Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

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Finalise said:
Just because there was a comment about the greek language borrowings, it doesnt make this thread nationalistic. I dont understand what youre trying to get at. When did I say there was a pure race in the balkans? I specifically said I will try to establish the continuity based on a historical/linguistic basis. I also never said there was a link between Illyrian and Macedonian, I said Im not sure of any link between them. The concept of besa was also found in celtic and germanic tribes - search john bassett trumper albanian language on youtube for this -. For the rest, I dont see what youre trying to get at dude.... If I offended you because I mentioned the word greek and the greek language, Im sorry then.
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well sometimes I got angry cause i am tired of balkanic modern nationalistic issues, sometimes are even in school books, that existed also in my Country and i don't blame you or someone else, I blaim every mind that tries to create complex theories about a 'super race' that has destiny to 'rule the world'
searching and bringing new data is good,
but it seems that in every balkanic country there is a group that produces hyper-theories,


Goga in post #17 put the problem in a more correct basis, meaning if Albanian is an exelixis, a descent of ancient Illyrian +lower Thracian only then we might speak of a clear Anatolian hypothesis,

and I do believe in anatolian origin of IE but it seems that what Eupedia describes is more secure and stable with today evidence.

ok I am sorry if i got mad, but for more than 1 year it seems I am explaining the same again and again,
 
Finalise said:
Just because there was a comment about the greek language borrowings, it doesnt make this thread nationalistic. I dont understand what youre trying to get at. When did I say there was a pure race in the balkans? I specifically said I will try to establish the continuity based on a historical/linguistic basis. I also never said there was a link between Illyrian and Macedonian, I said Im not sure of any link between them. The concept of besa was also found in celtic and germanic tribes - search john bassett trumper albanian language on youtube for this -. For the rest, I dont see what youre trying to get at dude.... If I offended you because I mentioned the word greek and the greek language, Im sorry then.
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You made a claim which can not be substantiated with historical evidence. Namely that only the ruling classes of Epirus and Macedonia were Greek. If you can show us some documents with a distinct Epirean or Macedonian language. Something like that could be very useful to us. Other than that, it's not science and does have a modern nationalistic undertone.

Genetically and anthropologically, I doubt that you can find evidence that in ancient times there were many differences between Epireans, Macedonians (according to you non-Greeks) and Thessalians (I assume you consider them to be Greeks). Since they were all paleo-balkanic populations and were genetically related anyway. So we can only label them by their culture, language, their belief system and what have you.

Having said that, it doesn't make a difference from a Greek point of view, if some tribes were NOT Greeks at some point in time and did become Greeks at a later stage. Because we know that exactly that has happened at some earlier point in time anyway. Think about the Minoans and the Pelasgians to cite but a few examples.

So all I am interested in is, based on the above criteria, how can you tell the people of Macedonia and Epirus were not Greek and Thessalians were?
 
Dianatomia said:
So all I am interested in is, based on the above criteria, how can you tell the people of Macedonia and Epirus were not Greek and Thessalians were?
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by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle considered Apollonia an important[5] example of an oligarchic system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.
 
Finalise said:
by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle considered Apollonia an important[5] example of an oligarchic system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.
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Epirus Nova is the land that Greek colonise,

Greeks had 3 systems of colonisation,

a total new city-state

a depend on metropolis city-town

an emporium trading post

in the Illiricum wars remember Greeks supported an unite Illyrians and even devastate up to Dardania in order to resist and avoid Romans,

Oligarchic system had many cities like Sparta,
there 2 kinds of oligarchy,
The Feudal one
the democratic rule of one class (Sparta system)

there is abig difference among oligarchy and tyrrany

do you have the source that Aristotle describes?
 
Yetos said:
do you have the source that Aristotle describes?
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yea click on the 5... its straight from wikipedia. When i mentioned epirus (nova) and macedonia (which was a roman province later on, that incorporated albania) my point was that there was illyrians living in most of albania even since antiquity, since some people claim that only the very north of albania was illyrian the rest was greek.
 
Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.
 
Finalise said:
by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle considered Apollonia an important[5] example of an oligarchic system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.
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Well, Epirus Nova was not Greek territory, although they certainly did influence the region to an extent. I think Epirus Nova can be compared to Paeonia. During the Roman era many Paeonian cities were hellenized and had Greek elites, but the population was still mostly Thracian.

