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julia90
08-08-12, 21:12
Your opinions of italians

if you want to post photos of people please post only photos of famous people

Kardu
08-08-12, 22:17
Hmm, sorry, Julia, can't really agree with any of the statements :) And what's Celtic look?

julia90
08-08-12, 22:23
Hmm, sorry, Julia, can't really agree with any of the statements :) And what's Celtic look?

celtic look, pics of some northern italians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Gianni_Morandi.jpg/250px-Gianni_Morandi.jpg
http://www.radiomach5.com/programmi/newcds/concerti/nek_foto.jpg
http://cdn.blogosfere.it/faceblog/images/vasco%20rossi%20salute2.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/027GfRfcb2eTt/439x.jpg
http://ww2.rockit.it/rockit/immagini/pezzaliIN4.jpg
http://www.ivid.it/fotogallery/imagesearch/images/merz_alessia_vallettaattrice_012_jpg_bqiw.jpg
http://www.newnotizie.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tosi.jpg
http://www.sorrisi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/cover_roberto-bolle.jpg

julia90
08-08-12, 22:24
Hmm, sorry, Julia, can't really agree with any of the statements :) And what's Celtic look?

i've have this convinctions after some of my travelling all alnog the italian peninsula... this difference are a bit phenotypically, but mostly the more important are the behaviours.

And i don't want to say necessarly that one is negative or positive.. they are just different cultures..
i have mixed feeling, sometimes of the unity of italy... but some experiences made me rethink, we are just too different, and regional federalism should be the best solution.. i don't want to say secession, because it's too late now, also for the internal migrations

Kardu
08-08-12, 23:04
I am aware of many different phenotypes in Italy. For me Celtic is simply too vague term to be applied to physical characteristics. Germanic, Nordic, Middle Eastern, Alpine etc. are more or less ok, but I personally don't have a generalized picture of 'Celtic' in my head.
As for the differences, sure there are plenty of them, but this is normal for a big country.
For the last years I regularly visit different parts of Italy and must say that I am greatly fond of all the Italians despite the region :)

Knovas
08-08-12, 23:19
LOL

So you talk about the Iberian supposed inferiority complex and now it seems you care about what other people thinks concerning Italians. Amazing...

julia90
08-08-12, 23:30
LOL

So you talk about the Iberian supposed inferiority complex and now it seems you care about what other people thinks concerning Italians. Amazing...

well, altought southern italians aren't middle eastern, in this period i'm rethinking about our unity.. mostly for sociocultural big differences, i've seen during some of my trips all along italy.. i think we are too much different, the physical differences (that there are, but not extreme) are a slim barrier; the big barrier is the culture.. when staying in conctatct with southern italians in southern italy, i felt like a fish out of water, first when they spoke in dialect (most of the time) i didn't understand much; then also the behaviour was rather different (not good or bad but different).. i didn't feel like i was in italy.. a thing that i feel when i'm in rome and upwards till milan, where people speak italian and the behaviour and culture is more similar with mine.. certainly in some remote part of northern italy, if they spoke in dialect it would be the same feeling.. an alien in their land.
guess, i felt more simpathy and cultural similarity with the foreign tourists there than with the local people

Kardu
08-08-12, 23:36
Sorry guys, taking in account the super-low birthrates of Europeans I consider the local nationalisms and regionalisms etc. in countries like Italy, Spain, UK etc. silly, destructive and blinding, akin to theological disputes about the number of Angels on a tip of a needle in besieged Constantinople of 1453...

wormhole
09-08-12, 00:39
LOL

So you talk about the Iberian supposed inferiority complex and now it seems you care about what other people thinks concerning Italians. Amazing...
I don't really care to be honest. I'll still be European at the end of the day, so I don't really care about what others think of Italians. I've pretty much heard it all. Iberians, Spanish-Portuguese, have the most African admixture (Fact). Sicilians have the most out of Italians (1%), but they're not really considered Italian and I don't consider them Italian either.

My choices:

- Northern italians look more central european than middle eastern
- Southern italians have majority of greek look

Most Southern Italians just look Greek, not Semetic.

JFWR
09-08-12, 04:11
Julia90,

Where abouts in Italy are you from?

As for the main topics:

It is manifestly true that Northern Italians look and act more Celtic and Germanic than Southern Italians. They also tend to be of a more subdued, serious culture, than the gregarious Southern Italians and Sicillians.

Radek
09-08-12, 06:22
I wonder why quite a few argentineans having italian backnames are generally lighter and less typically med looking than italians from italy (even northern italians alone), at least you can notice it by looking at their sport squats, the italian squads usually look very mediterranean or dinarized-med, but the argentinean one not so. Are those argentinenans mixed with other european groups?

At the same time quite a few of the italians from the US (Italian-americans) look almost arab/middle eastern.

About real Italians (the ones living in italy, not the diasporas) I've never noticed that much difference between northern and southern italians except that a few italians from south could pass for lebanese, israeli, etc and a few of the north could make it to pass for slovenians, etc but nothing more that that. Most italians (even the north ones) fit well in the southern european range.

Radek
09-08-12, 06:30
Julia90,

Where abouts in Italy are you from?

As for the main topics:

It is manifestly true that Northern Italians look and act more Celtic and Germanic than Southern Italians. They also tend to be of a more subdued, serious culture, than the gregarious Southern Italians and Sicillians.

still northern italians are closer to southern italians than they are to austrians (excepting the ones from sud-tyrol). Northern italians also flirt way more with women than a typical germanic person, they also tend to live longer at house with parents and importance of family is big, afterall it's still Italy. France is a different case, when I've been in northern france I didnt feel at all in southern europe, but some cross of western/central european mentalities and values, opposed to deep south mediterranean french coast where the southern european mentalities and lifestyle are all around.

julia90
09-08-12, 11:21
this describes, the mentality of southern italians
http://www.albanesi.it/Mente/meridionale.htm in italian
trust me central and northern italians are more akin to swiss people mentality than to the southern italian one; just different cultures.. not good or bad

Knovas
09-08-12, 14:39
I don't really care to be honest. I'll still be European at the end of the day, so I don't really care about what others think of Italians. I've pretty much heard it all. Iberians, Spanish-Portuguese, have the most African admixture (Fact). Sicilians have the most out of Italians (1%), but they're not really considered Italian and I don't consider them Italian either.

My choices:

- Northern italians look more central european than middle eastern
- Southern italians have majority of greek look

Most Southern Italians just look Greek, not Semetic.
You are obviously unaware of most research and I think you've never seen a global genetic plot. Keep your facts XD

Oh, and the post was for Julia, not for you, So it seems you finally care despite of your words.

Knovas
09-08-12, 14:43
well, altought southern italians aren't middle eastern, in this period i'm rethinking about our unity.. mostly for sociocultural big differences, i've seen during some of my trips all along italy.. i think we are too much different, the physical differences (that there are, but not extreme) are a slim barrier; the big barrier is the culture.. when staying in conctatct with southern italians in southern italy, i felt like a fish out of water, first when they spoke in dialect (most of the time) i didn't understand much; then also the behaviour was rather different (not good or bad but different).. i didn't feel like i was in italy.. a thing that i feel when i'm in rome and upwards till milan, where people speak italian and the behaviour and culture is more similar with mine.. certainly in some remote part of northern italy, if they spoke in dialect it would be the same feeling.. an alien in their land.
guess, i felt more simpathy and cultural similarity with the foreign tourists there than with the local people
Well it's ok Julia, no offense. I just disliked one of your posts, I have nothing against you.

JFWR
09-08-12, 15:34
still northern italians are closer to southern italians than they are to austrians (excepting the ones from sud-tyrol). Northern italians also flirt way more with women than a typical germanic person, they also tend to live longer at house with parents and importance of family is big, afterall it's still Italy. France is a different case, when I've been in northern france I didnt feel at all in southern europe, but some cross of western/central european mentalities and values, opposed to deep south mediterranean french coast where the southern european mentalities and lifestyle are all around.

The flirtation might be different than say...a German, but their sobriety compared to Southern Italians is notable. They are a much more serious, industrious, and ordered people compared to the South. Compare even the state of industry and business in prosperous Northern Italy, with the economically backwards South. Naples has a 30 percent unemployment rate.

They aren't as "nuclear" as central Europeans either, yeah.

JFWR
09-08-12, 15:38
this describes, the mentality of southern italians
http://www.albanesi.it/Mente/meridionale.htm in italian
trust me central and northern italians are more akin to swiss people mentality than to the southern italian one; just different cultures.. not good or bad

I translated this with Google and I must say:

The aspects of culture they identified as Southern are actually some good concepts. The article actually comes off as fairly offensive in crapping over the sense of family, the role of men, the notion of honour, religion, and breaking "small laws".

The problem with Southern Italian culture is the lack of industriousness, the over gregariousness, the lack of law and order, et cetera.

Knovas
09-08-12, 16:11
Northern Italians and Austrians are very close in autosomal tests concerning their affinities with West Asia/the Caucasus, that's what I noticed checking the few Austrian samples available. The main difference is that Austrians share more alleles with Northern Europeans, while Northern Italians do so with Southern Europeans. If I have to guess (because I never visited Austria), I would say that both populations are very similar in their facial traits, but Austrians have surely lighter pigmentation.

julia90
09-08-12, 19:03
I wonder why quite a few argentineans having italian backnames are generally lighter and less typically med looking than italians from italy (even northern italians alone), at least you can notice it by looking at their sport squats, the italian squads usually look very mediterranean or dinarized-med, but the argentinean one not so. Are those argentinenans mixed with other european groups?

i know the argentinean population of european origin is composed by about 50% italians and 30% spaniards with the rest being of northern european descendance

julia90
09-08-12, 19:05
Well it's ok Julia, no offense. I just disliked one of your posts, I have nothing against you.

ok, no problem for me too. :-) f you want to ask me anything about federalism and sociocultural differences, or want to contribute with your imporessions you can do.

julia90
09-08-12, 19:07
The flirtation might be different than say...a German, but their sobriety compared to Southern Italians is notable. They are a much more serious, industrious, and ordered people compared to the South. Compare even the state of industry and business in prosperous Northern Italy, with the economically backwards South. Naples has a 30 percent unemployment rate.

They aren't as "nuclear" as central Europeans either, yeah.

yep, we arent excessive gregarious like southern italians, also when in a room with southern italians in southern italy, you can perceive only their noises, while the presence of northern italian is more discrete, and less noisy, like most central and northern europeans..
...we could appear "more depressed", but i wouldn't change their exuberance with our more industrious sociocultural texute.. (however i belive some theoris of meridionalism, that with the unity of italy, southern italy's financed were stoled from piedmonteses.. so the unity was negative for them)

wormhole
09-08-12, 21:50
You are obviously unaware of most research and I think you've never seen a global genetic plot. Keep your facts XD

Oh, and the post was for Julia, not for you, So it seems you finally care despite of your words.
Global genetic plot? O__O

I don't see how it's possible for Southern Italians to cluster closer with Semites and not their fellow countrymen. Your incredibly stupid, totally disregarding the fact that co-ethnics ALWAYS cluster closer to each-other than to another group of people.

wormhole
09-08-12, 21:53
Northern Italians and Austrians are very close in autosomal tests concerning their affinities with West Asia/the Caucasus, that's what I noticed checking the few Austrian samples available. The main difference is that Austrians share more alleles with Northern Europeans, while Northern Italians do so with Southern Europeans. If I have to guess (because I never visited Austria), I would say that both populations are very similar in their facial traits, but Austrians have surely lighter pigmentation.

THIS is funny. Difference in pigmentation? They're RIGHT beside one another. Northern Italians share the same pigmentation as Central Europeans including Swiss/Austrians. Central/Southern Italians are more like Croats, Greeks, Albanians, Serbians, Bosniaks, etc...

Are you really surprised that N.Italians and Austrians are close in autosomal testing? They are RIGHT beside each-other after all.

zanipolo
09-08-12, 23:13
Central Europe area, as taught to my father, his father and to myself ( in Italy and Australia) is the following countries/regions
Slovenia
Austria
Northern Italy
Switzerland
Baden
bavaria
Czech
Freiburg
Wirtenburg
and Hungary

I might have missed one or two regions ( maybe wurzburg and alsace )

Linguistic profesors say, central and southern Italy speak Gallo-Italic and northern italians speak Gallo-Iberic
Check La Spezia-Rimini line

julia90
09-08-12, 23:29
humh... i don't know if austrians look like northern italians.. i think not.. i've always conisdered austrians as northern europeans germanic, and not central europeans.. northern italians should look much more like swiss and french


here's a map i made morphing footballplayers from europeans ethnicities.. if if it's a bit off topic
the italian one is both of northern and southern italians.. so it couldn't help much
http://s16.postimage.org/jxtjhc3s1/Europe_Phenotypes.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/jxtjhc3s1/)

Knovas
09-08-12, 23:52
Global genetic plot? O__O

I don't see how it's possible for Southern Italians to cluster closer with Semites and not their fellow countrymen. Your incredibly stupid, totally disregarding the fact that co-ethnics ALWAYS cluster closer to each-other than to another group of people.
Another insult. It's the second time, I told Kardu but he can't do anything. Please moderators...thanks!

Endri
09-08-12, 23:53
I don't see what's wrong with the Souther Italians, their looks, traditions and especially their mentality (which remarkably similar to Albanian)

julia90
10-08-12, 00:19
I don't see what's wrong with the Souther Italians, their looks, traditions and especially their mentality (which remarkably similar to Albanian)

i'm ok with soutehrn italians living in central and northern italy, because they after 10 years can take our menatlity, and i have no problems with albanians here that after the same years can take our mentalities.. but having contact with meridionals in central and northern italy, it's different then immerging in their culture in their land.. when all of their charachetr is more exagerate.. we have different mindset, and culture.

zanipolo
10-08-12, 00:54
i'm ok with soutehrn italians living in central and northern italy, because they after 10 years can take our menatlity, and i have no problems with albanians here that after the same years can take our mentalities.. but having contact with meridionals in central and northern italy, it's different then immerging in their culture in their land.. when all of their charachetr is more exagerate.. we have different mindset, and culture.

I am not offending you, but there are cultural divisions in Italy the same as there are in switzerland, austria, germany, spain etc etc. Its not an issue its just the difference of culture of people.
Culture can be as simple as what is eaten, example, my father ( and relatives ) did not eat lamb for the first until he was in his 50s ( and he has only eaten it twice since), it was pork with everything, any casserole, be it chicken, peasant, duck, goose, turkey, quail all had pork in the casserole as well. Risotto is eaten far more than pasta with my family/ies.

Also, historically, germans are not classified as central europeans only northern europeans, the bavarians who created the austrians are central europeans, its only because bavaria is in germany now that germans are also called central europeans ( which in my opinion is wrong)

wormhole
10-08-12, 01:01
i'm ok with soutehrn italians living in central and northern italy, because they after 10 years can take our menatlity, and i have no problems with albanians here that after the same years can take our mentalities.. but having contact with meridionals in central and northern italy, it's different then immerging in their culture in their land.. when all of their charachetr is more exagerate.. we have different mindset, and culture.
Why wouldn't you? O__O

It's their country as well. North/South, same thing. And yes, Albanians would be close to Southern Italians in terms of culture. Well, the Christian ones anyways.

wormhole
10-08-12, 01:05
humh... i don't know if austrians look like northern italians.. i think not.. i've always conisdered austrians as northern europeans germanic, and not central europeans.. northern italians should look much more like swiss and french


here's a map i made morphing footballplayers from europeans ethnicities.. if if it's a bit off topic
the italian one is both of northern and southern italians.. so it couldn't help much
They do share the same looks for the most part. Italy DOES have Germanic/Celtic input up north and in some Central areas. Austrians are Central Europeans along with the Swiss, who are Germanic as well.

JFWR
10-08-12, 18:08
yep, we arent excessive gregarious like southern italians, also when in a room with southern italians in southern italy, you can perceive only their noises, while the presence of northern italian is more discrete, and less noisy, like most central and northern europeans..
...we could appear "more depressed", but i wouldn't change their exuberance with our more industrious sociocultural texute.. (however i belive some theoris of meridionalism, that with the unity of italy, southern italy's financed were stoled from piedmonteses.. so the unity was negative for them)

I would say instead of "depressed" that you are more refined and dignified. Southern Italian life has a sort of rustic roughness that isn't to be found in the North. I find Northern sobriety to be far more appealing.

Endri
10-08-12, 22:51
Why wouldn't you? O__O

It's their country as well. North/South, same thing. And yes, Albanians would be close to Southern Italians in terms of culture. Well, the Christian ones anyways.

There isn't a notable distinction in culture between Muslim and Christian Albanians, so culturally all Albanians are similar to Southern Italy (especially Albanians in Albania and Monte-Negro).


i'm ok with soutehrn italians living in central and northern italy, because they after 10 years can take our menatlity, and i have no problems with albanians here that after the same years can take our mentalities.. but having contact with meridionals in central and northern italy, it's different then immerging in their culture in their land.. when all of their charachetr is more exagerate.. we have different mindset, and culture.

So, let me get this right. You would prefer an Italy with a single mentality, uniform? Where everyone thinks the same,acts the same ect basically with no colours?

Also the fact that Southern Italians can adapt to a Northern life style just shows that there is no significant difference between South and North. If the people who're born North would have been in South they would probably act the same and have the same mentality as the Southerners.

So be happy for the diversity, not sad :P

What makes Italy interesting in my point of view is it's diversity. I

JFWR
11-08-12, 03:56
There isn't a notable distinction in culture between Muslim and Christian Albanians, so culturally all Albanians are similar to Southern Italy (especially Albanians in Albania and Monte-Negro).

Italy should strongly guard against Moslem Albanian immigration. Also, white slavery has gone up tremendously in Italy from Eastern European countries in general.

Radek
11-08-12, 04:52
Northern Italians and Austrians are very close in autosomal tests concerning their affinities with West Asia/the Caucasus, that's what I noticed checking the few Austrian samples available. The main difference is that Austrians share more alleles with Northern Europeans, while Northern Italians do so with Southern Europeans. If I have to guess (because I never visited Austria), I would say that both populations are very similar in their facial traits, but Austrians have surely lighter pigmentation.


Not really northern italians look just like central Italians, and a few could pass maybe for slovenes, but they dont look like austrians at all, at least not racially-wise, austrians are nearly undishtingable from bavarians.

Radek
11-08-12, 04:55
yep, we arent excessive gregarious like southern italians, also when in a room with southern italians in southern italy, you can perceive only their noises, while the presence of northern italian is more discrete, and less noisy, like most central and northern europeans..
...we could appear "more depressed", but i wouldn't change their exuberance with our more industrious sociocultural texute.. (however i belive some theoris of meridionalism, that with the unity of italy, southern italy's financed were stoled from piedmonteses.. so the unity was negative for them)

It has nothing to do with being more central/northern european, portugueses for example are notable for being more depressed/less vivid than spaniards, and I hardly doubt they are really more northern european genetically wise than spaniards.

julia90
11-08-12, 15:34
Italy should strongly guard against Moslem Albanian immigration. Also, white slavery has gone up tremendously in Italy from Eastern European countries in general.

well the albanians i have seen here, act as non-muslims.. for examples their womean are dressed like us, in an occidental way, they drink beer and eat pork too.. they are non religious

Endri
11-08-12, 22:55
Italy should strongly guard against Moslem Albanian immigration.

Why? They have diseases or smth like that? Or are they gonna blow up themselves just for fun cause they are muslems? Or they're going to convert Italy to Islam or take over the Italian government in the next 100 years?

