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Finalise
24-08-12, 00:13
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split

This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.

Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.

Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.


Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.

#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.

#3 - Centum/Satem Theory

This is quite an interesting one. Albanian is established as Satem, while Illyrian might have been Centum, but there is not enough evidence. First of all, let me start by saying that NO LANGUAGE IS 100% Centum and Satem. All IE languages have features from both, although some an amount of overwhelming more examples than others. For example while one language can have 85% words with Centum features it might also have another 15% with Satem.

Second of all, Tocharian pretty much shattered this theory. Although there is undeniably a shift that has undergone from PIE, no one knows how this shift took place. The best guess would be areal contact, rather than a Proto-Satem Proto-Centum theory, although even that is just a guess. So we can't use this theory, until we know more about this shift to deny that one language is Centum and it cannot be derived from Satem. In French, the word cent is pronounce so, a satem feature derived from a centum language. There's another linguist (too lazy to look him up, its on wiktionary I think) that supports the argument that one cannot use this pseudo-theory to determine if a satem/centum can develop into a centum/satem, since all languages share features from both.

Illyrian has examples of Satem features as well. For example the name Gentius is found in 2 forms, Gentius and Zanatis which both derived from PIE gen.


My fingers are tired of typing, so Ill stop now. Theres also a ton of other arguments, I just chose to adress the main ones. I might add new stuff later. Feel free to disagree/agree with me, BUT PLEASE LEAVE YOUR BIAS OUT THE DOOR. If you have one that is.

zanipolo
24-08-12, 11:48
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

agree, nationalism has no place in this forum


Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split

This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.

proto-albanian and illyrian could not be spoken at same time because the albanians where unknown to the Roman historians until 150CE.



Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.

The Macedonian empire of Philip V fell to the Romans in 136BCE and this kingdom ruled modern day albanian lands from the time of Philip II ( about 350BCE ).


Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

as above, the Greeks got their Pseudo-freedom after the macedonian empire fell


Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.


The Byzantines where not around if you believe the Roman historians first recording of albanians from 150CE
So they did not record it because the albanians where already there



Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.

#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.

#3 - Centum/Satem Theory

This is quite an interesting one. Albanian is established as Satem, while Illyrian might have been Centum, but there is not enough evidence. First of all, let me start by saying that NO LANGUAGE IS 100% Centum and Satem. All IE languages have features from both, although some an amount of overwhelming more examples than others. For example while one language can have 85% words with Centum features it might also have another 15% with Satem.

Second of all, Tocharian pretty much shattered this theory. Although there is undeniably a shift that has undergone from PIE, no one knows how this shift took place. The best guess would be areal contact, rather than a Proto-Satem Proto-Centum theory, although even that is just a guess. So we can't use this theory, until we know more about this shift to deny that one language is Centum and it cannot be derived from Satem. In French, the word cent is pronounce so, a satem feature derived from a centum language. There's another linguist (too lazy to look him up, its on wiktionary I think) that supports the argument that one cannot use this pseudo-theory to determine if a satem/centum can develop into a centum/satem, since all languages share features from both.

Illyrian has examples of Satem features as well. For example the name Gentius is found in 2 forms, Gentius and Zanatis which both derived from PIE gen.



Never heard of this bulgarian, seek other writers like Alfoldy and wilkins

Facts are -
1. albanians unknown to Romans until 150CE even though Romans ruled the land in question.
2 -the 6 or more Roman emperors who where illyrian where dalmatian or pannonians and there is no mention of albanians as being associated with these Emperors.
3 - The period from around 350BCE to 330BCE saw the annexation of Epirus by the macedonian who ruled modern day albanian lands until 136BCE . The 14 epirote tribes in the area has no mention of albanians. The macedonian army which invaded Persia after this annexation had macedonian, dardanian, epiote , greek and thracian troops an no mention of illyrian or Albanian troops in its contingent.
4 - the 2 illyrian.v. macedonian wars settled the border with a 10 year peace on the Drin river..........this was the only way the macedonians could invade persia, by securing the rear
5 - since the Romans where renowned in moving large tribal groups of 5000 ( a form of culling) from one area to another in the kingdom , I suspect the albanians where split from another associated tribe somewhere in the northeast balkans. example of this roman system are 5000 people from the thracian bessi tribe to veneto lands near Loria, the place is still called bessica, 4000 heruli to Concordia in friuli ( the remained signed into the roman army and staitioned in batavia), 4000 alenaani to verona and lots more

Malsori
24-08-12, 18:02
It is not the Albanians those who are nationalistic in this isse(except for some people with delusional theories around) it is their South Slavic neighbors who always bring this Albanian-Illyrian disconnection. They are merely trying to disown any Albanian-Illyrian proofs and try to make themself Illyrian which is rather pathetic. The 2012 IBD study has shown that Slavic migrations have indeed made an impact into the Balkans not just among South Slavs but even among the Albanians and Greeks to a lesser degree.

@zanipolo Albanoi were mentioned as Illyrian tribe. And i am not eager to say that most of modern day Albanians are descended from this Albanoi tribe. Probably this tribe rose in prominance and hence the reason to label all of the non-Latinized Illyrian tribes Arbanese/Arberesh/Albanoi/Albanians.

Endri
24-08-12, 19:46
agree, nationalism has no place in this forum


proto-albanian and illyrian could not be spoken at same time because the albanians where unknown to the Roman historians until 150CE.




The Macedonian empire of Philip V fell to the Romans in 136BCE and this kingdom ruled modern day albanian lands from the time of Philip II ( about 350BCE ).



as above, the Greeks got their Pseudo-freedom after the macedonian empire fell



The Byzantines where not around if you believe the Roman historians first recording of albanians from 150CE
So they did not record it because the albanians where already there




Never heard of this bulgarian, seek other writers like Alfoldy and wilkins

Facts are -
1. albanians unknown to Romans until 150CE even though Romans ruled the land in question.
2 -the 6 or more Roman emperors who where illyrian where dalmatian or pannonians and there is no mention of albanians as being associated with these Emperors.
3 - The period from around 350BCE to 330BCE saw the annexation of Epirus by the macedonian who ruled modern day albanian lands until 136BCE . The 14 epirote tribes in the area has no mention of albanians. The macedonian army which invaded Persia after this annexation had macedonian, dardanian, epiote , greek and thracian troops an no mention of illyrian or Albanian troops in its contingent.
4 - the 2 illyrian.v. macedonian wars settled the border with a 10 year peace on the Drin river..........this was the only way the macedonians could invade persia, by securing the rear
5 - since the Romans where renowned in moving large tribal groups of 5000 ( a form of culling) from one area to another in the kingdom , I suspect the albanians where split from another associated tribe somewhere in the northeast balkans. example of this roman system are 5000 people from the thracian bessi tribe to veneto lands near Loria, the place is still called bessica, 4000 heruli to Concordia in friuli ( the remained signed into the roman army and staitioned in batavia), 4000 alenaani to verona and lots more

Zanipolo IDK if you're playing dumb or what. Of course there is no reference to Albanians with the name "Albanians". If there were we wouldn't be discussing this right now. The name Albania comes from the Latin name of the tribe of Albanoi, in Albanian Arbër or Arbën (Gheg) and is noted from the 10-11 century.

In north-east balkans lived the Dacians and Albanian is not Dacian. The Dacian words in Albanian are loans.

I've asked this Question countless times but got no answer. In the Balkans BC times there were, as far as I know 3 main language groups, Illyro, Thraco-Dacian and Greek. Albanian isn't Greek and that's for sure, It isn't Dacian and it isn't Thracian (if Dacian and Thracian are similar group) and according to you it isn't Illyrian either. So what it is? It is for sure is a Paleo-Balkanik language.

Finalise
24-08-12, 19:51
proto-albanian and illyrian could not be spoken at same time because the albanians where unknown to the Roman historians until 150CE.


did you read what I said....? The dialectal split between Tosk and Gheg, based on INFERENCE, took place 1500 years ago since it clearly PREDATES slavic migration in the balkans, because they treat borrowed words differently. Meaning the proto-Albanian language, before the Tosk-Gheg split, was spoken in the same area at the same time as Illyrian.




The Byzantines where not around if you believe the Roman historians first recording of albanians from 150CE
So they did not record it because the albanians where already there

Im talking about migrations during the slavic period. That is when the Byzantine empire existed. When you say already there you're implying the albanians were already in albania in 150..at the same time as Illyrians. I think theres some misunderstanding here.

----> No not until 150, but until 1000. Those Albanoi/Arbanon tribes have no documented correlation to modern day Albanians although their names may have derived from there. I think you're under the impression that Albanians and Illyrians were different tribes that lived in the same place 2000 ago, while this is proven not to be the case, as Illyrians were the only tribes there. The real question is whether any Thracian or Dacian tribes migrated over to the modern territory, during the migration period, and this imo is unlikely the case.

Finalise
24-08-12, 19:58
I've asked this Question countless times but got no answer. In the Balkans BC times there were, as far as I know 3 main language groups, Illyro, Thraco-Dacian and Greek. Albanian isn't Greek and that's for sure, It isn't Dacian and it isn't Thracian (if Dacian and Thracian are similar group) and according to you it isn't Illyrian either. So what it is? It is for sure is a Paleo-Balkanik language.

We're not sure if Thracian and Dacian were the same language. But there is also the possibility of another obscure language surviving in the Balkans, that could have become the ancestor of Albanian. But that is highly unlikely, since there is no mention of any such language.

Illyrian toponyms can only be explained in the Albanian language, which is also another main reason. Although it has been denied by some that Illyria is not related to i lirë "free", it also quite possible that the ilire were an Illyrian tribe which Greeks came to contact with early on, and later called all related tribes by that name. It is possible that's how the name found its way in Greek mythology, and we have to remember that Greek mythology was only semi-fictional i.e. zeus living on mountain olympia, (an actual mountain), celts, gauls, illyrus, being brothers, hence related.

Yetos
24-08-12, 21:44
I am tired of nationalistic Stupidity that runs through the Brain of Some,

Greek Olympus is mountain and not Olympia
Olympus exist in Cyprus minor Asia (turkey)


I lir means free, so the land is iliria after free?
and the peopel are free? from whom? from them shelves?

Nationalistic minds, see what ever they like,

lets see some Pelasgian words

El = (high, god, top )

when people die they go to Ηλλυσια (Ιllysia)
well known holly place Ellyse
or prophet Ellysieh god Ellah-Allah
so Illyria with 2 ll is after i lir with one l and i not y ok.

another stupidity,

at the whole of the word E Hg is proto IE at Balkans, and is a founder effect in Balkans,

so prorto IE were E hg !!!! or ???? or :))))

and something else E in Balkans is not Albanian neither Greek neither Bosnian neither Serbian,
it is Akkado-Cypriotic Levantine, neither NW African like the one found in Iberia,
by Homer we know that Αιθιωψ (Ethiopean) population lived near or Allied Mycenaeans
we speak about chalkolithic and bronze era populations


lets see this,

IE word for door what ever, lets see the European words

Germanic-English Door
Latino- Port
Greek Θυρα Thyra (th as think)

a famous Albanian linguist like Zeus10 and A kolla notice the connection of Dera with Thyra and claim that Albanian is the language of Dorians !!!!

I wonder since they are good why they did not notice the aspirations,

a letter that exist in IE turns in Greek to Θ to Latino- as P and to Northern Germanic languages as D so to wich language Dera is more near?

what hundrends of cases like that say to us?

in begging I heard about get rid of Nationalistc
they only I see is that the nationalist blindness is rulling, and nationalists have bigger imagination that scientists,

I repat again the Pelasgian E and or some J or G is not IE neither Dorian, is Akkadocypriot chalkolithic and has no connection with Iberian E which is NW African mesolithic or elder,

search the word Europe, in Hesiodic Greek Erebos in ALbanian Ereb, in Semitic Erebu


I am tired of Albanian nationalist pseudo-science and Albano-centric theories,

I don't care about your wars with Serbs or Greeks,
I wonder how much you get paid to find crup theories and ideas

watch carefully

Egyptian Amon-Ra
Illyrian Illy-ra
Greek Ηλλυσια Ηλιος
Hebrew El-Jah Elliseh
Arabic Allah
English Holly

these are words that connect Akkadian with IE.
that is why I am fun of Ie being a minor Asian language

want more
Akkadian assu = get out- spring out and sunrise
Greek Eως-Ηως = sunrise and ekso-exo εξω = get out
Germanic aus = out East = sunrise
word Asia = sunrise

search more, I am sure you will find many
there are more than 10 000 words according Yehunda

key words
BuKur-est
Albocense
Germidava-Albanopolis
Alba Lullia+Anjou+Hunja-des

lets check some Illyrian
Mire =good
Greek = Kalos agathos makarios
English = nice good merry or happy?
mire and merry? same aspiration
search with which language shares this aspiration? with Celtic? with Germanic? or it is Albanian and Loan to Celts and Germans?
may be is Illyrian?
search instead of looking with the eye of Nationalistic judgement

if we had better knowledge of Illyrian Thracian and especially Getan we might be able to explain better IE and I am certain that both Celtic and Germanic passed from Balkans before spread to the forests of W Europe, although with the today data I accept the Eurasian steppes theory as the one with the less wrong or faults

and to close the post,

Gennetical Data show that today Albanian and Alb Kossovo population seems to be known at historical times in Balkans and has connection with what and where Illyria was,
what does not fit is modern Albanian language which although shares Celtic+Pelasgian=Illyrian Messapic Thracian elements shows North-East origin

zanipolo
24-08-12, 23:00
Zanipolo IDK if you're playing dumb or what. Of course there is no reference to Albanians with the name "Albanians". If there were we wouldn't be discussing this right now. The name Albania comes from the Latin name of the tribe of Albanoi, in Albanian Arbër or Arbën (Gheg) and is noted from the 10-11 century.

In north-east balkans lived the Dacians and Albanian is not Dacian. The Dacian words in Albanian are loans.

I've asked this Question countless times but got no answer. In the Balkans BC times there were, as far as I know 3 main language groups, Illyro, Thraco-Dacian and Greek. Albanian isn't Greek and that's for sure, It isn't Dacian and it isn't Thracian (if Dacian and Thracian are similar group) and according to you it isn't Illyrian either. So what it is? It is for sure is a Paleo-Balkanik language.

do not say this again because the dumbness is yours, how is the 10th-11th century have any association with the illyrian as they did not exist. The name illyria was only "re-invented" by Napoleon in the 18th century.

north-east balkans of the thracian lands are the Getae , the dacians are in the north-west.

this tribe is a chance for albanians to be illyrian
Labeates Labeates or Labeatae (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Λαβεάται) was an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scodra).[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-64)


or these


Taulantii http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_tribes.pn g/220px-Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_tribes.pn g (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_trib es.png) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf9/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_trib es.png)
Tribes in southern Illyris and Epirus.


Taulantii (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) Ταυλάντιοι) was the name of a cluster[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-68) of Illyrian tribes. According to Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology) Taulas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulas) (Tαύλας), one of the six sons of Illyrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius), was the eponymous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponymous) ancestor of the Taulanti.[70] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-69) They lived on the Adriatic coast of Illyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria) (modern Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania)), between to the vicinity[71] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-70) of the city of Epidamnus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidamnus) (modern Durrës (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs)). This tribe played an important role in Illyrian history of the 4th-3rd centuries BC,when King Glaukias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Glaukias) (335 BC- 302 BC) ruled over them. This tribe had become bilingual being under the effects of an early Hellenisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenisation).[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-The_Cambridge_Ancient_History_1994.2C_page_423-25) Taulantii could prepare mead, wine from honey like the Abri.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-71)




King Glaucias of Taulantii



Reign
c.335 BC – c.302 BC


Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language)
Γλαυκίας


Predecessor
Pleuratus I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleuratus_I)


Successor
Bardyllis II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardyllis_II)


Consort
Beroea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beroea_of_Epirus)


Father
Pleuratus I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleuratus_I)




married a royal molossian epirote princess Beroea

Now, you can continue your natiolist views and argue with the epirot Greeks on this forum ................I thought you where different....oh well you are the same as the rest.

BTW ...refrain from insulting people

zanipolo
24-08-12, 23:07
Im talking about migrations during the slavic period. That is when the Byzantine empire existed. When you say already there you're implying the albanians were already in albania in 150..at the same time as Illyrians. I think theres some misunderstanding here.

----> No not until 150, but until 1000. Those Albanoi/Arbanon tribes have no documented correlation to modern day Albanians although their names may have derived from there. I think you're under the impression that Albanians and Illyrians were different tribes that lived in the same place 2000 ago, while this is proven not to be the case, as Illyrians were the only tribes there. The real question is whether any Thracian or Dacian tribes migrated over to the modern territory, during the migration period, and this imo is unlikely the case.

who cares about slavic migrations into the balkans after 600CE, the discussion was about illyrians and albanians.......you do know that the celts migrated into illyrian lands before the slavs...don't you?............you do know the goths went into the balkans before the slavs ...don't you..........Do you realise the illyrians where already mixing with these celtic and gothic people..........why do you exclude this?

Endri
24-08-12, 23:21
do not say this again because the dumbness is yours, how is the 10th-11th century have any association with the illyrian as they did not exist. The name illyria was only "re-invented" by Napoleon in the 18th century.

north-east balkans of the thracian lands are the Getae , the dacians are in the north-west.

this tribe is a chance for albanians to be illyrian
Labeates

Labeates or Labeatae (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Λαβεάται) was an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scodra).[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-64)


or these


Taulantii

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_tribes.pn g/220px-Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_tribes.pn g (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_trib es.png) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf9/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northwester_Greeks_and_Southern_Illyrian_trib es.png)
Tribes in southern Illyris and Epirus.


Taulantii (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) Ταυλάντιοι) was the name of a cluster[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-68) of Illyrian tribes. According to Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology) Taulas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulas) (Tαύλας), one of the six sons of Illyrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius), was the eponymous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponymous) ancestor of the Taulanti.[70] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-69) They lived on the Adriatic coast of Illyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria) (modern Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania)), between to the vicinity[71] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-70) of the city of Epidamnus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidamnus) (modern Durrës (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs)). This tribe played an important role in Illyrian history of the 4th-3rd centuries BC,when King Glaukias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Glaukias) (335 BC- 302 BC) ruled over them. This tribe had become bilingual being under the effects of an early Hellenisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenisation).[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-The_Cambridge_Ancient_History_1994.2C_page_423-25) Taulantii could prepare mead, wine from honey like the Abri.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-71)




King Glaucias of Taulantii


Reign
c.335 BC – c.302 BC


Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language)
Γλαυκίας


Predecessor
Pleuratus I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleuratus_I)


Successor
Bardyllis II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardyllis_II)


Consort
Beroea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beroea_of_Epirus)


Father
Pleuratus I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleuratus_I)




married a royal molossian epirote princess Beroea

Now, you can continue your natiolist views and argue with the epirot Greeks on this forum ................I thought you where different....oh well you are the same as the rest.

BTW ...refrain from insulting people

Ok as starters from XI century is noted the local name Arbër not the Illyrians and this name comes almost 100% from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi whose dwelling by the historians are "the lands behind Dyrrachion" or more or less middle Albania. Next time read carefully.


another associated tribe somewhere in the northeast balkans.

Second, Dacians were in north-east, unless east is the new west and west the new east which would mean Romania is in north-west and Croatia in north-east

There is no last chance of being this or that. What is this an war ultimatum? You say they are Albanian is not Illyrian so at least say what it is.

And to end, do you know what could the name of this princes mean? Is it greek or smth?

zanipolo
24-08-12, 23:31
Ok as starters from XI century is noted the local name Arbër not the Illyrians and this name comes almost 100% from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi whose dwelling by the historians are "the lands behind Dyrrachion" or more or less middle Albania. Next time read carefully.


Second, Dacians were in north-east, unless east is the new west and west the new east which would mean Romania is in north-west and Croatia in north-east

There is no last chance of being this or that. What is this an war ultimatum? You say they are Albanian is not Illyrian so at least say what it is.

And to end, do you know what could the name of this princes mean? Is it greek or smth?

yes Albanoi , first mentioned by the roman historians in 150CE ..............whats your point?

The thracians where divided with 4 main groups, Getae in the NE next to the black sea, Odyssian in the SE , Dacian in the NW and Moesian in the SW..........this is how it is for the the period of the illyrians.

If you are talking older...much much older in time, then 80% of balkan lands was thracian and the rests hellenic

I agree with Alfoldy and wilkins, albanians adopted the term as illyrian after they migrated into the area. I already ststed where I think they are from .............I suspect they are one of the thracian tribes who where named something else prior to 150CE

Endri
24-08-12, 23:44
yes Albanoi , first mentioned by the roman historians in 150CE ..............whats your point?

The thracians where divided with 4 main groups, Getae in the NE next to the black sea, Odyssian in the SE , Dacian in the NW and Moesian in the SW..........this is how it is for the the period of the illyrians.

If you are talking older...much much older in time, then 80% of balkan lands was thracian and the rests hellenic

I agree with Alfoldy and wilkins, albanians adopted the term as illyrian after they migrated into the area. I already ststed where I think they are from .............I suspect they are one of the thracian tribes who where named something else prior to 150CE

First, no migration recorded on the area where speaking and most importantly Thracian words are LOANS in Albanian. How can Albanian be a Thracian language when Daco-Thracian words are loans. Enlighten...or were north-east thracian tribes speaking a language extremely different from Thracian and Dacian?

Also you didn't answer the Q about the princess name...

And just to add here:

It's a study of Universtity of California about "The Geography of Recent Genetic ancestry across Europe". An interesting study who among other notes:


There are many other possible signals in these data, here we focus on only afew.The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations as do individuals in other parts of Europe, implying that the Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek samples (and to a lesser degree, the Macedonians) share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly due to smaller efects of the Slavic expansion
in these populations. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives (Hamp, 1966) that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek. The \origin" of modern-day Albanians is contentious; it is argued for instance that they are descended in large part from the Illyrians (Wilkes, 1996) who populated the eastern side of the Adriatic sea and part of modern-day Salento (Italy) during Roman times. Our results are certainly consistent with this view, including the fact that Italians share more common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other 15 populations (although these ancestors are estimated to be from the last 1,500 years), so this may reflect
more recent migration.

Full article (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf)

And just remind that this is the University of California and not some Balkanik pseudo-genetist

Also note what the report states


The \origin" of modern-day Albanians is contentious; it is argued for instance that they are descended in large part from the Illyrians (Wilkes, 1996) who populated the eastern side of the Adriatic sea and part of modern-day Salento (Italy) during Roman times. Our results are certainly consistent with this view

That word is the most important part.

zanipolo
25-08-12, 00:04
First, no migration recorded on the area where speaking and most importantly Thracian words are LOANS in Albanian. How can Albanian be a Thracian language when Daco-Thracian words are loans. Enlighten...or were north-east thracian tribes speaking a language extremely different from Thracian and Dacian?

Also you didn't answer the Q about the princess name...

loan words , what the issue here with linguistics, you think all people named as thracian spoke thracian?. you still have nationalistcs problems to clear.
nationality only started in the 18th century, it was not around until then.

loan words......take italian, it is ALL loaned words from the different italian regional languages and some vaulgar latin ( as well as all other migrating of neighbourly people) . They are italian due to geography not culture. Same with Illyrians, thracians etc
Example , how many different cultures made up the gothic armies that invaded and destroyed the roman empire. do not think that these where all east-germanic and nordic people


what Q - the name is from the internet ....consort is wife, partner, mother to his children

zanipolo
25-08-12, 00:07
First, no migration recorded on the area where speaking and most importantly Thracian words are LOANS in Albanian. How can Albanian be a Thracian language when Daco-Thracian words are loans. Enlighten...or were north-east thracian tribes speaking a language extremely different from Thracian and Dacian?

Also you didn't answer the Q about the princess name...

And just to add here:

It's a study of Universtity of California about "The Geography of Recent Genetic ancestry across Europe". An interesting study who among other notes:



Full article (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf)

And just remind that this is the University of California and not some Balkanik pseudo-genetist

Also note what the report states



That word is the most important part.

1500 years only takes this to around 500CE ........you are missing 350years if you want to link the first notification of albanoi

Yetos
25-08-12, 00:57
Ok as starters from XI century is noted the local name Arbër not the Illyrians and this name comes almost 100% from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi whose dwelling by the historians are "the lands behind Dyrrachion" or more or less middle Albania. Next time read carefully.



Second, Dacians were in north-east, unless east is the new west and west the new east which would mean Romania is in north-west and Croatia in north-east

There is no last chance of being this or that. What is this an war ultimatum? You say they are Albanian is not Illyrian so at least say what it is.

And to end, do you know what could the name of this princes mean? Is it greek or smth?


you say say about Albanoi as Illyrians?
Name me one Historian that say that Albanoi were Illyrians,
Only Ptolemy places Albanopolis in area but from the others cities around we jnow He speak about Germidava or Thermidava,
No one else before 1340 speaks about Albania

The only known Albo people from ancient times are the Maximus of Moesia a Roman who speaks about a Getan-Dacian tribe named Albocense
Next is Ptolemy who places a city Albanopolis which from the other cities around we know that was the Arbanon that Anna komnena speaks, it was Germidava or Thermidava in North of Albania and has nothing to do with Illyrians and Epirotes
after this in 1050 Anna komnena speaks about Arbanon (Urbanon)
and then at 1340 we find again the Albanoi

THE ONLY ANCIENT TRIBE CONNECTED WITH ALBANO IS A MOESIAN TRIBE ALBOCENSE

in the area they lived today exist cities with names ALBA like ALBA LULLIA and others
ANJOU WHO CREATED THE STATE OF ALBA, AS ALSO HUNJADES, AS ALSO LEK DUKAGJIN WERE FROM THAT AREA,
WHEN THEY LOST THE WAR AGAINST OTTOMANS

Yetos
25-08-12, 01:28
Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg


WATCH CAREFULLY

THE ABOVE IS NOT A RULLING CLASS DOCUMENT NEITHER A THEOCRATIC AS ZEUS10 SAY LANGUAGE

IS A COMMON MAKEDONIAN DIALECT LANGUAGE SPOKEN MUCH BEFORE ALEXANDER AND PHILLIP

IT A SIMPLE CURSE WHICH MADE BY AN ANONYMOUS WOMEN TO BIND HER LOVER

RULLING CLASS DON"T DO THIS

ENOUGH WITH STUPIDITY OF SLAVIC AND PARASLAVIC LANGUAGES

WATCH CAREFULLY

ALEXANDER ΑΛΕΞ+ΑΝΔΡΟΣ = PROTECT MEN = HE WHO PROTECTS THE MEN

LEK AND LEKKA watch end -ek
LIKE POLISH BOLEK LOLEK -EK IS FAMOUS SLAVIC ENDING
SEARCH THE NAME OF RUSSIAN PATRIARCHS IS ALEK+S LIKE ALBANIAN LEKA it miss the Andros
so the nationalistic stupidity must end sometime!

LEK as name is showing us the East part of Albanian language the next to scythian and Sarmatian, the once you afraid to claim due to recent events with Slavs
Lek is a Slavic name not a Greek neither Illyrian end in -ek like many Poland Chech Slovak names

EXCEPT IF SLAVIC LANGUAGE EXISTED BEFORE THE 5TH CENTURY AD in Balkans

Nationalist stupidity sometimes has its limit.

ELEMENTS OF ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE WE FIND AT KALLASHA PEOPLE
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY SPEAK ILLYRIAN OR ALBANIAN?
ALL SCIENTISTS SPEAK ABOUT a ARYAN LANGUAGE WITH SOUNDS LIKE GREEK ESPECIALLY THE S Δ !!!!
IF ancient Makedonians were Albano-Illyrians then KALLASHA would name Alexander as Lek which is easy, and not as they call him,

except the katadesmos, except all ancient writers, and especially Hesychius of Alexandreia, Kallasha is vivid document of ancient Makedonian. search the elements and aspirations and grammatical and syntax, you will find mainly older Aryan not Indian and second Greek, how come if Makedonians were rulling class the soldiers which is a low class pass Greek sounds and elements in Kallasha and not Illyrian and why Kallasha name Alexander since he was Lek?

