European Tree Names (offtopic from NE autosomal component)

Taranis said:

- concerning the Saami, they are speakers of Uralic languages (the language family that also includes Finnish, Estonian and much more distantly, Hungarian). The Uralic languages are generally thought to be Mesolithic (or, lacking that, at least, the language of hunter-gatherers), but there's considerable reason to assume that the Uralic languages were not native to Europe. In the past there have been attempts to link the Uralic languages to the Turkic languages (Uralo-Altaic), and more recently (and perhaps more fruitful), the Yukaghir languages of Siberia. Regardless of this, Haplogroup N (which is usually associated with the Uralic-speaking peoples) did evidently originate somewhere in Northeast Asia, and it would seem thus likely that the Proto-Uralic peoples arrived from the east across the taiga zone some time during the Mesolithic. If this is the case, then the Proto-Uralic peoples would have intermixed with the native hunter-gatherers of Europe (who, if we follow the idea, may have been bearers of the North European component).

- regarding the question of the Indo-Europeans, it should be pointed out that the Proto-Indo-European language is merely a reconstruction of a (essentially hypothetical) "point" from which all descendant branches of the proto-language (Proto-Italo-Celtic, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Armenian, Proto-Indo-Iranic, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Tocharian etc.) all diverged. This point is usually assumed to have been in the late(st) Neolithic (most importantly, the Proto-Indo-Europeans are usually thought to have been in possession of wheeled vehicles). In reality, it would not have been a single point but a rather long time period (probably spanning centuries), and the Proto-Indo-Europeans must have had a history before that, one that (in however way) must go back into the early Neolithic (and Mesolithic before that). What this means for this context is that the Proto-Indo-Europeans may very well have been bearers of the North European component as a result of their pre-history.

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There seems to exist an interesting word for birch trees which is common among all major IE languages:

Germanic, Slavic, Baltic:

Germanic: Berko
Old Prussian: Berse
Lith.:Berlas
Slavic: Bereza

Celto-Italic:

Irish: Beith
Galician: Bidueiro
Italian: Betulla
Latin: Betulis

Birches are the typical flora of north-eastern europe, exactly where North_european/Atlantic_Baltic components are modal.
Yet the Celto-Italic words seem to be somewhat different from the Baltic/Slavic/Germanic, but still similar. (I'm not so skilled yet in linguistics)

These languages seem to have unrelated words:

Basque: urki
Finnish: koivu
Spanish: abedul
Romanian: mesteacăn
Turkish: huş ağacı
Hungarian: nyírfa, vesszőkorbács

ElHorsto said:

Basque: urki
Spanish: abedul

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Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

ElHorsto said:

There seems to exist an interesting word for birch trees which is common among all major IE languages:

Germanic, Slavic, Baltic:

Germanic: Berko
Old Prussian: Berse
Lith.:Berlas
Slavic: Bereza

Celto-Italic:

Irish: Beith
Galician: Bidueiro
Italian: Betulla
Latin: Betulis

Birches are the typical flora of north-eastern europe, exactly where North_european/Atlantic_Baltic components are modal.
Yet the Celto-Italic words seem to be somewhat different from the Baltic/Slavic/Germanic, but still similar. (I'm not so skilled yet in linguistics)

These languages seem to have unrelated words:

Basque: urki
Finnish: koivu
Spanish: abedul
Romanian: mesteacăn
Turkish: huş ağacı
Hungarian: nyírfa, vesszőkorbács

Click to expand...

ElHorsto said:

Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

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Hmm... "abedul" is likely from Latin "betula". You can also add Catalan "bedoll", French "bouleau" which derive too from Latin "betula".

In the Celtic context, there's also Welsh "bedu" and Breton "bezv", which together with Irish "beith" suggests a Proto-Celtic *betu-, which is, I think obviously, a cognate with Latin "betula".