You have no idea about Albanians at all. All you know is what bulls**t you've read on the internet and some stereotypical behaviors because they're muslems. If you'd come into Albania you wouldn't even be able to notice who's muslem and who's not.

You're pretty much saying "I'm not racist. Racism is a crime and crime is for black people"

Yetos
12-08-12, 02:25
Although I try to avoid it, many times I fall to political issues, nationalistic Issues

Firtst of All who is Italy? what Area is Italy?

the term is after Greek Isalos Ισαλος, Italy stopes at North of Rome, Italian North is not Italy,
Until Garibaldi All historians Name Itally south and Central parts of the peninsula, Especially east Romans consider Venice Lombardia and Savoia wtc as non Italians,
So first you judge with modern criteria and not Historical
Modern Italy's North is divided in 2 major parts, the Germanic-Balcanic who mostly use venice as port, and Italo-Celtic who mainly use Genoa as port, Central Italy is mostly Italo-Celtic and south is a strange case,
Infact South Italy for me has more diversities and is more multicultural,
South Italy has not only Meditterenean culture from all the inner sea but also North European and some areas in south reminds me more North Europe population than North Italy , In palermo still you can find Normans and Scan from medieval times.

Besides a good question is how much ASIAN is the North? considering that the biggest migration in Italy were Greeks and !!!! ETruscans

Now the case of Albanians is another story,
I find them very bold and daring leaving their homes to go to work wherever and whatever, in 90's they walked tenth of miles to find a work in Greece, walking over half a meter snow sometimes, and many of them have the besa and are good workers
On religious matters the ones who are from cities towns are non fanatic, the problem is from some areas were religious foundamental revived after the fall of Hodza, cause the old dictator manage to control it but today seems to revive,

the other case is worldwide and has nothing to with Albanians but with Kain's curse,
Albania has an inner law among families and castes, which forces criminals to go abroad, mainly as illegal immigrants,
that is common to every country, remember at 1900's criminal of Europe escape to US and australia was build by convicts of British empire

and Endri I have been and you know that are areas that even you, don't go with fear

oreo_cookie
12-08-12, 03:24
In my opinion northern Italians most closely resemble west-central European types (French, Austrians, Swiss), while southern Italians are most similar to Greeks and other East Med peoples. Central Italians are somewhat intermediate but closer to the north, I think.

JFWR
12-08-12, 09:17
well the albanians i have seen here, act as non-muslims.. for examples their womean are dressed like us, in an occidental way, they drink beer and eat pork too.. they are non religious

Are you sure these aren't the Christian Albanians? Albanias are ethnically and religiously divided.

If not, I suppose there might be some secular ones from there. That would be better.

JFWR
12-08-12, 09:18
Why? They have diseases or smth like that? Or are they gonna blow up themselves just for fun cause they are muslems? Or they're going to convert Italy to Islam or take over the Italian government in the next 100 years?


Something like that, yes.


You have no idea about Albanians at all. All you know is what bulls**t you've read on the internet and some stereotypical behaviors because they're muslems. If you'd come into Albania you wouldn't even be able to notice who's muslem and who's not.

If they are so hard to distinguish, why was has ethnic and religious strife been based on different identity there? History doesn't tend to lie about these things.


You're pretty much saying "I'm not racist. Racism is a crime and crime is for black people"

That's a funny quote. I actually laughed out loud.

Endri
12-08-12, 09:52
If they are so hard to distinguish, why was has ethnic and religious strife been based on different identity there? History doesn't tend to lie about these things.

I can't follow you. Are you talking general or for Albania here?

Endri
12-08-12, 09:58
Are you sure these aren't the Christian Albanians? Albanias are ethnically and religiously divided.

If not, I suppose there might be some secular ones from there. That would be better.

Really? Seriously? Albanians are religiously divided? It just shows how ignorant you are regarding this matter. I advise you don't comment any more on this matter cause you're only making your self ridiculous.

If it is smth Albanians are divided that is politics.

julia90
12-08-12, 14:53
Although I try to avoid it, many times I fall to political issues, nationalistic Issues

Firtst of All who is Italy? what Area is Italy?

the term is after Greek Isalos Ισαλος, Italy stopes at North of Rome, Italian North is not Italy,
Until Garibaldi All historians Name Itally south and Central parts of the peninsula, Especially east Romans consider Venice Lombardia and Savoia wtc as non Italians,
So first you judge with modern criteria and not Historical
Modern Italy's North is divided in 2 major parts, the Germanic-Balcanic who mostly use venice as port, and Italo-Celtic who mainly use Genoa as port, Central Italy is mostly Italo-Celtic and south is a strange case,
Infact South Italy for me has more diversities and is more multicultural,
South Italy has not only Meditterenean culture from all the inner sea but also North European and some areas in south reminds me more North Europe population than North Italy , In palermo still you can find Normans and Scan from medieval times.

Besides a good question is how much ASIAN is the North? considering that the biggest migration in Italy were Greeks and !!!! ETruscans


in the case of ancient romans they called italy, our peninsula untill the Rubicone river http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubicon
, north of the Rubicon it wasn't considered italy, but Gallia Cisalpina.
The Rubicone toghether with the river Arno as said in the article, were the boundaries of italy in the north; central italy and two thirds of tuscany were considered italy (but in reality all Etruria untill the appennines was considered italy i think)

JFWR
12-08-12, 16:11
Really? Seriously? Albanians are religiously divided? It just shows how ignorant you are regarding this matter. I advise you don't comment any more on this matter cause you're only making your self ridiculous.

If it is smth Albanians are divided that is politics.

Yes, they are religiously divided. What are you? Dense? Albania is 70 percent Moslem, 30 percent Christian. That is what we call "divided". Maybe you need to learn about your country. Don't they have public schools in Albania? Are you not even aware of recent history?

Endri
12-08-12, 17:56
Yes, they are religiously divided. What are you? Dense? Albania is 70 percent Moslem, 30 percent Christian. That is what we call "divided". Maybe you need to learn about your country. Don't they have public schools in Albania? Are you not even aware of recent history?

First don't try and teach me my country history cause no offence but you're as ignorant as it can get to my country history.

Second that figure shows how little you know about Albania. You just simply think that one is either Muslim or not. Where do the mixed families stand? Huh? And they are a LOT.

Third, by religiously divided I understand that you're implying that the country is divided into two fractions. Muslims and Christians, and that one part is 100% or close to that religiously muslim and the other is Christian, and that cities/neighborhoods are divided into muslim and christian.

Fourth, third is false. There is no such thing in Albania. Nobody cares what religion you are cause it simply doesn't matter.

Sixth, according to your definition of divided, every single country in this world is. And if everyone is, no one is.

Seventh, now go shove you're ignorant as hell ideas and believes wherever you find a place in that mind of yours.


and Endri I have been and you know that are areas that even you, don't go with fear

Been where? What areas I wouldn't dare to go?

JFWR
12-08-12, 18:16
First don't try and teach me my country history cause no offence but you're as ignorant as it can get to my country history.

Second that figure shows how little you know about Albania. You just simply think that one is either Muslim or not. Where do the mixed families stand? Huh? And they are a LOT.

Okay? So what? There are some mixed families.


Third, by religiously divided I understand that you're implying that the country is divided into two fractions. Muslims and Christians, and that one part is 100% or close to that religiously muslim and the other is Christian, and that cities/neighborhoods are divided into muslim and christian.

Fourth, third is false. There is no such thing in Albania. Nobody cares what religion you are cause it simply doesn't matter.



I think that really is ignorant considering the region's turbulent history for the last 20 years. Communism left nothing but ethnic and religious divide in your country and its neighbours.


Sixth, according to your definition of divided, every single country in this world is. And if everyone is, no one is.

Nonsense. There are plenty of countries with very little religious divide. The US, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Ireland, China (Taoism/Buddhism/Confucianism are essentially one religion in China and the Communist influence has waned), Japan, the Moslem states of the ME and Central Asia, et cetera.


Seventh, now go shove you're ignorant as hell ideas and believes wherever you find a place in that mind of yours.

I will put them right in the area you can give a big, fat, sloppy kiss to.

LeBrok
12-08-12, 19:11
JFWR and Endri, if you can't discuss subject with mutual respect then don't. Further escalation of this exchange might lead to temporary bans.

oriental
18-08-12, 22:54
I always liked Italian actresses e.g. the one in "Hercules" Sylva Koscina, "From Russia with Love" Daniela Bianchi, Gina Lollobrigida, Luciana Paluzziwho played the dark-haired female villain in another James Bond movie with that motorcycle.

julia90
18-08-12, 23:47
I always liked Italian actresses e.g. the one in Hercules Sylva Koscina, From Russia with love forgot her name Bianchi (?), Gina Lollobrigida (?), dark-haired female villain in another James Bond movie with that motorcycle.

yep we have exported some great actors :-)

wormhole
19-08-12, 00:18
Does Leonardo Di Caprio look Italian to you? I think he's 25 or 50% but he looks really Nordic.

oriental
20-08-12, 22:46
I like Nicholas Cage (Coppolo) I enjoyed the Movie "They call me Trinity" with Bud Spencer and Terence Hill (Italian actors with English names), Danny DeVito, Robert DeNiro, Al Pacino, Marcello Mastroianni. I like Pizza too.

oriental
20-08-12, 22:49
I wrote up a piece about Romans which I hope doesn't offend too many people:

The Romans have always fascinated me. I remember as a child visiting a friend and going through their Encyclopedia Brittannica and seeing the picture of a standing bronze wolf with two little human toddlers feeding from its teats. There was movie “Romulus and Remus”, the two twin infants and the legend was that the wolf suckled them and raised them. But wolves live in packs so it wouldn’t be realistic. ‘Wolf’ is in the Italian, or Latin slang, is a prostitute. Similarly “cougar” in the English language refers to an older woman seeking a younger male lover. So actually the twins were raised by a prostitute. In those times life was difficult especially for a woman. Women often lost their husbands and family through wars so this woman had to survive in whatever fashion she could and her motherly instinct led her to adopt these orphans whose parents were probably killed. Naturally Romulus and Remus were outcasts as this woman, their wet nurse and erstwhile mother, was of low status.

Rome was formed by a bunch of outcasts. They were all men with no real future but horny as hell. They were smart enough to build a community but no decent woman would marry these guys for sure. Probably in those times marriages were arranged as the daughters were married off to rich guys or upper class members of the community or neighbours. Roger Moore, the third James Bond after Sean Connery, early in his career starred in the movie “The Rape of the Sabine Women”. Roger played the part of Romulus. Romulus and his twin brother Remus fought over leadership of Rome. Romulus survived so we have the city of Rome instead of Remus. Hmm, Remussian Empire doesn’t quite have that ring to it.

As I mentioned, the outcast Romans were horny and the neighbouring Sabine had lots of women so they hatched up a scheme to steal those women. This is an indication that the Romans were originally steppe people as was the custom in the steppes tribes often raided other tribes to steal women. I think women died often in the harsh steppes in childbirths so there was always a shortage of women who thus became prized items. It was also a practice in the steppes for men to share a wife. In the Mahabharat, ‘maha’ means great and Bharat is the name of the founding Indian King. India is named after Bharat. “India” is a British invention. The Mughals called India Hindustan. Mahabharat is a grand epic of the Indian Kingdom. King Bharat’s grand children would fight over the kingdom. They were dived into two groups. The virtuous Pandavas, but rather stupid, group had five brothers who shared a wife against the cunning Kauravas group. Each camp got their allies and the whole of India, or Bharat, was divided into two great groups. Of interest, the mythical God Krishna was on the side of the Pandavas. Most likely Krishna was a real king but got deified over the years. They fought in the epic Kurukshetra War that decimated the Indian population by 40%. There was a depression after this war. This ‘brothers sharing of a wife’ is a steppe tradition so the Indian Aryans shows they were originally steppe people.

To get back to Rome, so one can easily see why Rome became a world power with such daring people. The scheme was to lure the Sabines in a phoney festival. Once the Sabines came to the festival they plied them with wine. Once they passed out they picked up the men and their wives and drove them back to their community. They captured and hid the younger women and raped them. Strangely the women did not go back to their own community. The enraged Sabines waged a war against the Romans and the stolen women backed the Romans. It shows women were romantic and loved men of daring and felt loved by the Romans as they would rather have a virile adventurer than be married off in an arranged marriage to an older person.


The Rape is supposed to have occurred in the early history of Rome, shortly after its founding by Romulus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus) and his mostly male followers. Seeking wives in order to found families, the Romans negotiated unsuccessfully with the Sabines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabines), who populated the area. Fearing the emergence of a rival society, the Sabines refused to allow their women to marry the Romans. Consequently, the Romans planned to abduct Sabine women. Romulus devised a festival of Neptune Equester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune_%28mythology%29) and proclaimed the festival among Rome's neighbours. According to Livy, many people from Rome's neighbours attended, including folk from the Caeninenses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caenina_%28Town%29), Crustumini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crustumerium), and Antemnates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antemnae), and many of the Sabines. At the festival Romulus gave a signal, at which the Romans grabbed the Sabine women and fought off the Sabine men. The indignant abductees were soon implored by Romulus to accept Roman husbands.

Romulus pleaded with the abducted women:

Livy is clear that no sexual assault took place. On the contrary, Romulus offered them free choice and promised civic and property rights to women. According to Livy, Romulus spoke to them each in person, "and pointed out to them that it was all owing to the pride of their parents in denying the right of intermarriage to their neighbours. They would live in honourable wedlock, and share all their property and civil rights, and—dearest of all to human nature—would be the mothers of free men."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women)This story, of course, is only a legend. The actual growth of Rome is less exotic and interesting. The city of Rome grew out of a number of settlements that existed around seven hills that were near the River Tiber. The settlements were near the river for the obvious reasons of a water supply. The Tiber was also narrow enough at this point to be bridged. However, the area also suffered because of the nearness of the river. Each settlement was separated from the other by marshland. Each individual settlement was vulnerable to attack as a single settlement. By joining together they were stronger. To join together, the marshland had to be drained. This was something that took years to do. The legend of Romulus and Remus gives the impression that Rome was created very quickly; the truth was very different.
The early people of Rome were from a tribe called Latins. They were from the Plains of Latium. The Latins were successful farmers and traders and they became rich and successful. Therefore, Rome from its early days was a rich city. This was to create jealousy and to bring the city of Rome into conflict with areas surrounding the city. In particular, the Romans fought against the Etruscans and the Samnites.
For this reason, the leaders of Rome invested in an army (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/roman_army.htm). This skilled force both protected the city and expanded its power. By 300 BC, the Romans controlled most of the Italian peninsula.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/romulus_and_remus.htm

It seems unlikely that any part of this legend is true. Almost certainly it is a copy of a Greek tale, invented to explain the name of Rome and certain customs. For instance Roman brides were taken from their families on their wedding days with a pretense of force, and this probably accounts for the story of the Sabine women.

UNRV History




(http://www.unrv.com/culture/romulus-and-remus.php)

oriental
20-08-12, 22:52
I wonder why quite a few argentineans having italian backnames are generally lighter and less typically med looking than italians from italy (even northern italians alone), at least you can notice it by looking at their sport squats, the italian squads usually look very mediterranean or dinarized-med, but the argentinean one not so. Are those argentinenans mixed with other european groups?

At the same time quite a few of the italians from the US (Italian-americans) look almost arab/middle eastern.

About real Italians (the ones living in italy, not the diasporas) I've never noticed that much difference between northern and southern italians except that a few italians from south could pass for lebanese, israeli, etc and a few of the north could make it to pass for slovenians, etc but nothing more that that. Most italians (even the north ones) fit well in the southern european range.

I think most of the Italians in the US are of Sicilian descent thus the mafia.

oriental
22-08-12, 23:22
I also enjoy Sergio Leone's western movies. He was a great director. Those Clint Eastwood spaghetti western were the reason he became a superstar.

5710

Bharat only consisted of the river areas of the Indus and the Ganges. Hindu means people of the river and not a religious term.

MOESAN
25-08-12, 22:53
1- I supposed the industrial northern areas of Italy know nowaday a kind of internal immigration from poor southern Italy - for I know, northern Italians are a bit different from other Italians, being he most strickingly "southern" for external aspect the Sardinians -
2- often enough, the emigrants are not from everypart of a country but from the poorest regions so it is very unreliable to judge the whole country - Irishmen in USA was more from the West, Swedes was from Scanie (South), Poles from North and so on...
3- it is true, as if there would by some selection, the romance immigrants in South America seams often enough more "nordist" than the level means of their countries of origin, italy, Spain or Portugal -

julia90
31-08-12, 00:13
facts are we are two, or more than two distints cultures.. southern italy isn't europe-like.. it's more mediterranean whil up to rome you feel more in europe..

Kardu
31-08-12, 20:22
facts are we are two, or more than two distints cultures.. southern italy isn't europe-like.. it's more mediterranean whil up to rome you feel more in europe..

Sorry to bug you with specifications but what's European and what's Mediterranean? Why this contrast? Rome doesn't feel like Helsinki or Paris and Palermo doesn't feel like Marakesh....

julia90
01-09-12, 00:55
Sorry to bug you with specifications but what's European and what's Mediterranean? Why this contrast? Rome doesn't feel like Helsinki or Paris and Palermo doesn't feel like Marakesh....

behaviours.. modern occidental mentality.. not strictly correlated with climate.. i feel more related with a southern french, swiss, central european than with southern italians... also many southern italians who live in southern italy, don't appreciate our mentality... they see us more like the swiss too... thought the southern italians who live here, like other europeans immigrants, can if they want integrate well.

we may be more similar in phenotype with southern italians and other southern europeans, but our mentality it's like central european

julia90
01-09-12, 01:10
so, here is my division of italy
that makes 5 states in case of a secession, or more auspicable by me for a federal fiscal and in part political division of italy
http://s15.postimage.org/xwoeoifd3/italy.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/xwoeoifd3/)

Kardu
01-09-12, 16:37
behaviours.. modern occidental mentality.. not strictly correlated with climate.. i feel more related with a southern french, swiss, central european than with southern italians... also many southern italians who live in southern italy, don't appreciate our mentality... they see us more like the swiss too... thought the southern italians who live here, like other europeans immigrants, can if they want integrate well.

we may be more similar in phenotype with southern italians and other southern europeans, but our mentality it's like central european

I have the impression that you consider 'modern occidental mentality' as a positive trait vs. Mediterranean mentality as negative...

Boss
01-09-12, 17:38
Julia90,

Where abouts in Italy are you from?

As for the main topics:

It is manifestly true that Northern Italians look and act more Celtic and Germanic than Southern Italians. They also tend to be of a more subdued, serious culture, than the gregarious Southern Italians and Sicillians.

What does "acting" more Celtic and Germanic means?

Holy shit I just realised this thread is one big cultural stereotyping fest. Good grief...poor Southern Italians.

zanipolo
01-09-12, 21:21
Although I try to avoid it, many times I fall to political issues, nationalistic Issues

Firtst of All who is Italy? what Area is Italy?

the term is after Greek Isalos Ισαλος, Italy stopes at North of Rome, Italian North is not Italy,
Until Garibaldi All historians Name Itally south and Central parts of the peninsula, Especially east Romans consider Venice Lombardia and Savoia wtc as non Italians,
So first you judge with modern criteria and not Historical
Modern Italy's North is divided in 2 major parts, the Germanic-Balcanic who mostly use venice as port, and Italo-Celtic who mainly use Genoa as port, Central Italy is mostly Italo-Celtic and south is a strange case,
Infact South Italy for me has more diversities and is more multicultural,
South Italy has not only Meditterenean culture from all the inner sea but also North European and some areas in south reminds me more North Europe population than North Italy , In palermo still you can find Normans and Scan from medieval times.