SEARCH KALASHA CULTURE, THEY GET MARRIED THE SAME TIME GREEKS DID,
THEY USE THE SAME ANCIENT CALLENDAR AS MAKEDONIANS AND STILL KEEP SOME THAT ARE LOST IN GREEK, SAME TIME THEY HAVE ARYAN CUSTOMS, analyze them and you will realise an ancient Indo-ARYAN with Lower Thracian and Greek components

I am tired of wrotting again and again the same

Try to avoid Nationalistic in this forum
keep it for other blogs forums
plz stop filling with nationalistic crup areas which try to avoid it


ENOUGH WITH THIS

MODERN ALBANIAN SHOW A GENETICAL CONTINUITY WITH ANCIENT ILLYRIAN
BUT ALSO SHOW A LINGUISTIC BREAK FROM ANCIENT ILLYRIAN


ACCCEPT IT

THERE IS NO PURE RACE, IN BALKANS,


AND TO FINALIZE

SEARCH THE WORD BESA exists only in Albanian language,
the only simmilar word that we find from ancient times is Βησιοι

Goga
25-08-12, 01:52
http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg

http://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/

Finalise
25-08-12, 05:55
I am tired of nationalistic Stupidity that runs through the Brain of Some,

Greek Olympus is mountain and not Olympia
Olympus exist in Cyprus minor Asia (turkey)


I lir means free, so the land is iliria after free?
and the peopel are free? from whom? from them shelves?


olympia is where the olympics where held, olympUS was the mountain, sorry I made that mistake, although I dont see how that is nationalistic?
The "i lire" is only a suggestion I didnt stamp it as a fact, and it is not my suggestion nevertheless feel free to look it up in more details.
As it pertains to genetics and haplogroups, that is completely irrelevant here. Y-dna can be used to trace paleolithic and neolithic migrations that happened way before these more modern tribes and kingdoms. we have no idea what each of these tribes' genetical makeup was, whether they were even multi-ethnic for that fact, and were united only by a cultural/linguistical basis. genetics of people even differ within the same country itself, thats why these arguments are completely futile.

Finalise
25-08-12, 05:59
who cares about slavic migrations into the balkans after 600CE, the discussion was about illyrians and albanians.......you do know that the celts migrated into illyrian lands before the slavs...don't you?............you do know the goths went into the balkans before the slavs ...don't you..........Do you realise the illyrians where already mixing with these celtic and gothic people..........why do you exclude this?

the celts and goths did have an effect although it wasnt nearly as significant as the slavic migrations, which set the boundaries for countries up to this date, thats why i didnt mention those. I dont really see your point here?

Finalise
25-08-12, 06:07
Try to avoid Nationalistic in this forum
keep it for other blogs forums
plz stop filling with nationalistic crup areas which try to avoid it


ENOUGH WITH THIS

MODERN ALBANIAN SHOW A GENETICAL CONTINUITY WITH ANCIENT ILLYRIAN
BUT ALSO SHOW A LINGUISTIC BREAK FROM ANCIENT ILLYRIAN


ACCCEPT IT

THERE IS NO PURE RACE, IN BALKANS,


AND TO FINALIZE

SEARCH THE WORD BESA exists only in Albanian language,
the only simmilar word that we find from ancient times is Βησιοι

Just because there was a comment about the greek language borrowings, it doesnt make this thread nationalistic. I dont understand what youre trying to get at. When did I say there was a pure race in the balkans? I specifically said I will try to establish the continuity based on a historical/linguistic basis. I also never said there was a link between Illyrian and Macedonian, I said Im not sure of any link between them. The concept of besa was also found in celtic and germanic tribes - search john bassett trumper albanian language on youtube for this -. For the rest, I dont see what youre trying to get at dude.... If I offended you because I mentioned the word greek and the greek language, Im sorry then.

Yetos
25-08-12, 10:17
Just because there was a comment about the greek language borrowings, it doesnt make this thread nationalistic. I dont understand what youre trying to get at. When did I say there was a pure race in the balkans? I specifically said I will try to establish the continuity based on a historical/linguistic basis. I also never said there was a link between Illyrian and Macedonian, I said Im not sure of any link between them. The concept of besa was also found in celtic and germanic tribes - search john bassett trumper albanian language on youtube for this -. For the rest, I dont see what youre trying to get at dude.... If I offended you because I mentioned the word greek and the greek language, Im sorry then.

well sometimes I got angry cause i am tired of balkanic modern nationalistic issues, sometimes are even in school books, that existed also in my Country and i don't blame you or someone else, I blaim every mind that tries to create complex theories about a 'super race' that has destiny to 'rule the world'
searching and bringing new data is good,
but it seems that in every balkanic country there is a group that produces hyper-theories,


Goga in post #17 put the problem in a more correct basis, meaning if Albanian is an exelixis, a descent of ancient Illyrian +lower Thracian only then we might speak of a clear Anatolian hypothesis,

and I do believe in anatolian origin of IE but it seems that what Eupedia describes is more secure and stable with today evidence.

ok I am sorry if i got mad, but for more than 1 year it seems I am explaining the same again and again,

Dianatomia
25-08-12, 16:26
Just because there was a comment about the greek language borrowings, it doesnt make this thread nationalistic. I dont understand what youre trying to get at. When did I say there was a pure race in the balkans? I specifically said I will try to establish the continuity based on a historical/linguistic basis. I also never said there was a link between Illyrian and Macedonian, I said Im not sure of any link between them. The concept of besa was also found in celtic and germanic tribes - search john bassett trumper albanian language on youtube for this -. For the rest, I dont see what youre trying to get at dude.... If I offended you because I mentioned the word greek and the greek language, Im sorry then.

You made a claim which can not be substantiated with historical evidence. Namely that only the ruling classes of Epirus and Macedonia were Greek. If you can show us some documents with a distinct Epirean or Macedonian language. Something like that could be very useful to us. Other than that, it's not science and does have a modern nationalistic undertone.

Genetically and anthropologically, I doubt that you can find evidence that in ancient times there were many differences between Epireans, Macedonians (according to you non-Greeks) and Thessalians (I assume you consider them to be Greeks). Since they were all paleo-balkanic populations and were genetically related anyway. So we can only label them by their culture, language, their belief system and what have you.

Having said that, it doesn't make a difference from a Greek point of view, if some tribes were NOT Greeks at some point in time and did become Greeks at a later stage. Because we know that exactly that has happened at some earlier point in time anyway. Think about the Minoans and the Pelasgians to cite but a few examples.

So all I am interested in is, based on the above criteria, how can you tell the people of Macedonia and Epirus were not Greek and Thessalians were?

Finalise
25-08-12, 17:53
So all I am interested in is, based on the above criteria, how can you tell the people of Macedonia and Epirus were not Greek and Thessalians were?

by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) considered Apollonia an important[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia,_Illyria#cite_note-Hansen_2004_page.3D328-4) example of an oligarchic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy) system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serf) population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.

Yetos
25-08-12, 18:58
by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) considered Apollonia an important[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia,_Illyria#cite_note-Hansen_2004_page.3D328-4) example of an oligarchic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy) system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serf) population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.

Epirus Nova is the land that Greek colonise,

Greeks had 3 systems of colonisation,

a total new city-state

a depend on metropolis city-town

an emporium trading post

in the Illiricum wars remember Greeks supported an unite Illyrians and even devastate up to Dardania in order to resist and avoid Romans,

Oligarchic system had many cities like Sparta,
there 2 kinds of oligarchy,
The Feudal one
the democratic rule of one class (Sparta system)

there is abig difference among oligarchy and tyrrany

do you have the source that Aristotle describes?

Finalise
25-08-12, 19:24
do you have the source that Aristotle describes?

yea click on the 5... its straight from wikipedia. When i mentioned epirus (nova) and macedonia (which was a roman province later on, that incorporated albania) my point was that there was illyrians living in most of albania even since antiquity, since some people claim that only the very north of albania was illyrian the rest was greek.

DejaVu
25-08-12, 20:16
Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.

Dianatomia
25-08-12, 20:59
by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) considered Apollonia an important[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia,_Illyria#cite_note-Hansen_2004_page.3D328-4) example of an oligarchic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy) system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serf) population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.

Well, Epirus Nova was not Greek territory, although they certainly did influence the region to an extent. I think Epirus Nova can be compared to Paeonia. During the Roman era many Paeonian cities were hellenized and had Greek elites, but the population was still mostly Thracian.

On another note, in another thread I pointed out that Albanians from Epirus Nova are genetically closer to Greeks than to Kosovars. One should say that the Albanians ought to be closer to each other. But that is not the case. So that is interesting.

zanipolo
25-08-12, 21:43
by epirus i meant epirus nova which was the name for albania for a long time. I wasnt referring to the greek epirus, that has nothing to do with this topic. for example the cities of apollonia (near modern day fier) and dyrrhacium (durres). Quote" Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) considered Apollonia an important[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia,_Illyria#cite_note-Hansen_2004_page.3D328-4) example of an oligarchic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy) system, as the descendants of the Greek colonists controlled the city and prevailed over a large serf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serf) population of mostly Illyrian origin." Seriously people need to chill out. I have to make some references to other countries/states when Im talking about Illyria, Im not trying to offend anyone.

thanks

I agree with yetos of the albanians entering modern albania via moesia, this below needs to be investigated as too my theory of albanians from NE thracian lands

page 66
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6L49AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=moesia&source=bl&ots=A7kbeQ9_d7&sig=0YohF5oyIb7ESu90F_lJctBLDJA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Uik5UK2nC6yUmQWHtIGoBA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=illyrian&f=false

MOESAN
25-08-12, 22:25
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split

This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.

Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.

Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.


Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.

#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.

#3 - Centum/Satem Theory

This is quite an interesting one. Albanian is established as Satem, while Illyrian might have been Centum, but there is not enough evidence. First of all, let me start by saying that NO LANGUAGE IS 100% Centum and Satem. All IE languages have features from both, although some an amount of overwhelming more examples than others. For example while one language can have 85% words with Centum features it might also have another 15% with Satem.

Second of all, Tocharian pretty much shattered this theory. Although there is undeniably a shift that has undergone from PIE, no one knows how this shift took place. The best guess would be areal contact, rather than a Proto-Satem Proto-Centum theory, although even that is just a guess. So we can't use this theory, until we know more about this shift to deny that one language is Centum and it cannot be derived from Satem. In French, the word cent is pronounce so, a satem feature derived from a centum language. There's another linguist (too lazy to look him up, its on wiktionary I think) that supports the argument that one cannot use this pseudo-theory to determine if a satem/centum can develop into a centum/satem, since all languages share features from both.

Illyrian has examples of Satem features as well. For example the name Gentius is found in 2 forms, Gentius and Zanatis which both derived from PIE gen.


My fingers are tired of typing, so Ill stop now. Theres also a ton of other arguments, I just chose to adress the main ones. I might add new stuff later. Feel free to disagree/agree with me, BUT PLEASE LEAVE YOUR BIAS OUT THE DOOR. If you have one that is.

just to say that for me concerning the most of phonetic phenomenons, the direction satem to centum is very uneasy to believe compared to the reverse: centum to satem

DejaVu
25-08-12, 22:32
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg


WATCH CAREFULLY

THE ABOVE IS NOT A RULLING CLASS DOCUMENT NEITHER A THEOCRATIC AS ZEUS10 SAY LANGUAGE

IS A COMMON MAKEDONIAN DIALECT LANGUAGE SPOKEN MUCH BEFORE ALEXANDER AND PHILLIP

IT A SIMPLE CURSE WHICH MADE BY AN ANONYMOUS WOMEN TO BIND HER LOVER

RULLING CLASS DON"T DO THIS

ENOUGH WITH STUPIDITY OF SLAVIC AND PARASLAVIC LANGUAGES

WATCH CAREFULLY

ALEXANDER ΑΛΕΞ+ΑΝΔΡΟΣ = PROTECT MEN = HE WHO PROTECTS THE MEN

LEK AND LEKKA watch end -ek
LIKE POLISH BOLEK LOLEK -EK IS FAMOUS SLAVIC ENDING
SEARCH THE NAME OF RUSSIAN PATRIARCHS IS ALEK+S LIKE ALBANIAN LEKA it miss the Andros
so the nationalistic stupidity must end sometime!

LEK as name is showing us the East part of Albanian language the next to scythian and Sarmatian, the once you afraid to claim due to recent events with Slavs
Lek is a Slavic name not a Greek neither Illyrian end in -ek like many Poland Chech Slovak names

EXCEPT IF SLAVIC LANGUAGE EXISTED BEFORE THE 5TH CENTURY AD in Balkans

Nationalist stupidity sometimes has its limit.

ELEMENTS OF ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE WE FIND AT KALLASHA PEOPLE
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY SPEAK ILLYRIAN OR ALBANIAN?
ALL SCIENTISTS SPEAK ABOUT a ARYAN LANGUAGE WITH SOUNDS LIKE GREEK ESPECIALLY THE S Δ !!!!
IF ancient Makedonians were Albano-Illyrians then KALLASHA would name Alexander as Lek which is easy, and not as they call him,

except the katadesmos, except all ancient writers, and especially Hesychius of Alexandreia, Kallasha is vivid document of ancient Makedonian. search the elements and aspirations and grammatical and syntax, you will find mainly older Aryan not Indian and second Greek, how come if Makedonians were rulling class the soldiers which is a low class pass Greek sounds and elements in Kallasha and not Illyrian and why Kallasha name Alexander since he was Lek?

SEARCH KALASHA CULTURE, THEY GET MARRIED THE SAME TIME GREEKS DID,
THEY USE THE SAME ANCIENT CALLENDAR AS MAKEDONIANS AND STILL KEEP SOME THAT ARE LOST IN GREEK, SAME TIME THEY HAVE ARYAN CUSTOMS, analyze them and you will realise an ancient Indo-ARYAN with Lower Thracian and Greek components

I am tired of wrotting again and again the same

Try to avoid Nationalistic in this forum
keep it for other blogs forums
plz stop filling with nationalistic crup areas which try to avoid it


ENOUGH WITH THIS

MODERN ALBANIAN SHOW A GENETICAL CONTINUITY WITH ANCIENT ILLYRIAN
BUT ALSO SHOW A LINGUISTIC BREAK FROM ANCIENT ILLYRIAN


ACCCEPT IT

THERE IS NO PURE RACE, IN BALKANS,


AND TO FINALIZE

SEARCH THE WORD BESA exists only in Albanian language,
the only simmilar word that we find from ancient times is Βησιοι


WATCH CAREFULLY

MAKE DON IA
Make (Majke, Majka) = Mother
Don (Donna) = Godess (Woman, Lady)
ia (ija) = Land


Google Translate English to Hindi
World of mother = Makedunya = Makedonia

Original meaning of the word Makedonia = Mother of the World


New Indo-European Language Discovered
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27661-New-Indo-European-Language-Discovered
More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
Prof Casule said that the language is most probably ancient Phrygian.

Kalash people dont speak greek neither do the rest who claim Macedonian heritage from Alexander the greats army.
Ancestors of Alexander the Great of Makedon did not speak Greek but Burushaski "Phrygian"

End of discussion

zanipolo
25-08-12, 22:44
we need to consider that the northern Illyrian tibes are older than the southern ones, as an example the Liburnians are far older than th Dalmatians and the liburnians colonised apulia in 1200BCE ( the messapic linguistic area) and corfu............they gave away corfu to the corinthians in 750BCE.

The push by the celts from the north forced a southern push of illyrians into the then known lands held by thracian and hellenic people.
Some illyrian northern tribes merged with the celts like the noricum area ( western austria, northern croatia and slovenia )

North Picene is another area in romagna Italy as settled by the Liburnians

DejaVu
25-08-12, 22:52
None of you are discussing the thread topic "Illyrian-Albanian continuity".
Time to change the name of this thread to something more relevant to the discussions here.

Yetos
26-08-12, 00:29
Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.

Indeed, that is a good question,
which is the esonyme and which is the exonyme

Yetos
26-08-12, 00:43
WATCH CAREFULLY

MAKE DON IA
Make (Majke, Majka) = Mother
Don (Donna) = Godess (Woman, Lady)
ia (ija) = Land


Google Translate English to Hindi
World of mother = Makedunya = Makedonia

Original meaning of the word Makedonia = Mother of the World


New Indo-European Language Discovered
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27661-New-Indo-European-Language-Discovered
More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
Prof Casule said that the language is most probably ancient Phrygian.

Kalash people dont speak greek neither do the rest who claim Macedonian heritage from Alexander the greats army.
Ancestors of Alexander the Great of Makedon did not speak Greek but Burushaski "Phrygian"

End of discussion


so we need Hindi to explain a European toponym?

did I said kallasha speak Greek?
why did you put that words in my mouth

so Kallasha godess Zestia
and god Diu Zeo is after Hindi?

and a good question for you

in Kallasha we find a tribe as Sarakats
In Makedonia, Slavic Makedonia, Thrace (south Bulgaria) Thessaly and Central Greece we also find a tribe as Sarakatsani
is it a coinsidence?

End of discusion,

Finalise
26-08-12, 01:14
Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.
First of all, calm down and breathe. Second of all, Shqiptar is only a modern term that wasnt mentioned before 13-14th century. Second of all, Albania was called Arberi in medieval times. Albanian enclaves in Italy still call themselves Arberesh.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia " The medieval ethnonyms Arbanitai and Arbanios and the corresponding modern ethnonyms Arvanite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanite), Arber, and Arbëreshë (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB) are considered by many linguists to have the same etymology as Albania, being derived from the stem Alb- by way of a rhotacism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism), Alb- → Arb-. Compare the rhotacism of alb- into arv- in the Neapolitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_language) dialect of Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). ". Not all, but the majority already agree on this.

Finalise
26-08-12, 01:15
so we need Hindi to explain a European toponym?

did I said kallasha speak Greek?
why did you put that words in my mouth

so Kallasha godess Zestia
and god Diu Zeo is after Hindi?

and a good question for you

in Kallasha we find a tribe as Sarakats
In Makedonia, Slavic Makedonia, Thrace (south Bulgaria) Thessaly and Central Greece we also find a tribe as Sarakatsani
is it a coinsidence?

End of discusion,

Enough with the Greek discussion please, open a new thread, this one is already getting flooded.

Finalise
26-08-12, 01:20
just to say that for me concerning the most of phonetic phenomenons, the direction satem to centum is very uneasy to believe compared to the reverse: centum to satem

I agree with you. I just threw it out randomly. Centum to Satem seems like a way more plausible theory. That is why Illyrian or an Illyrian dialect (seemingly centum although not proven) could give rise to another seemingly satem language like Albanian. Albanian is a bit different than other satem languages, I dont have time to explain this but feel free to look it up.

Finalise
26-08-12, 04:28
Again, guys, I'm not saying Illyrians and their language are the direct ancestors of the Albanians and their language, but what I'm trying to say is this very likely. Personally, I would put the odds at 80% Illyrian, 15% Thracian, 4.99% Dacian, 0.01% another paleo-balkanic language. What this means in terms of linguistics is enormous. A seemingly probable "centum" language giving birth to what seems to be a satem language. If some Illyrian texts/phrases are found (written in either Greek or Latin alphabet), it would have a huge effect on the centum/satem paradigm, more likely so than what Tocharian did for this theory.

Yetos
26-08-12, 10:19
Again, guys, I'm not saying Illyrians and their language are the direct ancestors of the Albanians and their language, but what I'm trying to say is this very likely. Personally, I would put the odds at 80% Illyrian, 15% Thracian, 4.99% Dacian, 0.01% another paleo-balkanic language. What this means in terms of linguistics is enormous. A seemingly probable "centum" language giving birth to what seems to be a satem language. If some Illyrian texts/phrases are found (written in either Greek or Latin alphabet), it would have a huge effect on the centum/satem paradigm, more likely so than what Tocharian did for this theory.

and again I repat my shelf,
and i ask the question DejaVu ask?

are you try to convice us? or it is certified to you?

the percentances are based to what? with what data you make that 80% and rest numbers?
I mean what is the 80 data out of 100 that make that %?

for one more time (I don't know thr score) i repeat,
the genetical data show a genetical connection among Illyrians and today Albanians to a quite enough degree,
the linguistic Data show a break, an import of a language that does not fit in area which assimilated all older languages,

A simmilar phenomenon exist in England, with Celtic and Germanic languages, only there we know the population devastations.

and in Italian Alps with Germanic and Italian

Finalise
27-08-12, 00:54
and again I repat my shelf,
and i ask the question DejaVu ask?

are you try to convice us? or it is certified to you?

the percentances are based to what? with what data you make that 80% and rest numbers?
I mean what is the 80 data out of 100 that make that %?

for one more time (I don't know thr score) i repeat,
the genetical data show a genetical connection among Illyrians and today Albanians to a quite enough degree,
the linguistic Data show a break, an import of a language that does not fit in area which assimilated all older languages,

A simmilar phenomenon exist in England, with Celtic and Germanic languages, only there we know the population devastations.

and in Italian Alps with Germanic and Italian

genetic data??? we barely have any linguistic data, youre already going on about genetics. If you want to know what I'm trying to establish with this thread, I reccomend you go and read all of it including the beginning, rather than just reading the title and typing your opinion which somehow mostly involves something about greece.

zanipolo
27-08-12, 08:05
Lets stick to the facts, these are ,

1. The illyrian where conquered and annexed by the Romans in 168BCE
2 . The illyrian revolt in around 9AD , basically let to the slaughter and migration of many illyrian tribes
3. in around 60 AD the Roman imported people from NE Romanian lands, 50,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelius_Catus
these people where placed in moesia.
4. from the annexation of illyria in 168BCE to Ptolemy mentioning Albanoi for the first time in 150CE is a span of 318 years where the Romans explored the lands for gold, silver, ore etc etc ....you saying they could not find these Albanoi in albanian lands in over 300 years!

lets think about this

Finalise
27-08-12, 08:57
Lets stick to the facts, these are ,

1. The illyrian where conquered and annexed by the Romans in 168BCE
2 . The illyrian revolt in around 9AD , basically let to the slaughter and migration of many illyrian tribes
3. in around 60 AD the Roman imported people from NE Romanian lands, 50,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelius_Catus
these people where placed in moesia.
4. from the annexation of illyria in 168BCE to Ptolemy mentioning Albanoi for the first time in 150CE is a span of 318 years where the Romans explored the lands for gold, silver, ore etc etc ....you saying they could not find these Albanoi in albanian lands in over 300 years!

lets think about this

Brought 50 000 people what are you talking about? your link says nothing....it just says who aelius is. Either stick to the arguments I brought up and agree/disagree/debate against them, or dont say anything at all. I dont have the time to answer all these random posts. I have presented the main arguments by historians. Do not bring up these obscure "facts". Either stick to the points I have presented and agree/disagree with them, or do not post anything at all.

zanipolo
27-08-12, 11:17
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split

This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.


If you want to act like a 13year old............then here

#1 - irrelevant to the title



Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.

irrelevant to the title
Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics


Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)

irrelevant to the title
there is scarcity of Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory


Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.


illyrians where not present when Byzantines existed - there was vlach migrations by the byzantines in the area in question


Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.


he also said that albanian speak a eastern romanian dialogue and this was agreed by many linguists


#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.


borrowings of hundreds of words , far more than any other borrowed from other languages

Finalise
27-08-12, 19:57
If you want to act like a 13year old............then here

#1 - irrelevant to the title




irrelevant to the title
Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics



irrelevant to the title
there is scarcity of Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory



illyrians where not present when Byzantines existed - there was vlach migrations by the byzantines in the area in question



he also said that albanian speak a eastern romanian dialogue and this was agreed by many linguists



borrowings of hundreds of words , far more than any other borrowed from other languages

first of all english's vocabulary is about 60% latin, and its still not considered a romance language.
second of all, dont use weasel phrases like agreed by many linguists.
third of all, you dismiss my two main arguments #1 the tosk-gheg split and #2 ancient latin vocabulary, by saying they're irrelevant?
the tosk-gheg split definitely happened 1500 years ago, around the center of Albania, around the same time historians agree the Illyrian languages went exctinct. which means proto albanian existed in Albania roughly the same time as Illyrian. you see my point?
Second of all, there is 3 waves of latin words in Albanian. One of those waves is words from 300-200 BC ancient latin NOT FOUND in romanian, care to explain those?

DejaVu
27-08-12, 20:12
Finalise, your thread name is Illyrian-Albanian continuity.
This is a statement and not a question.
Why are you all continuing discussions about different topic?
I ask for renaming of this thread to something more accurate.
Dont forget its posted under linguistics, that means linguistic connection only.
How come a Moderator have not seen whats posted here?
Matching name for thread: Albanian-Illyrian similarities.
Why new thread when albanian language thread exist?
Close thread or rename it.

Eldritch
27-08-12, 20:32
There're some obscure points about this continuity, but if Albanians aren't descendant of Illyrians than none else in Balkans is.

DejaVu
27-08-12, 20:41
There're some obscure points about this continuity, but if Albanians aren't descendant of Illyrians than none else in Balkans is.

100% WRONG

There might be individuals that are ancestors of Illyrians but not a modern nation today.
We are all from different ethnicity (tribes, nations) and so is the case even in today´s popultaion of nations.
There is no pure nation. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nation-state

Eldritch
27-08-12, 20:52
100% WRONG

There might be individuals that are ancestors of Illyrians but not a modern nation today.
We are all from different ethnicity (tribes, nations) and so is the case even in today´s popultaion of nations.
There is no pure nation. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nation-state
Obviously i'm talking to a large degree not 100%

Finalise
27-08-12, 22:00
Finalise, your thread name is Illyrian-Albanian continuity.
This is a statement and not a question.
Why are you all continuing discussions about different topic?
I ask for renaming of this thread to something more accurate.
Dont forget its posted under linguistics, that means linguistic connection only.
How come a Moderator have not seen whats posted here?
Matching name for thread: Albanian-Illyrian similarities.
Why new thread when albanian language thread exist?
Close thread or rename it.

The Albanian language thread is closed. The thread is mainly about linguistics, but you cannot completely isolate linguistics from history, so there is some overlap.

Finalise
27-08-12, 22:10
100% WRONG

There might be individuals that are ancestors of Illyrians but not a modern nation today.
We are all from different ethnicity (tribes, nations) and so is the case even in today´s popultaion of nations.
There is no pure nation. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nation-state

Of course, there is no pure nation. Even people within the same country differ genetically and to some extent linguistically. Even the Illyrians were not a pure race themselves. They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture). From http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm "As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today. In a small series of early Christian crania from a site near Split on the Dalmatian coast, 23 both Dinaric brachycephals and a few long-headed crania are represented. In Albania, a country which is almost completely unknown archaeologically, a single skull which belonged to a Romanized Illyrian group has been found in an Iron Age site in the tribe of Puka. 24 This skull is mesocephalic, and seems, insofar as we may judge, intermediate between the Illyrians of the old type and Dinarics.The significance of our study of the Illyrian peoples is as follows: on the plains of south central Germany and Lower Austria, where the Hallstatt culture arose, the racial type involved was skeletally a Nordic one. By this term we must understand that the Illyrian central type was similar in cranial dimensions, proportions, and general form to that of the Germans of the Völkerwanderung period. Historical evidence as to the pigmentation of the Illyrians is conflicting, 25 and insufficient to warrant the formation of an opinion on this matter. This "Nordic" type is no special or separate race, but merely a variant of the larger Mediterranean family, of an intermediate metrical position.
It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders. It seems most likely that the Illyrians were largely the descendants, more specifically, of the Aunjetitz people, through an Urnfields medium, or of some similar physical blend composed of identical racial ingredients.
".

Btw I didnt source anything feel free to look stuff up. My point is that all nations are a mixture, thats why I dont want to go into the whole genetics thing, and only stick to historical/linguistics. IMO the whole Y-Dna thing, is just a pseudo-science, and largely misunderstood.

DejaVu
27-08-12, 23:42
Of course, there is no pure nation. Even people within the same country differ genetically and to some extent linguistically. Even the Illyrians were not a pure race themselves. They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture). From http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm "As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today. In a small series of early Christian crania from a site near Split on the Dalmatian coast, 23 both Dinaric brachycephals and a few long-headed crania are represented. In Albania, a country which is almost completely unknown archaeologically, a single skull which belonged to a Romanized Illyrian group has been found in an Iron Age site in the tribe of Puka. 24 This skull is mesocephalic, and seems, insofar as we may judge, intermediate between the Illyrians of the old type and Dinarics.The significance of our study of the Illyrian peoples is as follows: on the plains of south central Germany and Lower Austria, where the Hallstatt culture arose, the racial type involved was skeletally a Nordic one. By this term we must understand that the Illyrian central type was similar in cranial dimensions, proportions, and general form to that of the Germans of the Völkerwanderung period. Historical evidence as to the pigmentation of the Illyrians is conflicting, 25 and insufficient to warrant the formation of an opinion on this matter. This "Nordic" type is no special or separate race, but merely a variant of the larger Mediterranean family, of an intermediate metrical position.
It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders. It seems most likely that the Illyrians were largely the descendants, more specifically, of the Aunjetitz people, through an Urnfields medium, or of some similar physical blend composed of identical racial ingredients.
".

