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Robert22
05-10-12, 20:25
So i learned recently on this forum that Celts actually come from Iberia rather than central europe.
Does this mean that celts were raher dark featured people ? but why are celts mostly discribed by romans as having milk white skin ? this doesnt suit with spanish people, but then again nor does it suit austtrian people for example, i rarely see people with very fair skimaybe it was just a exageration.
milk white skin would mean something like this: http://blockyourid.com/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/82who_8.jpg
http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons/247/2473279/47_2008/0beef4fd9139d289_pales.jpg

especially considering celts coming from Iberia, such fair skin seems rather absurd. Even in Austria, i never see people with such fair skin...

I think they were darker, brown eyes being most common aswell as dark brown or light brown hair, for the romans light brown hair might seem blonde. also gauls were said to bleach their hairs. so maybe celts were indeed rather dark haired.
Also since celts now did not come from Central europe, what people lived there before the celts came ? and how large was the celtic impact ? were they more just influencing their language and acting as the upper class, or where the pre celtic population totally replaced by celts ? And what were they like ? Maybe mainly alpinids ?
But then the question is, why are all modern celtic people very fair if they actually came from a country were rather dark featured people would be more common ?

MOESAN
05-10-12, 23:28
1- Celts coming from Iberia ("now"): the question is still without any sure answer, but it seams very unlikely; a cradle between Eastern or Southeastern France and Switzerland Bavaria appears to me more sensible, even if I 'm not sure -
2- coming OR PASSING THROUGH Iberia doesn't guarantee a dark complexion...
3- I agree that for southerners, light and even MIDDLE brown is a kind or "blond" (I check that more than a time) - and yet, the Italics gentry of Roman times was lighter than the present day central and southern Italians as a whole, and they knew red hairs too!

but we have skeletons, we have modern metrics means, we have modern pigmentation: I say: the historical Iron Age Celts was middle coloured haired for the most, middle and very fair skinned as a whole ('reds' skins more than 'blonds' skins), and middle and fair eyed as a majority not excluding darks ones - maybe the first (eventually true) Celts of France was more on the dark side BUT NEVER totally dark pigmented - and the desiquilibrium between hair on a side and skin+eyes on the other side seams having perdured to our times, even in the darker groups of Celts if you read some of my posts (example: differences in SW and SE Germany, breton pigmentation) - even in France today, except the N and E regions, the peasants and rural people as a whole show less true dark eyes than the towns people, and more light eyes and skins, except some old mediterranean refuges as Corsica and some southern cantons of provence and Pyreness and Aquitaine (towns: imigrees? different generations of southern merchants since the dawn of History? Romans? ancient Jews? Italians at diverse periods since Louis XIV?

Robert22
05-10-12, 23:51
But why do you think it is unlikely, at the moment everything seems to indicate they were actually from Iberia.
well, so what would your average celt (Gaul) be like ? can you post a picture of what you think ?
what is the average eye and hair colour of modern celtic regions in central franc ?
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/france_races.jpg


I also dont think of celts as being as dark as modern spanish people, but i am sure they were darker on average than Germanic people. The picture of the dark and black haired gaul might is a especially dark one.

oriental
05-10-12, 23:56
The tribes which were a part of the Sea Peoples are possibly the Philistines, Thracians, Etruscans, Tyrrhenians, Mysians, Lycians, Ionians, Colchians, Lybians and Danes[1] (http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=campaign_sea_peoples#reference_list_1)

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=campaign_sea_peoples

Sorry wrong thread!

Robert22
06-10-12, 00:03
oh and, i never was in france so icant really say, what people are there like, but i guess french people are darker than germans ? maybe not northern french, who also have germanic influences but even central french (auvergne for example) people are darker than germans or austrians i think.

Taranis
06-10-12, 14:28
What does "Celts" mean for you, how do you define the term? And what has skin color to do with it?

Robert22
06-10-12, 15:52
I am primarly interested in central european celts, i thought celts from those regions. But if the really come from Iberia, i would guess they were also darker than generally thought.

Taranis
06-10-12, 16:04
I am primarly interested in central european celts, i thought celts from those regions. But if the really come from Iberia, i would guess they were also darker than generally thought.

As I said, how do you define who or what a "Celt" is? Linguistically? Culturally? Archaeologically? None of these have by themselves anything to do with outward appearance, hence asking for it is in my opinion superfluous. The same applies for the hypothesis that the "Celts" came from Iberia - if you do not define what a Celt is, it's irrelevant if that statement is right or wrong.