Besides a good question is how much ASIAN is the North? considering that the biggest migration in Italy were Greeks and !!!! ETruscans

Now the case of Albanians is another story,
I find them very bold and daring leaving their homes to go to work wherever and whatever, in 90's they walked tenth of miles to find a work in Greece, walking over half a meter snow sometimes, and many of them have the besa and are good workers
On religious matters the ones who are from cities towns are non fanatic, the problem is from some areas were religious foundamental revived after the fall of Hodza, cause the old dictator manage to control it but today seems to revive,

the other case is worldwide and has nothing to with Albanians but with Kain's curse,
Albania has an inner law among families and castes, which forces criminals to go abroad, mainly as illegal immigrants,
that is common to every country, remember at 1900's criminal of Europe escape to US and australia was build by convicts of British empire

and Endri I have been and you know that are areas that even you, don't go with fear

The part of Italy you commented is all true.....Italy is a greek word describing Italians as you noted ( I think sicilians are excluded as being italians ). But as stated historically around 1500BC all north italy where the ligues ( ligurians ) people. This is where culture/mentality started. these people did not migrate anywhere in large numbers, but accepted other races in their culture. Since the ligurians at this time where also in southern france, you can see a similar people stretching from french provence to Northeast Italy today

zanipolo
01-09-12, 21:30
so, here is my division of italy
that makes 5 states in case of a secession, or more auspicable by me for a federal fiscal and in part political division of italy
http://s15.postimage.org/xwoeoifd3/italy.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/xwoeoifd3/)

Your map is based on the known linguistic division seperating north italy at la Spezia-Rimini ( I have no issue with this as this is fact noted by professors of language and culture ), but the other divisons you stated is a division based on a starting point of the peace of Lido in 1453.

My theory is the ancient proved theory based on the original people of these lands, Ligurians in the north, Umbrians in the central , up to Rome, the Oscans in the south .........and the sicilians and sardinians ...?? unsure of these

Did you read the Italian link I commented to you in another thread?

Boss
02-09-12, 08:51
I have the impression that you consider 'modern occidental mentality' as a positive trait vs. Mediterranean mentality as negative...

Lol, I am actually getting more confident that that is in fact what she thinks the more she denies it. Yes julia, we get it, Southerners are not "bad", only "different". Southern Italy is also not "europe-like" and you "didn't feel like you were in italy" when you were in the South.

There's nothing wrong with admitting that there are some bad things about S. Italy. In fact, I'd guess the S. Italians themselves would agree. No need to pretend otherwise.

Yetos
02-09-12, 11:42
I wonder, if Italy is divided to 5 Parts, and these parts take their aytonomy,

The rich North, where will sell its products?

Boss
02-09-12, 12:30
I wonder, if Italy is divided to 5 Parts, and these parts take their aytonomy,

The rich North, where will sell its products?

What does that have to do with trade? given that they'll all be in the EU, they'll be part of the common market.

julia90
02-09-12, 21:28
well i can guarantee all of you that these divisions are real and deep..
if someone like me going to southern italy will feel alien there, like going to another country (and even more for me); than should be "italy" divided in its true culture?

even the folk music is totally different
northern vs southern italian folk musics are million times distant between them... nothing good or bad, they are both great folk music.. but different.. like on opposite
.. to give an example


northern italy music with deep affinities to western europe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvTwEgjfqWo&feature=player_embedded

julia90
02-09-12, 21:29
another northern italian, alpine chour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aREbSgfCsw&feature=player_embedded

julia90
02-09-12, 21:29
listen to two northern italian dialect (Romagnol).. you get a great affinity with french languages

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjdHDNiXdK8

julia90
02-09-12, 21:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SjqopcyxOE

julia90
02-09-12, 21:31
while southern italian feel completely different

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww6QW3ye-Nk&feature=player_embedded

julia90
02-09-12, 21:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCR79v9je5g&feature=player_embedded

Kardu
02-09-12, 22:28
France is not uniform either. Despite central government's tough measures for the last 200 years there are huge differences between Brittany, Alsace, Corsica, Aquitaine, French Basque territories and the rest of France. Should France also become a federal country?

Boss
02-09-12, 22:38
Not disputing that there are differences. What is it that S. Italian culture has in common with Middle Eastern cultures (and they are not monolithic) that is stronger than what it has in common with the rest of the Italian (Central and Northern) culture(s)?

julia90
02-09-12, 22:46
France is not uniform either. Despite central government's tough measures for the last 200 years there are huge differences between Brittany, Alsace, Corsica, Aquitaine, French Basque territories and the rest of France. Should France also become a federal country?

well, but France has less physical obstacle to omozenisation (mostly plains, while italy is mostly hilly and montaneous).. and it was unificated more in the past times than italy... i'm sure that nowdays 70% or more of the French speak only standard French and not dialects.. while in italy many people continue to speak dialects both in southern and in northern italy.

the first obstacle for me was dialect while i was in southern italy.. while it's true that when people spoke to me they spoke in standard italian.. but between them they spoke in dialects and.. it's a both fashinating but also orrible sensation to understand very few of wat they were saying.. while in southern italy (below rome and latina) people in the streets speak only dialects in central italy (rome, umbria, tuscany, marche) and in many places of northern italy too (like milan, bologna, turin.. big cities) people speak standard italian even if with regional accents. It's also true that in some northern italian places they speak only in dialect (like in veneto).. i bet the sensation would be the same for me (i'm from central italy), feeling alien also in northern italy if they spoke in dialect.

to add to that northern italians usually feel more italian than southern italians do.. because in northern italy there are northern italians but also many people with origins in southern italy.. so we feel very integrated with each other.. while in southern italy they haven't received the immigration from northern italians.. and i felt a bit of mentaly closure towards me and other italians from the north in vacation in southern italy.. they wanted to distanciate them from us, because they aren't used to us.. while we are used of them and we are integrated with them in northern and central italy (for example i have many friends of southern italian origins here).

in france people from the north have migrated in southern france and vice versa

julia90
02-09-12, 22:50
Not disputing that there are differences. What is it that S. Italian culture has in common with Middle Eastern cultures (and they are not monolithic) that is stronger than what it has in common with the rest of the Italian (Central and Northern) culture(s)?

well, the importance of the family ties mostly.. some behaviours also.. in southern italy you have big familes and they get married earlier.. they have many offspring (more than three children).. at marriage's parties they invite up to 400-600 people (mostly parents and friends).. in central and northern italy at marriages usually you don't get more than 80 peoople

Boss
02-09-12, 23:17
well, the importance of the family ties mostly.. some behaviours also.. in southern italy you have big familes and they get married earlier.. they have many offspring (more than three children).. at marriage's parties they invite up to 400-600 people (mostly parents and friends).. in central and northern italy at marriages usually you don't get more than 80 peoople

First I don't think Middle Easterners have huge weddings. Greeks on the other hand, do have huge weddings.

Second, I highly doubt that the birth ratio in the South is that high (>3 children/family). Perhaps you're referring to the 50s or the 20s. In fact, nowadays, Northerners have a higher birth ratio (at least according to this (http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol21/23/21-23.pdf)paper) and the differences between the North and the South were always marginal - like half a kid or something (oh yeah and they don't have children much earlier than you do - 2 years earlier perhaps).

In any case, my original question was whether these perceived similarities with the Middle East outweigh the commonalities with the Central-North so as to suggest that they're culturally more Middle Eastern than they are "Italian" (N-C). You're both Roman Catholic. No matter how much trouble you have with local accents, S. Italians are almost entirely alien to Arabic but at they very least, they can communicate in standard Italian with you. Presumably, you watch the same TV shows and assuming the educational system is not like in the US, you will have far more similar educational backgrounds than the S. Italians would have with the Arabs. Etc, etc...

Kardu
03-09-12, 00:11
The fact that they speak standard French around France is the result of harsh measures by the central government. 200 years ago what we call French now was spoken only in Île-de-France.

oreo_cookie
03-09-12, 09:36
Southern Italian customs and mindset may have some commonalities with Levantine Christian culture (and they all tend to be noisy, loud, gather in large groups, etc) by virtue of being Mediterranean whereas northern Italians are more quiet and reserved, like the French.

Boss
03-09-12, 12:58
Southern Italian customs and mindset may have some commonalities with Levantine Christian culture (and they all tend to be noisy, loud, gather in large groups, etc) by virtue of being Mediterranean whereas northern Italians are more quiet and reserved, like the French.

I don't view 'the French' as quiet or reserved but then I don't claim to hold any kind of absolute authority on such bizzare matters (like who's "louder" for example).

In any case, I think it's much more serious to talk about concerete facts - language, history, religion - than talk about the Christian Levantine (itself a hugely diverse group - perhaps more so than the Italians) "mindset" or culture.

Riccardo
03-09-12, 19:43
Imho, as an Italian, n° 1-2-6-8.

Northern Italians look surely more central european than middle eastern.

Southern Italians too. Southern Italians are dark, but that doesn't mean that they look like Middle Eastern. I think they are a good mix, but since the dark ones look more like Greek/Balkan people while the light ones really look like Northern Italians. No difference for me. My father comes from South Italy and I really look more central european than middle eastern!

Number 3, no for obvious reasons.

Number 4, is the opposite of number 2.

I think that Northern italians don't look "Celtic" at all. They can look Mittle-European in many cases, but they don't have "Celtic" features (if this means something). But this is always my opinion as a NON-expert.

Southern italians of course have a majority of Greek look!

Northern Italy for me is Southern Europe. As Catalunia, Provence, etc. That doesn't mean that Milan is like Athens or that Lombardia is like Sicily, but still South of Europe. Milan and Roma are different, but still closer than Milan and Berlin or Paris.

Number 8 as explained above!

Southern italy is not Middle Eastern, but Northern Mediterranean I think. It's really different.

Boss
03-09-12, 20:21
Imho, as an Italian, n° 1-2-6-8.

Northern Italians look surely more central european than middle eastern.

Southern Italians too. Southern Italians are dark, but that doesn't mean that they look like Middle Eastern. I think they are a good mix, but since the dark ones look more like Greek/Balkan people while the light ones really look like Northern Italians. No difference for me. My father comes from South Italy and I really look more central european than middle eastern!

Number 3, no for obvious reasons.

Number 4, is the opposite of number 2.

I think that Northern italians don't look "Celtic" at all. They can look Mittle-European in many cases, but they don't have "Celtic" features (if this means something). But this is always my opinion as a NON-expert.

Southern italians of course have a majority of Greek look!

Northern Italy for me is Southern Europe. As Catalunia, Provence, etc. That doesn't mean that Milan is like Athens or that Lombardia is like Sicily, but still South of Europe. Milan and Roma are different, but still closer than Milan and Berlin or Paris.

Number 8 as explained above!

Southern italy is not Middle Eastern, but Northern Mediterranean I think. It's really different.

Outside this strange forum, trust me, not many people think Southern Italian culture is closer to Middle Eastern cultures than it is to the rest of Italy. I thought people were actually joking but no.

Not that genetics are discussed but far as I am able to tell (people can correct me on this), Southern Italians are closer (genetically) to Northern Italians than they are to Middle Easterners.

Though I don't think genes play any role in julia's federalism. If they do, I despair for humanity. I don't actually understand what the point is of including "looks" into political discussions.

Riccardo
03-09-12, 20:36
Outside this strange forum, trust me, not many people think Southern Italian culture is closer to Middle Eastern cultures than it is to the rest of Italy. I thought people were actually joking but no.

Not that genetics are discussed but far as I am able to tell (people can correct me on this), Southern Italians are closer (genetically) to Northern Italians than they are to Middle Easterners.

Though I don't think genes play any role in julia's federalism. If they do, I despair for humanity. I don't actually understand what the point is of including "looks" into political discussions.

I agree. I even think that "genetical" issues are something really difficult to understand and that too many people talk about it without knowing many things (of course I'm not talking about Julia!). At least I know that I don't know anything about it (so Socratic eheh) and I don't mess with it. I just say that I don't like those kinds of divisions because if we divide nations in regions even genetically, well, I should be divided even from the rest of my neighborhood, since there is a scale of differences that is not regular, it is gradual. And we wouldn't ever stop to be divided for the most different reasons.
I think that, whatever were the reasons, right or wrong, we are a nation since a lot of time. And i don't really think that Northern European look like Central European if Southern European look like Middle Eastern. Reasoning this way everybody is different even in regions (even in Northern Lazio are more Tuscanian than in Southern Lazio, closer to Campania, lol).

oreo_cookie
04-09-12, 00:02
All I know about southern Italian genetics, with relation to Middle Eastern, is that Dodecad Oracle has at times given Sicilians the result "53% Assyrian, 47% Portuguese" or some close variation of it.

Generally I just think of southern Italy as being similar to the rest of Italy as well as to Greece.. but I think that the vibe in the south is more "Mediterranean" rather than distinctly European.

julia90
04-09-12, 00:53
Southern italy is not Middle Eastern, but Northern Mediterranean I think. It's really different.

with this i agree

julia90
04-09-12, 00:56
Outside this strange forum, trust me, not many people think Southern Italian culture is closer to Middle Eastern cultures than it is to the rest of Italy. I thought people were actually joking but no.

Not that genetics are discussed but far as I am able to tell (people can correct me on this), Southern Italians are closer (genetically) to Northern Italians than they are to Middle Easterners.

Though I don't think genes play any role in julia's federalism. If they do, I despair for humanity. I don't actually understand what the point is of including "looks" into political discussions.

well, althought there are slim gradial differencens all along italy.. the big obstacle is the language.. if someone speak in strict dialect i don't get what they say.. so i'm excluded from the conversations.. i feel more in touch for example with a romenian or albanian who speak my language (standard italian), than with those italians who speak in strict dialect.


with this i want to inform the posters that i have even acquired parents whose origins are in southern italy and they are well integrated here

julia90
04-09-12, 01:01
even in Northern Lazio are more Tuscanian than in Southern Lazio, closer to Campania

yep, Tuscia should be included in Tuscany, as well as much parts of Umbria !! : -)
http://www.castellitoscani.com/maps/etruria.gif

julia90
04-09-12, 01:27
here's the famous genetic map, but culture is way more important than genetics
tuscans are inbetween northern and southern italians (likely an offspring of a northern and southern italian would cluster with us tuscans)
http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/wp-content/blogs.dir/461/files/2012/04/i-bc3d339b8cbadcdd7eee9c628d505e9e-genmap1.jpg

MOESAN
04-09-12, 16:59
Central Europe area, as taught to my father, his father and to myself ( in Italy and Australia) is the following countries/regions
Slovenia
Austria
Northern Italy
Switzerland
Baden
bavaria
Czech
Freiburg
Wirtenburg
and Hungary

I might have missed one or two regions ( maybe wurzburg and alsace )

Linguistic profesors say, central and southern Italy speak Gallo-Italic and northern italians speak Gallo-Iberic
Check La Spezia-Rimini line

concerning linguistic
Sorry but I find this affirmation a nonsense:
for origin and phonetic evolution, Central and southern italian dialects are italic-italic (in a way) and northern italian dialects are gallo-italic, NOT the contrary! "iberic-italic"??? what is that??? some southern dialects and S-corsican and sardinian show some curious evolutions but we find some paralleles in gascon ('cacuminal'(?) -LL >> -DD or -T) - the most "iberic" for phonetic are corsican and sardinian (tendancy to lenition, as in french and celtic languages) but the french dialects are the ones that go the farther on this way (gallo-romance + nasalisations of vowels) - a rough analyse of mine -
no offence -

Boss
04-09-12, 21:07
julia,

I did not focus on "genes" because I (correctly) guess they're irrelevant in your federalism (also I know nothing about it!:D).

To repeat: That you have differences with the South I have not denied nor do I find surprising (you should hear what Southern Brits say about Northerner accents/dialects).

What I do find surprising is associating S. Italy more with the M. East than with the rest of Italy. And I still find the arguments offered wildly unpersuasive. You may not understand the dialects in the South but do you think a Southern Italian understands Arabic or Hebrew? what of their religion and customs? I would love to know what kind of customs S. Italians share with Middle Easterners (weddings are not it nor are birth rates something "cultural" as I explained above).

oreo_cookie
05-09-12, 18:20
I don't think southern Italians are closer to the Middle East culturally than they are to northern Italy, but I do think northern Italy has a vibe more distinctly "European" and that in some ways, southern Italy is more in the Mediterranean sphere without being distinctly European while at the same time, not feeling Middle Eastern.

However you could say southern Italy has as little in common with Germany or the Netherlands as with Lebanon, for instance.

Riccardo
05-09-12, 21:09
here's the famous genetic map, but culture is way more important than genetics
tuscans are inbetween northern and southern italians (likely an offspring of a northern and southern italian would cluster with us tuscans)
http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/wp-content/blogs.dir/461/files/2012/04/i-bc3d339b8cbadcdd7eee9c628d505e9e-genmap1.jpg


You have to apologize my ignorance, but does this mean that we are closer to the Slovaks than to the Spainards?

Boss
05-09-12, 21:36
You have to apologize my ignorance, but does this mean that we are closer to the Slovaks than to the Spainards?

Click this (http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg) where the map is much more visible. As you can see, it shows that some Italians are closer to the Slovaks whereas others are closer to the Swiss, the French, the Spaniards and the Portuguese. I think the IT sphere shows some kind of average or mean of the population.

To be honest, I, too, was puzzled to see the Slovaks there :grin:.

Riccardo
05-09-12, 21:48
Click this (http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg) where the map is much more visible. As you can see, it shows that some Italians are closer to the Slovaks whereas others are closer to the Swiss, the French, the Spaniards and the Portuguese. I think the IT sphere shows some kind of average or mean of the population.

To be honest, I, too, was puzzled to see the Slovaks there :grin:.

Thank you, Boss. This means that all these "it" are the various kind of Italians? Is there any way to find out where we - as single persons - are in the map?
P.d. Sorry for the probably stupid questions, but I don't know anything about it!

Boss
05-09-12, 21:54
Thank you, Boss. This means that all these "it" are the various kind of Italians? Is there any way to find out where we - as single persons - are in the map?
P.d. Sorry for the probably stupid questions, but I don't know anything about it!

Lol I do not want to misinform you so I will dodge your question but I do think that these ITs are just different Italians. I'd expect that the Southern, Central and Northern bits in the picture being Southern, Central and Northern Italians respectively (who knows?!).

I don't think there's a way to find a single represantative Italian person but as I said, I think the average is that large IT sphere at the bottom. Still the Slovak part seems bizzare... (I also don't think the Greeks are closer to the Slovaks than the Cypriots - wtf)

Riccardo
05-09-12, 22:08
Lol I do not want to misinform you so I will dodge your question but I do think that these ITs are just different Italians. I'd expect that the Southern, Central and Northern bits in the picture being Southern, Central and Northern Italians respectively (who knows?!).

I don't think there's a way to find a single represantative Italian person but as I said, I think the average is that large IT sphere at the bottom. Still the Slovak part seems bizzare... (I also don't think the Greeks are closer to the Slovaks than the Cypriots - wtf)

Ok got it! What about Scotts and Nederlanders so close?? Just the red hair? :P

oreo_cookie
05-09-12, 22:13
Spaniards and Italians are only genetically close if you mean northern Italians.. southerners are a much more "Southern" population genetically than Spaniards. But I can't imagine Slovaks are close to any Italians at all!

Riccardo
05-09-12, 22:25
Spaniards and Italians are only genetically close if you mean northern Italians.. southerners are a much more "Southern" population genetically than Spaniards. But I can't imagine Slovaks are close to any Italians at all!

