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Goga
25-08-12, 01:39
"Indo-European languages first emerged in modern-day Turkey, and spread through the world along with agriculture, a new study suggests. The findings support one of two hotly debated scenarios for the origins of this language family. The Indo-European language family is one of the largest in the world and includes Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages. Some researchers have proposed that Anatolia was the source of this language family, beginning 8,000 to 9,500 years ago. The other hypothesis places the origin north of the Caspian Sea in the Russian steppes, where it was first disseminated by a semi-nomadic, horse-riding people known as the Kurgan, starting about 6,000 years ago. To test both of these scenarios, Remco Bouckaert and colleagues adapted a statistical method used by evolutionary biologists to work out how species -- for example, the influenza virus -- are related in a family tree, based on similarities and differences in their DNA. Instead of comparing species, the authors compared Indo-European languages, and instead of DNA, they looked for shared cognates, which are words that have a common origin, such as "mother," "mutter" and "madre.” The authors used the family tree, together with information about the present-day locations of the languages in their study, to infer the location and age of the family’s origins. The results are consistent with the Anatolian scenario, the researchers report."

http://chinese.eurekalert.org/en/pub_releases/2012-08/aaft-tit082012.php

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6097/957.abstract

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6097/957.figures-only

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article00546.html

Goga
25-08-12, 01:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pa7SPns8fQ

http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg

Goga
25-08-12, 01:49
http://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/

So it's true that Indo-Iranian (Aryan) and Greco-Albanian languages are very close to each other.

The fact that those languages are so close to each other suggests that y-DNA haplogroup J2* must be part of the proto-Indo-European folks!

Goga
25-08-12, 02:06
Dienekes wrote much more detailed story about it.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/08/proto-indo-european-homeland-in.html

Wilhelm
25-08-12, 15:27
The map is obviously wrong, the celtic languages in Iberia are in fact older than those in the British Isles and Ireland..

zanipolo
25-08-12, 22:12
The map is obviously wrong, the celtic languages in Iberia are in fact older than those in the British Isles and Ireland..

there are 2 known main branches of the celtic language , which is the iberian one?

MOESAN
25-08-12, 22:30
two? maybe more? what you speak about is the dichotomy between Qw- and P- celtic languages - some scholars have other interpretations, separating P- gaulish from P- brittonic, and separating Qw- goidelic from Qw- celtiberic - I have no knowledge enough to choose my side...

MOESAN
25-08-12, 22:38
I add I have not too big confidence in all these 'genetic' studies of languages, because the phylogenetic aspect (vertical: phonetical separating branches) is balanced by a 'exchanges net' aspect (horizontal: lexical: loan words at all periods, but also phonetical supposed innovations crossing over dialects: hum hum!!!) - I avow I give my preference to the phonetic vertical evolution of languages - and the problems of datation of diverse phonetic mutations and separations of brother languages stays very uneasy to resolve and I am amazed when I see some "doubtless" affirmations - eybody his "religion"...

zanipolo
25-08-12, 22:48
I add I have not too big confidence in all these 'genetic' studies of languages, because the phylogenetic aspect (vertical: phonetical separating branches) is balanced by a 'exchanges net' aspect (horizontal: lexical: loan words at all periods, but also phonetical supposed innovations crossing over dialects: hum hum!!!) - I avow I give my preference to the phonetic vertical evolution of languages - and the problems of datation of diverse phonetic mutations and separations of brother languages stays very uneasy to resolve and I am amazed when I see some "doubtless" affirmations - eybody his "religion"...

like all studies , there are positive and negatives to be found, what percentage is correct .
i find the anatolian, armenia, germanic and italic as correct, the others I need to study more

Finalise
30-08-12, 06:42
http://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/

So it's true that Indo-Iranian (Aryan) and Greco-Albanian languages are very close to each other.

The fact that those languages are so close to each other suggests that y-DNA haplogroup J2* must be part of the proto-Indo-European folks!

