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oriental
06-10-12, 00:46
There is such a thing as the Net Capital Ratio Rule whereby banks or traders must hold x amount of capital and can lend 15 times that much i.e. they can lend 15x. The old rule was 7x. Then ex-US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson when he was Chairman of Goldman Sachs had the Net Capital Rule changed to 33X i.e. twice the existing 15x. With President George W. Bush "Home Ownership" program in a bid to pump up the economy and low interest rate enabled banks to lend around $53 trillion in derivatives and mortgages. The bad mortgages were peddled to the international market and the crash of mortgages bankrupted Lehman Brothers and others. Finally US Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson stepped in to help Wall Street. After the US elections the Federal Reserve put in $2 trillion in the "cash reserves" of the other private banks to bring the Net Capital Ratio back to 15x. During George W. Bush the National Debt was $9 trillion. By President Obama's time the National debt became $15 trillion. The combined bailouts and public money into the cash reserves of private banks prevented a global Depression but it brought about the Great Recession worldwide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_capital_rule

There is an economist Michael Hudson who elaborates on the transformation of a production economy to an interest paying economy controlled by the banks.


Views

On parasitic financing

Hudson states finance has been key to guiding politics into reducing the productive capacity of the U.S. and Europe, even as the U.S. and Europe benefit from finance methods using similar and expanded techniques to harm Chile, Russia, Latvia, and Hungary.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hudson_%28economist%29#cite_note-brasilia-7) He states parasitic finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Parasitic_finance&action=edit&redlink=1) looks at industry and labor to determine how much wealth it can extract by fees, interest, and tax breaks, rather than providing needed capital to increase production and efficiency. He states the "magic of compounding interest" results in increasing debt that eventually extracts more wealth than production and labor are able to pay. Rather than extracting taxes from the "rentiers" to reduce the cost of labor and assets and use the tax revenue to improve infrastructure to increase production efficiency, he states the U.S. tax system, bank bailouts, and quantitative easing sacrifice labor and industry for the benefit of the finance sector.
He states the Washington Consensus has encouraged the IMF and world bank to impose austerity that the U.S. itself is not exposed to (thanks to dollar dominance) which leads to 1) subjecting other countries to unfair trade that depletes natural resources and 2) privatizing infrastructure that is sold at distressed prices that uses parasitic finance techniques (including western-style tax breaks) to extract the maximum amount of the country's surplus rather than providing a price-competitive service.
On the banking crisis

Hudson states that the mortgage crisis was caused by parasitic finance that used law and outright fraud, and that the government backing of toxic debt and quantitative easing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing) are ways to keep real estate inflated while the banks shift the real losses to U.S. labor, taxpayers, and the international community. Hudson states "quantitative easing" and "restoring stability" are euphemisms for the U.S. finance sector using the Federal Reserve and dollar dominance to engage in financial aggression to a degree that previously required military conquest.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hudson_%28economist%29#cite_note-DemNow-1) He points out Joseph Stiglitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stiglitz) has similar views. He states banks should have been allowed to fail with the government stepping in to protect savings and continue with qualified loans towards real productive capacity rather than financial loans that merely inflate asset prices. He states the Federal Reserve needs to understand inflating asset prices with low interest rates does not increase the long term productive capacity of the economy.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hudson_%28economist%29


