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View Full Version : The rise of PIEs in the steppes --- From the Ural or from the from the Caucasus?



bertrand
04-10-12, 17:00
In this post I wish to react to the excellent article of Maciamo on the origin of red haired people. I agree with everything that he wrote except on one point: the origin of R1b (and R1a).

Maciamo favors “The theory of middle east origin (a point which very few population geneticists disagree) followed by a migration to the north Caucasus and Pontic Steppe).”

My opinion is that R1a and R1b came much more likely from the Ural Mountains than from the Caucasus. Several hints guide me to this conclusion:


Ancestor/cousin clades of R1a and R1b: R1, R2, M73 show very clearly a pattern of migration starting in Pakistan and moving up north to the Urals (probably at the end of the ice age). The study of Myres et Al shows clearly that M73 is today present mostly in Pakistan and in the Urals. (google map: M73 marker)




The linguist David Anthony who studied the origin of IE languages clearly established in his book the “Wheel, the Horse and language” that the similarities between PIE and Uralic languages were greater than with the languages of the Caucasus. Similarities between PIE languages and semitic languages were on the other hand very few. Therefore ancient ties between semites and IEs are unlikely.




Around 8000BC there was a water stream between the Caspian and the Black see, due to the melting ice. Both seas were much wider than currently. Communication between the Steppes and the Caucausus was greatly hampered. On the other hand, Anthony shows clearly cultural migrations down the Volga.




Everyone agrees on the reverse migration of R1a toward the Urals and from there, down to Iran and India. If there was a clear flux of migrations across the Caucasus, the R1a people would have migrated directly across semitic land, the direct route. It much more likely that the exchanges and ties between the steppes and the middle east across the Caucasus were very few. On the other hand, the route up the Volga was natural for them since they had taken that route several times before. (Tarim mummies)




Turkey: I believe the fact that many R1bs were found in Turkey is a misleading factor. Anthony shows that the Anatolian R1bs migrated from the lower Danube around 4000BC. But their cultural heritage linked them very clearly back to the Steppes.

dodona
04-10-12, 18:34
My opinion is that R1a and R1b came much more likely from the Ural Mountains than from the Caucasus. the region east to the Volga for a long time was a waste land. Later, some Yamna tribes settled in the south-east Ural regions. It peaks during Arkhaim/Sintasta days. However the whole region became almost depopulated by the Andronovo migration to the south-east. It became populated later by some northern tribes (probably Uralians) and even more later by the migration of Iranians who left the south by 'political changes' there. Somewhat later these Iranian immigrants left the mentioned region together with some 'natives' either to the west or most to the south-east again. The Ural Mountains wasn't the IE origins, as well as the Caucasus wasn't. The IE originated from tribes who settled to the west of the Urals.

bertrand
04-10-12, 19:19
I agree but where did these tribes come from?
The region of Bashkortostan was not a wasteland. As a matter of fact the caves of Shulgan Tash and others in the region was a thriving center of human occupation after the ice age, around 10 000 BC.

Later, these men moved south.
The study of David Anthony shows clearly that the horse started to be domesticated before 5000 BC in the upper Volga.
Much of the evidence was later erased by the back-migration of r1a people, but the communication channels north of the Caspian have always remained open as shown by the migration of the people of the Tarim (Tarim mummies)



Showing results for bashkortostan (http://www.eupedia.com/search?q=bashkortostan&start=0&spell=1)
Search instead for bashtortostan (http://www.google.com/search?q=bashtortostan&nfpr=1&ei=9MNtUI2lIYus0AGrhIGoDw&sqi=2&start=0)

spongetaro
04-10-12, 20:03
I agree but where did these tribes come from?
The region of Bashkortostan was not a wasteland. As a matter of fact the caves of Shulgan Tash and others in the region was a thriving center of human occupation after the ice age, around 10 000 BC.

Later, these men moved south.
The study of David Anthony shows clearly that the horse started to be domesticated before 5000 BC in the upper Volga.
Much of the evidence was later erased by the back-migration of r1a people, but the communication channels north of the Caspian have always remained open as shown by the migration of the people of the Tarim (Tarim mummies)



Showing results for bashkortostan (http://www.eupedia.com/search?q=bashkortostan&start=0&spell=1)
Search instead for bashtortostan (http://www.google.com/search?q=bashtortostan&nfpr=1&ei=9MNtUI2lIYus0AGrhIGoDw&sqi=2&start=0)

If I remember well, the cultures east of the Ural mountains (Botai, Kelterminar) in present day Kazakhstan had nothing in common with the cultures of the Volga Ural region.
While the Pontic steppe and Volga steppe cultures had adopted agriculture, the Kelterminar and Botai cultures remained at the mesolithic stage long after. We still don't know to which haplogroup belonged pre IE Central Asian cultures (R1b M-73?) .

Yetos
04-10-12, 23:28
The linguist David Anthony who studied the origin of IE languages clearly established in his book the “Wheel, the Horse and language” that the similarities between PIE and Uralic languages were greater than with the languages of the Caucasus. Similarities between PIE languages and semitic languages were on the other hand very few. Therefore ancient ties between semites and IEs are unlikely.


well the work of Joseph Yehunda proves the opposite, it seems like IE are very connected with Elamitic,

the later of Leyla teppe culture archaiological findings simmilar to Maykop but older, send us to North-West as homeland of IE and surely connects them with Gedrosian,

All the linguistic methods have results like Greco-Aryan, Indo-Hettite etc which also send us to south of Caucas and not Ural mountains.






Around 8000BC there was a water stream between the Caspian and the Black see, due to the melting ice. Both seas were much wider than currently. Communication between the Steppes and the Caucausus was greatly hampered. On the other hand, Anthony shows clearly cultural migrations down the Volga.


the earliest IE theory starts at 6000 BC with G2 Hg, the Farming Anatolian Hypothsesis

the Kurgans and arsenic Bronze theory starts at about 4000 BC






Everyone agrees on the reverse migration of R1a toward the Urals and from there, down to Iran and India. If there was a clear flux of migrations across the Caucasus, the R1a people would have migrated directly across semitic land, the direct route. It much more likely that the exchanges and ties between the steppes and the middle east across the Caucasus were very few. On the other hand, the route up the Volga was natural for them since they had taken that route several times before. (Tarim mummies)

Chariots and horses how usefull are in Volga mud?
Hettits were running fast as Gods in minor Asia with chariots, could they do the same in Volga lands where the soil is near sea lvl, no rocky underground, and mud is over 9 months per year?
mud is killing Horses, makes them sick, chariots stuck in mud,
but what about Balkans and minor Asia, land is dry, and stones are everywhere,
Balkans have big diversity of R1a to be a start point of R1a, yet by the today search we consider it as a sink phenomena diversity, but is it?





Turkey: I believe the fact that many R1bs were found in Turkey is a misleading factor. Anthony shows that the Anatolian R1bs migrated from the lower Danube around 4000BC. But their cultural heritage linked them very clearly back to the Steppes.



hmmm what about the Gedrosian component in R1b's HG? and the role of J2 Hg?

Maciamo
05-10-12, 09:54
Thanks for your analysis, Bertrand.

You've raised some interesting points. But I have thought about all this in depth over the years. I am not the kind of person who leaves anything to chance.

There are three problems with an Uralic origin of R1b :

1) Haplogroup R1b is estimated to be at least 20,000 years old, while R1 would be around 25,000 years old. This time frame straddles the Last Glacial Maximum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum), when living conditions around the Urals would have been extremely difficult to say the least. I am not even sure that human remains from this period have been unearthed around the Urals. Besides, these people were nomadic hunter-gatherers, so even if they did occasionally travel to the Urals region, they probably chose to spend most of their time in warmer climates farther south, probably around modern Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan, if not further south.

2) If R1b originated in the Urals, how do you suggest that R1b-V88 ended up in the Levant and throughout most of Africa, and that the oldest subclades (notably R1b1* or P25) are found mostly in the Middle East (+ a bit in Europe), but never in Siberia ? The subclades of R1b found in Russia, Ukraine or even among the Uyghurs are all R1b1a1 (M73) or R1b1a2 (M269), or downstream of these subclades.

3) How could the Steppe cultures have acquired the whole Neolithic package (tools, pottery, agriculture, and most importantly domesticated animals like cows and sheep) if there was no migration from the Middle East to the steppes ? The Kurgan and Yamna cultures were based on stock-breeding. Horses were almost certainly domesticated (c. 4000 BCE) because these people already had the experience of herding cows and sheep. Once domesticated, horses were quickly ridden out of necessity, when it became obvious that it conferred a tremendous advantage to monitor the herds over the vat open steppes, and that it made it easier to travel long distances.



Around 8000BC there was a water stream between the Caspian and the Black see, due to the melting ice. Both seas were much wider than currently. Communication between the Steppes and the Caucausus was greatly hampered. On the other hand, Anthony shows clearly cultural migrations down the Volga.

This is exactly why I have always placed the migration of R1b from Anatolia to the North Caucasus-Pontic Steppe between 7000 and 5000 BCE. This is what is explained in my R1b history and what has been shown on the R1b migration map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b) I created in 2008. The Kurgan culture actually starts from 7000 BCE. I don't think it is a coincidence. This corresponds to the arrival of R1b in the steppes, with Neolithic technologies and domesticated animals from the Middle East.


The linguist David Anthony who studied the origin of IE languages clearly established in his book the “Wheel, the Horse and language” that the similarities between PIE and Uralic languages were greater than with the languages of the Caucasus. Similarities between PIE languages and semitic languages were on the other hand very few. Therefore ancient ties between semites and IEs are unlikely.

This is only natural since PIE languages emerged in the Pontic Steppe, not in Anatolia. Whatever language the original Middle-Eastern R1b spoke, it evolved quickly after they migrated north of the Caucasus, probably because of the contact with the indigenous R1a people. In fact, the Proto-Indo-European language is estimated to have arisen only in 3700 BCE, over 3000 years after the start of the Kurgan culture (the presumed arrival of R1b in the steppes). Their closest neighbours were Uralic people, who were partly overrun by the Indo-European expansion, and have lived side-by-side to IE speakers for the last 5,500 years. It's hardly surprising that there should have been borrowings (in both directions) between these language groups.

The Caucasus on the other hand has always been extremely secluded, which explains why so many minor languages have survived undisturbed for millennia.

Note Fournet and Bomhard identified striking similarities (http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2011/02/common-ancestor-of-indo-european-and.html) between the roots of Proto-Indo-European and Hurrian, the ancient language of northern Mesopotamia. This, I believe, is further evidence that R1b originated in eastern Anatolia. However it would be wrong to assume that R1b people were the only source of PIE. I have long insisted that PIE was born from the merger of the native R1b and R1a languages. That is the only solid explanation as to why both R1a and R1b were responsible for the spread of IE languages.

I also want to make it clear that the Kurgan and Yamna people were nomadic pastoralists living in small tribes. So, although this 'confederacy' of tribes lived side-by-side, traded together, intermarried, and spoke a common language (or more likely similar dialects), they didn't form a unified society. I imagine that the R1b tribes must have lived in the south, closer to the Black Sea, as they migrated to the Balkans and went up the Danube, which only fits the time frame of R1b migration. The R1a tribes lived separately in the north and east, and expanded to the Baltic and Central Asia. A few R1b tribes might have ended up in Siberia and Central Asia too, explaining the occasional appearance of a few R1b among the R1a populations (this is the case virtually everywhere, in Tukmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, India and even Nepal).



Turkey: I believe the fact that many R1bs were found in Turkey is a misleading factor. Anthony shows that the Anatolian R1bs migrated from the lower Danube around 4000BC. But their cultural heritage linked them very clearly back to the Steppes.

If you can understand that (unlike Dienekes, Davidski, and quite a few "professional" population geneticists like Balaresque, King, Adams et al. (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285), who still think that R1b and PIE spread with agriculture directly from Anatolia), I think you can understand the rest of my reasoning.

Goga
05-10-12, 12:16
My opinion is that R1a and R1b came much more likely from the Ural Mountains than from the Caucasus. Several hints guide me to this conclusion:


Everyone agrees on the reverse migration of R1a toward the Urals and from there, down to Iran and India. If there was a clear flux of migrations across the Caucasus, the R1a people would have migrated directly across semitic land, the direct route. It much more likely that the exchanges and ties between the steppes and the middle east across the Caucasus were very few. On the other hand, the route up the Volga was natural for them since they had taken that route several times before. (Tarim mummies)


There was no back migration of hg. R1a into Central Asia. There's a difference between the East European R1a and R1a native to Central Asian.

Goga
05-10-12, 12:21
"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."


from: Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288

ElHorsto
05-10-12, 14:09
If I remember well, the cultures east of the Ural mountains (Botai, Kelterminar) in present day Kazakhstan had nothing in common with the cultures of the Volga Ural region.

Interestingly, Wikipedia cites two old articles from 2004 and 2005 which claim that the Kelteminar people were belonging to both, Finno-ugric peoples and the Pit-Comb Ware culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture). The Pit-Comb core area overlapped with the northern Volga-Ural area, and today there are living Udmurts, Moksha, Erzya and turcic Tatars and Bashkirs. It is not so far from the Aral sea anymore.

bertrand
05-10-12, 16:26
1) Haplogroup R1b is estimated to be at least 20,000 years old, while R1 would be around 25,000 years old. This time frame straddles the Last Glacial Maximum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum), when living conditions around the Urals would have been extremely difficult to say the least. I am not even sure that human remains from this period have been unearthed around the Urals. .

Maciamo, as i have argued in my article on the topic (in French at bertrandjost.com/Francais/Monog-famille/Jost/Steppes/conquete-steppes.html (http://bertrandjost.com/Francais/Monog-famille/Jost/Steppes/conquete-steppes.html)) the ancestors of the R1b and R1a emigrated to the Ural from northern Pakistan AFTER the end of the ice age. They followed the retreating ice to the Urals around the Caspian.
If you study the distribution of R1, R2 and the Marker M73, you will see that they originate in Northern Pakistan and M73 (sister clade of M269) clearly shows a pattern of migration from Pakistan to the Urals.





2) If R1b originated in the Urals, how do you suggest that R1b-V88 ended up in the Levant and throughout most of Africa, and that the oldest subclades (notably R1b1* or P25) are found mostly in the Middle East (+ a bit in Europe), but never in Siberia ? The subclades of R1b found in Russia, Ukraine or even among the Uyghurs are all R1b1a1 (M73) or R1b1a2 (M269), or downstream of these subclades.


As I said R1, R1b and R1a probably originated in Northern Pakistan. The majority went up north toward the Urals while a minority went toward Iran, and Africa. But this minority is not the ancestors of European R1bs.






3) How could the Steppe cultures have acquired the whole Neolithic package (tools, pottery, agriculture, and most importantly domesticated animals like cows and sheep) if there was no migration from the Middle East to the steppes ? The Kurgan and Yamna cultures were based on stock-breeding. Horses were almost certainly domesticated (c. 4000 BCE) because these people already had the experience of herding cows and sheep. Once domesticated, horses were quickly ridden out of necessity, when it became obvious that it conferred a tremendous advantage to monitor the herds over the vat open steppes, and that it made it easier to travel long distances.


As Anthony clearly shows, the Neolitic package was acquired from the Tell settlements of eastern Europe, NOT from the middle east. The Farming technology spread from Anatolia, to Eastern Europe and then only to the Steppes. the PIE culture arised in the Steppes once the neolitic package reached them from Europe. But what made them more efficient eventually was their domestication of the Horse which was a native animal of the Steppes and the mutation that made their adults tolerent to milk.