Btw I didnt source anything feel free to look stuff up. My point is that all nations are a mixture, thats why I dont want to go into the whole genetics thing, and only stick to historical/linguistics. IMO the whole Y-Dna thing, is just a pseudo-science, and largely misunderstood.

You are continuing with posts that have nothing to do with thread topic.

"They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture)."
No information about Illyrians being E-V13 or J2.
There is no such DNA found and connected with Illyrians.
Guessing is not same as found DNA from the persons.
Stop posting about what you think they had.
E-V13 and J2 is connected with all balkan people and many other, not only with Albanians.
What you are saying is what we know already "Illyrian-Balkan continuity" and not exclusive Albanian.

Finalise
28-08-12, 04:41
You are continuing with posts that have nothing to do with thread topic.

"They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture)."
No information about Illyrians being E-V13 or J2.
There is no such DNA found and connected with Illyrians.
Guessing is not same as found DNA from the persons.
Stop posting about what you think they had.
E-V13 and J2 is connected with all balkan people and many other, not only with Albanians.
What you are saying is what we know already "Illyrian-Balkan continuity" and not exclusive Albanian.






What do you mean nothing to do with the topic? What do you think I'm talking about, the U.S. economy or human rights in China? I know E-V13 and J2 are connected with other balkan peoples, thats why I said INDIGENOUS BALKAN POPULATIONS yet to mix with the Proto-Illyrians descending from the north. There is no doubt that Albanians are genetically descendant for the MOST PART (NOT ALL) from Illyrians. It is absurd to say the people that were there, just completely disappeared off the face of the earth just because there is no detailed record of them for a few hundred years.

What I'm trying to discuss is very similar in the case of the Magyars/Hungarians. Although, Hungarians are extremely similar to their neighbours genetically, the "ORIGINAL" Magyars (the bearers of the language) did not originate in modern day Hungary. The same case is being discussed about Albanians by historians. Were the original "Albanians" just a descendant from a mixture of Illyrian tribes, or other tribes which migrated over and exerted their language to the Illyrian population during the era of Slavic migrations.

Yetos
28-08-12, 09:14
What do you mean nothing to do with the topic? What do you think I'm talking about, the U.S. economy or human rights in China? I know E-V13 and J2 are connected with other balkan peoples, thats why I said INDIGENOUS BALKAN POPULATIONS yet to mix with the Proto-Illyrians descending from the north. There is no doubt that Albanians are genetically descendant for the MOST PART (NOT ALL) from Illyrians. It is absurd to say the people that were there, just completely disappeared off the face of the earth just because there is no detailed record of them for a few hundred years.

What I'm trying to discuss is very similar in the case of the Magyars/Hungarians. Although, Hungarians are extremely similar to their neighbours genetically, the "ORIGINAL" Magyars (the bearers of the language) did not originate in modern day Hungary. The same case is being discussed about Albanians by historians. Were the original "Albanians" just a descendant from a mixture of Illyrian tribes, or other tribes which migrated over and exerted their language to the Illyrian population during the era of Slavic migrations.

Finally you start to realize,
check Anjou and Hunja-des both from same homeland origin, both connected with Albania, wonder maybe the same family name? anjou=hunja? that I can not certify,
on the other hand Arbanitika for many linguists are considered as not Albanian but early Albanian, something like ancient Greek to modern Greek,
so we probably speak of a pre 1050 1rst devastation (even in ancient times), and a devastation at Anjou and Hhunjades times, or a lingua Franca of Dukas (Dukas is nobility tittle)

on the other hand the existance of Goranje population, (you call them muslim Slavs,)
shows a Northern migration, Goranje are connected with Severi, Slavic tribes from Ucraine that pass Romania to Bulgaria to Slavic Makedonia to ALbania to Greece, does not seem able to make that overlap, at least to me, although I might be wrong,
I believe that break started happened in more ancient times before Slavic Migrations, although I might be wrong.

vetus
30-09-13, 10:34
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. All you have to do is look at what history tells us. History tells us that Illyrian pirates started attacking roman merchant ships. The merchants then asked the roman government to stop the illyrian piracy on the adriatic. Finally Rome decided to go to war with illyria. There were 3 illyrian wars, the last one ended in 168BC, with Rome conquering illyria. The romans romanised the illyrians. The illyrians started speaking latin, vulgar latin specifically. The illyrians didnt write their language, so it was easy for rome to latinize them. New generations were taught latin, and once the older generations died, so did their language and culture. The illyrians were R-O-M-A-N-I-Z-E-D. Illyrian language is dead, and so is their culture. If you want to find the descendants of illyrians, they will have to be romance language speakers in the balkan. Albanian language is not a romance language. If albanians were descendants of illyrians they would have to speak a romance language. But they don't. This tells us that the ancestors of albanians in roman times were outside of roman territory.

adamo
30-09-13, 15:59
The Illyrians were indigenous Balkanic I2a tribesmen that seem to have descended from the Bosnia-Herzegovina region towards Albania; they are a genetic component of several different groups in the region...I2a is present at it's highest frequencies near Bosnia-Herzegovina/Croatia...Macedonia,Montenegro parts of Bulgaria, Slovenia, Moldova and the Ukraine also have slightly more inflated frequencies. Also present across Albania and the northern reaches of Greece from east all the way to west , also present in Romanian males.

LeBrok
30-09-13, 17:28
The illyrians didnt write their language, so it was easy for rome to latinize them. New generations were taught latin, and once the older generations died, y.
Keep in mind that there were no public schools nor TV to teach locals Latin quickly. Majority of Illyrians lived in Villages, but only in cities they would have some contacts with Roman officers or traders. Learning a new language by whole population was a very long process, counted in many hundreds of years. You can find many examples in today's europe where different ethnic groups speak their language, in spite of being surrounded by official language for centuries. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine that any language could survive till today, especially when it was isolated in Mountainous area.

adamo
30-09-13, 19:57
The Illyrians descended from bosniia-Herzegovina towards Albania...who else could they have been then I2a men along with thracians and Dacians? Where they maybe R1b celts?

Garrick
30-09-13, 21:51
The Illyrians were indigenous Balkanic I2a tribesmen that seem to have descended from the Bosnia-Herzegovina region towards Albania; they are a genetic component of several different groups in the region...I2a is present at it's highest frequencies near Bosnia-Herzegovina/Croatia...Macedonia,Montenegro parts of Bulgaria, Slovenia, Moldova and the Ukraine also have slightly more inflated frequencies. Also present across Albania and the northern reaches of Greece from east all the way to west , also present in Romanian males.

Haplogroup I2a is most spread in Bosnia and Herzegovina (55.5%), Croatia (37%) and Serbia (33%), data from Eupedia.

Macedonian researcher Dr Jankovski was found that Serbs, Croats and Bosnians have most similar DNA, and Macedonians too.

From all nations that he explored, Kosovo (Geg) Albanians are most different from others.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/serbs-croats-have-most-similar-dna

vetus
30-09-13, 22:54
Keep in mind that there were no public schools nor TV to teach locals Latin quickly. Majority of Illyrians lived in Villages, but only in cities they would have some contacts with Roman officers or traders. Learning a new language by whole population was a very long process, counted in many hundreds of years. You can find many examples in today's europe where different ethnic groups speak their language, in spite of being surrounded by official language for centuries. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine that any language could survive till today, especially when it was isolated in Mountainous area.


Just to put things in perspective for you, illyria was not the only place that was romanised. To the west of italy, france and spain, known in roman times as gaul and hispania respectively, were romanised too. Both france and spain speak romance languages, western romance languages, ultimately derived from latin. Their language is hard stone, concrete evidence that they were romanised. You say it would take hundreds of years to romanise illyria. Well, lets take a look at gaul and hispania. Gaul was finally conquered in 52BC by augustus caesar. Thats 116 years after illyria was conquered by the romans. Hispania was finally conquered in 17BC, 151 years after illyria was conquered. If rome was able to romanise gaul and hispania in a shorter period of time, who each one of them were bigger in population and land area than illyria, why wouldnt rome be able to romanise illyria?! When you combine both gaul and hispania together, they were way bigger in population and land area than illyria.

vetus
01-10-13, 00:20
Whats up with all this talk about serbians, bosnians, and croatians being illyrians. Do any of these people speak a romance language?! I don't need anybody to answer that question because the answer is NO. What about the albanians? Neither do they. Let's take for example bosnians. Just because bosnians today live in a land previouly inhabited by illyrians, that doesn't make them descendants of illyrians. If they were descendants of illyrians, they wouldn't speak a south slavic language. If we were to go by linguistic grounds, then none of these 4 peoples can claim descent from illyrians. As far as the albanians go, there is a difference between albanians and serbians,bosnians and croatians. They predate the serbians, bosnians or croatians in the balkans. Serbian, bosnian and croatian are south slavic languages. Slavic languages are a recent arrival in the balkans that came with the arrival of slavs. As for albanian language, there is 3 possibilities, them being illyrian, thracian, or dacian. Illyrian seems the least likely possiblility, with thracian and dacian being most likely. Whether it's thracian or dacian, both thracians and dacians predate the slavs in the balkans by a long time. So serbs or any other slavs for that matter can not claim any precedence over albanians in the balkans. Most believe that albanians were originally from a mountainous land. So what are they doing on the eastern coast of the adriatic? They were forced to move by westward and southward migrations of central asian people and slavs. The other option was to stay and get destroyed by populations that were way way bigger than the albanian populations.

Garrick
01-10-13, 01:13
Whats up with all this talk about serbians, bosnians, and croatians being illyrians. Do any of these people speak a romance language?! I don't need anybody to answer that question because the answer is NO. What about the albanians? Neither do they. Let's take for example bosnians. Just because bosnians today live in a land previouly inhabited by illyrians, that doesn't make them descendants of illyrians. If they were descendants of illyrians, they wouldn't speak a south slavic language. If we were to go by linguistic grounds, then none of these 4 peoples can claim descent from illyrians. As far as the albanians go, there is a difference between albanians and serbians,bosnians and croatians. They predate the serbians, bosnians or croatians in the balkans. Serbian, bosnian and croatian are south slavic languages. Slavic languages are a recent arrival in the balkans that came with the arrival of slavs. As for albanian language, there is 3 possibilities, them being illyrian, thracian, or dacian. Illyrian seems the least likely possiblility, with thracian and dacian being most likely. Whether it's thracian or dacian, both thracians and dacians predate the slavs in the balkans by a long time. So serbs or any other slav for that matter have no right to claim any precedence over albanians in the balkans. Most believe that albanians were originally from a mountainous land. So what are they doing on the eastern coast of the adriatic? They were forced to move by westward and southward migrations of central asian people and slavs. The other option was to stay and get destroyed by populations that were way way bigger than the albanian populations.

You can see today's scientific studies, R1a in the Balkans is very, very old, oldest Balkan haplogroup, in Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia over 10.000 years old. Today's Balkan I2a is about 2.300 year old. Of course there may be errors in the accurate estimations but do not change substance unless some new finding does not bring change.

For arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans in 6th century? According Y-DNA findings, it is third big movement R1a to Balkans. First movement was a long time ago (you have estimate), and another about 4.500 years.

And for Thracians. Maybe you read that a lot Thracian tribes are Serbs. For Thracian no doubt because it is described in history. Possible they were carriers of I2a (and R1a) haplogroup.

Who are Thracians, Illyrians etc. Only different tribes, not peoples or nations. And it is possible that same haplogroups these tribes are haplogroups Serbs, Macedonians, Bosniacs, Croats, who have almost same haplogroups and belong to the same genera.

When the Illyrians in question there is a mistake in understanding. Province Romana Illyricum and Greek Illyria are not same. Also, it can only be intrepreted as a geographical term. Term Illyrians may signify a collection of unrelated tribes that had possibly different haplogroups and spoke different languages. Possible that southern tribes were mostly E1b1b1a2. And also is possible that middle and north tribes were I2a+R1a. And that tribes among themselves did not have anything in common. Perhaps the Greeks called them by one name because they would otherwise have had to call each tribe separately. Researches Y-DNA of skeletions will give a more accurate picture.

LeBrok
01-10-13, 02:10
Just to put things in perspective for you, illyria was not the only place that was romanised. To the west of italy, france and spain, known in roman times as gaul and hispania respectively, were romanised too. Both france and spain speak romance languages, western romance languages, ultimately derived from latin. Their language is hard stone, concrete evidence that they were romanised. You say it would take hundreds of years to romanise illyria. Well, lets take a look at gaul and hispania. Gaul was finally conquered in 52BC by augustus caesar. Thats 116 years after illyria was conquered by the romans. Hispania was finally conquered in 17BC, 151 years after illyria was conquered. If rome was able to romanise gaul and hispania in a shorter period of time, who each one of them were bigger in population and land area than illyria, why wouldnt rome be able to romanise illyria?! When you combine both gaul and hispania together, they were way bigger in population and land area than illyria.
And how do you propose Basques were not Romanised, although they've been surrounded by a sea of Romanised people, and they've belonged to Roman Empire for 5 hundred years?
Can you agree that similar phenomenon could have happened in case of Albanians?

Ike
01-10-13, 02:39
@Vetus There are lot of other options. Anyway, if they find human remnants in Bosnia, 2000 years old, and they show up to be a perfect match for ancestors of todays Bosnians, would you believe that Bosnians were Illyrians?

adamo
01-10-13, 04:18
Maybe the basque are a non-romanized remnant of the iberian peninsula

vetus
02-10-13, 09:04
And how do you propose Basques were not Romanised, although they've been surrounded by a sea of Romanised people, and they've belonged to Roman Empire for 5 hundred years?
Can you agree that similar phenomenon could have happened in case of Albanians?


The Romans had very little interest in the Basque Country and they largely left the Basques alone. There was nothing beyond basque country but the atlantic. The romans were more interested in the mediterranean. They had no interest in the atlantic. The illyrians were a different situation. Beyond them to the east laid thrace and to the northeast the dacians and their gold. Check this link of the north american basque organizations and go to question 7 nabasque.org /Pages /FAQ.htm

vetus
02-10-13, 10:32
Vetus There are lot of other options. Anyway, if they find human remnants in Bosnia, 2000 years old, and they show up to be a perfect match for ancestors of todays Bosnians, would you believe that Bosnians were Illyrians?

The bosnian language and culture is not illyrian. There might be some individuals in bosnia who have illyrians genes. But that doesn't make bosnian language and culture illyrian. These individuals are the minority. The majority is bosnian. What that means is that those individuals were illyrians who got assimilated at some time by the bosnians. Even if there is such individuals, they have mixed with bosnians. They will be only partly illyrian in their genes. Just because bosnians are today in the land previously inhabited by illyrians, that doesn't make them automatically descendants of illyrians. If i decide to go tomorrow to central anatolia, modern day turkey and decide to live there, that doesn't make me descendant of the hittites that lived there 3400 years ago just because i live in a land previously inhabited by them.

Ike
02-10-13, 12:24
The bosnian language and culture is not illyrian.
What is Illyrian culture, so that we can compare? How do we know who were Illyrians? Romans and Greeks called different peoples Illyrians. Romans called territories Moesia and Illyria, so how do we know there was Illyrian people after all? Fallowing that logic there should be Moesian people too.



There might be some individuals in bosnia who have illyrians genes. But that doesn't make bosnian language and culture illyrian. These individuals are the minority.
Which do you count as Illyrian genes?



The majority is bosnian. What that means is that those individuals were illyrians who got assimilated at some time by the bosnians. Even if there is such individuals, they have mixed with bosnians. They will be only partly illyrian in their genes. Just because bosnians are today in the land previously inhabited by illyrians, that doesn't make them automatically descendants of illyrians.
What do you reckon is an Illyrian DNA, and what is Bosnian?



If i decide to go tomorrow to central anatolia, modern day turkey and decide to live there, that doesn't make me descendant of the hittites that lived there 3400 years ago just because i live in a land previously inhabited by them.
You're talking like I've chosen Bosnian population coincidentally. No it doesn't make you automatically, but there are strong DNA suggestions that major part of Bosnian people lived there during that time.

Marko94
02-10-13, 14:00
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.
Because have change term.
From Arbaresh have change to "Shqiptare".
How you explain that?
I think the name "Albania" was given by us in 1400 or 1500.
I think they were the Venetians.

Marko94
02-10-13, 14:05
What is Illyrian culture, so that we can compare? How do we know who were Illyrians? Romans and Greeks called different peoples Illyrians. Romans called territories Moesia and Illyria, so how do we know there was Illyrian people after all? Fallowing that logic there should be Moesian people too.




What is albanian culture? Why in albanian language you can find so many words latin and not greek or slavs?
Which are word "albanian" in language albanian?
If they had not existed the Romans and ancient greeks certainly did not know the existence of the illyrians.

LeBrok
02-10-13, 17:33
The Romans had very little interest in the Basque Country and they largely left the Basques alone. There was nothing beyond basque country but the atlantic. The romans were more interested in the mediterranean. They had no interest in the atlantic. The illyrians were a different situation. Beyond them to the east laid thrace and to the northeast the dacians and their gold. Check this link of the north american basque organizations and go to question 7 nabasque.org /Pages /FAQ.htm
There was huge Gallia and Britannia too by Atlantic.

Oh, so tell me now why Greece is not Latinized, although in center of Roman Empire.
There are many examples from Roman empire that it was not that easy for people to switch to other language, many resisted to the end. I can bet that people were talking Roman in Illyrian cities much faster than in villages, and that in some secluded villages and mountains illyrian language survived till end of empire. Keep in mind that there was no national program or classes to learn Roman, and that learning of it was voluntary.

vetus
02-10-13, 18:32
There was huge Gallia and Britannia too by Atlantic.

Oh, so tell me now why Greece is not Latinized, although in center of Roman Empire.
There are many examples from Roman empire that it was not that easy for people to switch to other language, many resisted to the end. I can bet that people were talking Roman in Illyrian cities much faster than in villages, and that in some secluded villages and mountains illyrian language survived till end of empire. Keep in mind that there was no national program or classes to learn Roman, and that learning of it was voluntary.


Because greece had an alphabet, they had written language, they had books, they had incriptions on stone. It would be extremely hard for rome to romanise greece. And rome borrowed heavily from greece. Romans were admirers of greek culture. Why would they want to destroy that which they admired? Yeah they resisted to the end and they died and theyre no more!! I dont know who youre referring to, show me those examples. Its not about what you can bet. Its about evidence and what you can prove. And romanisation was not voluntary. Now youre starting to speak nonsense. What you need to understand is that illyria was under roman rule for longer than anybody. And illyria was very close to italy. Illyria was completely romanised. Another thing that albanians think proves illyrian descent is the tribe of albanoi mentioned by ptolemy in 150AD. Lets take a closer look at this. Does the word albanoi mean anything in albanian? It means absolutely nothing. Does it mean anything in any other language? Yes. It means something in vlach and in latin which is where vlach is ultimately derived from. Its made up of 2 words alba + noi. Alba means white and noi means we. It basically means we white, or we the white. Albanians dont call themselves albanian in their language. They call themselves shqipetar and their language shqip. It is safe to assume that the albanoi were romanised illyrians. Albanoi spoke latin. Albanians speak shqip. The descendants of albanoi have to be latin speakers. Albania is an exonym. Albanians call themselves shqipetar. Whoever decided to call albania albania was both wrong and right. He was right in calling it albania because that was the land of the albanoi, but they were wrong to assume that shqipetars had anything to do with the albanoi. Albanoi spoke latin, shqipetars speak shqip. The descendants of the romanised albanoi have to be speakers of latin derived language. The albanoi were mentioned in 150 BC, 318 years after illyria was conquered by rome. Thats plenty of time for romanisation to have occured. The albanoi is clearly a latin word and it clearly points that they were people who were romanised. But i will tell you what means something in albanian. Have you heard of a thracian tribe called triballi? Well, it means something in albanian. Its made up of 2 words, tri + balli. Tri means three and balli means forehead or front. It basically means three forehead. And im sure you have heard of bessoi which means believe in albanian.

Nobody1
02-10-13, 19:15
@ Vetus

Just to clear it up;
Are you suggesting that the Istriots, Istro-Romanians and Aromanians(Vlachs) are the "true" descendants of the ancient Illyrians?

If i remember correctly than the big problem with ancient Illyrian language was that there are no survived inscriptions only toponyms and recorded personal names;

Marko94
02-10-13, 19:36
There was huge Gallia and Britannia too by Atlantic.

Oh, so tell me now why Greece is not Latinized, although in center of Roman Empire.
There are many examples from Roman empire that it was not that easy for people to switch to other language, many resisted to the end. I can bet that people were talking Roman in Illyrian cities much faster than in villages, and that in some secluded villages and mountains illyrian language survived till end of empire. Keep in mind that there was no national program or classes to learn Roman, and that learning of it was voluntary.

When the Roman Empire conquered a territory decided to found the "roman colonies".
What is the meaning of the colonies?
Simple, served to "latinized" local populations.
No word yet on if it was forced Latinization, but definitely in the Latin culture has had strong impact in the local population.
If the Croats, Bosnians and Serbs are "descendants" of the Illyrians then I wonder where the traces of Latin culture?
If there has been a little migration of the Slavs in the Balkans then because they speak a Slavic language? and not a illyrian language?

"L'albanese appartiene alla famiglia linguistica (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famiglie_linguistiche)indoeuropea (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoeuropeo), come provato nel 1854 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854) dal filologo tedesco Franz Bopp (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Bopp).
Il linguista italiano Matteo Bartoli (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matteo_Bartoli) in forza della grande presenza di elementi e parole comuni al latino riteneva che la lingua albanese fosse una lingua in parte originariamente neolatina (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingue_romanze), per cui la classificò tra le "parzialmente" lingue romanze balcaniche (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingue_romanze_balcaniche)[21] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_albanese#cite_note-21)[22] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_albanese#cite_note-22)."

Ike
02-10-13, 21:05
From time to time, I hear that Albaninas were Illyrians, then I hear they were Dardanians, then someone is sure they were Pelasgians, than later that they must be Thracians.... If you people have no better facts to support these theories it would be useful if you just quit. Yeah we all know those thories, and we all know they're possible, but wiring same things again and again with nothing new is just exhausting.


Albanians dont call themselves albanian in their language. They call themselves shqipetar and their language shqip. It is safe to assume that the albanoi were romanised illyrians. Albanoi spoke latin. Albanians speak shqip. The descendants of albanoi have to be latin speakers. Albania is an exonym. Albanians call themselves shqipetar. Whoever decided to call albania albania was both wrong and right. He was right in calling it albania because that was the land of the albanoi, but they were wrong to assume that shqipetars had anything to do with the albanoi. Albanoi spoke latin, shqipetars speak shqip. .

1. It is not safe to assume that Albanoi were romanized Illyrians. To assume that, we would have to know that Albanoi were Illyrians, and we know not much about either.
2. How do you know if Tribali, Bessoi and Illyrians wasn't also an exonym?
3. Are you suggesting that todays Albanians were Illyrians, but todays Shqipetars are not?




The descendants of the romanised albanoi have to be speakers of latin derived language. The albanoi were mentioned in 150 BC, 318 years after illyria was conquered by rome. Thats plenty of time for romanisation to have occured. The albanoi is clearly a latin word and it clearly points that they were people who were romanised. But i will tell you what means something in albanian. Have you heard of a thracian tribe called triballi? Well, it means something in albanian. Its made up of 2 words, tri + balli. Tri means three and balli means forehead or front. It basically means three forehead. And im sure you have heard of bessoi which means believe in albanian

1. Tribali could be connected with something on almost every language, be it English, Latin or Hindu. Bessoi also. If you delete Greek suffix -os (which in plural is -oi) you get bes which means rage in Serbian.
Theories like these won't lead us anywhere.

Garrick
02-10-13, 21:47
Have you heard of a thracian tribe called triballi? Well, it means something in albanian. Its made up of 2 words, tri + balli. Tri means three and balli means forehead or front. It basically means three forehead.

Do you know historic facts about Triballi?

You can see in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-13)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-14)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-15)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-16)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-17) Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-JSTOR1-18)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-20)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-22) For example, Niketas Choniates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niketas_Choniates) (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-23) or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrios_Chalkondyles) (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-24) or Mehmed the Conqueror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_the_Conqueror) when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-25)


Triballi are Serbs.

Eustathius, bishop of Thessaloniki (in XIII century), when describing Serbian Grand Zupan Stefan Nemanja's arrival in Thessaloniki, title him as a "great archont of Tribals." Theodore Metohit for King Milutin says "the ruler of Tribals." Alexius Lambin called Milutin "Archont of Mizans and Tribals." Theodore Hirtakin Serbia called "Tribalia." ...

You can see Maciamo highlights that Thracians were I2a carriers (Serbian main haplogroup):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

Do you know that Geg Albanians almost don't have I2a haplogroup and it is reason why they are different from all peoples of the Balkans?

For example Tosk Albanians have over 20% I2a.

FBS
02-10-13, 21:59
There was huge Gallia and Britannia too by Atlantic.

Oh, so tell me now why Greece is not Latinized, although in center of Roman Empire.
There are many examples from Roman empire that it was not that easy for people to switch to other language, many resisted to the end. I can bet that people were talking Roman in Illyrian cities much faster than in villages, and that in some secluded villages and mountains illyrian language survived till end of empire. Keep in mind that there was no national program or classes to learn Roman, and that learning of it was voluntary.
I agree. We have it confirmed during the ottoman reign, only the cities that had the administrative importance were "turkicized" even though people mostly became bi-lingual and as soon as were freed continued with the old language, even though some kept speaking turkish as symbol of an "urban status". Rural and highlanders never spoke turkish. My predecessors highlanders did not speak a word of Turkish, while my distant cousins of the administrative centers still can speak turkish. There is a town in Kosovo though that never spoke turkish, they resisted it completely. So the empires like Rome did not care what language was spoken in the rural or secluded mountainous areas, so the larger patches of the local population languages were preserved, even those who spoke latin in public might have spoken their language at home. Among Albanians mothers that stayed at home were the ones who preserved the language as well as the religion, especially if the offspring were not mainstream educated.

FBS
02-10-13, 22:21
@vetus
I have been doing research for a long time now of the names that refer to Albanians (us). What I have found out is that all the names have one same meaning - "people of the highland". Alp - is mountain, Alb - mountain. "Albanian" has nothing to do with white, that is a too simplistic and nonscientific explanation. Old Albanian name, the endonym, was Arben in Gheg dialect. Albanian has some celtic influences and I found out that "ben" in celtic means mountain, like Ben Nevis. So Arben is Highlander. Dalmatia, I consider that is an old predecessor of Albanian version, again in Gheg, Malcia. Mat, matia, mal, malcia, has the same meaning in different local dialects of Albanian. So Albanians called themselves people of the heights, highlanders. Now the endonym Shqiptar is of a recent history that started to be used after Scanderbegs death. It can be due to the flag, and it is convenient since the eagle lives in the mountains, so it was an "evolution" in the memory of Scanderbeg.

For the record, I am not a professional linguist.

FBS
02-10-13, 22:39
Who are Albanians? Mixture of Illyrian, Dardan (a bit different from Illyrian probably, similar but not the same), celtic addition, pelasgic substrate and offshoot of Dorics. This is what I came up so far. It is unrealistic to simply dismiss that Albanians have no part of Illyrian legacy in them. What brought and kept them together is amazing since it is easy to be a member of asuccessful nation/state that has conquered others but to create an identity and keep it for centuries under so many aggressors and foreign reign is very exciting to me. It is easy to be a member of the huge and powerful nation but to be so different and few in numbers among other nations that share among them a lot in common but not so much with Albanians, hm...it makes you think.

Garrick
03-10-13, 00:51
@vetus
I have been doing research for a long time now of the names that refer to Albanians (us). What I have found out is that all the names have one same meaning - "people of the highland". Alp - is mountain, Alb - mountain. "Albanian" has nothing to do with white, that is a too simplistic and nonscientific explanation. Old Albanian name, the endonym, was Arben in Gheg dialect. Albanian has some celtic influences and I found out that "ben" in celtic means mountain, like Ben Nevis. So Arben is Highlander. Dalmatia, I consider that is an old predecessor of Albanian version, again in Gheg, Malcia. Mat, matia, mal, malcia, has the same meaning in different local dialects of Albanian. So Albanians called themselves people of the heights, highlanders. Now the endonym Shqiptar is of a recent history that started to be used after Scanderbegs death. It can be due to the flag, and it is convenient since the eagle lives in the mountains, so it was an "evolution" in the memory of Scanderbeg.

For the record, I am not a professional linguist.

It is possible that land of Albanian ancestry was Dalmatia, (maybe still and Istria).

Illyrians were different tribes, and Illyria and Illyricum were geographic terms. Illyrian tribes with dominant E1b1b1a2 are possible ancestors of Geg Albanians, but Illyrian tribes with dominant I2a/R1a are possible ancestors Serbs/Bosniacs/Croats.