As for a connection between the Celtic/Latin word and the Germanic/Balto-Slavic word, I'm sceptical about that. The ancestral form of the former is *gwit- (via the development *gw > *b), and the as such has cognates in Germanic (Anglo-Saxon "cwidu", English "cud", German "Kitt") and Indic (Sanskrit "jatu", meaning "gum"). The original word may have had the meaning of 'resin'.

To demonstrate that the above isn't all bogus, which one might think if one reads that out of context, you can also make a comparison between Irish "bean" ("woman"), English "queen" and Sanskrit "jani".

On the Basque word, the word is also found as "burki" late vascologist Trask certainly noted the similarity:

urki (B G HN), urkhi (L), burkhi (LN), bǘrkhi (Z), epurki (G), turki (B) n. ‘birch’ (bot.) Ca. 1800, but attested much earlier as an element in surnames and in toponyms, such
as Urkiola in Vizcaya.

Probably from *burki, OUO; common variant by P9. The last variant is mysterious, though M. (1961a: 260) suggests an assimilated intermediate form *kurki or *gurki. A
link has often been suggested to the Germanic word represented by English ‘birch’, but
there is no certain case of a Germanic word taken into Bq. without Romance mediation.

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EDIT: I have moved this discussion into a separate thread. The original discussion can be still found here.

Taranis said:

As for a connection between the Celtic/Latin word and the Germanic/Balto-Slavic word, I'm sceptical about that. The ancestral form of the former is *gwit- (via the development *gw > *b), and the as such has cognates in Germanic (Anglo-Saxon "cwidu", English "cud", German "Kitt") and Indic (Sanskrit "jatu", meaning "gum"). The original word may have had the meaning of 'resin'.

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Very interesting, thanks! Possibly one might then speculate that Italic/Celtic speakers were not big experts for trees, because they had no special word for birches in particular, just for 'raisin'-trees in general. Possibly they did not live in the northern forests, which is not so surprising I think.

But the Germanic berko/birke/björk seems to represent yet a third branch, right? Because the word is a cognate of the satem berse/bereza, but yet it is centum because of the 'k' instead of 'z/s', right?

On the Basque word, the word is also found as "burki" late vascologist Trask certainly noted the similarity:

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The basques never cease to surprise. 'Burki' and german 'Birke' sound very similar.

ElHorsto said:

Very interesting, thanks! Possibly one might then speculate that Italic/Celtic speakers were not big experts for trees, because they had no special word for birches in particular, just for 'raisin'-trees in general. Possibly they did not live in the northern forests, which is not so surprising I think.

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No, I meant resin (German "Harz"). Not raisins. And it's actually a very good description for the tree. It would actually be interesting to post a more extensive list of tree names for various languages here.

But the Germanic berko/birke/björk seems to represent yet a third branch, right? Because the word is a cognate of the satem berse/bereza, but yet it is centum because of the 'k' instead of 'z/s', right?

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I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-. In my opinion the Albanian word "bredh" is also a cognate of this, but the word means 'fir' or 'spruce' instead.

The basques never cease to surprise. 'Burki' and german 'Birke' sound very similar.

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Yes certainly, but the problem is convincingly demonstrating a link. The development *g > *k is uniquely Germanic (part of Grimm's Law), so the question is really explaining the /k/ in Basque.

EDIT:

back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

ElHorsto said:

Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

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I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

Taranis said:

No, I meant resin (German "Harz"). Not raisins. And it's actually a very good description for the tree.

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Right, resin of course. I understood what you meant, I just introduced a typo, sorry. My point was that a word which describes resin-producing trees is more general than a word for birch-trees in particular, hence assuming a less differentiated vocabulary for particular northern trees in celtic-italic. But of course, this assumption has yet to be checked by us for different trees.

It would actually be interesting to post a more extensive list of tree names for various languages here.

