Germanic/Balto-Slavic word, I'm sceptical about that. The ancestral form of the former is *gwit- (via the development *gw > *b), and the as such has cognates in Germanic (Anglo-Saxon "cwidu", English "cud", German "Kitt") and Indic (Sanskrit "jatu", meaning "gum"). The original word may have had the meaning of 'resin'.

To demonstrate that the above isn't all bogus, which one might think if one reads that out of context, you can also make a comparison between Irish "bean" ("woman"), English "queen" and Sanskrit "jani". ;-)

On the Basque word, the word is also found as "burki" late vascologist Trask certainly noted the similarity:


urki (B G HN), urkhi (L), burkhi (LN), bǘrkhi (Z), epurki (G), turki (B) n. ‘birch’ (bot.) Ca. 1800, but attested much earlier as an element in surnames and in toponyms, such
as Urkiola in Vizcaya.

Probably from *burki, OUO; common variant by P9. The last variant is mysterious, though M. (1961a: 260) suggests an assimilated intermediate form *kurki or *gurki. A
link has often been suggested to the Germanic word represented by English ‘birch’, but
there is no certain case of a Germanic word taken into Bq. without Romance mediation.

EDIT: I have moved this discussion into a separate thread. The original discussion can be still found here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27615-Is-quot-North-European-quot-a-hunter-gatherer-or-Steppic-component).

ElHorsto
03-08-12, 12:33
As for a connection between the Celtic/Latin word and the Germanic/Balto-Slavic word, I'm sceptical about that. The ancestral form of the former is *gwit- (via the development *gw > *b), and the as such has cognates in Germanic (Anglo-Saxon "cwidu", English "cud", German "Kitt") and Indic (Sanskrit "jatu", meaning "gum"). The original word may have had the meaning of 'resin'.


Very interesting, thanks! Possibly one might then speculate that Italic/Celtic speakers were not big experts for trees, because they had no special word for birches in particular, just for 'raisin'-trees in general. Possibly they did not live in the northern forests, which is not so surprising I think.

But the Germanic berko/birke/björk seems to represent yet a third branch, right? Because the word is a cognate of the satem berse/bereza, but yet it is centum because of the 'k' instead of 'z/s', right?



On the Basque word, the word is also found as "burki" late vascologist Trask certainly noted the similarity:


The basques never cease to surprise. 'Burki' and german 'Birke' sound very similar.

Taranis
03-08-12, 13:43
Very interesting, thanks! Possibly one might then speculate that Italic/Celtic speakers were not big experts for trees, because they had no special word for birches in particular, just for 'raisin'-trees in general. Possibly they did not live in the northern forests, which is not so surprising I think.

No, I meant resin (German "Harz"). Not raisins. ;-) And it's actually a very good description for the tree. It would actually be interesting to post a more extensive list of tree names for various languages here.


But the Germanic berko/birke/björk seems to represent yet a third branch, right? Because the word is a cognate of the satem berse/bereza, but yet it is centum because of the 'k' instead of 'z/s', right?

I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-. In my opinion the Albanian word "bredh" is also a cognate of this, but the word means 'fir' or 'spruce' instead.


The basques never cease to surprise. 'Burki' and german 'Birke' sound very similar.

Yes certainly, but the problem is convincingly demonstrating a link. The development *g > *k is uniquely Germanic (part of Grimm's Law), so the question is really explaining the /k/ in Basque.

EDIT:

back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

Maciamo
03-08-12, 15:56
Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

ElHorsto
03-08-12, 20:10
No, I meant resin (German "Harz"). Not raisins. ;-) And it's actually a very good description for the tree.


Right, resin of course. I understood what you meant, I just introduced a typo, sorry. My point was that a word which describes resin-producing trees is more general than a word for birch-trees in particular, hence assuming a less differentiated vocabulary for particular northern trees in celtic-italic. But of course, this assumption has yet to be checked by us for different trees.



It would actually be interesting to post a more extensive list of tree names for various languages here.