On another note, in another thread I pointed out that Albanians from Epirus Nova are genetically closer to Greeks than to Kosovars. One should say that the Albanians ought to be closer to each other. But that is not the case. So that is interesting.
 
Finalise said:
by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle considered Apollonia an important[5] example of an oligarchic system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.
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thanks

I agree with yetos of the albanians entering modern albania via moesia, this below needs to be investigated as too my theory of albanians from NE thracian lands

page 66
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=illyrian&f=false
 
Finalise said:
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split

This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.

Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.

Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.


Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.

#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.

#3 - Centum/Satem Theory

This is quite an interesting one. Albanian is established as Satem, while Illyrian might have been Centum, but there is not enough evidence. First of all, let me start by saying that NO LANGUAGE IS 100% Centum and Satem. All IE languages have features from both, although some an amount of overwhelming more examples than others. For example while one language can have 85% words with Centum features it might also have another 15% with Satem.

Second of all, Tocharian pretty much shattered this theory. Although there is undeniably a shift that has undergone from PIE, no one knows how this shift took place. The best guess would be areal contact, rather than a Proto-Satem Proto-Centum theory, although even that is just a guess. So we can't use this theory, until we know more about this shift to deny that one language is Centum and it cannot be derived from Satem. In French, the word cent is pronounce so, a satem feature derived from a centum language. There's another linguist (too lazy to look him up, its on wiktionary I think) that supports the argument that one cannot use this pseudo-theory to determine if a satem/centum can develop into a centum/satem, since all languages share features from both.

Illyrian has examples of Satem features as well. For example the name Gentius is found in 2 forms, Gentius and Zanatis which both derived from PIE gen.


My fingers are tired of typing, so Ill stop now. Theres also a ton of other arguments, I just chose to adress the main ones. I might add new stuff later. Feel free to disagree/agree with me, BUT PLEASE LEAVE YOUR BIAS OUT THE DOOR. If you have one that is.
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just to say that for me concerning the most of phonetic phenomenons, the direction satem to centum is very uneasy to believe compared to the reverse: centum to satem
 
Yetos said:
Pellatab.jpg



WATCH CAREFULLY

THE ABOVE IS NOT A RULLING CLASS DOCUMENT NEITHER A THEOCRATIC AS ZEUS10 SAY LANGUAGE

IS A COMMON MAKEDONIAN DIALECT LANGUAGE SPOKEN MUCH BEFORE ALEXANDER AND PHILLIP

IT A SIMPLE CURSE WHICH MADE BY AN ANONYMOUS WOMEN TO BIND HER LOVER

RULLING CLASS DON"T DO THIS

ENOUGH WITH STUPIDITY OF SLAVIC AND PARASLAVIC LANGUAGES

WATCH CAREFULLY

ALEXANDER ΑΛΕΞ+ΑΝΔΡΟΣ = PROTECT MEN = HE WHO PROTECTS THE MEN

LEK AND LEKKA watch end -ek
LIKE POLISH BOLEK LOLEK -EK IS FAMOUS SLAVIC ENDING
SEARCH THE NAME OF RUSSIAN PATRIARCHS IS ALEK+S LIKE ALBANIAN LEKA it miss the Andros
so the nationalistic stupidity must end sometime!

LEK as name is showing us the East part of Albanian language the next to scythian and Sarmatian, the once you afraid to claim due to recent events with Slavs
Lek is a Slavic name not a Greek neither Illyrian end in -ek like many Poland Chech Slovak names

EXCEPT IF SLAVIC LANGUAGE EXISTED BEFORE THE 5TH CENTURY AD in Balkans

Nationalist stupidity sometimes has its limit.