I would like to apologize if I may come about as a bit nitpicky in this discussion, but I think it would be important to address the above.

Robert22
06-10-12, 17:37
well i dont know, it seems celts were rather a linguistic/cultural group rather than true ethnicy, atleast thats what many others here say.

MOESAN
07-10-12, 22:09
I think this thread is running after its tail!
1- Celt is primarily a linguistic concept
2- speaking celtic was being part of a society, a culture, all turning up finally into an ethny
3- surely the Celtic speaking society evolved physically along with time
4- if we want to speak about Celts look without loosing all our time we have to define the place and the time -
present days rural people are roughly a mix of kinds of Basques with mesolithic few remnants, i believe, and Celts and early celtized people (ex Ligurians among them?) with a taste or diverses Roman and romanized people and a big taste of Germans, according to the regions - the cities of France are a mix of every kind of European plus extra-European people, no value concerning the past, then - never was Gallia people 100% celtic in 100% of the places -
5- I'm tired focalizing about this only aspect of "celticity" - (I made some answers yet, and have no more to say) - good luck -

Robert22
08-10-12, 19:55
and that means for central european celts what ? I doubt there were basques in those regions, i heard there were illyrians though before the celts came. maybe raetians too

julia90
08-10-12, 23:35
So i learned recently on this forum that Celts actually come from Iberia rather than central europe.


No, no, and not. Celts came from central europe (and from there they arrived maybe from Ukraine, and from there they came from around india, given the fact they are INDO-europeans, and the ancient languages of spain are non-indoeuropean), then from there they spreaded to iberia via france as well, but as well as romania, ukraine, czech republic, bulgaria, northern italy, and half of europe pratically, how on earth could they come from the southern-west end of europe, and from there spread also till anatolia?

dark hair aren't a preogative of people living in southern europe, pratically 90% of the world population has balck hair, blonde hair are only the majority in some parts of northern europe, and celts with dark hair have different facial features then pre-celt non indoeuropean iberians etc, or even precelts people from the british isles.. just as well as italians and chineses are different people, but have both majority of dark hair

MOESAN
09-10-12, 14:07
and that means for central european celts what ? I doubt there were basques in those regions, i heard there were illyrians though before the celts came. maybe raetians too

I answered for France to other posts - I mean: the present day French people are variated and have undergone History after the Celts, in diverse ways according to the region! AND WHO EVER SAID THAT EVEN "PURE" LATENE CELTS WAS COMPLETELY LIKE THE GERMANICS??? read all the posts and someones about pigmentation and form, it can help -

Robert22
09-10-12, 15:03
uhh where did i ever say celts were like germanics.

Robert22
09-10-12, 17:01
Also, why do you guys think the Iberian theory is wrong ? as to why they spread to anatolia, it makes no difference at all, wheater celts are from central europe or iberia to spreas to anatolia, people tend to migrate, and if they come from iberia or central europe doesnt have to do anythign with that.
I am no expert, not at all. so my theories are not true, but it is what i am thinking could be possible.
when i look at it, migration from iberia seems plausible. Celts never were that dominant in Central europe, there were raetians, there were pannonians, there were illyrians, if the celts managed to get whole of france, britain under their control, then why is central europe not totally dominated by celts ?
However it seems more likely at the moment, they came from iberia, some spread over to the british isles, others wandered eastwards to modern france and austria and southern germany and others remained in Iberia. I am not saying celts were like typicall spaniards or as dark as them, but i am thinking they were darker than we used to imagine them, atleast those celts in Iberia, the other celts had other influences aswell so the celts from Gaul, even though speaking a related language, might not look like the celts from Iberia. Lot of scientists also agree with the iberian theory, so saying NO ! it is false because they are from Central europe, is a bit ignorant, especially if most evidence points to a iberian heritage, atleast at the moment we should not the

julia90
09-10-12, 19:15
No, the people of ancient iberia, were all non idoeuropeans, even the basque, the only indo-europeans in spain arrived later with the celtic migrations from central europe..
But the ethnogenesis of the celts isn't in spain.. it's in central europe.

