2,500 year old tattoos of a Siberian princess

DejaVu

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...os-Siberian-princess--little-changed-art.html

The intricate patterns of 2,500-year-old tattoos - some from the body of a Siberian 'princess' preserved in the permafrost - have been revealed in Russia.

The remarkable body art includes mythological creatures and experts say the elaborate drawings were a sign of age and status for the ancient nomadic Pazyryk people, described in the 5th century BC by the Greek historian Herodotus.

But scientist Natalia Polosmak - who discovered the remains of ice-clad 'Princess Ukok' high in the Altai Mountains - is also struck about how little has changed in more than two millennia.
 
One would think the tattoos might have faded a little yet they seem very vivid. Very interesting, good post.
 
Great site! I remember seeing a movie with Viggo Mortensen playing a Russian gangster in Australia with Cronenberg as Director. I forget the name. His body was tattooed all over. Those tattoos told of his rank within what organization he belonged to and a history of his deeds to earn his rank. The tattoos showed other gangsters whether he was to be respected, feared or just ignored. THE Japanese gangsters also are the same. Now I can see where the tattoo language originated from.
 
Brilliant findings, but somehow disappointing not to have dna table published as yet.
 
I did not notice this thread until now, but it is remarkable indeed !

The Pazyryk culture was an Iron Age kurgan culture from the Altai mountains and southern Siberia, but closely related to the Scythians of Ukraine and southern Russia. It's amazing to see how similar the tattoos are to Celtic art, confirming the Indo-European interconnection between ancient R1a and R1b populations.
 
There's quite a bit going on in this artwork...

1. When looking at the "cleaned up" version we can see other animals in addition to the regal-looking deer. There is a duck or a goose on it's back toward the bottom of the picture and in the overall appearance of the collage you can see what looks like a human heart. There may even be some brains towards the top of the piece.

2. When looking at the preserved arm itself, I see a fully reclined human-looking body (although maybe not fully human?) on it's back.

3. Maciamo, I don't think you can call this art work Celtic and then link it with Indo-European culture-- not yet anyway. The Vikings were famed for similiar artwork covering their arms (and probably most of their bodies) and they were made up of a collection of y-haplogroups. Let's not assign y-membership were it's not yet warranted. Hopefully she will be able to tell us her mtdna lineage though... the frozen conditions will probably help.

**EDIT**
When you turn the image upside down, you can see another deer inlayed in the art. Pretty clever artist!
 
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There's quite a bit going on in this artwork...

1. When looking at the "cleaned up" version we can see other animals in addition to the regal-looking deer. There is a duck or a goose on it's back toward the bottom of the picture and in the overall appearance of the collage you can see what looks like a human heart. There may even be some brains towards the top of the piece.

2. When looking at the preserved arm itself, I see a fully reclined human-looking body (although maybe not fully human?) on it's back.

3. Maciamo, I don't think you can call this art work Celtic and then link it with Indo-European culture-- not yet anyway. The Vikings were famed for similiar artwork covering their arms (and probably most of their bodies) and they were made up of a collection of y-haplogroups. Let's not assign y-membership were it's not yet warranted. Hopefully she will be able to tell us her mtdna lineage though... the frozen conditions will probably help.

**EDIT**
When you turn the image upside down, you can see another deer inlayed in the art. Pretty clever artist!

Not only Vikings, these art of tattoos are found everywhere, everywhere where at least there is some trace of Indo-Europeans.
 
Doesn't she look Russian? Though if an artist who recreated her face was Russian the sculpture might be biased.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...os-Siberian-princess--little-changed-art.html
article-0-148AD2BE000005DC-741_964x723.jpg
 
Nope! even by Russian Artist, she is not quite representation of typical Russian face. Way too edgy, nose is Caucasian.
 
Maciamo is correct about the Pazyryk culture and the Indo-European Scythians;
Also this type of Ornamentation can be seen amongst many other Indo-European people (Keltic, Germanic, Thracian etc.) in Metallurgy or other art forms.
 
Maybe, but it's too early to assign y-haplogroup membership here. For example, G2a has popped up in ancient samples where noone expected it to. Repeatedly.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if a male found near her tested for I2, I1, N, G2a, Q, (or one of the R lines).

Speculation is fun... but it isn't science.
 
That is correct,
and i wasnt speculating about Y-DNA Hg's, i was just agreeing with Maciamo- pointing out the Archaeological and Ethnical backround (Pazyryk culture/Indo-European Scythians) of the mummies.

