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prosk
15-09-12, 11:42
can anyone here tell me Proto-Greek and Myceanean Greek belong to Satem group or belong to Centum? Thanks

Taranis
15-09-12, 22:31
can anyone here tell me Proto-Greek and Myceanean Greek belong to Satem group or belong to Centum? Thanks

Welcome to Eupedia, prosk!

Greek (wether we are talking about Proto-Greek, Mycenaean Greek or Classical Greek is irrelevant to the question) is a "Centum" language.

prosk
17-09-12, 12:18
but sir , how can Greek be a Centum language when it's cognate languages(such as Amenia Slavic ) are all Satem languages ?

Taranis
17-09-12, 12:41
but sir , how can Greek be a Centum language when it's cognate languages(such as Amenia Slavic ) are all Satem languages ?

I am not sure what you mean by "it's cognate languages" - Greek is after all an Indo-European language, and as such it has cognates with all branches of Indo-European, regardless of wether they classify as Centum or Satem languages. To give you some examples of words that are subject to the Centum/Satem division in several Centum (Greek, English, Welsh, Latin) and Satem (Lithuanian, Armenian, Russian, Sanskrit):

"dog"
- Greek "kyon"
- English "hound"
- Welsh "ci"
- Latin "canis"
- Armenian "shun"
- Lithuanian "šuo"
- Sanskrit "sva"

and of course, the word for "hundred" (after which the division is named):

- Greek "hekaton"
- Latin "centum"
- English "hundred"
- Welsh "cant"
- Lithuanian "šimtas"
- Russian "sto"
- Sanskrit "satam"

prosk
17-09-12, 14:07
what I mean " cognate languages"is Graeco-Aryan of course .

Yetos
17-09-12, 16:47
what I mean " cognate languages"is Graeco-Aryan of course .


That is the Linguistic connections, that for some can be used to show many things, among them origin, proto forms etc,

Ιt has to do with many things except the split to K and Sh.

grammar Syntax etc, forms of infinitive, syllaber system, isotones etc

By that we see that homerick Greek are connected with Aryan, so we find a step, a level closer to PIE etc etc,

Hettit language which is estimated at 2000 BC about was neither Centum neither Satem,
That can explain a lot,

Taranis
17-09-12, 19:09
That is the Linguistic connections, that for some can be used to show many things, among them origin, proto forms etc,

Ιt has to do with many things except the split to K and Sh.

grammar Syntax etc, forms of infinitive, syllaber system, isotones etc

By that we see that homerick Greek are connected with Aryan, so we find a step, a level closer to PIE etc etc,

The interesting point is that there are some phonological similarities between Greek and Iranic (Aryan), notably the development of initial *s- to *h- (note that this also applies for Armenian). However, on the flip side, this doesn't apply for the other branches of IE that are Satem (Indic, Balto-Slavic), which retain PIE *s- instead. Likewise, Greek being a Centum language doesn't have the so-called "RUKI" law, by which *s > *sh at specific positions (this holds true, however, for Balto-Slavic, Armenian and Indo-Iranic).

My opinion is that either the Indo-Iranic hypothesis is invalid (which on the other hand has very strong arguments for it too, so that would be surprising - indeed the hypothesis has almost unanimous support), or perhaps these Graeco-(Armeno)-Aryan innovations are the result of some late-PIE sprachbund.


Hettit language which is estimated at 2000 BC about was neither Centum neither Satem,
That can explain a lot,

Yes and no. Hittite by itself could be labeled a "Centum" language, however, the Luwian language is more Satem like. Because of this the Anatolianist Melchert proposes that Proto-Anatolian had all three velar series (just like PIE), as opposed to the Centum languages (plain velars + palatovelars merged) or the Satem languages (plain velars and labiovelars merged, and labiovelars developed into fricatives).

prosk
18-09-12, 12:17
so what is "one hundred" in Proto-Greek and My-Greek?

Yetos
01-11-12, 10:02
I was looking last days about the word king emperror

in Homer we find the word ΑΝΑΞ anax in female ανακις -anakisa (k+s=ss) anassa anatta (compare thalassa-thalatta)
αναξ
ανακ-ος (ανακτ-ος)

in Aryan (I think also in Kurdish) exist the word for queen anahitta

the word anax existed also in classical Greek, but starts to fade in late Hellenistic, while the term remains in ανακτορον anaktoron = palace.
in Byzantine is replaced by αυτοκρατωρ (shelf-power. self-state). emperror

the words used by Myceneans is aga (compare an-akas) in Iranic we find the word acha,

yet smaller kings are mentioned as ga-si-reus as I read in this forum, hoping to be correct
so possible the ga is what we find later as aga or an-aka

the reus which reminds us the -rix -regi -rois etc is another story.
i wonder why myceneans used both words anax and reus to a title,

may I remind you that βασιλευς (king) is an army ruler mainly, which rules with a help of a council of elders, priests, and judges.
ανακας (emperror) is a king that has all powers, military and laws on him, except the high priest. (as we see in Antigone Sophocles)

the same word I think in Indo-Iranian is Sach Saha

so the word from East to West goes
Indo-Iranian Sach
Persian Acha
Mycenean aga (a-wa, αγα,)
Saxon?*

but in Greco-Aryan linguistic approach is
Aryan anah-
Greek anak-

*
Interesting case is the word Saxon,
if the word is connected with the word Aχαιοι (achaian) then it is possble to means Kings

Zeus10
02-11-12, 01:57
There is no such thing as Proto-Greek. Greek is a religious language, CREATED for the purpose of liturgy and religious writings, and never been a vernacular language on the first place.
Also, Linear B is not a syllabic language, but just some ideograms. All 200 signs are just ideographic signs and they do NOT possess any phonetic value.

Yetos
02-11-12, 07:33
Sory,

Mycenean
wa-na-ka FanaX

http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%BE



also can be found in Homer, Xenophon, Sophocles Herakleitos and others.

it is a famous moto from Antigone Sophocles
afraid the gods more than the king (anaka)


now Sophocles has nothing to do with religion, but with theatre,
Xenophon has nothing to do with religion but with writting history,

the rest is your known imagination of an Albanocentric world.

If ancient Greeks spoke Albanian as you say, then why no theatrical act is in Albanian (if existed that time in Illyria) so simple people to understand it?

MOESAN
02-11-12, 15:42
I agree with Yetos answering Zeus: only a religious language: from what sources???
concerning aspects of languages classification, I have the feeling that principally Centum/Satem division is a relatively late enough phonetic-ethnic evolution and that the links between greek, armenian and indo-iranic languages is old enough when the ancient I-E was spoken by first elite (new?)comers along Black Sea shores - the I-E was transmitted to different background people with different pronounciation habits - I don't know enough about baltic languages but what I think I know is that in proto-slavic population the habit was strong: not only the principal trait of satemization, it's to say palatization of stops, took place in ancient slavic, but the habit continued to produce effect (as in Oïl french, but very stronger and very earlier) and subsequent palatizations occurred in slavic languages: I don't know for other satem ones and I regret it -

Zeus10
02-11-12, 17:37
I agree with Yetos answering Zeus: only a religious language: from what sources???


It is a known fact that throughout history the clergy has held a ruling position, and has differentiated themselves from the common people. The knowledge and education was a privilege only to the clergy, who were at the same time the rulers. One of the most known rulers in the history are the so called "Romans", whose elite as any other theocracy is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group. They were using an excellent Greek, in the law courts, in the political debate, in the speeches, in the liturgy, in the administrative, rhetoric and esthetics and especially in religious literature and inscriptions, BEFORE the so called Latin was fully developed, and used beside the ""Greek"" language. This is the reason we find Greek, in every Roman "path":

http://i47.tinypic.com/2vxlxc0.jpg

which is nowhere to be proven as a vernacular language.

Yetos
04-11-12, 09:21
It is a known fact that throughout history the clergy has held a ruling position, and has differentiated themselves from the common people. The knowledge and education was a privilege only to the clergy, who were at the same time the rulers. One of the most known rulers in the history are the so called "Romans", whose elite as any other theocracy is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group. They were using an excellent Greek, in the law courts, in the political debate, in the speeches, in the liturgy, in the administrative, rhetoric and esthetics and especially in religious literature and inscriptions, BEFORE the so called Latin was fully developed, and used beside the ""Greek"" language. This is the reason we find Greek, in every Roman "path":

http://i47.tinypic.com/2vxlxc0.jpg

which is nowhere to be proven as a vernacular language.




I wonder are the signs of roads 'Clergy language'?

Concerning that Half of Italy.
Half of Balkans,
Minor Asia,
Levantine
Parts of Middle East
Egypt.
Parts of France (Marseille spoke Greek 600 years before Romans, and even today Greek are spoken there)
Parts of Spain (Murcia, Emporion)
Most of Black sea, from Pontus to Crimea.
spoke Greek as 1rst or 2nd language after local for more than 400-who knows, years what do you expect Romans to do?

HOW ROMANS SHOW THEIR GLORY, and supreme AND INSPIRE FEAR TO A NON ROMAN POPULATION. IF NOT ALSO SPEAK TO A KNOWN LANGUAGE?

besides that time mainly had 3 alphabets (Persian, Greco-phoenisian, Greco-Latin (Cyme's))


part b).

Clergy and education,

IF GREEK WAS A CLERGY LANGUAGE?
THEN WHY EACH WRITTER USES ITS OWN DIALECT?
DON"T CLERICS TEACH THEM 1 LANGUAGE?