The ethogenesis of the first inhabitants of spain the iberians is different, if you say celts=iberians than sardineans are the most celtics on heart, cause the have the highest west-med or otzi like components on heart, the first inhabitants of europe were otzi like, so in many places of northern europe remains some pockets of otzi like looking people, but those otzi like were non-indoeuropeans, while celts are indo-europeans so they are a whole different people

ebAmerican
09-10-12, 19:22
Like Taranis said skin color is superfluous. European admixture over 2000 years has changed the ancient pigmentation map of Europe. Caesar does describe some tribes in Britain as swarthy like the Iberians. So, we could conclude that Iberians were darker than what Caesar was use to at home. The Carthaginians did have a great influence on southern Spain, and they were of North African and Levant ancestry. I don't know the genetics, but maybe they had a play in darkening the indigenous inhabitants who were a lighter skinned Celtic/Iberian group. Portugal and Brittany had trade relations with western England, so the swarthy Brits described by Caesar could be admixed with Carthaginians. A Carthaginian merchant takes an Iberian wife and has kids who are both dark, then the daughter is married off to a local Iberian man passing the gene for darker hair and skin but keeping the Iberian Ydna and mtdna. The Carthaginian/Iberian sons are sent back to North Africa to be trained as merchants and soldiers. Just one scenario.

Taranis
09-10-12, 19:58
My personal opinion, and I genuinely hope that I do not offend anybody with this, why do you even attempt to discuss phenotypical features in this context? The concept "Celt" is primarily a linguistic - by extension cultural concept, and if we talk about phenotypical features we very quickly end up going back to 19th century race theories and outdated (and in my opinion, quite dangerous) concepts of race, blood line and nationality. I'd like to reiterate that I'm not accusing anybody of anything here, but I'd like to give you a reminder that you're on the false track here.


Also, why do you guys think the Iberian theory is wrong ?

First off, I have to say that I am by no means supporting the traditional Central European (that is, Hallstatt/La-Téne) scenario (though I don't think it to be completely wrong either), but I do not consider the Atlantic hypothesis to be correct either (which does not mean that it makes a valid point):

- if you look at the expansion patterns of the Hallstatt and La-Téne cultures, it's clear that they only peripherically intrude into Iberian (the former) and Ireland (the latter). However, by the time the Romans showed up in Iberia, much of the peninsula is firmly Celtic or otherwise Indo-European (well, the Romans obviously never conquered Ireland, but as far as we know, it was wholly Celtic by the times the Romans took Britain). The Atlantic hypothesis thus (correctly) points out that the traditional model cannot explain this.

- I find that it stretches the imagination to assume that the Proto-Celts arrived directly from Pontic-Caspian region, possibly via a maritime route, directly in the west of the Iberian peninsula and then colonized half of Europe from there.


as to why they spread to anatolia, it makes no difference at all, wheater celts are from central europe or iberia to spreas to anatolia, people tend to migrate, and if they come from iberia or central europe doesnt have to do anythign with that.
I am no expert, not at all. so my theories are not true, but it is what i am thinking could be possible.

- one of the greatest objections against the hypothesis (in my opinion) is that there is no such migration (or more broadly, spread pattern) from Iberia to Central Europe (Beaker-Bell, perhaps? but this is also debatable). What we do see happening instead is that we have a multitude of archaeological cultures from Central Europe successively spread from Central Europe (Urnfield, Hallstatt, La-Tene), with more or less peripherial effects. At the same time, we also have an expansion from Central Europe towards the east.

- the problems with Beaker-Bell (who are otherwise a good candidate for cultural and/or demic movements) are several: the first is it's relative ancientness and also it's vast extend (southern Scandinavia, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, North Africa - areas which certainly never were Celtic, and the latter wasn't even Indo-European until the Romans showed up!). The second is a genetic argument: if we correlate R1b with the expansion of the Beaker-Bell culture (Y-Haplogroup R1b is one of the best arguments for a major demic movement), the distribution pattern of R1b subclades in Western Europe is non-consistent with an Iberian origin.


when i look at it, migration from iberia seems plausible. Celts never were that dominant in Central europe, there were raetians, there were pannonians, there were illyrians, if the celts managed to get whole of france, britain under their control, then why is central europe not totally dominated by celts ?

If you look at what happens in the archaeological context, and also what Greek and Roman writers have to say on the topic, it's clear that Celtic presence in Central Europe was declining from the 3rd century BC onward, principally from the double pressure of the expansion of the Romans and the Germanic tribes. If you however say "okay, the Celts just expanded into this region, it was never heavily Celtic in the first place" you end up with an insolvable problem: if Hallstatt was supposedly not Celtic, what else was it? Amusingly, even the authors who firmly support the Atlantic model (e.g. Koch, ODonnell) dodge exactly that question.


However it seems more likely at the moment, they came from iberia, some spread over to the british isles, others wandered eastwards to modern france and austria and southern germany and others remained in Iberia.