Im sorry but thats just bull. Greek is a clear Centum language, while Albanian is mostly satem. Albanian is most closely related to Proto-Balto Slavic, with Germanic and Celtic influences but theyre a bit more distant. Albanian shares immense isoglosses with Balto-Slavic and not enough with Greek. Read on http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm

Taranis
30-08-12, 16:20
I am sure that I am repeating myself because I mentioned this in the past in other threads when the Anatolian hypothesis was brought up, but there are obvious obstacles with the Anatolian hypothesis: the first and foremost, from the linguistic perspective, is that common words for horse, metal, wheel (or wheeled vehicles) can be reconstructed for the proto-indo-european language, and Europe's first farmers (which according to the Anatolian Hypothesis, were speakers of PIE) were clearly lacking such items. This counterargument might be also supplemented by common terminology for warfare for proto-indo-european, as well as common motives of Indo-European mythologies.

What we also have by now is genetics evidence from Neolithic sites, which show with consistency that Haplogroup G2 was the dominant Neolithic haplogroup in Europe, and logically one has to argue that this Y-Haplogroup was the "original" one of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. The consequence that arises from this is, how do we interprete later events? How do we interprete the expansions of Haplogroups R1a and R1b? What original linguistic affinity were the carriers of these Haplogroups?

Another aspect that should be brought up here is that Atkinson (rather, Gray and Atkinson) already published similar results back in 2003, and I don't see any real improvement on their scenario to match evidence, rather the opposite.

Furthermore, I agree with what other posters on the language tree: it makes no sense. One aspect is that it's mainly (there are some exceptions, yes, but too few) based on modern languages, and some of the dates for divergence that the tree proposes are absurd in the face of historic evidence (a good example would be a divergence between Gothic and the other Germanic languages in 500 BC). Likewise, some of the closer relationships that are proposed also make no sense: Albanian certainly isn't particularly close with Greek (instead, the commonly cited affinities by linguists in the past were either with Balto-Slavic, or, more distantly, with Germanic), or Tocharian with Armenian (Tocharian is instead usually placed rather in affinity with the Celtic and Italic languages).

The tree is particularly flawed on the Celtic languages, as it only includes the modern branches. The tree also seems to take the Insular Celtic model as the correct one, which requires that Goidelic and Brythonic emerged from a common Proto-Insular-Celtic, and that the continental Celtic languages (Celtiberian, Gaulish, Lepontic, etc.) developed separately, but scenario is ignorant of the many commonalities between Gaulish and Brythonic (which fits much better with the Q-Celtic/P-Celtic hypothesis).


The map is obviously wrong, the celtic languages in Iberia are in fact older than those in the British Isles and Ireland..

Based on what evidence, Wilhelm?

I actually think that both genetic evidence (distribution of R1b-L21 (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif), which shows a north-south gradient in Iberia) and linguistic evidence (http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/282/FalileyevMap.pdf?sequence=12) (Primitive Irish as the most conservative known Celtic language, rather than Celtiberian, plus abundance of non-Celtic languages in pre-Roman Spain alongside of Celtic, which contrasts the absence of pre-Roman non-Celtic languages on the British Isles) favour that the Celtic languages are rather older on the British Isles than on the Iberian peninsula, and that Celtic languages spread from the north along the bronze age trade networks of the Atlantic Façade, rather than in the opposite direction.

Taranis
07-09-12, 23:46
Two very relevant, and in my opinion, rather detailed and well-written articles on this topic:

‘Wheel’ Vocabulary Puts a Spoke in Bouckaert et al.’s Wheel (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/wheel-vocabulary-puts-a-spoke-in-bouckaert-et-al-s-wheel)

Quentin Atkinson’s Nonsensical Maps of Indo-European Expansion (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/quentin-atkinsons-nonsensical-maps-of-indo-european-expansion)