Southern Italians are surely closer to the Greeks! While Northern Italians I think are closer to French people than to the Spainards! Anyhow I can't see all this difference beetween Southern Italians, Northern Italians, Southern French and Spainards! I can't distinguish them "naked eye".

Kardu
05-09-12, 23:16
Southern Italians are surely closer to the Greeks! While Northern Italians I think are closer to French people than to the Spainards! Anyhow I can't see all this difference beetween Southern Italians, Northern Italians, Southern French and Spainards! I can't distinguish them "naked eye".
I have hard times with French but Spaniards and Italians I can distinguish easily from each other and anybody else :)

Riccardo
05-09-12, 23:23
I have hard times with French but Spaniards and Italians I can distinguish easily from each other and anybody else :)

I don't know, I think we are really look a like! Many Spainards thought I was Spanish! =)

oreo_cookie
05-09-12, 23:48
I have hard times with French but Spaniards and Italians I can distinguish easily from each other and anybody else :)

I agree. There is a distinct Spanish look, and it doesn't look Italian or even too French to me. Nevermind that the East Med look does not exist in Spain but is common throughout some of southern Italy.

I look like a typical southern Italian and I would stand out in Spain.

julia90
06-09-12, 00:44
Thank you, Boss. This means that all these "it" are the various kind of Italians? Is there any way to find out where we - as single persons - are in the map?

yes, you can discover your position on genetic maps and your admixture and similarities with various ethnicities with genetic tests.. the best for me and the more reliable is 23andme.
other blogs onlines studies the genetic of populations.. such as Dienekes blog
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

adamo
13-04-13, 01:37
North Italians look predominantly celtic ( with R1b present in 55-60% of north italian males, more than one out of two of them walking around is of Celtic stock.) but there are ALSo 10% minority J2 and 10% minority E present in north Italy as well which puts the Neolithic element or "foreign" non-European elements at 20-25% of the y-DNA. Central Italy is 40-45% R1b, the J2 increases to 20 or so percent but the E remains at around 10%. One we touch the south, only 25-30% of men are R1b Celtic, 20-25% are J2 and 20-25% are E, with the other 20 or so percent being a random amalgams of low percentage haplogroups that don't really represent the italian population as a whole. Levels in Sicily are similar to southern Italy but the J2 has a slight increase to about 28-30% of men. And Sardinia of course is totally different from Italy, and the rest of Europe with its 40-45% Sardinian haplogroup I

adamo
13-04-13, 01:38
Wow I posted that too fast lol.....with its 40 or so percent haplogroup I, 20 percent R1b, 10% J2 and 10% E.

oreo_cookie
13-04-13, 04:09
Sardinians are a genetic isolate and mostly I2.

adamo
13-04-13, 12:10
That is correct. I believe that this haplogroup I2 reached Sardinia via coastal Spain/Iberian peninsula another not Italy or southern France as is often speculated considering Corsica has such high R1b, predominantly of the U-152 variety whereas Sardinians have 20% R1b from later movements whereas the I2 in Sardinia is even older and may represent the first men to arrive to the island.

adamo
13-04-13, 17:24
correction, and NOT from Italy.or FranceFrance

oreo_cookie
14-04-13, 10:17
Corsicans are descended in large part from Ligurian and Tuscan peoples btw.

adamo
14-04-13, 12:10
Yes probably southern French and Tuscans, R1b U-152 is exceptionally high in Corsica, when it got there I don't know wether millennia ago or only a few hundred years but this island is genetically, radically different from neighbouring Sardinia suggesting they had a very different colonization points and period of colonization also different. Sardinia also has the highest haplogroup G pretty much in all Europe (20%) because it received the bulk of the European G2a P15 migration, it headed directly to Sardinia. It would be very interesting to analyze both these Mediterranean islands as they have very different genetic histories

albanopolis
14-04-13, 23:01
Italians look great generally. They dress elegantly, know how to eat, dress and party. I have met many Italian ladies and men and most of them show class. If I had to choose to marry outside my ethnic group, Italians were the first choice. Before arriving to New York I had a high regard for nordics. After seen their lifestyle here my opinion has dramatically changed. Mediterranians are different.

albanopolis
14-04-13, 23:08
By the way I prefer Central and suthern Italians over Northerns. There are some ugly blond north Italain types that make me nervous. Majority of central and southern Italians are good looking in their own way. It happen to know an american women of Swedish disent in New York. She woul travell allway to Rome to meet Italians since in New York majority of Italians are married. I think she new what she was doing. Her anually salary was $200 000.

adamo
19-04-13, 05:56
Italians are interesting and unique in all of Europe...they are what happens when Celtic blood (r1b) and Mesopotamian blood (J2) mix for many many generations. It's interesting to see what this can produce, such as women with black hair and olive skin with big beautiful blue eyes, same for the men, many are good looking, take me for example mo mothers side is from Pisa to the north and they have the curliest blondest hair and bluest eyes you could find, almost like Germans, in fact my grandfather was so handsome that the Germans would not lift a finger in aggression towards him during world war 2, he would smoke and talk with them and they would stare on in awe wondering how a man as Germanic looking as him could be found on the other side of the alps, every acquaintance or friend that he had would refer to him as "il tedescho", or the German. My fathers side where poor farmers from the south, my dads dad ( other grandfather) almost looks Lebanese or Armenian. Interesting combinations in Italy, as in many other countries! : )

Kardu
19-04-13, 09:27
@adamo

You still like to overgeneralize :) R1b - Celtic Blood? :) J2 - Mesopotamian blood?

The Caucasus is full of R1b, are they all Celts? :)

Nobody1
19-04-13, 20:12
Italians look great generally. They dress elegantly, know how to eat, dress and party. I have met many Italian ladies and men and most of them show class. If I had to choose to marry outside my ethnic group, Italians were the first choice.

Whats your Opinion on the Arbereshe?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5FrW0eXULw

Nobody1
19-04-13, 20:15
Before arriving to New York I had a high regard for nordics. After seen their lifestyle here my opinion has dramatically changed. Mediterranians are different.

So you changed your opinion in favor of Mediterraneans, because of Italo-Americans from NYC? those people.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxbtP0uIJ_E

zanipolo
19-04-13, 22:11
90% of Italian immigrants into the USA came from southern Italians

northern Italians went to Argentina and sao paulo brasil ........Canada got some dregs.

adamo
20-04-13, 05:11
Kardu, no the R1b in the Caucasus are not full celts. They simply, long ago, received a very minor Celtic R1b people's migration that subsequently, for many generations, mixed in with local haplogroup lineages. I am not saying those men are celts, as their mothers fathers and other family lineages may be from the Caucasus area, its just that at some point in time, a Germanic man migrated to the Caucasus and left his imprint, genetically lollll, on your family. You have some portion of that blood in you, I'm not saying you're a pure Germanic. And for what concerns Italy, for example, people saying Italians/Romans is not as celts as Western Europe they are more 'southern' Europe, look up pictures of francesco totti or claudio marchisio, marco andreolli, daniele de Rossi, or Christian Maggio and Federico balzaretti. These are all 100% pure italian men from different regions of Italy, and probably they all have at least some/majoritarian R1b in their blood, as 50% of Italians do, or one out of every two men. How can you refer to these men, of which you can find many all across Italy from north to Sicily as being "southern European" phenotype. They look more like Swiss Gauls or French/Belgians to me, typical Western European white men just like Irish English or spaniards. But there are others like cesare Prandelli, lorenzo insigne, Bruno conti ( ex-soccer player) and other Italians ( way too lazy to search for these Assyrian types right now) that are found in isolated villages all across Italy that are obviously not of Celtic stock and still to this day, look more like Palestinians or Armenians than legitimate Europeans.

Kardu
20-04-13, 10:41
@Adamo

Sorry, you need to educate yourself about population genetics and haplogroups. What you claim above is complete nonsense..

Most of the haplogroups are thousands of years older than any historically attested ethnic group, but if you wanna believe your simplistic fairy-tales, choice is yours.

adamo
20-04-13, 19:47
I'm trying to make a modern link to populations found today that heavily harbour that haplogroup. Every haplogroup is "thousands of years old" and if we look back far enough we are all part of the first Adam Y-chromosome haplogroup. So what impact does that have? Are we to negate and ignore all of history because thousands of years ago we where all the same thing........? It's called a "generalized" link to a modern ethnic group, giving insight on what populations have highest frequencies of the particular haplogroup today. If this is "fairy tales" to you then I suggest you go do a few sketches In a children's colouring book at one of those cheap pizza restaurants. You just got served by the way. The ball is in your court now. : ) those haplogroups may be thousands of years old but they eventually settled down somewhere and became over time, a modern population(s) that still exists today.

Kardu
21-04-13, 03:05
BTW first order your own genetic test, let's see what origin you've got, then you can continue with your silly theories, capisci?

adamo
21-04-13, 04:49
I already have taken my own genetic test lolll, I'm Y-DNA T1a1 and maternal H , my father also took the test he's y-DNA T (obviously) and mtdna H. My uncle ( mothers brother) also took the test, he's y-DNA R1b u-152 and mtdna H. From all four grandparents ( I know this only accounts for a small fraction of my total lineages), I'm mtdna H And Y-DNA T mixed with y-DNA R1b ad mtdna H. H+T and H+R1b. I'm about 3/4 typical Western European ( Irish, French, German, Spanish) and 1/4 something else, rare lineage....but what is your point? : )

zanipolo
21-04-13, 12:53
I already have taken my own genetic test lolll, I'm Y-DNA T1a1 and maternal H , my father also took the test he's y-DNA T (obviously) and mtdna H. My uncle ( mothers brother) also took the test, he's y-DNA R1b u-152 and mtdna H. From all four grandparents ( I know this only accounts for a small fraction of my total lineages), I'm mtdna H And Y-DNA T mixed with y-DNA R1b ad mtdna H. H+T and H+R1b. I'm about 3/4 typical Western European ( Irish, French, German, Spanish) and 1/4 something else, rare lineage....but what is your point? : )

Are you not L-299 which is Anatolian and German in majority of tests , in this point in time?

Kardu
21-04-13, 17:29
I already have taken my own genetic test lolll, I'm Y-DNA T1a1 and maternal H , my father also took the test he's y-DNA T (obviously) and mtdna H. My uncle ( mothers brother) also took the test, he's y-DNA R1b u-152 and mtdna H. From all four grandparents ( I know this only accounts for a small fraction of my total lineages), I'm mtdna H And Y-DNA T mixed with y-DNA R1b ad mtdna H. H+T and H+R1b. I'm about 3/4 typical Western European ( Irish, French, German, Spanish) and 1/4 something else, rare lineage....but what is your point? : )
So according to your fancy reductionist theories where does your paternal line fit in? Sumerians, Semites, Kurds, Elamites or?

adamo
21-04-13, 21:41
Yes I am zanipolo lol, that doesn't satisfy me though lolll not enough Information. From my fathers father? The haplogroup T, is probably ancient Mesopotamian or Elamite considering the biggest hotspots of T in the Middle East seem to be centred around southern Iraq/southwestern Iran. Also Jordan has a 21% national hotspot, the worlds highest national level of haplogroup T, but not enough tests have been run in this area in my opinion, only my genographic results revealed this to me. To me it's a rare middle eastern lineage , not much info on it. I also received a heatmap, for T, don't know how to upload it, but there's basically 10% splattered across Egypt, the Sinai peninsula, long stretches of northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and south-central Iraq pretty much. I'm trying to answer kardu there btw.

Carlos
09-08-13, 02:21
I've known Italian all directions. The most rare and strange woman I've met in my life was from the north of Italy in character physically clear but the color was sallow rare white sunbathing not sickly mother was small and skinny and very tanned not seem mother and daughter in nothing but in all central Europeans seemed. I also met a man from northern Italy Rocco reminded me of the actor but is seen to be Italian. From Rome Concia many people once missed a flight and tail Sevilla_Barcelona had people for the next flight to Rome Sevilla very high and they were well fed and well dressed well seemed Italians. I think italinaos have many hobbies and are a bit: look at me but do not touch me, are careful and go to bed early so as not to grow old course are very stylish in dress, I dunno, I think they are a bit passé now my favorites are Berbers.

julia90
10-08-13, 11:40
^Rocco is a name only used for southern italian people, he must be a northern italian with southern origin

Twilight
13-08-13, 21:20
I'm dating a girl that so happens to be Italian, I find it quite ironic and chilling that according to Tacitus the Germanics looked like giants yet when arceologists compared Roman and Germanic Skeletons; the Romans were as tall as the Germanic tribes necks yet that is the same hight proportions as Me and my Gf so does that mean she came from Rome or something. Her surname is Lorella.

Source video: From the Mists of the North, the Germanic Tribes [2005], c2002

Twilight
15-08-13, 07:27
I'm dating an Italian, I find it quite interesting according to Tacitus, the Germanics are seen as giants yet when archeologists compare the Roman bones to Germanic bones apparently the Germanics were a skull taller than the Romans yet that is the hight comparison between me and my gf, her surname is Lorella. Does this mean she is predominately Roman and me predominately Germanic according to my genes? Source: From the Mists of the North, the Germanic Tribes 2005

julia90
16-08-13, 12:41
It depends.. In Italy we are maybe more mediterranean, i d say 60% of su are in the med range.. But of you go in italy and play attention to the local people you may be surprised by the high number of su Who look central european.. In an anthropological and phenotype sense we bridge central europe to the mediterranean world since ever.. We are both med and central euro looking. We have always been like that, central eu and med mix in our country, we have always been a land Who received peopling from the med and from central and even nother europe. In our families you find both typologies, i have oliveish people very med as ancestors as well as fairish pale people central euro looking

Templar
16-08-13, 13:23
hight comparison between me and my gf,

Men are on average a couple of inches taller than women. Usually 3-5 inches, depending on the country in question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world

Drac II
16-08-13, 22:04
It depends.. In Italy we are maybe more mediterranean, i d say 60% of su are in the med range.. But of you go in italy and play attention to the local people you may be surprised by the high number of su Who look central european.. In an anthropological and phenotype sense we bridge central europe to the mediterranean world since ever.. We are both med and central euro looking. We have always been like that, central eu and med mix in our country, we have always been a land Who received peopling from the med and from central and even nother europe. In our families you find both typologies, i have oliveish people very med as ancestors as well as fairish pale people central euro looking

Once again you keep mistaking craniometry with phenotype and pigmentation, despite all the information you have been shown. There is no "Med look" and having "olive" skin is not synonymous with "Mediterranean". Those "oliveish" people in your family may in fact be craniometrically Alpine or Dinaric, you know, the same cranial traits as millions of the "Central Europeans" you want to be identified with.

julia90
17-08-13, 15:47
Well, fact is central euro and genes more adapted to much solar irradiance have always been present in us. We bridge the Two world. And it s the solar irradiance that changes phenotypes.

Twilight
20-08-13, 07:53
Men are on average a couple of inches taller than women. Usually 3-5 inches, depending on the country in question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
Interesting, I'm predominantly scattered around the British Isles as genetics goes. Wonder what happened to make the averages in the Italic heartland the same as the British Isles. No matter, something to research ^_^

Carlos
20-08-13, 15:30
^Rocco is a name only used for southern italian people, he must be a northern italian with southern origin

No, no, it was from northern Italy and did honor to the name of Rocco. perhaps not called Rocco and I baptized him, can not remember exactly, but he said he was from the north of Italy and as he spoke I could see those little houses with sloping roofs and people going to buy their cars.

Angela
20-08-13, 17:00
You know how you feel when you're aware you shouldn't do something, but you do it anyway? LOL

I don't get this. Who cares whether foreigners think northern Italians look more central European and southerners look more Greek and Middle Eastern? Is one better than the other?

Obviously, in general there's going to be some sort of cline and overlap, because neighboring populations tend to look like one another. What's surprising about that?

In fact, what most strikes me about Italy in terms of physical appearance is that whether fair, middling or dark, most Italians look exactly what they are, which is *Italian*.

Carlos
22-08-13, 02:09
Oh, yes Angela. I dedicate this song for you


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbIpl9aYRR4

Angela
22-08-13, 15:59
Uh...thank-you?

Carlos
22-08-13, 22:52
^

Me alegro que le haya gustado.

Yaan
05-10-13, 22:22
North Italians are mixture of Central and South Europe, South Italians(Sicilians included) are South Europe with a bit of Central Europe and maybe just a touch of more exotic influence. Italians are Italians, if Italians are Middle Eastern, Germans are Mongol! Italy is beautiful country with funny,positive and pretty European people!End of story!

Pax Augusta
09-09-14, 14:10
No, no, it was from northern Italy and did honor to the name of Rocco. perhaps not called Rocco and I baptized him, can not remember exactly, but he said he was from the north of Italy and as he spoke I could see those little houses with sloping roofs and people going to buy their cars.

If you baptized him with the name Rocco, used between southern Italians, I highly doubt that you can recognize a real Northern one.

Pax Augusta
09-09-14, 15:38
^Rocco is a name only used for southern italian people, he must be a northern italian with southern origin

He is kidding us.


I think italinaos have many hobbies and are a bit: look at me but do not touch me, are careful and go to bed early so as not to grow old course are very stylish in dress, I dunno, I think they are a bit passé now my favorites are Berbers.

oreo_cookie
19-10-14, 21:31
I will add to this, that Italians are becoming more unified by the fact that an increasing percentage of the northern Italian population is comprised of southerners who are moving north for work. Thus, some degree of regional, cultural, phenotypical differentiation will over time be blurred. But I also don't know if these southerners are assimilating into northern Italian regional culture.

Mars
21-10-14, 21:28
I will add to this, that Italians are becoming more unified by the fact that an increasing percentage of the northern Italian population is comprised of southerners who are moving north for work. Thus, some degree of regional, cultural, phenotypical differentiation will over time be blurred. But I also don't know if these southerners are assimilating into northern Italian regional culture.
Except for some industrial areas, "southernization" of the North is often exaggerated on the Internet. Most of the north is genuinely "northern italian" yet, in large amounts. Generally speaking, and trust me there are people who look northern in the south and viceversa, southerners are more "mediterranean" looking - I mean, shorter on average, with darker hair and eyes - and northerners are taller and often fairer. I notice these different features in women mostly, even more than in men.
A northern woman, with typical features for her area, is Federica Pellegrini:
6774
A typical "southern-looking" woman is Carmen Consoli from Sicily:
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Angela
21-10-14, 22:03
Tsk, tsk, Mars...how ungallant...such an unflattering picture of poor Carmen Consoli...well, unflattering as far as her face goes, anyway...:smile:

6776

These things are so subjective, but your first picture is also not the first image that comes to my mind for a northern Italian woman. This is what I think of:
6777

Or maybe she's what I think of when I think of a uniquely "Italian" woman. The other two could fit elsewhere...there's nothing "special" about them.

Angela
21-10-14, 23:56
Tsk, tsk, Mars...how ungallant...such an unflattering picture of poor Carmen Consoli...well, unflattering as far as her face goes, anyway...:smile:

6776

These things are so subjective, but your first picture is also not the first image that comes to my mind for a northern Italian woman. This is what I think of:
6777

Or maybe she's what I think of when I think of a uniquely "Italian" woman. The other two could fit elsewhere...there's nothing "special" about them.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Maybe it's just me...maybe it's because I find her so...beige, and plain. :disappointed: Or maybe it's because the Italian faces that I think of first, and the ones that I like the most are the ones that almost couldn't be anything but Italian.

motzart
22-10-14, 02:25
Threads like these creep me out

Do you like Italians?

Yes []
No []

What are Italians? a 10 year old girl that has a crush on me?