- In other threads, I've posted the map of continental Celtic place names by Falileleyev (http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/282/FalileyevMap.pdf?sequence=12) of the university of Cardiff here on Eupedia a couple of times, which is very good in illustrating another key problem with the Iberian origin: Celtic place names in Iberia show a clear northwest (highest) - southeast (lowest) gradient. If Iberia is the original Celtic homeland, why are place names so rare in the south and east? To me, it looks more that Celtic languages were introduced from the north by a maritime route. We do (potentially, anyways) have a mechanism for explaining such a spread pattern - the Atlantic Bronze Age trade networks that linked Iberia, Armorica and the British Isles, but we need to reverse the spread direction.

- If the proponents of the Atlantic hypothesis come up with reasonable arguments against the objections above, then hooray, but until then it'd be cautious and keep an open eye. People shouldn't view the problem as black and white (that is either Iberia or Central Europe). It could be that both hypotheses are actually (to certain degrees) right or wrong at the same time.

- As a last word, I might add that an Iberian (or more broadly Atlantic) origin is actually much more compatible with the Anatolian Hypothesis (as opposed to the Kurgan model), because in it's context, it stands to argue that the Neolithic societies of the Megalithic builders must have indeed been speakers of Proto-Celtic. But this point is pretty moot because there are so many inconsistencies in the Anatolian Hypothesis itself that I find more likely to assume that it's simply wrong.

Robert22
09-10-12, 19:59
@ julia: i do not say celts are not indo europeans, they are Indo europeans. their ancestors came from the caucasus and settled in Iberia, and later they migrated eastwards. but proofs are rare, at the moment no one can say what is true, unfortunatly it is a mystery.
Celts, why must you be so mysterious lol we know where the germanic people come from, we know where slavs come from, but not the origin of the celts, however a central european origin also seems plausible now, i am not sure. Also i am sure hallstatt is celtic, but the pre hallstatt people were not celts, and maybe the celts from iberia brought their language there.

julia90
09-10-12, 20:35
@ julia: i do not say celts are not indo europeans, they are Indo europeans. their ancestors came from the caucasus and settled in Iberia, and later they migrated eastwards.

it's the contrary, celts arrived from eastwards settled in central europe and migrated westwards.. what you said instead it's unlikely, they arrived eastwards, then from nowhere they appeared in spain, and from there they re-emigrated again eastwards.. very improbable.

Spain is a close end bottle at the very fringe of europe.. while the celtics expansion cover almost all of europe.. switzerland-southeastfrance-sothwest germany it's more of an easier crossroads for people to acced in nearly all corners of europe like celts did

Robert22
09-10-12, 20:40
not out of the nowhere, they were indoeuropeans and settled in Iberia, just like germanic people settled in scandinavia and migrated southwards.
also the map taranis posted, i dont know, it is all very confusing, i am not not sure which theory to beliefe, central european origin or iberian.

julia90
09-10-12, 20:48
just like germanic people settled in scandinavia and migrated southwards.

and infact their ethnogenesis is in scandinavia not germany; like the celtic formation is in central europe and not in spain

Robert22
09-10-12, 20:55
well if it would be that clear.. then uhh why are some guys even believing in the iberian theory then ? I am sure they have a reason for that. and you cant totally throw away the iberian theory, it might is true. and infact, it is new to me that central europeans are celtic, they are mainly germanic.

source: Macamaio
Most celtic countries of europe:

1.Ireland : about 75% of Y-DNA
2.Spain & Wales : about 70%
3.Scotland : about 65%
4.France & Portugal : about 55%
5.Italy : about 40%
6.Switzerland, Belgium & England : about 35%
7.Germany : about 25%
8.Netherlands & Denmark : about 20%

Switzerland reaches 35% so lets say on average central europe has about 30%. spain still has lot more of celtic DNA.

julia90
09-10-12, 21:35
well if it would be that clear.. then uhh why are some guys even believing in the iberian theory then ? I am sure they have a reason for that. and you cant totally throw away the iberian theory, it might is true. and infact, it is new to me that central europeans are celtic, they are mainly germanic.

source: Macamaio
Most celtic countries of europe:

1.Ireland : about 75% of Y-DNA
2.Spain & Wales : about 70%
3.Scotland : about 65%
4.France & Portugal : about 55%
5.Italy : about 40%
6.Switzerland, Belgium & England : about 35%
7.Germany : about 25%
8.Netherlands & Denmark : about 20%

Switzerland reaches 35% so lets say on average central europe has about 30%. spain still has lot more of celtic DNA.