Again there are two phases: the arrival of indigenous people of the steppes (long before 5000BC) and the rise of the PIE culture around 4500BC due to the assimilation and transformation of the neolitic package.






Note Fournet and Bomhard identified striking similarities (http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2011/02/common-ancestor-of-indo-european-and.html) between the roots of Proto-Indo-European and Hurrian, the ancient language of northern Mesopotamia. This, I believe, is further evidence that R1b originated in eastern Anatolia. However it would be wrong to assume that R1b people were the only source of PIE.


IEs spread in Anatolia after 4000BC from the Steppes. Hittites, Urrians might be descendants of this emigration wave, but i do not think that they are ancestors of the PIEs of the Steppes.





I also want to make it clear that the Kurgan and Yamna people were nomadic pastoralists living in small tribes. So, although this 'confederacy' of tribes lived side-by-side, traded together, intermarried, and spoke a common language (or more likely similar dialects), they didn't form a unified society. I imagine that the R1b tribes must have lived in the south, closer to the Black Sea, as they migrated to the Balkans and went up the Danube, which only fits the time frame of R1b migration. The R1a tribes lived separately in the north and east, and expanded to the Baltic and Central Asia. A few R1b tribes might have ended up in Siberia and Central Asia too, explaining the occasional appearance of a few R1b among the R1a populations (this is the case virtually everywhere, in Tukmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, India and even Nepal)."


I think the genetic makeout of Bashkortostan where many M73 are found (sister clade of M269) are a sign of something more than simply "a few R1bs" moving north.

Goga
01-01-13, 19:40
Also the latest DNA Tribes article suggests that PROTO-Indo-European came from West Asia (Anatolia/South Caucasus) and settled down in the Balkan Peninsula and from there on they spread Indo-European languages (or dialects at that point of time) to other parts of Europe.

"This suggests that the Anatolia-South Caucasus components might (in part) reflect genetic traces of Indo-European expansions since the Neolithic period. These expansions might have involved the mixed Neolithic buffer societies that expanded and dispersed from the Balkan Peninsula, who would have carried their Neolithic technologies and Indo-European languages into other parts of Europe."

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf?utm_source=Campaigner&utm_campaign=Sunday_December_30_2012_-_1&campaigner=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8641/indoeuropeans.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2500/indoeuropeans2.jpg

Happy 2013!

Goga
01-01-13, 19:59
The steppes model is outdated and pretty much dead because of the rise of the modern DNA technologies and computers.

ElHorsto
03-01-13, 02:25
http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf?utm_source=Campaigner&utm_campaign=Sunday_December_30_2012_-_1&campaigner=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail


This article is worth an own thread. It provides many exciting new confirmations and conflicts with our earlier discussions about admixtures.

ElHorsto
03-01-13, 14:59
The steppes model is outdated and pretty much dead because of the rise of the modern DNA technologies and computers.

I don't get why they call the supposed IE-component "Anatolia-South Caucasus" when it peaks in Poland, Scandinavia, Scythians, Belgium while it is almost minimal in Greece and Sicily (low score of Finland is a surprise though). Even Uralics have similar scores. They even claim in the text that it is a mixed component. The neolithic expansion is possible of course, but not more than it was already before. The Anatolia-South Caucasus Component actually fits well to our known Northern European Component, just with the new exception of Finnic (31% only).
Actually it pretty much supports the steppe theory, which also assumes a very early origin in the Near East (R1b). It just says that the neolithic proto-IE mixed buffer population formed in the steppes instead of the balkans. I don't get why the peaks in Poland, Scythians, Norse and Germanic suggest a neolithic expansion to europe (neolithic for the european steppes only maybe yes).

The isolated composition of Albanians within the Balkan population and their possible ties with Ireland or Egypt and Balochistan is actually a much bigger surprise.

Taranis
03-01-13, 15:29
The steppes model is outdated and pretty much dead because of the rise of the modern DNA technologies and computers.

Computers are useful tools, but they don't replace thinking (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/wheel-vocabulary-puts-a-spoke-in-bouckaert-et-al-s-wheel). :wink:

My main objection to the Anatolian / Neolithic model, from the genetic perspective, is that we now know that substantial demographic changes occured in Europe during the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age - I don't see how IE could have been preserved despite such an influx of newcomers.

Also, you would have to assume that the people of Treilles, Derenburg as well as Ötzi would have all been speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

Yetos
03-01-13, 16:25
I don't get why they call the supposed IE-component "Anatolia-South Caucasus" when it peaks in Poland, Scandinavia, Scythians, Belgium while it is almost minimal in Greece and Sicily (low score of Finland is a surprise though). Even Uralics have similar scores. They even claim in the text that it is a mixed component. The neolithic expansion is possible of course, but not more than it was already before. The Anatolia-South Caucasus Component actually fits well to our known Northern European Component, just with the new exception of Finnic (31% only).
Actually it pretty much supports the steppe theory, which also assumes a very early origin in the Near East (R1b). It just says that the neolithic proto-IE mixed buffer population formed in the steppes instead of the balkans. I don't get why the peaks in Poland, Scythians, Norse and Germanic suggest a neolithic expansion to europe (neolithic for the european steppes only maybe yes).

The isolated composition of Albanians within the Balkan population and their possible ties with Ireland or Egypt and Balochistan is actually a much bigger surprise.

Search the Varna Necropolis to understand how many oxymoron produce,
both theories have missing links today,

for example Gibutas theory is oudated and droped, Steppe people did not have or build kurgans,
the anatolia theory as clear neolithic farmic also drops, cause of vocabulary that is common after the discovery of metals, (it was expressed and analyzed by Taranis in another post)

genetics still need more samples to me, alone they can not explain language, must be in combo,
for example the combo arsenic bronze + R1 is a good candidate for IE language expand explanation,
but what about gold mettalurgy? and burial customs, can not combine.
the key to IE is Summerian and Akkadian and Altai languages,
Summerian has connection with Altai as Nostradic, but also has connection with Akkadian as Ur-Urartian.

just look why R1b Basques are not IE
why R1a Turks are not IE,
and why J1a Nakhs are not IE,
the case of Finnland is a strong arque that IE last frontier might be Baltic, and not so early as Urnfield,

to make a theory strong must have many strong arguement and less oponent arguements,
both theories are collapsed,
meaning that we must search for possible alternative or other waves to create combo that can can stand,

Tocharians culture is not steppe culture, it is also minor-Asian middle East culture.
Steppe people did not had kurgans cause if they had, we would see them from steppe to India, which we do not.

Yetos
03-01-13, 16:44
Computers are useful tools, but they don't replace thinking (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/wheel-vocabulary-puts-a-spoke-in-bouckaert-et-al-s-wheel). :wink:

My main objection to the Anatolian / Neolithic model, from the genetic perspective, is that we now know that substantial demographic changes occured in Europe during the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age - I don't see how IE could have been preserved despite such an influx of newcomers.

Also, you would have to assume that the people of Treilles, Derenburg as well as Ötzi would have all been speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

the case of Otzi been IE speaker is limited, but although possible,
the problem with Anatolian-farming theory is the commonality about war machines, weapons, etc,
if these words were spread by producers, means they spread fast.
although we may have a common borrowing, like the word 'computer' today,
all languages have a word to describe computer, but there are people that did know how it is in their language,

on the other hand, how you explained the balkanic Varna necropolis burial custom and gold mettalurgy?
how from Balkans went to Steppe gold mettalurgy? by invasion?
reject the sink phenomena in balkans, and you have another theory of R1a homeland and spread of IE,

the point is that the most ancient connection with IE is Summerian,
but does not provide solution cause its combined with both Altai and Akkadian languages,
in these cases only αφαιρετικες θεωριες, (reject or minus one's data and rebuild until a stable ) can help in a possble sollution
except if Varna Necropolis reveals its secrets,
and again we might have a language of cross roads,
a neolithic IE and a warriors-sachs class language that mix,

Goga
03-01-13, 17:43
Computers are useful tools, but they don't replace thinking (http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/wheel-vocabulary-puts-a-spoke-in-bouckaert-et-al-s-wheel). :wink:

My main objection to the Anatolian / Neolithic model, from the genetic perspective, is that we now know that substantial demographic changes occured in Europe during the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age - I don't see how IE could have been preserved despite such an influx of newcomers.

Also, you would have to assume that the people of Treilles, Derenburg as well as Ötzi would have all been speakers of Proto-Indo-European.No, you don't understand. According to this article there were different waves from the Middle East. At least one (Semitic-Hamitic) wave came from the Levant and other from South Caucasus. The Levant and the Arabian peninsula was and is the homeland of Semitic nations, from Jews to Assyrians & Arabs. While South Caucasus region was never urheimat of the Semites (, Semites were the invaders there).

It's also possible that PROTO-Indo-European dialect was born in the Balkans and that it's was a hybrid language between languages from West Asia and Balkan Peninsula.

Goga
03-01-13, 17:48
although we may have a common borrowing, like the word 'computer' today,
all languages have a word to describe computer, but there are people that did know how it is in their language
Kurgan theory doesn't make any sense. To much anachronic and chronologic mistakes and ploteholes that it's look like a fantasy fairtale or a bad sciense-fiction story. It's a product of the last 20th century.

Also the word 'computer' existed many centuries before computer was ever invented!

nordicwarrior
03-01-13, 18:01
Would the shift from Kurgan Theory (Russian Steppes) to Anatolia have anything to do with the discovery Gobekli Tepe? I've been drawn to Gobekli Tepe for some time now, and knew immediately it was a game changer. It predates the Neolithic Revolution and has aspects that could go back to Mesolithic. I've been waiting for the establishment gears to re-orient to GT (And I've been expecting Spencer Wells to claim Anatolia as R's new launching site--just kidding. Kind of.)

Only 15% of the site has been uncovered so far. Photos don't do justice to how large the area is--if you have a chance watch a video to get a better idea of scale.

And I have the builders of Gobekli Tepe as I and J. Total gut feeling, but a strong one.

kamani
03-01-13, 18:01
The isolated composition of Albanians within the Balkan population and their possible ties with Ireland or Egypt and Balochistan is actually a much bigger surprise.

That's no surprise at all to me. It actually supports what albanian historians have been saying all along, before dna testing came along. The link between the irish celts and the albanians is the illyrians. The ancient greeks were aware that the celts and illyrians were related tribes. In greek mythology, Keltos was the son of Polyphemos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphemos) and Galatea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_(mythology)) and the brother of Illyrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius) and Galas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galas). Another piece fits the puzzle that the celts spread to western europe through the balkans.

Goga
03-01-13, 18:14
Would the shift from Kurgan Theory (Russian Steppes) to Anatolia have anything to do with the discovery Gobekli Tepe? I've been drawn to Gobekli Tepe for some time now, and knew immediately it was a game changer. It predates the Neolithic Revolution and has aspects that could go back to Mesolithic. I've been waiting for the establishment gears to re-orient to GT (And I've been expecting Spencer Wells to claim Anatolia as R's new launching site--just kidding. Kind of.)

Only 15% of the site has been uncovered so far. Photos don't do justice to how large the area is--if you have a chance watch a video to get a better idea of scale.

And I have the builders of Gobekli Tepe as I-J. Total gut feeling, but a strong one.
No, I used to learn about the Anatolian model in Amsterdam back in the nineties when I went to college there, and that was before the Gobekli Tepe.

I do also believe that the so called Yamna (proto-Kurgan) Culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppes/Northern Caucasus was influenced by much higher cultures from West Asia via the Maikop Culture. So native R1a folks there were influenced by R1b & J2a folks from West Asia. Or R1b folks from the Balkan Peninsula.

Goga
03-01-13, 18:22
So, I'm pretty sure about the fact that the original R1b folks have something to do with the Indo-Europisation of Europe! Be it from the Balkan Peninsula, be it from South Caucasus!

nordicwarrior
03-01-13, 18:25
Goga, I'm sure the Anatolian model has been around for some time--I'm just talking about the possible shift in group think from Kurgan to Anatolian. And Gobekli Tepe was being dug out in the nineties.
But I am no expert in languages--definitely my weak spot.

nordicwarrior
03-01-13, 18:31
Agreed Goga. R1b is the definition of Indo-European in my book. But I don't think R1b built Gobekli Tepe.

ElHorsto
03-01-13, 18:46
- Basque is an obstacle in many theories
- R1a in Turcic speakers is no problem because Turcic language expanded rather late and in asia only.
- I was always sceptic about R1b being brought exclusively by west steppe peoples to europe, except the possibility of eastern steppe (Altai/Bactria).
- the Varna Necropolis question is important but I don't see any clear conclusions yet. It could have provided a trigger in connection with the huge Black-sea flooding. Most of the flooding affected Ukrainian shores though.
- Sumerian and Altai makes sense in connection to 1. the eastern steppe/Bactria branch 2. West Europe/Basques branch and 3. Genetics.
- Genetic shows consistent trails from Pakistan to the Altai in terms of R1b Y-HG, Autosomal "Gedrosia" component in DODECAD SNP analysis and now confirmed by the STR Balochi and Altai component. Note that Gedrosian has not been found yet in ancient samples of Europe.
Check the Table in the pdf page 5:
- Baloch component is present only in the Irish and Albanians (but 0% in Balkans and Greece, and near 0% everywhere else). In that paper it is considered consistent with the Celtic Iron age.
- Altai component is present almost everywhere except Greece and Sicily and almost absent too in Basques (R1b)
- BUT: Altai component has again west european local peak in the Irish (R1b). The norse Altai component is very high probably because of neighbouring finland.
- East Mediterranean STR component is close to Zero in both, Albanians and Irish. Yet It is maximal in Greece and Sicily. Even Finland has plenty.

Currently I find two hypothetical routes of R1b to Europe to be interesting:
1. directly by the Sea from the Middle East (Sumerian-Basque link? Bell-Beakers?).
2. "Celtic"/"Hallstatt" R1b coming indirectly to europe via central asia, possibly Bactria (Altai-connection). Albanians could represent a later hallstatt-offshoot to the balkans, if it appears correct that they are genetically isolated in the Balkans.
But STR should be taken with caution due to its lower number than SNP.

After all, very speculative and many gaps, but with interesting trails.


Search the Varna Necropolis to understand how many oxymoron produce,
both theories have missing links today,

for example Gibutas theory is oudated and droped, Steppe people did not have or build kurgans,
the anatolia theory as clear neolithic farmic also drops, cause of vocabulary that is common after the discovery of metals, (it was expressed and analyzed by Taranis in another post)

genetics still need more samples to me, alone they can not explain language, must be in combo,
for example the combo arsenic bronze + R1 is a good candidate for IE language expand explanation,
but what about gold mettalurgy? and burial customs, can not combine.
the key to IE is Summerian and Akkadian and Altai languages,
Summerian has connection with Altai as Nostradic, but also has connection with Akkadian as Ur-Urartian.

just look why R1b Basques are not IE
why R1a Turks are not IE,
and why J1a Nakhs are not IE,
the case of Finnland is a strong arque that IE last frontier might be Baltic, and not so early as Urnfield,

to make a theory strong must have many strong arguement and less oponent arguements,
both theories are collapsed,
meaning that we must search for possible alternative or other waves to create combo that can can stand,

Tocharians culture is not steppe culture, it is also minor-Asian middle East culture.
Steppe people did not had kurgans cause if they had, we would see them from steppe to India, which we do not.