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT HAVING DIALECTS AND LOCAL IDIOMS MEANS THAT GREEK WAS A VIVID LANGUAGE, AND NOT A CLERGY LANGUAGE


C).

the position of priest in ancient world,

Lets see Homer and its myceneans

AGAMEMNON and Achileus took by force, the daughters of Apollo's high priest in Iliad.
clearly a no fear of priests society,

In Odysseus also, limited priests, but many gods.

Athens and κυλωνειον αγος
in the revolts against Thyrrenians we see many times to slain priests, and after that in Democracy we see not a word about Priests,
in Aristotle's Athenean constitution, we Don't even find the word Priest.
MEaning that in Athenean democracy Priest was like a working class

Sparta,
εφοροι, Eforians (priest and rest) lived outside the city, why? if Priests were a rulling class won't they live inside the city, especially in the center?
Leonidas takes 300 men and goes to war against the priest's commands. why?

Phillip the Makedonian
Many times we see the 'respect' Phillip gave to the priests, He used them to sign treaties, but always broke them, he gave them in purpose wrong informations, why?


CAUSE ANCIENT GREEKS SPEAK AND CHALLENEGE THE GODS, FEAR THE GODS, RESPECT THE WIZZARDS (oracles), BUT NEVER AFRAID OF PRIESTS.

so how come priests were a rulling class in Greek world?




Lets go to Byzantines,
Yes Priests in Christianity manage to be a rulling class, they inspire the fear by killing millions of Greeks with the help of Roman emperrors. (Codex Theodosianus, religia illicata)

but lets see if Greek was a clergy language in Byzantines.
in the main Greek speaking areas of East Roman part yes Liturgy was in Greek, But did they force the Slavs to learn Greek so to become Christians?
did they force the Arabic Christians of palestine to learn Greek? did they force the Christins of Egypt or Antioch Syria to learn Greek so to have a liturgy?

NO,in Fact the oposite, they were the 1rst who translate the bible in many other non greek languages and they Help in the creation and formation of Slavic languages and Alphabet.

So if Greek was a Clergy language, Why Clerics did not force Slavs and others to Learn Greek, so to become Christians?

Modern Greece.
following the steps of Grand fathers, from the revolt of 1700' (Orlov's etc) Greeks never listen priests, it is not funny how many Greeks are expelled by priests cause they revolt against Ottomans.
for your Information Υψηλαντης Ipsilantis, The revolt spirit, and the first who raise the flag is still expelled by priests, and when he died he was burried in Vienna, outside Greece, showing the priests that he is not afraid them.

The only Clergy language in Europe was Christian Latin (313-) until the days translation of bible and liturgy was done to the Catholic area churches.
Except Etruscans, THERE WAS NO THEOCRATIC STATE IN ANCIENT EUROPE BEFORE CHRISTIANITY

In modern Europe, Russians are the most in numbers and Deutsch is second,
Yet majority of Europe speaks English, does that allow us to say that English is a Clergy language in a Hundred years?
Today in each country after local language all labels and signs of streets are in English.
Does This makes English a Clergy language?




http://comps.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/FSD/FSD311/x20975324.jpg

YES in ARABIA ALL SIGNS ARE ALSO IN ENGLISH.
SO CLERGY IN ARABIA SPEAKS ENGLISH, AND ISLAMIC LITURGY IS IN ENGLISH.
by following your theory, that is why English is so spread all over the world,
cause it is a Clergy language?

is that logic to you?

English and Francais and Spanish are wide spoken all over the world, not due to the colonies that they had? but thanks to 'Religion language' ?
Montreal in Canada speaks Francais due to religion, and Zulu in south Africa learn English or Dutch as second language due to religion?

MOESAN
04-11-12, 11:40
I agree with Yetos here, as a whole - greek seams having been a 'lingua franca' for trade more than a religious language: latine was a religious language and became the language of (religious) intellectuals in the Middle Ages because at that time the only instructed people was under the strong control of catholics- state = church at that time - but even at that stage, latin was not the language of folk and never became to be -
and let's remember that Roman Empire has not always been a religious state exportating its believings , not at its beginning when greek was the 'intellectual elite' s language - Roma relied more in military force than in religious power (individual religion, not a state one)-

Jaska
08-11-12, 04:49
Interestingly, Proto-Greek (when reconstructed based on Greek dialects and Mycenean) seems to have been very close to archaic Indo-European: [Google: Andrew Garrett 2006: Convergence in the formation of Indo-European subgroups: Phylogeny and chronology]

Satemization then seems to have been an areal phenomenon: it is argued that it and the RUKI-rule happened in different order in Aryan and Balto-Slavic. Also centumization seems to have been a secondary phenomenon: it happened in Hittite only after the Proto-Anatolian stage.

MOESAN
08-11-12, 12:55
it would prove ancient greek was not the result of a 'second hand' indo-europeanization -

Zeus10
14-11-12, 02:15
I agree with Yetos here, as a whole - greek seams having been a 'lingua franca' for trade more than a religious language: latine was a religious language and became the language of (religious) intellectuals in the Middle Ages because at that time the only instructed people was under the strong control of catholics- state = church at that time - but even at that stage, latin was not the language of folk and never became to be -
and let's remember that Roman Empire has not always been a religious state exportating its believings , not at its beginning when greek was the 'intellectual elite' s language - Roma relied more in military force than in religious power (individual religion, not a state one)-

Church or trade language, diplomatic, administrative, working or intellectuals one, the so called "Greek" language, always appears as a vehicular language. It has been documented as a religious language on the very start:

http://i48.tinypic.com/312a72t.jpg

and kept the same appearance in the secular literature, widely considered "Ancient" which "misteriously" has been writen many-many centuries after, like this oldest Iliad copy, which belongs to the 10-th Century AD.

http://i46.tinypic.com/212j0o8.jpg

or like this other "ancient" text:

http://i45.tinypic.com/11t3adt.jpg

Yetos
14-11-12, 04:59
Church or trade language, diplomatic, administrative, working or intellectuals one, the so called "Greek" language, always appears as a vehicular language. It has been documented as a religious language on the very start:

http://i48.tinypic.com/312a72t.jpg

and kept the same appearance in the secular literature, widely considered "Ancient" which "misteriously" has been writen many-many centuries after, like this oldest Iliad copy, which belongs to the 10-th Century AD.

http://i46.tinypic.com/212j0o8.jpg

or like this other "ancient" text:

http://i45.tinypic.com/11t3adt.jpg


AND AGAIN THE http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgqCjfKH1WhucttLENgsIyX2p2T_ZhU dF8z5scy7nRTzCn3khnOl_z_Ag STRIKES AGAIN WITH FALSE DOCUMENTS


Tell us Zeus10
from what time is that documents?

WHY YOU http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgqCjfKH1WhucttLENgsIyX2p2T_ZhU dF8z5scy7nRTzCn3khnOl_z_Ag?
DO YOU GET PAYED BY SOMEONE?


TELL US NOW FROM WHAT TIME- CENTURY ITS THE PHOTOS YOU POST?

ARE THEY ANCIENT GREEK?

NO, SIMPLY YOU ARE ΤΡΟΛΛΙΓΚ, KNOWING THAT ONLY FEW KNOW GREEK, AND PROVIDING PHOTOS GREEK TEXT FROM MORE THAN 2000 EXELIXIS OF GREEK,


WHY YOU POST BYZANTINE TEXTS AS ANCIENT GREEK?
DO YOU GET PAYED FOR PROVIDING WRONG INFORMATION?
OR YOU JUST http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTNt_lFJWRSh8Bc2kXCcBG2K36C4ctC uP9Aby4--1BmjAqw7iEXz1y3w?

TELL US WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE?


THE START OF GREEK LANGUAGE IS MYCENEAN and Greco-aryan
THE 1RST WRITTING ARE FROM HOMER AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR ALBANOCENTRIC THEORY that albanian is the mother of all IE languages,
THE PHOTOS YOU SHOW US ARE AT LEAST 2000-2500 YEARS AFTER MYCENEAN, when Greek were spoken all over the known world,


STOP ΤΡΟΛΛΙΝΓΚ, Nobody believes you,
even those who do not know Greek,

Look at the text you show us,
ARE THESE LETTERS ANCIENT GREEK ALPHABET?
Tell us are they ancient Greek alphabet?
Show us your linguistic knowledge, as you show us your ΤΡΟΛΛ skills



SHOWING US BYZANTINE TEXTS AS ANCIENT GREEK DOES NOT HONOR YOU


Meaning that you do that, either in purpose, either due to ignorance, choose and answer us

At least can you translate us the txts?


WHY YOU BAPTISE A BYZANTINE TEXT AS ANCIENT?


Providing theories based on wrong information and evidence,
Facultation or hiding of documents,
is a lie that shows either Ignorance, either purpose-propaganda, either that ugly green creatures that hold a wooden bat.



PS

http://www.bestnorwegian.com/images/Trollstigen_Trollsign0090.jpg




PS 2

AT LEAST ANSWER US A QUESTION,
ARE BYZANTINE GREEK, PROTO-GREEK?



PS 3
ALL THE DOCUMENTS YOU PROVIDED IN POST ARE CHRISTIAN, AND ONE IS TRANSLATION OF 70,

TELL US PSEUDO-ZEUS10 WERE ANCIENT GREEKS CHRISTRIANS?