R1b is only a single insignificant portion of autosomal dna, and it's sujected to founder effects etc..

infact france and scotland are way more celtic than spain lol

Cambrius (The Red)
09-10-12, 22:30
R1b is only a single insignificant portion of autosomal dna, and it's sujected to founder effects etc..

infact france and scotland are way more celtic than spain lol

How so? Do you know there are several Celtic markers and RL-21 (found primarily in the British Isles) is just the most recent mutation. You seem to want to diminish Celticity in Iberia. Why? Iberia was 75% Celtic at high point. Do some research and take off the blinders.

Cambrius (The Red)
09-10-12, 22:37
it's the contrary, celts arrived from eastwards settled in central europe and migrated westwards.. what you said instead it's unlikely, they arrived eastwards, then from nowhere they appeared in spain, and from there they re-emigrated again eastwards.. very improbable.

Spain is a close end bottle at the very fringe of europe.. while the celtics expansion cover almost all of europe.. switzerland-southeastfrance-sothwest germany it's more of an easier crossroads for people to acced in nearly all corners of europe like celts did

You are becoming borderline ridiculous. It is exceedingly obvious you have a severe problem with Iberian Celticity. LMAO!! Read the research on Tartessian and the latest Celtic studies as regards Iberia. Also, carefully read what Taranis wrote.

julia90
09-10-12, 22:53
How so? Do you know there are several Celtic markers and RL-21 (found primarily in the British Isles) is just the most recent mutation. You seem to want to diminish Celticity in Iberia. Why? Iberia was 75% Celtic at high point. Do some research and take off the blinders.

And?, i've never denied celts arrived in spain, but the thing i deny is that they origin is in spain and not in central europe; it's false that they originated in spain, while it's true they migrated in spain from central europe.

Cambrius (The Red)
09-10-12, 23:10
Read what Taranis wrote. It is more likely that TWO centers of Celticity existed, Central Europe and Iberia / Atlantic facade. It's well known that there was extensive commercial and social exchange in Atlantic Europe during the Bronze Age and Celtic likely developed in the region as a lingua franca.

julia90
09-10-12, 23:20
Read what Taranis wrote. It is more likely that TWO centers of Celticity existed, Central Europe and Iberia / Atlantic facade. It's well known that there was extensive commercial and social exchange in Atlantic Europe during the Bronze Age and Celtic likely developed in the region as a lingua franca.

indeed, this is true, celts spreaded from la tene to france, from there to spain and the british isles, and from the british isles and the french shores again via maritime contact to spain.

But the original homelands of the celts, and the pace from which they departed in all europe coprised france the british isles and spain is in La tene area

Cambrius (The Red)
10-10-12, 02:20
indeed, this is true, celts spreaded from la tene to france, from there to spain and the british isles, and from the british isles and the french shores again via maritime contact to spain.

But the original homelands of the celts, and the pace from which they departed in all europe coprised france the british isles and spain is in La tene area

Wrong. You are relying on theories that no longer can be buttressed satisfactorily. The latest evidence shows there were likely two areas of Celticity: the Atlantic Facade and Central Europe. Tartessian (SW Iberia Script) is the oldest attested Celtic language, older than Lepontic. So how can you assert that Central Europe was THE origination point for Celticity? Talk to the people at the University of Wales...

zanipolo
10-10-12, 10:33
I do not believe the celts in central europe where germanic at all, they where the Vindelici tribe ( which the invading Germans named wends, after the windo river which the Vindelici where named). These vindelici created la tene culture and they where related to the rhaetian who where also related to the Venetics and illyrians of Noricum. It makes no sense to exclude the Illyrians of the halstatt area in this celtic sphere of influence.

If the Vindelici where originally a gallic people, then the migration from west to east took place in the bronze age.

The Iberian celtic branch from what I read came from cantabria to eastern galicia areas. I think IIRC the term was franco-cantabria.

I do not know who was first , central E or Iberia or one came from the other.

zanipolo
10-10-12, 10:35
Wrong. You are relying on theories that no longer can be buttressed satisfactorily. The latest evidence shows there were likely two areas of Celticity: the Atlantic Facade and Central Europe. Tartessian (SW Iberia Script) is the oldest attested Celtic language, older than Lepontic. So how can you assert that Central Europe was THE origination point for Celticity? Talk to the people at the University of Wales...

you sure Tartessian was not originally phoenician in origin?

