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Knovas
07-09-12, 22:53
The ASHG 2012 abstracts are online, and Dienekes' summarizes the following:

On the Sardinian ancestry of the Tyrolean Iceman (http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f120123058.htm) confirms that modern Sardinians are most similar to both the Tyrolean Iceman and the Swedish Neolithic TRB individual (presumably Gok4). You can find my analysis of both in the archives of the blog. But, look here:

Strikingly, an analysis including novel ancient DNA data from an early Iron Age individual from Bulgaria also shows the strongest affinity of this individual with modern-day Sardinians. Our results show that the Tyrolean Iceman was not a recent migrant from Sardinia, but rather that among contemporary Europeans, Sardinians represent the population most closely related to populations present in the Southern Alpine region around 5000 years ago. The genetic affinity of ancient DNA samples from distant parts of Europe with Sardinians also suggests that this genetic signature was much more widespread across Europe during the Bronze Age. As you may have guessed, I can't wait to get my hands on that Iron Age Thracian. His similarity with Sardinians is striking, because by the Iron Age, I would have thought that something akin to the modern genetic landscape would have begun to crystallize in Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/09/ashg-2012-abstracts-are-online.html

This is really surprising if finally true, because it would mean that the West Asian related components we've seen in many admixture experiments are even more recent in Europe than expected. Moreover, maybe R1b has very little or nothing to do with it, which seemed very likely at first. Y-DNA J was probably the one mostly linked to the so called component according to this.

We'll see if something new comes out confirming the info.

Wilhelm
07-09-12, 23:37
Quite surprising and fascinating stuff, this opens new doors for investigation..that not only North Italy and the Alpine regions, but pretty much all of Southern Europe (') could have been reached by Sardinian-like peoples.

oriental
08-09-12, 00:18
I read somewhere that the Khazars, a turkic tribe controlled the area between the Caspian and the Black Seas fought off the Arabs and kept Christianity alive in Europe. They destroed the Bulgarian Empire west of them who had kept the Russians in Kiev. The Bugarians then had to move to the west of the Black Sea and another group split off to the north. The Khazars converted to Judaism but were destroyed by the Russians.

http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/khazar-empire-illuminati-and-new-world-order/

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Yetos
08-09-12, 00:30
The change from mycenean to archaic Greek

from Q-Greek to P-Greek
Happened at the beggining of iron age

oriental
08-09-12, 00:53
Khazars, a turkic tribe between the Black and Caspian Seas drove off the Bulgarians just west of them. The Bulgarians split into two one going to the mouth of the Danube and the other north. It was the Bulgarians who kept the Russian at bay. When the Khazars moved them they were face to face with the Russians. The Khazars had kept the Arabs from expanding to Europe. Their war with the Arabs and Persians may have weakened them so the Russians destroyed them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

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ElHorsto
08-09-12, 16:13
This is really surprising if finally true, because it would mean that the West Asian related components we've seen in many admixture experiments are even more recent in Europe than expected.

Or maybe K12b is not that bad after all, since it shows in Sardinians and Ötzi 20% Caucasus admixture, which belongs to the West Asian components.

Knovas
08-09-12, 16:47
As I told many times, the mentioned experiment was the only one showing what you say, so I wouldn't bet for it. And no, it's not West Asian because the clusters overlap more than in other experiments.

Check this out and you'll know what I mean: http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

Specially note the following:

- Atlantic Med appears to be Caucasus + a slice of North European

- Caucasus appears Atlantic Med + Gedrosia + slices of Northwest African and Southwest Asian

So no, Caucasus is definetely far from being West Asian compared to other experiments. Or in other words, this is not a clear signal of something emanating from West Asia, but rather the Mediterranean.