ElHorsto
03-01-13, 18:53
That's no surprise at all to me. It actually supports what albanian historians have been saying all along, before dna testing came along. The link between the irish celts and the albanians is the illyrians. The ancient greeks were aware that the celts and illyrians were related tribes. In greek mythology, Keltos was the son of Polyphemos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphemos) and Galatea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_(mythology)) and the brother of Illyrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius) and Galas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galas). Another piece fits the puzzle that the celts spread to western europe through the balkans.

A Hallstatt-offshoot from central europe to balkans like the Scordisci is more likely, since Albanian STR composition appears isolated in Balkans (if data are correct, I'm still cautious, because the Balochi and Altai figures overall look suspiciously sharply distributed).

Goga
03-01-13, 19:12
Why?

There’s was a lot gene flow into the Balkan Peninsula from the Levant. The Balkan Peninsula is very heavy of Y-DNA hg. E nowadays. The Balkan Peninsula is not really a R1b-region.

Baloch (Gedrosia) component is also absent in Eastern Europe in Slavic R1a (Z283) heavy regions, while very high in the Iranian Peninsula and Central Asia where there's a lot of Iranic brach of R1a (Z93). But I believe that haplogroups R1b and R1a had contact with each other somewhere around the Iranian Plateau/Caspian Sea (south) since you can find both haplogroups there. Also remember that the original y-DNA hg. R1* folks came from Central Asia, right? So the ORIGINAL R1b folks must be heavy of Gedrosian aDNA component. But that Gedrosia component diluted together with West Asia component (and assimilated by the native Europeans) after many millennia in Europe.

Goga
03-01-13, 19:23
Gedrosia aDNA component in (West Indo-European) R1b folks is another indication that it must be entered Europe via West Asia and not Eastern Europe. Because there’s Gedrosia aDNA in West Asia (mostly the Iranian Plateau) and not in Eastern Europe...

zanipolo
03-01-13, 20:13
Why?

There’s was a lot gene flow into the Balkan Peninsula from the Levant. The Balkan Peninsula is very heavy of Y-DNA hg. E nowadays. The Balkan Peninsula is not really a R1b-region.

Baloch (Gedrosia) component is also absent in Eastern Europe in Slavic R1a (Z283) heavy regions, while very high in the Iranian Peninsula and Central Asia where there's a lot of Iranic brach of R1a (Z93). But I believe that haplogroups R1b and R1a had contact with each other somewhere around the Iranian Plateau/Caspian Sea (south) since you can find both haplogroups there. Also remember that the original y-DNA hg. R1* folks came from Central Asia, right? So the ORIGINAL R1b folks must be heavy of Gedrosian aDNA component. But that Gedrosia component diluted together with West Asia component (and assimilated by the native Europeans) after many millennia in Europe.

According to the same people as the article, the main STRs of Eastern Europe are the Thracians at 32%.
Herodous did state that after the indians the thracians where the most populous people.
http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-10-01.pdf


BTW, unsure who said this, but the "celtic" red haired people is said to originate here. see below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people
These people moved into europe along the danube river, to the alps, then along the rhine to the north sea.

Balochi/gedrosia is on the coast of eastern Persia ( Iran ) bordering pakistan, these people migrated via the caucasus and around the caspian sea. They then moved east and north-east into europe. Most via the volga-pontic area.

Goga
03-01-13, 20:56
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Udmurt are Turkic peoples with East Iranic influences. Are you saying that the original Celtic tribes had Turkic roots?

What have Thracians to do with ancient Indo-European dialects? At the time of the Thracians (or even Scythians), Indo-European languages (from Ancient Greek, Anatolian and Iranic) were already wide spread.

kamani
03-01-13, 21:29
In terms of the route of the celts, I am more inclined towards: Anatolia -> thracia -> illyria -> western europe. A few supporting ideas are:
- albanians have one of the highest percentages in europe of R1b-M269*, the parent version of almost all western european mutations of R1b. The same subclade is also found in bulgaria, romania, greece, anatolia and Iran.
- Anatolia was a much developed area/route in antiquity (Troy for example). People would follow the warmer shorter southern route rather than go the above the black sea route.
-in the trojan war the illyrians allied mostly with the trojans (anatolia), so for some reason they felt more affinity with them than with the cretan greeks.
-the albanians, romanians, and greeks are surrounded by slavs in the north and north-west, so the slav migrations cuttoff the connection between the western and eastern R1b.

zanipolo
03-01-13, 21:51
In terms of the route of the celts, I am more inclined towards: Anatolia -> thracia -> illyria -> western europe. A few supporting ideas are:
- albanians have one of the highest percentages in europe of R1b-M269*, the parent version of almost all western european mutations of R1b. The same subclade is also found in bulgaria, romania, greece, anatolia and Iran.
- Anatolia was a much developed area/route in antiquity (Troy for example). People would follow the warmer shorter southern route rather than go the above the black sea route.
-in the trojan war the illyrians allied mostly with the trojans (anatolia), so for some reason they felt more affinity with them than with the cretan greeks.
-the albanians, romanians, and greeks are surrounded by slavs in the north and north-west, so the slav migrations cuttoff the connection between the western and eastern R1b.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/12/trojan-pottery-across-bronzeiron-age.html

zanipolo
03-01-13, 21:53
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Udmurt are Turkic peoples with East Iranic influences. Are you saying that the original Celtic tribes had Turkic roots?

What have Thracians to do with ancient Indo-European dialects? At the time of the Thracians (or even Scythians), Indo-European languages (from Ancient Greek, Anatolian and Iranic) were already wide spread.

Udmurt markers are also found in continental celtic lands in central europe.

In regards to thracian STRs, it was already in eastern europe prior to migration and to this dat is still the dominant group for the areas in question. Migration was not that great in numbers.

Yetos
04-01-13, 00:11
Kurgan theory doesn't make any sense. To much anachronic and chronologic mistakes and ploteholes that it's look like a fantasy fairtale or a bad sciense-fiction story. It's a product of the last 20th century.

Also the word 'computer' existed many centuries before computer was ever invented!

that is what I am saying Goga,
Kurgan theory is droped, after Varna,

and the word computer in my language is mechanismos or hypologistis, but today 99% call it computer.
so the word computer become international, maybe although not testified some words from steppe entered as the word computer today in our languages, without aspirations,

Yetos
04-01-13, 00:20
Goga, I'm sure the Anatolian model has been around for some time--I'm just talking about the possible shift in group think from Kurgan to Anatolian. And Gobekli Tepe was being dug out in the nineties.
But I am no expert in languages--definitely my weak spot.

Nordic the discovery that Tocharians went from Anatolia to steppes, as also the leyla tepe as older Maykop culture gave new dimensions,
even the gedrosian component can be explained with leyla-tepe,

Varna when solved will the catalytic arque for every theory,
even the burial body position of varna is found in intermediate kngdom Egypt, changing a lot of what we know, we have Yemen and older Egyptian riyuals but same time we find the weapons with the dead and the crosshand position, and gold masks, as we see in Varna milleniums before Egypt,

Yetos
04-01-13, 00:31
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Udmurt are Turkic peoples with East Iranic influences. Are you saying that the original Celtic tribes had Turkic roots?

What have Thracians to do with ancient Indo-European dialects? At the time of the Thracians (or even Scythians), Indo-European languages (from Ancient Greek, Anatolian and Iranic) were already wide spread.

in Both Greco-Brygian and Thraco-Armenian Hypothesis Thracian belong to the same Group with Greco-Aryan and Anatolian languages as Tocharian

the other side is the Balto-Slavo-Germanic branch that Thracians may belong.

from the limited words that we know or can guess from thracian they had enough LPIE vocabulary that is connected with Anatolia, and enough with Baltic,

thracian language if we knew more is a key to solve many problems

Yetos
04-01-13, 01:03
OPAH guys

before we reconstruct theories,

I must say that FACTS we can not deny are (at least until today)

1. the arsenic bronze entrance from European steppe to Pannoni Basin
with the possible way that macciamo describe from south caucas to Steppe, and from there to Urnfield and West and south,
although another parallel road is possible (2way entrance)

2 the point of taranis that words of things that were found after neolithic agricuture should different, so words like chariot axe copper etc should be different, except if they become international through trade or cross-road langauges (wokers-farmers class, warriors class) like the word οινος wine vino etc

3 tocharians were R1a but spoke anatolian IE

4 Maykop is expand of Leyla Tepe so Kurgans is not a steppe people custom.

5 Until today the burial custom with weapons masks gold and crossed hands is founded in Varna Bulgaria.


if I forgot something forgive me and correct me.

nordicwarrior
04-01-13, 01:40
R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?

Yetos
04-01-13, 02:09
- Basque is an obstacle in many theories
- R1a in Turcic speakers is no problem because Turcic language expanded rather late and in asia only.
- I was always sceptic about R1b being brought exclusively by west steppe peoples to europe, except the possibility of eastern steppe (Altai/Bactria).
- the Varna Necropolis question is important but I don't see any clear conclusions yet. It could have provided a trigger in connection with the huge Black-sea flooding. Most of the flooding affected Ukrainian shores though.
- Sumerian and Altai makes sense in connection to 1. the eastern steppe/Bactria branch 2. West Europe/Basques branch and 3. Genetics.
- Genetic shows consistent trails from Pakistan to the Altai in terms of R1b Y-HG, Autosomal "Gedrosia" component in DODECAD SNP analysis and now confirmed by the STR Balochi and Altai component. Note that Gedrosian has not been found yet in ancient samples of Europe.
Check the Table in the pdf page 5:
- Baloch component is present only in the Irish and Albanians (but 0% in Balkans and Greece, and near 0% everywhere else). In that paper it is considered consistent with the Celtic Iron age.
- Altai component is present almost everywhere except Greece and Sicily and almost absent too in Basques (R1b)
- BUT: Altai component has again west european local peak in the Irish (R1b). The norse Altai component is very high probably because of neighbouring finland.
- East Mediterranean STR component is close to Zero in both, Albanians and Irish. Yet It is maximal in Greece and Sicily. Even Finland has plenty.

Currently I find two hypothetical routes of R1b to Europe to be interesting:
1. directly by the Sea from the Middle East (Sumerian-Basque link? Bell-Beakers?).
2. "Celtic"/"Hallstatt" R1b coming indirectly to europe via central asia, possibly Bactria (Altai-connection). Albanians could represent a later hallstatt-offshoot to the balkans, if it appears correct that they are genetically isolated in the Balkans.
But STR should be taken with caution due to its lower number than SNP.

After all, very speculative and many gaps, but with interesting trails.

wow
lets see

1- Basquez ok,

2 tocharians were R1a but went to central Asia,
so that is a problem cause gives 3 open doors behind
a) Tocharians learn IE in middle near EAST and spoke Turkic before
b) R1a went to central asia with IE and R1a homeland is Balkans
c) they came they learn or teach IE and they return (seems little bit silly)

3, Yes R1b road seem to pass from 2 ways one is above Black sea , and other to south Greece to west of Dinaric alps to central europe.
but seems 1rst road above Black sea was from Leyla teppe to Maykop (North Iran Azerbaizan Armenia Laz(possible splitto Hettit) Georgia to European steppe)

4. Varna is catalytic, cause seems to be connected with Rudna glava in Serbia, Sesklo Vinca etc

5 Summerian is strange, it can be connected with both Akkadian and Altaic,
connecting it with Altaic we have the Nostradic languages and connection of IE with Turkic
connecting it with Akkadian we have ur-urartian languages, and connection of IE with Semitic languages
but seems that LPIE share enough with both,
recently I was in touch with 5 Cypriots who work in summerian language and I was amazed
like the word Lillies (flowers) (Turkish Lalle ) the word Gal- Gaul (Big one-giant) (Slavic goliam, Biblical Goliath etc) and many others.

6 About Gennetics is strange, and I would like to know if the peaks are general spread or local
Although Albania as historical migrations has
a Celtic or para-Celtic invasion at 2000 BC with response from E Hg from central Greece, they both make Illyrians as historically said (Illyria)
yet parts that are mixed with Thracians and Messapians
the later known Phoenician Gettan-Dacian and Greek colonisation and Roman conquerors. (as Illyricum)
a possible entrance of Visigothic female population
again a Gaulish pass through Albania and return and settle and Join Flavia Legion but mainly outside Kossovo (Nis) although can be connected (Scordisci and Serdi might be of them, but they should also found in Beograd Serbia, Romania, Skanza mountains Bulgaria and Cappadokia minor Asia)
the Slavic entrance
The Cumans (Turkic people) entrance
some Normans' invasion but limited (as Arber and Alba)
Hungro-Romanian entrance (Hunjades)
Turkish entrance (major ottomanization-muslimization of Albania)
yet another strange is that Anjou that ceated Alba came from France but their homeland was considered Romania and Alba Lullia.

so I see no general isolation, especially at roman and ottoman times when Egnatia road (Con/polis-Rome) and the Axios road (bardar, from Thessaloniki to Wien and Poland) pass from Kossovo
so if we speak about local peaks well then ok, but if we speak about general peaks spread all over then I give up,
yet although we know that a naval road from Levant to Albania to West Sicily to Carhedon (Carthage) to Spain to Atlantic existed
East mediterean emporium settlements have benn found all the way to European Islands
I Give up I can't help more. except that ancient Greek place Celts or para Celts at Pannoni Basin

what surpises me is the lack of East mediterenean component since Albania has a lot of E and J2 Y-DNA,
that is like a shock,
do you have any link to that? I need data to check it.


PS

the only connection I can find with Balochi is the Persian migration to balkans of Skodra Skoudra satrapy, but still we know it historically mentioned, with little evidence, and most think in Thrace North and east of Makedonia. but in Illyria? too far.

a possible good explanation also will be if that balochi is from Jevgs and gabels reachin a peak 6-10% but that should also give 2-5% in Greece and 5-8% Bulgaria and Romania, except if these people were excluded from search as eternal devastation (Indian gypsies).
gypsies are also strong in Ireland I think.
gypsies at balkans were forced to settle at one place mainly at 20th century, and yet they deny modern way of living, so a random sample would include them but a specified search will exclude them, as non habitants of a certain village population,
Istill don't get that Ballochi.

Yetos
04-01-13, 02:26
R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?

Scythians is after Greek Σκυθες Persian skudar-skudra, means shooters mounted archers, describe by Greeks as Iranoid steppe people entering Europe at known historical times

Thracians after Greek Θρηικες means divided
alternative from ανΘραξ means coalminers or coal producers or fire people from expand from Phrygia to Balkans to Caspian sea the lands that scythians started entering West

Dacian Getae (Δακοι Γετται) name given by Greeks and Romans but can be also inner name , are sub-Thracian tribes like Triballi Odrysse Paeoni Phrygians etc mainly around Romania and north
the only explanation I found and is not certain is Getae means goats and Dacians means wolfs, biters or excavators, diggers, miners, dig rock hole habitants

for gennetics better someone else

Templar
04-01-13, 03:18
R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?

Scythians were an Iranian steppe people who inhabited the Russian steppe and parts of Central Asia, they were nomadic and some think that their domain extended as far as Mongolia which would explain Mongol use of horses in subsequent centuries. I think most agree that they were mostly R1a.

Thracians lived mostly around the area of Southern Romania and Bulgaria. I don't know much about them, but I have heard people claim that they are related closely to Illyrians. Their haplogroups were likely very varied, due to their exposed location.

Dacians lived in modern day Romania, some think that they were a subset of the Thracians. Their haplogroups I think were very diverse just like that of the Thracians.