L.D.Brousse
10-10-12, 12:06
What is a Celtic Haplotype? I'm SRY2627+ Some have said France has the most variations of it so this mutation maybe a true native of France but it is also found in Spain and the UK Being Celtic to me is a way of life adapted by many different ethnic groups

julia90
10-10-12, 15:40
Yeah right Celts were originally from the Gibilterra strait a place with few solar irradiance that even north africans from near the strait must have porcelain skin and blue yes.. Yep celts didn't arrive from central europe Yep the world is really up down in central europe they have Much solar irradiance... Big lol and fail

Robert22
10-10-12, 17:30
i dont get what you mean with that. who says celts had porcellance skin and blue eyes ? thats just your theory, not solid in proofs, celts more likely were darker than we imagined, and atleast darker than germanic people.
Also if your are assuming all central europeans have porcellan white skin and blue eyes, you are jsut wrong, this is absolutly not true.

Cambrius (The Red)
10-10-12, 21:19
Not at all. The closest connections are to Old Irish and Gaulish, although the alphabet was Phoenician influenced. Look up the latest research. There is an updated bibliography under Tartessian Language WIKI.

Cambrius (The Red)
10-10-12, 21:23
Yeah right Celts were originally from the Gibilterra strait a place with few solar irradiance that even north africans from near the strait must have porcelain skin and blue yes.. Yep celts didn't arrive from central europe Yep the world is really up down in central europe they have Much solar irradiance... Big lol and fail

You have serious problems, Julia. Your denial of the latest scientific facts is quite laughable. The circus left town, so why aren't you with their caravan? LMAO!!!

Cambrius (The Red)
10-10-12, 21:25
And?, i've never denied celts arrived in spain, but the thing i deny is that they origin is in spain and not in central europe; it's false that they originated in spain, while it's true they migrated in spain from central europe.

Are you thick!? Celticity is primarily cultural and the evidence points to TWO Celtic homelands, Iberia with extension throughout the Atlantic facade, and Central Europe.

julia90
10-10-12, 22:38
Yes, central european have considerabile Paler skin than even northern italians and more so of southern italians just as italiana have Paler skin than north africans.. The Celts were Paler skinned than romans you find it in the roman literatue too. Pre celtic people of spain weren't Paler skinned than romans.. So Celts wern' t originally from there and absolutely not from gibiltar! which is more considerably more southern in latitude then rome, but of northern latitudes than rome

julia90
10-10-12, 22:44
Are you thick!? Celticity is primarily cultural and the evidence points to TWO Celtic homelands, Iberia with extension throughout the Atlantic facade, and Central Europe. no would you call yourself roman because you speak a latin derived language? Would you call colombians spaniard? No, celticity is not about culture but it s associated with Common looks mostly

ebAmerican
10-10-12, 23:13
There is considerable linguistic data that points to Venetic and Illyrian as possible Italic languages. North and West of these languages you have Rhatien and Etruscan. I am a supporter of the Celtic language originating somewhere along the Atlantic Facade, possibly Spain. I believe Barry Cunliffe and John Koch's Celtic from the West proposal. The La Tene culture was a hybrid Atlantic/Hallstatt culture. Hallstatt never spoke celtic, but an Italic, Venetic, Rhatien or Illyrian language similar to what is proposed for the nordwestblock language, but did influence what La Tene would become (orientalizing from Hellenic influence). Tartessian is the earliest attested Celtic language at 850bc according to John Koch. I believe in the areal proximity of Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic, the first originating on the Atlantic Facade and the second originating in South Central Europe from a PIE dialect and having close contact for a long time. I don't believe in a proto italo-celtic language.

julia90
11-10-12, 00:20
well from now i belive north africans are celts.. people look at where tartesso is lokated!.. there is an only explanation, celts came from continental central europe, and at the early stage they migrated in what was tartesso, but their primaly celtic origin isn't at that latitude! °__°.. long time adaption to that latitude doesn't produce porcelain skin and blue eyes!... or otherwise celts were like sardineans who are pre-indoeuropean people that lived at around those latitudes and even more northern latitudes!!.. then scots and irish should look like sardineans .. wich is not the case
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Tartessos.png


now tell me does someone with hugh laurie look could have evolved for a long time at that latitude? or more reasonably people like hugh laurie evolved long time at more northern latitudes, and then at an early stage migrated in tartesso? wich is the more reasonable? i say people like him evolved at much more northern latitues for long time and then they migrated in tartesso
http://imworld.aufeminin.com/dossiers/D20100302/Hugh-Laurie-Marcocchi-Giulio-Sipa-191732_L.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Q6LFPIflQE/TTXiEXhQCNI/AAAAAAAAMn8/3morSq792_Q/s1600/569.George%2BOrwell-711959.jpg
http://www.atuttascuola.it/TESINE/psicanalisi/james_joyce_file/image001.jpg