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Yes, definitely. Some maps showing the distribution of certain trees would be helpful as well, ideally for ancient flora, since the climate might have changed. The presence or lack of mediterranean or steppe flora in certain languages would be especially interesting. Maybe I'll have time later to research more.

back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

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Interesting.

Yes certainly, but the problem is convincingly demonstrating a link. The development *g > *k is uniquely Germanic (part of Grimm's Law), so the question is really explaining the /k/ in Basque.

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I think almost every modern language must have aquired a word for any tree meanwhile, at least by borrowing. Languages like Latin, Arabic, or today English, are very prone to be lenders of new words due to fashion and popularity. Loan words might be indicative for an initial vocabulary gap. So maybe urki/burki is a loan from germanic (or related proto languages) due to a vocabulary gap for birches in basque. Still strange, because actually latin rather than germanic borrowings should be expected for the basque language.

Maciamo said:

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

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interesting......northern italian word is biola and/or bedol

bedol, similar to catalan with a single L

Taranis said:

I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-.

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According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch , *bherg´ (*bherəg) means "white, bright; to shine". That is a strong hint that the designation of birches was genuine and specific in proto-IE from the beginning, as opposed to a later adapted meaning of a more general or different word for trees, because only birches are white colored trees.

Maciamo said:

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

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'bouleau'
for the origin of words you are right -
for the word evolution I think details are different: no inversion of vowels here ('bouleau'):
betul- >> beoul- >> boul- & diminutive suffix '-el' >> '-eau' (masculine)
that does not contradict your global meaning

More translations for 'birch' that seem to be indo-european:

Bengali: Bārca
Gujarati: Bhūrjavr̥kṣa


The basque word 'urki' could have a link to Georgian:

Georgian: arqis

List of British tree names...


Sallow
Firn
Whitethorn
Wild
Wayfaring
Withy
Dogwood
Redwood
Quickbeam
Rodenbeam
Whispering tree
Witchbane
Wingnut
Hemlock
Beech
Elm
Larch
Yew
Holly
Birch
Wych
Fir
Ash
Alder
Aspen
Apple
Cherry
Walnut
Blackthorn
Sloe
Plum
Wild
Linden
Lime
Elder
Maple
Fig
Hawthorne
Hazel
Hornbeam
Chestnut
Rowan
Buckthorn
Spindle
Strawberry
Wayfaring
Whitebeam
Mulberry
Heaven
Pear
Box
Chokers


most oft endfasts seem to be:

-thorn(e), -horn, (the build)

-wood, (its worth)

-beam, (the old word for what it straightforwardly is)

-nut, -berry, (as foodstuff)

-bane, (its healing properties)

-tree, (nowadays word for what it straightfordwardly is)

Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

Maciamo said:

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

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BOULEAU << BOULEL (-EL diminutive) << BOUL << *BEDOUL/BEDOL considered in France as from vulgar late latin from GAULISH what would make sense as the I-E root wouldn't have given a B- word in italic

Selwyn Greenfrith said:

List of British tree names...

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You mean English tree names? Or just English names of British trees? Because Welsh names for trees tend to have little overlap with English names for trees, in my experience. And some that you list, like redwoods, aren't native to Britain.

Selwyn Greenfrith said:

Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

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I don't know many of them, and have had to look up most, but I'm finding that a lot of the German names have shared etymology with the English, whether that's due to proto-Germanic connection or later shared naming:


...etc., that's all I have time for now.

Taranis said:

1. I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-. In my opinion the Albanian word "bredh" is also a cognate of this, but the word means 'fir' or 'spruce' instead.



2. back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

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1.Cognates of Albanian 'bredh'


Romanian 'brad'
meaning 'fir'
Sanskrit 'bhadra[ka]'


http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=fir+tree&direction=AU



2.Both came from Latin 'mastichinus'[gummy], Sicilian 'mastigona'[piney thistle] is a related word.

Sparkey, I didn't know that you speak German!