Sile
03-10-13, 08:15
Because have change term.
From Arbaresh have change to "Shqiptare".
How you explain that?
I think the name "Albania" was given by us in 1400 or 1500.
I think they were the Venetians.

In Venetian, Alba means the Italian word for Pioppo, which means the English word Poplar, which can mean Soft Timber.
IF the venetians named anyone there it was most likely to say forest dwellers....but...Venetians where not around when the Albanoi name emerged in 100AD.
So, the name either came from the latin Albus which means white or ??

Considering that the illyrian language vanished centuries before the Romans arrived due to Celtic immigration, then I do not know what you are saying.

The logical people who hid in the mountains where the ancient Dardanians, who where attacked on 3 sides at the same time for their fertile lands, the illyrians ( one tribe ) attacked from the north, the Thracians from the east and the Macedonians from the south. the dardanians fled into the mountains and became the original ( unsure IMO ) Albanians , while the nation of Albania became Albanians over time.
The Roman surveyors noted no albanians on their survey of modern albania while looking for mine of gold, iron, copper, silver etc etc

Sile
03-10-13, 08:19
Do you know historic facts about Triballi?

You can see in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-13)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-14)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-15)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-16)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-17) Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-JSTOR1-18)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-20)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-22) For example, Niketas Choniates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niketas_Choniates) (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-23) or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrios_Chalkondyles) (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-24) or Mehmed the Conqueror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_the_Conqueror) when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#cite_note-25)


Triballi are Serbs.

Eustathius, bishop of Thessaloniki (in XIII century), when describing Serbian Grand Zupan Stefan Nemanja's arrival in Thessaloniki, title him as a "great archont of Tribals." Theodore Metohit for King Milutin says "the ruler of Tribals." Alexius Lambin called Milutin "Archont of Mizans and Tribals." Theodore Hirtakin Serbia called "Tribalia." ...

You can see Maciamo highlights that Thracians were I2a carriers (Serbian main haplogroup):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

Do you know that Geg Albanians almost don't have I2a haplogroup and it is reason why they are different from all peoples of the Balkans?

For example Tosk Albanians have over 20% I2a.

triballi, bessi, maedi, moesians where not illyrians, these tribes are too far south to be illyrians. These tribes are thracian

vetus
03-10-13, 12:15
At Nobody1

Yes, thats what im suggesting. From a linguistic point of view istriots, istro-romanians and aromanians(vlach) are the true descendants of illyrians. The only reason we know about illyrians is because some greek and roman historians decided to write about them. Had they not written anything about illyrians, we would have never know that they existed. But if we are to believe these historians, we must believe everything they wrote about them, not just some part of the story. They also wrote that rome went to war with illyria, called the illyrian wars. There were 3 wars, ending in 168BC with rome conquering illyria. After this illyrians started gradually losing their illyrian language and began speaking latin, vulgar latin specifically, because thats what their conquerors the romans spoke at that time, a process called romanisation. Since illyrians didnt write their language, they left us no written record of their language, so we may not know what their language was like. But what we do know is that eventually they lost their language and started speaking latin. Based on this, the descendants of illyrians would have to be speakers of a latin derived language

Ike
03-10-13, 13:18
From a linguistic point of view istriots, istro-romanians and aromanians(vlach) are the true descendants of illyrians.
How did you draw that line? What things do we know about languages of Illyrians and Istriots that would prove that. Could you please elaborate more?



The only reason we know about illyrians is because some greek and roman historians decided to write about them. Had they not written anything about illyrians, we would have never know that they existed.
Haven't Romans not existed to wage wars with Illyrians, maybe they would have existed right now.



But if we are to believe these historians, we must believe everything they wrote about them, not just some part of the story.
Wrong. Even a reliable historians made mistakes. Everything must be triple checked with other sources and to concur with the archaeological findings. Many misapprehensions can be found in the writings of old historians.



They also wrote that rome went to war with illyria, called the illyrian wars. There were 3 wars, ending in 168BC with rome conquering illyria. After this illyrians started gradually losing their illyrian language and began speaking latin, vulgar latin specifically, because thats what their conquerors the romans spoke at that time, a process called romanisation. Since illyrians didnt write their language, they left us no written record of their language, so we may not know what their language was like.

How do you know Illyric tribes didn't write their language?


But what we do know is that eventually they lost their language and started speaking latin. Based on this, the descendants of illyrians would have to be speakers of a latin derived language
We could guess all of that, only if we assume that there was people called Illyrians and language called Illyrian.

Marko94
03-10-13, 17:05
In Venetian, Alba means the Italian word for Pioppo, which means the English word Poplar, which can mean Soft Timber.
IF the venetians named anyone there it was most likely to say forest dwellers....but...Venetians where not around when the Albanoi name emerged in 100AD.
So, the name either came from the latin Albus which means white or ??

Considering that the illyrian language vanished centuries before the Romans arrived due to Celtic immigration, then I do not know what you are saying.

The logical people who hid in the mountains where the ancient Dardanians, who where attacked on 3 sides at the same time for their fertile lands, the illyrians ( one tribe ) attacked from the north, the Thracians from the east and the Macedonians from the south. the dardanians fled into the mountains and became the original ( unsure IMO ) Albanians , while the nation of Albania became Albanians over time.
The Roman surveyors noted no albanians on their survey of modern albania while looking for mine of gold, iron, copper, silver etc etc

I wanted to say "if they are the descendants of illyrian because they have lost the culture latin with a small Slavic migration?".
Already in 1420 conquered the coast of Montenegro, and gave him the name "Venetian Albania".

Garrick
03-10-13, 23:36
triballi, bessi, maedi, moesians where not illyrians, these tribes are too far south to be illyrians. These tribes are thracian

Yes, Thracian.

But someone linked Triballi and Albanians linguistic and I answered.

vetus
04-10-13, 11:07
How did you draw that line? What things do we know about languages of Illyrians and Istriots that would prove that. Could you please elaborate more?


Haven't Romans not existed to wage wars with Illyrians, maybe they would have existed right now.



Wrong. Even a reliable historians made mistakes. Everything must be triple checked with other sources and to concur with the archaeological findings. Many misapprehensions can be found in the writings of old historians.



How do you know Illyric tribes didn't write their language?


We could guess all of that, only if we assume that there was people called Illyrians and language called Illyrian.

Some of your questions have been already answered by my previous posts.
Like i have said so many times we dont know much about the illyrian language because it is dead now. Illyrians spoke illyrian before being conquered by the romans. After being conquered by the romans, illyrians speak latin. The new language of the illyrians became latin. After they become romanised, from that time forward illyrians are latin speakers. And istriot is a latin language spoken by romanised people. Do you see the connection?

If romans had not gone to war with illyria, illyrian language would still be probably around today.

If they wrote their language we would have records or inscriptions of their language. But theres none. Whereas people like the greeks and the romans who wrote their language, theres plenty of inscriptions.

MOESAN
04-10-13, 15:02
According to Bernard SERGENT «Les Indo-Européens»

albanese: first texts: second half of 15°century

the local (Albania) placenames have not an albanian phonetical evolution, but more slavic – the Albanians would have come in ancient southern Illyricum inly after Slavs and their language would show more affinities with daco-mysian than to thracian language; some grammtical peculiarities of today romance language of Romania show too some albanian affinity, as some words – the same with phonetical evolution of some loanwords -
so albanian, spite some links with what we know about ancient illyrian language, would be closer to the language of ancient Dacians: the affinities with illyrian are the result of an origin of all of them in a previous great I-Ean group made of albanian, illyrian, daco-mysian and thracian (plus some minor other languages faded out long ago)
what we know about illyrian is very tiny: only by some personal- and place-names! Old Illyricum was a creation of the roman empire, administrative, not ethnical – the North of this province spoke romance languages akin to venitian (ancient: the Veneti people's one, not the modern Veneto one), apprently -
on what we know based on so little material, it seems illyrian language (also very close to messapian) was spoken by tribes like Taulentians, Enkhelai, Piraei, around the northwestern greek fronteers, in a zone where Katicic fund full of anthroponymes corresponding well enough – as you came northwards, this personal names losted weight, replaced more an more by personal names close to venetic ones...
shortly said, albanian would be the language (of the same family, but more «nephew» or «far cousin» than «son» of illyrian, and spoken by a population I see firstable settled in central Balkans, survived in mountainous regions, and coming after to live in the region of their «far parents» after a Slavs «ebb»...

vetus
04-10-13, 17:37
Keep in mind that there were no public schools nor TV to teach locals Latin quickly. Majority of Illyrians lived in Villages, but only in cities they would have some contacts with Roman officers or traders. Learning a new language by whole population was a very long process, counted in many hundreds of years. You can find many examples in today's europe where different ethnic groups speak their language, in spite of being surrounded by official language for centuries. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine that any language could survive till today, especially when it was isolated in Mountainous area.

Are you saying that some illyrians were romanised and some were able to escape romanisation?

Garrick
04-10-13, 17:40
Old Illyricum was a creation of the roman empire, administrative, not ethnical

Yes.

It is big mistake when someone thinks that whole Illyricum was inhabited of the same tribes. There were various tribes. In some tribes dominated carriers of I2a/R1a. In another tribes dominated E1b1b1a2. Also possible in some another tribes dominated carriers some different haplogroups. It would be interesting to conduct researches haplogroups of bones and we would have much more of knowledge.

For me it is the biggest mistery is lack I2a haplogroup in Geg Albanians. All peoples of Balkans have significant I2a (mostly Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats). Even Tosk Albanians have significant share of I2a haplogroup. Only Geg Albanians do not have.

If I2a was main haplogroup of Illiyrians than Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

My opinion is that Illyrians were not a homogenous group but collection of various unrelated tribes. Consequently not all Illyrians spoke same language and the question is whether unrelated tribes are considered themselves as the Illyrians.

Ike
04-10-13, 22:31
Some of your questions have been already answered by my previous posts.
Like i have said so many times we dont know much about the illyrian language because it is dead now. Illyrians spoke illyrian before being conquered by the romans. After being conquered by the romans, illyrians speak latin. The new language of the illyrians became latin. After they become romanised, from that time forward illyrians are latin speakers. And istriot is a latin language spoken by romanised people. Do you see the connection?

No, I don't. Those are all hypotheses based on our current knowledge, which is clearly insufficient. I don't even know why do you bother to draw conclusions. What proofs do you have that Illyrians existed? OK, they were written about in some old Greek and Roman scripts. But so are Amazon women.


If they wrote their language we would have records or inscriptions of their language. But theres none. Whereas people like the greeks and the romans who wrote their language, theres plenty of inscriptions.

'We have none' is different than 'there is none'.

MOESAN
05-10-13, 00:43
Yes.

It is big mistake when someone thinks that whole Illyricum was inhabited of the same tribes. There were various tribes. In some tribes dominated carriers of I2a/R1a. In another tribes dominated E1b1b1a2. Also possible in some another tribes dominated carriers some different haplogroups. It would be interesting to conduct researches haplogroups of bones and we would have much more of knowledge.

For me it is the biggest mistery is lack I2a haplogroup in Geg Albanians. All peoples of Balkans have significant I2a (mostly Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats). Even Tosk Albanians have significant share of I2a haplogroup. Only Geg Albanians do not have.

If I2a was main haplogroup of Illiyrians than Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

My opinion is that Illyrians were not a homogenous group but collection of various unrelated tribes. Consequently not all Illyrians spoke same language and the question is whether unrelated tribes are considered themselves as the Illyrians.

Maybe... My report concerned language: but ethny long ago yet is more linked to language and other cultural traits (plus shared life events) than genetic traits, even if the more you put markers (genetics amid them) the more the ethny is caracterized - concerning genetics, I'm not sure at all Illyrians were at first Y-I2a1 -
this HG were (and is yet) strong in the Carpathians highlands and some of its bearers could have (surely) been taken in Illyrians moves, but I suppose Illyrians had some others HGs (maybe Y-R1a + local Y-E1b and Y-J2 of some subclade), why not some Y-R1b and Y-G2a? they are a late ethnic composition and they herited as other S-E Europe "I-Eans" local elements of Neolithical times (already mixt populations as Cucuteni-Tripolje and earlier ones around the Romania-Bulgaria mergins) - I think nevertheless Y-I2a1 and Y-R1a were very strong, if the phenotypes I think of were truly the dominant one among their "genuine" elite - with time, as you say, their groups could have become very mixed...
- I'm not sure their Y-I2a1 were of Dalmatia or Dinaric Alps - I look more on the Romania side (lack of detailed subclades as very often)... just bets without any proof, helas...

kamani
06-10-13, 02:25
For me it is the biggest mistery is lack I2a haplogroup in Geg Albanians. All peoples of Balkans have significant I2a (mostly Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats). Even Tosk Albanians have significant share of I2a haplogroup. Only Geg Albanians do not have.


Gegs also have very little R1a. So they lack I2a+R1a, the 2 main south-slavic hg-s. If they're not Illyrian, than the came from Mars, because everybody else all around them for thousands of kilometers has a lot more R1a.

Ike
06-10-13, 03:14
I suppose Ghegs are of Greek origin (Aeolians?).

Garrick
06-10-13, 20:54
Gegs also have very little R1a. So they lack I2a+R1a, the 2 main south-slavic hg-s. If they're not Illyrian, than the came from Mars, because everybody else all around them for thousands of kilometers has a lot more R1a.

You can see, a lot of members of this forum thinks that Illyrians were I2a plus another haplogrups.

I write that terms Illyria, Illyricum and Illyrians only mean geographical terms. Illyrians probably were members of different tribes. Groups of tribes were not related with another groups of tribes. Probably different Illyrian tribes spoke different languages. One tribes were at war with another tribes. Etc.

My opinion is that term Illyrians for all tribes in Illyria or Illyricum is wrong.

If Illyrians have roots in Egypt (there are such theories) then it is possible that original Illyrians were E1b1b1a2. It means Greeks called wrong Illyrian tribes who were not Illyrians. Tribes whose members were carriers of I2a/R1a (about 70% of whole Illyria) were not Illyrians! Greeks (and later Romans) made mistake, and we are all now in confusion.

There are significant indicators that original Illyrians are from Egypt. It would be good to focus researches in this direction.

But if original Illyrians didn't live in 70% or more in territory of Illyria, who lived? Greeks probably made mistake and we today should correct this error. Because by all odds about 70% inhabitants of Illyria, that is, numerous tribes, probably spoke some variants South Slavic languages.

vetus
07-10-13, 10:40
I have found a thracian tribe called dii. Di in albanian means to know. There is also an illyrian tribe called kinambroi. It literally means you have defended us. Mbroi means defended in albanian. Na mbroi means defended us. Ki na mbroi means you have defended us. I think the word ki would be in the gegh dialect. In tosk it would be ke. Im not sure if ki is in gegh dialect but if somebody who speaks the gegh dialect would confirm it, that would be great. Its the same thing like triballi, made up of tri which means three in albanian and balli which means forehead or front. In the gegh dialect three is tri and in tosk it is tre. Both triballi and kinambroi are in the gegh style

FBS
07-10-13, 13:51
Reading the myths of Malcia (that I consider Dalmatia) about the Heroes that are known as Kreshniks, (in Serbian is wrongfully translated into Krajishnici linking them to Krajina) while Kreshnik means “the tough one, fearless one”. Kreshta is “crest” and “ridge” – again linked to mountains.

The myths of these Kreshniks mention that they live in Kladusa and Jutbina (today known as Velika Kladusa and Udbina in B&H and in Croatia). So, a part of today’s Gheg is from the regions of Dalmatia (not all Gheg speaking Albanians are highlanders). Since those highlanders and other lowland tribes understood each other means that they were sharing the same culture especially interchangeable language, therefore when the highlanders were pushed by Slavs from Dalmatia region towards today’s Montenegro seaside, Kosovo and North Albania means that they found common culture therefore could stick to each other more then to their Slav neighbours. So the Slavs contributed in creating an identity between those remaining old Illyric tribes that were loose in the beginning but who realized that they might be exterminated (culturally) if they do not stick together. Of course this was a long process since there were a lot inter-clan fights. This effect was not so strong by Romans nor by Greeks since Illyrians had similarities with them and there were a certain respect since they considered one another as autochthonous and not as newcomers, therefore those clans did not feel as threatened before. That is why the assimilation could not have happened completely, there is a huge influence but not a total one by Latins.

In order to understand the Albanians one should really know their old regional myths and especially old language which is quite archaic. Basing the theories in today’s Albanian is a complete futility because the official Albanian has lost a huge part of its old idiom. The Enver Hoxha politics and imposing of the Tosk dialect has created a big mess.

Ike
07-10-13, 14:10
@vetus
Kinambroi is a Greek term Κινάμβροι. In nominative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_grammar_(tables)#suffixes_.28normal. 29) you have plural for -ος that is -οi.
You can't use Greek suffixes and explain it in Albanian. Even Albani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Albani) is spelled Ἀλβανοί in Greek.

@FBS
Kresta (http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresta) is Slavic root (probably from PIE (http://indo-european.info/dictionary-translator/translate/English/Indo-European/?q=crest)).

FBS
07-10-13, 14:14
The highland Albanians are carriers of EV13 and possibly I. J2b2 is urban and lowland marker for Albanians. R1b is agricultural marker. EV-13 and I among Albanians represents the landlords, traders and fighters (pirates & mercenaries) and herders. J2b2 are the producers/craftsmen and the intellectuals. R1b lived in the lowlands, who produced wheat, honey, beer, fruits and vegetables. Highlanders always traded with the lowlands and they always created a nearby trading center (terg, pazar). The pirates of Teuta have been the E-V13. E-V13 has always preferred the heights near the sea or rivers. Even today Ulcinians (Ulqinakët) consider the real ones only those who live in the hilltop, old fortified city, next to the sea, everybody else is a newcomer to them. River, in one of the Illyrian dialects, is Dri - Drini i Dardhë, Drini i Zi, Drini, Drina.

To draw a conclusion, the Illyrian core were E-V13 (old substrate), J2b2 brought by Cadmus among encheley, who became a serpent with his wife Harmonia and he, among others, fathered Illyros and Celt. So R1b is the Celt addition, afterwards. And we know that Dardanians who were situated mostly in the today's Drenica region were also mixed with Celts, so for me Drenica should have a high percentage of R1b (L23) compared to other Albanians.

Dardanians worshiped the sun, and in Kosovo is still to this day a tradition to make a national dish "Fli" in the shape of sun. Fli in Albanian is "sacrifice". The addition by Illyros from Cadmus is the worshiping of the serpent who is considered the "House protector", and every house has one serpent according to the myth - Cadmus & Harmonia protectors of the Illyrians?

Ike
07-10-13, 14:35
Drina is also river in Serbia. It's naming is coherent with other rivers like Don, Dniester, Dneper, Danube, probably by Schytians (http://stevenmcollins.com/audios/Lost_Empires/img46.html). They were probably of R1a origin.

FBS
07-10-13, 14:50
Dri means "flow" and "winding", I do not think that it has anything in common with the rivers that you mention apart of the letter "D". I know that Drina is river in Serbia, precisely.

Ike
07-10-13, 15:09
You know exactly that it is not just D, but it is DN.

A goddess Danu is attested in the Rigveda, and also the river names Danube, Dniester, Dnieper and Don derive from the name. It is PIE root.

FBS
07-10-13, 16:12
DN is not the same as DRI and DRI has nothing to do with any gods, it simply is descriptive. Humans prior to first civilizations did not give names to the rivers and many other things, they were simply descriptive names.

Ike
07-10-13, 16:56
Dry, drain, drought, all from the same (http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=drANa&link=m) IE root drana which means run, flown.
I don't see how can you get closer than that to rivers like Drina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drina), Drava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drava) and Drin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drin_(river)).

Even Irish have goddess Danu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)). "The theonym is of PIE age, and seems to have denoted a water goddess in origin."

Garrick
07-10-13, 22:53
So R1b is the Celt addition, afterwards. And we know that Dardanians who were situated mostly in the today's Drenica region were also mixed with Celts, so for me Drenica should have a high percentage of R1b (L23) compared to other Albanians.


Armenian, Anatolian, Albanian ... branch R1b-ht35 is not Celtic. Almost all Albanians R1b are carriers of R1b-ht35.

You can see Maciamo's maps for Celtic branches: R1b S28/U152 doesn't exist in Geg Albanians, R1b-L21 (S145) doesn't exist too, etc.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

Albanians, especially Geg Albanians have nothing with Celts.

Geg Albanians are mostly E1b1b1a2 with mix J2, R1b-ht35 and several haplogroups to a lesser extent.

Origin this haplogroups is North Africa, Middle East and Caucasus/Anatolia respectively.

Garrick
07-10-13, 23:17
To draw a conclusion, the Illyrian core were E-V13 (old substrate)

I think it can be true, for original Illyrians (of course not for all the tribes in geographic Illyria, carriers of I2a, R1a and another haplogroups, who Greeks called wrong with generic name "Illyrians").

And there is explanation for word Ilir, Illyr, Illyrians.

In Cushitic languages Il, Ila or Ili, that means the eye, is associated with old Deity Horus in Upper Egypt as well as meaning “to make” or “to do”. Maybe E carriers when they came to the Balkans are still cultivated the cult of Horus and may still used the word Ili or similar for the eye and therefore are called humans of eye (cult), ie. Iliryans,


In order to understand the Albanians one should really know their old regional myths and especially old language which is quite archaic. Basing the theories in today’s Albanian is a complete futility because the official Albanian has lost a huge part of its old idiom. The Enver Hoxha politics and imposing of the Tosk dialect has created a big mess.

Today's Albanians (from Tosk language) has some Afro-Asiatic words. These words are Egyptian, Cushitic, Berber etc. But Geg language had more Afro-Asiatic words. Maybe, it was one of reason why communist Enver Hoxha was adopted Tosk language, instead Geg language, that was much more widespread.

FBS
07-10-13, 23:51
Greeks had it right, it was the Rome that messed things up. Ill, yll, hyll is a star, so Illyrian and Hellenes had the same meaning but in different languages, which at the time it made a lot of sense, glorification of oneself "People of the sun or of the star sun". And the Serbs still claim it today (evnthough in this age does not make any sense) to be the pople from heavens or entitled by heavens so it is very logical that ages ago Illyrians would call themselves people of the stars. For me the greek mythology explaines very well the creation of Illyrians and the role of Cadmus in their genesis.

Regarding your knowledge of Albanian, you have proved in the thread that you started regarding Albanian and Berber that it is very poor, so just do not continue with it, since it is just a repetition of same mistakes.

Garrick
08-10-13, 15:00
Greeks had it right, it was the Rome that messed things up. Ill, yll, hyll is a star, so Illyrian and Hellenes had the same meaning but in different languages, which at the time it made a lot of sense, glorification of oneself "People of the sun or of the star sun". And the Serbs still claim it today (evnthough in this age does not make any sense) to be the pople from heavens or entitled by heavens so it is very logical that ages ago Illyrians would call themselves people of the stars. For me the greek mythology explaines very well the creation of Illyrians and the role of Cadmus in their genesis.

Regarding your knowledge of Albanian, you have proved in the thread that you started regarding Albanian and Berber that it is very poor, so just do not continue with it, since it is just a repetition of same mistakes.

It is not good that one member negatively qualifies to another member. You can give your arguments, I have a lot my arguments. And I use many sources, some of them are Albanians.

Carriers of E haplogroup, Albanians, Egyptian, Cushites, Berbers etc. have common roots. It is haplogroup E-M215/E-M35. From this haplogroup proceeds all subclades: E-V68 (of which ocurred haplogroups today's E-V12, E-V13, E-V22) and E-Z827 (of which occured haplogroup E-M81, etc.).

You can see Cushites (carriers of haplogroup E-M35), Egyptians (carriers of haplogroup E-V12, E-V22, etc.), and Albanians (carriers of haplogroup E-V13) have same root, as Berbers, who also originate of E-M35, but compared to E-V68 are another brotherly peoples.

You can see, all of these peoples belong Hamitic race:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic)This is important to understand when we talk about original Illyrians (dominantly E-haplogroup).

A lot of tribes who Greeks called wrong "Illyrians" were carriers of I2a, R1a and another haplogroups, today we learn that they were Illyrians but it is only misnomer.

Garrick
08-10-13, 15:10
Therefore in future I'm thinking to use two terms: Hamitic (original) Illyrians and Dinaric (Slavic) Illyrians.

FBS
08-10-13, 15:50
It is not good that one member negatively qualifies to another member. You can give your arguments, I have a lot my arguments. And I use many sources, some of them are Albanians.

Carriers of E haplogroup, Albanians, Egyptian, Cushites, Berbers etc. have common roots. It is haplogroup E-M215/E-M35. From this haplogroup proceeds all subclades: E-V68 (of which ocurred haplogroups today's E-V12, E-V13, E-V22) and E-Z827 (of which occured haplogroup E-M81, etc.).

You can see Cushites (carriers of haplogroup E-M35), Egyptians (carriers of haplogroup E-V12, E-V22, etc.), and Albanians (carriers of haplogroup E-V13) have same root, as Berbers, who also originate of E-M35, but compared to E-V68 are another brotherly peoples.

You can see, all of these peoples belong Hamitic race:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic)This is important to understand when we talk about original Illyrians (dominantly E-haplogroup).

A lot of tribes who Greeks called wrong "Illyrians" were carriers of I2a, R1a and another haplogroups, today we learn that they were Illyrians but it is only misnomer.
So according to you this is true: In Sergi's theory, the Mediterraneans were the "greatest race in the world", and had expanded north and south from the Horn of Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_of_Africa), creating superior civilizations.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic#cite_note-edith-2)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic#cite_note-aar-8) Sergi described the original European peoples as "Eurafricans". The ancient Greeks and Italians were born from "Afro-Mediterraneans" who migrated from western Asia and had originally spoken a Hamitic language before the advent of Indo-European languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages). Qouted from your link.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic

FBS
08-10-13, 15:53
Therefore in future I'm thinking to use two terms: Hamitic (original) Illyrians and Dinaric (Slavic) Illyrians.
:useless: hilarious...

Garrick
08-10-13, 16:14
hilarious...

No. It is only way to avoid confusion which inadvertently made by Ancient Greeks.

You can see most of this forum thought that Illyrians were I2a carriers. And scientists write books that Illyrians have origins in peoples of former Yugoslavia. They do not make mistake because a large number of tribes that are considered Illyrians were carriers of I2a, R1a etc.

Dinaric Illyrians can be correct terminology for these tribes.

Original Illyrian tribes around Epirus, South Adriatic sea, etc. were E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) and they have Hamitic origin.

Hamitic Illyrians can be correct terminology for these tribes.

Knowing haplogroups and different origin we can precisely call these two groups of tribes and confusion is gone.

vetus
08-10-13, 17:55
@FBS

The name albanoi has a meaning in aromanian(vlach). Its made up of the words alba + noi. Alba means white and noi means we. Alba is feminine. Alba would be used in a phrase like 'feata alba', meaning that white girl. Albu is the masculine. It would be used in phrase like 'ficioru albu', meaning that white guy. And alb would be used in a phrase like 'est mult alb', meaning i am very white, or in a phrase like 'esti mult alb', meaning he is very white. Alb means white. They all derive from the classical latin word for white albus. Albanoi has no meaning in albanian. Alb doesnt mean mountain in albanian. The albanian word for mountain is mal. The albanoi tribe were romanised people located in presend day albania, mentioned in 150AD, 318 years after illyria was conquered, plenty of time for romanisation to have occured. Theres no connection between the albanoi tribe and albanians
Some people believe that albanians are descended from a group of illyrians who somehow managed to not get romanised, while the rest were romanised. They believe the location where this group must have preserved their language is present day kosovo. Yet you talk about albanians being from dalmatia. Dalmatia is on the coast of the adriatic sea. The lands on the coast were the first to be romanised. Theyre the closest to rome. They were romanised the most

vetus
08-10-13, 17:59
Therefore in future I'm thinking to use two terms: Hamitic (original) Illyrians and Dinaric (Slavic) Illyrians.

Theres no such thing as Slavic illyrians. Slavs came to the balkans in 500AD. Theres no connection between Slavic and illyrian

Nobody1
08-10-13, 18:38
Strabo - Book VII/V
among the Illyrians the Autariatae, Ardiaei, and Dardanii, and among the Thracians the Triballi; that is, they were reduced in warfare by one another at first and then later by the Macedonians and the Romans.