their closer north africans neighbour, people who have long time adapted to around those latitudes, a bit more southern tunisians (obviously not the black immigrants)
http://www.faceofmalawi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Tunisia_team.jpg


or more reasonably the cypriot team whose inhabitants have lived for a quite long time at around the same latitude of gibraltar
http://www.parikiaki.com/wp-content/uploads/cyprus-national-team.jpg

julia90
11-10-12, 00:40
I am a supporter of the Celtic language originating somewhere along the Atlantic Facade, possibly Spain.
the pre celtic langauges of all western europe spain (actually spain is one of the mostly pre-indo european genetic pool even if they have considerably indo-european genes via the celts) and possibly the british isles comprised were non-indo european... while celtic langauges are indo-european.. since all indo-european languages route is ?-ukraine steppe-central eastern europe-central europe, celts arrived from la tene, before arriving in spain or even in the british isles, and obviously in the british isles could exists some pockets of people less admixed with celts and germans (all indo-european people) who are the remain of non indoeuropean first inhabitants who could look more like sardineans thus they could appear darker (like robert22 said), but don't confuse them with celts wich are indo-europeans.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-10-12, 00:56
@Julia90

Who is talking about North Africans? Do you know how difficult it was - and still is to some extent - to navigate the currents in the Straights of Gibraltar during Antiquity? There is little evidence of North African influence in SW Iberia in the Bronze Age. Do you not know of the overwhelming evidence that exists with respect to maritime trade and social exchange between Iberia, Armorica, Ireland, Wales and other British Isle lands? (see Cunliffe, 2005, 2010). Why are there many basic elements of Old Irish in Tartessian (see Yokum 2011)? THINK!

What is your problem? Are you racially insecure? You are going against what every renowned contemporary Celtic scholar has stressed for some time: that Celticity is primarily cultural and Celts were likely fairly diverse in appearance (just like Iberians and other Atlantic facade types). READ: Yocum (2011), Koch (2009, 2010, 2011), Kauffman (2011), Untermann (1987, 1996), Cunliffe (2005, 2010), Wodtko (2010) and many others. It's foolish to associate Celticity with certain phenotypes. Indeed, it is ludicrous.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-10-12, 01:03
the pre celtic langauges of all western europe spain (actually spain is one of the mostly pre-indo european genetic pool even if they have considerably indo-european genes via the celts) and possibly the british isles comprised were non-indo european... while celtic langauges are indo-european.. since all indo-european languages route is ?-ukraine steppe-central eastern europe-central europe, celts arrived from la tene, before arriving in spain or even in the british isles, and obviously in the british isles could exists some pockets of people less admixed with celts and germans (all indo-european people) who are the remain of non indoeuropean first inhabitants who could look more like sardineans thus they could appear darker (like robert22 said), but don't confuse them with celts wich are indo-europeans.

A major component of the Iberian (Spain and Portugal) genetic substratum is Proto-Celtic and Celtic. Rant all you want, the facts are against you, big time. Good luck!

oriental
11-10-12, 01:09
The Labu are characterized by a number of features when they are depicted in Egyptian reliefs, such as fair skin, red hair, and blue eyes. They also wore ornamental cloaks, had one lock of hair, and were tattooed on their arms and legs. Some of these characteristics the Labu also shared with the Meshwesh, but unlike the Meshwesh the Labu wore kilts instead of loincloths. But the Labu were by far more documented for their wars against the Egyptians than for their looks. We see one of these campaigns documented in the "Israel Stela" of the fifth year of Merneptah’s reign, in which Merey, the chief of the Labu, has led his people along with other tribes against the Egyptians, and Merey and his troops were defeated. It has been suggested that the Labu fought against the Egyptians during the reign of Merneptah because there was no food. This seems like a reasonable explanation since we know that during the politically troubled years in Egypt after the reign of Merneptah, both the Labu and the Meshwesh took the opportunity and settled in western Egypt as far as the west bank of the Nile. Then, during the reign of Ramesses III, the Labu attacked Egypt because the pharaoh refused to give back one of the Labu chief’s children, but the Labu were defeated, which is documented in the Papyrus Harris (*12).

Maybe the Labu Sea Peoples were R1b people who attacked Egypt. R1b people were In North Africa 17,000 years ago were pastoralists and North Africa was not a desert at that time.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm

julia90
11-10-12, 01:32
A major component of the Iberian (Spain and Portugal) genetic substratum is Proto-Celtic and Celtic. Rant all you want, the facts are against you, big time. Good luck!