As for your mention of G2a,
Ötzi was G2a4 [now: G2a2b (L91)] and also he had tattoos on his spine and ankles; very primitive: lines, cross, dots;
http://www.freetattoodesigns.org/history-of-tattoos.html

03-otzi.jpg


so the art of Tattooing is as old as the Neolithic, and prob. spans all Y-DNA Hg's;
but the motives of the Indo-European Scythian (Pazyryk culture) peoples are motives and ornamentations found throughout the artistic realm of all other Indo-Europeans (pos. archaic Spiritual/Mystical meaning)
 
Agreed. I think the artwork in this tattoo carries multiple layers of meaning. Does anyone else see the reclining humanoid toward the top of the design?
 
Edit
I mean the Princess from Siberia's artwork, not Otzi's. :]
 
Maciamo is correct about the Pazyryk culture and the Indo-European Scythians;
Also this type of Ornamentation can be seen amongst many other Indo-European people (Keltic, Germanic, Thracian etc.) in Metallurgy or other art forms.

I know. I was just remarking the similarity with Celtic art. Germanic art also shares similarities but the curvatures and very round patterns reminded me more of Celtic at first sight. In any case this type of art of typically Indo-European.
 
Maybe, but it's too early to assign y-haplogroup membership here. For example, G2a has popped up in ancient samples where noone expected it to. Repeatedly.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if a male found near her tested for I2, I1, N, G2a, Q, (or one of the R lines).

Speculation is fun... but it isn't science.

I would be extremely surprised to find I1 in Siberia. We have plenty of Scythian Y-DNA from various sites in Russia (incl. Siberia) and Kazakhstan, and all of them so far are R1a.

Actually Ricaut et al. (2004), Chikisheva et al. (2007), Keyser et al. (2009) and Gonzalez-Ruiz et al. (2012) all tested both Y-DNA and mtDNA from sites belonging to the Pazyryk culture in the Altaï Republic and Mongolia. The Y-DNA sample was R1a. The mtDNA was hybrid East Asian (A, C, D, F2a, G2) and European (H, HV, J, K, N1a , T1, and many U5a1).
 
nobody

As for your mention of G2a,
Ötzi was G2a4 [now: G2a2b (L91)] and also he had tattoos on his spine and ankles; very primitive: lines, cross, dots;

Those tattoos are linked with primitive accupuncture. They match accupuncture points for conditions that otzi suffered from.

http://www.archaeologiemuseum.it/en/node/262

Makiamo

first you shamelessly try to put the Celtic spin on a proof that "celtic" art is not celtic but Skitian and then you desperately try to link it to r1b.

It's amazing to see how similar the tattoos are to Celtic art, confirming the Indo-European interconnection between ancient R1a and R1b populations.

Then when you are proven wrong, you just lump it into Indo European basket where all the things that don't suit your sad old R1b celtic theory go. If something proves that what is considered celtic art is not actually celtic and that celts were not R1b it has to be Indo European so by extention celtic and r1b.

I know. I was just remarking the similarity with Celtic art. Germanic art also shares similarities but the curvatures and very round patterns reminded me more of Celtic at first sight. In any case this type of art of typically Indo-European.


What is amazing is the length to which you guys here go to preserve your R1b celtic fairy tale...


by the way have a look at traditional croatian tattoos from croatia and bosnia. They are surely not r1b but I2 + r1a...

spaceball.gif


follow links for more pictures

http://www.geni.com/projects/Tradicionalne-hrvatske-tetovaže-Traditional-Croatian-tattoos/8331
 
Here is another piece regarding the finding of Ukok. It has similar content to DejaVus O.P. However, if you read on down it tells how they found Ukok and gives details of her burial position and things found with her.

http://siberiantimes.com/culture/ot...n-princess-reveals-her-2500-year-old-tattoos/


In particular note the "Chinese silk", usually associated with Royal burials among the Pazyryk people. Also her head-piece which showed the "Tree of Life"




Regarding DNA the piece says only that DNA obtained from her remains are intriguing.


Reading on, it seems the silk used in the shirt may in fact have come from Assam in India, acc. to Dr. Polosmak.
Also found was a "cosmetic" bag containing eyeliner made from vivianite.
 
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It seems that a lot of people misunderstood what I wrote in post #5. I was trying to say that the tattoos were one more element (in addition to languages) linking R1b people (such as the Celts) and R1a people (such as the Scythians, Indo-Iranians, and Balto-Slavics). I never said that the people of the Pazyryk culture were R1b. I knew before seeing this thread that all Iron-Age Scythians tested so far were all R1a.

My point was that it is amazing to find such similarities between two Iron Age people (R1b Celts in Western Europe vs R1a Scythians in Siberia) separated by over 5000 km and who probably did not share a common Proto-Indo-European culture for over 2000 years, and still draw very similar art. If anything, it proves that prehistoric culture could survive with little change over several millennia.
 

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