Yetos
08-09-12, 00:27
maybe maykop spoke ie

MOESAN
08-09-12, 18:27
Chronology in linguistics and distances between languages :


some trapdoors :

the lost words (almost synonyms) :
every dialectologist knows that : big lexical differences between previous very close dialects can take place in a very short time : it occurs by separation or by lost of preponderance in a bilinigual environment, and even in a monolingual state it can take place for less usual words – nevertheless old community can persist very longer on the phonetical field and it is why I have great consideration for phonetics (and syntax) -
surely the most basic a term the longer it is kept in language, as a rule – but lost can occur very quickly- in breton the terms for 'father', 'mother', 'daughter' are still alone but already 'son', 'uncle' and 'aunt' was replaced in some dialects by 'boy', and french words 'tonton' and 'tintin'/'tantin' or funnyer 'matañt' (french 'ma tante' = 'my aunt': so you can hear « his my-aunt », « your my-aunt » and not « his tante » or « your tante » ! a term as 'speak' is translated by at least 4 different words ! Keep in mind the latin 'testa' (earth pottery piece, evocating the skull) take the place of 'cap-ut' (chef/chief <> tête) for 'head' -
among basic folks it is common to exchange words of the same language for close sort of plants or beasts, even for neighbor parts of body (romance langauges : 'back' <> 'shoulder' <> 'humerus' = higher part of arm) so the supposed localisations of original cradle of languages speaking populations is still very uneasy (see *'drv' : 'oak' for Celts but common 'tree' for Slavs) -
to establish close community in origin between 2 languages, it is needed to keep away the loan words occurred after branching and that create a superficial link between 2 different ligneages -


according to political and cultural and economical structures the evolution speed can vary very much : centralized states and nomad federations of tribes keeping on in touch can retain more long time common words when satellized sedentary state can see its language turning into a lot of dialects and subdialects –
when a language is passed from one population to the other (and it can be done in very different ways) and these populations have very different phonetic habits, the evolution can be very brutal : it occurred in oïl romance (french) from latin and it could have occurred by example for gaelic after introduction into Hibernia... greek too seams having undergone a very fast evolution after introduction of the I-E prototype send there.
Phonetic evolution could show a simplification of sounds when a language pass from a group to an other one – but it is not an universal rule : some more complicated sounds can appear after some centuries : oïl litterary french lost its diphtongs but gave more simple vowels and more consonants than latin : and yet, french oïl dialects countain a lot of diphtongs – yet a rule contradicting an other one. And if evolution of lexic can run very faster than evolution of pronounciation in a stabilized population keeping on the same language, the contrary can also occur when a new language is learned by a population having very different pronounciation habits compared to the population imposing this new language: then in a short time, vocabulary changes little but sounds can change very quickly before staying stable for centuries!
All that to say that, without writings, branching chronology of remote branches of a previous same language is a very hard sport.(branching easy, chronology uneasy) !

LeBrok
09-09-12, 03:26
Two very relevant, and in my opinion, rather detailed and well-written articles on this topic:

‘Wheel’ Vocabulary Puts a Spoke in Bouckaert et al.’s Wheel (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/wheel-vocabulary-puts-a-spoke-in-bouckaert-et-al-s-wheel)

Quentin Atkinson’s Nonsensical Maps of Indo-European Expansion (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/quentin-atkinsons-nonsensical-maps-of-indo-european-expansion)

Great reads. Thanks

Jaska
24-09-12, 22:21
I have finished my critical review on the computational phylogenetic method recently used by Bouckaert et al. (2012) and claimed to "prove" the Neolithic Anatolian homeland for Indo-European, but forum doesn't allow me to give any links, so google:
"Problems in the method and interpretations of the computational phylogenetics based on linguistic data
An example of wishful thinking: Bouckaert et al. 2012"

last-resort
17-04-17, 18:43
Two very relevant, and in my opinion, rather detailed and well-written articles on this topic:

‘Wheel’ Vocabulary Puts a Spoke in Bouckaert et al.’s Wheel (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/wheel-vocabulary-puts-a-spoke-in-bouckaert-et-al-s-wheel)

Quentin Atkinson’s Nonsensical Maps of Indo-European Expansion (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/quentin-atkinsons-nonsensical-maps-of-indo-european-expansion) Note: The first link gave a No Page Found notice today. The link below is for page 3 of the path for the missing article. There are several articles disputing Bouckaert there.

http://www.geocurrents.info/category/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/page/3

brick
30-04-18, 17:14
I disagree with this theory.