The area of Teuta/Τεύτα and Gentius/Γένθιος was the core Illyrian area of the Piracy and Power - and later of the Roman Invasions;
This area lies directly opposite of the Iapyges area in Apulia of the Daunii, Messappii and Peucetii which are pos. also Illyrians;

So the Illyrians of the Autariatae, Ardiaei, and Dardanii could very well be the Indo-European ancestors of the Albanians;

Ike
08-10-13, 19:46
Theres no such thing as Slavic illyrians. Slavs came to the balkans in 500AD. Theres no connection between Slavic and illyrian

Why are we talking with people like this? He didn't even bother to read the main pages....

FBS
08-10-13, 19:57
@FBS

The name albanoi has a meaning in aromanian(vlach). Its made up of the words alba + noi. Alba means white and noi means we. Alba is feminine. Alba would be used in a phrase like 'feata alba', meaning that white girl. Albu is the masculine. It would be used in phrase like 'ficioru albu', meaning that white guy. And alb would be used in a phrase like 'est mult alb', meaning i am very white, or in a phrase like 'esti must alb', meaning he is very white. Alb means white. They all derive from the classical latin word for white albus. Albanoi has no meaning in albanian. Alb doesnt mean mountain in albanian. The albanian word for mountain is mal. The albanoi tribe were romanised people located in presend day albania, mentioned in 150AD, 318 years after illyria was conquered, plenty of time for romanisation to have occured. Theres no connection between the albanoi tribe and albanians
Some people believe that albanians are descended from a group of illyrians who somehow managed to not get romanised, while the rest were romanised. They believe the location where this group must have preserved their language is present day kosovo. Yet you talk about albanians being from dalmatia. Dalmatia is on the coast of the adriatic sea. The lands on the coast were the first to be romanised. Theyre the closed to rome. They were romanised the most
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Albania
I am pasting the text here: Medieval Latin name of the country called by its inhabitants Shqipëri (literally "land of eagles," from shqiponje "eagle"), from Medieval Greek Albania, possibly from a pre-IE word *alb "hill" (also proposed as the source of Alps) or from the PIE root *albho- "white" (see alb). Roman Albania was a land by the Caspian Sea (modern Daghestan); in English Albania was occasionally also a name for Scotland. End of quote.

I did not claim that alb or alp are Albanian words, I said that it means mountain/heights an I consider it an exonyme. Malcor & Arben are old endonyms and both mean the highlanders, I claim that Albania is actually a sort of translation. I think that Illyrian is also an exonyme.

Garrick
08-10-13, 20:36
Theres no such thing as Slavic illyrians. Slavs came to the balkans in 500AD. Theres no connection between Slavic and illyrian

We can speak about it. According new scientific findings R1a exist in Balkan about 11.000-12.000 years, and I2a is much older in Balkans compare to 5-6 century. Researches of haplogroups were demolish the myth that R1a and I2a appeared in the Balkans jus before 1.400 years. Now it is very likely that a lot of Illyrian tribes were carriers I2a/R1a, Thracians were carriers of I2a/R1a too, etc. These facts are changing our knowledge. I really think that original Illyrians were Hamitic origin but many tribes which Greeks called Illyrians were I2a/R1a carriers (and another carriers who are not Hamitic E haplogroup), and for me is properly that we call them Dinaric Illyrians.

Sile
08-10-13, 22:03
2 modern made maps below of very similar information - Illyrian migration - Both state Illyrian where in Pannonia around 1000BC, 1 map states Illyrian, another states they are early slavic.
The conclusion is really that the Illyrians are central europeans migrating into the balkans over time.

http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/1000-BC-migrations.png

(http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/1000-BC-migrations.png)http://www.flickr.com/photos/ancientgreekmapsandmore/450790180/in/[email protected]/lightbox/

Legends
about Illyria and Epirus are strange. The Albanian history and historians have definitely shown signs of incompetence by not contributing and deepening their knowledge to the discovery of

this antiquity.
Referring to the epanoistic dictionary of Epirus

the history of these two names according to the writer (Fatos Mero Rrapaj, 2007) derives from two terms:

Tosks and Geghs. The Tosks derive from the Moloses (Epirus) and the Geghs from the Dardan.



.

Garrick
09-10-13, 01:17
2 modern made maps below of very similar information - Illyrian migration - Both state Illyrian where in Pannonia around 1000BC, 1 map states Illyrian, another states they are early slavic.
The conclusion is really that the Illyrians are central europeans migrating into the balkans over time.

http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/1000-BC-migrations.png

(http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/1000-BC-migrations.png)http://www.flickr.com/photos/ancientgreekmapsandmore/450790180/in/[email protected]/lightbox/

Legends
about Illyria and Epirus are strange. The Albanian history and historians have definitely shown signs of incompetence by not contributing and deepening their knowledge to the discovery of

this antiquity.
Referring to the epanoistic dictionary of Epirus

the history of these two names according to the writer (Fatos Mero Rrapaj, 2007) derives from two terms:

Tosks and Geghs. The Tosks derive from the Moloses (Epirus) and the Geghs from the Dardan.



.


Even not very important if name of Illyrian originally from Hamitic E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) carriers or Slavic I2a/R1a carriers. It is possible that Greeks untintentionally made confusion.

It is important to know that about 70% Illyrian tribes were Indo-Europeans, I2a/R1a carriers.

One smaller part of the tribes of Illyria were Hamites, E1b1b1a2 carriers.

Today Albanians developed speculative legends.

There are Albanians who think that now is time for renaissance Hamitic race for wich they think that once ruled the entire Mediterranean and beyond, one of most important figures in their pantheon after Adham, Noah, Ham, and Cush is Nimrod

They write about Nimrod:

The Hamitic E-V13 Nimrod was the first king of Earth to wear a crown thus creating the E-V13 Royal bloodline. We are Kings of Kings and High Priests!

You write about incompetence and lack of depth of knowledge, but in system where myths are interwoven with fantasies, who cares.

Garrick
09-10-13, 02:19
Albanian site about Hamitic roots.

http://hamitic.wordpress.com/famous-hamitics-persons-of-halopgroup-e/

Discover your roots (Your Hamitic bloodline)
Returning our Hamitic forefather and roots to its pre-eminence. To lead the world to a Global Peace.
Ham is our root Ancestor, our Father, He is the founder of Haplogroup DE
Ham means Hot – Romantic just as ROMA (Rome) means written backwards AMOR (Love)

Ham

Ham means Hot – Romantic just as ROMA (Rome) means backwards AMOR (Love)

Ham is our root Ancestor, our Father, He is founder of Haplogroup DE. The name Ham seems to be a contraction of Adham’s (Adam) name (The first man created) it seems that Ham showed some of the physical characteristics of Adham (As we can see with people that belongs in Biblical Adam’s Haplogroup A or people who belong to Biblical Noah’s Haplogroup B).




http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/y-marker-haplogroup-e-2.png?w=640&h=411



Cush

The Kushites are Divided in 4 major branches: The Latin Kushites (Roman Kushites E-V13, Latin Europeans and Latin Americans) , the Ethiopian Kushites, the Arabian Kushites, and the Indian Kushites or Asiatic Kushites.

Nimrod founder of Albanians


http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/nimrod.jpg?w=640

Nimrod first King on Earth


He was the first king of Earth to wear a crown thus creating the E-V13 Royal bloodline.

The First E-V13 and Father of all Romans and E-V13 gene carriers today.

Nimrod was Hamitic and Cushite because his Grandfather was Ham and His Father was Cush, therefore all E-V13 we are Hamitic and Cushites.


http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/the-eye-of-nimrod-the-sun-of-nimrod-and-the-pyramide-of-nimrod-the-new-age.jpg?w=640


The Eye of Nimrod – The Sun of Nimrod – and the Pyramide of Nimrod – The New Age

(Not only Illyrians, but all Latins have Albanian roots; picture bellow):

http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/e-v13.png?w=640

Abuot Illyrians

Illus (Illyria – Albania)

Father of all the Illyrians (Albanians)

Of all Torrent and field of Athens
They will be surprised by light cavalry,
By Albanois Mars, Leo, Saturn in Urn. (Nostradamus C.5:91)

(From Ilus originate Latinus and Romulos)

http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/romulos-romans-the-e-v13.gif?w=640



Hamitic Roman Empire from 30 bc to 117 ad.

http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/hamitic-roman-empire-from-30-bc-to-117-ad.jpg?w=640&h=498

kamani
09-10-13, 06:24
That's beautiful and all, but Albanians are only 20-25% E-V13, the rest is R1b, R1a, I, and J. Based on the Albanians that I know, I can say that 1/2 of their R1b is from Northern/Western Europe (not the Romans), and that makes like 10% of the population. You factor in there I1, I2b, some R1a, plus paleolithic all-european mtdna, and you get a semi-nordic semi-south-European population. It's not as simple as these hamitic tales.

adamo
09-10-13, 07:52
Garrick your views on the Hamitic race and all this is so distorted...that its giving me a panic attack after I smoked that good, making me wonder wether you where produced WITH or without a brain..."The Nimrod was the first king on earth thus creating the royal E-V13 bloodline" he says. What is E-V13 to you, some paint product or something? God, it's so bad. And at the worst, the genealogy chart you showed pus there seems to be a TROJAN line of descent as I see Dardanus of the Dardanelles region of turkey, king Priam is there, Anchises of Troy who migrated to Latium is there; it's a Trojan bloodline man.

adamo
09-10-13, 07:54
Sorry not even; it's even worse, it seems to be a fabricated or mythological bloodline lol that may not even be secured by actually family related births.

adamo
09-10-13, 07:57
A jumble of incoherent nonsense based not on legitimate genetic information but on inaccurately researched and presented mythology, that to be honest, has nothing to do with the haplogroup itself in any way. Yes of course, "Nimrod" is the answer for all this; I mean who WOULDN'T have guessed that it was him all along?

adamo
09-10-13, 07:58
Nimrod the father of all Albanians "posts picture of nimrod to validate point" L.O.L

vetus
09-10-13, 09:56
@Garrick

All this nimrod stuff you have put is is strange. Its illogical nonsense. Incoherent. You said all this after i said theres no connection between illyrian and Slavic. Whats wrong with being Slavic? Are you denying yourself who you are or your forefathers? If you think you are descendant of illyrians, then stop speaking serbian because serbian is a Slavic language. Second go find out what illyrian langauge was, and if you are not able to find that out, which im sure you wont because illyrian is dead, then go learn latin, because illyrians spoke latin after they were conquered by rome. You also contradict yourself a lot. First you say original illyrians were E-V13 sfter FBS suggested that to you, then you say others were R1a and I2a. How can the others be different from the originals? Out of the originals come forth the others. How can a child be different from his parents? His genes derive from those of his parents

Ike
09-10-13, 12:24
Of course it's very strange. And it's not Garrick's idea. There are many more similar, although this one is the most fantastic of them all :)
It's interesting that you didn't caught it up before.

Anyway Garrick is totally logical. He is claiming that Illyria was a territory, and that not all tribes of Illyria were of same ethnicity (and they spoke different languages). Some of Illiric tribes were R1a/I2 origin ans some were of E-V13. All were referred as Illyrians by Romans, but not all did speak the same language. It is not hard to understand that. Only new thing he proposed, is to call them Hamitic and Dinaric. I'm not sure if terminology is perfect, but the idea is good.

I suppose he used the term "original Illyrians" because it's logical to think that Greek (first to mention Illyrians) had first contacts with E-V13, and not with Dinaric ones, when they first came to Balkans. It's simple geography thing. I don't think it' OK to call any of them original Illyrians, until we're certain. Dienekes claimed not so long ago that E-V13 was spread by the Greeks.

Garrick
09-10-13, 20:41
That's beautiful and all, but Albanians are only 20-25% E-V13, the rest is R1b, R1a, I, and J. Based on the Albanians that I know, I can say that 1/2 of their R1b is from Northern/Western Europe (not the Romans), and that makes like 10% of the population. You factor in there I1, I2b, some R1a, plus paleolithic all-european mtdna, and you get a semi-nordic semi-south-European population. It's not as simple as these hamitic tales.

No, Geg Albanians have the biggest share of E haplogroup in Europe.

In Kosovo is peak, carriers of E haplogroup are 45,6%, according Pericic et al (Kosovo Albanians are almost all Geg Albanians).

In Albania Geg Albanians have 42% E haplogroup according Ferri et al.

Tosk Albanians have significantly less share of E haplogroup, 28,1% according Ferri et al.

You can see in this Albanian website authors claim that share of E haplogroup (E1b1b1a2 or E-V13) is 75% in Albanian areas.





http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/combining-science-mythology-blue-print1.gif?w=640


http://hamitic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dardania-kosovo-ethnic-e-v13-population-2013.jpg?w=640

These Hamitic Albanian authors know that E-V13 is older in Balkans from another Albanian haplogroups.

Maybe expansion of Middle East haplogroup J2 was going along with E-V13, but there are indicators that it was later, especially that J2 carriers later joined core of ancestors of Geg Albanian population E-V13.

R1b ht35 came late from Anatolia/Caucasus. Maybe within the Byzantine or with Turks. Perhaps earlier but later than E-V13.

R1b ht35 is Armenian haplotype. This haplotype has nothing with Celts.

You can see maps of Celtic haplogroups, there are no in Geg Albanians and a bit in Tosk Albanians.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif




http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif



Geg Albanians are E-V13 core and these Hamitic Albanians authors know it. J2 in Albanians is big question when it occurs. Appearance R1b ht35 in Geg population is the question.

Another haplogroups in Geg Albanians are not much represented. Somewhat R1a and I1.

It is mystery why the most common Balkans haplogroup I2a is almost non existent in Geg Albanians (in Kosovo Albanians only 2,7%) and much more represented in Tosks (about 20%).

To summarize:

Geg Albanians are mostly E-V13 (Hamitic origin), this is their core haplogroup, and probably tha part of Illyrian tribes, those who were close to Greeks, were E-V13 carriers. These Illyrians are Hamitic Illyrians an this is correct name for that tribes.

J2 carriers (Middle east origin) possible that they were with E-V13 but there are researchers who think that these carriers came late in acestors of Geg Albanian population, maybe these carriers are less important when we speak about Illyrians.

R1b ht35 carriers (Armenian/Anatolian) are more later entered in ancestors of Geg Albanians and probably they have nothing with Illyrians.

Another haplogroups in Gegs (R1a, I1, etc) are result of assimilation.

kamani
10-10-13, 04:11
No, Geg Albanians have the biggest share of E haplogroup in Europe.

In Kosovo is peak, carriers of E haplogroup are 45,6%, according Pericic et al (Kosovo Albanians are almost all Geg Albanians).

In Albania Geg Albanians have 42% E haplogroup according Ferri et al.

Tosk Albanians have significantly less share of E haplogroup, 28,1% according Ferri et al.


Maybe Kosovars are 45% E-V13, but not all Geg Albanians, because Geg is everybody above Tirana, and all studies in Tirana show E-v13 in the 20-s percentage; Tirana is about 50% geg, 50% tosk. Even Peloponesian Greeks have more E-v13 than people in Tirana. So 45% would be Tropoja and up till you reach Serbia. That's why Serbia has ~20% E-v13 too, because you have incorporated part of this northern Albanian population.
Just by looking at the distribution of E-v13, one can tell that another population has inserted itself in the middle of this old Balkanic hg in the area of today's Albania, that's the people that brought the Illyrian IE language from North-West Europe.

Ike
10-10-13, 14:44
Just by looking at the distribution of E-v13, one can tell that another population has inserted itself in the middle of this old Balkanic hg in the area of today's Albania, that's the people that brought the Illyrian IE language from North-West Europe.

There's no proof that E-V13 is older than other Hg's of Balkan. More than that, connection of E-V13 with the diffusion of agriculture is disputable since analysis of Albanian language origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Historical_presence_and_location ) has shown that the words for plants and animals characteristic of mountainous regions are entirely original, but the names for fish and for agricultural activities are borrowed from other languages.

Garrick
10-10-13, 16:45
@Garrick

Are you denying yourself who you are or your forefathers? If you think you are descendant of illyrians, then stop speaking serbian because serbian is a Slavic language. Second go find out what illyrian langauge was, and if you are not able to find that out, which im sure you wont because illyrian is dead, then go learn latin, because illyrians spoke latin after they were conquered by rome. You also contradict yourself a lot. First you say original illyrians were E-V13 sfter FBS suggested that to you, then you say others were R1a and I2a. How can the others be different from the originals? Out of the originals come forth the others. How can a child be different from his parents? His genes derive from those of his parents

Facts are that numerous Illyrian tribes were I2a/R1a carriers and they have nothing with Hamitic E-V13 carriers, of course it is possible that somewhere was mix.

It is possible that root of word Illyrian is Hamitic, ie Cushitic or Egyptian:

In Cushitic il, ila, ili=eye, of which can be derived light, star etc.

but maybe it is coincidence.

Albanian authors love to play with words. But this with Cushitic and Egyptian words there is reason to be associated with Illyrian name.

But there are words I2a/R1a carriers who was comprised numerous Illyrian tribes, and these words are the same roots as Slavic, can be linked with Illyrian name.

The root of Illyrian name can be founded in Slavic (South Slavic) languages.

For example, in Serbian/Croatian: ilo, ila = loam

Loam is type of soil consisting of sand, silt and clay. Loam is a suitable soil for serpents. In Serbs/Slavic/Dinaric people was strong cult of serpent. Serpent is related with female goddess. Also, loam is Good material for pottery and construction of houses (it is the famous indigenous Illyrian pottery).

Of course someone can linked Cushitic/Egyptian eye with Chorus and Wadjet etc. Wadjet was serpent goddess, associated with soil and depicted as cobra).


I can suppose why Greeks made inadvertent mistake and challenge confuse:

Hamitic Illyrians (E-V13 carriers)

and

Dinaric Illyrians (I2a/R1a carriers)

had a similar name, similarly called himself.

Maybe difference was in one or two letters (voices).

Greeks thought it is the same and E-V13 carriers were close to them and they call all tribes Illyrians and whole territory Illyria, although I2a/R1a tribes and E1b1b1a2 (E-V13 tribes) did not have anything in common.

kamani
10-10-13, 16:46
the words for plants and animals characteristic of mountainous regions are entirely original, but the names for fish and for agricultural activities are borrowed from other languages.

Even if that was true, it would be only natural. The coast and lowlands were Roman/Byzantine metropolitan areas for milleniums. I never denied that the Albanian language borrows heavily from Latin and some from Greek.

Garrick
10-10-13, 16:55
Garrick your views on the Hamitic race and all this is so distorted...that its giving me a panic attack after I smoked that good, making me wonder wether you where produced WITH or without a brain..."The Nimrod was the first king on earth thus creating the royal E-V13 bloodline" he says. What is E-V13 to you, some paint product or something? God, it's so bad. And at the worst, the genealogy chart you showed pus there seems to be a TROJAN line of descent as I see Dardanus of the Dardanelles region of turkey, king Priam is there, Anchises of Troy who migrated to Latium is there; it's a Trojan bloodline man.


Sorry not even; it's even worse, it seems to be a fabricated or mythological bloodline lol that may not even be secured by actually family related births.


A jumble of incoherent nonsense based not on legitimate genetic information but on inaccurately researched and presented mythology, that to be honest, has nothing to do with the haplogroup itself in any way. Yes of course, "Nimrod" is the answer for all this; I mean who WOULDN'T have guessed that it was him all along?


Nimrod the father of all Albanians "posts picture of nimrod to validate point" L.O.L

Four paragraphs. But why you addressed to me. It is from the Albanian website.

Ike
10-10-13, 18:52
Even if that was true, it would be only natural.
If E-V13 are the claimed Neolithic farmers, it would be normal to guess that they were the ones who presented terminology upon others. It is not logical to assume that surrounding tribes, which later came in contact with E-V13, picked up the trade from them, but invented their own terms and inflicted them back to E-V13.

Ike
10-10-13, 19:30
@Garrick Interesting to add this:

Ilion was a city in South-Eastern Thrace. Duridanov explains the meaning as coming from Indo-European il - mud, which is to be found in Greek ιλυς - mud. Old Church Slavonic ИЛЪ - mud, preserved today in Russian ил (il) and Slovene ilo, as well as jul in its Tolminski dialect. Hittites named it Wilusia. Ilion (Troy) was located indeed in marshy area, so the name Muddy is quite logical.

from: " ETYMOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THRACIAN TOPONYMS AND HYDRONYMS", P. Serafimov

kamani
10-10-13, 19:48
If E-V13 are the claimed Neolithic farmers, it would be normal to guess that they were the ones who presented terminology upon others. It is not logical to assume that surrounding tribes, which later came in contact with E-V13, picked up the trade from them, but invented their own terms and inflicted them back to E-V13.

I'm saying the coming Illyrian IE tribes fused with E-v13 in the Balkans to form the Illyrian language. Then the Romans came and added a latin layer to Illyrian. This latin layer would mostly be seen on words that relate to the coast or agriculture because the coast and lowlands were the areas occupied by the Romans. The highlanders were and remained shepherds.

Ike
10-10-13, 20:11
I'm talking about the other part of the sentence(in bold), which is most crucial for Albanian/E-V13/Neolithic farmer connection.

If we assume E-V13 were the original Neolithic farmers, it turns out that Romans/Greeks drove them out of coastal and fertile plains and that long dwelling in the mountains made them forget their own language, so that they had to import foreign words for rediscovered agriculture.

It is plausible. But what is interesting is that none of the surrounding IE language groups, that supposedly imported agriculture from E-V13 (assumed path is from Greece> Balkan>Europe) had also imported any of the original E-V13 agricultural terminology.

kamani
10-10-13, 23:45
E-v13 when it came from Anatolia as Neolithic farmers probably did not speak proto-IE, and when IE spread everybody had already adopted farming for a few milleniums. I would not expect farming words from the Neolithic to show up in IE languages of modern times, but nobody can be sure that they don't.

Ike
11-10-13, 00:05
Why not expect it? There's just a 100 years window between the two.
Diffusion (http://skepticlawyer.com.au/files/2013/06/blog_cm_4728057_7216201_tr_europe-diffusion-farming.gif) of farming to Pontic-Caspian steppe happened from 4800-4300 BC.
Suspected invasion (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg) of IE speakers to Balkan happened from 4200-3000 BC.

I'm not claiming that it did actually happen this way or that numbers are correct, but for now there are lot of reasons to be suspicious.

kamani
11-10-13, 05:33
My dates are a bit different. I'm reading from wiki:"Remains of food-producing societies in the Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_civilization) have been carbon-dated to around 6500 BC at Knossos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos), Franchthi Cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchthi_Cave), and a number of mainland sites in Thessaly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaly). Neolithic groups appear soon afterwards in the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) and south-central Europe. The Neolithic cultures of southeastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Europe) (the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans), Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), and the Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_civilization)) show some continuity with groups in southwest Asia and Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia)"
The Bronze age IE invasions started no earlier than 3500 BC, with the Illyrians amalgamating with the native Pelasgians around 3000-2000 BC.

Sile
11-10-13, 08:32
The Bronze age IE invasions started no earlier than 3500 BC, with the Illyrians amalgamating with the native Pelasgians around 3000-2000 BC.

the "illyrians" did not amalgamate with the Pelasgians before 500BC, unless the pelasgians where in modern hungarian lands. So you are nearly 2000 years in error

MOESAN
11-10-13, 18:15
just concerning haplogroups, I think Kosovars underwent a genetic drift based on a firstable not too large population of Gheg origin coming or infiltrating northwards at some time of History (the Albaneses could enlighten me on this point I 'm not aware of) - The original correct % for Y-E1b-V13 would have been roughly the same as the Ghegs one, I suppose (25-30%?) -

FBS
12-10-13, 00:02
There were movements (exodus) from Ottomans especially Kelmendi clan (sometimes refred as Klimenti), the clan that I belong to, to Serbia-Vojvodina. Those that were catholics became Croatians and the Orthodox must have become Serbs. My predecessors were orthodox, Kelmend, eventhough for some this is unbelivable. Here is the link that mentions shortly the Kelmendi in Vojvodina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrtkovci. They could have added the EV13 among todays Serb.

Eldritch
12-10-13, 10:08
just concerning haplogroups, I think Kosovars underwent a genetic drift based on a firstable not too large population of Gheg origin coming or infiltrating northwards at some time of History (the Albaneses could enlighten me on this point I 'm not aware of) - The original correct % for Y-E1b-V13 would have been roughly the same as the Ghegs one, I suppose (25-30%?) -
I think it's a typical phenomenon of balkan mountain areas, there was also an I2a1b founder effect in today Bosnia&Herzegovina.

Garrick
12-10-13, 11:25
Maybe Kosovars are 45% E-V13, but not all Geg Albanians, because Geg is everybody above Tirana, and all studies in Tirana show E-v13 in the 20-s percentage; Tirana is about 50% geg, 50% tosk. Even Peloponesian Greeks have more E-v13 than people in Tirana. So 45% would be Tropoja and up till you reach Serbia. That's why Serbia has ~20% E-v13 too, because you have incorporated part of this northern Albanian population.
Just by looking at the distribution of E-v13, one can tell that another population has inserted itself in the middle of this old Balkanic hg in the area of today's Albania, that's the people that brought the Illyrian IE language from North-West Europe.

Tirana is big mix, Geg, Tosk, descedents of Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Armenians, Turks, Circassians, Kurds etc.

North of Albania and Kosovo (47,5% according to Eupedia) are better example, and it is of mainland of Geg population, as northwest of Upper Macedonia.

Garrick
12-10-13, 11:52
So 45% would be Tropoja and up till you reach Serbia. That's why Serbia has ~20% E-v13 too, because you have incorporated part of this northern Albanian population.



There were movements (exodus) from Ottomans especially Kelmendi clan (sometimes refred as Klimenti), the clan that I belong to, to Serbia-Vojvodina. Those that were catholics became Croatians and the Orthodox must have become Serbs. My predecessors were orthodox, Kelmend, eventhough for some this is unbelivable. Here is the link that mentions shortly the Kelmendi in Vojvodina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrtkovci. They could have added the EV13 among todays Serb.

Croats have about 10% E1b1b1a2, Bosniacs something more. Macedonians and Bulgarians have are the most. Even the Slovaks have 6,5%. All Slavic nations have in a lesser degree. And some western Europeans. In Southern Europe Italians mostly (not including the Greeks).

But you are right, Serbs should have similar Bosniacs and Croats. This is due to centuries interference between Dinaric/Slavic and Hamitic population. I already said that some Illyrian tribes were mix of carriers of I2a/R1a and E1b1b1a2.

Serbs have more than Bosniacs and Croats (less than Macedonians) and there should be a reason for that. Ok, it can be mix with Greeks, Cinars, Romanians etc, but only partially.

And it can be because Montenegrian tribes inhabited Serbia. One smaller part of Montenerins have high concentration of E1b1b1a2 (Montenegrins have E1b1b1a2 similar as Tosk Albanians). But let's not get into speculations.

kamani
12-10-13, 14:10
Tirana is big mix, Geg, Tosk, descedents of Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Armenians, Turks, Circassians, Kurds etc.

North of Albania and Kosovo (47,5% according to Eupedia) are better example, and it is of mainland of Geg population, as northwest of Upper Macedonia.
Tirana is not the typical mixed capital thou, Albanians are the least mixed population in the Europe according to published papers already discussed in this forum. About 20-30% of the population of Tirana now is from Tropoja region, which is one of the most unreachable and unmixed mountain areas of the North. They came in the recent 20 years with the fall of Communism. Somehow the percentage of E-v13 in Tirana is still 20-30%. So the Geg "core" lands that you're talking about are probably currently out of the Albanian borders. So you're saying in a round-about way that Albania has been a bigger nation than its current borders :).

Garrick
12-10-13, 15:59
Tirana is not the typical mixed capital thou, Albanians are the least mixed population in the Europe according to published papers already discussed in this forum. About 20-30% of the population of Tirana now is from Tropoja region, which is one of the most unreachable and unmixed mountain areas of the North. They came in the recent 20 years with the fall of Communism. Somehow the percentage of E-v13 in Tirana is still 20-30%. So the Geg "core" lands that you're talking about are probably currently out of the Albanian borders. So you're saying in a round-about way that Albania has been a bigger nation than its current borders :).

It is newer time. Tirana founded from Turks (Ottomans). Before that there was a Byzantine town Theranda but it is disappeared.

Turks brought many nations to the Tirana from the Empire. And I forgot Vlach and Cincars who were once numerous residents and now they assimilated.

Because it was a big mix there is in Tirana today less E1b1b1a2 than in the north or Albania, not to mention Kosovo where is a peak.

kamani
13-10-13, 01:09
It is newer time. Tirana founded from Turks (Ottomans). Before that there was a Byzantine town Theranda but it is disappeared.

Turks brought many nations to the Tirana from the Empire. And I forgot Vlach and Cincars who were once numerous residents and now they assimilated.

Because it was a big mix there is in Tirana today less E1b1b1a2 than in the north or Albania, not to mention Kosovo where is a peak.