Yes, definitely. Some maps showing the distribution of certain trees would be helpful as well, ideally for ancient flora, since the climate might have changed. The presence or lack of mediterranean or steppe flora in certain languages would be especially interesting. Maybe I'll have time later to research more.



back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

Interesting.



Yes certainly, but the problem is convincingly demonstrating a link. The development *g > *k is uniquely Germanic (part of Grimm's Law), so the question is really explaining the /k/ in Basque.


I think almost every modern language must have aquired a word for any tree meanwhile, at least by borrowing. Languages like Latin, Arabic, or today English, are very prone to be lenders of new words due to fashion and popularity. Loan words might be indicative for an initial vocabulary gap. So maybe urki/burki is a loan from germanic (or related proto languages) due to a vocabulary gap for birches in basque. Still strange, because actually latin rather than germanic borrowings should be expected for the basque language.

zanipolo
03-08-12, 21:13
I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

interesting......northern italian word is biola and/or bedol

bedol, similar to catalan with a single L

ElHorsto
05-08-12, 14:01
I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-.

According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch , *bherg´ (*bherəg) means "white, bright; to shine". That is a strong hint that the designation of birches was genuine and specific in proto-IE from the beginning, as opposed to a later adapted meaning of a more general or different word for trees, because only birches are white colored trees.

MOESAN
06-08-12, 23:58
I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

'bouleau'
for the origin of words you are right -
for the word evolution I think details are different: no inversion of vowels here ('bouleau'):
betul- >> beoul- >> boul- & diminutive suffix '-el' >> '-eau' (masculine)
that does not contradict your global meaning

ElHorsto
07-08-12, 00:52
More translations for 'birch' that seem to be indo-european:

Bengali: Bārca
Gujarati: Bhūrjavr̥kṣa


The basque word 'urki' could have a link to Georgian:

Georgian: arqis

Selwyn Greenfrith
07-11-12, 22:07
List of British tree names...


Sallow
Firn
Whitethorn
Wild
Wayfaring
Withy
Dogwood
Redwood
Quickbeam
Rodenbeam
Whispering tree
Witchbane
Wingnut
Hemlock
Beech
Elm
Larch
Yew
Holly
Birch
Wych
Fir
Ash
Alder
Aspen
Apple
Cherry
Walnut
Blackthorn
Sloe
Plum
Wild
Linden
Lime
Elder
Maple
Fig
Hawthorne
Hazel
Hornbeam
Chestnut
Rowan
Buckthorn
Spindle
Strawberry
Wayfaring
Whitebeam
Mulberry
Heaven
Pear
Box
Chokers


most oft endfasts seem to be:

-thorn(e), -horn, (the build)

-wood, (its worth)

-beam, (the old word for what it straightforwardly is)

-nut, -berry, (as foodstuff)

-bane, (its healing properties)

-tree, (nowadays word for what it straightfordwardly is)

Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

MOESAN
08-11-12, 12:45
I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

BOULEAU << BOULEL (-EL diminutive) << BOUL << *BEDOUL/BEDOL considered in France as from vulgar late latin from GAULISH what would make sense as the I-E root wouldn't have given a B- word in italic

sparkey
08-11-12, 18:50
List of British tree names...

You mean English tree names? Or just English names of British trees? Because Welsh names for trees tend to have little overlap with English names for trees, in my experience. And some that you list, like redwoods, aren't native to Britain.


Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

I don't know many of them, and have had to look up most, but I'm finding that a lot of the German names have shared etymology with the English, whether that's due to proto-Germanic connection or later shared naming:



English
German
Connection?


Sallow
Salweide
yes


Fern
Farne
yes


Whitethorn
Weißdorn
yes


Wayfaring tree
Wolliger Schneeball
no


Dogwood
Hartriegel
no


Redwood
Mammutbaum
no


Quickbeam (usually Rowan)
Quickenbaum (usually Mehlbeeren)
yes


Wingnut
Flügelnüsse
yes


Hemlock
Shierling
no


Beech
Buche
yes


Elm
Ulme
yes


Larch
Lärche
yes


Yew
Eibe
yes


Holly
Hülsdorn (usually Stechpalme)
yes


Birch
Birke
yes


Wych
Bergulme
no


Fir
Tanne
no


Ash
Esche
yes


Alder
Erle
yes


Aspen
Espe
yes


Apple
Apfel (or Appel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speyer_line))

yes


Cherry
Kirsche
sort of


Walnut
Walnüsse
yes


Blackthorn (or Sloe)
Schwarzdorn (usually Schlehdorn)
yes



...etc., that's all I have time for now.