The myth that Germany’s hyperinflation in the 1920s was caused by the Reichsbank using the printing press to finance Germany’s domestic budget deficit has survived to justify the Lisbon Treaty’s preventing the European Central Bank from creating money to lend to governments. Banks have spent a generation planting this false history to force governments to borrow commercially, at interest, presumably on risk-free terms. The ECB thus has been hijacked to serve commercial banks, not the public interest. Banks want to force governments to borrow commercially, at interest, presumably on risk-free terms. The aim is to monopolize the creation of money that governments could create just as well on their own computer keyboards.
Already in the 18th century, British economists such as Sir James Steuart, Rev. Josiah Tucker and even David Hume recognized that additional money and spending normally (as long as unemployment existed) helped increase output more than prices. The corollary is that monetary deflation in unemployment conditions tends to curtail output more than imports – not to speak of transferring property from creditors via foreclosure. So money is much more than a “veil.” It is debt, not merely a set of “counters.” Austerity discourages new capital investment, leading to deeper import dependency, worsening the balance of payments as well as the fiscal deficit.
By starving the economy of the funds to increase employment and output – while backing banks that have spent the past generation inflating real estate prices and the financial bubble – ECB policy has promoted asset price inflation for housing, living costs and hence employment costs. This hardly is a recommendation for leaving it with the central planning power it is seeking to impose austerity to squeeze out debt payments for its past irresponsible credit policy.



http://michael-hudson.com/2012/08/financial-predators-v-labor-industry-and-democracy/

http://michael-hudson.com/2012/08/fireside-on-the-great-theft/


Today’s post-industrial strategy of “wealth creation” is to use debt leveraging to bid up asset prices. From corporate raiders to arbitrageurs and computerized trading programs, this “casino capitalist” strategy works as long as asset prices rise at a faster rate than the interest that has to be paid. But it contains the seeds of its own destruction, because it builds up financial claims on the assets pledged as collateral – without creating new means of production. Instead of steering credit into tangible capital formation, banks find it easier to make money by lending to real estate and monopolies (and to other financial institutions). Their plan is to capitalize land rent, natural resource rent and monopoly privileges into loans, stocks and bonds.
This leads the banks to act as lobbyist for their rentier clients, to free them from taxes so that they will have more available to pay interest. The resulting tax shift onto labor and industry adds a fiscal burden to the debt overhead.
This is not a natural and even inevitable form of evolution. It is a detour from the kind of economy and indeed free market that classical writers sought to create. With roots in the 13th-century Schoolmen discussing Just Price, the labor theory of value was refined as a tool to isolate economic rent as that element of price that had no counterpart in actual or necessary costs of production. Banking charges, monopoly rent and land rent were the three types of economic rent analyzed in this long classical tradition. These rentier charges were seen as unnecessary and exploitative special privileges carried over from the military conquests that shaped medieval Europe. A free market was defined as one free of such overhead charges.
This classical view of free markets as being free of an unearned “free lunch” was embodied in the Progressive Era’s financial and tax reforms. But the rentiers have fought back. The financial sector seeks to justify today’s deepening indebtedness on the ground that it “creates wealth” by debt leveraging. Yet the banks’ product is a debt overhead, leaving debt deflation in its wake as debtors try to pay debts that can’t be paid without drastically reducing consumption and investment. A shrinking economy falls further into arrears in a debt spiral.



http://michael-hudson.com/2012/08/overview-the-bubble-and-beyond/

oriental
06-10-12, 00:50
Michael Hudson on Fictitious Capital (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/08/michael-hudson-on-fictitious-collateral.html)Michael Hudson spoke with Max Keiser about what he calls “fictitious capital” which is essentially lending backed by inadequate capital, such as collateral that has fallen in value. This is an idea he has explored in his previous papers, such as “From Marx to Goldman Sachs” and now in his new book, The Bubble and Beyond (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3981484207/counterpunchmaga). For German readers, Hudson was also interviewed in FAZ (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/sahra-wagenknecht-und-michael-hudson-im-gespraech-nicht-der-euro-wird-gerettet-sondern-eine-ideologie-11837817.html).