Angela
22-10-14, 04:42
I'm glad to hear you say that, Motzart. They creep me out too, believe me, but this one has at least segued into a "marginally" respectable discussion of phenotypes. (We used to have a lot more anthrofora types than we have now, thank goodness.)

Sile
22-10-14, 07:53
clizia Fontasier is your typical northern women............not too fair in hair colour., not too wide in the hips yet still feminine

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=clizia+fornasier&client=firefox-a&hs=Ffq&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&biw=1523&bih=734&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=vEVHVJW4EqS4mAXJt4LQDw&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQsAQ

Mars
22-10-14, 09:44
clizia Fontasier is your typical northern women............not too fair in hair colour., not too wide in the hips yet still feminine

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=clizia+fornasier&client=firefox-a&hs=Ffq&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&biw=1523&bih=734&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=vEVHVJW4EqS4mAXJt4LQDw&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQsAQ

I agree, but I was looking for less... pretty examples :-) that's why I chose a swimmer and a songwriter, neither actresses or models, who look simply... "too much", you know what I mean ;) Pellegrini and Consoli are average looking IMO.
A good example of (pretty) woman from the south is apulian showgirl Rossella Brescia IMO
6778

Mars
22-10-14, 09:47
I'm not saying you're wrong. Maybe it's just me...maybe it's because I find her so...beige, and plain. :disappointed: Or maybe it's because the Italian faces that I think of first, and the ones that I like the most are the ones that almost couldn't be anything but Italian.
Beige?! :-) I looked for average-looking italian women. I've seen some threads online in the last few days, on a weird website called appricity or stuff like that, where people post models and actors/actresses to show the "real" (?) look of their own people. It's quite childish, IMO... Pellegrini and Consoli have average look, they're not not much different from the girls I can meet in my city streets :smile:

Sile
22-10-14, 10:54
I agree, but I was looking for less... pretty examples :-) that's why I chose a swimmer and a songwriter, neither actresses or models, who look simply... "too much", you know what I mean ;) Pellegrini and Consoli are average looking IMO.
A good example of (pretty) woman from the south is apulian showgirl Rossella Brescia IMO
6778

federica pelligrini the gold medalists from swimming olympics comes from a town on the mainland on the venetian lagoon

I do not know Rossella

Mars
22-10-14, 12:39
6779
federica pelligrini the gold medalists from swimming olympics comes from a town on the mainland on the venetian lagoon

I do not know Rossella
Rossella Brescia is from the Foggia province (Apulia), if I remember correctly.
This sicilian woman, Valeria Bilello, is a "pan-italian" looking girl:
6781
Anyway, people often forget that we italians consider a group of regions - il Centro, the Centre - not included in the North/South divide but as part of its own. Regions as Tuscany and Latium are part of it... With people looking like this:
6782
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Angela
22-10-14, 17:57
Mars, all of this is so subjective, particularly if it strays into definitions of "attractiveness". I was the one at fault there, so I apologize. It's irrelevant for this purpose that I find that "beige" look not the most attractive in the world ( surely you know what I mean...sandy hair, not particularly very light or very olive skin, intermediate color eyes). I am surprised to hear you say, though, that you see people who look like Pellegrini all the time. Didn't you say you live in Liguria and are mostly Ligurian? There are people with that kind of coloring there, but it's usually far more striking. The features are different too even if the people are fair. I don't think Pellegrini's look is necessarily the typical Piemontese look either or the typical Emilian one. Or is northern Italy for the purposes of this thread just the Veneto and Lombardia north of the Po like it is for Lega Nord?

As for Tuscans, I didn't bring them up. Unless it's because I posted a picture of Cecilia Gallerani as The Lady With the Ermine? I know she was born in Siena, but Gallerani is mainly a surname from what looks like central Emilia Romagna. Plus, there's quite a bit in the classical anthropology literature about her particular look and how it is very diffused in the North, particularly in Emilia perhaps, so maybe that doesn't fit your definition of northern Italy. She did seem to fit the definition of a northern Italian for Lega Nord purposes, however. Didn't they use that painting in a lot of their posters and propaganda pieces? I vaguely remember that it said something to the effect that this is what a Northern Italian looks like...Of course, there may be some fringe Italians even more racist than Lega Nord types. I love that piece of art; I contemplated using it as my avatar more than once, but I didn't want any connection with that group. What a pity...they almost spoiled it for me.

Also, fess up now, Mars, I detect a little bit of pique in your inclusion of Benigni in the Tuscan selection. :) I agree, you're right, discussions like this shouldn't only be about actors and models (although even if they're actors and models, they can embody their regions). However, we don't have to pick the absolutely homeliest residents do we? LOL I adore Benigni for his intellect, and wit, and his comedic genius, and his dedication to Italian culture, but he's a most decidedly funny looking man, as most comedians are...funny looking in a Tuscan way, I'll grant you.

As for the Apricity...I'd stay away from it if I were you. The times someone has told me to check out a thread there I've picked up a virus. I mean a computer virus, of course! Thank God it's only virtual reality! Also, I would think that prolonged exposure would rot the intellect as well as one's moral fiber since those things can definitely be affected by the internet. It's a pity because I saw one or two threads on Italian culture and landscapes there, but it's not enough to save that site for me. Someone should also tell some of those posters that new laws are in the pipeline that make it illegal to post pictures of private individuals on the net without their express consent. They're going to run out of material.

Now, Mars, I don't mean to be rude, but there's a lot of genetics stuff going on which I find fascinating, and even I don't have infinite time for this Board :), so I won't be participating anymore on this thread. Plus, I don't want to dignify a thread which was obviously so "creepy" in its inception, as Motzart pointed out. You, like me, probably didn't pay much attention or remember most of the content on it. Also, my interest in phenotypes is basically limited to what "classifications" of them can add to information about population migrations and gene flow.

Mars
22-10-14, 19:44
I am surprised to hear you say, though, that you see people who look like Pellegrini all the time. Didn't you say you live in Liguria and are mostly Ligurian? There are people with that kind of coloring there, but it's usually far more striking. The features are different too even if the people are fair. I don't think Pellegrini's look is necessarily the typical Piemontese look either or the typical Emilian one. Or is northern Italy for the purposes of this thread just the Veneto and Lombardia north of the Po like it is for Lega Nord?
Well here in the Genoa area her features aren't striking at all among girls with northern italian ancestry. She's not probably "the" northern italian type (but is there only one?), but it's common. The girlfriend of my friend posted for "guessification" in this forum a few weeks ago belongs to that type, and a couple of friends of mine of full ligurian ancestry, too (they're two twin sisters).
Ca'a Angela, pensu de cunusce ben a mé gente, 'a Pellegrini a nu l'è insolita mancu pe' n bellu belin :) :) ;)

joeyc
22-10-14, 20:39
The OP is a notorious Sardianian ***** from Cagliari named Chiara. She has got an obsession for everything Tuscan.

Most of the options are retarded anyway.

Angela
22-10-14, 23:02
Well here in the Genoa area her features aren't striking at all among girls with northern italian ancestry. She's not probably "the" northern italian type (but is there only one?), but it's common. The girlfriend of my friend posted for "guessification" in this forum a few weeks ago belongs to that type, and a couple of friends of mine of full ligurian ancestry, too (they're two twin sisters).
Ca'a Angela, pensu de cunusce ben a mé gente, 'a Pellegrini a nu l'è insolita mancu pe' n bellu belin :) :) ;)

Of course you know Genova better than I do if you have lived there all your life. I'm from the other end, and most of my year is spent elsewhere, so I will take your word for it that she is not unusual for its environs. For you, I will even state that I am now persuaded that she isn't plain. :)

oreo_cookie
25-10-14, 19:16
Just a question since we are on the topic of Genoa -- how closely related are people in Liguria and in Corsica? It has been suggested that their languages are very close, and that a lot of the surnames are shared. How true is this, and also, do they look similar?

Pax Augusta
09-12-14, 18:58
Except for some industrial areas, "southernization" of the North is often exaggerated on the Internet.

(https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGMQFjAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fmeredith5103 %2Fso-very-true-indeed%2F&ei=pCmHVMzDIcnoUvvmgJgI&usg=AFQjCNF2Ig765lTol5Vzk3KrLArBfBj2Sg&sig2=qxBvVc-Zm5rKiISvpA4gjA&bvm=bv.81449611,d.d24)Very true.



Anyway, people often forget that we italians consider a group of regions - il Centro, the Centre - not included in the North/South divide but as part of its own. Regions as Tuscany and Latium are part of it... With people looking like this:
6782
6783

Roberto Benigni (last pic) has an unique look and he has built its success also on this uniqueness. Instead the actress Chiara Francini has a more common look in Tuscany. Like other Italians, Northern Italians included, Tuscans can vary a lot from one another.


Mars, all of this is so subjective, particularly if it strays into definitions of "attractiveness".

I completely agree with you.


As for Tuscans, I didn't bring them up. Unless it's because I posted a picture of Cecilia Gallerani as The Lady With the Ermine? I know she was born in Siena, but Gallerani is mainly a surname from what looks like central Emilia Romagna. Plus, there's quite a bit in the classical anthropology literature about her particular look and how it is very diffused in the North, particularly in Emilia perhaps, so maybe that doesn't fit your definition of northern Italy. She did seem to fit the definition of a northern Italian for Lega Nord purposes, however.

Cecilia Gallerani was born in Milan, not in Siena, but her family was originally from Siena (she was a descendant of Ciampolo and Iacomo Gallerani. Source: F. Calvi, Famiglie notabili milanesi, III, Milano 1874). Like many other Tuscan Ghibelline families Gallerani were forced to move to North Italy. On the other hand, also many Tuscan Guelph families were forced to leave Tuscany.


Just a question since we are on the topic of Genoa -- how closely related are people in Liguria and in Corsica? It has been suggested that their languages are very close, and that a lot of the surnames are shared. How true is this, and also, do they look similar?

Corsican language is based on early Medieval Tuscan, with various morphological and phonetical influences from North (Liguria, especially) to South Italy. There are in Corsica some Ligurian language islands, the most famous is Bonifacio, a town founded by Tuscans around 9th century AD, but Tuscans were later replaced by Genoese people. Another Ligurian language island in Corsica is (or was?) Calvi. A Ligurian heritage can be found in some toponyms (place names ending in -asco, -asca, -usco, -osco, -osca...), but Corsican surnames are generally shared more with the Tuscans. Of course there are in Corsica also many surnames shared with Liguria and more in general with North Italy. Genetically I don't think that Corsicans are exactly the same of Ligurians or Tuscans and neither a mix of them. There were surely many migrations from Tuscany, Sardinia, Liguria, and other Northern Italian regions, and in the last decades from South Italy, but Corsica was already inhabited before any contacts with Italian peninsula during the early Middle Ages.

Mars
09-12-14, 20:47
Just a question since we are on the topic of Genoa -- how closely related are people in Liguria and in Corsica? It has been suggested that their languages are very close, and that a lot of the surnames are shared. How true is this, and also, do they look similar?
Pax Augustea answered absolutely well and precisely to your question. I can only add that a friend of mine used to spend his summer holidays is Corsica, he didn't speak french but often spoke ligurian to the people there, who always understood him.

oreo_cookie
11-12-14, 23:39
Yes, the answer was helpful, thank you.

truth_seeker
09-04-16, 06:30
I have a high opinion of Italians, and so I married one 48 years ago. And we remain married. She is aging gracefully, as have most of her relatives in the US and in Italy. Her mother, an immigrant from Italy to the US in 1946-47 turns 89 next month.

MOESAN
09-04-16, 23:53
Corsican is phonetically very lenitive (softening of hard stops, breathing of soft stops or pure disparition); someones placed Corsican dialects into Toscan ones, but the phonetic is very different.
Theorically I suppose it is easier to a Corsican to understand a Genoan speaking his own dialect than the reverse.

Angela
10-04-16, 15:34
Corsican is phonetically very lenitive (softening of hard stops, breathing of soft stops or pure disparition); someones placed Corsican dialects into Toscan ones, but the phonetic is very different.
Theorically I suppose it is easier to a Corsican to understand a Genoan speaking his own dialect than the reverse.

I love Corsican polyphonic singing, and Corsican music in general, but to understand the meaning I have to resort to the written text. The following song is an example. Reading it, I pick up almost all the meaning, but just listening to it, less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlHoqpFyrK4

MOESAN
11-08-16, 20:31
Thanks Angela, I red this message a bit lately because i don't come too often on this anthropology part, a little tired by some void discussions in some threads. Very beautiful song.
Concerning stops between vowels, corsican is almost identical with iberian romance dialects.
the originality is that this phenomenon impacts also the consonnants at the beginings of words, evocating partly the modern celtic lenition phenomenon. A close enough evolution is seen among all sardinian dialects, with variants, roughly said. An ancient atlantic-west-mediterranean heritage having modified celtic? (let's see the *W- to GW- thing among brittonic Celts and ancient territories of continental Celts (Iberia, France, Northern Italy, not southern ???)

Azzurro
31-08-16, 18:56
The voting options are pretty funny, not because I am Italian, but we are definitely one of the unique peoples of Europe, Do we look more Central European or Middle Eastern, well its a mix there is a wide variety, there is a difference between North and South with the Central having both, Northern Italians have there unique look which I find is shared with neighbouring countries Southern France and Swiss, Southern Italians (I am Southern Italian) have more the Mediterranean look, nice olive skin, but there is also pale Southern Italians. Central Italians get and look more less like Southern Italians especially Southern Tuscany (Livorno, Siena and Grosseto) and Le Marche (generally). There is a general look through out the peninsula, but differences Northern Italians look more like Northwestern and Central Europeans, Central and South look more like neighbouring Southern European countries (Spain, Greece, Portugal, Albania) but also not to far off from Lebanese, Cypriots, Turks and Jewish People and there are even some that have North African look. Same could be said in the Northeast where people will get the Eastern European look.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 02:33
The voting options are pretty funny, not because I am Italian, but we are definitely one of the unique peoples of Europe, Do we look more Central European or Middle Eastern, well its a mix there is a wide variety, there is a difference between North and South with the Central having both, Northern Italians have there unique look which I find is shared with neighbouring countries Southern France and Swiss, Southern Italians (I am Southern Italian) have more the Mediterranean look, nice olive skin, but there is also pale Southern Italians. Central Italians get and look more less like Southern Italians especially Southern Tuscany (Livorno, Siena and Grosseto) and Le Marche (generally). There is a general look through out the peninsula, but differences Northern Italians look more like Northwestern and Central Europeans, Central and South look more like neighbouring Southern European countries (Spain, Greece, Portugal, Albania) but also not to far off from Lebanese, Cypriots, Turks and Jewish People and there are even some that have North African look. Same could be said in the Northeast where people will get the Eastern European look.

After reading this your message it's pretty clear that you have never lived in Italy and you don't even know what you're talking about.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 02:37
Corsican is phonetically very lenitive (softening of hard stops, breathing of soft stops or pure disparition); someones placed Corsican dialects into Toscan ones, but the phonetic is very different. Theorically I suppose it is easier to a Corsican to understand a Genoan speaking his own dialect than the reverse.

Corsican is like a Central Italian dialect from Umbria or north-east Lazio spoken by a far southern Italian. The best definition of Corsican according to me.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 02:40
After reading this your message it's pretty clear that you have never lived in Italy and you don't even know what you're talking about.

You don't even know me? I really don't get how you can come up with assumptions like this, I stated that I am Italian who lives in Canada in another thread, and by the way I spent an entire month in Italy this summer and this is the observation I made from my visit and I also live in area where we are all of 100% Italian descent, you don't have to agree with my statements, and stop suggesting that I am not Italian or no nothing about Italy, because I am very proud to be Italian and know a lot about our History and Culture. Remember I always say some, not all so read carefully.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 02:42
You don't even know me? I really don't get how you can come up with assumptions like this, I stated that I am Italian who lives in Canada in another thread, and by the way I spent an entire month in Italy this summer and this is the observation I made from my visit and I also live in area where we are all of 100% Italian descent, you don't have to agree with my statements, and stop suggesting that I am not Italian or no nothing about Italy, because I am very proud to be Italian.

Some of your posts were enough to understand that you're not Italian. Surely not an Italian from Italy. Your style is very similar to some users from Apricity.

Angela
06-09-16, 02:48
I am losing my patience, "Azzuro". The people you would come into contact with in Montreal, if that is indeed your home, would not be from central or northern Italy or southern France or Switzerland or any of the other places you mentioned, so you indeed have no basis of comparison for your statements.

Something is starting to smell around here. You and Patrizio share a very similar supposed yDna, mtDna and supposed autosomal profile, and use the same language, only he is posting mostly on anthrogenica recently.

I am going to check all his posts. If I find any evidence you two are the same person or playing some game, you'll be permanently banned. Comprende?

Azzurro
06-09-16, 02:52
Some of your posts were enough to understand that you're not Italian. Surely not an Italian from Italy. Your style is very similar to some users from Apricity.

I am Italian and even have an Italian Citizenship, I am not on Apricity, I am in titled to my own opinion and I get that you dislike it, and just letting you know I still have family in Italy, and made friends there, I am very aware of Italians from Italy's opinions, we differ of course since most of us still have the Italian mentality of the 1950's here in North America.

And us 'Americani' Italians might be even more qualified to answer questions like this since we live in highly cosmopolitain cities and have daily contact with people from different ethnicities and cultures.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 03:03
And us 'Americani' Italians might be even more qualified to answer questions like this since we live in highly cosmopolitain cities and have daily contact with people from different ethnicities and cultures.

Europe is not less cosmopolitain than USA, including Italy. Anyway you must decide, you're an Italian-American or an Italian-Canadian? Weren't you from Canada? I notice there is some confusion.

Except those who were born and raised in Italy, Italian-Americans are more qualified to answer questions about Italian-Americans only.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 03:09
I am losing my patience, "Azzuro". The people you would come into contact with in Montreal, if that is indeed your home, would not be from central or northern Italy or southern France or Switzerland or any of the other places you mentioned, so you indeed have no basis of comparison for your statements.

Something is starting to smell around here. You and Patrizio share a very similar supposed yDna, mtDna and supposed autosomal profile, and use the same language, only he is posting mostly on anthrogenica recently.

I am going to check all his posts. If I find any evidence you two are the same person or playing some game, you'll be permanently banned. Comprende?


No most of the people I have been in contact with in Montreal, yes this is my home, are from Southern Italy (Sicilians, Lucani, Napolitans, Campobassans, Abruzzese, Calabrese, Pugliese, and some from Frosinone) there are only Padovans from Northern Italy and Marchigiani from Central. I have been to Switzerland so have been and Southern France of course as Nizza used to be part of Italy and the area around it.

My name isn't Patrizio, my name is Anthony, understood there shouldn't be a problem I am only on this site and ftdna.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 03:13
Europe is not less cosmopolitain than USA, including Italy. Anyway you must decide, you're an Italian-American or an Italian-Canadian? Weren't you from Canada? I notice there is some confusion.

Except those who were born and raised in Italy, Italian-Americans are more qualified to answer questions about Italian-Americans only.

I am Italian-Canadian, Europe yes I get is Cosmopolitain as well but more in the big cities than little towns and villages we can agree on this. Italian Americans and Italian Canadians are Italians as well since we would be full blooded Italians.

Angela
06-09-16, 03:19
I am beyond tired of Americans and/or Canadians telling me that they know what Italians look like and whom they resemble based on what some Italian Americans or Italian Canadians from the south they happen to have come into contact with look like, or based on one vacation there, or even worse on some Mafia movie where they deliberately are looking for "odd" looking people. Italians still living full time in Italy post here, I was born there and spent my childhood there and am there numerous times a year. We know what Italians look like; you don't. End of story.