I have a quick addition regarding cherry / Kirsche, this is a borrowing from Latin "cerasium". The English word is almost certainly via French mediation.

we have 2 trees the Κερανος and the Κερασος.

Κερανος Keranos Ceranos modern Greek κρανια krania (Lat Cornacae)
the red-brown tree known from Homer in Odyssee,
Pausanias also say about the hard wood of the tree.
Theophrastos names the wood as hard as Κερας (horn)
herodotos also about Lycian bow.

so Κερανος means hard as horn-corn wood.

Κερασος kerasos-Cerasos
The home land of Prunus is South Caucas, and enter surely fast in ancient world.

I don't know if the word is from the homeland of cherry tree (S Caucas-minor asia) (I mean S Caucas languages)
But I know that the name is after the city Κερασους (Turkish Giresun) in Pontus black sea
Κερασους means the city at the cape, Keras- Kersos = cape- horn, solid rock soil (modern Gr Xερσος Ηersos)
the Latin Cerasium is after the city Κερασος-ουντος the old city before Pharnakeia, from which cherries spread the 7th century BC all over Europe.

Interesting is that ancient Greek call the cherry also as Βυσσον (bysson = dark red)

Now about the words concerning mastich,
In Greek we see 3 kind of plantation juices.
1 is ρητινη resin mainly the yellow-brown from pinales trees or prunus etc.
2 is υγρα χυμοι all the water like juices
3 is μαστιχη all the white colour juices, like the σχινος Tree (Pistacia) Ιξος Tree (Viscum) κιχωριο-ραδικι (Cichorium)
Mastiche probably has to do with Mastos (woman's Breast-tits) and means the milk of the tree.

probably concerning that many people drink or eat a syrup made by birches we probably speak that gave the name 'Breast-tree' or 'milking tree'
Although last is a think, it is possible that Mastos (breast-tits) and Mastiche may have the same root and meaning,
since the terminology mastiche at least in Greek means the white colour juice (milk) of plants

to be more specific στηθος = breast for men and women,
mastos is only for women. (search etymology of mastitis. mastalgia)
mastiche is the white juice or resin (milk) of plants.

and I like some thoughs of the linguists here for the difference in mammal mimik (kurdi) mastos and Breast and simmilar of The Northen IE.
Does anyone know or can guess the Thracian word for breast?

PS have someone thought that Birch tree might also mean breast tree?

Okay, this is a good excercise not only for translating tree names, but also
for learning the more obscure trees in my own language.
Here some Dutch tree names, enjoy:

Sallow - (=Willow) Wilg
Firn - varen
Whitethorn - acacia
Wayfaring - wollige sneeuwbal
Withy - knotwilg
Dogwood - kornoelje
Redwood - ? (this isn't an origianlly European tree)
Rowan - lijsterbes (litt. lark-berry)
Wingnut - vleugelnootboom
Hemlock - scheerling
Beech - beuk
Elm - iep/olm
Larch - lariks/lork
Yew - venijnboom
Holly - hulst
Birch - berk
Fir - spar
Ash - es
Alder - els
Aspen - esp
Apple - appel
Cherry - kers
Walnut - walnoot
Blackthorn - sleedoorn
Sloe - sleedoorn
Plum - pruim
Linden - linde
Lime - limoen
Elder - vlierboom
Maple - esdoorn
Fig - vijg
Hawthorne - meidoorn
Hazel - hazelaar
Hornbeam - haagbeuk
Chestnut - kastanje
Buckthorn - wegedoorn
Spindle - kardinaalsmuts (litt. cardinal's hat)
Strawberry - aardbei
Mulberry - moerbei
Pear - peer (from Latin)
Box - buxus

Did I miss the oak?
it is 'eik' in Dutch.

PS have someone thought that Birch tree might also mean breast tree?

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This can not be, as breast is from Indo-European *bhreu-,
and birch is from Indo-European *bhreHg/bhrHg, a different root, which
may be more connected to the "bright" color of the birch bark.