PS 4

you say that last text is ancient,
why don't you give us the source, the author, the book name, where it was found,
WHY?

Cause it is not ancient


simply you know few know ancient Greek, and you facultate and provide documents of Byzantines or Christians, as ancient Greek.

If I give you Iliad in Homeric language then you will understand what was Proto-Greek, which surely has nothing to do with Albanian which is a 'Northern Language'
Just search the word ΑΥΤΑΡ in Homer and modern Greek παραυτα,
until you answer me and write it in English and Albanian to see the difference among Greco-Aryan and North Languages ΟΥ ΧΑΙΡΕΙΝ, ΔΙΚΗΣ ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΟΥΣ ΜΕΝΟΥ, ΝΕΜΕΣΙΝ ΠΡΟΣΜΕΝΟΥ, ΟΣΩΝ ΛΑΞΕΥΣΑΣ ΙΣΤΟΡΕΣ ΘΕΟΙ.



http://www.persee.fr/renderPage/bch_0007-4217_1912_num_36_1_3152/0/710/bch_0007-4217_1912_num_36_1_T1_0353_0000.jpg



the above is in stone, at 6th Century BC
we clearly the word ΑFΕΘΛΑ (Moern Greek ΕΠΑΘΛΑ) which is simmilar with Thessalian AFEΘΛΩι (IA 328 Museums code) and the Pamfylian Language according (Collitz 1267 evidence) AΓΕΘΛΑ

As you see GREEK WAS SPOKEN AND WRITTEN BEFORE CHRISTIANS,
AND WAS NOT A RELIGION LANGUAGE, CAUSE IT HAS DIALECTS, IT IS A VIVID LANGUAGE
A FAMILY LANGUAGE that came FROM THE BIG FAMILY OF GRECO_ARYAN
spoken even in Pamfylia


Funny, you just make my day, better ask for someone to calm down the incoming ΕΡΙΝΥΕΣ, cause your Sacriledge is a challenge Θεοις τε και Ανθρωποις.
I wonder, do you live in ΕΡΙΣ house with ΑΡΑΝΤΙΔΕΣ?

Taranis
14-11-12, 09:45
What the... seriously Yetos, stop that! No matter how much you may or may not disagree with a discussion other, there's no justification to insult a board like that. You're receiving an infraction for this one.

And for Zeus, I think that he is simply making an untestable hypothesis. He argues that the language actually spoken by the ancient Greeks was a completely different one from the language in literature. This spoken language, of course, is entirely unattested. Because it is unattested, there is no way to test this, and indeed, according to occam's razor, this hypothesis is entirely unnecessary unless one has the foregone conclusion such a language must exist despite the absence of evidence. But, I have a set of straightforward questions that will help clarify this:

1) Zeus, do you believe that the comparative method is fundamentally flawed?

2) if that is the case, how do you incorporate other Indo-European languages? How do you apply your ideas to non-Indo-European languages and language families?

3) do you believe into a conspiracy in the academia to cover up things?

Yetos
14-11-12, 13:02
Challenging Gods or Humans is a man's Virtue and is in Human nature, no matter ignorance, stupidity or Bravery, Ειμαρμενη is always ally of the challenger,

But when challenge becomes ΥΒΡΙΣ, Ειμαρμενη leaves challenger, sending ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ and ΕΡΙΝΥΕΣ follow

Those who believe that know the language of Homer understand.

Zeus10
14-11-12, 18:58
AND AGAIN THE STRIKES AGAIN WITH FALSE DOCUMENTS



Tell us Zeus10
from what time is that documents?

WHY YOU ?
DO YOU GET PAYED BY SOMEONE?


TELL US NOW FROM WHAT TIME- CENTURY ITS THE PHOTOS YOU POST?

ARE THEY ANCIENT GREEK?

NO, SIMPLY YOU ARE ΤΡΟΛΛΙΓΚ, KNOWING THAT ONLY FEW KNOW GREEK, AND PROVIDING PHOTOS GREEK TEXT FROM MORE THAN 2000 EXELIXIS OF GREEK,


WHY YOU POST BYZANTINE TEXTS AS ANCIENT GREEK?
DO YOU GET PAYED FOR PROVIDING WRONG INFORMATION?
OR YOU JUST ?


Why? Because this is all what we possess about "Ancient Texts", just Byzantine literature. As a matter of fact the PICTURE nr 2(previous post) was taken from a page from Venetus A, which represent the oldest known complete copy of Iliad that we possess:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2gy2jv4.jpg

Everything else we have about "Ancient Literature" is just small papyrus fragments like this one:

http://i50.tinypic.com/65akcw.jpg

which also date the same period of time.

These texts seem very similar in appearance and most of all in language to the Septuagint ones, like the one I brought in the PICTURE Nr-1(previous post) Esdras in the Codex Vaticanus .
or this other one:
Codex Sinaiticus, a manuscript of the Christian Bible written in the middle of the fourth century, contains the earliest complete copy of the Christian New Testament
http://i48.tinypic.com/26061ch.jpg
Now that I brought the references, I hope you stop doubting my integrity.

Zeus10
14-11-12, 19:24
1) Zeus, do you believe that the comparative method is fundamentally flawed?

No, I strongly beleive in the comparative method, but I am against the "formula" used to reconstruct PIE lexicon.


2) if that is the case, how do you incorporate other Indo-European languages? How do you apply your ideas to non-Indo-European languages and language families?


I strongly beleive that beside Albanian and maybe 1 or 2 other Europian languages, 'grown up' as family-hearth languages on the first place, all other so called IE languages, are local developments of the main European Vehicular languages. Being such, they might be considered vernacular languages, only for the last 1000 years or less, and only because of gradual transformation of local religious communities to ethnic nations like they appear today.


3) do you believe into a conspiracy in the academia to cover up things?

I do beleive into a legal conspiracy, inspired by the Church clergy, especially during the Renaissance, to take the credits for the spectacular Ancient Culture, and to hide the truth of the profound cultural depression, the humanity on this part of the World went through, during the autocratic ruling of the Christianity. It was excactly these theocrats, who own the "knowledge" and for at least 1000 years offering a biased version of the History, to the public.

Yetos
14-11-12, 20:16
By showing papyrs and leather is not the only evidence,

Stones speak by them shelves,

Pella katadesmos is not a Papyrus made Christians monks, but the language of Ancient Makedonians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Pella_leaded_tablet_%28katadesmos%29_4th_Century.J PG/800px-Pella_leaded_tablet_%28katadesmos%29_4th_Century.J PG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg/400px-Pellatab.jpg

That Text is at least 6 Centuries Before Christians
Meaning that Greek were vivid and not a church Language,

All texts connect with stone Marks, with furniture Marks and even with jewells and what ever can you imagine,

A good example is that in Iliad we find a language that was almost not Spoken by Christians,
why If they facultate ancient texts, did not change vocabulary which even today can not be explained?

After that archaiological evidence I ask, do you still deny ancient Greek language?

The Bellow is the dedication of Alexander to Athena Pallas

http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/images/k63220_l.jpg

It is the museum of London,
code No GR 1870.3-20.88

Is that also a church document? is that also younger than your photos in your Post?

[7] Alexander’s letter to Chians
In 334 BCE, Alexander invaded Asia as leader (hegemon) of the Corinthian league, the alliance of Greek cities and the Macedonian king that was to fight against the Achaemenid Empire.
One of the articles of the Corinthian treaty stated that the Greek towns were to remain autonomous, and that their constitutions were to remain unchanged.
However, the Greek cities in Asia Minor were no members, and Alexander did interfere with their internal affairs, as is shown in the following letter to the people of the island of Chios.



From king Alexander to the people of Chios,
written in the prytany of Deisitheos:[1]
All those exiled from Chios are to return [2], and the constitution on Chios is to be democratic. Drafters of legislation are to be selected to write and emend the laws so as to ensure that there be no impediment to a democratic constitution and the return of the exiles. Anything already emended or drafted is to be referred to Alexander.
The people of Chios are to supply twenty triremes, with crews, at their own expense, and these are to sail for as long as the rest of the Greek naval force accompanies us at sea.
With respect to those men who betrayed the city to the barbarians, all those who escaped are to be exiled from all the cities that share the peace [of Corinth], and to be liable to seizure under the decree of the Greeks. Those who have been caught are to be brought back and tried in the Council of the Greeks. In the event of disagreement between those who have returned and those in the city, in that matter they are to be judged by us.
Until a reconciliation is reached among the people of Chios, they are to have in their midst a garrison of appropriate strength installed by king Alexander. The people of Chios are to maintain the garrison.
Remark 1:
The prytany of Deisitheos was probably in 334, but the formula “from king Alexander” is not common before the battle of Issus in 333.
Remark 2:
One of the returned exiles was the historian Theopompus.
http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/Chios/Tod192.jpg



Is that the same time with your pappyrus you provide us?
is that text big enough to prove

i gave at least 3 Makedonian

now here is another one in the archaic writting system

THAT IS THE SAME LANGUAGE THAT HOMER USED SAME CENTURIES THAT HESIOD WROTE

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Nestor%27s_Cup_Ischia_Front.jpg

NESTOR's CUP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Nestor_Cup_Cumae.jpg/300px-Nestor_Cup_Cumae.jpg

What is written inside cup 1000 years before the text you provide us as ancient.