All 3 of these groups spoke Indo-European languages. Genetically I think Scythians were overwhelmingly Indo-European, and I think both Dacians and Thracians had an Indo-European elite but most were of Near-Eastern ancestry. Some may have had haplogroup I (especially in the mountainous parts of Romania).

kamani
04-01-13, 06:48
R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?


There are theories that Scythia (Ukraine) was were the slavic R1a was concentrated before it spread in europe. Although people are saying here that R1b also went through Scythia, so first it might have been R1b then R1a came and displaced it west sometime in the Bronze age or later. Tribes from there have always been nomadic and opportunistically predatory, since the land is a steppe and it is hard to defend a permanent fortification.

Thracians (and Dacians) supposedly had red hair and were the bronze-age R1b invaders of the area, forming an elite over the neolithic indigenous populations, who were probably a mix of E-V13, J2, G, and I. They are related with Illyrians and possibly celts, since the tribes in the west balkan are usually classified as Celto-Illyrian, and tribes in the east balkan as Thraco-Illyrian. Then "very recently" around 400 BC some of them got tired of tribal lifestyle and formed the ancient Macedonian state, which took over part of greece and Illyria and borrowed the greek alphabet (being shepherd tribes they had no alphabet of their own and little use for writing).
Then Alexander the Great became king and took over all the great known empires from persia to india.
Then the romans came along and threw everybody into oblivion.
Then in the middle ages after the hun and the slav invasion, most thracians were dead. Genetically you might find mixed descendants mostly in romania, northern greece, and albania.

Yetos
04-01-13, 11:09
sory bad handling

ElHorsto
04-01-13, 14:12
Thank you Yetos for the big answer, I didn't expect prompt explanations for all of my speculations. A lot of deatils to digest.

Just briefly about the DNAtribes paper:

I made a mistake by mentioning a R1b trail to Altai, which is of course not real as Tocharians were R1a. But Bashkortostan has much R1b and the Altai STR component is still very strong west of Altai in North Europe and Uralics. So it is not so nicely consistent as I initially mentioned, but still very important I think.

The lack of East Med component in Albanians is indeed so strange that I think that STR are not reliable admixture markers or very low in numbers and show some properties of Y-HGs. But I'm no expert and might stand corrected. I'd bet that by overall SNP Albanians would be almost indistinguishable from other Balkan populations. Here is the paper from Dnatribes:

www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf?utm_source=Campaigner&utm_campaign=Sunday_December_30_2012_-_1&campaigner=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf?utm_source=Campaigner&utm_campaign=Sunday_December_30_2012_-_1&campaigner=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail)

Page 5 shows the table with all the STR percentages.

Note that both, Balochi and Altai is elevated in Albanians and have same ratio as in Celtic (Irish). I don't think Gypsies have anything to do with it because according to the table they have 0.0% Balochi but North India component instead and North India component is 0.0% everywhere else. Also the Irish Travellers have recently been shown to be not of Gypsy but of separate Irish ancestry.

Regarding Y-HG E,J, etc. they could be explained away by "Anatolia South Caucasus" component which is ubiquitous everywhere, provided that STRs are reliable at all.

I personally believe that the Salishan component indicates paleolithic europeans ancestry, and this is high in the Irish but 0.0% in Albanians.


wow
lets see

1- Basquez ok,

2 tocharians were R1a but went to central Asia,
so that is a problem cause gives 3 open doors behind
a) Tocharians learn IE in middle near EAST and spoke Turkic before
b) R1a went to central asia with IE and R1a homeland is Balkans
c) they came they learn or teach IE and they return (seems little bit silly)

3, Yes R1b road seem to pass from 2 ways one is above Black sea , and other to south Greece to west of Dinaric alps to central europe.
but seems 1rst road above Black sea was from Leyla teppe to Maykop (North Iran Azerbaizan Armenia Laz(possible splitto Hettit) Georgia to European steppe)

4. Varna is catalytic, cause seems to be connected with Rudna glava in Serbia, Sesklo Vinca etc

5 Summerian is strange, it can be connected with both Akkadian and Altaic,
connecting it with Altaic we have the Nostradic languages and connection of IE with Turkic
connecting it with Akkadian we have ur-urartian languages, and connection of IE with Semitic languages
but seems that LPIE share enough with both,
recently I was in touch with 5 Cypriots who work in summerian language and I was amazed
like the word Lillies (flowers) (Turkish Lalle ) the word Gal- Gaul (Big one-giant) (Slavic goliam, Biblical Goliath etc) and many others.

6 About Gennetics is strange, and I would like to know if the peaks are general spread or local
Although Albania as historical migrations has
a Celtic or para-Celtic invasion at 2000 BC with response from E Hg from central Greece, they both make Illyrians as historically said (Illyria)
yet parts that are mixed with Thracians and Messapians
the later known Phoenician Gettan-Dacian and Greek colonisation and Roman conquerors. (as Illyricum)
a possible entrance of Visigothic female population
again a Gaulish pass through Albania and return and settle and Join Flavia Legion but mainly outside Kossovo (Nis) although can be connected (Scordisci and Serdi might be of them, but they should also found in Beograd Serbia, Romania, Skanza mountains Bulgaria and Cappadokia minor Asia)
the Slavic entrance
The Cumans (Turkic people) entrance
some Normans' invasion but limited (as Arber and Alba)
Hungro-Romanian entrance (Hunjades)
Turkish entrance (major ottomanization-muslimization of Albania)
yet another strange is that Anjou that ceated Alba came from France but their homeland was considered Romania and Alba Lullia.

so I see no general isolation, especially at roman and ottoman times when Egnatia road (Con/polis-Rome) and the Axios road (bardar, from Thessaloniki to Wien and Poland) pass from Kossovo
so if we speak about local peaks well then ok, but if we speak about general peaks spread all over then I give up,
yet although we know that a naval road from Levant to Albania to West Sicily to Carhedon (Carthage) to Spain to Atlantic existed
East mediterean emporium settlements have benn found all the way to European Islands
I Give up I can't help more. except that ancient Greek place Celts or para Celts at Pannoni Basin

what surpises me is the lack of East mediterenean component since Albania has a lot of E and J2 Y-DNA,
that is like a shock,
do you have any link to that? I need data to check it.


PS

the only connection I can find with Balochi is the Persian migration to balkans of Skodra Skoudra satrapy, but still we know it historically mentioned, with little evidence, and most think in Thrace North and east of Makedonia. but in Illyria? too far.

a possible good explanation also will be if that balochi is from Jevgs and gabels reachin a peak 6-10% but that should also give 2-5% in Greece and 5-8% Bulgaria and Romania, except if these people were excluded from search as eternal devastation (Indian gypsies).
gypsies are also strong in Ireland I think.
gypsies at balkans were forced to settle at one place mainly at 20th century, and yet they deny modern way of living, so a random sample would include them but a specified search will exclude them, as non habitants of a certain village population,
Istill don't get that Ballochi.

ElHorsto
04-01-13, 14:58
6 About Gennetics is strange, and I would like to know if the peaks are general spread or local


I think DNAtribes shows the percentages of non-local components in europe only. This would explain the strange figures and many 0.0% in many fields. It can be interesting for finding historical trails like with Y-HG, but it does not show full ancestry.

Yetos
04-01-13, 17:33
There are theories that Scythia (Ukraine) was were the slavic R1a was concentrated before it spread in europe. Although people are saying here that R1b also went through Scythia, so first it might have been R1b then R1a came and displaced it west sometime in the Bronze age or later. Tribes from there have always been nomadic and opportunistically predatory, since the land is a steppe and it is hard to defend a permanent fortification.

Thracians (and Dacians) supposedly had red hair and were the bronze-age R1b invaders of the area, forming an elite over the neolithic indigenous populations, who were probably a mix of E-V13, J2, G, and I. They are related with Illyrians and possibly celts, since the tribes in the west balkan are usually classified as Celto-Illyrian, and tribes in the east balkan as Thraco-Illyrian. Then "very recently" around 400 BC some of them got tired of tribal lifestyle and formed the ancient Macedonian state, which took over part of greece and Illyria and borrowed the greek alphabet (being shepherd tribes they had no alphabet of their own and little use for writing).
Then Alexander the Great became king and took over all the great known empires from persia to india.
Then the romans came along and threw everybody into oblivion.
Then in the middle ages after the hun and the slav invasion, most thracians were dead. Genetically you might find mixed descendants mostly in romania, northern greece, and albania.


what? at 400 BC Thracians got tired of being Thracians and become Makedonians?
so one day they wake up and said, no, we will not be Thracians, we will be Makedonians,
and borrow Greek alphabet?
bettter read again history of Makedonia.

so now Makedonians are not from Fyrom, neither Albanians but Thraqcians?
do you know the other joke
Jesus was born in Betleemo and was Illyro-Thracian.

kamani
04-01-13, 18:43
what? at 400 BC Thracians got tired of being Thracians and become Makedonians?
so one day they wake up and said, no, we will not be Thracians, we will be Makedonians,
and borrow Greek alphabet?
bettter read again history of Makedonia.

so now Makedonians are not from Fyrom, neither Albanians but Thraqcians?
do you know the other joke
Jesus was born in Betleemo and was Illyro-Thracian.

would it bother you if ancient macedonians were Illyro-Thracian? Other than greco-centric propaganda, everybody else believes they were not greek. That was a nice diversion thou, pretending you didn't know who the thracians are.

zanipolo
04-01-13, 19:23
Scythians were an Iranian steppe people who inhabited the Russian steppe and parts of Central Asia, they were nomadic and some think that their domain extended as far as Mongolia which would explain Mongol use of horses in subsequent centuries. I think most agree that they were mostly R1a.

Thracians lived mostly around the area of Southern Romania and Bulgaria. I don't know much about them, but I have heard people claim that they are related closely to Illyrians. Their haplogroups were likely very varied, due to their exposed location.

Dacians lived in modern day Romania, some think that they were a subset of the Thracians. Their haplogroups I think were very diverse just like that of the Thracians.

All 3 of these groups spoke Indo-European languages. Genetically I think Scythians were overwhelmingly Indo-European, and I think both Dacians and Thracians had an Indo-European elite but most were of Near-Eastern ancestry. Some may have had haplogroup I (especially in the mountainous parts of Romania).

this is the Euro map used, I suggest you read the digest section of the link

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-europa.html

DNATribes speak of STRs and not SNPs of people.

Dacians are thracians, Dacians are one part of the group

Templar
04-01-13, 19:31
this is the Euro map used, I suggest you read the digest section of the link

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-europa.html

DNATribes speak of STRs and not SNPs of people.

Dacians are thracians, Dacians are one part of the group

Yeah that is exactly what I said. They are likely a subset of the Thracian population, as in all Dacians are Thracian but not all Thracians are Dacian.

MOESAN
04-01-13, 23:16
Udmurt markers are also found in continental celtic lands in central europe.

In regards to thracian STRs, it was already in eastern europe prior to migration and to this dat is still the dominant group for the areas in question. Migration was not that great in numbers.


What are your sources about genetic markers shared by Udmurts and continental celtic lands of Europe? what is the precise meaning of "continental Europe" here?

I don't know if it is you but someone said in this thread Udmurts was 'turkic': I was told they are 'uralic' speaking, not 'turkic'...good evening
Moesan

zanipolo
05-01-13, 00:39
What are your sources about genetic markers shared by Udmurts and continental celtic lands of Europe? what is the precise meaning of "continental Europe" here?

I don't know if it is you but someone said in this thread Udmurts was 'turkic': I was told they are 'uralic' speaking, not 'turkic'...good evening
Moesan


there is a term called continental celtic ...basically from central europe and east of that and then there is the other celtic western Europe and isles

I think I said they where Turkic , but because I have some of these alleles and no Turkic , then I assume they must not be originally turkic.

my STR tests via DNATribes state Udmurt and later Alans , both are in continental celtic group .......check with there site to find out the markers you seek
Percentages express genetic traces of more ancient links between European populations and neighboring and related world populations.

More information about Mediterranean links between Western Europe (including Galician related populations) and Italy is included in these Digest articles: http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2010-11-30.pdf and http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-07-01.pdf


More information about links between Europe and indigenous ethnic groups of the Caucasus Mountains (such as Balkar populations) is available at http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-05-01.pdf

Yetos
05-01-13, 00:41
would it bother you if ancient macedonians were Illyro-Thracian? Other than greco-centric propaganda, everybody else believes they were not greek. That was a nice diversion thou, pretending you didn't know who the thracians are.

kamani I am not making propaganda, you do.

what illyroThracians? Greek knew Makedonians from 750 Bc and illyrians from 450 Bc,
setting clear difference among them.
Makedonian dialect is known from Alexandreia lexicons.
their words are Greek not illyrian, from 600 Bc we find Makedonian texts written in Greek alphabet not in Thracian neither in Illyrian. Thracian texts written in Greek even today are not explained, like erzerovo ring.
Pella katadesmos (Makedonian) can be explained, Erzerovo ring (Thracian) does not.

when you learn to read the sources, then come back again,

you agree with Herodotos that illyrians are a mix of Cypriots and Levantines and palestinians with Keltos, but then you say E is caycasian,
and then you deny Greek sources about Makedonians cause does not fit your propaganada,

so for you Makedonians were Keltes and Levantines and Thracians, that one day they wake up, they said no, they learn Greek and they decided to be and speak Greek right?

Is that you are telling us?
haven't you something better to tell us?

HAVE YOU READ THE THREADS ABOUT MAKEDONIANS IN THE FORUM?

tell me if I wake up tomorrow and get bored of Being Makedonian will I be Thracian again?

and you tell me about propaganda,


when you learn who Pieri and who Karanos was come back

first you tell us that 92% of modern Greeks are not Greeks and 45% are Albanians,
then you told us that Balkanian E-V13 is Neolithic,
then you told us that Pharaoh Ramses was E Hg so E is caucasian
now you tell us that Makedonians were Thracians that one day decided not to be Thracians but Makedonians,

go to another Albano-Centric foroum to discuss with Zeus10 The Theory that Albanian is mother of IE languages

who knows maybe tomorrow you and Fyrom make Jesus a 'Macedonian' or an Albanian cause a village named Betleemo outside Tettovo.

Templar
05-01-13, 00:51
so for you Makedonians were Keltes and Levantines and Thracians, that one day they wake up, they said no, they learn Greek and they decided to be and speak Greek right?

Yetos, keep in mind that conquered people and people who are near a more civilized people, often adopt a new language. Are you saying that all Greeks are descendants of the original Greeks and no-one else is? That is ridiculous.

nordicwarrior
05-01-13, 00:58
Yetos, Templar, Kamani--I appreciate those answers very much. I probably have even more questions now than before. :)

Yetos
05-01-13, 01:08
Yetos, keep in mind that conquered people and people who are near a more civilized people, often adopt a new language. Are you saying that all Greeks are descendants of the original Greeks and no-one else is? That is ridiculous.

Templar I am tired of propagandists,

all historians and all archaiological evidence show who Makedonians were,
read my post again and then say what and who ridiculous,
also read the threads in the forum.
threads are to read and make conclusions, not just to write.

when you read it you will understand what I am talking,
people here say that one day Thracians got bored and wake up Makedonians.

I know that in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia that was teached in Schools, but why don't you search about?

ridiculous is to say that 92% of Greek population has nothing to do with Greek.
ridiculous is to say that balkanic E is Caucasian,
ridiculous is what ever has enter our mind from a propaganda, no matter we know it is wrong or false,
but we keep spreading it.