Where do you people get off? I wouldn't go to Great Britain and tell them what Scots look like compared to the Welsh or to people from Brittany.

Plus, excuse me, but people tell me they're "Italian" all the time once they hear my surname. Sometimes it's correct, and sometimes it's nonsense. I mean, I think it's nice that some half Italian, half something else person so identifies with their Italian side, but they're not Italian.

It gets even worse. A recent example was the painter who came to my house. The owner of the company told me he was half Italian. He wasn't, as I soon discovered when I started to talk to him about it. He was half Hispanic. I guess he thought half Italian sounded better.

Plus, pardon me, but Italian-Americans, including my husband and his whole family, are not "Italian". If you don't understand the language, or know the history and the culture, you're not Italian.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 03:20
I am Italian-Canadian, Europe yes I get is Cosmopolitain as well but more in the big cities than little towns and villages we can agree on this. Italian Americans and Italian Canadians are Italians as well since we would be full blooded Italians.

I got it, so you're a Canadian who claims to be full blooded Italian. Do you speak Italian?

Azzurro
06-09-16, 03:29
Si Securo, not as good I want it to be, but I get by, I am not Canadian, my ethnicity is Italian, I was born in Canada but am of full Italian descent.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 03:37
I am beyond tired of Americans and/or Canadians telling me that they know what Italians look like and whom they resemble based on what some Italian Americans or Italian Canadians from the south they happen to have come into contact with look like, or based on one vacation there, or even worse on some Mafia movie where they deliberately are looking for "odd" looking people. Italians still living full time in Italy post here, I was born there and spent my childhood there and am there numerous times a year. We know what Italians look like; you don't. End of story.

Where do you people get off? I wouldn't go to Great Britain and tell them what Scots look like compared to the Welsh or to people from Brittany.

Plus, excuse me, but people tell me they're "Italian" all the time once they hear my surname. Sometimes it's correct, and sometimes it's nonsense. I mean, I think it's nice that some half Italian, half something else person so identifies with their Italian side, but they're not Italian.

It gets even worse. A recent example was the painter who came to my house. The owner of the company told me he was half Italian. He wasn't, as I soon discovered when I started to talk to him about it. He was half Hispanic. I guess he thought half Italian sounded better.

Plus, pardon me, but Italian-Americans, including my husband and his whole family, are not "Italian". If you don't understand the language, or know the history and the culture, you're not Italian.

I get what your saying, most people in those Mafia films aren't even Italian two good examples from the Godfather Marlon Brando and James Caan. I guess that's fair what you and Pax are saying since I don't live there, but I am still titled to an opinion, but will get this reception. In terms of not being Italian it depends some are more knowledged than others, in terms of culture it depends your definition, history I 100% agree not enough North American Italians know anything about Italian history and language it depends if you were raised with your Nonna's or Zia's, unfortunately some don't even speak a word or know which village they came from (this drives me crazy), at least putting an effort is a good start.

Angela
06-09-16, 03:48
This conversation is going nowhere. Italian Americans are not authorities on what Italians look like. When my husband came with me to my father's ancestral village he said all my relatives looked either Irish or German. I almost punched him. Somebody who is Calabrese and Campanian is not allowed to define who looks "Italian" based on his own area. Heck, his statement didn't even make any sense based on his own family. His full sister is blonde and blue eyed, as was his Campanian grandmother, and his Calabrese grandfather!

Well, in this case he was partly trying to set me off. He succeeded.

As for James Caan, I think he looked very Italian when he was younger, reminded me of my father, in fact, as the coloring is similar, and the body build. His son looks Italian too, and plays them convincingly. Marlon Brando isn't all that bad either.

See what I mean? You're picking out the ones who didn't bother me at all.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 04:00
Yes I agree especially about James Caan he looks exactly like my dads friend, sorry if there was any confusion, I just want to say for us Italian-Canadians/Americans we feel cheated when Italians from Italy say were not Italian (at least I do), because we are very proud of roots and being Italian means everything to us, I live in Quebec the main language here is French and the Quebecois are extremely racist towards us so there is always animosity, we even go to English schools to avoid being associated with their culture and them in general. They don't consider us Canadian and Italians dont consider us Italian so then what are we? I know my opinion towards Italian looks and similarities is very different from the norm usually get into arguements with some people, but I want to add this is based on my experiences and observations, which doesnt mean it is the absolute truth, just what I noticed.

Angela
06-09-16, 04:12
I'm sorry, but all of that sounds very weird. One of my best clients is Sicilian American and his wife is French Canadian, and I never heard of anything like that.

You sound like Sikelliot with his dramas about being abused in Massachusetts because he was so "dark".

It's bunk, pure and simple...a total fantasy. Massachusetts is not different from upstate New York or Pennsylvania or on and on. No one could look more Mediterranean than my husband, and he was the most popular kid in his high school....President of the Student Council, President of each class in high school, Captain of the football team, King of the Prom, you name it. Nobody ever gave him an ounce of grief. If anything he got way more than his fair share of feminine attention.

As for how he identifies, yes, he's proud of his Italian ancestry, but he's an American, first and foremost. That's as it should be. If you're going to move to another country, and get all the benefits of citizenship, you should assimilate. It's more complicated for me, but that's another story.

I don't believe Canada is so different. They're very tolerant people.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 04:22
Angela, Canada is very tolerant, Quebec is the only racist part, Italians in Toronto are quasi-assimilated, I see it differently I am Italian first and Canadian second.

Angela
06-09-16, 04:46
Sorry, there's no point in continuing; you're not convincing me at all. I've never met an Italian-North American from either country, or even heard of one who identified with Italians over Americans, and I've met thousands of them.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 05:00
You can say whatever you want, I associate Italian first and if you havent come to Montreal and go to St Leo everyone there thinks and acts the same way as I do.

Twilight
06-09-16, 06:02
You can say whatever you want, I associate Italian first and if you havent come to Montreal and go to St Leo everyone there thinks and acts the same way as I do.

Watching this all go down, sounds like it depends on your location in North America. There is one town in Washington that nicknames their community "Little Norway" due to all the immigrants that came to Polsbo. And becides, without Italian Culture in North America the idea of Pizza wouldn't of been big over here. ;)

http://www.visitkitsap.com/poulsbo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poulsbo,_Washington

Azzurro
06-09-16, 06:08
Thanks Twilight, and true dont forget Pasta as well ;)

Twilight
06-09-16, 06:23
You're welcome :)


I am beyond tired of Americans and/or Canadians telling me that they know what Italians look like and whom they resemble based on what some Italian Americans or Italian Canadians from the south they happen to have come into contact with look like, or based on one vacation there, or even worse on some Mafia movie where they deliberately are looking for "odd" looking people. Italians still living full time in Italy post here, I was born there and spent my childhood there and am there numerous times a year. We know what Italians look like; you don't. End of story.

Where do you people get off? I wouldn't go to Great Britain and tell them what Scots look like compared to the Welsh or to people from Brittany.

Plus, excuse me, but people tell me they're "Italian" all the time once they hear my surname. Sometimes it's correct, and sometimes it's nonsense. I mean, I think it's nice that some half Italian, half something else person so identifies with their Italian side, but they're not Italian.

It gets even worse. A recent example was the painter who came to my house. The owner of the company told me he was half Italian. He wasn't, as I soon discovered when I started to talk to him about it. He was half Hispanic. I guess he thought half Italian sounded better.

Plus, pardon me, but Italian-Americans, including my husband and his whole family, are not "Italian". If you don't understand the language, or know the history and the culture, you're not Italian.

Don't forget Mario and Luigi ;)
In all seriousness, perhaps your husband was meaning racial classifications? Celt's and Germanic tribes have made their appearances in Italy, but looking cello-Germanic racially doesn't make you any less Itallian.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisalpine_Gaul
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal_Kingdom
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Lombards

Diurpaneus
06-09-16, 10:07
I have been to Italy and Spain,their most common anthropological type
is Dinaric(it can also be expanded to Portugal,including Madeira's
Cristiano Ronaldo) ,the Italians have also an important Alpine strain.
In fact, the Dinaric type is consistently present in Ireland,not to mention France,England or
Germany.




Federico Piovaccari


7975


Portuguese football coach Tony Conceicao


7976

EDIT:

I would say that my stance is a more or less vocal nationalism of Balkanic type,it may look
old-fashioned("you're not good enough"),but I don't intend to upgrade it,for instance, to a
pragmatic,even sometimes, "decent",extremism,inspired from Nazism,Stalinism-Bolshevism or Cold War.

Nevertheless,this post is meant to be objective.

Boreas
06-09-16, 11:55
Plus, pardon me, but Italian-Americans, including my husband and his whole family, are not "Italian". If you don't understand the language, or know the history and the culture, you're not Italian.


That was to harsh.

Angela and Azzurro are both right from their perspective.

Angela:
We are not living in early 20th centuries. I found your nationalistic though too stick.

There are millions of people who lived in abroad, who have dual-citizenship, who try to not lost their identity.

Even myself, my grand father, my father, my brother and me; we were born in different cities. Where is my hometown? That is a kind of tragedy. His tragedy is bigger. :unhappy:

But I agree you, the price of being Italian is high so people even not related can say I am Italian.


Azzuro:
Angela is also right about being Italian and having Italian ancester are different things.

If I am right, you are in the middle of being Italian and being American.

As Cesare did, you can mention about your ancester in Troy but he is Roman, not Trojan :heart:

binx
06-09-16, 13:10
Yes I agree especially about James Caan he looks exactly like my dads friend, sorry if there was any confusion, I just want to say for us Italian-Canadians/Americans we feel cheated when Italians from Italy say were not Italian (at least I do), because we are very proud of roots and being Italian means everything to us, I live in Quebec the main language here is French and the Quebecois are extremely racist towards us so there is always animosity, we even go to English schools to avoid being associated with their culture and them in general. They don't consider us Canadian and Italians dont consider us Italian so then what are we? I know my opinion towards Italian looks and similarities is very different from the norm usually get into arguements with some people, but I want to add this is based on my experiences and observations, which doesnt mean it is the absolute truth, just what I noticed. French don't consider French-Canadians as true French as well. I don't understand why people from diasporas don't accept what they are: new worlders.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 15:01
That was to harsh.

Angela and Azzurro are both right from their perspective.

Angela:
We are not living in early 20th centuries. I found your nationalistic though too stick.

There are millions of people who lived in abroad, who have dual-citizenship, who try to not lost their identity.

Even myself, my grand father, my father, my brother and me; we were born in different cities. Where is my hometown? That is a kind of tragedy. His tragedy is bigger. :unhappy:

But I agree you, the price of being Italian is high so people even not related can say I am Italian.


Azzuro:
Angela is also right about being Italian and having Italian ancester are different things.

If I am right, you are in the middle of being Italian and being American.

As Cesare did, you can mention about your ancester in Troy but he is Roman, not Trojan :heart:

Boreas, yes and thank you, but its not an ancestor it was all my grandparents, we speak only in Italian to them (they can barely speak French, no English at all), still have second cousins living there which were pretty close we speak every couple months, I just spent an entire month there I have been several times, and at the same time yes there is a difference to the Italians in Italy but its not a complete difference, I find we are still relatable culturally, so I guess your right when your saying its like I am half way in between being Italian and being Canadianized.

I also got my Italian citizenship 2 years ago and passport, also receieved the voting card in the mail.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 15:14
Si Securo, not as good I want it to be, but I get by, I am not Canadian, my ethnicity is Italian, I was born in Canada but am of full Italian descent.

Securo? LOL.

Securo, securo?

Azzurro
06-09-16, 16:05
Certo ;) lol

Sei testa dura pero Pax.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 16:12
Certo ;) lol

Sei testa dura pero Pax.

Visto sei sempre meno credibile, la mia testa diventa ancora più dura.

Angela
06-09-16, 16:42
Boreas,
We're in the same boat. I was born in one country, but spend most of my time in another one, although that will change when I get older. I hold dual citizenship. Sometimes, I'm not quite sure where I "fit". When I'm in Italy I sometimes feel very American. Here, after all this time, I still feel very Italian. If I were a young man and for some reason there was a conflict between Italy and the U.S. I would be very torn.

It's totally different for second and third generation Italian-Americans like my husband and all the Italian-Americans I know. When I met him he spoke not one word of Italian, had never been there, and everything he knew of its culture and history he learned in a few classes in general European history in high school. Even what was cooked in his home was strange, and I don't mean only because it was southern Italian cooking. The Neapolitan cooking his grandmother had taught his mother had changed because of the lack of availability of certain ingredients and even the changing tastes of her children. There's no question where his loyalties lie in terms of serving his country. His "country" is the U.S. The same is true of my own children. That doesn't mean that he isn't extraordinarily proud of his ancestry, because he is. Of course, if people here in the U.S. ask him, "What are you?", he's going to say "Italian". This is a kind of exchange that is quite common here. The American is a given. He's not conflicted about any of this; he's very comfortable in his own skin, as are his relatives. It just adds richness to his life. I'm the only conflicted one.

The ties get looser and looser with intermarriage. The rates are extraordinarily high for Italian Americans. Not one of his cousins married someone of Italian ancestry. A few in my family did, but I have 34 first cousins, so that just goes with the odds. Yes, my "half" Italian relatives still primarily identify as "Italian-Americans". They still cook and eat Italian to some extent, come to family reunions every year and play bocce, a few know a bit of the language, but that's because their "Italian" parent came to America pretty recently. Pretty soon, "full" Italian-Americans are going to be as rare as unicorns.

I'll go on record: I don't believe there's an Italian-Canadian or Italian-American anywhere, second or third generation, without a word of Italian, who would say I'm not Canadian or American, I'm Italian. Not unless he has a mental disorder.

Anyone who says such a thing is probably a fake, as are some of these results. First they're Nat Geo results whom staff say are average for southern Italians. When the name of the staff person is requested, all of a sudden the "proof" is someone running a project at FTDNA, someone whose only knowledge of the ancestry of the project members is what they tell him. Then, we have two posters here, Patrizio and Azzuro, who have very similar yDna (claimed to be a "Semitic" J1 clade), and mtDna, and strangely, a Patrizio posts the same data, in almost the same words, making the same arguments, on anthrogenica that Azzuro posts here. If you hear hooves, it's a horse. As soon as I get a chance I'm going to find the exact posts at anthrogenica and see how they compare to those of Azzuro and Patrizio here. If it looks like they're all the same person, both of them are going to be banned. In case it has skipped everyone's mind, you don't get to post under two names here. NO SOCKS ALLOWED! Clear?

This isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened to me. Someone claiming to be half Italian and half German or something, who looked completely Levantine to me, and seemed to know nothing of Italy, when questioned, sent me a photo shopped picture of himself pasted onto a tourist picture of Italy. You can't make this stuff up.

You know, people, if you're going to play these games, you have to get better at it.

@Binx,
Maybe French Canadians are a little different? After all, they're still native French speakers, even if it's a dialect. I think with them that insisting on their "French-ness" has something to do with their political identity in a country where they're a minority.

@Pax Augusta,

There's no point in bickering about it. Let it go. It's clear what's going on. Someone who speaks to his grandparents in Italian who writes "azzuro" and "securo"? Someone who says these bizarre things for an Italian-Canadian? I don't think so.

LABERIA
06-09-16, 16:45
Visto sei sempre meno credibile, la mia testa diventa ancora più dura.

La pazienza e la virtù degli più forti.
Something that i have learned from Italians. I hope that i was correct with my italian.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 17:25
Angela, what your doing is really unnecessary, making false claims about me being this Patrizio fellow, this is my experience and the way how I feel, i will change my flag when I get to my laptop, i dont know how to do it on my phone, just because I dont spell the words properly doesnt make any less or speak less italian, your making me look like a an imposter on a public forum, i have nothing to lie about, you and pax can say whatever you want pose any restrictions, it will not change the fact that I am Italian and no one has the right to say what I am and what I am not because it is I who has the say, I AM OF FULLY ITALIAN DESCENT AND WILL ALWAYS CLAIM MY ITALIAN IDENTITY!!!!!!! FORZA ITALIA, FORZA AZZURRI E FORZA LA FAMIGLIA!!!

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 17:26
La pazienza e la virtù degli più forti.
Something that i have learned from Italians. I hope that i was correct with my italian.

Esattamente, Laberia. Il tuo italiano è perfettamente comprensibile.

Azzurro
06-09-16, 17:41
Pax da vero questo poste me fatto ridere, ho una questione per te, tu trove que Siena e piu bella di Firenze? Per me Siena e na citta bellina.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 17:46
Pax da vero questo poste me fatto ridere, ho una questione per te, tu trove que Siena e piu bella di Firenze? Per me Siena e na citta bellina.

Perché il tuo italiano mi ricorda tanto gli americani che rispondono in spagnolo agli italiani pensando che spagnolo e italiano siano la stessa cosa? :)

Angela
06-09-16, 18:12
Perché il tuo italiano mi ricorda tanto gli americani che rispondono in spagnolo agli italiani pensando che spagnolo e italiano siano la stessa cosa? :)

"Securo, securo"! :)

Azzurro
06-09-16, 19:12
No Italiano e Spagnuolo sono i lingue differente, anche francese e romani e differente, tu e angela veramente sono i genti speciale!!! Securo Securo!

Azzurro
06-09-16, 19:14
And securo is a word, im probably not spelling it right, i use it all the time and in Italy no one said anything, you guys are just being babies.

Hauteville
06-09-16, 19:50
Azzuro is an error, the correct Italian is Azzurro.

Pax Augusta
06-09-16, 20:23
Azzuro is an error, the correct Italian is Azzurro.

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/profile/2191889/

Azzurro
06-09-16, 20:37
That isnt me

Yetos
06-09-16, 21:17
anyway I can regogn an Italian when pronounce that end -uro,
I think is characteristic sound

Angela
06-09-16, 21:22
No Italiano e Spagnuolo sono i lingue differente, anche francese e romani e differente, tu e angela veramente sono i genti speciale!!! Securo Securo!

You think this is Italian? Even google translate would be better. Plus, Italians in their eighties who came from southern Italy wouldn't even be able to write Italian, most of them. All they spoke was dialect. Part of the difficulty for my family in adapting to life in the New World was that we couldn't understand a word that these supposed New World "Italians" were saying to us. They were very kind, most of them, but unintelligible. The older ones could neither speak, read, nor write standard Italian, so how could they have spoken it to you?

Please stop butchering my native language. Plus, you're supposed to post in English on Eupedia. It's one of those pesky rules. Do you have a problem following the rules? No more posting in Italian. It's useless anyway, since you look less authentic by the minute.

If you're using "securo, securo" all the time you must be speaking with a lot of Hispanics. What you've heard Hispanics saying is "seguro, seguro" with the "g" sounding very much like a "c" when they're asked to do something, or asked if they understood, and you thought the Italian word sounds the same. It doesn't. It sounds very different. :)



Yetos, you obviously don't have many dealings with Hispanics.

Hauteville
06-09-16, 21:27
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/profile/2191889/

Uhm, banned from anthroscape for which problem?********?

Azzurro
06-09-16, 21:38
I guess it must be dialect then (the South was ruled by Spain for centuries, kingdom of Aragon) and by the way the Italian Language was created when Italy united from the Florentine and Marchigian dialect. If anything my dialect speaking proves more and more as us Southern Italians are the true Italians not like the Cold Northerners with their racist Lega Nord always blaming all their problems on the South, its bogus, and local dialects should be promoted as we share different histories basically after the fall of Rome.