You're right that Tirana goes back to antiquity as a city, in fact they have found castle walls from Roman times near the city center. However it is also a new city, in the sense that the vast majority of its population has come during or after Communism from all over Albania.

FBS
13-10-13, 11:59
It is newer time. Tirana founded from Turks (Ottomans). Before that there was a Byzantine town Theranda but it is disappeared.

Quote from wikipedia: Theranda was an old Roman settlement in what is now Prizren.[1]
The town is mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD in his Geography, whereas in the 5th century AD. it is mentioned with the name of Petrizên by Procopius of Caesarea in De aedificiis (Book IV, Chapter 4).
Sometimes the town is mentioned even in relation to the Justiniana Prima.[citation needed]
The town Suva Reka, in Kosovo, is referred to as Theranda by Kosovar Albanians, based after the Roman settlement. End of quote.

Tirana name must have sprung from the greek Tyrins, that means "dairy" since it has started as a trading point which is typical for all old - Albanian centers. Or the other theory which seems much more plausible is from Albanian T'rana which means the descending point. That is how Peja, Prizren and Gjakova were created, typical Illyrian legacy. Fighters/highlanders who could manage the plains only from the heights and could sell (exchange) their products for other products in these trading centers.

Marko94
15-10-13, 00:02
You're right that Tirana goes back to antiquity as a city, in fact they have found castle walls from Roman times near the city center. However it is also a new city, in the sense that the vast majority of its population has come during or after Communism from all over Albania.
No, it was when Italy conquered Albania.
Thanks to the fascists were able to transform Tirana in a city.

kamani
15-10-13, 07:11
No, it was when Italy conquered Albania.
Thanks to the fascists were able to transform Tirana in a city.
There is some truth in that. Between 1939-42, they build the main promenade and more than half of the government buildings. They had to bring their own workers too, because the local villagers around Tirana were known for being non-cooperative.

Marko94
15-10-13, 21:59
There is some truth in that. Between 1939-42, they build the main promenade and more than half of the government buildings. They had to bring their own workers too, because the local villagers around Tirana were known for being non-cooperative.
I don't know about workers, but I know that the fascists immediately after the conquest of Albania, decided to turn in a big city Tirana(of course means of Albania).But a very interesting thing is that, in time of the Italian fascism was taught in Albanian schools and learning Italian was very fast.
The Italian was taught in Albania without any problems, this is dated by the vast majority of the Latin words in the Albanian language that has helped the albanians to learn Italian language without any problems.

Garrick
16-10-13, 01:22
Whole this discussion just confirms my words. Tirana was founded from Turks. They brought many nations from the Ottoman Empire (Turks, Greeks, Serbs, Armenians, Circassians, etc…) and from south Vlaches and Cincars. Also after collapse of Ottoman Empire it was some Italians who settled Tirana. Practically modern Tirana became mass inhabited by Albanians after World War Two. It is reason why in today’s Tirana is less E1b1b1a2 than in the north of Albania.

kamani
16-10-13, 02:33
The Italian was taught in Albania without any problems, this is dated by the vast majority of the Latin words in the Albanian language that has helped the albanians to learn Italian language without any problems.

Correct, most people in Tirana learn perfect Italian in about 1-2 years just from watching Italian television. Even my 80+ year old grandfather learned Italian from the television, good luck doing that with German...

Marko94
17-10-13, 17:02
Whole this discussion just confirms my words. Tirana was founded from Turks. They brought many nations from the Ottoman Empire (Turks, Greeks, Serbs, Armenians, Circassians, etc…) and from south Vlaches and Cincars. Also after collapse of Ottoman Empire it was some Italians who settled Tirana. Practically modern Tirana became mass inhabited by Albanians after World War Two. It is reason why in today’s Tirana is less E1b1b1a2 than in the north of Albania.
Don't is correct.
Tirana was transformed in Bazar by turk.
In time of fascism the village was (again XD) transformed in city by fascist.
In this video is confirmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a_b68bnIrM

Marko94
17-10-13, 17:08
Correct, most people in Tirana learn perfect Italian in about 1-2 years just from watching Italian television. Even my 80+ year old grandfather learned Italian from the television, good luck doing that with German...

In Italy it is very well known.
According to research, the 86% of the Albanians (with an age from 11 years up to 25) have mastered the language Italian just with tv.

Bardhyl
20-12-13, 01:07
Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.

Nicely observed. Germans call themselves also Deutsche..und Deutschland..so that is a wrong identity of german too? So they are not Germans according to you?

dont always try to push down Albanians.

mihaitzateo
20-12-13, 22:39
I do not think that Thraco-Dacians came to Balkans at around 100 AD,for the simple reason there are Dacian kings attested before this date.
So because they were there,they have been invaded,the part South of Danube,before 0 AD.
For example,Burebista - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista attested between 82BC to 44BC.
Ilyrians are mentioned there,as livings South of Danube together with Thracians,when Burebista went on an expedition against Celts that were spread South of Danube,between Ilyrians and Thracians.
Which shows that Thracians were there also,not only Ilyrians,how some Albanians here want to distort the historic truth.
EDIT
Oh,forgot one thing,Romanian language have borrowings from Old Greek,which Albanian do not have.
If Albanians would have been there and they are from Ilyrians,how come they do not have borrowings from Ancient/Old Greek language?

FBS
21-12-13, 00:53
I do not think that Thraco-Dacians came to Balkans at around 100 AD,for the simple reason there are Dacian kings attested before this date.
So because they were there,they have been invaded,the part South of Danube,before 0 AD.
For example,Burebista - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista attested between 82BC to 44BC.
Ilyrians are mentioned there,as livings South of Danube together with Thracians,when Burebista went on an expedition against Celts that were spread South of Danube,between Ilyrians and Thracians.
Which shows that Thracians were there also,not only Ilyrians,how some Albanians here want to distort the historic truth.
EDIT
Oh,forgot one thing,Romanian language have borrowings from Old Greek,which Albanian do not have.
If Albanians would have been there and they are from Ilyrians,how come they do not have borrowings from Ancient/Old Greek language?
Out of curiosity, what does Burebista mean in Romanian?

Ike
21-12-13, 01:09
On Bosnian it literally means:

bure = barrel
bista= bust

So it could connotate a person with a large chest :)

Sile
21-12-13, 02:57
I do not think that Thraco-Dacians came to Balkans at around 100 AD,for the simple reason there are Dacian kings attested before this date.
So because they were there,they have been invaded,the part South of Danube,before 0 AD.
For example,Burebista - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista attested between 82BC to 44BC.
Ilyrians are mentioned there,as livings South of Danube together with Thracians,when Burebista went on an expedition against Celts that were spread South of Danube,between Ilyrians and Thracians.
Which shows that Thracians were there also,not only Ilyrians,how some Albanians here want to distort the historic truth.
EDIT
Oh,forgot one thing,Romanian language have borrowings from Old Greek,which Albanian do not have.
If Albanians would have been there and they are from Ilyrians,how come they do not have borrowings from Ancient/Old Greek language?

Greek historians state the oldest race in the Balkans apart from Greeks are Thracians...............that's it

Ike
22-12-13, 05:18
BTW, while we talk about Abanian continuity, could someone explain to me black/red dresses and characteristic white cap in North Africa among Kabyles? More on the Kabyles here (http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5100425/1/).


https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/246676_10152095123495004_1812028463_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/486872_10152095127300004_2011837046_n.jpg

Sile
22-12-13, 07:02
BTW, while we talk about Abanian continuity, could someone explain to me black/red dresses and characteristic white cap in North Africa among Kabyles? More on the Kabyles here (http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5100425/1/).


https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/246676_10152095123495004_1812028463_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/486872_10152095127300004_2011837046_n.jpg

looks like same ethnicity and cultural traits

where is this place exactly?

Bardhyl
22-12-13, 12:23
BTW, while we talk about Abanian continuity, could someone explain to me black/red dresses and characteristic white cap in North Africa among Kabyles? More on the Kabyles here (http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5100425/1/).


https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/246676_10152095123495004_1812028463_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/486872_10152095127300004_2011837046_n.jpg

I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

MOESAN
22-12-13, 13:51
I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

Bardhyl, the posting of a picture is not a crime anyway -
surely Ike had some idea in the back of his head but we don't know what, so...
Your remarks about language and SNPs of Y-E1b are sensible, putting a definitive difference between Kabyles and Albanians or other Balkanians-
since we are about this matter, I recall the scottish tartans the Portuguese fishermen of Nazaré made their trousers with...
today people in Europe wear all kinds of dress according to seasons evocating Polynesia or Inuit "lands" - the Celts nobility loaned the roman helms etc... and at some stage of their history the Scythian pants, if what I red is true...

Sile
22-12-13, 13:51
I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

let Ike prove it with Genetics, ............but the story of ancient Numidians being taken to Epirus by the Romans after the massacre of the illyrians by the Romans in the illyrian revolts of 9 BC is plausible........lets see what comes up.

Bardhyl
22-12-13, 14:02
Ok your right I took it wrong I just explain some kabyles info:

According to wiki:
Kabyle People (in algeria)
Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)[11]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[12] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.[13]MtDNA Haplogroups, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies: H (32.23%), found throughout Europe; U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), common to North Africa; preHV (3.23%), preV (4.84%), V (4.84%), T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).

kabyle language:
Kabyle is a Northern Berber language part of the Afro-Asiatic family.


The population is expected to be 5-7 millions

Garrick
22-12-13, 14:11
I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

But you can't ignore that there are people in North Africa and Middle East who have similar clothing and habits as Albanians.

For example Druzes in the Middle East (they have significant E-V13):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-DRrA1shduk/RaDwkvn4a7I/AAAAAAAAAAM/42mDGEWqm4U/s320/img_0021%2B(2).jp

http://www.ellenrooney.com/faces/Druze%20man3.jpg

http://ipsnews-net.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/Library/2013/12/Syria-small-629x352.jpg

Albanians

http://www.incommunion.org/img/albania/woman.jpg

http://cdnfiles.hdrcreme.com/32182/medium/albanian-lute-player.jpg?1318291806

Bardhyl
22-12-13, 14:24
Yes and greece, serbia and. Macedonia also has e-v13, and similarities like protecting your head from heat and cold? And albanians also have j2, i2.

FBS
22-12-13, 23:43
As per Ike's post no.163
I like and respect Berber people very much, they are amazing and unique but:
These caps are nowhere near to the Albanian one, same goes for the rest of the costumes. Original Albanian caps symbolize half egg (creation myth), while the female clothing (those that are not influenced by turks)has a lot of insignia symbolizing sun (swastika) and the eagle and usually has only black,white and red colors. Plus DNA of berber is not the same with Albanian, so this cannot be taken seriously.

Ike
23-12-13, 00:47
I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

Do you now want to say that Albanians have exclusive rights to E-V13?! How do you know that I'm not E-V13? There is more E-V13 people in Europe that are not Albanians, than the ones that are.

It is not somewhere in the world but in very north of Africa, in Kabylia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Location_Kabylie.svg/800px-Location_Kabylie.svg.png). It is near one very possible entry point of E-V13 to Europe.
It's not any similarities, costumes are exactly the same color as Albanian flag, and cap is the very same concept.

E-V13 created in Europe? OK, but whom from? It must have been their ancestor Hgs like M78 or V68, they couldn't have fallen from the sky.


It seems here like Albanians are more dedicated to prove that they are not African, than to prove they are indeed the biological and linguistic descendants of one of the oldest cultures in Europe. If would be marvelous to find out that they are the only one among E-V13 people which maintained some of the customs and language of their origin place, from which they could have come like 10 kya. Instead, they are just turning their head around, and even act like being insulted, just for a notion of possible African heritage. Well that's kinda racists.



As per Ike's post no.163
I like and respect Berber people very much, they are amazing and unique but:
These caps are nowhere near to the Albanian one, same goes for the rest of the costumes. Original Albanian caps symbolize half egg (creation myth), while the female clothing (those that are not influenced by turks)has a lot of insignia symbolizing sun (swastika) and the eagle and usually has only black,white and red colors. Plus DNA of berber is not the same with Albanian, so this cannot be taken seriously.

Nowhere near? OK, find me a more similar one, anywhere in the world?
DNA not the same? It's same haplogroup E. When you have German tribes of different haplogroups (I1 and R1b for example) being of same cultural background and language, it is even more plausible to assume the same for two peoples belonging to the exactly same haplogroup E.

Bardhyl
23-12-13, 01:25
Ike i already said post #170 that there are others with e-v13 and very numerous in balkans, and also look at my post #168 i already said I took it wrong.
Its also normal to misunderstand. Its a self defence system, because you surely would be able to remember the times of comparing Albanians with caucasus Albania, which came seemingly in the year 1500 to europe balkan.
it seems like your post is for the sake of science and not propaganda, and i fully respect that.

greetings

bardhyl

FBS
23-12-13, 11:29
Do you now want to say that Albanians have exclusive rights to E-V13?! How do you know that I'm not E-V13? There is more E-V13 people in Europe that are not Albanians, than the ones that are.

It is not somewhere in the world but in very north of Africa, in Kabylia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Location_Kabylie.svg/800px-Location_Kabylie.svg.png). It is near one very possible entry point of E-V13 to Europe.
It's not any similarities, costumes are exactly the same color as Albanian flag, and cap is the very same concept.

E-V13 created in Europe? OK, but whom from? It must have been their ancestor Hgs like M78 or V68, they couldn't have fallen from the sky.


It seems here like Albanians are more dedicated to prove that they are not African, than to prove they are indeed the biological and linguistic descendants of one of the oldest cultures in Europe. If would be marvelous to find out that they are the only one among E-V13 people which maintained some of the customs and language of their origin place, from which they could have come like 10 kya. Instead, they are just turning their head around, and even act like being insulted, just for a notion of possible African heritage. Well that's kinda racists.


Nowhere near? OK, find me a more similar one, anywhere in the world?
DNA not the same? It's same haplogroup E. When you have German tribes of different haplogroups (I1 and R1b for example) being of same cultural background and language, it is even more plausible to assume the same for two peoples belonging to the exactly same haplogroup E.



Y-Dna haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup), passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E3b_(Y-DNA)#E1b1b1b_.28E-M81.29.3B_formerly_E3b1b.2C_E3b2) (47.36%), R1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)#R1)(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1a2))[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-11)), J1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)) (15.78%), F* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA))(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) andE1b1b1c (E-M123) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E3b_(Y-DNA)#E1b1b1c_.28E-M123.29.3B_formerly_E3b1c.2C_E3b3) (10.52%).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-Arredi-12) The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic) origin.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-13)


Albanian DNA (Kosovo):




N
E-M78*
E-V13
E-M81
E-M123
J2
I
R1b
R1a
P


114
1.75%
43.85%
0.90%
0.90%
16.70%
7.96%
21.10%
4.42%
1.77%



See the difference???

FBS
23-12-13, 11:36
Serb DNA

Y-chromosomal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome) haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup) identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following: I2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA))-P37.2 (with frequencies of 29.20 and 30.90%, respectively), E1b1b1a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA))-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%), R1a1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a1)-M17 (15.93 and 13.60%), R1b1b2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b1_(Y-DNA))-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%), K* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(Y-DNA))-M9 (7.08 and 7.40%), J2b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA))-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%), I1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA))-M253 (5.31 and 2.5%), F* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA))-M89 (4.9%, only in B-H), J2a1b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA))-M92 (2.70%, only in Serbia), and several other uncommon haplogroups with lesser frequencies.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-pericic-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-marjanovic-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-battaglia-3)
Does this mean that Serbs have also Kabylie heritage - using Ikes Logic.

Sile
23-12-13, 20:39
Serb DNA

Y-chromosomal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome) haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup) identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following: I2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA))-P37.2 (with frequencies of 29.20 and 30.90%, respectively), E1b1b1a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA))-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%), R1a1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a1)-M17 (15.93 and 13.60%), R1b1b2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b1_(Y-DNA))-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%), K* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(Y-DNA))-M9 (7.08 and 7.40%), J2b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA))-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%), I1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA))-M253 (5.31 and 2.5%), F* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA))-M89 (4.9%, only in B-H), J2a1b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA))-M92 (2.70%, only in Serbia), and several other uncommon haplogroups with lesser frequencies.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-pericic-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-marjanovic-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-battaglia-3)
Does this mean that Serbs have also Kabylie heritage - using Ikes Logic.

Serbs are a mix of ancient non slav Thracian people from the triballi tribe and a slav tribe from slovakia ............slav historians have always failed to name slav tribes.

Garrick
24-12-13, 04:10
Serb DNA

Y-chromosomal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome) haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup) identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following: I2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA))-P37.2 (with frequencies of 29.20 and 30.90%, respectively), E1b1b1a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA))-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%), R1a1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a1)-M17 (15.93 and 13.60%), R1b1b2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b1_(Y-DNA))-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%), K* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(Y-DNA))-M9 (7.08 and 7.40%), J2b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA))-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%), I1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA))-M253 (5.31 and 2.5%), F* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA))-M89 (4.9%, only in B-H), J2a1b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA))-M92 (2.70%, only in Serbia), and several other uncommon haplogroups with lesser frequencies.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-pericic-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-marjanovic-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#cite_note-battaglia-3)
Does this mean that Serbs have also Kabylie heritage - using Ikes Logic.

There are more scientific studies in Serbia and Eupedia gives the exact percentages because takes all relevant studies:
I 42
(I1 8.5, I2a 33, I2b 0.5)
R 24
(R1a 16, R1b 8)
G 2
J 8.5
(J2 8, J1 0.5)
E 18
(E1b1b 18)
T 1
Q 1.5
N 2

Garrick
24-12-13, 04:18
Yes and greece, serbia and. Macedonia also has e-v13, and similarities like protecting your head from heat and cold? And albanians also have j2, i2.

Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Bosniacs... all have significant E-V13 (of course less than Geg Albanians). But these people don't have clothing and habits as Middle East/North African populations. We can see similarity in Albanian clothing/habits as Middle East/North African populations (and some Caucasus too).

Ike
24-12-13, 16:36
Ike i already said post #170 that there are others with e-v13 and very numerous in balkans, and also look at my post #168 i already said I took it wrong.
Its also normal to misunderstand. Its a self defence system, because you surely would be able to remember the times of comparing Albanians with caucasus Albania, which came seemingly in the year 1500 to europe balkan.
it seems like your post is for the sake of science and not propaganda, and i fully respect that.

greetings

bardhyl

:beer1: It would be great if this DNA mess resolves during our lifetime. So many new and interesting things to hear, ans so much history to rewrite :)







Y-Dna haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup), passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E3b_(Y-DNA)#E1b1b1b_.28E-M81.29.3B_formerly_E3b1b.2C_E3b2) (47.36%), R1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)#R1)(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1a2))[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-11)), J1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)) (15.78%), F* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA))(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) andE1b1b1c (E-M123) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E3b_(Y-DNA)#E1b1b1c_.28E-M123.29.3B_formerly_E3b1c.2C_E3b3) (10.52%).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-Arredi-12) The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic) origin.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-13)


Albanian DNA (Kosovo):




N
E-M78*
E-V13
E-M81
E-M123
J2
I
R1b
R1a
P


114
1.75%
43.85%
0.90%
0.90%
16.70%
7.96%
21.10%
4.42%
1.77%



See the difference???




Yes, I see the difference today, as there is a difference between Polish and Indian R1a. But as there is a split-off point for R1a like 5000 years ago, there must have been a split-off point for M-78 lineages maybe even up to 10-15 kya. What I don't understand is why are you so eager to prove that Hg E was primitive and unarticulated at that time, while I'm the one proposing (low probability and insane) theory that M-78 had developed and rich proto culture and language ~8 kya, which remnants can be still seen in todays Albania, and only there.

As I see Albanian E-V13 and Kabyle M-81 merge back in M-35. It's a very long shot.

One could also fit more theories, because both Abanians and Kabyle have relationship through other halpogroups present in both peoples. There is a northern relationship through R1, and Eastern relationship thorough J1. It is possible that one of the traits was shared to both peoples by Hg E, and the other by Hg R.... etc...
It is also possible, that cultural similarities are coincidental. For linguistic similarities, I don't know if there are any, that would be a job for someone fluent in both languages.

FBS
24-12-13, 17:30
:beer1: It would be great if this DNA mess resolves during our lifetime. So many new and interesting things to hear, ans so much history to rewrite :)

Yes, I see the difference today, as there is a difference between Polish and Indian R1a. But as there is a split-off point for R1a like 5000 years ago, there must have been a split-off point for M-78 lineages maybe even up to 10-15 kya. What I don't understand is why are you so eager to prove that Hg E was primitive and unarticulated at that time, while I'm the one proposing (low probability and insane) theory that M-78 had developed and rich proto culture and language ~8 kya, which remnants can be still seen in todays Albania, and only there.

As I see Albanian E-V13 and Kabyle M-81 merge back in M-35. It's a very long shot.

One could also fit more theories, because both Abanians and Kabyle have relationship through other halpogroups present in both peoples. There is a northern relationship through R1, and Eastern relationship thorough J1. It is possible that one of the traits was shared to both peoples by Hg E, and the other by Hg R.... etc...
It is also possible, that cultural similarities are coincidental. For linguistic similarities, I don't know if there are any, that would be a job for someone fluent in both languages.

There is no J1 in Kosovo Albanians, it is J2b2, an if there is any J1 in other Albanians it is negligible, so please do not go wild guessing and create a theory based on a photo. Plus you know nothing about Albanian costumes, culture or language.

Sile
24-12-13, 20:12
There is no J1 in Kosovo Albanians, it is J2b2, an if there is any J1 in other Albanians it is negligible, so please do not go wild guessing and create a theory based on a photo. Plus you know nothing about Albanian costumes, culture or language.

maybe correct on genetics but clothing as per Ike post and others posted, looks to me like berber dress, berber cap ( fez), berber jewelry. this "eastern algerian berber" people looks very appealing as the source for albanians.

Ike
24-12-13, 22:13
@FSB

I don't know what are you trying to achieve here. It is clear that there is some similarity on those pictures. Yes, I agree they can be coincidental. It would be better if you were more creative trying to disprove the theory, than to neglect what is obvious. Attitude like that gets you nowhere. You can't go selective, denying what you don't like because it doesn't fit some of national concepts and ideas that dwell in your mind. That way you'll never find out the true history of your ancestors.

BTW, any link of European and African subclades of Hg E is of great help in determining the time and point of entry of E people in Europe.

Bardhyl
25-12-13, 03:52
@FSB

I don't know what are you trying to achieve here. It is clear that there is some similarity on those pictures. Yes, I agree they can be coincidental. It would be better if you were more creative trying to disprove the theory, than to neglect what is obvious. Attitude like that gets you nowhere. You can't go selective, denying what you don't like because it doesn't fit some of national concepts and ideas that dwell in your mind. That way you'll never find out the true history of your ancestors.

BTW, any link of European and African subclades of Hg E is of great help in determining the time and point of entry of E people in Europe.

The only concrete evidence for this at the moment is the presence of the E-V13 subclade, commonest in the southern Balkans today, at a 7000-year old Neolithic site in north-east Spain, which was tested by Lacan et al (2011). (Source eupedia.com E Haplogroup)

according to eupedia map and description (link below) it is supposed that e-v13 (particularly farming habits) entered south balkan around 6300-5800 bce. The rest of balkan (particularly adria coast, west greece, albania, kosovo, bulgaria and romania) around 5800-5300 bce. This is the neolithic theory. Then there is also a paleolithic theory which is described at the link below on the end of the page.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml


Yes sure E Hg has its ancestors somewhere where they divided I guess as other HG also do.
Just please take into consideration also that Albanians (Northwest greece, Albania, west macedonia, kosovo, and south monenegro, and south serbia) don't only have this Hg but have also J2b at a percentage approximately 16-20 %, and also i2a especially in Albania at approximately 12%, and interestingly r1b especially in kosovo at approximately 21%.) Some r1a surely there is too at approximately 9% (albania) and 3-5 % in kosovo if I am not mistaking.

I would be more interested to find out about Hg in todays macedonia because the high E and J may come from albanians who live there in west macedonia and who make at approximately 25-30% of the population.

Bardhyl
25-12-13, 05:44
Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Bosniacs... all have significant E-V13 (of course less than Geg Albanians). But these people don't have clothing and habits as Middle East/North African populations. We can see similarity in Albanian clothing/habits as Middle East/North African populations (and some Caucasus too).

there is one point, Albanians (which live in south serbia, south and south-east montenegro, west macedonia, northwest greece and south greece(arvanits), west macedonia, kosovo and albania and also arberesh in italy) could keep some very old traditions which is good. The branch of E, especially e-v13 is in europe at least 6000 bce assumed, read E hg in eupedia. So assuming that 8000 year old assumingly E traditions could be still in todays albanians is pretty hypothetical isnt it, even though its an honour of you guys assuming this, but it seems very far away taken.

Thanks for the 8000 year old traditions honour, but i doubt its true.

If todays albanians have todays tradition from old traditions, then its probably from southern illyrians. Which would be like 3000-2000 year old which is a bit closer historically isn't it.

albanopolis
25-12-13, 07:56
To a large extent Albanians are continuity of Illyrians. After slavs came to the ballkans infusion of slavic, turkish and gypsy blood also happened. So I would say Albanians today are 80% Illyrians.

Garrick
25-12-13, 12:36
To a large extent Albanians are continuity of Illyrians. After slavs came to the ballkans infusion of slavic, turkish and gypsy blood also happened. So I would say Albanians today are 80% Illyrians.

It is fiction because today's Geg Albanians have the smallest percent of I2a in whole Balkans.

And strong theory is that Illyrians were I2a/R1a carriers, as Thracians.

It is mystery why Geg Albanians have very small percent I2a (in Kosovo less than 5%!!!).

All people in the Balkans, not only Serbs/Bosniacs/Croats have significant I2a, and Romanians, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Tsintsars, Greeks, Pomaks etc.

Because Gegs don't have I2a there are opinions that they are not even from the Balkans (if we look at the longer period).

Bardhyl
25-12-13, 13:54
It is fiction because today's Geg Albanians have the smallest percent of I2a in whole Balkans.

And strong theory is that Illyrians were I2a/R1a carriers, as Thracians.

It is mystery why Geg Albanians have very small percent I2a (in Kosovo less than 5%!!!).

All people in the Balkans, not only Serbs/Bosniacs/Croats have significant I2a, and Romanians, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Tsintsars, Greeks, Pomaks etc.

Because Gegs don't have I2a there are opinions that they are not even from the Balkans (if we look at the longer period).

Yes and thats very positive, because i2a and r1a most of it came with slavs, if you look at i2a and r1a distribution most of it is in slavic countries, and there is a thread of i2a specific where you can see that the theory is widely accepted that i2a/r1a was a slavic mixture becuase i2a ukraine 20% ans belarus 17% thats more in total numbers than the whole balkan i2a, so ukraine, belarus, russia, czech, poland, slovakia, slovenia, croatia, serbia, bosnia, macedonia, and also greece and albania, most of their i2a is of slavic, due to the large distribution of i2a in slavic countries, in all countries together with r1a,

no one is saying r1a or i2a wasnt in balkan, but most (70-80%) of it came with slavs, because of the fact that those countries speak slavic today is a strong argument that their genes are more slavic because they couldnt resist to change the language, slavic invasion happend recently which would show his genes today, the strong genetic distribution of those two genes in all slavic countries, slavic were also in greece and albania, but those countries could resist to change the language because they were numerous, and the weak distribution of r1a/i2a in those countries shows why they could resist.

In times of illyria, population didnt consist of millions, so it wasnt hard for slavs to take the overhand, in northern regions but albania survived because albania and kosovo is mountanious and also the stronger argument is some illyrians of northern tribes came, also a lot illyrians tribes went to italy, they were like 2-3 centuries protected by Roma at the coast of dalmatia and istria, but later slavs also entered those regions which forced people to go italy, because they already new the italic language.

slavic countries: after destroying historical people, dont even dream to claim their history,

I recommend you to read whole thread of i2a, and also i2 hg in eupedia,

I think its funny how south slavs want to deny their heritage, i mean honestly i would be proud to belong to the biggest family in europe, slavic countries are more numerous then any other family, they have history, and more important they make history today.
I dont know where your problem is, sure slavs came, but before they came they were somewhere, rather than fighting for a heritage which will never belong to you, why dont you fight finding out what slavs did before, how could they become so numerous, i mean its like roman empire in ancient times,

like today balkan people migrate to western european countries because of economical reason, thats not a crime thats human and completely normal.