Templar
05-01-13, 01:14
Templar I am tired of propagandists,

all historians and all archaiological evidence show who Makedonians were,
read my post again and they say what and who ridiculous,
also read the threads in the forum.
threads are to read and make conclusions, not just to write.

when you read it you will understand what I am talking,
people here say that one day Thracians got bored and wake up Makedonians.

I know that in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia that was teached in Schools, but why don't you search about?

ridiculous is to say that 92% of Greek population has nothing to do with Greek.
ridiculous is to say that balkanic E is Caucasian,
ridiculous is what ever has enter our mind from a propaganda, no matter we know it is wrong or false,
but we keep spreading it.

I hope that you don't think I am a propagandist ;) I think we agree on most things...Who said that Balkan E was from the Caucus? Seems pretty far-fetched. Could it have been the result of Egyptian slaves? Haplogroup E is the most common in Northern Africa, and the most heavily populated part of Northern Africa was Egypt so I think it is possible.

Yetos
05-01-13, 01:29
I hope that you don't think I am a propagandist ;) I think we agree on most things...Who said that Balkan E was from the Caucus? Seems pretty far-fetched. Could it have been the result of Egyptian slaves? Haplogroup E is the most common in Northern Africa, and the most heavily populated part of Northern Africa was Egypt so I think it is possible.

templar in my post I wrote a name,

read all posts here and you will understand what I am talking about,
some people think that their propaganda is truth, and Greek should fear it,
I never about modern populations purity, or 100%
that is an episode which you should read by foolowing the posts of someones when you want to have fun,
plz lets keep in Thread,

kamani
05-01-13, 02:32
Yetos,
when you start with the greek word games, and the long incoherent nonsense, I know I touched a weak spot..
Look up: George Rawlinson M.A, Canon of Canterbury and Camden Professor of Ancient history at the University of Oxford.
He thinks macedonians were thraco-illyrian. When you become a professor at oxford I might consider your opinion over his.

Yetos
05-01-13, 04:06
Yetos,
when you start with the greek word games, and the long incoherent nonsense, I know I touched a weak spot..
Look up: George Rawlinson M.A, Canon of Canterbury and Camden Professor of Ancient history at the University of Oxford.
He thinks macedonians were thraco-illyrian. When you become a professor at oxford I might consider your opinion over his.

Kamani will you bring more dead people?

Canon George Rawlinson (23 November 1812 – 7 October 1902)
his theory is more than 1 century old

Pella katadesmos. and Erzerovo ring have been found lateley after his death,
Varna has been found recently
until Varna we believe that Gold was found in Georgia, today we not,

and goes like chain.

and if you speak about old people

SEARCH HESYCHIUS THE ALEXANDREIAN LEXICON OF MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE.

when Rawlinson lived we have other criteria and other discoveries, today we have other new that he did not know,
so leave the person rest in peace, and face the modern truth,
Pella katadesmos and Erzerovo ring 2 different languages sharing same alphabet,

WHY YOU DON"T ASK THE MODERN PROFFESORS OF OXFORD TO TELL YOU?

I don't want you to consider my opinion,
in Fact the only I want is to stop bullshit propaganda

Illyro-Thracian was only 1 place Dardania the rest was Illyria and Thrace and 1 was centum and the other satem so plz don't bring me another anachronistic theory.
the rest are your imagination
Illyrian was centum and Albanian is satem and Thracian was satem.
so go find a modern living with good arguements, and not what he believes,
besides you tell so,
send us a link of the work that claims that, and then send as a link if he knew.

I WILL NEVER BE AN OXFORD PROFFESOR,
BUT YOU WILL NEVER LEARN THE TRUTH BELIEVING ANACHRONISTIC THEORIES THAT ARE DROPED BY MODERN BY THE DISCOVERIES AFTER THEM.

Ask the modern proffesors of Oxford and the modern archaiologists of Oxford what they say today not in 1850

in 1850 doctors use other methods
so go to a doctor of 1850 to get healed when you are sick
in 1850 people build with stone and bricks, so don't use concrete today at your house,


Ok my friend?
I will never be an Oxford proffesor, so avoid my opinion and modern scientific discoveries
but tomorrow when you get ill you will go to a doctor that uses 1850-1870 methods,
IS it a DEAL?

in 1700 great proffesors used lyches to cure diseases, does that mean that today we must make the same?
after Rawlinson have you any idea how many discoveries by archaiologists gennetists etc have been found?

Ιπποκρατης Ippocrates was maybe the best doctor at his time, what that means, today we must follow his methods or opinions?

besides I don't know if Rawlington claim that you say, a simmilar, or you claim that using his name,
at least give a book, a work. chapter, publisher year etc,


PS
just look what you say
you have find a weak spot of me?
so your target was I?
wow thank you very much,
so all this time you were aiming me in this forum?
so much time so many posts in the forum and your goal was me?
what can I say after that?

Yetos
05-01-13, 06:28
I would like to explain what i mean about Summerian

WHY SUMMERIAN LANGUAGE IS A KEY TO UNDERSTAND IE

now lets see 2 summerian words
a) liligi
b) Kur

lets see the Nostradic case
liligi = flowers or mushroom in Summerian
li+li = plural number
lillies lillium in the IE language
Lale in Turkish language

here we see IE and Turkish have simmilar with Summerian

lets the other word kur
kur in Summerian is the mountain the high mountain tops,
lets see in IE
Kurds = mountain people
ancient Greek mountain ορος (k?)oros but top of the mountain Korufe κορυφη
so we see Kor,
Slavic Gora


now lets go to Turkish
the mountain top is teppe tepecik is the hill and Dag is the mountain (Dag tepesi)
teppe reminds me the
Esthonian mae tippu
most Germanic toppen bergtop

I have to admit that i don't know how the aspirations work here among 2 Bigger groups of languistic families
and maybe I am wrong but I am certain the the word dag is missing from both Summerian and IE and the word teppe is surely missing from ancient Greek which in combo with post 26 of El horsto that Greece has the lowest Altaic genetical relation I think is a good start to unlock doors, especially the Summerian and IE connection, and Turkic and IE connection

I just put a dilemma among Nostradic and Ur-Urartian connection of Summerian,
Εng copper GR κυπρος and TR bakir
ENg vision GR ορασις and TR Bakis
English big huge great BLG golyam Pol wielky Summerian gal Turkish buyuk kocaman

So now I put the question in a different form,
IE went from Summerians to steppe, or from steppe to Summerian,
all that in combo that Greek is IE but has the lowest Altai genetical connection but enough Summerian linguistic connection.

thank you, and sory for not using Avestan and Sansqrit and Armenian and rest IE

kamani
05-01-13, 09:56
Kamani will you bring more dead people?

Canon George Rawlinson (23 November 1812 – 7 October 1902)
his theory is more than 1 century old


So if someone dies their theories are no good anymore according to you. That makes Einstein and Newton a bunch of idiots because they're dead. Do you even proofread your nonsense anymore, or is it the ouzo speaking.
Where is your doctors of history saying macedonians were greek?

Yetos
05-01-13, 11:37
So if someone dies their theories are no good anymore according to you. That makes Einstein and Newton a bunch of idiots because they're dead. Do you even proofread your nonsense anymore, or is it the ouzo speaking.
Where is your doctors of history saying macedonians were greek?

indeed you don't know Makedonia, Makedonia has tsipouro not ouzo,
if Rawlinson knew the modern discoveries that been found in excavations he probably had another theory,
understand that,
now about Newton and Einstein, can't you find the difference among Laws and theories?

Even Newton's laws after Laurence transformations (1920's) are overpassed to limited area.

plz read 2 threads about Makedonia, it is boring to write about that again, in another thread that has nothing to do,

From Aristotle's times we have 2 degrees of scientific proves

we start with an αξιωμα axiom
then we create θεωρια theory,
and if theory is eternal we have νομος laws,
and even eternal is something strange,
cause even Newton's laws today are overpassed cause from Laurence transformations.

kamani
05-01-13, 14:17
5791

Can you tell where greece is in this map? Mycaneans were the greek speakers, so that kind of locks you guys way more south than you claim. The rest of current greece was a patch-work of pelasgians, illyrians, thracians, and greek minorities.

PS. If you were greek, you would call it ouzo...

Yetos
05-01-13, 15:10
kamani plz sto nonsences, and facultated, and the read the threads in the forum about,
This forum has another issue than your nationalistic claims.
Myceneans are connected with Vucocar Croatia and Vatin Serbia to sicily
besides Greeks were not Mycenans-Achaians in Homer,


All you want to do I think is to create impressions.
or you just lazy to read the 2 threads in forum.

myceneans is Achain branch of Greeks,
there are also the Aeolians, Ionians, Dorians, Minyans, Ellimeians etc


and plz stop your ...

Tsipoyro is after Greek Στιφος which is the outer part of the grapes, Στιπερα
the sweet part of grapes produce wine, the στιφα part produce Στιφερα->Stipoyra
in plural is Στιφερα -Στιπουρα ->Τσιπουρα
Ouzo is Fancais word
the Greek word is Μαστιχη Masticha
tsipouro is made what is left from wine, so has a στιφη taste and no mastiche
ouzo is a drink that contain mastiche
Tsipoyro is Makedonian word
Tsikoydia is the Cretan word
Raki is the Turkish word
Uzo is another drink that contains gum (Μαστιχη) and the word is from Marseille where first produced.

I am not answering you any more, about that in this thread, about such things,
plz keep in thread

your method
Myceneans = Greeks
Aeolians = non Greek so not in map
is just twisted
does this map contain Aeolians? or Aeolians were not Greeks

besides the best answer to you is what Archaiologists have discover

From Vucedol we see who Myceneans were?
From Varna we see that Myceneans and Thracian had same burial customs much before IE?

and if you want to see who Myceneans were
SEARCH THE VATIN-VRSAC culture
the rest are anachronistic,
in future after Varna finishing all searches we might even both be wrong,

Myceneans and Thracians used burial masks which is a Varna culture custom.
when you understand that go and bring me another 1800 possible theory, or just twist and tell us that Aeolians were not Greeks, or Ionians were Turks, or what ever twisted,

the map is Myceneans at the time of Troy, not does not conclude Aeolians Dorians Ionians etc.
plz search the Vatin-Vrsac culture and don't bring twisted proves,
THE ONLY YOU want TO DO IS TO CrEATE TWISTED IMPRESSIONS.

IT IS LIKE TELLING US THAT SINCE GERMANY OF TODAY IS DEUTSCHLAND, ALL GERMANIC PEOPLE MUST BE THERE, AND ONLY THERE .
BUT GERMANIC PEOPLE ARE ALSO AUSTRIANS DUTCH etc not only Germany.

PS
your map or claim is just like saying that Albania is only gegeria
just like if someone show you the gegeria and say this is Albania,
that much ridiculous claims

Gods I am tired of twisted posts and methods,

kamani
05-01-13, 19:53
According to Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) the Aeolians were originally Pelasgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians). In book seven (7.95) of "The Histories" Herodotus states: "The Aeolians (also, as the Greeks suppose, originally a Pelasgian people) contributed 60. Their equipment was Greek."
So the greeks thought of themselves separate from the pelasgians (which Aeolians were).
First you pretend that the thracian did not exist; we just know their name.. (I guess their existence bothers you because they were in macedonia and they weren't greek).
then your memory comes back and you say they used burial masks just because supposedly they found them in early bronze age Varna. (so now that you can't make them dissapear, you're trying to make them greek)
I might make a few mistakes because I am not a professional historian, but you maliciously mislead people.

Anyway back on the topic:
Hittite 2000 BC - 1200 BC Anatolia, Indo-European
Mycaneans 1900 BC – c. 1200 BC, Indo-European
Phrygians 1200 BC - 675 BC Anatolia, Indo-European
Thracians 1100 BC - Balkans, Indo-European
Illyrians 1100 BC - Balkans, Indo-European
Celtic Hallstat 800 BC - Western Europe, Indo-European

I see a trail of R1b people from the caucasus -> anatolia -> balkans -> western europe. R1b mutations also follow the same story, with the parent clades being in anatolia and balkans.
When Alexander the Great met phrygians (trojans) in anatolia, he considered them to be his own people.
Alexander the Great always had celts and illyrians in his army. On the contrary, the persians always had more greeks fighting in their ranks against Alexander.
Alexander completely destroyed to the ground 30-something greek cities.
Thracians, Illyrians, and celts always allied with the trojans (hittites, phrygians), rather than the greeks.
I see a pattern of this latter wave of R1b tribes, who consolidated in the area around the same time, knowing and helping each other. The mycanean greeks have always been their southern adversary since trojan times.

Yetos
05-01-13, 23:50
According to Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) the Aeolians were originally Pelasgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians). In book seven (7.95) of "The Histories" Herodotus states: "The Aeolians (also, as the Greeks suppose, originally a Pelasgian people) contributed 60. Their equipment was Greek."
So the greeks thought of themselves separate from the pelasgians (which Aeolians were).
First you pretend that the thracian did not exist; we just know their name.. (I guess their existence bothers you because they were in macedonia and they weren't greek).
then your memory comes back and you say they used burial masks just because supposedly they found them in early bronze age Varna. (so now that you can't make them dissapear, you're trying to make them greek)
I might make a few mistakes because I am not a professional historian, but you maliciously mislead people.

Anyway back on the topic:
Hittite 2000 BC - 1200 BC Anatolia, Indo-European
Mycaneans 1900 BC – c. 1200 BC, Indo-European
Phrygians 1200 BC - 675 BC Anatolia, Indo-European
Thracians 1100 BC - Balkans, Indo-European
Illyrians 1100 BC - Balkans, Indo-European
Celtic Hallstat 800 BC - Western Europe, Indo-European

I see a trail of R1b people from the caucasus -> anatolia -> balkans -> western europe. R1b mutations also follow the same story, with the parent clades being in anatolia and balkans.
When Alexander the Great met phrygians (trojans) in anatolia, he considered them to be his own people.
Alexander the Great always had celts and illyrians in his army. On the contrary, the persians always had more greeks fighting in their ranks against Alexander.
Alexander completely destroyed to the ground 30-something greek cities.
Thracians, Illyrians, and celts always allied with the trojans (hittites, phrygians), rather than the greeks.
I see a pattern of this latter wave of R1b tribes, who consolidated in the area around the same time, knowing and helping each other. The mycanean greeks have always been their southern adversary since trojan times.


Kamani when I say I am tired, I am,


1)

KAMANI YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOUR SHELF,
IF I WAS YOU MAYBE I COMMITED SUICIDE.
THANK GODS I AM NOT

ΗΡΟΔΟΤΟΥ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑΙ

94

1 Ἴωνες δὲ ἑκατὸν νέας παρείχοντο ἐσκευασμένοι ὡς Ἕλληνες. Ἴωνες δὲ ὅσον μὲν χρόνον ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ οἴκεον τὴν νῦν καλεομένην Ἀχαιίην, καὶ πρὶν ἢ Δαναόν τε καὶ Ξοῦθον ἀπικέσθαι ἐς Πελοπόννησον, ὡς Ἕλληνες λέγουσι, ἐκαλέοντο Πελασγοὶ Αἰγιαλέες, ἐπὶ δὲ Ἴωνος τοῦ Ξούθου Ἴωνες.