Diurpaneus
08-11-12, 20:09
1. I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-. In my opinion the Albanian word "bredh" is also a cognate of this, but the word means 'fir' or 'spruce' instead.



2. back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

1.Cognates of Albanian 'bredh'


Romanian 'brad'
meaning 'fir'
Sanskrit 'bhadra[ka]'


http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=fir+tree&direction=AU



2.Both came from Latin 'mastichinus'[gummy], Sicilian 'mastigona'[piney thistle] is a related word.

Taranis
08-11-12, 23:48
Sparkey, I didn't know that you speak German! :smile:

I have a quick addition regarding cherry / Kirsche, this is a borrowing from Latin "cerasium". The English word is almost certainly via French mediation.

Yetos
09-11-12, 01:56
we have 2 trees the Κερανος and the Κερασος.

Κερανος Keranos Ceranos modern Greek κρανια krania (Lat Cornacae)
the red-brown tree known from Homer in Odyssee,
Pausanias also say about the hard wood of the tree.
Theophrastos names the wood as hard as Κερας (horn)
herodotos also about Lycian bow.

so Κερανος means hard as horn-corn wood.

Κερασος kerasos-Cerasos
The home land of Prunus is South Caucas, and enter surely fast in ancient world.

I don't know if the word is from the homeland of cherry tree (S Caucas-minor asia) (I mean S Caucas languages)
But I know that the name is after the city Κερασους (Turkish Giresun) in Pontus black sea
Κερασους means the city at the cape, Keras- Kersos = cape- horn, solid rock soil (modern Gr Xερσος Ηersos)
the Latin Cerasium is after the city Κερασος-ουντος the old city before Pharnakeia, from which cherries spread the 7th century BC all over Europe.

Interesting is that ancient Greek call the cherry also as Βυσσον (bysson = dark red)

Now about the words concerning mastich,
In Greek we see 3 kind of plantation juices.
1 is ρητινη resin mainly the yellow-brown from pinales trees or prunus etc.
2 is υγρα χυμοι all the water like juices
3 is μαστιχη all the white colour juices, like the σχινος Tree (Pistacia) Ιξος Tree (Viscum) κιχωριο-ραδικι (Cichorium)
Mastiche probably has to do with Mastos (woman's Breast-tits) and means the milk of the tree.

probably concerning that many people drink or eat a syrup made by birches we probably speak that gave the name 'Breast-tree' or 'milking tree'
Although last is a think, it is possible that Mastos (breast-tits) and Mastiche may have the same root and meaning,
since the terminology mastiche at least in Greek means the white colour juice (milk) of plants

to be more specific στηθος = breast for men and women,
mastos is only for women. (search etymology of mastitis. mastalgia)
mastiche is the white juice or resin (milk) of plants.

and I like some thoughs of the linguists here for the difference in mammal mimik (kurdi) mastos and Breast and simmilar of The Northen IE.
Does anyone know or can guess the Thracian word for breast?

PS have someone thought that Birch tree might also mean breast tree?