So GREEK IS A LANGUAGE THAT EXISTED BEFORE CHURCH.
AND GREEK WAS SPOKEN BY COMMON PEOPLE, KINGS, SOLDIERS, FARMERS,

AND AS ARCHAIOLOGY SAY AT LEAST MILLENIUM BEFORE THE TIME YOU PROPOSE,

YOU DENY ILIAD,
DO YOU DENY THE NESTOR'S CUP ALSO?

hiding or denying evidences is not showing virtue,

Zeus10
14-11-12, 20:32
That Text is at least 6 Centuries Before Christians


What makes you so sure about this?


Pella katadesmos is not a Papyrus made Christians monks, but the language of Ancient Makedonians

How do you know that? And what's the definition for the "Ancient Makedonians" ?

Yetos
14-11-12, 20:39
What makes you so sure about this?


International archaiologists acceptance, radio-carbon methods, X-rays

Maybe in order to prove your theory we must deny arcaiology, Physics, chemistry etc?

NESTOR's CUP IS A FULL TEXT translated and accepted by academics, Now plz next time you provide photos of ancient Greek text plz provide that photo also, and tell them that was written in the 'church' language, or maybeChurch in order to bias church language they creted a theocratic Linguistic conspiracy, and they write the above texts, and build the cup,




I do beleive into a legal conspiracy, inspired by the Church clergy, especially during the Renaissance, to take the credits for the spectacular Ancient Culture, and to hide the truth of the profound cultural depression, the humanity on this part of the World went through, during the autocratic ruling of the Christianity. It was excactly these theocrats, who own the "knowledge" and for at least 1000 years offering a biased version of the History, to the public.

that is the work that archaiologists do.
they shearch and excavate to find what existed before the today, and thanks to them we know more,
as you see excavations show us at least the double your pappyrs show,
cause leather (pergamene) or stone can live longer that pappyrus in wet climates.

Zeus10
14-11-12, 21:04
International archaiologists acceptance, radio-carbon methods, X-rays

Maybe in order to prove your theory we must deny arcaiology, Physics, chemistry etc?
NESTOR's CUP IS A FULL TEXT translated and accepted by academics, Now plz next time you provide photos of ancient Greek text plz provide that photo also, and tell them that was written in the 'church' language,



I should remind you, Radiocarbon C14 dating method, is applied to estimate the age ONLY of organic remains from the archeological sites. This method is not valid in regards to inorganic remains like stones, or even metalic artifacts like Nestor's cup.

Yetos
14-11-12, 21:16
I should remind you, Radiocarbon C14 dating method, is applied to estimate the age ONLY of organic remains from the archeological sites. This method is not valid in regards to inorganic remains like stones, or even metalic artifacts like Nestor's cup.

Sorry I see that you did not even trouble to search about Nestor's cup.
Nestor's cup is not a mettalic, but a clay one a pottery,, and clay is being roasted, so carbon exists in all.

Besides if I am wrong about date, then you must ask the laboratories (2 at least for rare relics)


a good start is at wiki, before search scientific more,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor%27s_cup

search the 3rd cup.

By the way, when we speak about Greek language we do not speak a country language, but about a family, like Germanic are deutsch dutch Austrian etc
Greek belongs to the Greco-Aryan family with Armenian Aryan and Thracian (although the last is still in debate) while Albanian belongs to the same family with Germanic Slavic Baltic,
θυρα Dera Door
Αυταρ Afer ΑFTER etc

so it is impossible Greek to be originated from Albanian and the opposite, yet the common vocabulary is from colonies, immigration and the kadmeian branch of Illyrians

Eρεβος Ereb ΕREBU(semitic probably phoenician)

Zeus10
14-11-12, 21:25
Sorry I see that you did not even trouble to search about Nestor's cup.
Nestor's cup is not a mettalic, but a clay one a pottery,, and clay is being roasted, so carbon exists in all.

Besides if I am wrong about date, then you must ask the laboratories (2 at least for rare relics)


a good start is at wiki, before search scientific more,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor%27s_cup

search the 3rd cup.
Sorry Yetos, but clay is an inorganic material too.

Yetos
14-11-12, 21:37
Sorry Yetos, but clay is an inorganic material too.

yet pottery has radio carbon since it is burned to get hardened,
Paintings also are organic made by plantation, even today some colours still made by plants.

Besides I dare to declare myshelf as non master in chemistry and physics, so better ask the Museum of Lacco Ameno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacco_Ameno) in ITALY.
they said the date 750 BC, not me,
so in case you believe that this is a bias evidence by theocrats then ask them how they dated 750 years before Christ.

Do you believe that Italian museums are in the same conspiracy also?

http://www.pithecusae.it/index.htm

that is the page in case you want to communicate.

Zeus10
14-11-12, 21:47
yet pottery has radio carbon since it burned,
Paintings also are organic made by plantation,

Besides I dare to declare myshelf as non master, so better ask the Museum of Lacco Ameno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacco_Ameno) in ITALY.
the said the date 750 BC, not me,
so in case yoy believe that this is a bias evidence by theocrats then ask them how they dated 750 years before Christ.

The carbon C14 is not acquired through burning. The process is described as the following:

When plants fix atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) into organic matter during photosynthesis they incorporate a quantity of 14C that approximately matches the level of this isotope in the atmosphere. After plants die or they are consumed by other organisms (for example, by humans or other animals), the accumulation of 14C fraction stops and the material declines at a fixed exponential rate due to the radioactive decay of 14C. Comparing the remaining 14C fraction of a sample to that expected from atmospheric 14C allows the age of the sample to be estimated.

Yetos
14-11-12, 21:52
The carbon C14 is not acquired through burning. The process is described as the following:

are you playing with my nerves?

Besides I dare to declare myshelf as non master in chemistry and physics, so better ask the Museum of Lacco Ameno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacco_Ameno) in ITALY.
they said the date 750 BC, not me,
Link is bellow
http://http://www.pithecusae.it/index.htm

Are you trying to say that a museum with Italian ministry supervision, is telling us lies about the date?
Why you don't ask them their methods? If you can prove that both cup and dipylon are fake in chronology and after Christian era or at least after Alexander I will follow your theory

MOESAN
15-11-12, 01:13
If I resume the Zeuss thoughts:
greek is a religious (forged? by whom upon what? for what purpose?) language that found good issue only in Greece? why Romans, so influenced by greek civilisation and greek religion and greek language did not retain greek language and at the contrary imposed latin language in huge territories? and why only Greek speakers of Griece and colonies made vernacular dialects of it, early enough in History? as a rule, the religious written languages remain standardized enough...

Zeus10
15-11-12, 19:30
greek is a religious .

Greek was a religious language on the first place.


(forged? by whom upon what? for what purpose?)

Created by clergy for liturgy and religious writing.


language that found good issue only in Greece?

Absolutely not. The artifacts show us that language was spread all over Mediteranean, especially into Roman centers, like Constandinople and Rome. It was excactly these Romans who can take the credits for the creation of the so called "Greek" language, which was in use during Paleochristianity and then based on Greek replaced by another Roman invention, the Latin language.


why Romans, so influenced by greek civilisation and greek religion and greek language did not retain greek language and at the contrary imposed latin language in huge territories? and why only Greek speakers of Griece and colonies made vernacular dialects of it, early enough in History? as a rule, the religious written languages remain standardized enough..

There was no any Greek civilisation during history, let alone a distinct ethnic group. If we will trust the un reliable "Ancient Literature" we hardly can associate the mythical religious elite called Hellenes(ethnonym: Ἕλλην), to the Eastern Roman Christians called Romaioi( Ρωμαίος/Ρωμιός). The latest were not acknowledged as the inheritors of the Romans, but rather perceived to be continuation of Ancient Greeks in modern people eyes, and this is the crucial point understanding history. The ""Greeks"" have no ancienty, they are just a portion of the so called Romans, when the christianity had'nt 'gained' yet, that mistical character that has today.

Taranis
15-11-12, 20:26
There was no any Greek civilisation during history, let alone a distinct ethnic group. If we will trust the un reliable "Ancient Literature" we hardly can associate the mythical religious elite called Hellenes(ethnonym: Ἕλλην), to the East Roman Christians called Romaioi( Ρωμαίος/Ρωμιός). The latest were not acknowledged as the inheritors of the Romans, but rather perceived to be continuation of Ancient Greeks in modern people eyes, and this is the crucial point understanding history. The ""Greeks"" have no ancienty, they are just a portion of the so called Romans, when the christianity had'nt 'gained' yet, that mistical character that has today.

Tell me Zeus, could you explain us why and how your ideas are superior to, and indeed to be taken any more seriously than, the ideas of Heribert Illig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis) or Anatoly Fomenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko))?

Zeus10
15-11-12, 23:51
Tell me Zeus, could you explain us why and how your ideas are superior to, and indeed to be taken any more seriously than, the ideas of Heribert Illig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis) or Anatoly Fomenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko))?

I agree to Anatoly Fomenko, who argues that the conventional chronology is fundamentally flawed. Also I agree that the events attributed to antiquity actually occurred during the Middle Ages, but I can not decide the length of time that these events really occured after. To reach a definite conclusion you must be an expert in archicecture, linguistics, archeology and historiography at the same time, which I am not, but obviously I have noticed a huge discrapency betwen conventional history and real events. One thing I know for sure, is that the history of the human race , is not the one of the "ethne-s", but that of the religion and rulers, and in this regard to talk about especially proto-Greek and proto-Latin, is senseless.