95

1 νησιῶται δὲ ἑπτακαίδεκα παρείχοντο νέας, ὡπλισμένοι ὡς Ἕλληνες, καὶ τοῦτο Πελασγικὸν ἔθνος; ὕστερον δὲ Ἰωνικὸν ἐκλήθη κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον καὶ οἱ δυωδεκαπόλιες Ἴωνες οἱ ἀπ᾽ Ἀθηνέων. Αἰολέες δὲ ἑξήκοντα νέας παρείχοντο, ἐσκευασμένοι τε ὡς Ἕλληνες καὶ τὸ πάλαι καλεόμενοι Πελασγοί, ὡς Ἑλλήνων λόγος. 2 Ἑλλησπόντιοι δὲ πλὴν Ἀβυδηνῶν (Ἀβυδηνοῖσι γὰρ προσετέτακτο ἐκ βασιλέος κατὰ χώρην μένουσι φύλακας εἶναι τῶν γεφυρέων) οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ οἱ ἐκ τοῦ Πόντου στρατευόμενοι παρείχοντο μὲν ἑκατὸν νέας, ἐσκευασμένοι δὲ ἦσαν ὡς Ἕλληνες. οὗτοι δὲ Ἰώνων καὶ Δωριέων ἄποικοι.



YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED

DOES IT SAY AEOLIAN KAMANI? TELL US DOES IT SAY AEOLIAN?
IS IONIAN SAME WITH AEOLIAN?





POINT 2


KAMANI WERE PHRYGIANS WERE?

DO YOU KNOW WHY ALEXANDER CONSIDER PHRYGIANS AS HIS Cousins due to Mygdonians?

let me tell you wise guy

1) Bryges were Herodotos places them?

73

1 φρύγες δὲ ἀγχοτάτω τῆς Παφλαγονικῆς σκευὴν εἶχον, ὀλίγον παραλλάσσοντες. οἱ δὲ Φρύγες, ὡς Μακεδόνες λέγουσι, ἐκαλέοντο Βρίγες χρόνον ὅσον Εὐρωπήιοι ἐόντες σύνοικοι ἦσαν Μακεδόσι, μεταβάντες δὲ ἐς τὴν Ἀσίην ἅμα τῇ χώρῃ καὶ τὸ οὔνομα μετέβαλον ἐς Φρύγας. Ἀρμένιοι δὲ κατά περ Φρύγες ἐσεσάχατο, ἐόντες Φρυγῶν ἄποικοι. τούτων συναμφοτέρων ἦρχε Ἀρτόχμης Δαρείου ἔχων θυγατέρα.



SO PHRYGIANS LIVED BESIDE WITH MAKEDONIANS, INFACT NORTH AND WEST OF PAEONIA, EXCEPT EDESSA CITY (in Brygian means water-castle) in where today lake Λυχνιτις (Ohrida) is and Tettovo is to almost river Strymon.
But Brygian language is isotones and isoglosses with Greek and together they make the Greco-Brygian which is part of Greco-Aryan which is a LPIE well known and well attested language since it is very well known to all except you maybe,
Edessa 20 km from Pella was the old Phrygian capital.
Mygdonians are the Hellenised Brygians, the ones who stayed behind,
Bottiaeoi is the 4rth component,
Ellimeians is the 12rst component,
Argites is the 1rst
so Makedonians were 4 components from which 3 were Greek and 1 was Thracian isotones and isoglosses with Greek
go find the Brygian language, or at least the connection of Greco-Brygian.
Hellenistic have much Thracian due to Bryges,
2 major Theories-Hypothesis of LPIE that of Greco-Aryan and the Armenian (Armeno-Thracian) first connection of Greek have Brygian-Phrygian (Greco-Brygian) and then the rest.

want to discuss more your posts?
you want me to quote what you said to us? and discuss more?

well at least change your teacher, or do us a favore and get new books. if you don't commit suicide.

Kamani Phrygians were Balkanic people not Anatolian.

now go back to your anachronistic and Albano-centric propagandistic Theories


PS
you are so twisted that you make Greeks only the Myceneans leaving outside the rest,
and Then you facultated Herodotus thelling us the lie that Aeolians were Pelasgians, while the original say about Ionians,
(you make on purpose Ionians=Aeolians)

AT LEAST ASK FORGIVENESS FROM THE READERS OF THE FORUM, for your mistakes and facultated posts, and for destroying the thread for nationalistic propaganda purposes.



I wonder your claims with Rawlinson are the same type facultated data, or you just found someone and tell us your fairytale and use a random proffesor's signature to give some prestice.

MOESAN
05-01-13, 23:53
KAMANI even if you have interesting thoughts, you seam believing in a kind or fraternity among same Y-HG bearers : if you studied History, even on the top as me, you oought to know people and tribes are not always faithfull to their brethen - and it seams to me you have a very personal way to interpret History -

MOESAN
06-01-13, 00:58
there is a term called continental celtic ...basically from central europe and east of that and then there is the other celtic western Europe and isles

I think I said they where Turkic , but because I have some of these alleles and no Turkic , then I assume they must not be originally turkic.

my STR tests via DNATribes state Udmurt and later Alans , both are in continental celtic group .......check with there site to find out the markers you seek
Percentages express genetic traces of more ancient links between European populations and neighboring and related world populations.

More information about Mediterranean links between Western Europe (including Galician related populations) and Italy is included in these Digest articles: http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2010-11-30.pdf and http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-07-01.pdf


More information about links between Europe and indigenous ethnic groups of the Caucasus Mountains (such as Balkar populations) is available at http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-05-01.pdf

Thanks for the links - I red a lot -
I'm surprised by the heterogeneity of "reference poles" in DNA tribes - yet i'm not found of STRs but here I see that for every country or region analysis the reference population (genes strong distributions places?) envolved are different: no sound basis...
I'm disappointed!
I conclude: at first sight, a beautiful gift pack paper but fairies tales inside...

MOESAN
06-01-13, 01:00
sorry, I was too hard: not fairy tales concerning the historic digest, but the genetic part is very light

kamani
06-01-13, 01:00
KAMANI even if you have interesting thoughts, you seam believing in a kind or fraternity among same Y-HG bearers : if you studied History, even on the top as me, you oought to know people and tribes are not always faithfull to their brethen - and it seams to me you have a very personal way to interpret History -

illyrians, celts, and thracians, appear roughly at the same time in neighboring areas.
Greek mythology consider Keltus, Illyrus, and Gallus as brothers.
Historically they always allie against the greeks who consider them all barbarians.
Ofcourse people don't get along even within the same tribe, there is evidence of the celts harrasing the illyrians and vice-versa.

But when it comes to international conflicts race and culture affinity5792
do matter, not to mention common interest. For example a whole bunch of barbarian tribes allied against rome for centuries until they destroyed it.
My greek friend here, who is about to commit suicide, is angry because they have always been taking undue credit for everything within current greek borders.
Sometimes the truth comes from somebody who has the liberty to say it...

zanipolo
06-01-13, 01:13
sorry, I was too hard: not fairy tales concerning the historic digest, but the genetic part is very light

i too initially thought it as fairy-tales, but expert genologists see a lot of merit and fact in their data especially the other thread here which is DNAtribes Jan 2013 issue

zanipolo
06-01-13, 01:17
According to Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) the Aeolians were originally Pelasgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians). In book seven (7.95) of "The Histories" Herodotus states: "The Aeolians (also, as the Greeks suppose, originally a Pelasgian people) contributed 60. Their equipment was Greek."
So the greeks thought of themselves separate from the pelasgians (which Aeolians were).
First you pretend that the thracian did not exist; we just know their name.. (I guess their existence bothers you because they were in macedonia and they weren't greek).
then your memory comes back and you say they used burial masks just because supposedly they found them in early bronze age Varna. (so now that you can't make them dissapear, you're trying to make them greek)
I might make a few mistakes because I am not a professional historian, but you maliciously mislead people.

Anyway back on the topic:
Hittite 2000 BC - 1200 BC Anatolia, Indo-European
Mycaneans 1900 BC – c. 1200 BC, Indo-European
Phrygians 1200 BC - 675 BC Anatolia, Indo-European
Thracians 1100 BC - Balkans, Indo-European
Illyrians 1100 BC - Balkans, Indo-European
Celtic Hallstat 800 BC - Western Europe, Indo-European

I see a trail of R1b people from the caucasus -> anatolia -> balkans -> western europe. R1b mutations also follow the same story, with the parent clades being in anatolia and balkans.
When Alexander the Great met phrygians (trojans) in anatolia, he considered them to be his own people.
Alexander the Great always had celts and illyrians in his army. On the contrary, the persians always had more greeks fighting in their ranks against Alexander.
Alexander completely destroyed to the ground 30-something greek cities.
Thracians, Illyrians, and celts always allied with the trojans (hittites, phrygians), rather than the greeks.
I see a pattern of this latter wave of R1b tribes, who consolidated in the area around the same time, knowing and helping each other. The mycanean greeks have always been their southern adversary since trojan times.

what are you trying to aim at with all of this ?

Yetos
06-01-13, 01:35
illyrians, celts, and thracians, appear roughly at the same time in neighboring areas.
Greek mythology consider Keltus, Illyrus, and Gallus as brothers.
Historically they always allie against the greeks who consider them all barbarians.
Ofcourse people don't get along even within the same tribe, there is evidence of the celts harrasing the illyrians and vice-versa.

But when it comes to international conflicts race and culture affinity5792
do matter, not to mention common interest. For example a whole bunch of barbarian tribes allied against rome for centuries until they destroyed it.
My greek friend here, who is about to commit suicide, is angry because they have always been taking undue credit for everything within current greek borders.
Sometimes the truth comes from somebody who has the liberty to say it...


kamani first you tell us that E-v13 is neolithic caucasian,
then you tell us that 92% of modern Greeks are not Greeks,
then that your target is me.
then you tell us that Phrygians were Anatolians,
then you tell us that Makedonians were Thracians,
you twisted and facultated data
big example the 7/95 of Herodotus, above,

now you tell us that Thracian were brothers of Celts and not of Greeks, yet the academic comnunities share 3 theories about IE connection and in both 3 Greeks are connected with Thracians via either Cotofeni-Vatin or Via Aryan minor-Asia,

the rest are just imagination of yours, or you do that in purpose,

when Herodotus describes illyrians connected with Keltos (not Galates) youuse it,
But when when Herodotus describes Makedonians and Brygians and Aeolians you twist it and you facultate it as you like,

That is part of your theory


interesting...judging from pictures of the mummy, Ramesses III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III) was sort of caucasoid. This might mean that even the Black African branch E1b1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38_%28Y-DNA%29) was originally caucasoid.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28269-Ramesses-III-belonged-to-haplogroup-E1b1a
(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28269-Ramesses-III-belonged-to-haplogroup-E1b1a)

THE BEST THING TO DO IS ASK FORGIVENESS FROM HERODOTUS AND GODS AND THE READERS
for fabricating his books on purpose

seems like some people create an industry to twist history, gennetics, books, data, and they are not ashamed.

Kamani tell us? do you share that Greek Latin and Slavic are Clergy languages?


you didn't even search the Vatin-Vrsac culture, and you speak about R1b and Myceneans,



And again you fabricated data as you like,

Illyrus son of Kadmus who was brother of Egypt and Phoenix
where did you find that you are telling us? in your post #71. you created them? or you read them at Zeus 10 imaginary works?
Does herodotus say Gauls? Γαλατες? or you put it? as in your above posts were you said Aeolians were Pelasgians instead of what Herodotus say, although you use him?

I wonder have you ever read Herodotos Histories Ηροδοτου Ιστοριαι?

kamani
06-01-13, 01:46
what are you trying to aim at with all of this ?
I am trying to point at a possible R1b migration wave to europe after the fall of the hittite empire around or before 1200 BC. The migration split into thracians, illyrians, and celts. The phrygians was the remnant of this wave that stayed in anatolia.
On a sidenote, the romans claimed to descend from the trojans (phrygians, hittites). Coincidentally they were also R1b, based on today italians.

Yetos
06-01-13, 02:34
I am trying to point at a possible R1b migration wave to europe after the fall of the hittite empire around or before 1200 BC. The migration split into thracians, illyrians, and celts. The phrygians was the remnant of this wave that stayed in anatolia.
On a sidenote, the romans claimed to descend from the trojans (phrygians, hittites). Coincidentally they were also R1b, based on today italians.

Kamani

Phrygians were Balkanic people, not Anatolians as you like them to be,
it means that you never read Herodotus, neither you know Makedonians, neither you read about Alexander or its epigoni, simply you post what ever.

Myceneans were R1b people, genetical search had prove that,
it is written in the threads that you never read.
Myceneans and Thracians were IE but burial rituals such as the Mask show that Myceneans Thracians Makedonians follow the Varna Necroplis ritual, something that is not found yet in Illyrians (or maybe i have not informed abou that)

are you fabricating data again? are you twisting history again?

still you have not ask forgivess for fabricating Herodotus Histories

ElHorsto
06-01-13, 02:59
In terms of the route of the celts, I am more inclined towards: Anatolia -> thracia -> illyria -> western europe. A few supporting ideas are:
- albanians have one of the highest percentages in europe of R1b-M269*, the parent version of almost all western european mutations of R1b. The same subclade is also found in bulgaria, romania, greece, anatolia and Iran.
- Anatolia was a much developed area/route in antiquity (Troy for example). People would follow the warmer shorter southern route rather than go the above the black sea route.
-in the trojan war the illyrians allied mostly with the trojans (anatolia), so for some reason they felt more affinity with them than with the cretan greeks.


I agree that the Anatolia-Balkan route is still possible. But the steppe-link should not be discarded too early, since the Balkans underwent frequent and various steppic influx at different times. Regarding the Albanians, I have still no idea of their origin, just the DNAtribes 2013 digest (assuming it's reliable) now contains more hints towards the steppe rather than anatolia:

- complete lack of the East Med component, which is otherwise ubiquitous in Europe and especially in the Balkans.
- very high Altai component (7.9%), which is otherwise half as high in the Balkan average and completely absent in neighbouring Greece
- absolutely highest STR Balochi component in europe so far. (15.3%), which is also zero in Balkans and neighboring Greece. Else It is even higher in far places like Ireland.
- Albanian roots have been traced back to Dacians by some historians and others, which is situated much more north-east in today Romania, thus much closer to the steppes.

Else, the Albanians would have been the last people I would have linked to the steppes, mainly due to their Y-DNA. But this DNAtribes stuff is something new, provided it is no data garbage.



-the albanians, romanians, and greeks are surrounded by slavs in the north and north-west, so the slav migrations cuttoff the connection between the western and eastern R1b.

Although there are some links and common trails, balkan-slavs are not very similar to the rest of the slavic world. They genetically are much more similar to Romanians, Albanians and Vlachs.

kamani
06-01-13, 03:11
Kamani

Phrygians were Balkanic people, not Anatolians as you like them to be,
it means that you never read Herodotus, neither you know Makedonians, neither you read about Alexander or its epigoni, simply you post what ever.

Myceneans were R1b people, genetical search had prove that,
it is written in the threads that you never read.

are you fabricating data again? are you twisting history again?

still you have not ask forgivess for fabricating Herodotus Histories

you're still alive ?!!

Yetos
06-01-13, 03:20
you're still alive ?!!

Yes I am
have you ask forgiveness for your fabricated and false data?

I wonder 2 years in the forum, I learn so many, and many times I change my mind due to what the discuss and the evidences were?

after all that time that you are in the forum?
why you fabricated data?
why you try to give us wrong informations?

do you still believe in your posts? and your made by propagandists theories?

at least have you seen the light of non dogmatic science?

kamani
06-01-13, 03:31
I agree that the Anatolia-Balkan route is still possible. But the steppe-link should not be discarded too early, since the Balkans underwent frequent and various steppic influx at different times. Regarding the Albanians, I have still no idea of their origin, just the DNAtribes 2013 digest (assuming it's reliable) now contains more hints towards the steppe rather than anatolia:

- complete lack of the East Med component, which is otherwise ubiquitous in Europe and especially in the Balkans.
- very high Altai component (7.9%), which is otherwise half as high in the Balkan average and completely absent in neighbouring Greece
- absolutely highest STR Balochi component in europe so far. (15.3%), which is also zero in Balkans and neighboring Greece. Else It is even higher in far places like Ireland.
- Albanian roots have been traced back to Dacians by some historians and others, which is situated much more north-east in today Romania, thus much closer to the steppes.