ELEMENTS OF ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE WE FIND AT KALLASHA PEOPLE
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY SPEAK ILLYRIAN OR ALBANIAN?
ALL SCIENTISTS SPEAK ABOUT a ARYAN LANGUAGE WITH SOUNDS LIKE GREEK ESPECIALLY THE S Δ !!!!
IF ancient Makedonians were Albano-Illyrians then KALLASHA would name Alexander as Lek which is easy, and not as they call him,

except the katadesmos, except all ancient writers, and especially Hesychius of Alexandreia, Kallasha is vivid document of ancient Makedonian. search the elements and aspirations and grammatical and syntax, you will find mainly older Aryan not Indian and second Greek, how come if Makedonians were rulling class the soldiers which is a low class pass Greek sounds and elements in Kallasha and not Illyrian and why Kallasha name Alexander since he was Lek?

SEARCH KALASHA CULTURE, THEY GET MARRIED THE SAME TIME GREEKS DID,
THEY USE THE SAME ANCIENT CALLENDAR AS MAKEDONIANS AND STILL KEEP SOME THAT ARE LOST IN GREEK, SAME TIME THEY HAVE ARYAN CUSTOMS, analyze them and you will realise an ancient Indo-ARYAN with Lower Thracian and Greek components

I am tired of wrotting again and again the same

Try to avoid Nationalistic in this forum
keep it for other blogs forums
plz stop filling with nationalistic crup areas which try to avoid it


ENOUGH WITH THIS

MODERN ALBANIAN SHOW A GENETICAL CONTINUITY WITH ANCIENT ILLYRIAN
BUT ALSO SHOW A LINGUISTIC BREAK FROM ANCIENT ILLYRIAN


ACCCEPT IT

THERE IS NO PURE RACE, IN BALKANS,


AND TO FINALIZE

SEARCH THE WORD BESA exists only in Albanian language,
the only simmilar word that we find from ancient times is Βησιοι
Click to expand...


WATCH CAREFULLY

MAKE DON IA
Make (Majke, Majka) = Mother
Don (Donna) = Godess (Woman, Lady)
ia (ija) = Land


Google Translate English to Hindi
World of mother = Makedunya = Makedonia

Original meaning of the word Makedonia = Mother of the World


New Indo-European Language Discovered
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27661-New-Indo-European-Language-Discovered
More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
Prof Casule said that the language is most probably ancient Phrygian.

Kalash people dont speak greek neither do the rest who claim Macedonian heritage from Alexander the greats army.
Ancestors of Alexander the Great of Makedon did not speak Greek but Burushaski "Phrygian"

End of discussion
 
we need to consider that the northern Illyrian tibes are older than the southern ones, as an example the Liburnians are far older than th Dalmatians and the liburnians colonised apulia in 1200BCE ( the messapic linguistic area) and corfu............they gave away corfu to the corinthians in 750BCE.

The push by the celts from the north forced a southern push of illyrians into the then known lands held by thracian and hellenic people.
Some illyrian northern tribes merged with the celts like the noricum area ( western austria, northern croatia and slovenia )

North Picene is another area in romagna Italy as settled by the Liburnians
 
None of you are discussing the thread topic "Illyrian-Albanian continuity".
Time to change the name of this thread to something more relevant to the discussions here.
 
DejaVu said:
Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.
Click to expand...

Indeed, that is a good question,
which is the esonyme and which is the exonyme
 
DejaVu said:
WATCH CAREFULLY

MAKE DON IA
Make (Majke, Majka) = Mother
Don (Donna) = Godess (Woman, Lady)
ia (ija) = Land


Google Translate English to Hindi
World of mother = Makedunya = Makedonia

Original meaning of the word Makedonia = Mother of the World


New Indo-European Language Discovered
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27661-New-Indo-European-Language-Discovered
More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
Prof Casule said that the language is most probably ancient Phrygian.

Kalash people dont speak greek neither do the rest who claim Macedonian heritage from Alexander the greats army.
Ancestors of Alexander the Great of Makedon did not speak Greek but Burushaski "Phrygian"

End of discussion
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so we need Hindi to explain a European toponym?

did I said kallasha speak Greek?
why did you put that words in my mouth

so Kallasha godess Zestia
and god Diu Zeo is after Hindi?

and a good question for you

in Kallasha we find a tribe as Sarakats
In Makedonia, Slavic Makedonia, Thrace (south Bulgaria) Thessaly and Central Greece we also find a tribe as Sarakatsani
is it a coinsidence?