MOESAN
08-09-12, 17:09
The change from mycenean to archaic Greek

from Q-Greek to P-Greek
Happened at the beggining of iron age

I don't know what your are trying to say by that, but I link this linguistical change to a central european group (well armed elite) of I-Ean speakers at the same time you indicate, but without tie with a 'sardinian' component nor 'Bulgaria iron Age' - I suppose the 'sardinian' genetic component associated with Y-G2 and agriculture-herding (before BB yet were phenotipycal discoverings linking neolithic in Switzerland with Sardinia, as southern France); that suits veru well archeology findings - the bulk of this sard. component in Balkans was surely there before Iron Age and without too tight links with it -
on an other hand, the shift Qw- >> P spite the modern way of seeing was not a coincidence among celtic, italic and greek languages, I 'm even sure of the contrary! When scholars keep without killing their "fathers" we 'll see better I bet...
just a thought

MOESAN
08-09-12, 17:25
I add that as interesting as it is, this analysis concerns only ONE man and the Dieneke's assumption that all this could show a Iron Age very different in Bulgaria from present day DNA situation is without any foundation. Wait for more DNA samples concerning every period in every regions...

MOESAN
08-09-12, 17:36
concerning autosomals, the problem for my poor "cabbage" is that we can assign a community or origin to two subpools of genes because of a geographical close repartition (neighboring) of density when they have NO phylogenetic links one together...

Knovas
08-09-12, 20:20
Well, wait a second. Dienekes' also considered the following possibility to explain the similarity with modern Sardinians:

We don't know what he lacked/had. Sardinians would still be the closest population if he e.g., had mostly "Med" ancestry with say, 10% North European or 10% West Asian, or even 10% of each.

Let's see how many ancestral markers they genotyped and the results using different Calculators. The markers concerning the hunter gatherers are very low even to check the major components, but for Ötzi it's not bad. If we get similar results with more or less the same markers, I think it's not a miracle that the first individual we find there comes out Sardinian like. Indeed, it would probably mean something.

oriental
08-09-12, 22:46
Most of the problem with East European history is the lack of records. There is a website on Central Asia that provides some details on the steppe people which could shed light on it:

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=history_central_asia

Taranis
08-09-12, 23:00
Khazars, a turkic tribe between the Black and Caspian Seas drove off the Bulgarians just west of them. The Bulgarians split into two one going to the mouth of the Danube and the other north. It was the Bulgarians who kept the Russian at bay. When the Khazars moved them they were face to face with the Russians. The Khazars had kept the Arabs from expanding to Europe. Their war with the Arabs and Persians may have weakened them so the Russians destroyed them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

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Most of the problem with East European history is the lack of records. There is a website on Central Asia that provides some details on the steppe people which could shed light on it:

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=history_central_asia

oriental, why do you keep posting this? It has nothing to do with the thread topic.

oriental
10-09-12, 23:45
The movement of Bulgarians is important so one can trace where their genes may have have been mixed. Knowing the general history of the steppe people helps in understanding what happened at the other end i.e. in the Black Sea area. There seem to be be a lot of heat regarding Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians, Macedonia, Bosnians, etc. I am confused too. Each accusing the other of having this or that gene and thus more entitled to their place in history. By showing most of the Indo-European Central Asians being pushed west could help help. There is so much discussion of Turkic blood who were probably Indo-European while it is the Mongols who are East Asian. But if you feel this off-topic feel free to erase them. I have no qualms about it. I don't have any strong bias except to help.:good_job::startled::innocent::ashamed2:

ElHorsto
15-09-12, 17:36
As I told many times, the mentioned experiment was the only one showing what you say, so I wouldn't bet for it. And no, it's not West Asian because the clusters overlap more than in other experiments.

Check this out and you'll know what I mean: http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

Specially note the following:

- Atlantic Med appears to be Caucasus + a slice of North European

- Caucasus appears Atlantic Med + Gedrosia + slices of Northwest African and Southwest Asian

So no, Caucasus is definetely far from being West Asian compared to other experiments. Or in other words, this is not a clear signal of something emanating from West Asia, but rather the Mediterranean.

I'm not sure I understand your points correctly. Yet I'll try to reply reasonably:

I was not claiming that Atlantic_Med is coming from West Asia. I actually believe it could be the other way around. Dienekes now has made yet more cross-admixture experiments, and he came up with a crude table which provides hints about how 'old' or 'basic' a component might be. According to this table, Atlantic_Med is much more genuine (rank 18) than Caucasus (rank 6). Contrary to Dienekes, it looks like the Caucasus is not really the "womb of nations", right? And you also cited that Atlantic_med could not be decomposed into that many sub-components further.