Else, the Albanians would have been the last people I would have linked to the steppes, mainly due to their Y-DNA. But this DNAtribes stuff is something new, provided it is no data garbage.



Although there are some links and common trails, balkan-slavs are not very similar to the rest of the slavic world. They genetically are much more similar to Romanians, Albanians and Vlachs.

The sample size of DNAtribes might be too small for albanians, hence the strange absence of mediteranean component. The steppes route is also a possibility, maybe they both happened at different times. Also to consider is that albanians have a lot of dinaric I2 and R1a, which probably came from the steppes too. Those albanians with dinaric I2 or R1a would not have had a lot of time to get the east-mediteranean component, since they incorporated in the gene pool in the middle ages.

Yetos
06-01-13, 03:34
The sample size of DNAtribes might be too small for albanians, hence the strange absence of mediteranean component. The steppes route is also a possibility, maybe they both happened at different times. Also to consider is that albanians have a lot of dinaric I2 and R1a, which probably came from the steppes too. Those albanians with dinaric I2 or R1a would not have had a lot of time to get the east-mediteranean component, since they incorporated in the gene pool in the middle ages.

are you still speaking to us shameless after what you did?

asking forgiveness from Herodotus is a good action.

zanipolo
06-01-13, 04:13
I am trying to point at a possible R1b migration wave to europe after the fall of the hittite empire around or before 1200 BC. The migration split into thracians, illyrians, and celts. The phrygians was the remnant of this wave that stayed in anatolia.
On a sidenote, the romans claimed to descend from the trojans (phrygians, hittites). Coincidentally they were also R1b, based on today italians.

by 1200BC which is th eperiod of the bronze-age migrations and the sea peoples, there where no illyrians anywhere near montenegro and the celts where sill in the alps

Romans claim descent from the trojans, so do the swedes, so do the slavs....
The romans are subjugated southern etruscans that broke free from the proper etruscans, the tiber river was always the noted as an etruscan river.....IIRC the etrucans border was with modern day campania region ( naples)

read:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

KenN said
Another anomaly of the Montenegro I2a2a-Dinaric: it seems to have a lot of
448 = 18 and 389 = 14,32 haplotypes --- much more in fraction of total than
Eastern Europe I2a2a-Dinaric in general. Serbs don't seem to have it.

Illyrians are basically northern balkan people made up of 5 major tribes, Pannonians, Luburni, Dalmatian, Ardiaei and Autariatae

No Albanian marker found in the link

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3017/thaciansillyrians.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/thaciansillyrians.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


which below is the Albanian one?

I2a ancestor (P37.2+): 10.366 BP (8400 BCE)
I2a1 (M26+): 10.221 BP (8200 BCE) - this is the "Sardinian group" (plus in Iberia, France)
I2a (xI2a1): 8535 BP (6500 BCE) - Carcium Pottery Neolithic in the Mediterranean from around 5700 BCE
I2a3 (L233+) 4424 BP (2400 BCE) - Alps
I2a* France: 2892 BP (900 BCE) - France
I2a2 all ancestor (M423): 7009 BP (5000 BCE)
I2a2b (L161) - Isles: 6803 BP (4800 BCE) - Britain - note: Early Neolithic in Britain (Long Barrows) from 4400 BCE
I2a2a (L69) - Dinaric all: 3427 BP (1400 BCE)
I2a2a Disles (Dinaric-type in Britain): 2985 BP (1000 BCE)
I2a2a Dinaric all: 2547 BP (550 BCE) - Eastern Europe
Dinaric North: 1706 BP (300 CE) - Slavic expansion from 500 CE
Dinaric South: 1761 BP (250 CE) - Slavic expansion from 500 CE

kamani
06-01-13, 04:27
by 1200BC which is th eperiod of the bronze-age migrations and the sea peoples, there where no illyrians anywhere near montenegro and the celts where sill in the alps

Romans claim descent from the trojans, so do the swedes, so do the slavs....
The romans are subjugated southern etruscans that broke free from the proper etruscans, the tiber river was always the noted as an etruscan river.....IIRC the etrucans border was with modern day campania region ( naples)
We have Urnfield which is proto-celtic, from 1250 BC, and then fully celtic Hallstat from 800 BC. The dates are still close. Also look at the R1b mutations flow, the parent M269* is always in the balkans or east.

Yetos
06-01-13, 05:01
We have Urnfield which is proto-celtic, from 1250 BC, and then fully celtic Hallstat from 800 BC. The dates are still close. Also look at the R1b mutations flow, the parent M269* is always in the balkans or east.

can you hold more trough mister 'twisting texts' ?

or you are gonna twist gennetics also? like with E-v13 which you make it Caucasian?

Don't you feel a a little bit shame at all?

you still believe that the theories they told in school or in your Nazi-parties is the truth?

Goga
06-01-13, 05:39
@ ElHorsto

As Islamic (Muslim) folks I believe that Albanians are heavily mixed with Turkic tribes. Albania is a small country with a little population (2 million is nothing), so it was very easy for the Turks to leave their DNA in the Albanian gene pool.

The Altai component in Albanians is most probably from recent times inherited form the Turks.

kamani
06-01-13, 08:55
ups, I got everybody scared of an R1b alliance now. Dont' worry guys, you can consider new ideas, the irish are not coming back in the balkans to revive the trojans or the thracians. We are just talking about what has happened, and in my book this is what has happened, and I don't let anybody bully me to shut my mouth.

@goga
yDNA and mDNA of albanians is no more simmilar with turkish that any of its neighbors. Albanians have been mostly christian until the 1800-s when the ottomans started a policy of forceful mass conversions. They're still 50% christian or agnostic today. And they were a country of 2 million who fought and beat the ottoman empire armies for 25 years (1444-1470), when they were at the peak of their power, while the rest of christian europe was having a good time in the west.

Yetos
06-01-13, 23:30
ups, I got everybody scared of an R1b alliance now. Dont' worry guys, you can consider new ideas, the irish are not coming back in the balkans to revive the trojans or the thracians. We are just talking about what has happened, and in my book this is what has happened, and I don't let anybody bully me to shut my mouth.

@goga
yDNA and mDNA of albanians is no more simmilar with turkish that any of its neighbors. Albanians have been mostly christian until the 1800-s when the ottomans started a policy of forceful mass conversions. They're still 50% christian or agnostic today. And they were a country of 2 million who fought and beat the ottoman empire armies for 25 years (1444-1470), when they were at the peak of their power, while the rest of christian europe was having a good time in the west.

Kamani

you are still twisting data

you believe that every body in the forum is stupid?
and you always give wrong data?

Albania is member of Islamic countries
together Albania with Kossovo and Tettovo have 75-85% muslim population (Including Bektash Muslims-Heresy)

Orthodox Christian in Albania south reach 6-12% (according where you put Greek minority 4-6%)
and Catholic in the North have 10% (spoted 30%)
jews are 3-4%

where you found that 50%? again from your mind?

the congress of Muslim countries gives other Data

@Kamani

Do You believe we are Idiot or Stupid?

Vallavan pasha was Ottoman? or Albanian from Mat?

Krujia was a civil war with help from Ottomans,

it was Kastriotis's 12-14 Families vs Vallavan pasha + Ottomans,

we are not Idiots in the forum
start giving correct Data and not after your possible theories.


Nobody want you to keep your mouth shut,
simply when you don't give correct data, you are twisting texts, you are twisting gennetics,you have twisted almost everything in your Posts.

Yetos
06-01-13, 23:54
@ ElHorsto

As Islamic (Muslim) folks I believe that Albanians are heavily mixed with Turkic tribes. Albania is a small country with a little population (2 million is nothing), so it was very easy for the Turks to leave their DNA in the Albanian gene pool.

The Altai component in Albanians is most probably from recent times inherited form the Turks.


It can be like that but I am more suspicious to medieval times, and Turkic population.

the story gives Ottoman away from Albania, except big cities , same as Greece, Serbia
Albania was not so much colonized by Ottomans, Neither Bosnia which is the other muslim Balkanic country

so I am suspicious more to medieval Turkic,
names like Anjou and Hunjades, more to Chans Huns Cumans, than Ottomans
Cumans were a Turkic tribe that settled Albania Fyrom Serbia Romania

that is why I ask el Horsto if that peak is spoted or general in population,

kamani
07-01-13, 03:05
These are the results of the 2011 national census in Albania. They were also shown on national television so I am not making them up.

minorities
24000 greeks
5500 macedonians

religion
58.79% muslims
10.3% catolic christian
6.75% orthodox christian
0.14% protestan christian
13.79% agnostic

And of those 58% that declared themselves muslim I doubt that even 5% are practicing muslims; the rest just say because that's what their families were before communism. Religion was banned in Albania for 50 years during communism. If you mentioned the word "muslim" or "christian" in public, you were put in jail for 10+ years.

And please don't try to belittle the monumental struggle of albanians against the ottoman occupation. The sultan himself came to the siege of Kruja in Skanderbeg times and he couldn't take it. The best turkish generals failed one by one against the albanian Skanderbeg. He was one of the first ones to ever beat the ottomans in europe, in a time when everybody else was getting scared and cutting deals with them.

Yetos
07-01-13, 03:50
These are the results of the 2011 national census in Albania. They were also shown on national television so I am not making them up.

minorities
24000 greeks
5500 macedonians

religion
58.79% muslims
10.3% catolic christian
6.75% orthodox christian
0.14% protestan christian
13.79% agnostic

And of those 58% that declared themselves muslim I doubt that even 5% are practicing muslims; the rest just say because that's what their families were before communism. Religion was banned in Albania for 50 years during communism. If you mentioned the word "muslim" or "christian" in public, you were put in jail for 10+ years.

And please don't try to belittle the monumental struggle of albanians against the ottoman occupation. The sultan himself came to the siege of Kruja in Skanderbeg times and he couldn't take it. The best turkish generals failed one by one against the albanian Skanderbeg. He was one of the first ones to ever beat the ottomans in europe, in a time when everybody else was getting scared and cutting deals with them.


I know about Hodza laws,

when I say 75-85% I input kossovo+tettovo,

even the καννων (Canun) law today is not in use.

almost not in use.


about Krujia I said

Kastriotis's 12-14 families vs Vallavan + Ottomans,

the bravery etc is another story away from thread and forum, and no need to be told I think, cause will take days, and out of Forum focusing.
with out offence against Kastrioti or Ottomans, but who cares,
the question is mainly the Altaic mark,

Do you believe is after Ottoman Turkish? or from central Europe Huns Cumans?

ty, for data almost simmilar I have with difference orthodox 13% including Greeks and Slavic Makedonians.

kamani
07-01-13, 05:51
The altaic in albanians is only 3-4% higher than expected (balkan 4.1%, albanian 7.9%). I am guessing not a lot of albanians have participated in this study, hence the "rough edges".

Finalise
07-01-13, 05:53
Albanians haven't mixed at all with the Turks. DNA was compared with Arbereshe (pre-Ottoman Albanians who escaped to Italy) and the only difference is Albanians today have higher J2B. And this has nothing to do with turks since Anatolians have J2A, and J2B is a native Balkanian haplogroup.

The 1% Egyptian component I'm assuming are the Jevg communities from North Africa, which came to Albania during Ottoman times. They are usually isolated communities, but with globalization they are being more and more integrated into Albanian society. Some of them have even forgotten about their roots and consider themselves ethnically Albanian.

The only Albanians that mixed with Turks are the ones that were sent over to Turkey, which there are about anywhere from 1-5 million Turkish people of partial Albanian ancestry.

It is retarded to assume people mixed simply because of religion. That is to say everyone in Europe who adops Catholicism is heavily mixed with Italians? Religion in Albania has always taken a backseat to nationalism.

The Albanian-Celtic connection has always intrigued me but Ive never made anything of it. The name Albania seems to be of Celtic Origin, and as mentioned Celtus and Illyrus were brothers in Greek mythology. But I honestly dont know enough of genetics/linguistics to make any claims.

Eldritch
07-01-13, 14:57
by 1200BC which is th eperiod of the bronze-age migrations and the sea peoples, there where no illyrians anywhere near montenegro and the celts where sill in the alps

Romans claim descent from the trojans, so do the swedes, so do the slavs....
The romans are subjugated southern etruscans that broke free from the proper etruscans, the tiber river was always the noted as an etruscan river.....IIRC the etrucans border was with modern day campania region ( naples)

read:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

KenN said
Another anomaly of the Montenegro I2a2a-Dinaric: it seems to have a lot of
448 = 18 and 389 = 14,32 haplotypes --- much more in fraction of total than
Eastern Europe I2a2a-Dinaric in general. Serbs don't seem to have it.

Illyrians are basically northern balkan people made up of 5 major tribes, Pannonians, Luburni, Dalmatian, Ardiaei and Autariatae

No Albanian marker found in the link

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3017/thaciansillyrians.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/thaciansillyrians.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


which below is the Albanian one?

I2a ancestor (P37.2+): 10.366 BP (8400 BCE)
I2a1 (M26+): 10.221 BP (8200 BCE) - this is the "Sardinian group" (plus in Iberia, France)
I2a (xI2a1): 8535 BP (6500 BCE) - Carcium Pottery Neolithic in the Mediterranean from around 5700 BCE
I2a3 (L233+) 4424 BP (2400 BCE) - Alps
I2a* France: 2892 BP (900 BCE) - France
I2a2 all ancestor (M423): 7009 BP (5000 BCE)
I2a2b (L161) - Isles: 6803 BP (4800 BCE) - Britain - note: Early Neolithic in Britain (Long Barrows) from 4400 BCE
I2a2a (L69) - Dinaric all: 3427 BP (1400 BCE)
I2a2a Disles (Dinaric-type in Britain): 2985 BP (1000 BCE)
I2a2a Dinaric all: 2547 BP (550 BCE) - Eastern Europe
Dinaric North: 1706 BP (300 CE) - Slavic expansion from 500 CE
Dinaric South: 1761 BP (250 CE) - Slavic expansion from 500 CE
Not again with this I2a1b thing, it has nothing to do with Illyrians.
It's a Slavic marker.

Templar
07-01-13, 15:37
Not again with this I2a1b thing, it has nothing to do with Illyrians.
It's a Slavic marker.

It isn't necessarily a Slavic marker. The areas that seem like the best candidates of the Slavic homeland, are mostly R1a and have low amounts of I2a. The areas with the highest amounts of I2a in the West Balkans are the mountainous parts (such as Herzegovina). The flat parts of Croatia for example have a higher frequency of R1a (which isn't exclusive a Slavic marker, but it tends to be the most common in Slavic populations), than the mountainous parts. Flat areas are better for farming, so ofcourse new conquerors (in this case Slavs) would mostly settle there, therefore the native population best survived in the mountains. And the typical phenotype of a person in high altitude parts of ex-Yugoslavia is Dinaric/Borreby. Long face, back of the head seems "cut-off", long legs, hairiness is common, extreme tallness, etc. And I know this from personal experience. In the flat areas of ex-Yugoslavia, people have the typical Slavic look, rounder faces, lighter eyes and hair, average height, etc.