Angela
06-09-16, 22:47
Just stop. That wasn't dialect; that was a non Italian speaker trying to write standard Italian and making an unholy mess of it. Do you think we don't know the difference? What the heck do the Spanish Bourbons have to do with it? Your post is incoherent.

You know nothing of Italian, Italian dialects, Italians, or Italian-Americans. Did you really think that once questioned you could continue this charade?

Cut it out or there will be consequences.

Also, stop with the Lega Nord nonsense. I don't know the political leanings of other posters, but I personally think Lega Nord extremists are morons. How could I not? I'm married to a southern Italian. Don't you dare try to smear me with any racist filth.

I don't give a damn how much "Asia Minor" is in some southern Italians. What I won't tolerate is breaking the rules here, or lying and distortion. If you're Italian American and you got those kinds of scores, post them and we'll discuss it, but don't pretend to speak Italian when you obviously don't, or pretend to know things about Italy that you obviously don't. It leads to questions about your identity, whether you're using sock accounts etc.

I caution other members. It's a long standing Eupedia rule that your flag is supposed to reflect your IP address. How difficult is it to comply with that?

Yetos
07-09-16, 06:35
Yetos, you obviously don't have many dealings with Hispanics.

Ispanics can be recogned by -or like por favor
the sound of -r with o u is characteristic in Italian Spanish and Francais I think,
at least as spoken in Europe.
but I can not recogn Romanian or Portoguese which are also Latin languages by -r,
besides Ispanics do not have sounds of S or G or X, at least in Europe,
compare Mehico and Mexico,


anyway, this has nothing to do with the latest discuss on thread,
besides Ciabatta Ciapatta Zapatta is the same kind of bread,
but Zapatta is pronounced at Thessaloniki Makedonia, where the word and the bread came with the Separatim Italian Jews from Florence Firenze at 1700,

Boreas
07-09-16, 07:52
Boreas,
We're in the same boat. I was born in one country, but spend most of my time in another one, although that will change when I get older. I hold dual citizenship. Sometimes, I'm not quite sure where I "fit". When I'm in Italy I sometimes feel very American. Here, after all this time, I still feel very Italian. If I were a young man and for some reason there was a conflict between Italy and the U.S. I would be very torn.


Sorry, but I am real confused about your speech. I couldn't understand a person who said these thing, can also insist about someone nationality.

THAT IS HUGE IRONY.

You confess that, you are feeling Italian and American under the different situation. You are free to say it. But not Azzurro :petrified: Azzurro can't feel like Italian.

I am sure that in Italy, he is feeling that he is an Canadian.

For a many American, You always be an European, not American and I am sure that in the eyes of many vulgar Italian people (who live in Italy), you are a lady who adopted American culture.


Boreas,
If I were a young man and for some reason there was a conflict between Italy and the U.S. I would be very torn.


It sounds you are not American or Italian :good_job:




It's totally different for second and third generation Italian-Americans like my husband and all the Italian-Americans I know. When I met him he spoke not one word of Italian, had never been there, and everything he knew of its culture and history he learned in a few classes in general European history in high school.


This is a long process, not switch on-off thing.



I'll go on record: I don't believe there's an Italian-Canadian or Italian-American anywhere, second or third generation, without a word of Italian, who would say I'm not Canadian or American, I'm Italian. Not unless he has a mental disorder.


I guess, I am lunatic.

For me, even staying a few years abroad breaks your Italian purity.

As a first Italian generation in USA, I can imagine how you feel, how you see the second and third generation in there. I am sure that you are feeling deeply that they should not use name Italian.

When I was in UK, I felt same things towards Turks in UK. Also when I came back, I felt that I have missed somethings in my country.

Also about Language,
Just a small historical remind, speaking native language didn't save the Greeks in Turkey or Turks in Greece.

I have talked to much, but I am enjoying and see you precious to talk :heart:

I am lefting West Mediterranean to you, and Focus on East :grin:

Angela
07-09-16, 14:36
You can't compare the feelings of someone born and raised in a country who then moves elsewhere, to someone one hundred years removed who has only visited that country once as a tourist and doesn't even know the language.

Plus, even if it were possible, I know New World Italians and you don't. I know the culture here and how these people feel and you don't . No third generation Italian Canadian or Italian American would ever claim they feel more Italian than Canadian, not unless they're mentally disturbed.

I said it upthread and I'll repeat it in case you missed it.

Ed. There's a reason I very rarely discuss Italian politics. Some of my family members have told me that until I live there at least most of the year, and pay taxes there, I should just shut up.

So, usually, if not always, I do. :)

I do get the point, and yes, I'm torn a lot of the time. People born and raised here, including my children, don't have these conflicts.

LeBrok
08-09-16, 03:41
Also about Language,
Just a small historical remind, speaking native language didn't save the Greeks in Turkey or Turks in Greece.

Great example of ethnicity being very fluent indead.

New Englander
18-12-16, 21:48
Genetically speaking:

Northern Italians are basically 85% Roman + 15% German

Southern Italians are about 85% Roman + 15% Palestinian

Sicilians are about 70% Greek and 30% Assyrian

As far as pheotypes go, I dont think it deters from the autosomal results.

Joey D
19-12-16, 05:10
still northern italians are closer to southern italians than they are to austrians (excepting the ones from sud-tyrol). Northern italians also flirt way more with women than a typical germanic person, they also tend to live longer at house with parents and importance of family is big, afterall it's still Italy. France is a different case, when I've been in northern france I didnt feel at all in southern europe, but some cross of western/central european mentalities and values, opposed to deep south mediterranean french coast where the southern european mentalities and lifestyle are all around.

The one common thread cutting across all Italian males, each and everyone is a bigger mammone than the next.

Joey D
19-12-16, 05:47
For Italian sicuro, in Sicilian we have the almost identical word, sicuru. Interestingly, I probably would not have immediately picked up on "securo" being incorrect because the non-accented "i" in Sicilian is often an "e" in Italian, so working in the opposite direction from Sicilian sicuru, it would not be too difficult for me to imagine that the correct Italian is securo, so from that perspective, it's actually a logical error for a Sicilian to make, or put another way, it would not be picked up as an error so easily by a Sicilian (or someone more familiar with Sicilian) because it follows the usual sound shifts between the two languages.

Angela
19-12-16, 18:06
The one common thread cutting across all Italian males, each and everyone is a bigger mammone than the next.

Even in Australia? :) Well, with the mothers they have, who can blame them? I created one myself, and I didn't even know I was doing it! Well, he's not living home, but otherwise...

Seriously, it's not only a phenomenon among Italian men, if we look only at attachment. I was once at a dinner party where we were playing one of those silly conversational games. One of them presented the question of whom would you save first if you and your family members were all drowning. My husband eagerly said, wait, I want to go first; this is so easy. First she'd save her mother, then her children, then her father, then me. He was quite good humored about it, which amazed our friends. That isn't actually what I would have done, as of course the children have to be saved first, but you get the gist. Those were the kind of moments when I knew I was right to marry an Italian; there are so many things you don't have to explain. :) Of course, there were other times when I didn't feel that way! :)

Sile
19-12-16, 19:20
Genetically speaking:

Northern Italians are basically 85% Roman + 15% German

Southern Italians are about 85% Roman + 15% Palestinian

Sicilians are about 70% Greek and 30% Assyrian

As far as pheotypes go, I dont think it deters from the autosomal results.

more like

Northern Italians are basically 50% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Gallic/Celtic +20% Roman + 10% Germanic ( Lombard or Goth )

Central Italians are basically 50% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Gallic/Ligurian +20% Roman + 10% Germanic

Southern Italians are about 50% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Greek +20% Roman + 10% MiddleEastern

Sicilians are about 30% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Phoenician +20% Greek ( other Balkans ) + 10% Iberian + 10% NorthAfrican +10% Others

Hauteville
20-12-16, 12:39
more like

Northern Italians are basically 50% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Gallic/Celtic +20% Roman + 10% Germanic ( Lombard or Goth )

Central Italians are basically 50% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Gallic/Ligurian +20% Roman + 10% Germanic

Southern Italians are about 50% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Greek +20% Roman + 10% MiddleEastern

Sicilians are about 30% indigenous pre-Roman + 20% Phoenician +20% Greek ( other Balkans ) + 10% Iberian + 10% NorthAfrican +10% Others

LOL are you joking?Phoenician admix could be present maybe in modern Marsala, maybe, because was the only city founded by them. In no way is comparable to Greek admix (who lived in around 20 cities in antiquity) and 10% North African is a joke, it's no more than 1.5% judging by Y-DNA.


Sicilians are about 40% indigenous pre-Roman + 30% Greek + 20% Roman + 10% Others (Lombards, Arbereshe, Tuscans, small numbers of Germanics, Iberians and 1% North African

Fixed

Hauteville
20-12-16, 12:48
Genetically speaking:

Northern Italians are basically 85% Roman + 15% German

Southern Italians are about 85% Roman + 15% Palestinian

Sicilians are about 70% Greek and 30% Assyrian

As far as pheotypes go, I dont think it deters from the autosomal results.
Greek (especially islanders) are as Assyrian and Palestinian as Sicilians and South Italians who are genetically close each others...Asia Minor Greeks and Cypriots are much more West Asians...

Sile
20-12-16, 19:09
LOL are you joking?Phoenician admix could be present maybe in modern Marsala, maybe, because was the only city founded by them. In no way is comparable to Greek admix (who lived in around 20 cities in antiquity) and 10% North African is a joke, it's no more than 1.5% judging by Y-DNA.



Fixed

Really, do you think that Carthaginian are not Phoenician in origin or the Liby of Libya, the Phoenicians from Cadiz in Iberia ..........Where phoenicians settled , they renamed themselves.......all western and south western people in sicily will be either Carthaginian or liby or Iberian or from the northern levant where all of phoenician origin ...........

Azzurro
20-12-16, 19:23
For Italian sicuro, in Sicilian we have the almost identical word, sicuru. Interestingly, I probably would not have immediately picked up on "securo" being incorrect because the non-accented "i" in Sicilian is often an "e" in Italian, so working in the opposite direction from Sicilian sicuru, it would not be too difficult for me to imagine that the correct Italian is securo, so from that perspective, it's actually a logical error for a Sicilian to make, or put another way, it would not be picked up as an error so easily by a Sicilian (or someone more familiar with Sicilian) because it follows the usual sound shifts between the two languages.

Thanks Joey, you understood this, I generally always write e where it should be an i.

Hauteville
20-12-16, 19:41
Phoenicians only settled in two towns in Sicily Palermo and Mozia but even in these two towns (emporiums) the population was mostly made by Elimi, Sicani and Greeks, in no way they left 20% of gene pool in modern Sicilians, on pair with Greeks and even more than Romans, just this could explain all. Maybe there are some remnants in modern Marsala but Romans made an ethnic cleansing against Punic ethnicity all over the Mediterranean basin.

https://s28.postimg.org/4rh1ph0bx/Sicilia_antica.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/tkqlq4jc9/)caricare immagini (https://postimage.org/index.php?lang=italian)

Hauteville
20-12-16, 19:49
Really, do you think that Carthaginian are not Phoenician in origin or the Liby of Libya, the Phoenicians from Cadiz in Iberia ..........Where phoenicians settled , they renamed themselves.......all western and south western people in sicily will be either Carthaginian or liby or Iberian or from the northern levant where all of phoenician origin ...........

There are not genetical differences between East and Western Sicily:


our results point to a substantially homogeneous composition of maternal and paternal genetic pools both within Sicily (East vs. West) as well as between Sicily and Southern Italy

About North African admixture that you place in 10% in Sicily:


At this respect, the distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M81 is widely associated in literature with recent gene flows from North-Africa [49] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-Bekada1). Besides the low frequency (1.5%) of E-M81 lineages in general observed in our SSI dataset, the typical Maghrebin core haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 [8] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-DiGaetano1) has been found in only two out of the five E-M81 individuals. These results, along with the negligible contribution from North-African populations revealed by the admixture-like plot analysis, suggest only a marginal impact of trans-Mediterranean gene flows on the current SSI genetic pool.

Luckily we have the science.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

Azzurro
20-12-16, 20:38
There are not genetical differences between East and Western Sicily:


About North African admixture that you place in 10% in Sicily:


Luckily we have the science.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

I would think North African is at max 2%, maybe a couple of minor lineages there for the additional 0.5%, and I doubt the Cartheginians would have brought it, more likely the Emirate period, the Phoenician and Carthegian component is most likely mixed and spread out, it would be hard to know their genetic impact on Sicily, and I would think they would appear as more Levantine, as possibly the elite class set up the trading posts, maybe with the upcoming Sardinian paper we will find Carthegian Y-dna, they were there for 300 years surely some Y lines must of survived.

Hauteville
23-12-16, 12:44
I would think North African is at max 2%, maybe a couple of minor lineages there for the additional 0.5%, and I doubt the Cartheginians would have brought it, more likely the Emirate period, the Phoenician and Carthegian component is most likely mixed and spread out, it would be hard to know their genetic impact on Sicily, and I would think they would appear as more Levantine, as possibly the elite class set up the trading posts, maybe with the upcoming Sardinian paper we will find Carthegian Y-dna, they were there for 300 years surely some Y lines must of survived.
In the complete study, the few E-M81 is mostly from a different haplotype than the north african one, which means it was introduced in a very old period.

Seanp
28-12-16, 11:15
The stereotypes and pseudoscience claims about South Italians being more criminal and lesser Italian comes from Cesare Lombrosso - an Italian Jewish criminologist who himself believed Jews and North Italians are the "superior" beings.

firetown
12-01-17, 17:37
8373

This guy is Italian. Northern Italian of course. Maybe I need more images from Northern Italians, but the Austrians I know generally speaking have more of a "Latin Look" than him. But that could also be the small Hungarian influence.







humh... i don't know if austrians look like northern italians.. i think not.. i've always conisdered austrians as northern europeans germanic, and not central europeans.. northern italians should look much more like swiss and french


here's a map i made morphing footballplayers from europeans ethnicities.. if if it's a bit off topic
the italian one is both of northern and southern italians.. so it couldn't help much
http://s16.postimage.org/jxtjhc3s1/Europe_Phenotypes.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/jxtjhc3s1/)

Seanp
09-02-17, 15:10
Genetically speaking:

Northern Italians are basically 85% Roman + 15% German

Southern Italians are about 85% Roman + 15% Palestinian

Sicilians are about 70% Greek and 30% Assyrian

As far as pheotypes go, I dont think it deters from the autosomal results.

Everything you wrote i disqualified based on reliable genetic matches.

Greeks in this test are a mix of Mainlanders and Islanders, where as in most cases Greek samples are Macedonians or Thracians/Slavovlachs.

See this map below how they cluster next to South Italians and Ashkenazi Jews

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PGDOAXOsPyo/VBjtDW8kuQI/AAAAAAAABWs/RThrI0BMKOU/s400-no/Jtest_pca12s_small.png


I used a full Ashkenazi genome which shows how different they're compared to any European population, minor traces of recent East European falsely put them within the European cluster which is not the case.
Sicilians for the most part are within the South European cluster and more related to North Italians than to any Near Eastern population.

Genetically speaking South Italians cluster south of Central Italians and Balkan populations, but less Mediterranean/Near Eastern genetically than Western Jews, Anatolian/Islander Greeks, Cypriots, Turks. North Italians overlap genetically with the surrounding regions including Southern France, Alps and Central Italy.

Based on gedmatch.

Full Ashkenazi Jewish score (no recent East European ancestry unlike most Ashkenazim)

#


Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
34.05


2

MIDDLE_EASTERN
16.54


3
WEST_MED
15.53


4
ATLANTIC
10.59


5
WEST_ASIAN
8.82


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
7.95


7
EAST_EURO
4.99


8
SOUTH_BALTIC
0.77


9
EAST_ASIAN
0.47


10
EAST_AFRICAN
0.23


11
SIBERIAN
0.05



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
AJ
7.93


2
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
8.67


3
GR
10.65


4
Tuscan
18.35


5
Samaritan
18.43


6
IQ
19.86


7
Druze
21.32


8
TR
21.91


9
Assyrian
22.19


10
Mandean
22.79


11

North_Italian
22.92


12
Armenian
24.96


13
RO
25.65


14
Kurdish
26.54


15
Serbian
27.04


16
IR
27.14


17
PT
27.64


18
Algerian
28.2


19
Moroccan
29.14


20
ES
29.45



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1


64.5%
Samaritan
+
35.5%
FR
@
4.21


2

62%
Samaritan
+
38%
ES
@
4.51


3

60.4%
Samaritan
+
39.6%
PT
@
4.64


4


50.1%
Tuscan
+
49.9%
Samaritan
@
4.86


5

68.8%
Samaritan
+
31.2%

Cornish
@
5.04


6

55.8%
Samaritan
+
44.2%
North_Italian
@
5.04


7

69%
Samaritan
+
31%
English
@
5.43


8

70.4%
Samaritan
+
29.6%
French_Basque
@
5.5


9

70.1%
Samaritan
+
29.9%
IE
@
5.54


10

75.7%
AJ
+
24.3%
Samaritan
@
5.58


11

68.6%
Samaritan
+
31.4%
NL
@
5.61


12

70%
Samaritan
+
30%
Orcadian
@
5.68


13

70.6%
Samaritan
+
29.4%
Scottish
@
5.73


14

86.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
13.6%
Bedouin
@
5.79


15

73.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
26.9%
Samaritan
@
5.79


16

67.9%
Samaritan
+
32.1%
West_&_Central_German
@
5.86


17

70.1%
Samaritan
+
29.9%
DK
@
5.92


18

79.9%
AJ
+
20.1%
Druze
@
6.02


19

82.6%
GR
+
17.4%
Bedouin
@
6.27


20

71.2%
Samaritan
+
28.8%
NO
@
6.52



- Very far from most European populations
- Around 60% recent Middle Eastern ancestry mixed with 40% West, Central European
- Doesn't look like a South European genetic profile rather a mix of an Arab and a Western European person.


Now compare it to a Sicilian from Palermo.

#


Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.18


2
WEST_MED
19.65


3
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
13.11


4
ATLANTIC
12.81


5

MIDDLE_EASTERN
9.42


6
WEST_ASIAN
8.56


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.35


8
EAST_EURO
1.63


9
EAST_AFRICAN
1.03


10
WEST_AFRICAN
0.26



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
4.78


2
GR
8.41


3
Tuscan
8.46


4
AJ
8.72


5

North_Italian
14.02


6
PT
19.66


7
RO
20.07


8
ES
21.63


9
Serbian
21.65


10
TR
23.98


11
FR
24.88


12
AT
26.63


13
Samaritan
27.26


14
Assyrian
27.38


15
HU
27.52


16
IQ
27.58


17
Armenian
28.03


18
Druze
28.18


19
Moroccan
28.92


20
Mandean
29.33



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

76.7%
Tuscan
+
23.3%
Samaritan
@
1.79


2

67.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
32.9%
Tuscan
@
2.73


3

83.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
16.2%
PT
@
2.94


4

78%
Tuscan
+
22%
Druze
@
2.98


5

85.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.5%
ES
@
3.09


6

87.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
12.1%
FR
@
3.35


7

80.2%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
19.8%
North_Italian
@
3.4


8

91.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.1%
French_Basque
@
3.64


9

91.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.6%
English
@
3.7


10

91.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.4%
Cornish
@
3.75


11

91.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.5%
NL
@
3.77


12

92.2%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.8%
DK
@
3.77


13

91.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.6%
West_&_Central_German
@
3.83


14

92.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.1%
NO
@
3.89


15

92.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.4%
Orcadian
@
3.91


16

93.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.9%
South_&_Central_Swedish
@
3.93


17

92.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.2%
IE
@
3.94


18

93.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.9%
Scottish
@
3.96


19

93.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.6%
Sardinian
@
3.98


20

91.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.9%
AT
@
4.03




- All the top matches are South European populations and the top 5 is North Italian
- Almost half less Middle Eastern than the AJ genome.
- Fit within the range of a South European as all the top matches are European populations.