Yetos
16-11-12, 00:04
Greek was a religious language on the first place.



Created by clergy for liturgy and religious writing.



Absolutely not. The artifacts show us that language was spread all over Mediteranean, especially into Roman centers, like Constandinople and Rome. It was excactly these Romans who can take the credits for the creation of the so called "Greek" language, which was in use during Paleochristianity and then based on Greek replaced by another Roman invention, the Latin language.



There was no any Greek civilisation during history, let alone a distinct ethnic group. If we will trust the un reliable "Ancient Literature" we hardly can associate the mythical religious elite called Hellenes(ethnonym: Ἕλλην), to the East Roman Christians called Romaioi( Ρωμαίος/Ρωμιός). The latest were not acknowledged as the inheritors of the Romans, but rather perceived to be continuation of Ancient Greeks in modern people eyes, and this is the crucial point understanding history. The ""Greeks"" have no ancienty, they are just a portion of the so called Romans, when the christianity had'nt 'gained' yet, that mistical character that has today.


Sory?

if you ever read Christian saints you will see that the termination Ελλην was a word simmilar to religia illicata,
Ellhn in Byzantine was synonym of not Christian,
If you search about Scythopolis and Theodosius etc they genocide millions of Greeks in order to establish Christianity.
East Roman Empire, how the citizen could be named?
2 options
1.) Greeks Ελληνες that meant Death
2.) Romans ρωμιοι that means acceptance of Christianity and emperror

so all citizen under roman empire were Ρωμιοι,
but were they?
the answer is no,

lets look at this video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd6hJ5YKOp0



it even follows Pythagoreian armony of 1/2 1/3 1/4

In south Italy Latin is the primary Church language,
How come these people speak Greak and the one of the 2 Doric dialects still alive?


the best reply to you is this video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UcAYP4irSyQ


as you Pontic Greeks speak simmilar with Hellenes Ελληνες of 6th-7th century BC
while that language is not Hellenistic but more old,
in the Biblical and Christian Greek infinitive drops to 1 while these people have 4 and Homeric had 6
the usage of Aorist sends us at least 600 years before the translation of 70 to Hellenistic

they name them shelves Roumans Ρουμαικα cause in that land a terrible Saint name Basileios from Ceasareia who even dare to challenge Jullian as Apostate and probably murder him as some Historians say when he was in fight against Persians

Yet some ancient Greek custom survive to them as The momogeroi μωμογεροι which is known to every ancient Greek as festivals dedicated to God Komos or Momos Κωμος, after him comedy has its name,

youtube;mnikI0kAYzs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnikI0kAYzs&feature=related

As you see these festivals later in Greece become Dionysus Fests but not in them,
and the strange is that existed in Thracians Phrygians even to Kallash

besides take a look at all ancient Greek dances, they have 1 common,
that is the hit on the ground,
from all the word 3 nations hit the Ground,
1. Zulu
2 Laz Kurds and the rest Aryan
3 Greeks
why? ask Κουρητες.

SO IF GREEK WAS A CLERGY LANGUAGE, HOW COME MITHRIDATES PEOPLE SPEAK A LANGUAGE BEFORE THE GREEK OF EAST CHURCH? in FACT OLDER THAN THE KNOWN THETRICAL DRAMAS?
WERE THEY LEARN IT? IN SCHOOLS? in UNIVERSITIES?


IN 1821 the head of Greek revolt Υψηλαντης

http://www.serrelib.gr/images/si1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Ypsilantis

in order to decide the name of the new state had a problem with church,
church wanted to name the state after Byzantines as Rome Ρωμυλια etc
Ypsilantis was expelled by all East Churches and was burried in Wienn cause he ramed it Greek Eλληνικον.
after the language and customs of the local people.

What I wonder is that Greek still are spoken in Ucraine Georgia Turkey Egypt were the Church does not Speak Greek,
WHY?
why people in South Italy still speak and sing in Greek and not in Latin which is the Church language
there?

only 1 answer

GREEK or ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ Were, are (and will be?) a nation and not a religious class or a sum of believers.

If Greek was a clergy language?
How Do you explain that Greek is Spoken in Ucraine Russia Georgia France Egypt and South Italy? where the church speaks Russian Georgian Latin etc???

Zeus10
16-11-12, 00:32
Yetos, I think you are struggling a bit to come up with a clear and rational opinion, and very often what you write just supports my thesis.

Yetos
16-11-12, 00:47
ZEUS I THINK you just make my day again

1. WHY YOU NEVER ANSWER MY QUESTIONS?

2) HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT GREEK PEOPLE SPEAK GREEK WITH FORMS ANCIENT THAN THE GREEK SPEAKING CHURCH DOES?

3) HOT DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=j_moKVDN2YA&NR=1


THE WORD IS MIROLOYIS in TURKEY Y in TURKISH IS Γ GREEK G LATIN SO MIROLOWHIS AS SOUND
ANCIENT GREEK ΜΟΙΡΟΛΟΓΕΙΣ MIROLOGIS- MIROLOWHIS

THE WORD MOIRA AND MOIROLOI DOES NOT EXIST IN CHURCH, IN BIBLE AND IS CONSIDERED RELIGIA ILLICATA AND FORBIDEN
HOW COME THESE PEOPLE KNOW IT IF THEY LEARN GREEK FROM CHURCH?
HOW COME THESE PEOPLE KNOW GOD KOMOS-MOMOS (ΚΩΜΟΣ- ΜΩΜΟΣ) SINCE THEY LEARN GREEK FROM CHRISTIAN CHURCH?
DID CHRISTIANS ALSO TEACH THEM ANCIENT GREEK GODS?

ANSWER THAT ZEUS10
AT LEAST GIVE US A CLEAR ANSWER TO THAT PHENOIMENA

1 How come Greek are spoken in Georgia a non Greek land and a non Greek church, and how come in Italy a Latin speaking church.
2. If Greek is a religious language how come people speak with ancient forms closer to Homeric than the Hellenistic2 and Byzantine?
3. If People learn Greek or Rumeika from Christian church how come they know ancient GreeK paganistic dances and names? isn't that oxymoron?

REMEMBER THAT MOST OF THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT CHRISTIANS BUT MUSLIMS FOR CENTURIES,
SO IN THEIR TEMPLES THEY HEAR TURKISH and ARABIC FOR CENTURIES.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT GREEK ARE SPOKEN TO PEOPLE WHOSE CLERGY LANGUAGE IS NOT GREEK?

4.) If GREEK WAS FORCED TO PEOPLE BY CHRISTIANS AND BYZANTINES? WHY SERBS BULGARIANS ETC DID NOT LEARN GREEK? WHY ANTIOCHEIAN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS DID NOT LEARN GREEK?

I think all evidences and question are not sharing your thesis,
Text older than you provide,
Speaking people that do not share the Church language,
paganistic names and dances that are forbiden by church or Islam,
Linguistic forms older than church language surely show us that history is correct and greek was and is a vivid language spoken by the descendants of the proto-speakers.


Sorry until now you have proved nothing.
simply you just told us that you deny all academic and scientific results and methods,
you haven't show us a prove of your thesis, neither in linguistic neither in archaiologicical evidence, so I can not follow you.
Deny for deny, remind me those writers who claim global conspiracy to sell books

I wonderin your Post no #18 the photos of the pappyrus how old are they?

are you sure they are from 17 century? who dated them?

MOESAN
16-11-12, 01:12
So Romans never knew Greeks nor Hellenes? I lack classical latin History to answer this question already answered by serious historians... they knew only an indetermined population in S-E Europe that, spite being under Roma's foot, keep scrupulously speaking a religious language come from ??? a previous I-E religious jargon??? forged when??? upon what???
very good trick, the vainquished population give its language to the rulers elite, this elite that spent its time to change the name of greek gods? and by spirit of contradiction took after christianity (from Greeks?) and then reverse to latin language? or there was nothing as greek gods and Romans forged greek names for their own gods???
for the few I know the religious languages are former ethnic languages that take a "frozen" form and as a whole never survive among the people: look at semitic hebraic that was abandoned by Jews before being artificially took again (very rare occurrence in History), look at church latin, "frozen" form of late latin, that was abandoned too, finally... look at sanskrit that never become a vernacular: religious frozen stantardized languages need vulgar language, first, not the contrary
I think this at first intersting thread is coming to give me headache! I go to bed!
don't do nighmares!

Zeus10
21-11-12, 17:24
So Romans never knew Greeks nor Hellenes? I lack classical latin History to answer this question already answered by serious historians... they knew only an indetermined population in S-E Europe that, spite being under Roma's foot, keep scrupulously speaking a religious language come from ??? a previous I-E religious jargon??? forged when??? upon what???
very good trick, the vainquished population give its language to the rulers elite, this elite that spent its time to change the name of greek gods? and by spirit of contradiction took after christianity (from Greeks?) and then reverse to latin language? or there was nothing as greek gods and Romans forged greek names for their own gods???
for the few I know the religious languages are former ethnic languages that take a "frozen" form and as a whole never survive among the people: look at semitic hebraic that was abandoned by Jews before being artificially took again (very rare occurrence in History), look at church latin, "frozen" form of late latin, that was abandoned too, finally... look at sanskrit that never become a vernacular: religious frozen stantardized languages need vulgar language, first, not the contrary
I think this at first intersting thread is coming to give me headache! I go to bed!
don't do nighmares!