Sennevini
09-11-12, 02:36
Okay, this is a good excercise not only for translating tree names, but also
for learning the more obscure trees in my own language.
Here some Dutch tree names, enjoy:

Sallow - (=Willow) Wilg
Firn - varen
Whitethorn - acacia
Wayfaring - wollige sneeuwbal
Withy - knotwilg
Dogwood - kornoelje
Redwood - ? (this isn't an origianlly European tree)
Rowan - lijsterbes (litt. lark-berry)
Wingnut - vleugelnootboom
Hemlock - scheerling
Beech - beuk
Elm - iep/olm
Larch - lariks/lork
Yew - venijnboom
Holly - hulst
Birch - berk
Fir - spar
Ash - es
Alder - els
Aspen - esp
Apple - appel
Cherry - kers
Walnut - walnoot
Blackthorn - sleedoorn
Sloe - sleedoorn
Plum - pruim
Linden - linde
Lime - limoen
Elder - vlierboom
Maple - esdoorn
Fig - vijg
Hawthorne - meidoorn
Hazel - hazelaar
Hornbeam - haagbeuk
Chestnut - kastanje
Buckthorn - wegedoorn
Spindle - kardinaalsmuts (litt. cardinal's hat)
Strawberry - aardbei
Mulberry - moerbei
Pear - peer (from Latin)
Box - buxus

Sennevini
09-11-12, 13:08
Did I miss the oak?
it is 'eik' in Dutch.


PS have someone thought that Birch tree might also mean breast tree?

This can not be, as breast is from Indo-European *bhreu-,
and birch is from Indo-European *bhreHg/bhrHg, a different root, which
may be more connected to the "bright" color of the birch bark.

MOESAN
09-11-12, 19:59
english
french
breton





(collective w;)














Oak
chêne
derw


Salow/willow
saule
haleg


Hawthorne
aubépine
spern-gwenn


Alder
aulne
gwern


Birch
bouleau
bezw


Hornbeam
charme
chalm???


Chestnut tree
châtaigner
kistin


Dogwood
cornouiller



Maple
érable



Firn? Fern?
fougère
raden


Strawberry -tree
fraisier
plant-sivi


Ash tree
frêne
onn/oulm-gwenn ???


Beech
hêtre
faou


Holly
houx
kelen


Yew
if
ivin


Horse chesnut tree
marronnier
kistin-Spagn/kistin-moc'h


Larch
mélèze
melwez / gwez-tourmantin


Hazel wood
noisetier
kraoñ-kelvez / knaou-garzh


Walnut tree
noyer
kraoñ-gall


Elm
orme
oulm


Sloe
prunelle
irin


Blackthorn
prunellier
irin


Plum tree
prunier
prun


Fir tree
sapin
sapin/sapr


Rowan tree
sorbier
hiliber


Elder
sureau
skaw


Linden / Lime
tilleul
tilh / oulm-Spagn


Aspen
tremble
kren




















most oft endfasts seem to be:
in breton, very often the fruits have the same name





as the tree they come from – sometimes, people



-thorn(e), -horn, (the build)
put the word gwezenn (sing.) or gwez (coll.)





before it -



-wood, (its worth)
ex: (Si-Pl) kistinenn / kistin (fruit)





kistinenn / kistin (tree)



-beam, (the old word for what it straightforwardly is)
gwezenn-gistin / gwez-kistin









-nut, -berry, (as foodstuff)










-bane, (its healing properties)










-tree, (nowadays word for what it straightfordwardly is)










Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

MOESAN
09-11-12, 20:02
érable (maple): breton : 'skaw-gwrac'h'

sparkey
09-11-12, 23:24
Adding Cornish names to Moesan's Breton table out of curiosity, after finding a pretty good compilation (http://www.cornishhedges.co.uk/PDF/corglossy.pdf) of words for trees and hedges in Cornish. It's interesting to see similarities...



English
Cornish
Breton (per Moesan)


Oak
dar

derw


Salow/willow
helagon
haleg


Hawthorne
spern
spern-gwenn


Alder
gwernam
gwern


Birch
bedewen
bezw


Strawberry -tree
seavy
plant-sivi


Ash tree
onnen
onn/oulm-gwenn ???