BUT: Provided that Caucasus component really consists of 60% Atlantic_med, 33% Gedrosian, 5%Southwest_Asian and 3% Northwest_african, then 6% Gedrosian, 1% Southwest_asian and 0.7% Northwest_african neolithic influx would be sufficient to create 20% Caucasus admixture out of a sudden within a 100% Atlantic_med population like Sardinians for instance. Of course, I leave this hypothesis open for debate and objection.

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html

zanipolo
15-09-12, 20:14
I'm not sure I understand your points correctly. Yet I'll try to reply reasonably:

I was not claiming that Atlantic_Med is coming from West Asia. I actually believe it could be the other way around. Dienekes now has made yet more cross-admixture experiments, and he came up with a crude table which provides hints about how 'old' or 'basic' a component might be. According to this table, Atlantic_Med is much more genuine (rank 18) than Caucasus (rank 6). Contrary to Dienekes, it looks like the Caucasus is not really the "womb of nations", right? And you also cited that Atlantic_med could not be decomposed into that many sub-components further.

BUT: Provided that Caucasus component really consists of 60% Atlantic_med, 33% Gedrosian, 5%Southwest_Asian and 3% Northwest_african, then 6% Gedrosian, 1% Southwest_asian and 0.7% Northwest_african neolithic influx would be sufficient to create 20% Caucasus admixture out of a sudden within a 100% Atlantic_med population like Sardinians for instance. Of course, I leave this hypothesis open for debate and objection.

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html

so, to explain , are we saying that this ancient bulgarian sample is not part of the bulgar people from northern causasus?

In regards to the Dienekes chart below


[1,] East_African_K12b 7
[2,] African_K7b 7
[3,] South_Asian_K7b 4
[4,] Atlantic_Baltic_K7b 3
[5,] East_Asian_K12b 0
[6,] Caucasus_K12b 0
[7,] Northwest_African_K12b -2
[8,] East_Asian_K7b -2
[9,] Siberian_K12b -3
[10,] Southeast_Asian_K12b -4
[11,] Gedrosia_K12b -4
[12,] Siberian_K7b -4
[13,] Southwest_Asian_K12b -5
[14,] South_Asian_K12b -7
[15,] North_European_K12b -7
[16,] West_Asian_K7b -7
[17,] Southern_K7b -8
[18,] Atlantic_Med_K12b -8
[19,] Sub_Saharan_K12b -19

The higher the ranking, the older the group. This also makes sense to the "back to africa theory" which most agree on

This was also sent by my 2 project managers for my K12b admixture


#
Population
Percent


1
Atlantic_Med
35.87


2
North_European
28.04


3
Caucasus
20.98


4
Gedrosia
7.02


5
Southwest_Asian
6.23


6
Northwest_African
1.42


7
South_Asian
0.33


8
Sub_Saharan
0.1



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
N_Italian (Dodecad)
6.71


2
O_Italian (Dodecad)
9.26


3
North_Italian (HGDP)
9.88



And they stated, exactly what you said.

Could the sardinians be part of a very very old group that migrated to sardinia when the water levels where very low, similar time as when asians walked from malaysia through indonesia and to australia without getting their feet wet.
Sardinian marker for G is G2a3a while Otzi is G2a4 ............which is older?

ElHorsto
15-09-12, 21:12
so, to explain , are we saying that this ancient bulgarian sample is not part of the bulgar people from northern causasus?


It is certainly not part of bulgar tribes, because bulgars arrived very late at 700 CE. If the sample is Thracian then it is from 1000 or 2000 BC. Bulgars represented a warrior elite who founded the bulgarian nation and state in 681 CE, hence the naming. It is similar to France, which preserved its name from the gemanic frankish rulers.
It looks like bulgars did not contribute that much to the current bulgarian gene pool.



In regards to the Dienekes chart below


[1,] East_African_K12b 7
[2,] African_K7b 7
[3,] South_Asian_K7b 4
[4,] Atlantic_Baltic_K7b 3
[5,] East_Asian_K12b 0
[6,] Caucasus_K12b 0
[7,] Northwest_African_K12b -2
[8,] East_Asian_K7b -2
[9,] Siberian_K12b -3
[10,] Southeast_Asian_K12b -4
[11,] Gedrosia_K12b -4
[12,] Siberian_K7b -4
[13,] Southwest_Asian_K12b -5
[14,] South_Asian_K12b -7
[15,] North_European_K12b -7
[16,] West_Asian_K7b -7
[17,] Southern_K7b -8
[18,] Atlantic_Med_K12b -8
[19,] Sub_Saharan_K12b -19

The higher the ranking, the older the group.