Romans elite, in a very heterogeneous city population, were the real Romans and they were exellent Greek speakers on the first place. The city itself as Juvenal’s Umbricius refers Rome in his work Satire III :


… Non possum ferre, Quirites,
Graecam urbem. Quamvis quota portio faecis Achaei?
Iam pridem Syrus in Tiberim defluxit Orontes
et linguam et mores et cum tibicine chordas
obliquas nec non gentilia tympana secum
vexit et ad circum iussas prostare puellas

a Greek City, but to my understanding not in ethnical perspective, but in the cultural one. It was exactly these Romans who inscribed the ""Greek"" all over Mediteranean, Egypt and Middle East. Sometimes we find these inscriptions in both Roman's languages, mostly following these order : Greek first, Latin below:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2e23wgk.jpg




[ἡ σύ]νκλητος καὶ ὁ δῆμος

Γάϊον Ἰούλιον Γαΐου υἱὸν Νάσωνα

ἀρετῆς καὶ εὐεργεσίας ἕνεκα.



senatus ∙ et ∙ populus ∙ Veliensis

C(aio) ∙ Iulio ∙ C(ai) ∙ f(ilio) ∙ Nasoni ∙ honoris

et ∙ virtutis ∙ causa.

Taranis
21-11-12, 17:49
I agree to Anatoly Fomenko, who argues that the conventional chronology is fundamentally flawed. Also I agree that the events attributed to antiquity actually occurred during the Middle Ages, but I can not decide the length of time that these events really occured after. To reach a definite conclusion you must be an expert in archicecture, linguistics, archeology and historiography at the same time, which I am not, but obviously I have noticed a huge discrapency betwen conventional history and real events. One thing I know for sure, is that the history of the human race , is not the one of the "ethne-s", but that of the religion and rulers, and in this regard to talk about especially proto-Greek and proto-Latin, is senseless.

I think both Fomenko's and Illig's ideas should be dismissed as pseudoscientific nonsense and charlatanry - and also, that should be obvious. Why? Because they are both surprisingly Eurocentric in their accounts of history (in the case of Fomenko, with the clear anti-western message in his work, this is of course quite ironic), because they assert that all historiography is the product of a European-based forgery, and they appear to be either ignorant or unaware of historic accounts from non-Western sources that - who'd knew - actually back up the "official" history that they seek to oppose.

So, let me ask you this now: what incentive should the Arabs, the Persians, the Indians and the Chinese have to be cooperating over centuries on the same, massive conspiracy as "the Church" (also, which church?)?

Zeus10
21-11-12, 18:53
I think both Fomenko's and Illig's ideas should be dismissed as pseudoscientific nonsense and charlatanry - and also, that should be obvious. Why? Because they are both surprisingly Eurocentric in their accounts of history (in the case of Fomenko, with the clear anti-western message in his work, this is of course quite ironic), because they assert that all historiography is the product of a European-based forgery, and they appear to be either ignorant or unaware of historic accounts from non-Western sources that - who'd knew - actually back up the "official" history that they seek to oppose.

I understand anti-European Fomenko's sentiment, but this is not a very good reason to dissmiss his entire work, especially for the fact that he has used very reliable statistical methods.



So, let me ask you this now: what incentive should the Arabs, the Persians, the Indians and the Chinese have to be cooperating over centuries on the same, massive conspiracy as "the Church" (also, which church?)?

We should base our understanding about history on the specific circumstances each particular history has been driven by. Drawing parallels modelling into the same some very different historical reallities might be one way of thinking, but shouldn't be our conclusive methodology to lead our reasoning to understand the past.

Yetos
21-11-12, 19:14
Romans elite, in a very heterogeneous city population, were the real Romans and they were exellent Greek speakers on the first place. The city itself as Juvenal’s Umbricius refers Rome in his work Satire III :



a Greek City, but to my understanding not in ethnical perspective, but in the cultural one. It was exactly these Romans who inscribed the ""Greek"" all over Mediteranean, Egypt and Middle East. Sometimes we find these inscriptions in both Roman's languages, mostly following these order : Greek first, Latin below:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2e23wgk.jpg




[ἡ σύ]νκλητος καὶ ὁ δῆμος

Γάϊον Ἰούλιον Γαΐου υἱὸν Νάσωνα

ἀρετῆς καὶ εὐεργεσίας ἕνεκα.



senatus ∙ et ∙ populus ∙ Veliensis

C(aio) ∙ Iulio ∙ C(ai) ∙ f(ilio) ∙ Nasoni ∙ honoris

et ∙ virtutis ∙ causa.

That is the Point,
Greek that time was just English today,
a global language, spoken by Greeks and non Greeks,
if I study today English literature am I british? No,
But answer me, How English is so expand today world wide? is it a church language?
answer is no, but due to colonisation, merchants, alphabet and written speech etc,
so how come Greek was so wide that time?
did church (which God?) force them to Learn Greek?
I am Greek, I also speak some English
did today Church force me to learn English?

the biggest nation today are Chinese, but world's most wide spoken language is English.
DO PEOPLE LEARN ENGLISH TODAY CAUSE OF RELIGION TO AGGLOSAXONIC CHURCH?

and a final question,
ok if Greek was a religious language, what language Myceneans spoke?
and what was the 'mother' language Homer and Hesiod?

have any answer to that?

what I am asking is if you are right, what was the mother language of ancient Greeks,
and why they did not use it, instead they learn a clergy language to express.
Romans took the Alphabet from Cyme to express written speech, could Greeks do the same, and learn all a clergy language?

Taranis
21-11-12, 19:43
I understand anti-European Fomenko's sentiment, but this is not a very good reason to dissmiss his entire work, especially for the fact that he has used very reliable statistical methods.

You're missing my point entirely there: the underlying common assumption (by Illig, by Fomenko, and by you, since you claimed the same) is that "official" history was tampered with by a conspiracy. This assumption is highly Eurocentric because it sees the conspiracy originating in the West. As it happens, the historiography of non-western sources agrees with that of the "official" western history: for example, what incentive would Persian and Arab scholars have - centuries before the Renaissance - to write treatise on the classical Greek philosophers if the works of exactly those philosophers are the product of a forgery of the Renaissance? What incentive would the Mauryans in India to translate their texts into Greek - centuries before the emergence of Christianity - if this was a "Church language", and if Alexander the Great never spoke Greek, as you asserted earlier in this thread? If you move the magnitude of your 'conspiracy' to a level where it clearly spans multiple centuries and transcends the boundaries of religions and entire civilizations thousands of kilometers apart, the probability that your "theory" is complete nonsense, and that "official" history in turn actually turns out o be quite accurate, approaches 100%.

The fact that Fomenko has such a flowery anti-western sentiment in his "revised" history is a mere foot note in this discussion.

Zeus10
21-11-12, 19:52
That is the Point,
Greek that time was just English today,
a global language, spoken by Greeks and non Greeks,
if I study today English literature am I british? No,
But answer me, How English is so expand today world wide? is it a church language?
answer is no, but due to colonisation, merchants, alphabet and written speech etc,
so how come Greek was so wide that time?
did church (which God?) force them to Learn Greek?
I am Greek, I also speak some English
did today Church force me to learn English?

the biggest nation today are Chinese, but world's most wide spoken language is English.
DO PEOPLE LEARN ENGLISH TODAY CAUSE OF RELIGION TO AGGLOSAXONIC CHURCH?

There is a huge difference betwen the usage of "Greek" in the past and English today. English came in usage through invasion and colonisation of many countries and places and especially it started its appearance after the creation of the English state-nation, which can not be applied for the antiquity. "Greeks" whatever it meant in the past, not only never invaded someone, but they were the invaded ones, EXCACTLY by these Romans, to that extend that they fade out from the scene of the history thereafter, if they ever existed on the first place as a 'ethne' in the way we determine a "ethne" today..


and a final question,
ok if Greek was a religious language, what language Myceneans spoke?
and what was the 'mother' language Homer and Hesiod?

have any answer to that?

I have no answer about this. If you are "refering" to Ventris ""decipherement"" of Linear B, I have full confidence he was wrong, or at least his conclusion was far-fetched, but if I had to give an "educated guess", I would say they were a culture similar to Asian one, based on archeological findings in that area.

Zeus10
21-11-12, 20:38
You're missing my point entirely there: the underlying common assumption (by Illig, by Fomenko, and by you, since you claimed the same) is that "official" history was tampered with by a conspiracy. This assumption is highly Eurocentric because it sees the conspiracy originating in the West. As it happens, the historiography of non-western sources agrees with that of the "official" western history: for example, what incentive would Persian and Arab scholars have - centuries before the Renaissance - to write treatise on the classical Greek philosophers if the works of exactly those philosophers are the product of a forgery of the Renaissance? What incentive would the Mauryans in India to translate their texts into Greek - centuries before the emergence of Christianity - if this was a "Church language", and if Alexander the Great never spoke Greek, as you asserted earlier in this thread? If you move the magnitude of your 'conspiracy' to a level where it clearly spans multiple centuries and transcends the boundaries of religions and entire civilizations thousands of kilometers apart, the probability that your "theory" is complete nonsense, and that "official" history in turn actually turns out o be quite accurate, approaches 100%.

The fact that Fomenko has such a flowery anti-western sentiment in his "revised" history is a mere foot note in this discussion.