How can I2a be Slavic when:
1) 70% of men in Herzegovina have it, and it is one of the most isolated parts of the Balkans
2) Russians, Poles, and other typical Slavs have it at a MUCH lower frequency (under 20%)
3) the obvious areas where Slavs would have settled in the Balkans have the typical high R1a frequency and low I2a frequency
4) The South Slav phenotype is completely different from the West and East Slav phenotype

Malsori
07-01-13, 15:46
It isn't necessarily a Slavic marker. The areas that seem like the best candidates of the Slavic homeland, are mostly R1a and have low amounts of I2a. The areas with the highest amounts of I2a in the West Balkans are the mountainous parts (such as Herzegovina). The flat parts of Croatia for example have a higher frequency of R1a (which isn't exclusive a Slavic marker, but it tends to be the most common in Slavic populations), than the mountainous parts. Flat areas are better for farming, so ofcourse new conquerors (in this case Slavs) would mostly settle there, therefore the native population best survived in the mountains. And the typical phenotype of a person in high altitude parts of ex-Yugoslavia is Dinaric/Borreby. Long face, back of the head seems "cut-off", long legs, hairiness is common, extreme tallness, etc. And I know this from personal experience. In the flat areas of ex-Yugoslavia, people have the typical Slavic look, rounder faces, lighter eyes and hair, average height, etc.

How can I2a be Slavic when:
1) 70% of men in Herzegovina have it, and it is one of the most isolated parts of the Balkans
2) Russians, Poles, and other typical Slavs have it at a MUCH lower frequency (under 20%)
3) the obvious areas where Slavs would have settled in the Balkans have the typical high R1a frequency and low I2a frequency
4) The South Slav phenotype is completely different from the West and East Slav phenotype

There is no I2a Y-DNA among South Slavs rather I2a2b-Dinaric cluster and the high percentage is due to founder effect since this haplogroup is maximum 2500-3000 years old. The highest diversity is found in Southern Ukraine( diversity is what matters not high percentages). It's the same story just as R1b became dominant among Western Europeans. And Eldritch has right, the possibility that this haplogroup came with Slavic migrations are rather quite strong if not 100% sure.

The only isolated people in Balkans are Kosovar Albanians and they almost lack this haplogroup. How come Balkan Slavs are isolated when they happen to speak a Slavic language lol. You Bosnians seems to suffer from extreme Illyrianism, moreso than Serbs. The only ones that support your ideal are outdated Igenea DNA tests. I think it is better for you guys to get over it.

p.s Seeing the 23andme, there is a lot of Ukrainians/Poles with this haplogroup lol.

Templar
07-01-13, 16:16
There is no I2a Y-DNA among South Slavs rather I2a2b-Dinaric cluster

I2a2b-Din is a subcluster of the greater I2a. The reason why I didn't write I2a2b-Dinaric is because it isn't the ONLY I2a haplogroup in the balkans.


and the high percentage is due to founder effect since this haplogroup is maximum 2500-3000 years old.

I've actually heard studies suggest that it is actually much older than that, plus there hasn't been a detailed analysis of it yet. I shall await when concrete data is available. So far, I think it is more likely that it is native.


The highest diversity is found in Southern Ukraine
Doesn't mean anything though. Ukraine was at the center of nomadic settlement. People would separate from there and move to other places. It was the site of expansion, and this would coincide with a lot of haplogroup diversity, as it does.


And Eldritch has right, the possibility that this haplogroup came with Slavic migrations are rather quite strong if not 100% sure.

The how do you explain the typical Slavic haplogroup R1a being found in parts where you would expect them to settle? Fertile plains are far better for farming than rugged dry mountains. Yet it is in these rugged mountains where R1a is extremely rare.


The only isolated people in Balkans are Kosovar Albanians and they almost lack this haplogroup. How come Balkan Slavs are isolated when they happen to speak a Slavic language lol. You Bosnians seems to suffer from extreme Illyrianism, moreso than Serbs. The only ones that support your ideal are outdated Igenea DNA tests. I think it is better for you guys to get over it.

If you are going to be rude, please refrain from further discussions with me.

Knovas
07-01-13, 16:29
The only isolated people in Balkans are Kosovar Albanians and they almost lack this haplogroup.
Having a different language compared to their neighbours, does not necessarily mean Kosovo Albanians are genetically isolated. Just check Goergians and Abkhasians, who don't even speak Indo-European, and their West Asian component is high as usual in the area. They do have their peculiarities concerning Y-DNA frequencies though, but this indicator is not reliable for the matter.

I am not saying what you say is wrong, maybe you manage other kind of information we lack. But according to what is publicly available right now, if I have to guess, the really isolated ones in the Balkans might be western Slovenians, next to the Northeast Italian border.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28268-New-population-isolates-identified-in-the-eastern-Italian-Alps

Malsori
07-01-13, 16:31
I2a2b-Din is a subcluster of the greater I2a. The reason why I didn't write I2a2b-Dinaric is because it isn't the ONLY I2a haplogroup in the balkans.

Yes, I2a2b-Din is the only subclade found in Balkans. I don't know what is matter with that. As i previously said: The same story happened in Western Europe. They don't have older R1b subclades. 99% of them carry some sort of R1b1b1a2...... deep clade.


I've actually heard studies suggest that it is actually much older than that, plus there hasn't been a detailed analysis of it yet. I shall await when concrete data is available. So far, I think it is more likely that it is native.

There is no studies which implies that. Unless you are generous enough to post them here.



Doesn't mean anything though. Ukraine was at the center of nomadic settlement. People would separate from there and move to other places. It was the site of expansion, and this would coincide with a lot of haplogroup diversity, as it does.

Yes, it does mean alot. Before the Nomadic expansion from Pontic-Caspian steppes there was Neolithic settlements in Ukraine/Romania borders. That of Cucuteni-Trypillia. But, that is beyond the point thought. We are dealing with a specific timeline and specific place. Nordvedt is the biggest professional geneticist who has studies Y-DNA I. The guy has spend a lot of time studying the subclades. I doubt he holds any grudge toward Balkan Slavs. In fact, i am amazed of how you guys are in denial of your Slavic ancestry. I am not saying you don't have Balkan-Illyrian ancestry. In fact you do have at considerable percentage but you totally dismiss your Slavic side which isn't minimal at all especially from Y-DNA point of view which seems to be dominant.


The how do you explain the typical Slavic haplogroup R1a being found in parts where you would expect them to settle? Fertile plains are far better for farming than rugged dry mountains. Yet it is in these rugged mountains where R1a is extremely rare.

R1a is not the whole story. There is R1a subclades which aren't Slavic but let say partial Proto Indo-European R1a1a-M17 and ironically Balkanites do carry at some percentage that particular R1a1a subclade although not at high percentage. That subclade might predate Slavic migrations. And, you just keep inventing things with this regional stuffs. I bet you have nothing to back off your claims. Keep in mind I2a2b(Din) is found at some percentages among Southern Albanians. From historical sources we do know there was some concentrated Slavic settlements there. Also, it is more high among Northern Greeks and almost none among Peloponessian and Islander Greeks.



If you are going to be rude, please refrain from further discussions with me.

I am not rude to you. I haven't insulted you.

Malsori
07-01-13, 16:50
Having a different language compared to their neighbours, does not necessarily mean Kosovo Albanians are genetically isolated. Just check Goergians and Abkhasians, who don't even speak Indo-European, and their West Asian component is high as usual in the area. They do have their peculiarities concerning Y-DNA frequencies though, but this indicator is not reliable for the matter.

I think Dienekes has explained quite well that West_Asian doesn't equal Proto Indo-European since there were non Indo-European speaking populations that carried this component. In fact, today this component peaks among non IE speaking populations. According to Dienekes assumption the West Asian equals PIE only in Europe and India with the Ancestral Northern Indian(ANI).

Besides that, his assumption is not a scientific theory. The Proto Indo-European question is still open for debate. You should not forget the Etruscan and Pelasgian migration from Anatolia which could also be source for this West-Asian.



I am not saying what you say is wrong, maybe you manage other kind of information we lack. But according to what is publicly available right now, if I have to guess, the really isolated ones in the Balkans might be western Slovenians, next to the Northeast Italian border.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28268-New-population-isolates-identified-in-the-eastern-Italian-Alps

And, i didn't mean genetically isolated in the Sardinian or Basque fashion since Kosovars are not so isolated but moreso than other Balkanites.

Check out this abstract of 2012 paper.


Contemporary inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula belong to several ethnic groups of diverse cultural backgrounds. In this study, three ethnic groups from Bosnia and Herzegovina - Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs - and four other Slavic-speaking Western Balkan populations: Serbians, Croatians, Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia, Montenegrins, and Albanian-speaking Kosovars have been characterized for the genetic variation of 660 000 autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms. Genetic structuring of Western Balkan populations has been analyzed in a global context. Comparison of the variation within autosomal and haploid data sets of studied Western Balkan populations revealed their genetic closeness regardless of a genetic system inspected, in particular among the Slavic speakers. Hence, culturally diverse Western Balkan populations are genetically very similar to each other. Only the Kosovars show slight differences both in the variance of autosomal and uniparentally inherited markers from the other populations of the region, possibly also due to their historically strict patrilineality. In a more general perspective, our results reveal clear genetic continuity between the Near Eastern and European populations, lending further credence to extensive, likely multiple and possibly bidirectional ancient gene flows between the Near East and Europe, cutting through the Balkans.


http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f120120711.htm

Templar
07-01-13, 17:02
You Bosnians seems to suffer from extreme Illyrianism, moreso than Serbs. The only ones that support your ideal are outdated Igenea DNA tests. I think it is better for you guys to get over it.

That is very rude. We don't suffer from anything, and if you ask anyone it is usually Albanians that have odd theories.


Yes, it does mean alot. Before the Nomadic expansion from Pontic-Caspian steppes there was Neolithic settlements in Ukraine/Romania borders. That of Cucuteni-Trypillia

Yes I am aware of the Cucuteni-Trypillia, and you should have been more specific regarding "Ukraine" having more subclades than the West Balkans. The Cucuteni-Trypillia was much more concentrated in Romania and Moldova, rather than Ukraine. Did Slavs which passed by this area pick up a lot of people from that area? Probably. Did some of the haplogroup I in the West Balkans come with these Slavs? Probably. But to say that all of it came with them, and that it is a "Slavic" marker is ridiculous. The Cucuteni-Trypillia people were likely a mix of paleolithic people who took up farming and new neolithic migrants from the near east. Their phenotype was similar to that of other people in the Balkans.

My point is that I2a2b(Din) did not come from a far-flung steppe, it has always been in the Balkans. The I haplogroup diversity further justifies my claims, doesn't hurt them. And you aren't at all adressing the differences between South Slavs and other Slavs in terms of appearance.


R1a is not the whole story. There is R1a subclades which aren't Slavic but let say partial Proto Indo-European R1a1a-M17

I already wrote that R1a wasn't exclusively Slavic, but I explained that it is nonetheless most often found in Slavic populations.

Yetos
07-01-13, 17:03
It isn't necessarily a Slavic marker. The areas that seem like the best candidates of the Slavic homeland, are mostly R1a and have low amounts of I2a. The areas with the highest amounts of I2a in the West Balkans are the mountainous parts (such as Herzegovina). The flat parts of Croatia for example have a higher frequency of R1a (which isn't exclusive a Slavic marker, but it tends to be the most common in Slavic populations), than the mountainous parts. Flat areas are better for farming, so ofcourse new conquerors (in this case Slavs) would mostly settle there, therefore the native population best survived in the mountains. And the typical phenotype of a person in high altitude parts of ex-Yugoslavia is Dinaric/Borreby. Long face, back of the head seems "cut-off", long legs, hairiness is common, extreme tallness, etc. And I know this from personal experience. In the flat areas of ex-Yugoslavia, people have the typical Slavic look, rounder faces, lighter eyes and hair, average height, etc.

How can I2a be Slavic when:
1) 70% of men in Herzegovina have it, and it is one of the most isolated parts of the Balkans
2) Russians, Poles, and other typical Slavs have it at a MUCH lower frequency (under 20%)
3) the obvious areas where Slavs would have settled in the Balkans have the typical high R1a frequency and low I2a frequency
4) The South Slav phenotype is completely different from the West and East Slav phenotype


R1a in Balkans except Croatia is very low rest except Greece.

so how come Ra is Slavic marker when Serbia bosnia bulgaria have lower than Greece?
so Slav people enter south of danube creating 5 countries and many linguistic groups to become Greek speakers at the end?
same with Goths,

generally R1a is not a Slavic marker. some sub- maybe,

on the other hand I2a2 Din today I2a1b seems to enter from above Danube and in time simmilar to Slav expansion south of Danube,
so I2a1b seems more as Slavic marker than R1a,

besides the case has been discussed in a special thread about that HG.

I mean leaving outside Hrvati how come Greece has bigger R1a than Serbia Bosnia Bulgaria Romania (Severi passage)?
on the other hand the big consentration of I in Serbo-Bosnia and in fyrom feats more with pre-Dusan and after Dusan kingdoms.

I think that R1a in balkans is at least 5500 years old, or Balkans is the motherland of R1a due to the plural of varities, yet macciamo belives is a sink phenomena.

Templar
07-01-13, 17:10
R1a in Balkans except Croatia is very low rest except Greece.

so how come Ra is Slavic marker when Serbia bosnia bulgaria have lower than Greece?
so Slav people enter south of danube creating 5 countries and many linguistic groups to become Greek speakers at the end?
same with Goths,

generally R1a is not a Slavic marker. some sub- maybe,

on the other hand I2a2 Din today I2a1b seems to enter from above Danube and in time simmilar to Slav expansion south of Danube,
so I2a1b seems more as Slavic marker than R1a,

besides the case has been discussed in a special thread about that HG.

Some "Slavs" did bring it, but they were mixed with populations in Romania before they spread elsewhere. Romania still has a fairly high frequency of haplogroup I, and it is diverse (and probably dates back to the neolithic). My point is that it has always been in the Balkans, Slavs only spread it more Southwards. Do you really believe that the original Slavs in Russia and Poland had it? That makes no sense, Paleolithic Europeans only survived in places where they could blend and get new technology from neolithic farmers. We see this in the Balkans, Sardinia, Iberia, etc. The only exception I guess would be Germanic people, but that might have been due to isolation in the far North. In Eastern Europea the steppe people would have absolutely destroyed Paleolithic Europeans, because they were still hunter-gatherers there. But in the Balkans, neolithic near eastern technology ensured that they survived and had a decent population.

Knovas
07-01-13, 17:23
@Malsori

What Dienekes' said, is that IE was probably linked to West Asia, even if the ones who have the highest peak are non-IE speakers. And more recently, when analyzing Daniel MacArthur's genome (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/12/on-south-asian-ancestry-of-daniel.html), he observed that sometimes admixture interprets West Asian and South Asian randomly, since the tools aren't obviously perfect. And the same is surely valid for North Indian or Gedrosian components due to higher overlap. Specially low percents regarding the mentioned ones, are common in the different analysis and don't look particularly informative.

Anyways, that wasn't my point. I assumed you were refering to isolation in the proper terms, now I see what you meant.

Taranis
14-01-13, 23:29
Frankly, I don't know where to start. How about this: I have moved the vast amount of offtopic discussions, which had preciously little to do with the original thread topic, to here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28299-(OFFTOPIC-from-rise-of-PIEs-in-the-steppes)). You can continue your discussions there, but please, mind your manners.