Highest rank (newest) is
[1,] East_African_K12b 7

Lowest rank (oldest) is:
[19,] Sub_Saharan_K12b -19



This also makes sense to the "back to africa theory" which most agree on

This was also sent by my 2 project managers for my K12b admixture


#
Population
Percent


1
Atlantic_Med
35.87


2
North_European
28.04


3
Caucasus
20.98


4
Gedrosia

7.02


5
Southwest_Asian

6.23


6
Northwest_African

1.42


7
South_Asian

0.33


8
Sub_Saharan

0.1



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)

Distance


1
N_Italian (Dodecad)

6.71


2
O_Italian (Dodecad)

9.26


3
North_Italian (HGDP)

9.88



And they stated, exactly what you said.

Could the sardinians be part of a very very old group that migrated to sardinia when the water levels where very low, similar time as when asians walked from malaysia through indonesia and to australia without getting their feet wet.
Sardinian marker for G is G2a3a while Otzi is G2a4 ............which is older?

Could be, but I'm not aware that the mediterranean sea was that low during the last 12 million years.
I'd guess that Sardinians are mostly from paleolithic european stock plus neolithic invaders, but they populated the island later.

Knovas
17-09-12, 18:19
Good points Horsto. Regarding Sardinians, yes, it could be. According to all admixture tests I've seen so far, they are not as regular as Basques for instance, although I still think the figure it's quite high.

Wilhelm
18-09-12, 01:26
I'm not sure I understand your points correctly. Yet I'll try to reply reasonably:

I was not claiming that Atlantic_Med is coming from West Asia. I actually believe it could be the other way around. Dienekes now has made yet more cross-admixture experiments, and he came up with a crude table which provides hints about how 'old' or 'basic' a component might be. According to this table, Atlantic_Med is much more genuine (rank 18) than Caucasus (rank 6). Contrary to Dienekes, it looks like the Caucasus is not really the "womb of nations", right? And you also cited that Atlantic_med could not be decomposed into that many sub-components further.

BUT: Provided that Caucasus component really consists of 60% Atlantic_med, 33% Gedrosian, 5%Southwest_Asian and 3% Northwest_african, then 6% Gedrosian, 1% Southwest_asian and 0.7% Northwest_african neolithic influx would be sufficient to create 20% Caucasus admixture out of a sudden within a 100% Atlantic_med population like Sardinians for instance. Of course, I leave this hypothesis open for debate and objection.

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html
Nowehere it says that Caucasus are 60% Atlantic_med...The 12_Caucasus is made of West-Asian and some Southern, and the 7_West-Asian is made of the Gedrosia and Caucasus.

ElHorsto
18-09-12, 02:12
Nowehere it says that Caucasus are 60% Atlantic_med...The 12_Caucasus is made of West-Asian and some Southern, and the 7_West-Asian is made of the Gedrosia and Caucasus.

The 60% come from the figure in Dienekes' previous article (thanks to Knovas for the link):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

It is the first run of that kind. It analyzes K12b against K12b.

Ivan
18-09-12, 17:18
Could be, but I'm not aware that the mediterranean sea was that low during the last 12 million years.
I'd guess that Sardinians are mostly from paleolithic european stock plus neolithic invaders, but they populated the island later.


the peak of the last ice age, about 18,000 years ago


http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/topo/pictures/GLOBALsealeveldrop110m.jpg

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/topo/globega2.html

LumiBardha
27-12-14, 11:49
I wouldn't rely on deinekes he has me at 28 percent Swedish and 72 percent Tuscan . I am Albanian, I do not even think it possible except the Tuscan part.

MOESAN
29-12-14, 00:47
I suppose Dienekes was situationg your genes set by distance from average populations genes sets which could be replaced by say, Sardinian and Karelian, or others, always to place you in comparison to them?

LumiBardha
10-01-15, 09:21
understood But where would the Swedish come from? pretty far from the Balkans. Slavic makes sense I guess that's close enough