Holly
kelinan
kelen


Hazel wood
collan
kraoñ-kelvez / knaou-garzh


Elm
elaw (I've also heard elowen which has become a Cornish girl's name)

oulm


Blackthorn
dreyn, drannack, or (probably cognate to Breton) yrynen

irin


Rowan tree
kerdhynen
hiliber


Elder
scawan
skaw


Linden / Lime
kalx
tilh / oulm-Spagn

MOESAN
10-11-12, 00:04
Thanks Sparkey - I saw you used the singular forms (singulatives upon collectives very often) in place of my collective or plural ones - I saw also you used the one of the three cornish spelling that tries to approach the late cornish speakers (terminal speakers); we can see the hesitation for the equivalent of welsh 'yn(n)'/-'en(n)' and breton '-enn' singulatives: this cornish shows '-en'/'-an'/'-on' for the same thing... the two others spellings, more 'scholar like', are simpler, closer to breton and welsh, it is not to say they help better to guess the genuine pronunciation -
as you say, the shared origin is very evident for the most of the names -
I'll try to put welsh tomorrow
nos vad deoc'h!

MOESAN
10-11-12, 15:55
english

breton

welsh






Oak
derw
derw



Salow/willow
haleg
helyg



Hawthorne
spern-gwenn
draen-gwyn



Alder
gwern
gwern



Birch
bezw
beddw



Hornbeam
chalm???
oestrwydd



Chestnut tree
kistin
castan(wydd?)



Dogwood





Maple

masarn /gwniol



Firn? Fern?
raden
rhedyn



Strawberry -tree
plant-sivi
mefis / syfi



Ash tree
onn/oulm-gwenn ???
onn



Beech
faou
ffawydd



Holly
kelen
celyn(n)



Yew
ivin
yw



Horse chesnut tree
kistin-Spagn/kistin-moc'h




Larch
melwez / gwez-tourmantin
llarwydd



Hazel wood
kraoñ-kelvez / knaou-garzh
collen



Walnut tree
kraoñ-gall
cnau Ffrengig



Elm
oulm
llwyf



Sloe
irin
eirin du / draen du



Blackthorn
irin
draen du



Plum tree
prun / irin
eirin



Fir tree
sapin/sapr
ffynidwydd



Rowan tree (mountain ash?)
hiliber
cerddin / pren criafol



Elder
skaw
ysgaw



Linden / Lime
tilh / oulm-Spagn
pisgwydd / palalwyf



Aspen
kren
aethen?

MOESAN
10-11-12, 15:57
ending -wydd in welsh is for -gwydd (treeS), collective for singulative gwyddyn(n) = coeden(n) - breton: gwez/gwezenn

sparkey
11-11-12, 01:29
What is the etymology of Breton "hiliber"? Welsh "cerddin" and Cornish "kerdhynen" are obviously cognates, but "hiliber"?

Armoricain
11-11-12, 12:13
Bonjour Sparkey et excusez moi de repondre en français, mais mon anglais est vraiment trop mauvais.
Mais une chance mon breton est meilleur.
J'utillise très souvent un dictionnaire, breton, qui est certainement l'un des plus complets :Le Favereau.
On y trouve beaucoup de comparaisons entre les differentes langues celtiques et beaucoup d'étymologie
On peut y lire, je resume: Hili ber ou ili ber, en vieux breton Elilub : Etiar- ijar

Un trouve un toponyme hillibrennou, qui viendrait mais l'auteur n'en est pas certain de Hili et Prenn
Prenn- lui, bien connu qui signifie arbre d'après le glossaire de Vienne: Prenne = arborem grandem
Voila, si cela peut vous aider.

MOESAN
11-11-12, 16:44
Bonjour Sparkey et excusez moi de repondre en français, mais mon anglais est vraiment trop mauvais.
Mais une chance mon breton est meilleur.
J'utillise très souvent un dictionnaire, breton, qui est certainement l'un des plus complets :Le Favereau.
On y trouve beaucoup de comparaisons entre les differentes langues celtiques et beaucoup d'étymologie
On peut y lire, je resume: Hili ber ou ili ber, en vieux breton Elilub : Etiar- ijar

Un trouve un toponyme hillibrennou, qui viendrait mais l'auteur n'en est pas certain de Hili et Prenn
Prenn- lui, bien connu qui signifie arbre d'après le glossaire de Vienne: Prenne = arborem grandem
Voila, si cela peut vous aider.

