View Full Version : Concerning the article with red hair,@who wrote it

25-09-12, 13:17
Well according to some book with populations of Europe,red hair was very present in old montenegrins,were almost 50% of the males had red hair beards.Montenegrins were living at mountains,were sun exposure is less.I think also in Romania in Balkans there is a good percentage of males having red threads of hair or reddish nuance in their beards.
Sorry the original theapricity is down now from lack of funding but I found that book here also:
(I highly dislike the place from where the Coon,Races of Europe is found,but that is the only place on inet where I could get it.I do not recommend the rest of the content from that site.)
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity. "
From history is known that celts were also present on current day teritory of Romania and in Balkans,now is possible that some group of celts moved to mountains of Montenegro and gave a lot of genetics from current day montenegrins?
Is a very weird thing,that in Balkans folklore dragons are seen as positive creatures and this could be a link to celtic folklore in which the dragon is also a positive creature.
Besides,the folk costumes in Montenegro and folk dances are different from Serbia and are weird,to me they resemble some celtic influence.

I am talking about this article:

25-09-12, 14:17
OK I think it's a COON's extract -
I said that to Maciamo (citing Albania, too) - but don't confuse RED HAIR and AUBURN HAIR even if they have genetic connexion (but not the same penetrance and homozygotic result) - if you take populations having auburn hues on hairs and red beards you 'll find a very lot among again Irish, British and some continental populations from Brittany to germanic Scandinavia, via Switzerland etc...
COON was exagerating a little about Slavs: the Western ones have some red hairs (1,2 to 1,5%) in Czechoslovakia and W-Poland, + "magyaric" Hungarians... some red hairs too in ancient times among people of eastern side of Carpathians, in W-Ukraina... True Baltics have less, as E-Ukrainian and genuine Russians - just to feed the chatting

25-09-12, 15:59
Well if you have auburn hair or red beard that does not mean you have red hair gene?
I do not understand exactly how are the things with red hair gene,because there is written:
"The most common is eumelanin, a brown-black polymer responsible for dark hair and skin, and the tanning of light skin. Pheomelanin has a pink to red hue and is present in lips, nipples, and genitals. The mutations in the MC1R gene imparts the hair and skin more pheomelanin than eumelanin, causing both red hair and freckles."
So from what I understand everyone is carrying pheomelanin.But having red hair gene means that you need to have more pheomelanin than eumelanin?
Cause I see you can be tested for these mutations:
So if you have one of these mutations that means you have red hair gene?
Add this,udmurts who are one of the highest red haired frequency people in the world are fino-ugrians:
Does they have any link with celts ?
I doubt.

25-09-12, 18:23
Ok add this,udmurts which are fino-ugrian people have one of the highest frequencies of red hair in the world:
Does they have links with celts?
I doubt.

26-09-12, 21:29
I don't know if this will satisfy you; I try:
1- Everybody has maybe some litlle bit of pheomelanin, but only red or reddish persons have a big quantity of it, relative (red blonds) or absolute (dark reds) – I red that women (at least among 'caucasoids' and 'mongoloids') have as a mean a little bit more pheomelanin than boys -

2- Yes, 'auburn' is a partially 'red', but surely doesn't have TWO recessive alleles codifying red colour (excess of pheomelanin) – more than a mutation can affect the principal allele concerned by pheomelanin production and some of them produce only a partial rufosity or only sometimes (low penetrance) – so different ethnies can show numerous or not numerous red hairs, caused by the same mutation or by different mutations...
3- Neither me nor Maciamo nor … ? said that red hairs was an unique and complete condition to be a Celt or Celt descendant ! I mentioned only that Celts descendants showed a lot of them (in fact, they are rare, but not so rare among them compared to other populations), and did not say at what stage of their history they acquired this peculiarity, partially shared with others, I only did some bets about the rufosity presence in Eastern Europe at some stage of History...
4- The interaction of mutated alleles producing rufosity (and other traits, as metabolic ones shared partly with albinism) with 'normal' same loci alleles = heterozygoty combination + other mutated/non mutated alleles on other loci produces different 'look' results according to prenetrance, monozygotic or bizygotic presence of mutated alleles (relative density pheomelanin/eumelanin), different absolute density of eumelanin (other loci)… I recall that the survey I red (D.L. Duffy 2003, upon Australians) did not mention partially or total rufosity but only a yes-or-no presence of rufosity that shows the limits of surveys of that sort trying to link genotype and phenotype result -
when doing %s of distribution I tried to divide external 'rufosity' looks in 8 fractions, from 1/8 to 8/8 – it is « potting » or « bricolage » job, not too scientific but when trying to make %s it is difficult to go deeper – and it allow somebody to do less mistakes than when comparing only the true « red » or « orange » 100% haired people to the others – but yet it is complicated so I retain only from 4/8 to 8/8 even if the margins are uncertain. What is sure is that giving 'points' from 0 to 8 (-/8) would have been very funny when making percentages among thousends of people at the time of ancient anthropology – all that explains why the traditional old surveys about red pigmentation seamed contradictory sometimes : in general a 1 to 2 folds difference: not the same scales (I guess a « 6/8 to 8/8 » panel only... I suppose 'auburn' hues would be something like 2/8 red (what is 'auburn' ? language limits) - I never red there was already something as the 'skin reflectance' ware to do these classifications more serious. Sorry – in short : 'red hairs' evaluation will be a proxi -
5- head hair rufosity is commonly studied, nor so body hair and beard hair – when you take in account every kind of partial erythrism and body/beard erythrism, you reach far higher scores for rufosity – but again, the %s found with more open criteria would be far higher for the all places but the rank of these countries and regions within them would be the same. In Scotland (the 2° « red land » after Ireland, as a whole, and not the 1° as commonly said and written) for a range from « 4/8 to 8/8 » types I found 6,5% of head 'red' hairs :
freckling is dominant (and under light control of light eyes different loci alleles too, apparently) and as a whole seams more frequent than 'red' alleles presence even if linked to it too – Western Ireland : 60% freckling, compared to about 40% of 'red' genes bearers – here again the rank within countries and regions would be the same as for hair colour, I bet -