First, I want to remind you that I don't entirely dissmis the events on themselves, but the time they are "recorded" they occured.
Secondly, I opposse the mainstream perception, which look at the Ancient Cultures, like Greeks or Romans as we do today for the nation-states.
Thirdly, I would like to see few examples from the non-western sources, where they back-up the conventional western 'stories' of the antiquity, especially in regards how do they determine the excact time these "events" really occured.

Yetos
22-11-12, 00:36
There is a huge difference betwen the usage of "Greek" in the past and English today. English came in usage through invasion and colonisation of many countries and places and especially it started its appearance after the creation of the English state-nation, which can not be applied for the antiquity. "Greeks" whatever it meant in the past, not only never invaded someone, but they were the invaded ones, EXCACTLY by these Romans, to that extend that they fade out from the scene of the history thereafter, if they ever existed on the first place as a 'ethne' in the way we determine a "ethne" today..



I have no answer about this. If you are "refering" to Ventris ""decipherement"" of Linear B, I have full confidence he was wrong, or at least his conclusion was far-fetched, but if I had to give an "educated guess", I would say they were a culture similar to Asian one, based on archeological findings in that area.



SO that means that deny Troyan war, Greek colonisation 1, Greek colonisation 2, Persian wars, Alexander and Pyrros?
I guess Myceneans invaded Myceane from Troy, Emporium in Spain was Built by Asians as also Phasis in caucas, and Alexander was a Persian who invated Makedonia, and Pyrros was a Roman who lost his army in effort to conquer Greece, right?

is that you are telling me?

Question to explain us more and develop your 'theory'
1.
Ομαιμον ομογλωττον ομοθρησκον κανων kanon was written by who?
2. ok ancient Greeks never existed, DO MODERN GREEKS EXIST AS AN ETHNOS WITHE TODAY DETERMINATION?

I think you just spamming something in purpose with no Idea how it was, you deny but you have nothing to show us instead, deny for deny, I wonder why?
I gave you a step to explain your theory and tell us nothing,
no proves, no opponent side, nothing just spam of your deny,

If you have something to tell us ok,
if your purpose is to deny they why you mixed in aforum like that, to tell us that we are the idiots and your deny is like Divine light a Holy Ghost? but to where? explain more your theory,
what are you afraid?
ok show us the non clergy language that existed at homer's time.


so lets take a look at that you call Asian

Mycenean
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/MaskeAgamemnon.JPG

Thracian

http://images.ibox.bg/2006/11/22/15163/256x197.jpg

Do you believe that Both Thracian and Mycenean were Asians?
If yes then you just supported a theory that IE came from Anatolia much after the arsenic bronze.

do you know that Syrmia and Vatin Cultures are connected with Mycenean and Minoan?
not me archaiologists say so.


So Greeks never colonise and never expand in Asia Africa,
and Greeks spoke an Asian language is your theory,
and they learn a clergy language with out following that God (Taranis Thor Perun) so to do what?
Homer spoke an unknown Asian language learn so perfect the Greek, one the most difficult and rich in vocabulary and forms, Forced by Church and Clergy, just to write his poems? and people who spoke an Asian language kept them as save as they could, telling their children every night a story in a language that they did not understand? is that you are telling us?


Is that you are saying us?
Alexander spoke an Asian unknown language but spread Greek to India due to a clergy demand?
is that you are telling us?

and again I ask you, If ancient Greeks were not an Ethicity what where they?
to which nation were Relatives?

are modern Greeks an Ethnicity?

Ethnos ΕΘΝΟΣ is a greek word and means cousins,
ΕΔΝΟΣ = cousin
-ΙΔΗΣ = tribe-family name
Germans is Germanoi poss case Germanidon Female Germanides
EDI is the relative in Thracian

Do you understand that automatically you kick Vocedol Vatin Thracians to an Asian culture?
do you realize that automatically you speak that IE came from minor Asia to balkans?


if you know Greek-Roman wars then you understand why,
they start from South Italy and did not finish even after Mithridateian wars,
Cleopatra was Egypt's Queen but was a Greek speaker,
if you search History of sil road you will see that some Greek cities never passed under Roman control East of Parthia,
what was easier for Romans? to write Latin and in language that existed and spoken and find them an alphabet like Cyrill and Method? or to leave Greek as primary,
understand that known world spoke Greek that time as second language,
It was more easier Roman officers to learn Greek, cause from Spain to India some locals knew that language for centuries or milleniums, than to force local population learn Latin
Alaska belongs to USA but still Russian are spoken there,
in British colonies after 1948 the English speaking people are more today than were under English occupation, cause that time English was the language of the 'foreign intruder', you did not the language of the enemy, that is why Romans adopted Greek as international language,
even Islam did not manage to rip Greek language from Midle East were no Latin was Spoken, until the crusades.

Yetos
22-11-12, 01:13
sorry mistake, repeat previous post.

Yetos
22-11-12, 01:20
http://i46.tinypic.com/2e23wgk.jpg


The above is written in Rome Senator cause Greek and Latin was a Clergy, a religion language, you say to us,

No matter I want to stay serious I can't

Here is another photo at 2002 AD before 10 years which might have connections showing to you that Greek and Latin is a clergy language,

http://realfrance.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/euro_notes3.jpg

if you see each has at bottom left corner the
Latin EURO
Greek ΕΥΡΩ

I quess that was made under kindly permission, supervision and pressure of Romaiocatholic Pope of Rome, and Orthodox Patriarch of Con/polis
well seems like even today 2002 AD Greek and Latin are Clergy language, as I see in the photo of Euro-bill

I wonder if European Central Bank ask a permission from both their Holliness to use that logo.

that is written in Euro-bill to force Europeans to learn Latin ang Greek right,
as in case of Greece, they spoke Asian but they learn a clergy language, as you told us.
so after that evidence we know that the purpose of church and the words Euro and Ευρω are just to force or help people learn Latin and ancient Greek.
Yes church knows what is doing, and has a conspiracy to learn all Europeans, Ancient Greek, and Latin
it is written in the Euro-bill.
so church for 5 000 years is trying to learn Europeans Greek and Latin language,
milleniums of conspiracy, no matter church change God's, Kronos Zeus Ianus Thor Taranis Perun Astarte etc to Jesus Christ and Allah, the purpose was the same 5000 years, to teach ancient Greek to people who do not speak ancient Greek, not to teach divine laws, but to teach a language,
am I correct? Church even invade Persia and Sogdiane to teach Greek language, not Alexander but clerics.
I am :petrified:.
Beware learn Greek to save your shelves from Antichrist.
the fires of Hell awaits those who did not speak Greek.
Gods understand only Greek and Latin, so speak Greek when you pray, help God understand you.

Zeus10
22-11-12, 15:20
Yetos, I really don't like to repeat myself.
Yes, Greek started as a religious language for liturgy and religious writing needs. It was used thereafter as a language of culture, diplomacy and trade, rhetorics and oratory, administrative and civil servants. It gradualy expanded mainly through education firstly to the educated people and then to the common ones, but it never had a status of an ethnic language, before the creation of the Greek nation-state. Today being used in the everyday life, is evolving to that degree that is showing itself nowhere alike in any perspective to the so called "Attic" language, which was labeled as Ancient Greek language.

Yetos
22-11-12, 18:23
Yetos, I really don't like to repeat myself.
Yes, Greek started as a religious language for liturgy and religious writing needs. It was used thereafter as a language of culture, diplomacy and trade, rhetorics and oratory, administrative and civil servants. It gradualy expanded mainly through education firstly to the educated people and then to the common ones, but it never had a status of an ethnic language, before the creation of the Greek nation-state. Today being used in the everyday life, is evolving to that degree that is showing itself nowhere alike in any perspective to the so called "Attic" language, which was labeled as Ancient Greek language.

Zeus I am tired of bad written fairy tales,

and I say Yes to you,

http://www.oocities.org/vienna/5000/ai/pics/5euroS.jpg

Greek and latin still are clergy words,


EURO
ΕΥΡΩ


AS I SEE AGAIN ZEUS YOU TOLD US THAT GODS ARE BILINGUAL, AGAIN AND AGAIN

no more comment,

deny for deny with out a thesis is just spam.
you may deny what ever uou want, who cares,

Religions are made by people so they carry the language of the firstmakers,
YOU JUST PROVE TO YOUR SHELF THAT ONCE UPON A TIME GREEK WERE SPOKEN,

besides you said that Myceneans spoke an Asian language, and i just pass it


YES ZEUS10 MYCENEANS SPOKE AN ASIAN LANGUAGE, A LANGUAGE CALLED AS PROTO_GREEK THAT CAME FROM ASIA, A CLEAR ASIAN INDO_EUROPEAN LANGUAGE, either from steppe, either from minor Asia GEEK IS AN ASIAN LANGUAGE AS ALL IE LANGUAGES,
you just admited your shelf that Greeks spoke that language,
Clergy or not, That language was spoken all over the knpown world, due to colonisations and emporion,
the rest is for you,
don't deny your shelf one day,

for 3 days I see that you tell us nothing you just spam as a well trained propaganda agent so to have us brain wash.
the answers are given tou you,

the rest is just spam, and I will make fun of it,
haven't you something better to do, than the parriot?