The substratum is pre-indo europeans of people like sardineans in the case of basque that have half sardinean component (otzi) and half celtic components.

the sardinean otzi component (or south west) is by no means celtic, while the other half of basque genetic is indeed celtic

julia90
11-10-12, 01:37
It's foolish to associate Celticity with certain phenotypes. Indeed, it is ludicrous.

no, then it is as loodicruous to associate certain phenotypes, let's say to germans or to amerindians, or to north africans.. there is a commonality of look between celts, like i posted in the thread what celts look like.. in those photos there is an obvious commonality on looks, i posted also many spaniards that indeed have those look too, as well as many other europeans

Cambrius (The Red)
11-10-12, 03:28
no, then it is as loodicruous to associate certain phenotypes, let's say to germans or to amerindians, or to north africans.. there is a commonality of look between celts, like i posted in the thread what celts look like.. in those photos there is an obvious commonality on looks, i posted also many spaniards that indeed have those look too, as well as many other europeans

There is no specific Celtic phenotype. Tell a Breton, Cornishman, or Welshman he is not Celtic because he has darker features. There are many dark Atlantic types in Britain and all along the Atlantic facade. Give it up already.

Tell you what, I'll provide you with the phone numbers and / or e-mails of some well-known Celtic scholars. Go and discuss the topic with them if you wish. Celticity is primarily cultural, like it or not.

Ziober
18-12-12, 15:30
Almost everyone had thought pale skin is an adaptation of northern latitude. But as environmentalist I am I must to say that in Bronze Age the iberian peninsula was fully covered by forest. With people hunting, gathering, etc under the shadow of the trees, just for thinking on it.

This is a video documentary which talks about ancient Iberian forests as a jungle.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAyHlX2CQig

MOESAN
18-12-12, 15:44
and were ancient Iberians, ancient Celts, ancient Lapps, ancient Greeks or latins wandering Europe dressed by their only skin... even their 5000/6000 older ancestors was wearing dress - skin colour adaptative effect ceased having any natural selective effect well earlier than the dates of arriving of the most of all these people... Do keep it in mind please! the mesolothic people had already clothes!

LeBrok
18-12-12, 18:40
and were ancient Iberians, ancient Celts, ancient Lapps, ancient Greeks or latins wandering Europe dressed by their only skin... even their 5000/6000 older ancestors was wearing dress - skin colour adaptative effect ceased having any natural selective effect well earlier than the dates of arriving of the most of all these people... Do keep it in mind please! the mesolothic people had already clothes!
Exactly, clothes allowed white people to settle North Africa and Arabian Peninsula. Just look how completely Bedouins are dressed up for full sun protection.

Ziober
24-12-12, 21:12
I think when happend the last mutation from armenoid to blonde for example they were dressed too. It could happend the same from "I don't know which ancestors" to redheads. Dresses are complements,its aren't part of us.

You think something: If mutation is not possible by doing everything under the shadows of the forests for having dresses neither should be possible to have a mutation for a northern latitude having dresses as they had had. I think the dresses protect us, but not enough to avoid a mutation.

Merry christmas.

MOESAN
05-01-13, 23:46
we (I and others here) never said that mutations occurred only under selection pressure - we said selection pressure lost its strenght long time ago and DOES NO MORE PRIVILEGIATE A CERTAIN RECENT MUTATION THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE SELDOM WHEN IT OCCURS!!! recent mutations in a numerous population needs some help to become prevalent ore ven only not too rare
happy new year the same!

adamo
13-04-13, 01:42
The truth is most spaniards do not look dark complexioned, although some of them do. Most Iberians are R1b of the S-116 subclade, also known as P-312 I believe. 75% of Spanish men are R1b. Another 55-60% of Portuguese men are also R1b. Most Iberian people today's ancestors are in fact ancient celts

Ziober
13-01-15, 17:49
I have read a compilation of articles talking about celts in Iberia in English. Its could make you understand the matter better than my explanations because my English is not good enough....

Ziober
13-01-15, 17:59
You are becoming borderline ridiculous. It is exceedingly obvious you have a severe problem with Iberian Celticity. LMAO!! Read the research on Tartessian and the latest Celtic studies as regards Iberia. Also, carefully read what Taranis wrote.

Lots of europeans have a problem regarding iberian celticity Cambrius. They should be informed before to talk about. If an Spaniard talks about celticity of Iberia is usually ignored. Maybe reading Wisconsin's University articles they could believe ... http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/index.html