End of discusion,
 
DejaVu said:
Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.
Click to expand...
First of all, calm down and breathe. Second of all, Shqiptar is only a modern term that wasnt mentioned before 13-14th century. Second of all, Albania was called Arberi in medieval times. Albanian enclaves in Italy still call themselves Arberesh.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia " The medieval ethnonyms Arbanitai and Arbanios and the corresponding modern ethnonyms Arvanite, Arber, and Arbëreshë are considered by many linguists to have the same etymology as Albania, being derived from the stem Alb- by way of a rhotacism, Alb- → Arb-. Compare the rhotacism of alb- into arv- in the Neapolitan dialect of Italy. ". Not all, but the majority already agree on this.
 
Yetos said:
so we need Hindi to explain a European toponym?

did I said kallasha speak Greek?
why did you put that words in my mouth

so Kallasha godess Zestia
and god Diu Zeo is after Hindi?

and a good question for you

in Kallasha we find a tribe as Sarakats
In Makedonia, Slavic Makedonia, Thrace (south Bulgaria) Thessaly and Central Greece we also find a tribe as Sarakatsani
is it a coinsidence?

End of discusion,
Click to expand...

Enough with the Greek discussion please, open a new thread, this one is already getting flooded.
 
MOESAN said:
just to say that for me concerning the most of phonetic phenomenons, the direction satem to centum is very uneasy to believe compared to the reverse: centum to satem
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I agree with you. I just threw it out randomly. Centum to Satem seems like a way more plausible theory. That is why Illyrian or an Illyrian dialect (seemingly centum although not proven) could give rise to another seemingly satem language like Albanian. Albanian is a bit different than other satem languages, I dont have time to explain this but feel free to look it up.
 
Again, guys, I'm not saying Illyrians and their language are the direct ancestors of the Albanians and their language, but what I'm trying to say is this very likely. Personally, I would put the odds at 80% Illyrian, 15% Thracian, 4.99% Dacian, 0.01% another paleo-balkanic language. What this means in terms of linguistics is enormous. A seemingly probable "centum" language giving birth to what seems to be a satem language. If some Illyrian texts/phrases are found (written in either Greek or Latin alphabet), it would have a huge effect on the centum/satem paradigm, more likely so than what Tocharian did for this theory.
 
Finalise said:
Again, guys, I'm not saying Illyrians and their language are the direct ancestors of the Albanians and their language, but what I'm trying to say is this very likely. Personally, I would put the odds at 80% Illyrian, 15% Thracian, 4.99% Dacian, 0.01% another paleo-balkanic language. What this means in terms of linguistics is enormous. A seemingly probable "centum" language giving birth to what seems to be a satem language. If some Illyrian texts/phrases are found (written in either Greek or Latin alphabet), it would have a huge effect on the centum/satem paradigm, more likely so than what Tocharian did for this theory.
Click to expand...

and again I repat my shelf,
and i ask the question DejaVu ask?

are you try to convice us? or it is certified to you?

the percentances are based to what? with what data you make that 80% and rest numbers?
I mean what is the 80 data out of 100 that make that %?

for one more time (I don't know thr score) i repeat,
the genetical data show a genetical connection among Illyrians and today Albanians to a quite enough degree,
the linguistic Data show a break, an import of a language that does not fit in area which assimilated all older languages,

A simmilar phenomenon exist in England, with Celtic and Germanic languages, only there we know the population devastations.

and in Italian Alps with Germanic and Italian
 
Yetos said:
and again I repat my shelf,
and i ask the question DejaVu ask?

are you try to convice us? or it is certified to you?

the percentances are based to what? with what data you make that 80% and rest numbers?
I mean what is the 80 data out of 100 that make that %?

for one more time (I don't know thr score) i repeat,
the genetical data show a genetical connection among Illyrians and today Albanians to a quite enough degree,
the linguistic Data show a break, an import of a language that does not fit in area which assimilated all older languages,

A simmilar phenomenon exist in England, with Celtic and Germanic languages, only there we know the population devastations.

and in Italian Alps with Germanic and Italian
Click to expand...

genetic data??? we barely have any linguistic data, youre already going on about genetics. If you want to know what I'm trying to establish with this thread, I reccomend you go and read all of it including the beginning, rather than just reading the title and typing your opinion which somehow mostly involves something about greece.
 
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