Garrick
25-12-13, 16:19
Yes and thats very positive, because i2a and r1a most of it came with slavs, if you look at i2a and r1a distribution most of it is in slavic countries, and there is a thread of i2a specific where you can see that the theory is widely accepted that i2a/r1a was a slavic mixture becuase i2a ukraine 20% ans belarus 17% thats more in total numbers than the whole balkan i2a, so ukraine, belarus, russia, czech, poland, slovakia, slovenia, croatia, serbia, bosnia, macedonia, and also greece and albania, most of their i2a is of slavic, due to the large distribution of i2a in slavic countries, in all countries together with r1a,

no one is saying r1a or i2a wasnt in balkan, but most (70-80%) of it came with slavs, because of the fact that those countries speak slavic today is a strong argument that their genes are more slavic because they couldnt resist to change the language, slavic invasion happend recently which would show his genes today, the strong genetic distribution of those two genes in all slavic countries, slavic were also in greece and albania, but those countries could resist to change the language because they were numerous, and the weak distribution of r1a/i2a in those countries shows why they could resist.

In times of illyria, population didnt consist of millions, so it wasnt hard for slavs to take the overhand, in northern regions but albania survived because albania and kosovo is mountanious and also the stronger argument is some illyrians of northern tribes came, also a lot illyrians tribes went to italy, they were like 2-3 centuries protected by Roma at the coast of dalmatia and istria, but later slavs also entered those regions which forced people to go italy, because they already new the italic language.

slavic countries: after destroying historical people, dont even dream to claim their history,

I recommend you to read whole thread of i2a, and also i2 hg in eupedia,

I think its funny how south slavs want to deny their heritage, i mean honestly i would be proud to belong to the biggest family in europe, slavic countries are more numerous then any other family, they have history, and more important they make history today.
I dont know where your problem is, sure slavs came, but before they came they were somewhere, rather than fighting for a heritage which will never belong to you, why dont you fight finding out what slavs did before, how could they become so numerous, i mean its like roman empire in ancient times,

like today balkan people migrate to western european countries because of economical reason, thats not a crime thats human and completely normal.

And Thracians/Dacians, and Illyrians were I2a/R1a people, mostly.

Albanian hypothesis about Illyrians as descedents of Albanians is unprovable, from this perspective it is fiction.

Bardhyl
25-12-13, 19:40
And Thracians/Dacians, and Illyrians were I2a/R1a people, mostly.

Albanian hypothesis about Illyrians as descedents of Albanians is unprovable, from this perspective it is fiction.
There is one thing for sure that albanian is a paleo balkan language which is supported by most linguists,would be thraco-dacian or thraco-illyrian.
or you want to say that thracs dacs or illyrian spoke slavic, and if r1a/i2a was there then what were slavs? J2 or e-v13? Lol you gotta be kidding me and yourself.

Your hypotheses have no linguistic, cultural, or historical ground.
you can believe that south slavs are thraco(daco)-illyrian, same as you can believe in ghosts, vampires or whatever you want no one can stop you from believing.

Ike
25-12-13, 21:29
1. You guys should first decide what people are you calling Illyrians. That's where the first problems arise, because even the ancient authors disagree.

2. Even if all Illyrians were 100 % something like R1a or whatever ( let's say Hg N) that doesn't mean that there was no E-V13 in Balkans.

3. I would not say that it is sure that Albanian is paleo language. Yes, of all the others (Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek...) it has the biggest chance to be, but just because we can't explain the origin of Albanian language that doesn't mean it is derived from Thracian or Illyrian by default. We know very little about those languages, so we have to be very careful when making such statements. Even if there were similarities between Proto-Albanian and Thracian, they may just be the products of centuries/millenniums of cohabitation. We're not even sure if that part of Albanian language that is in question is in fact theirs. It may be that E-V13 came with their own language here on Balkans, and some of them were slowly Illyricized, and started speaking paleo-European language of Hg I only 3kya. It may be that remnants of archaic language in Albanian is not E-V13 origin, but foreign I2 or I1 component. The possibilities are so numerous that it's almost futile to guess. I'd rather restrain myself from giving statements that include "sure" until more search is done, and more history is revealed.

Sile
25-12-13, 21:30
There is one thing for sure that albanian is a paleo balkan language which is supported by most linguists,would be thraco-dacian or thraco-illyrian.
or you want to say that thracs dacs or illyrian spoke slavic, and if r1a/i2a was there then what were slavs? J2 or e-v13? Lol you gotta be kidding me and yourself.

Your hypotheses have no linguistic, cultural, or historical ground.
you can believe that south slavs are thraco(daco)-illyrian, same as you can believe in ghosts, vampires or whatever you want no one can stop you from believing.

More likely albanians would be Macedonian-Epirote , as per the closeness shown of last weeks studies on Basal Eurasian ancestral population. if you say albanians are so old in europe, then albanians cannot be illyrians because they are central european and came late into balkans. ..........Dardanians, paeonions, macedonians, epirotes, molossians are all older peoples and all in the vicinity of Albania.

But all coastal albania was greek in the late bronze-age

Sile
25-12-13, 21:33
1. You guys should first decide what people are you calling Illyrians. That's where the first problems arise, because even the ancient authors disagree.

2. Even if all Illyrians were 100 % something like R1a or whatever ( let's say Hg N) that doesn't mean that there was no E-V13 in Balkans.

3. I would not say that it is sure that Albanian is paleo language. Yes, of all the others (Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek...) it has the biggest chance to be, but just because we can't explain the origin of Albanian language that doesn't mean it is derived from Thracian or Illyrian by default. We know very little about those languages, so we have to be very careful when making such statements. Even if there were similarities between Proto-Albanian and Thracian, they may just be the products of centuries/millenniums of cohabitation. We're not even sure if that part of Albanian language that is in question is in fact theirs. It may be that E-V13 came with their own language here on Balkans, and some of them were slowly Illyricized, and started speaking paleo-European language of Hg I only 3kya. It may be that remnants of archaic language in Albanian is not E-V13 origin, but foreign I2 or I1 component. The possibilities are so numerous that it's almost futile to guess. I'd rather restrain myself from giving statements that include "sure" until more search is done, and more history is revealed.

linguistist know zero about illyrian language but say that albanian fits with a lot of Dacian, Vlach and macedonian words...........but these could be borrowed words

mihaitzateo
25-12-13, 21:44
linguistist know zero about illyrian language but say that albanian fits with a lot of Dacian, Vlach and macedonian words...........but these could be borrowed words

Yes but Romanian also fits 20% of the Slavic words and is having borrowings or common words with Old Slavic,for example as you call in folk language Christmas,which is cognate with Old Russian.
I think thraco-dacian,thraco-ilyrian were Satem language,as Balto-Slavic languages are and as Albanian language is and these people formed not far from each other or even being mixed,in same areas.
I noticed at some Russians ,on K36,significant Balkanic admixture on K36 (around 10%).
A thing is clear,Romanian,Slavic have common words with Iranic,which is another Satem language.
Now Romania is told to be Centum language,but we are telling to hundred suta,so is weird.
Thing is,both Albanians and Balto-Slavic people can claim heritage from Satem people,as Thraco-Daco-Ilyrians were.
Another thing,Romanian and Slavic have common words,even if few,with Iranic.
No idea about Albanian.
EDIT:
Another weird thing,if you take K36 results as good,Ukrainians and Russians I have seen have significant East Balkan admixture,around 8-10% while Balts,around 5%.

Bardhyl
26-12-13, 00:11
Okay, guys this is just a forum so everything we say are hypotheses, nothing can be certainly known, the only thing we have of illyrians is some names and tribes and some gods of them, and they fit with albanian at least some of them, on the basis of this I was argueing, most scholars certainly believe that it is a paleo balkan language, we may never know for sure, because illyrians didnt give us something where we can built on besides their names etc...
You can look Illyrian words in albanian on wikipedia, also same for thrac words there are also some words which represent albanian words, same for dacian there are some similarities, I never claimed or try to claim that it is a direct descent or smth like that but that it has similarities with those languages which we will never certainly know for 100%, because of lack of ressources.

And Sile
illyrians were created (first mentioned) around 1000 bc (3000 years from today) as people who live in north of greece, and most of Albanian HG are known to be for longer than 3000 years in the balkans, E-V13 at least 8000 years, J2b approximately around 5000 years in balkan. And R1b especially in kosovo is 21% but I was to lazy to make research on that yet. But it should be older than 3000 years( first mentioning of illyrians) in the balkans. so i dont think that you can claim that there is no relation at all, because this is just false.

Sile
26-12-13, 01:36
And Sile
illyrians were created (first mentioned) around 1000 bc (3000 years from today) as people who live in north of greece, and most of Albanian HG are known to be for longer than 3000 years in the balkans, E-V13 at least 8000 years, J2b approximately around 5000 years in balkan. And R1b especially in kosovo is 21% but I was to lazy to make research on that yet. But it should be older than 3000 years( first mentioning of illyrians) in the balkans. so i dont think that you can claim that there is no relation at all, because this is just false.

This is wrong, the illyrians where created between eastern austria and hungaria ............history by historians say they advanced from north to south reaching kosovo about 400BC where they started fighting the macedonians for 50 years.....so macedonians where already blocking the illyrians path

adamo
26-12-13, 01:49
Bardhyl= fail. And Sile, prove hey originated as north as Hungary or Austria, I've already submitted my theories on his and am currently on vacation lol.

albanopolis
26-12-13, 01:56
linguistist know zero about illyrian language but say that albanian fits with a lot of Dacian, Vlach and macedonian words...........but these could be borrowed words
You need to do something else instead of discussing Illyrians. There is strong linguistic evidence that you are not able to understand since you are not an Albanian speaker. There is written Roman and Greek evidence that points to the relation of Albanians with Illyrians which you don't know. One needs not to go to Alaska to learn that's cold there. Sombody here wrote that Illyrians were R1a haplogroup. Who did the test? My point is that if you don't believe it, thats fine, but stop making ridiculous argumens. We try to keep these forums informative and knowledge based.

Bardhyl
26-12-13, 02:12
adamo, Tell me when you write the book about it =) and sile when you reply be sure you read my post and understood my post, and not do cherry picking words. my created (is connected with the brackets MENTIONED by greeks)

Scodra was the capital of Illyrians, and it is in todays albania Shkodra. all relevant illyrian kings reigned from that region, not anywhere else.

Dardanian King: Bardhyl- White star, the translation of this name comes thanks to the albanian language

adamo
26-12-13, 03:09
I agree with Bardhyl; they were present as far south as north-central Albania without a doubt.

Garrick
26-12-13, 04:07
There is one thing for sure that albanian is a paleo balkan language which is supported by most linguists,would be thraco-dacian or thraco-illyrian.
or you want to say that thracs dacs or illyrian spoke slavic, and if r1a/i2a was there then what were slavs? J2 or e-v13? Lol you gotta be kidding me and yourself.

Your hypotheses have no linguistic, cultural, or historical ground.
you can believe that south slavs are thraco(daco)-illyrian, same as you can believe in ghosts, vampires or whatever you want no one can stop you from believing.

Thracians/Dacians were I2a/R1a people. Illyrians probably. Only Macedonians could be mostly E-V13.

I was trying to find link E-V13 with Illyrians. Some Albanian and another authors wrote about Ancient Egypt, Anatolia, Caucasus, Sicily, Epirus etc. However problem is that link E-V13 with Illyrians is thin. Surely among the Thracians and Illyrians were E-V13 but to a small extent, together with J2. Thracians and Illyrians probably were dominantly I2a/R1a people.

Of course for language today there is more evidence than yesterday.

I read a lot Albanian sources about link between Albanian and Illyrian/Thracian.

However link has never been proven.

There are various hypothesis however it is logical that I2a/R1a people have similar languages to some extent.

Then I saw solution. One my friend Luthuanian gave me proofs:

Thracian/Dacian as Illyrian has same or similar words as Balto Slavic languages.

There is one of theory that Thracian is Baltic language, and that theory has basis.

For example:

balios (Thracian), baltus (Luthuanian), belo (Serbian), white (English)
zilma (Thracian), zelme (Latvian), zelen (Serbian), greens (English)
udra (Thracian), ūdra (Lithanian), vidra (Serbian), otter (English)
gin (Thracian), gnins (Latvian), gnjiti (Serbian), spoil, decay (English)
brink (Thracian), brinkti (Lithuanian), breknuti (Serbian), swell (English)
kiri (Thracian), giria, gire (Lithuanian), gora (Serbian), mountain forest (English)
saltas, zaldas (Thracian), zelt (Latvian), zlato (Serbian), gold (English)
zum, zuml (Thracian), zmaj, zmija (Serbian), dragon, snake (English)
laza (Thracian), laz, lazina (Serbian), clearing in forest (English)

Etc.

There are a lot of authors who claim that Thracian is Balto Slavic language, and it is not new, for example several authors and books:

Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan Languages. Moscow, 1978.
Fasmer, M. Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.
Duridanov, I. Ezikyt na trakite, Sofia, 1976.

If someone sees geography he identifie that Balto Slavic people and Thracians easily can be linked geneticaly and linguistic:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7NGQJGr7m8g/TyJscIS9fXI/AAAAAAAAD2c/HQA663Pz5_4/s640/map44gd.gif

Balto-Slavic people and Thracians are R1a/I2a people, and they spoke languages which belong Balto-Slavic group.

It is so logical.

It is very difficult that Illyrians were not R1a/I2a people.

But Macedonians maybe, it is possible that Macedonians were mostly E-V13/J2 people.

adamo
26-12-13, 04:34
I say Illyrians and their derivatives were I2a with a later different source location for R1a arriving in the Balkans from PIE homeland. This is contradictory because most experts say Illyrians were somehow indo-Europeans. There is virtually nill evidence to back this claim though, to me the Illyrians were original prehistoric dwellers of coastal Adriatic Dalmatia. I don't mean dinosaurs by prehistoric btw, I've explained already. R1a arrived much later than R1b from Ukrainian refuge (whereas R1b was already in Iberian refuge) and R1a would heavily expand across Eastern Europe in every direction. Within the past 2000 years there has been significant fusion of these Slavic migrants with the original indigenous people of the area, thus creating this evidence Bardhyl and company keep referring to about some Slavic linguistic unity of the I2a/R1a.

"All the remaining tribes except perhaps the Romanized Vlachs were Slavicised in the course of the Middle Ages, while modern Albanian might have descended from a southern Illyrian dialect."

the exintction of Illyrian language in 200 A.D., the Slavic migrations of 700 A.D. (Middle Ages); that sounds about right to me. I mean, when do you think Slavs reached Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia etc. via Ukraine and Russian plains? There migrations towards east and Central Europe are catalogued for gods sake lol; not that long ago.

adamo
26-12-13, 04:44
They would not have been heavily E-V13. Nor J2b and neither R1a which would arrive later to the area bringing linguistic and cultural shifts. They were in my opinion, I2a-M423 Balkans. Also, I find the so-called "Illyrian" Iapygian culture to be incorrect as the Iapygians were Cretans bombarded with J2a, although the 20% I in the Foggia region IS curious. There is also 15% I just to the north in the Molise region but it is all Lombard I1 and no I2 at all.

adamo
26-12-13, 05:14
I have multiple sources claiming that the original I-P37.2 inhabitants of the Balkans experienced a language/culture shift/fusion after the later arrival of R1a men to the region from the Ukrainian refuge. The genetics simply indicate it; I2a= Balkans refuge. R1a= Ukrainian refuge source location.

Garrick
26-12-13, 05:20
You need to do something else instead of discussing Illyrians. There is strong linguistic evidence that you are not able to understand since you are not an Albanian speaker. There is written Roman and Greek evidence that points to the relation of Albanians with Illyrians which you don't know. One needs not to go to Alaska to learn that's cold there. Sombody here wrote that Illyrians were R1a haplogroup. Who did the test? My point is that if you don't believe it, thats fine, but stop making ridiculous argumens. We try to keep these forums informative and knowledge based.

Sile reads the forum, but I'm not sure did you read this:


I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.

During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.

The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).

After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

I used to think that I2a1b in the Dinaric Alps were the remnants of the original hunter-gatherers and that only the I2a1b outside the Dinaric Alps and Balkans were integrated to the Corded Ware culture and became Proto-Slavs, then Slavs. However there is so little difference between the Dinaric and other Eastern European I2a1b, all belonging to the same deep subclade (L621>CTS4002>...>L147.2) that they must all descend from a fairly recent ancestor and have expanded no earlier than 3000 to 1500 BCE.

Bardhyl
26-12-13, 05:34
I dont know who is rating me negative, but please stop, only because of not agreeing with me, or not sharing my opinion isnt a reason to rate me negative,
I also use the rating system but only for positive rating when I like a post or when it seems plausibel to a certain degree like i just rated positive adamo post #201.

Garrick
26-12-13, 05:52
I have multiple sources claiming that the original I-P37.2 inhabitants of the Balkans experienced a language/culture shift/fusion after the later arrival of R1a men to the region from the Ukrainian refuge. The genetics simply indicate it; I2a= Balkans refuge. R1a= Ukrainian refuge source location.

Do you really think that I2a were in Balkans and Slavs in North to 5-7 century AD?

And these two population didn't have mix (they were separate according you)?

And then magically R1a entered in Balkans and I2a entered in Moldavia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Russia etc.

You can see the map #200, page eight. You can see Balto Slavic and Thracians were linked.

From Baltic sea to border of Aegean R1a and I2a were mixed. It was very long term process, not suddenly event.

Suddenly event wasn't possible.

And you can read Maciamo's theme:

I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

If you want I can send you several scientific articles from relevant world journals.

Simplified hypotheses are easy to think about them, but often are not real. Things are more complex.

When R1a and I2a mixed. It was process which had very long term.

Therefore someone can see that all languages with large space belong Balto Slavic, and live and extinguished languages.

And it is clear that I2a "lost language" don't exist.

Do not get confused Romanization.

Same R1a/I2a/E-V13 etc. Balkan inhabitants are Romanized as they who were not. Maybe one brother is Romanized and another continue to talk some branch of Balto Slavic.

Therefore today for example Serbs and Romanians have very similiar haplogroups and Romanian speak Latin and Serbs speak Balto Slavic. If not were Romanization, Serbs and Romanians would spoke same language and maybe they would be one nation.

Bardhyl
26-12-13, 11:04
I refer you to the i2a-din thread, link below, there you see some possible conclusions about this

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans

adamo
26-12-13, 12:29
I never ever said I thought I2a descended from as far afield as Ukraine or Poland lol. The highest I2a diversity seems to be Czech Republic/Slovakia and the Bosnian refuge itself with similar values.

Garrick
26-12-13, 14:54
I never ever said I thought I2a descended from as far afield as Ukraine or Poland lol. The highest I2a diversity seems to be Czech Republic/Slovakia and the Bosnian refuge itself with similar values.

From Aegean sea to Baltic sea lived people who spoke Baltic language or Balto Slavic who were mix R1a/I2a and in smaller extent another haplogroups (I1, E-V13 etc).

It is mistake that someone watches the borders today's Lithuania and Latvia. I gave the pictures where every can see that Baltic people and Thracians had continuity from Baltic to Aegean sea.

In the topic about Thracians spoke Balto Slavic I will give hundreds of examples Thracian words and their similarity with Lithuanian/Latvian and Serbian/South Slavic words, and more.

adamo
26-12-13, 15:32
I disagree personally that they are a Slavic package.a

Ike
26-12-13, 16:13
there is one point, Albanians (which live in south serbia, south and south-east montenegro, west macedonia, northwest greece and south greece(arvanits), west macedonia, kosovo and albania and also arberesh in italy) could keep some very old traditions which is good. The branch of E, especially e-v13 is in europe at least 6000 bce assumed, read E hg in eupedia. So assuming that 8000 year old assumingly E traditions could be still in todays albanians is pretty hypothetical isnt it, even though its an honour of you guys assuming this, but it seems very far away taken.

Thanks for the 8000 year old traditions honour, but i doubt its true.

If todays albanians have todays tradition from old traditions, then its probably from southern illyrians. Which would be like 3000-2000 year old which is a bit closer historically isn't it.

Agree that more recent is more probable. Problem is we don't have much on pre Roman Balkans. In one of my previous posts I started with Kabyle, although I also agree it's a very long shot. Anything that could be related should be considered as possible.



And Sile
illyrians were created (first mentioned) around 1000 bc (3000 years from today) as people who live in north of greece, and most of Albanian HG are known to be for longer than 3000 years in the balkans, E-V13 at least 8000 years, J2b approximately around 5000 years in balkan.

We assume that because it's logical, but there is no hard evidence of E-V13 here on Balkans in BC era. It would be very nice if Albanian or Greek archaeologists send some old skeletons to the analysis, so we can confirm that.



You need to do something else instead of discussing Illyrians. There is strong linguistic evidence that you are not able to understand since you are not an Albanian speaker. There is written Roman and Greek evidence that points to the relation of Albanians with Illyrians which you don't know.

Written evidence that we don't know about? Ok, do present.

Ike
26-12-13, 16:25
I dont know who is rating me negative, but please stop, only because of not agreeing with me, or not sharing my opinion isnt a reason to rate me negative,
I also use the rating system but only for positive rating when I like a post or when it seems plausibel to a certain degree like i just rated positive adamo post #201.

I don't even think that rating system is supposed to be used like that.
It's one thing to agree or disagree with someones posts, but it's not the reason to give someone a negative or positive rating.
Negative rating is supposed to reflect the quality of someone's post and pinpoint ******, abusers, etc, not the number of debates someone is having?
Admins should introduce agree/disagree button for that other purpose.

mihaitzateo
27-12-13, 01:05
I think there should be 2 discussions,one about Illyrian language- Albanian language continuity and another one about Illyrian genetics-Albanian genetics continuity.
I doubt E-V13 is linked with Illyrians,I think is in Europe from before Illyrians came.
As for I2A,I think is demonstrated enough that was in Europe before Thraco-Dacians or Illyrians came.
On autosomal genetics,who knows what admixtures Illyrians were carrying?

Bardhyl
27-12-13, 03:34
I don't even think that rating system is supposed to be used like that.
It's one thing to agree or disagree with someones posts, but it's not the reason to give someone a negative or positive rating.
Negative rating is supposed to reflect the quality of someone's post and pinpoint ******, abusers, etc, not the number of debates someone is having?
Admins should introduce agree/disagree button for that other purpose.

Thanks ike fully agree with you, i quote ike:" It's one thing to agree or disagree with someones posts, but it's not the reason to give someone a negative or positive rating.
Negative rating is supposed to reflect the quality of someone's post and pinpoint ******, abusers, etc, not the number of debates someone is having?"

mihaitzateo
27-12-13, 11:39
To continue the discussion,since it seems people are not posting here to follow the idea I have started to tell:
On genetics,I think is pretty clear that ancient Thracians and Illyrians were J2 clades bearers,besides other HGs.
Now,if you take Albania Y DNA lines,you can see that J2 is quite significant.
To tell that J2 is from Ancient Greeks,I think is an over-simplifcation.
I think most of that J2 is from Thraco-Ilyrians and was brought by them,in Albania.
There is also about 9% R1A,but according to some Albanian I have talked with,Tosks are having about 15% R1A1.
So I think most of this is still from Thracians and Ilyrians.
As for E-V13 I think was in Albania before Thracians and Ilyrians came and that population was conquered and assimilated by Thraco-Ilyrians.
You can notice from the wars that Burebista went against Celts,that were living in Balkans between Ilyrians,that is not said that Burebista and Dacians attacked Illyrians.
So I think this is a proof that Thracians and Illyrians were populations very closed and their languages had a high degree of mutual inteligibility.
If you take what words are known from Thracian,are cognates from them with Albanian.
Even if some people will dislike what I will tell,I think Iranians/Persians,old Iranians/Persians,were quite closed to Thracians and Illyrians.
You can still notice some resemblances between folk costumes and music from North Iran and folk costumes and music from Romania,Albania and South Slavic countries.
Sure,now Arabs conquered Iran so the people there are very mixed with Arabs,they do not look anymore as ancient Persians were looking like.
As for Balto-Slavs,I think they were closed people to Thracians and Illyrians since are no recorded wars between Thracians and Illyrians on one side and Balto-Slavs on another side.
And when Slavs came and settled in Balkans (with large numbers of them settling in Dacia/Romania and switching to Dacian/Romanian ethnicity,since lots of genetics in Romanians is of Slavic origins) Dacians did not fought with them,but became allied and is known that it existed a South-Romanian-Bulgarian Empire.
There is also the fact that on K36,Russians and Ukrainians I saw are scoring 8-11% Balkanic admixture,so this means that it was either a conquest from Thracians and Illyrians of Balto-Slavs,but this is not recorded anywhere in history,or that these people lived together and mixed between them,for a long time.
I also saw the results of 2 people from Baltic countries (Latvians/Lithuanians,not Estonians) and both were having 5-6% Balkanic admixture,which supports what is wrote above.
So I think the problem of whom are descendants of Thraco-Illyrians is more complex,that telling that just a people is descendant of Illyrians and also,that are no pure descendants of Thraco-Illyrians.

Garrick
27-12-13, 16:31
To continue the discussion,since it seems people are not posting here to follow the idea I have started to tell:
On genetics,I think is pretty clear that ancient Thracians and Illyrians were J2 clades bearers,besides other HGs.
Now,if you take Albania Y DNA lines,you can see that J2 is quite significant.
To tell that J2 is from Ancient Greeks,I think is an over-simplifcation.
I think most of that J2 is from Thraco-Ilyrians and was brought by them,in Albania.
There is also about 9% R1A,but according to some Albanian I have talked with,Tosks are having about 15% R1A1.
So I think most of this is still from Thracians and Ilyrians.
As for E-V13 I think was in Albania before Thracians and Ilyrians came and that population was conquered and assimilated by Thraco-Ilyrians.
You can notice from the wars that Burebista went against Celts,that were living in Balkans between Ilyrians,that is not said that Burebista and Dacians attacked Illyrians.
So I think this is a proof that Thracians and Illyrians were populations very closed and their languages had a high degree of mutual inteligibility.
If you take what words are known from Thracian,are cognates from them with Albanian.
Even if some people will dislike what I will tell,I think Iranians/Persians,old Iranians/Persians,were quite closed to Thracians and Illyrians.
You can still notice some resemblances between folk costumes and music from North Iran and folk costumes and music from Romania,Albania and South Slavic countries.
Sure,now Arabs conquered Iran so the people there are very mixed with Arabs,they do not look anymore as ancient Persians were looking like.
As for Balto-Slavs,I think they were closed people to Thracians and Illyrians since are no recorded wars between Thracians and Illyrians on one side and Balto-Slavs on another side.
And when Slavs came and settled in Balkans (with large numbers of them settling in Dacia/Romania and switching to Dacian/Romanian ethnicity,since lots of genetics in Romanians is of Slavic origins) Dacians did not fought with them,but became allied and is known that it existed a South-Romanian-Bulgarian Empire.
There is also the fact that on K36,Russians and Ukrainians I saw are scoring 8-11% Balkanic admixture,so this means that it was either a conquest from Thracians and Illyrians of Balto-Slavs,but this is not recorded anywhere in history,or that these people lived together and mixed between them,for a long time.
I also saw the results of 2 people from Baltic countries (Latvians/Lithuanians,not Estonians) and both were having 5-6% Balkanic admixture,which supports what is wrote above.
So I think the problem of whom are descendants of Thraco-Illyrians is more complex,that telling that just a people is descendant of Illyrians and also,that are no pure descendants of Thraco-Illyrians.

Facts say that Illyrian language has no link with today's Albanian.

And Albanian linguists know, but it is less clear why there is a need of writing about continuity Illyrian and Albanian language, if only for debates it can be possible to debate about anything but we must have facts and strongholds.

Facts:

1. Illyrian ic CENTUM, Albanian is SATEM, and it is enough, but we give more.

2. Albanian first document was in 15 century (Paulus Angelus, 1462), Illyrian language was long gone before (millennium and two hundred years or more)

3. Albanian language has the most Balto Slavic words, for example Professor Gustav Mayer claimed that Albanian is brother of Latvian language, it can be linked probably because Albanian has borrowed much from Dacian, and Dacian was one of variant of the Thracian.

4. Albanian is the closest to Balto Slavic and Armenian (for Armenian there is link because about 15% Albanians have Armenian haplotype R1b ht35)

5. Albanian borrowed about 600 words of Latin

6. Albanian borrowed 1.100 words from Turkish, also Albanian has words from Afro-Asiatic languages

7. Only 30 words in Albanian can be brought to the Illyrian (about 1.000 Illyrian words is known), and it can be borrowed from other Balkan people who had closer link with Illyrian.

Due similarity Albanian with Dacian and Balto Slavic languages a lot of scientists think that original place ancestors of today's Albanian is somewhere in Romania (maybe it can be Bessarabia too, or some space in that region).