thanks to Armoricain
'sorbier' is a specie of trees that encompasses 'alisier', 'cormier' in french, trees that produces comestible (eatable) fruits -
for breton 'hiliber' (sing. 'hiliberenn' ) seams the bad form of 'iliber' countaining 'ili' (berries) and per(-enn)= 'pear' ('birn'), a fruit - sometimes 'perili', 'pirili' - I suppose it is a generic term, not too precise (lost of the previous word shared with welsh and cornish -
from the same element, french 'cornouiller' : breton 'gwez(enn) ili-ho'
'prenn' in modern breton has the meaning of "timber", and 'pren(n)(-enn)' "tree" or "wood" or "timber" in welsh -

Yetos
11-11-12, 21:01
ok I start a big effort here, maybe not even finish in 1 post,












English
Ancient Greek
Modern greek
description


acacia
akkakia
Ακκακια
From Ακις - ακανθος = thorn


oak
ΔΡΥΣ
Drys balanidia
Druid take their name after that tree
Balanidia after Balanis (dryad name of Daphnaie nymphs- Ilex)


River reeds
Syrinx
(Σωλην)
kalamia
Kalamindar is the Thracian name
Comparing with Greek σωλην = pipe


laurel
daphne
dafne



Willow (salix alba)
?
Itea - Itia
Can’t find source in ancient Greek


Willow (Salix)
Κλαια (oreiad-Nymph)
κλαιουσα




hawthorn
krataigos
xagkathia
Akis – a(g)kanthos = thorn
Sacred to wedding ceremony


alder
klethra
σκληθρα



birch
Βετουλη* (vetule-Bitule)
Σημυδα
Semuda-simida
*the ancient name Βετουλη is mention in
δημητρακου Lexicon
Hederici Lexicon,
I could not find any text.


hornbeam
?
Γαυρος
gauros-gavros



Chestnut tree
Καστανεα
Kastanea
Kαστανεα-ια



Dogwood
Keranos
Kraneia *
Krania
* Kraneia is a known (h)amadryad daughter of Oxylos


Maple
Σφενδαμος
Sphendamos-sphendamos
Σφενδαμη



Fern
Πτερ-η
Pter-e
Φτρερη



strawberry
Χαμαικερασον *
Φραουλα fraoyla
Fragaria vesca,
the wild one


Ash-tree
Φραξος (male)
Μελια
In ash trees lives the nyphs Μελιαι-Μελιαδες, modern name is after them.


Beech tree
Φηγος Fegos-Figos
Οξια*

Phigaleia (oreiad Nymph)
Οξια
Oxia
*After Makedonian timber-river Axios,
the shaped with axe (axis) wood, ready to burn, compare wood is (α)Ξυλο Xulo-Xilo


Holly
Υλος Ylos-Ilos*
(fm) Ylh
Purnaria
*I find the term in some lexicon as Υλη but means wood for burn υλη.
Υλοτομος = wood cutter for winter’s fire


(Holly )
Ιξος Ixos
Γκι gi



yew
Πρινος
πριναρια



hazel
Κορυς (= helmet)
Λεπτοκαρυον (=thin shell nut)
Λεπτοκαρυα
Φουντουκια* (Funduk)
*after Ottoman’s Puntuk(from Pontus) Modern Turkish Findik


Wallnut
Καρυα (karua-Karia the Nymph-Dryad) means hard
καρυδια



elm
Πτελεα Ptelea
Φτελια - λευκα



White poplar
Λευκη leuke (dryad)
λευκα



Black poplar
Heliada
Λευκα (καβακι)



Sloe, blackthorn
? *
Κορομελια ,
Τζιρνικια,
Τζανερια,
Αγριο-δαμασκηνια (wild-damson)
*since is μελια the ancient name is probably among the meliades nymphs or dryads