For comparison a Greek person from Chios:

#


Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
37.05


2
WEST_MED
16.71


3
WEST_ASIAN
15.27


4
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
11.23


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
9.63


6
ATLANTIC
4.94


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
3.75


8
EAST_EURO
1.06


9
EAST_ASIAN
0.36



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
GR
7.05


2
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
8.87


3
AJ
11.34


4
TR
16.97


5
Assyrian
17.78


6
Tuscan
18.69


7
Armenian
19.28


8
Druze
19.37


9
Mandean
20.41


10
Samaritan
20.59


11
IQ
21.35


12
Kurdish
22.71


13
IR
23.79


14

North_Italian
24.31


15
RO
26.04


16
Serbian
27.83


17
PT
30.88


18
ES
32.92


19
GE
34.24


20
HU
34.37



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1


79.7%
GR
+
20.3%
Druze
@
5.22


2

73.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
26.7%
Druze
@
5.76


3

83.1%
GR
+
16.9%
Samaritan
@
5.8


4

81.2%
GR
+
18.8%
Assyrian
@
5.89


5

84.2%
GR
+
15.8%
Mandean
@
6.03


6

72.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
27.7%
Assyrian
@
6.15


7

51%
Tuscan
+
49%
Druze
@
6.25


8

86.1%
GR
+
13.9%
Armenian
@
6.41


9

87.6%
GR
+
12.4%
IQ
@
6.43


10

91.2%
GR
+
8.8%
Kurdish
@
6.73


11

77%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
23%
Mandean
@
6.74


12

76%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
24%
Armenian
@
6.79


13

89.2%
GR
+
10.8%
TR
@
6.79


14

96.2%
GR
+
3.8%
Bedouin
@
6.8


15

92.7%
GR
+
7.3%
IR
@
6.82


16

96.6%
GR
+
3.4%
GE
@
6.95


17


51.5%
Assyrian
+
48.5%
Tuscan
@
6.98


18

100%
GR
+
0%
AJ
@
7.05


19

100%
GR
+
0%
Algerian
@
7.05


20

100%
GR
+
0%
AT
@
7.05



- This Greek profile shows more recent Near Eastern migrations possibly from Anatolia.
- Instead of Middle Eastern the West Asian increased which correspond with geography.
- Very distant from North Italians and clearly distinguisable from even a South Italian genome.

DuPidh
09-02-17, 16:35
Here is how I view the Italians:
Generally civilized people, respect other races or ethnicity
My view is that Italians are artistically above the average of other European ethnicity

Boreas
09-02-17, 19:18
Here is how I view the Italians:
Generally civilized people, respect other races or ethnicity
My view is that Italians are artistically above the average of other European ethnicity

I don't think it's about genetic. Because range between italians as large as range between of Germanic people,so there is no close genetic similarity between all Italians

MOESAN
09-02-17, 20:17
8373

This guy is Italian. Northern Italian of course. Maybe I need more images from Northern Italians, but the Austrians I know generally speaking have more of a "Latin Look" than him. But that could also be the small Hungarian influence.

This map with these mathematical european mean types is ridiculous (no offense to you of course) - history of phenotypes producing this weird results is complicated and cannot be resumed like this -

Angela
09-02-17, 21:01
Everything you wrote i disqualified based on reliable genetic matches.

Greeks in this test are a mix of Mainlanders and Islanders, where as in most cases Greek samples are Macedonians or Thracians/Slavovlachs.

See this map below how they cluster next to South Italians and Ashkenazi Jews

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PGDOAXOsPyo/VBjtDW8kuQI/AAAAAAAABWs/RThrI0BMKOU/s400-no/Jtest_pca12s_small.png


I used a full Ashkenazi genome which shows how different they're compared to any European population, minor traces of recent East European falsely put them within the European cluster which is not the case.
Sicilians for the most part are within the South European cluster and more related to North Italians than to any Near Eastern population.

Genetically speaking South Italians cluster south of Central Italians and Balkan populations, but less Mediterranean/Near Eastern genetically than Western Jews, Anatolian/Islander Greeks, Cypriots, Turks. North Italians overlap genetically with the surrounding regions including Southern France, Alps and Central Italy.

Based on gedmatch.

Full Ashkenazi Jewish score (no recent East European ancestry unlike most Ashkenazim)

#


Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
34.05


2

MIDDLE_EASTERN
16.54


3
WEST_MED
15.53


4
ATLANTIC
10.59


5
WEST_ASIAN
8.82


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
7.95


7
EAST_EURO
4.99


8
SOUTH_BALTIC
0.77


9
EAST_ASIAN
0.47


10
EAST_AFRICAN
0.23


11
SIBERIAN
0.05



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
AJ
7.93


2
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
8.67


3
GR
10.65


4
Tuscan
18.35


5
Samaritan
18.43


6
IQ
19.86


7
Druze
21.32


8
TR
21.91


9
Assyrian
22.19


10
Mandean
22.79


11

North_Italian
22.92


12
Armenian
24.96


13
RO
25.65


14
Kurdish
26.54


15
Serbian
27.04


16
IR
27.14


17
PT
27.64


18
Algerian
28.2


19
Moroccan
29.14


20
ES
29.45



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1


64.5%
Samaritan
+
35.5%
FR
@
4.21


2

62%
Samaritan
+
38%
ES
@
4.51


3

60.4%
Samaritan
+
39.6%
PT
@
4.64


4


50.1%
Tuscan
+
49.9%
Samaritan
@
4.86


5

68.8%
Samaritan
+
31.2%

Cornish
@
5.04


6

55.8%
Samaritan
+
44.2%
North_Italian
@
5.04


7

69%
Samaritan
+
31%
English
@
5.43


8

70.4%
Samaritan
+
29.6%
French_Basque
@
5.5


9

70.1%
Samaritan
+
29.9%
IE
@
5.54


10

75.7%
AJ
+
24.3%
Samaritan
@
5.58


11

68.6%
Samaritan
+
31.4%
NL
@
5.61


12

70%
Samaritan
+
30%
Orcadian
@
5.68


13

70.6%
Samaritan
+
29.4%
Scottish
@
5.73


14

86.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
13.6%
Bedouin
@
5.79


15

73.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
26.9%
Samaritan
@
5.79


16

67.9%
Samaritan
+
32.1%
West_&_Central_German
@
5.86


17

70.1%
Samaritan
+
29.9%
DK
@
5.92


18

79.9%
AJ
+
20.1%
Druze
@
6.02


19

82.6%
GR
+
17.4%
Bedouin
@
6.27


20

71.2%
Samaritan
+
28.8%
NO
@
6.52



- Very far from most European populations
- Around 60% recent Middle Eastern ancestry mixed with 40% West, Central European
- Doesn't look like a South European genetic profile rather a mix of an Arab and a Western European person.


Now compare it to a Sicilian from Palermo.

#


Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.18


2
WEST_MED
19.65


3
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
13.11


4
ATLANTIC
12.81


5

MIDDLE_EASTERN
9.42


6
WEST_ASIAN
8.56


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.35


8
EAST_EURO
1.63


9
EAST_AFRICAN
1.03


10
WEST_AFRICAN
0.26



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
4.78


2
GR
8.41


3
Tuscan
8.46


4
AJ
8.72


5

North_Italian
14.02


6
PT
19.66


7
RO
20.07


8
ES
21.63


9
Serbian
21.65


10
TR
23.98


11
FR
24.88


12
AT
26.63


13
Samaritan
27.26


14
Assyrian
27.38


15
HU
27.52


16
IQ
27.58


17
Armenian
28.03


18
Druze
28.18


19
Moroccan
28.92


20
Mandean
29.33



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

76.7%
Tuscan
+
23.3%
Samaritan
@
1.79


2

67.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
32.9%
Tuscan
@
2.73


3

83.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
16.2%
PT
@
2.94


4

78%
Tuscan
+
22%
Druze
@
2.98


5

85.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.5%
ES
@
3.09


6

87.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
12.1%
FR
@
3.35


7

80.2%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
19.8%
North_Italian
@
3.4


8

91.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.1%
French_Basque
@
3.64


9

91.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.6%
English
@
3.7


10

91.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.4%
Cornish
@
3.75


11

91.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.5%
NL
@
3.77


12

92.2%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.8%
DK
@
3.77


13

91.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.6%
West_&_Central_German
@
3.83


14

92.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.1%
NO
@
3.89


15

92.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.4%
Orcadian
@
3.91


16

93.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.9%
South_&_Central_Swedish
@
3.93


17

92.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
7.2%
IE
@
3.94


18

93.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.9%
Scottish
@
3.96


19

93.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.6%
Sardinian
@
3.98


20

91.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
8.9%
AT
@
4.03




- All the top matches are South European populations and the top 5 is North Italian
- Almost half less Middle Eastern than the AJ genome.
- Fit within the range of a South European as all the top matches are European populations.



For comparison a Greek person from Chios:

#


Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
37.05


2
WEST_MED
16.71


3
WEST_ASIAN
15.27


4
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
11.23


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
9.63


6
ATLANTIC
4.94


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
3.75


8
EAST_EURO
1.06


9
EAST_ASIAN
0.36



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
GR
7.05


2
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
8.87


3
AJ
11.34


4
TR
16.97


5
Assyrian
17.78


6
Tuscan
18.69


7
Armenian
19.28


8
Druze
19.37


9
Mandean
20.41


10
Samaritan
20.59


11
IQ
21.35


12
Kurdish
22.71


13
IR
23.79


14

North_Italian
24.31


15
RO
26.04


16
Serbian
27.83


17
PT
30.88


18
ES
32.92


19
GE
34.24


20
HU
34.37



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1


79.7%
GR
+
20.3%
Druze
@
5.22


2

73.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
26.7%
Druze
@
5.76


3

83.1%
GR
+
16.9%
Samaritan
@
5.8


4

81.2%
GR
+
18.8%
Assyrian
@
5.89


5

84.2%
GR
+
15.8%
Mandean
@
6.03


6

72.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
27.7%
Assyrian
@
6.15


7

51%
Tuscan
+
49%
Druze
@
6.25


8

86.1%
GR
+
13.9%
Armenian
@
6.41


9

87.6%
GR
+
12.4%
IQ
@
6.43


10

91.2%
GR
+
8.8%
Kurdish
@
6.73


11

77%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
23%
Mandean
@
6.74


12

76%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
24%
Armenian
@
6.79


13

89.2%
GR
+
10.8%
TR
@
6.79


14

96.2%
GR
+
3.8%
Bedouin
@
6.8


15

92.7%
GR
+
7.3%
IR
@
6.82


16

96.6%
GR
+
3.4%
GE
@
6.95


17


51.5%
Assyrian
+
48.5%
Tuscan
@
6.98


18

100%
GR
+
0%
AJ
@
7.05


19

100%
GR
+
0%
Algerian
@
7.05


20

100%
GR
+
0%
AT
@
7.05



- This Greek profile shows more recent Near Eastern migrations possibly from Anatolia.
- Instead of Middle Eastern the West Asian increased which correspond with geography.
- Very distant from North Italians and clearly distinguisable from even a South Italian genome.

You have lost sight of the topic of this thread, which does not concern genetics. Please indulge your obsession with Italian genetics on an appropriate thread.

Carlos
10-02-17, 02:45
It could be said that the current Europeans who are most similar across the world are those of the Middle East. Obviously the Italians have their own seal either from the south or from the north, with contrasting nuances and saving the distances I think the Italians would look more generally to the Middle East than the Central European.

Seanp
10-02-17, 17:25
It could be said that the current Europeans who are most similar across the world are those of the Middle East. Obviously the Italians have their own seal either from the south or from the north, with contrasting nuances and saving the distances I think the Italians would look more generally to the Middle East than the Central European.

I can't tell Spanish and Italians apart but it's very easy for me to distinguish those people from Syrians or Moroccans. I'd say most South Europeans except Cypriots and some Greeks look more similar to Central Europeans than to any sort of Middle Easterner (except the Caucasus. )

back to topic:
It's almost impossible to tell a Northerner and a Southerner apart just by looks, yellow haired people exist in all corners of Italy as well as some exotic (often referred as Middle Eastern looking)
It's more easy to tell them apart based on speech including body language and the way they behave.
I used to have a friend from Campania and his body language was visibly more active than any people i knew from the North, but many Northerners are of Southern descent.

Carlos
03-04-17, 16:19
Obviously the Italians are like the Italians, but if it is a question of seeking a remote essence in similarity, I consider that Europeans in general would be more like the people of the Near East than those of another place on the planet.

The Italians are among the most beautiful people on the planet, it is a country to take off the hat, one of the greatest nations that has given humanity, a great culture.

New Englander
03-05-17, 04:27
1
EAST_MED
26.74


2
ATLANTIC
15.93


3
WEST_MED
15.24


4
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
11.6


5
WEST_ASIAN
10.31


6
MIDDLE_EASTERN
7.48


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
6.55


8
EAST_EURO
5.48


9
SOUTH_ASIAN
0.61


10
WEST_AFRICAN
0.05




And somehow I have more "West Asian" than both the Jew, and Italian samples.

My Combined MENA and West Asian = 18%
Italian = 18%
Jew = 25%
Greek = 25%

Angela
03-05-17, 18:29
Did you run out of appropriate threads for posting your gedmatch results?

You don't want to turn into a Sikelliot, do you? It's not a good path.

harena
26-05-17, 20:36
You should probably first define what is North Italy and what is South Italy. I feel that Italy, just like France, is a country too diverse for such a simplistic dichotomic partition.
Personally I perceive at least 4 major ethno-cultural macroregions among ethnic Italians (Aosta Valley and Südtirol are thus excused), which are based primarily on genetics and culture:

- Northern Italy: Piedmont, Lombardy, Veneto, Trentino, Friuli Venezia-Giulia
- Central Italy: Liguria*, Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany, Marche, Umbria and Latium*
- Southern Italy: Abruzzo, Molise, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata, Calabria, Sicily
- Western Italy: Sardinia

*Now Liguria and Latium are the tricky ones: Liguria genetically is transitional between Central Italians and North Italians (with the western half being closer to the North Italian cluster and the eastern half basically merging with Tuscans/Romagnols), however its culture, climate, architecture, lifestyle and overall "feel" resemble more that of Corsica and Tuscany in my opinion than anything north of the Po.
Likewise, Latium is genetically transitional between Central and Southern Italians; as for the culture though it's very much intertwined with Central Italy I reckon, except maybe the southernmost parts. So this is why I grouped these two regions with Central Italy.


Moving on. About the North Italians and the Celtic look nonsense, please define the Celtic look: is Celtic look that of the irish Conan O'Brien or perhaps that of the breton Benoît Hamon? People need to realize that Celtic is a language family, not an ethnicity. Just like the label Slavic, you can range from obvious balkanites like the Bulgarians/Macedonians to Russian speaking "pseudo-Balts" living in Latvia and Northwest Russia.
Either way, North Italians look phenotypically halfway between Central Italians and the Swiss while Southern Italians probably more like halfway between Central Italians and Cretans.

Angela
26-05-17, 20:52
And now you have the Lega Nord perspective on Italian genetics and culture. I told you we had some of these people.

My sincere advice: ignore.

In fact you should ignore the whole thread. It's typical anthrofora nonsense. Who gives a damn what foreigners and racists think?

harena
26-05-17, 22:46
And now you have the Lega Nord perspective on Italian genetics and culture. I told you we had some of these people.

My sincere advice: ignore.

In fact you should ignore the whole thread. It's typical anthrofora nonsense. Who gives a damn what foreigners and racists think?


What is exactly a Lega Nord perspective, and most importantly what makes it inherently wrong? I'd like my comment to be posted and disproved if some of the points I outlined are incorrect. I'm here to discuss and hear different points of view


EDIT: My original post (feel free to rip it apart, Angela)


"You should probably first define what is North Italy and what is South Italy. I feel that Italy, just like France, is a country too diverse for such a simplistic dichotomic partition.
Personally I perceive at least 4 major ethno-cultural macroregions among ethnic Italians (Aosta Valley and Südtirol are thus excused), which are based primarily on genetics and culture:

- Northern Italy: Piedmont, Lombardy, Veneto, Trentino, Friuli Venezia-Giulia
- Central Italy: Liguria*, Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany, Marche, Umbria and Latium*
- Southern Italy: Abruzzo, Molise, Campania, Apulia, Basilicata, Calabria, Sicily
- Western Italy: Sardinia

*Now Liguria and Latium are the tricky ones: Liguria genetically is transitional between Central Italians and North Italians (with the western half being closer to the North Italian cluster and the eastern half basically merging with Tuscans/Romagnols), however its culture, climate, architecture, lifestyle and overall "vibe" resemble more that of Corsica and Tuscany in my opinion than anything north of the Po.
Likewise, Latium is genetically transitional between Central and Southern Italians; as for the culture though it's very much intertwined with Central Italy I reckon, except maybe the southernmost parts. So this is why I grouped these two regions with Central Italy.

Moving on. About the North Italians and the Celtic look nonsense, please define the Celtic look: is Celtic look that of the irish Conan O'Brien or perhaps that of the breton Benoît Hamon? People need to realize that Celtic is a language family, not an ethnicity. Just like the label Slavic, you can range from obvious balkanites like the Bulgarians/Macedonians to Russian speaking "pseudo-Balts" living in Latvia and Northwest Russia.
Either way, North Italians look phenotypically halfway between Central Italians and the Swiss while Southern Italians probably more like halfway between Central Italians and Cretans."

Źıun
31-05-17, 21:44
I do not agree with any of the statements. Southern Italians don't look like Middle Easterners.

nalfy87
01-06-17, 17:35
My partner took her DNA test and she is around 20-30% Southern European according to two different tests (FTDNA/Myheritage). She wasn't expecting those results as she always thought she was just English, bit a bit of Dutch thrown in as her grandad is essentially half Dutch (from Gouda). I don't know whether she does look the slightlest Italian, or even Spanish.

This is her Myheritage results:

http://i.imgur.com/FSlS6CW.jpg

And this is her:

http://i.imgur.com/9psNBLz.jpg


I myself am Colombian obviously mixed with Amerindian. I have been to both Venice/Rimini and can say even though I felt a tad bit darker than the rest of the Italians, I did not feel too out of place. Interestingly most of my European is Iberian Peninsula mixed with some Northern European. Most of my Colombian family (90%) have light blue eyes. I myself have more hazel like eyes with a green hue. I rarely saw many people with blue eyes or lighter shades in Rimini. Lovely place though!

This is me below (several years ago).

http://i.imgur.com/S2j4gNj.jpg

davef
01-06-17, 17:57
Interesting. Her Southern European is greek/italian and Iberian, going by these results.

binx
10-08-17, 03:03
I myself am Colombian obviously mixed with Amerindian. I have been to both Venice/Rimini and can say even though I felt a tad bit darker than the rest of the Italians, I did not feel too out of place. Interestingly most of my European is Iberian Peninsula mixed with some Northern European. Most of my Colombian family (90%) have light blue eyes. I myself have more hazel like eyes with a green hue. I rarely saw many people with blue eyes or lighter shades in Rimini. Lovely place though!

This is me below (several years ago).

http://i.imgur.com/S2j4gNj.jpg


You look exactly what you're. A south American.

Salento
23-12-17, 16:47
If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all! lol