PS
accept it, Albanian is also Asian language

Zeus10
22-11-12, 20:41
Zeus I am tired of bad written fairy tales,

and I say Yes to you,



Greek and latin still are clergy words,


EURO
ΕΥΡΩ


AS I SEE AGAIN ZEUS YOU TOLD US THAT GODS ARE BILINGUAL, AGAIN AND AGAIN

no more comment,


No Yetos, "Ancient" Romans were bilingual:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2i79z02.jpg

and this is so true that made Juvenal in his Satire VI (184-188, 191-196)
reiterates his indignation against Roman women who prefer the usage of Greek over Latin:


Nam quid rancidius, quam quod se non putat ulla
formosam nisi quae de Tusca Graecula facta est,
de Sulmonensi mera Cecropis? Omnia Graece,
cum sit turpe magis nostris nescire Latine....
Quotiens lasciuum interuenit illud
ζωὴ καὶ ψυχή, modo sub lodice relictis
uteris in turba .


and this was happening in the Western Rome(not the Eastern one-Constantinople) , whose catacombs are full of Greek inscriptions instead of Latin ones.



PS
accept it, Albanian is also Asian language

In the Bible was written:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word

and the word is a "track by the mouth" is "left behind" by the mouth/tongue" .

That was the reason the "Ancient" priests, named the WORD-->LOGO-S when they coined the Greek LA_NGUAGE.

http://i47.tinypic.com/b81b0o.jpg

Yetos
22-11-12, 22:14
In a previous post you told us that,




I agree to Anatoly Fomenko, who argues that the conventional chronology is fundamentally flawed. Also I agree that the events attributed to antiquity actually occurred during the Middle Ages, but I can not decide the length of time that these events really occured after. To reach a definite conclusion you must be an expert in archicecture, linguistics, archeology and historiography at the same time, which I am not, but obviously I have noticed a huge discrapency betwen conventional history and real events. One thing I know for sure, is that the history of the human race , is not the one of the "ethne-s", but that of the religion and rulers, and in this regard to talk about especially proto-Greek and proto-Latin, is senseless.



and that,

Church or trade language, diplomatic, administrative, working or intellectuals one, the so called "Greek" language, always appears as a vehicular language. It has been documented as a religious language on the very start:

http://i48.tinypic.com/312a72t.jpg

and kept the same appearance in the secular literature, widely considered "Ancient" which "misteriously" has been writen many-many centuries after, like this oldest Iliad copy, which belongs to the 10-th Century AD.

http://i46.tinypic.com/212j0o8.jpg

or like this other "ancient" text:

http://i45.tinypic.com/11t3adt.jpg


Now you tell us that,



No Yetos, "Ancient" Romans were bilingual:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2i79z02.jpg

and this is so true that made Juvenal in his Satire VI (184-188, 191-196)
reiterates his indignation against Roman women who prefer the usage of Greek over Latin:



and this was happening in the Western Rome(not the Eastern one-Constantinople) , whose catacombs are full of Greek inscriptions instead of Latin ones.




In the Bible was written:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word

and the word is a "track by the mouth" is "left behind" by the mouth/tongue" .

That was the reason the "Ancient" priests, named the WORD-->LOGO-S when they coined the Greek LA_NGUAGE.

http://i47.tinypic.com/b81b0o.jpg



YOU ALSO TOLD US THAT,





Why? Because this is all what we possess about "Ancient Texts", just Byzantine literature. As a matter of fact the PICTURE nr 2(previous post) was taken from a page from Venetus A, which represent the oldest known complete copy of Iliad that we possess:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2gy2jv4.jpg

Everything else we have about "Ancient Literature" is just small papyrus fragments like this one:

http://i50.tinypic.com/65akcw.jpg

which also date the same period of time.

These texts seem very similar in appearance and most of all in language to the Septuagint ones, like the one I brought in the PICTURE Nr-1(previous post) Esdras in the Codex Vaticanus .
or this other one:
Codex Sinaiticus, a manuscript of the Christian Bible written in the middle of the fourth century, contains the earliest complete copy of the Christian New Testament
http://i48.tinypic.com/26061ch.jpg
Now that I brought the references, I hope you stop doubting my integrity.




WHEN YOU FINALLY DECIDE WHEN GREEK WAS SPOKEN?
BEFORE 1700 or after,
WHEN YOU DECIDE WHO"S CHURCH LANGUAGE WAS GREEK

WHEN YOU DECIDE WHICH IS MORE ANCIENT THE NESTORS CUP OR THE ONES YOU SHOW US
(TO YOU THEY ARE SAME AGE SINCE FAN OF ANATOLY)

WHEN YOU TELL WHICH CHURCH IN EURO TO ALSO BE WRITTEN THE ΕΥΡΩ WORD,

UNTIL THEN YOU ARE JUST A SPAMMER WHO SPAM ........


I AM TIRED OF YOUR ILLUSION THEORIES WITH GLOBAL CONSPIRACY OF CHURCHES EVEN FROM ZEUS TIME TO TODAY CHRIST AND ALLAH.
I AM TIRED OF YOU TO TOLD THAT GREEKS NAVER INVADE AND NEVER COLONISE IN ANCIENT WORLD.

YOUR POSTS SHOW CLEAR WHAT IS YOUR INTENSION, UNDER WHOSE COMMAND YOU SPAM,

GREEKS WERE SLAUGHTER BY CHURCH IN THE CAMPS OF SCYTHOPOLIS

GREEK WERE THE VICTIMS OF CHURCH IN GREECE AND ALEXANDREIA,

CODEX THEOSIANUS AND A GREAT SAINT BASILEIOS OF CEASAREIA THEY SAID DEATH TO GREEKS,

AND NOW YOU TELL ME THAT CHURCH FORCE PEOPLE TO LEARN GREEK

TELKL US ZEUS WHY CHURCH SEND VELISARIUS TO KILL THE GREEKS IN SOUTH ITALY IF THEY DON"T BECOME CHRISTIANS

TELL US WHY JOHN OF EFFESUS IN A LETTER TO JUSTINIAN ( I THINK IN a NETHERLAND MUSEUM) SAY I MANAGE TO TURN 14 000 to the divine church but I have to kill 36 000.
IN EPHESUS, ARTEMIS OF EPHESIANS,

AND YOU TELL THAT PEOPLE LEARN GREEK FROM CHURCH?


OFCOURSE YOU ALSO DENY THAT AND KEEP SPAMMING,


DO YOU DENY THE CRUELTY OF CHURCH AGAINST GREEKS?
UNTIL 900 THEY KILL GREEK SPEAKERS AS PAGANS, AND YOU TELL ME THAT GREEK LEARN language FROM CHURCH?

in 1700 a catholic priest (abba Fourmont) came to sparta with permission of Sultan and greeds of church, and destroy the city, today we can not found Sparta cause Clergy destroy it to the ground.
And you tell me that Greek is a clergy language?

simply your posts reflect your mental existance,

once you told us that we know Greek from papyrus and then you show us stones
you never told us how old are they,
once you told us about Anatoly and deny, and in the other you tell us about catacombs as they happened in 17th century,
you tell us that Church (Polythistic, Paganist and Christian? are they the same?) learn the people Greek language, but you never heard that church killed Greek speakers.

To you as I see from your posts
maybe Nestor's cup was written by a Christian priest,
Pella katadesmos by a MONK
and Alexander the great was a Bishop.

and I say again


http://www.ecb.int/euro/banknotes/shared/img/10eurofr_HR.jpg



EURO
ΕΥΡΩ

is that also work of the church?


PS

ZEUS ARE TRYING TO TELL US HERE, THAT THE WHOLE EUROPEAN UNION IS UNDER CHURCH SUPERVISION?
WHICH CHURCH?

ARE TELLING THAT ANCIENT WORLD WAS SO STUPID THAT LEARN LANGUAGE FROM CHURCH?
ARE YOU TELLING US HERE THAT LATIN LANGUAGES AND GREEK LANGUAGES SPEAKERS ARE SO STUPID THAT LEARN LANGUAGE FROM A CHURCH, (YOU NEVER SAID WHO'S CHURCH?)

it is like telling us that from Portugal to Syria and from Egypt to Crimaia world learn a language from church? no wars happened, no colonisation, no naval battles, no invasions, no devastations.
Then tell me which church is that so I can go to learn more,
Maybe next time you tell us that ancient people stand at 4, and clergy learn to walk with 2 feet. :innocent:


PS 2

'ΜΕ ΤΗΝ ΒΟΗΘΕΙΑ ΤΟΥ ΘΕΟΥ ΔΕΝ ΕΙΜΕΘΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ'
'WITH THE HELP OF GOD WE ARE NOT GREEKS'
THAT WAS SAID BY A FAMOUS SAINT IN HIS BOOK ΔΙΔΑΧΑΙ Γ' Saint KOSMAS AETOLIAN.

WHEN YPSILANTIS SAID NO WE ARE GREEKS at 1821, CHURCH PUNISH HIM.

AND YOU TELL ME THAT CHURCH learn Greek language to Greeks?
Church told the people you are not Greeks
and you tell me that GreeK 'is made in' church.

Francisus
07-03-13, 03:23
My american friends would tell me that if you join a fraternity in the U.S. you need to learn how to recite the greek alphabet while holding a match upside down. A lotta burnt fingers im presuming.

8mike
09-03-13, 12:28
Zeus don't forget about germanic *tungo, Old Latin dingua, Oscan fancua which are all cognates to "lingua". Also our "gjuhe" is clearly a cognate to γλώσσα (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1#Greek) since Arbereshe still pronounce it "gluha"