Almond
Αμυγδαλεα amygdalea
αμυγδαλια



plum
Προυμνη Proumne-Prumni (theophrastos)
δαμασκηνια



Fir tree
Πιτυς (Pitys-Pitis) Ελατη etc
Ελατη general name for abies family



Bay laurel tree
Δαφνη dafnis (oreiad)
dafni



rowan
Ooν (Oon)
Σορβο



elder
Ακταια (Theophrastos) (σ)αμμοβοτρυς
Κουφοξυλια
Σαμπουκος (Sabuca)
* ακταια means on the beach, near sea sand,
Βοτρυς is a description that describes the plant’s fruit formation,
(sammoBotrys) means the Botrys style plant that lives at the sand,


Linden
Φιλυρα (dryad)
Φιλυρα



Fig tree
Συκεα
Συκια



Plane tree
Πλατανος Πλατανος
Πλατανος



Quinse tree
Κυδωνεα
Κυδωνια



Apple
Μηλεα
Μηλια
After meliades Nymphs


Pear tree
Απιδεα
Απιδια
Αχλαδια



Pistacia
σχινος
Μαστιχη



Pistacia
Ταραμυθια
Τριμυθια



Myrtle
Μυρσινη Μυρτος
Μυρτια



Mulberry tree
Morea (hamadryad)
Μουρια



grape
Κληματις
Αμπελος (daphnae nymph)
αμπελι





B.)
The nymphs of the trees

Dryas general trees
Dryada of relative with oak tree

αμαδρυας hamadryad means the lower in height (ground plants) living next to Dryades

Melades the one who live in Fruit trees, in Orchands
amameliades the one who live in the ground under the Meliades Nymphs (compare Greek χαμομηλι)

Ορειαδες oreiads the one who live in mountain forest, like pine trees

Κισσιαι The Ivy (kissos) like plants


etc

Selwyn Greenfrith
16-11-12, 05:33
Thanks for righting the miswording - it was indeed meant to readoff something like: English names of British trees...

The fuller heading for Wych is: Wych Elm...so mayhap a kind of for Bergulme?

I take it you mean: Schierling not: Shierling?

sparkey
16-11-12, 18:36
The fuller heading for Wych is: Wych Elm...so mayhap a kind of for Bergulme?

I think both are fairly specific in referring to Ulmus glabra, so only "kind of" in that they know it's an elm in both languages. The German etymology is pretty obvious... berg + ulme... but the English is less obvious. I had to look it up to find that wych is a cognate with wicker, both coming from the O.E. wice, meaning pliant.


I take it you mean: Schierling not: Shierling?

Yup... a typo from an English speaker not used to putting the "c" there for that sound. :embarassed:

MOESAN
13-12-12, 12:36
I put here some gaelic translations for some trees, tu feed this almost dead thread -
maybe it would be of no use? -
all the way, it is a dictionary "work" because I do not speak gaelic even if I tried to learn it (or them) some years ago and can recognize some structures or derivations ... so some mistake could be occurred (I hope not)



english
irish gaelic
scottish gaelic




















Oak
dair (darach)
darag, darach


Salow/willow
saileach
seileach


Hawthorne
crann sceiche
sgitheach


Alder
fearna
feàrna


Birch
beith
beithe


Hornbeam
?
?


Chestnut tree
cnô capail castàn
geanm-chnô


Dogwood
?
?


Maple
mailp



Fern
raithneach
raineach, roineach


Strawberry(#-tree)
sù talùn
sùbh-làir


Ash tree
fuinseog
uinnseann ?


Beech
feà, faibhile
crann-faibhile


Holly
cuileann
cuileann


Yew
iùr
iubhar, iuthar


Horse chesnut tree




Larch
learôg
guibhas-learaig


Hazel wood
coll
calltunn


Walnut tree
crann gallchnô
geinm-chnô


Elm
leamhàn
leamhan


Sloe
draighean dubh
draighneag


Blackthorn
draighean dubh
?


Plum tree
crann plumaî
?


Fir tree
giùis
giubhas


Rowan tree (mountain ash?)
caorthann
?


Elder
crann troim
craobh fhearna


Linden tree / Lime
teile, crann teile
teile


Aspen
?
critheach (critheann)














some gaelic speakers could confirm or correct?

MOESAN
13-12-12, 12:37
you can notice the scottish gaelic spelling is more conservative than the irish one