Geg Albanian haplogroups (today's) show that region ought to have very strong E-V13 and moderate J2, R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype, are these are three most significant Albanian haplogroups.

According today's knowledge about haplogroups Albanians probably lived somewhere in today's Romania or close in that region.

It is interesting that Albanians have the highest R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype in the Balkans, 14.7%, but Romanians have not much smaller, about 10.2%, (probably with big differences among regions).

It means that based in haplogroups and another things we can fairly precisely to locate place in Romania or somewhere in region from which Albanians came to the south Adriatic coast and neraby mountains. And it is possible that Albanians came after Illyrians merged with another tribes and disappeared from the hystorical scene.

From today's knowledge the most likely conclusion is Albanians can't have link with Illyrians.

mihaitzateo
27-12-13, 21:48
From Garrick post:

Facts?

According Lucotte et al. 2013, Albanians have 14.7% R1b ht35 (Armenian/Anatolian haplotype). It is the highest score in the Balkans.

You can see in Eupedia Albanian R1b is 16%. It means only 1.3% can be Celtic-Germanic.

I know, Geg Albanians have slightly higher percentage R1b.

Geg Albanians can have 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b, it is similar or less compared with other Balkan countries.

Tosk Albanians probably have smaller R1b Cetic Germanic.

For example at Serbs R1b ht35 is 2.3% (Lucotte et al.). It means Serbs have about 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b.

If we see R1b ht35 it shows that link between Albanians and Germans don't exist.

R1b ht35 Armenian/Anatolian haplotype (Lucotte et al.)

Albanians 14.7%
Greeks 13.2%
Romanians 10.3%
Hungarians 7.4%
Bulgarians 6.5%
Bosniacs 4.2%
Croats 3.1%
Serbs 2.3%
Austrians 1.1%
Germans 0
R1B ht35 is not Armenian in origins,but from Thraco-Ilyrians,in my opinion.
What people were living in Anatolia,not Thracians?
R1b-ht35 is also very high in North Iran.
And Armenians are also Satem speakers so they could also have been closed to Thraco-Ilyrians in the past.So how you know that actually R1b-Ht35 did not originated in North Iran,but in Armenia?
So actually this proves that Albanians are having a normal HG for Satem speakers.

MOESAN
27-12-13, 23:57
seemingly there is no consensus about the quality of illyrian language, being the cause in the paucity of well identified and long enough texts - the 'centum' quality of the language is more and more dubius and the first area attributed to the colonization by genuine Illyrians is going smallest and smallest - so they "lost" their "paternity" in the Urnfields (Lusacian and other forms) culture which is rather attributed to Veneti -the Veneti-Illyrians confusion is the cause of the 'centum' hypothesis - some scholars say now they were more akin to Thracians and Dacians-Getae, maybe Dardanians, on the 'satem' side even if not completely - North Illyricum was more venetic* than illyrian (so the similitude of some nortn-Illyricum placenames with river names of Lusace - the debate (hot sometimes, too hot I fear) is very confusing: modern Albanians were seemingly close ENOUGH (linguistically) to true Illyrians and to Thracians-Dacians - is that the proof they are DIRECT descendants of maritime Illyrians, I don't know - one can doubt, but?... their Y-DNA (today Albanians) keeps them close enough to Eastern Romanians (near Black Sea) but I HAVE NOT THE ANCIENT DNA OF GENUINE ILLYRIANS TO COMPARE SO... this discussion deserves cool exchanges of ideas and nothing more - when shall we know for sure???
*Veneti/Venedi seem having played a bigger role than I was thinking, at Urnfield times, and the diverse Veneti of Europe and Aeneti of N-Anatolia could be related since this period; according to B. SERGENT

Garrick
28-12-13, 00:04
From Garrick post:

R1B ht35 is not Armenian in origins,but from Thraco-Ilyrians,in my opinion.
What people were living in Anatolia,not Thracians?
R1b-ht35 is also very high in North Iran.
And Armenians are also Satem speakers so they could also have been closed to Thraco-Ilyrians in the past.So how you know that actually R1b-Ht35 did not originated in North Iran,but in Armenia?
So actually this proves that Albanians are having a normal HG for Satem speakers.

From scientific journal.

Lucatte et al (2013) designated R1b ht35 as Armenian haplotype.

Ht35 is a Y chromosome haplotype commonly found in male subjects originating from Armenia; that it is reason why it is named "The Armenian haplotype".

Authors claim that results support the hypothesis of an initial focus of ht35 in Armenia and a later propagation of ht35 bearing subjects in South European countries.

Agree for North Iran (Regueiro et al. find 21%), and this haplotype sharp declines toward south of Iran.

But in North Iran Armenian roots can be significant (today there is 80.000 Armenians in Iran but Armenians write that Armenian population is assimilated).

Sile
28-12-13, 00:15
seemingly there is no consensus about the quality of illyrian language, being the cause in the paucity of well identified and long enough texts - the 'centum' quality of the language is more and more dubius and the first area attributed to the colonization by genuine Illyrians is going smallest and smallest - so they "lost" their "paternity" in the Urnfields (Lusacian and other forms) culture which is rather attributed to Veneti -the Veneti-Illyrians confusion is the cause of the 'centum' hypothesis - some scholars say now they were more akin to Thracians and Dacians-Getae, maybe Dardanians, on the 'satem' side even if not completely - North Illyricum was more venetic* than illyrian (so the similitude of some nortn-Illyricum placenames with river names of Lusace - the debate (hot sometimes, too hot I fear) is very confusing: modern Albanians were seemingly close ENOUGH (linguistically) to true Illyrians and to Thracians-Dacians - is that the proof they are DIRECT descendants of maritime Illyrians, I don't know - one can doubt, but?... their Y-DNA (today Albanians) keeps them close enough to Eastern Romanians (near Black Sea) but I HAVE NOT THE ANCIENT DNA OF GENUINE ILLYRIANS TO COMPARE SO... this discussion deserves cool exchanges of ideas and nothing more - when shall we know for sure???
*Veneti/Venedi seem having played a bigger role than I was thinking, at Urnfield times, and the diverse Veneti of Europe and Aeneti of N-Anatolia could be related since this period; according to B. SERGENT

thanks

In regards to the term venedi, it was concluded recently that the venedi on the baltic sea and the Aestii on the baltic sea are the exact same people, same tribe, that is west-baltic speakers ( became baltic-prussians)
The reason on name difference relates to one historian naming them venedi because they lived near the sea, like adriatic veneti and armonic veneti, and so gave them a similar name, while the other historians named them correctly as aestii

Garrick
30-12-13, 02:26
I think there should be 2 discussions,one about Illyrian language- Albanian language continuity and another one about Illyrian genetics-Albanian genetics continuity.


There is no connection between Albanian and Illyrian. It was mistake Albanian scientists in time of Enver Hoxha. Albanian authorities from that time loved this hypothesis.

(Albanian scientists in time of Enver Hoxha were mistaken, trying to prove unprovable.)

But science has long refuted this hypothesis.

For example you can read in The prehistory of the Balkans, edited by John Boardman, Cambridge University Press:

Page 848

"...Illyrian and Phyrgian should be classed as Centum languages".

"On the one hand Thracian, and Dacian have one of the main Satem characteristics..."

...
And we know that
Albanian is Satem.

Science says that
Illyrian and Albanian belong two different branch of IE language making them mutually exclusive of one another.

Reputable Albanian linguists Bariqi, Çabej etc. write it in scientific papers.

Illyirian and Albanian languages have no connection, two different IE branches, and Illyrians and Albanians have no connection.

It is the end.

kamani
30-12-13, 04:59
this is becoming a joke now. People that don't even speak Albanian come here and talk with certainty about it.

Sile
30-12-13, 07:31
this is becoming a joke now. People that don't even speak Albanian come here and talk with certainty about it.

well you talk about it as a certainty that albanian is illyrian...yet there is no written illyrian text anywhere..........so who is trying to fool who?

the only reason for this B...Sh.. is that the albanians want to claim some ancient affinity with someone in the balkans

just link me to an illyrian script

Garrick
30-12-13, 23:38
this is becoming a joke now. People that don't even speak Albanian come here and talk with certainty about it.

But same argument. People that don't speak Illyrian come here and talk with certainty about it. Who here knows Illyrian? Nobody.

Every member of forum can participate in every theme and give contribution. Different opinions and arguments are normal.

I will give the opinion Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi. This linguist claims that Albanian language belongs to Satem group and Illyrian language belongs to Centum group. Since these two languages belongs two different groups then it is not possible for them to have some kind of genetic connection.

He thinks that Albanian is closer to Thracian which belongs the same Satem group.

However world respectable Danish linguist Holger Pedersen emphasizes that Albanian and Armenian languages are the closest languages between them.

This theory of Danish linguists is interesting because one from three main Geg Albanian haplogroups is R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype, where Lucotte et al find that 16% male Albanian population belong this haplogroup. It can be possible that R1b ht35 carriers imposed language to E and J carriers, despite the fact that E&J carriers were more numerous (today E & J are about 63% at Gegs in Kosovo). Albanian is mix lot of languages but it ca be possible that it has strong Armenian influence.

Ike
31-12-13, 04:35
Have E or J carriers spoken IE language throughout the neolithic? It seems to me very plausible that R1b was the culprit.

kamani
31-12-13, 04:40
well you talk about it as a certainty that albanian is illyrian...yet there is no written illyrian text anywhere..........so who is trying to fool who?

There is no certainty because most languages in Europe were not written, just spoken. But if you go back on this thread and other related ones without a bias mind, you'll see that it is the most probable hypothesis.


the only reason for this B...Sh.. is that the albanians want to claim some ancient affinity with someone in the balkans

have you ever considered that they actually have that ancient affinity.


just link me to an illyrian script
There are some words that have survived but you wouldn't know whether they sound Albanian or not; you don't speak Albanian. Go learn it and then come here with more credibility. Right now you have taken some strange personal angle to fight Albanians.

Ike
31-12-13, 05:20
He doesn't have to learn the whole language to know that. As we know, there is a very small number of words in Albanian language that is not of Greek, Slavic or Latin borrowing. Why don't we stick to that part?

We still don't know if even that part of Albanian vocabulary is in fact Albanian. It may be also borrowed from some ancient peoples that Albanians had contact with. Even if you find similarities between that "Albanian core" and Dacian or Thracian, that doesn't automatically mean that Albanians are Dacians or Thracians.

What if there was no Slavic languages on Earth, if their culture and language was extinct with no written data? Would it be OK then to say that Albanians were Slavs just because they have 20% Slavic words of their language?

Garrick
31-12-13, 07:44
Have E or J carriers spoken IE language throughout the neolithic? It seems to me very plausible that R1b was the culprit.

Some Albanian linguists were looking for a connection Albanian with Old Egyptian and Coptic. There are Afro Asiatic (Hamitic) words in Albanian.

R1b is R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype. For example Danish linguist Holger Pedersen emphasizes that Albanian and Armenian languages are the closest languages between them.

Main haplogroup today's Geg Albanians is E-V13 wit significant part of J2 and R1b,ht35.

Garrick
31-12-13, 07:50
He doesn't have to learn the whole language to know that. As we know, there is a very small number of words in Albanian language that is not of Greek, Slavic or Latin borrowing. Why don't we stick to that part?

We still don't know if even that part of Albanian vocabulary is in fact Albanian. It may be also borrowed from some ancient peoples that Albanians had contact with. Even if you find similarities between that "Albanian core" and Dacian or Thracian, that doesn't automatically mean that Albanians are Dacians or Thracians.

What if there was no Slavic languages on Earth, if their culture and language was extinct with no written data? Would it be OK then to say that Albanians were Slavs just because they have 20% Slavic words of their language?

Albanian has a lot of similarities with Dacian/Thracian and Balto Slavic languages.

It was borrowed from tihese languages, probably Albanians lived somewhere in today's Romania, Bessarabia or near in that region.

Albanian is Satem as Dacian/Thracian and Balto Slavic.

And Armenian is Satem.

Albanian borrowed words from Dacian/Thracian, Balto Slavic, Armenian, Latin, Greek, Turkish, Arabian etc.

skaheen15
18-01-14, 00:15
This issue of the Albanian language has always confused the heck out of me. First of all, can anyone here speak with authority on just how strong the supposed Illyrian/Messapic connection actually is? Everything I've read suggests that it's highly speculative, just as the(now discredited) Illyrian/Venetic connection was. If there really was a close relationship between Messapic and Illyrian, than Illyrian was almost certainly a centum language, and if that's the case, how could Albanian be continuing it? A Thracian or Dacian heritage for Albanian seems much more likely to my layperson's mind. Also, I've seen that Albanian double-headed eagle on a bunch of Thracian coins, not that that's proof of anything, I think the Hittites also used it, but, it's interesting if nothing else.

Sile
18-01-14, 00:38
There is no certainty because most languages in Europe were not written, just spoken. But if you go back on this thread and other related ones without a bias mind, you'll see that it is the most probable hypothesis.

have you ever considered that they actually have that ancient affinity.

There are some words that have survived but you wouldn't know whether they sound Albanian or not; you don't speak Albanian. Go learn it and then come here with more credibility. Right now you have taken some strange personal angle to fight Albanians.

No strange personal angle at all, just need to know how you can justify being Illyrian, when a tribe called Albanoi from no earlier recorded in history than 150AD is your only basis to claim every illyrian tribe under your banner .....do you think this is a mega-extreme attitude....and a 100% wrong attitude?

Sile
18-01-14, 00:43
This issue of the Albanian language has always confused the heck out of me. First of all, can anyone here speak with authority on just how strong the supposed Illyrian/Messapic connection actually is? Everything I've read suggests that it's highly speculative, just as the(now discredited) Illyrian/Venetic connection was. If there really was a close relationship between Messapic and Illyrian, than Illyrian was almost certainly a centum language, and if that's the case, how could Albanian be continuing it? A Thracian or Dacian heritage for Albanian seems much more likely to my layperson's mind. Also, I've seen that Albanian double-headed eagle on a bunch of Thracian coins, not that that's proof of anything, I think the Hittites also used it, but, it's interesting if nothing else.

Messapic was once thought to be illyrian, its now thought to be a part of Epirote language as its confirmed that Phyrrhus king of the Epirotes had warred against Rome and could communicate fluently with the messapics who aided him and also supplied some troops.

Molossians are also epirotes.........there are about 14 epirote tribes which make up the Epirote nation...............it was destroyed once the Macedonians annexed them in the time of Alexander the Greats father..Philip II

The double headed eagle IIRC was also used by Byzantines and Serbs

EDIT: disconnected before finishing
The Epirotes re-emerged after Alexander's death .

skaheen15
18-01-14, 00:53
The double headed eagle IIRC was also used by Byzantines and Serbs

The Serbs still use it, as did imperial Russia, the Hapsburgs, and others. I meant B.C.E., you don't see it much, so it's interesting that one of the only national groups using it at that time depth is one with a possible connection to the Albanians.

kamani
18-01-14, 01:09
No strange personal angle at all, just need to know how you can justify being Illyrian, when a tribe called Albanoi from no earlier recorded in history than 150AD is your only basis to claim every illyrian tribe under your banner .....do you think this is a mega-extreme attitude....and a 100% wrong attitude?

ok, I'll send you a scanned copy of my Illyrian passport.

Sile
18-01-14, 01:27
ok, I'll send you a scanned copy of my Illyrian passport.

Explain to me, since all Illyrian tribes assimilated with , modern Italians, greeks, macedonians, slavs , modern Austrians and others, except Albanoi from central Albania, I dont see why Albanians would have right to have the name illyrians. Basically the term Illyrian belongs to many people or NO people. Its a geographical term like balkan, scandinavian etc

Read, below.....the lands of albania was originally Greek, the Greek first encountered the illyrians in Modern Montenegro

The name of Illyrians as applied by the ancient Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people) to their northern neighbours may have referred to a broad, ill-defined group of peoples, and it is today unclear to what extent they were linguistically and culturally homogeneous. The Illyrian tribes never collectively regarded themselves as 'Illyrians', and it is unlikely that they utilized any collective nomenclature for themselves.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-Roisman-7) The term Illyrioi may originally have designated only a single people who came to be widely known to the Greeks due to proximity.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-Wilkes_1995_81.2C_183-18) This occurred during the Bronze Age, when Greek tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ancient_Greek_tribes) were neighboring the southernmost Illyrian tribe of that time in Zeta plain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_plain) of Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-Boardman629-8) Indeed, such a people known as the Illyrioi have occupied a small and well-defined part of the south Adriatic coast, around Skadar Lake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skadar_Lake)

kamani
18-01-14, 11:41
Read, below.....the lands of albania was originally Greek, the Greek first encountered the illyrians in Modern Montenegro

How do you know they were Greek? What evidence do you have of people in this area in the Bronze Age? Even in Greece people are not sure that they spoke Greek in the Bronze Age.



Cretan Hieroglyphic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_hieroglyphs)
Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete)
c. 1625–1500 BC


Linear A
Aegean islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_islands) (Kea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kea_%28island%29), Kythera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kythera), Melos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos), Thera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini)), and Greek mainland (Laconia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia))
c. 1800–1450 BC


Linear B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B)
Crete (Knossos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos)), and mainland (Pylos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos), Mycenae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae), Thebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Thebes_%28Boeotia%29), Tiryns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiryns))
c. 1450–1200 BC



Cretan Hieroglyphic and Linear A are undeciphered, so as much as scientists and linguists have banged their head against the wall, they do not fit the Greek language. Linear B was undeciphered until 1953, than all of a sudden Michael Ventris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ventris) switched his story from saying this is not Greek, to this is Greek. So even Linear B, nobody knows for sure is it Greek or not.
Real Greek appeared in the 9th century BC as a modification of the Phoenician alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet), with the innovation of adopting certain letters to represent the vowels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel). Phoenicians were sea people and so were Greeks, in the mainland there was somebody else...

SO STOP TRO-LLING.

Sile
18-01-14, 12:09
How do you know they were Greek? What evidence do you have of people in this area in the Bronze Age? Even in Greece people are not sure that they spoke Greek in the Bronze Age.



Cretan Hieroglyphic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_hieroglyphs)
Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete)
c. 1625–1500 BC


Linear A
Aegean islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_islands) (Kea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kea_%28island%29), Kythera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kythera), Melos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos), Thera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini)), and Greek mainland (Laconia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia))
c. 1800–1450 BC


Linear B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B)
Crete (Knossos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos)), and mainland (Pylos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos), Mycenae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae), Thebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Thebes_%28Boeotia%29), Tiryns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiryns))
c. 1450–1200 BC



Cretan Hieroglyphic and Linear A are undeciphered, so as much as scientists and linguists have banged their head against the wall, they do not fit the Greek language. Linear B was undeciphered until 1953, than all of a sudden Michael Ventris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ventris) switched his story from saying this is not Greek, to this is Greek. So even Linear B, nobody knows for sure is it Greek or not.
Real Greek appeared in the 9th century BC as a modification of the Phoenician alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet), with the innovation of adopting certain letters to represent the vowels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel). Phoenicians were sea people and so were Greeks, in the mainland there was somebody else...

SO STOP TRO-LLING.

because it says so, it does not say albanians

Garrick
18-01-14, 12:51
because it says so, it does not say albanians

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/chron/europe1.gif

Yes, it is good questions. Albanians do not exist on any historical map BC.

Ike
18-01-14, 16:39
No strange personal angle at all, just need to know how you can justify being Illyrian, when a tribe called Albanoi from no earlier recorded in history than 150AD is your only basis to claim every illyrian tribe under your banner .....do you think this is a mega-extreme attitude....and a 100% wrong attitude?

And they don't even call themselves Albanians.






Anyway, there are other theories also. Some of them may not even be Albanians. It's interesting that we have so high E-V13 in the parts (like Kosovo) where people claim their African ancestry:


"Their numbers in the province of Kosovo reportedly are even greater. The provincial chapter`s secretary, Qerim Abazi, claims more than 250,000 Egyptians currently are registered as Albanians."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-01-06/news/9101020455_1_egyptians-albanians-kosovo

"We were not allowed to say that we were Egyptians, because we were told we that we are Albanians because our language is Albanian."
http://mightynose.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/sufferings-of-the-kosovo-egyptians-under-nato-and-albanian-occupation/

(http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/education/ibp/source/FS_1_10.5.pdf)"In the Bulgarian version of the XIV century biography pf St. Barbarous, who lived in IX century, a great number of "Egyptians", who lived on the sea coast around Durres, are mentioned."
http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/education/ibp/source/FS_1_10.5.pdf (http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/education/ibp/source/FS_1_10.5.pdf)

"From some historical documents we know that Gypsy chiefs arriving at the city gates of fifteenth-century European towns presented themselves as 'Dukes of Egypt' or 'Dukes of Little-Egypt'."
http://dare.uva.nl/document/470960

LeBrok
18-01-14, 18:45
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/chron/europe1.gif

Yes, it is good questions. Albanians do not exist on any historical map BC.
Common Garic, as for scientific guy it is not wise to present a map made in last few years and call it historical map from 5th century BC, or show it as proof of things back then. The wild guesses, which this map should be called, are based on couple of Greek historians, who only got information from third hands, and used names which don't exist anymore or we don't know where to locate them. We can call it guess work, thats it.

Garrick
18-01-14, 18:50
Common Garic, as for scientific guy it is not wise to present a map made in last few years and call it historical map from 5th century BC, or show it as proof of things back then. The wild guesses, which this map should be called, are based on couple of Greek historians, who only got information from third hands, and used names which don't exist anymore or we don't know where to locate them. We can call it guess work, thats it.

Only as illustration, nothing more.

But agree, your comment is ok.

The point is that there are no historical maps of BC where you can find Albanians.

LeBrok
18-01-14, 19:05
Only as illustration, nothing more.

But agree, your comment is ok.

The point is that there are no historical maps of BC where you can find Albanians.
I would say, till 5 century AD there is nothing much any modern country or nation of Europe can relate to, besides Greeks and Italians.

Garrick
18-01-14, 19:32
I would say, till 5 century AD there is nothing much any modern country or nation of Europe can relate to, besides Greeks and Italians.

Yes, and it is very good observation.

Because it is clear from today's scientific knowledge there are no continuity between Illyrians and Albanians.

It is only myth for those who want to believe in it.

kamani
18-01-14, 19:42
As usual the main people that question Albanian history are the Serbs (and maybe a Croat pretending to be Italian), because they're mad about Kosovo and they have no real identity of their own before the middle ages. Why don't you people talk about Kosovars, the people you are mad with, and don't even mention Albanians. It's like being mad at Germans and attacking Austrians.

Sile
18-01-14, 19:50
As usual the main people that question Albanian history are the Serbs (and maybe a Croat pretending to be Italian), because they're mad about Kosovo and they have no real identity of their own before the middle ages. Why don't you people talk about Kosovars, the people you are mad with, and don't even mention Albanians. It's like being mad at Germans and attacking Austrians.

a croat trying to be italian ......lol .............nah, I am an albanian trying NOT to be an Albanian ....rofl

You clearly cannot debate ............take your bat and ball and go home!

Bardhyl
18-01-14, 20:36
Calling albanians africans cause of E-v13 is dangerous considering e-v13 in italy greece montenegro macedonia albania kosovo bulgaria romania.. With quiet high percentages in those countries.

yes albanians dont call themselves like that woow nice observation Shqip (1st hypothesis speak clearly, to differentiate from slavs turks greeks in middle ages 2nd hypothesis shqiponje eagle), germans call themselves also deutsche... Scotish i heard call themselves alba if i am not mistaken...and kosovo call themselves like that only because of slavic called this area like that they usually would call themselves dardans...but due to large slavic and long lasting power of slavs they see themselves as kosovans...

kamani
18-01-14, 20:39
a croat trying to be italian ......lol .............nah, I am an albanian trying NOT to be an Albanian ....rofl

You clearly cannot debate ............take your bat and ball and go home!

So you don't know what you are...Good luck with your miserable existence "trying NOT to be an Albanian..". So just for kicks: what are you trying to be now that you don't want to be Albanian anymore?

Ike
18-01-14, 21:44
Calling albanians africans cause of E-v13 is dangerous considering e-v13 in italy greece montenegro macedonia albania kosovo bulgaria romania.. With quiet high percentages in those countries.

yes albanians dont call themselves like that woow nice observation Shqip (1st hypothesis speak clearly, to differentiate from slavs turks greeks in middle ages 2nd hypothesis shqiponje eagle), germans call themselves also deutsche... Scotish i heard call themselves alba if i am not mistaken...and kosovo call themselves like that only because of slavic called this area like that they usually would call themselves dardans...but due to large slavic and long lasting power of slavs they see themselves as kosovans...

I don't care whether it's dangerous, if it's true. If half of Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Bosnians, and majority of Kosovars and Montenegrins are really Egyptians, so be it.

Yeah, right. We don't even know if people who claim to be Albanians today, were on Balkans before Christ, as there is no evidence of any continuity, and yet you are claiming that they would call themselves Dardanians. Yes, that old Dardanians would probably call themselves Dardanians if they were present today, but what's that got to do with Albanians? Get some arguments before you make claims like that...



As usual the main people that question Albanian history are the Serbs (and maybe a Croat pretending to be Italian), because they're mad about Kosovo and they have no real identity of their own before the middle ages. Why don't you people talk about Kosovars, the people you are mad with, and don't even mention Albanians. It's like being mad at Germans and attacking Austrians.

1. You have just one little thing missing in there. There is no Albanian history to question. As you have noticed, most of European nations have a history starting from middle ages (as goes for the majority of Balkan countries), but Albanians don't even have that. Instead of trying to make one up, go out and try to prove it. There is no point of being mad at me, for not having evidence to support your claims.

2. This has got nothing to do with who is one mad with. Stop trying to avert this. This is a thread about Albanian-Illyrian continuity, and if you don't have something constructive to say don't start a counter-attack just because you don't like the truth. Who gives a funk if Serbs and Croats don't have identity. OK, they were spawned in 1844. So what? If Slavs weren't here, that's a conclusive proof of Albanians being Illyrians?! If you don't have an arm, that means you have three legs?

Sile
18-01-14, 21:47
So you don't know what you are...Good luck with your miserable existence "trying NOT to be an Albanian..". So just for kicks: what are you trying to be now that you don't want to be Albanian anymore?

to make you happy , I will be any nationality you want me to be, but that still does not change my view in regards to an illyrian - albanian link. I would have the same argument EVEN IF I was albanian. Lies and propaganda are taught by nations to its people, there is only about 50% truth IMO, learn this fact.

Bardhyl
18-01-14, 22:13
I don't care whether it's dangerous, if it's true. If half of Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Bosnians, and majority of Kosovars and Montenegrins are really Egyptians, so be it.

Yeah, right. We don't even know if people who claim to be Albanians today, were on Balkans before Christ, as there is no evidence of any continuity, and yet you are claiming that they would call themselves Dardanians. Yes, that old Dardanians would probably call themselves Dardanians if they were present today, but what's that got to do with Albanians? Get some arguments before you make claims like that...




1. You have just one little thing missing in there. There is no Albanian history to question. As you have noticed, most of European nations have a history starting from middle ages (as goes for the majority of Balkan countries), but Albanians don't even have that. Instead of trying to make one up, go out and try to prove it. There is no point of being mad at me, for not having evidence to support your claims.

2. This has got nothing to do with who is one mad with. Stop trying to avert this. This is a thread about Albanian-Illyrian continuity, and if you don't have something constructive to say don't start a counter-attack just because you don't like the truth. Who gives a funk if Serbs and Croats don't have identity. OK, they were spawned in 1844. So what? If Slavs weren't here, that's a conclusive proof of Albanians being Illyrians?! If you don't have an arm, that means you have three legs?

says the slav who came 600 ad in balkans? If you call greeks as people from ancient according to dna you automatically have, yes you have to call albanians at least as ancient only according to Dna, because similarity is frightening Dude. because this is just a forum nothing which you say is going to be published, we are just discussing, most scholars believe that albanians are descendants of illyrians and thats whats counts, not only as people but also as a language, the only language is albanian which helps illyrian words and names what is left to be given a meaning.


Why is no e-v13 in egypt today or no significant amount?
kosovo is also 21% r1b and 16% j2b


germans - deutsche - allemagne, allemanen
scotland - alba
greece - helenes
switzerland - helvetia - eidgenosse


There are plenty of countries which call themselves differently personally as opposed other countries do.


Is it just jelousy or hatred or what is it to be opposing constantly,
it is useles if you call albanians newcomers according to dna do the same not wih half of greece with whole greece and almost whole italy almost whole bulgaria ev13 j2 in all those countries only not in hrvatska my friend am sorry, white hrvoje. Even servia has e-v13 j2b only croatia not.