Read more at http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/08/michael-hudson-on-fictitious-collateral.html#7Fqk4mrToiT2H60E.99

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/08/michael-hudson-on-fictitious-collateral.html

oriental
06-10-12, 22:59
One wonders how could this all happen? The goldsmiths used to keep their customers’ gold as merchants didn't want to carry so much gold around on their person so the cheque was invented. The goldsmiths realized that only a portion of the value of their customers' gold holdings was involved so they took advantage of that and lent out more money. They realized they could lend seven times the value of the gold in their "banks" or basements. When the loans were repaid they collected seven times the value of the customers’ gold plus the interest and service charges. That is how the wealth of the goldsmiths-turned-bankers grew. They increased the "Net Capital Ratio" to 15 so their "capital" grew even more. They made all that money from their customers' gold. So one can see how the bankers took over the economy. The interest was declared as "income" while the repaid loans were not but as recapitalization. This largesse was spread into hedge funds managed by their close associates or ethnic group. Money was provided for their group to start businesses or to take over businesses. Money was also provided to educate their ethnic group.

oriental
09-10-12, 22:27
Net Capital Rule











Years


Principal


Ratio


Loans


Interest


100 % return
























0


$ 1,000.00


15


$ 15,000.00


2%


$ 15,300.00




5


$ 15,300.00


15


$ 229,500.00


2%


$ 234,090.00




10


$ 234,090.00


15


$ 3,511,350.00


2%


$ 3,581,577.00




15


$ 3,581,577.00


15


$ 53,723,655.00


2%


$ 54,798,128.10




20


$ 54,798,128.10


15


$ 821,971,921.50


2%


$ 838,411,359.93




25


$ 838,411,359.93


15


$ 12,576,170,398.95


2%


$ 12,827,693,806.93




30


$ 12,827,693,806.93


15


$ 192,415,407,103.94


2%


$ 196,263,715,246.01


















Bad loans = 25%















Principal @ 75%








75% return




















0


$ 1,000.00


15


$ 15,000.00


2%


$ 11,475.00




5


$ 11,475.00


15


$ 172,125.00


2%


$ 175,567.50




10


$ 175,567.50


15


$ 2,633,512.50


2%


$ 2,686,182.75




15


$ 2,686,182.75


15


$ 40,292,741.25


2%


$ 41,098,596.08




20


$ 41,098,596.08


15


$ 616,478,941.13


2%


$ 628,808,519.95




25


$ 628,808,519.95


15


$ 9,432,127,799.21


2%


$ 9,620,770,355.20




30


$ 9,620,770,355.20


15


$ 144,311,555,327.95


2%


$ 147,197,786,434.51




The above tables shows how a bank with “Net Capital Ratio” of 15 i.e.

assets (cash = investors’ money) : liabilities (loans = depositors’ money). There are three scenarios:

1. For a bank - 1:15 e.g. $1,000 of investors’ cash used as reserve to lend out $15,000 (depositors’ money) to businesses or for mortgages.

2. For a brokerage - Loans could also be from banks if it is a brokerage which operates like a bank for stocks and bonds.

3. For a bank - $1,000 (depositers’ money) : $15,000 (loans = fiat money or created out of nothing that the goldsmiths did)

If the loans are 5-year loans @ 2% annual rate then in 30 years, the bank’s capital can theoretically grow to $12 billion. If we assume bad loans at 25% with only 75% of the loans being paid back, the bank’s capital increases to $9 billion. The bank capital growth is exponential. This phenomenal growth would be too alarming for the public so the largesse was siphoned off to subsidiaries as hedge funds, brokerages and insurance companies run by bank associates, friends or school friends, family or ethnic associates

To approach this model the private bankers got control of the Bank of England and the US Federal Reserve. The names are deceiving. Both institutions are not national but are owned by private banks as the latter are the only shareholders. These two organizations print money for these banks.

Mortgages were sold and mortgage salesmen got commission on a percentage of their sales so the more they sold the more money they made. Mortgage banks lowered the down payment and extended the payback period to 40 years so people who normally could not afford were enticed to buy a house. 40 years is a long time and anything can happen. But some of the mortgages were defaulted or the house buyer could not make the payments and the banks realized they had a lot of these mortgages so what they did was to offload these mortgages. They bundled these mortgages as certificates and lied to the insurance companies (mainly AIG) that they were quality AAA certificates to pay lower insurance on them if they defaulted or went bad. This is called “credit default swap”. Credit is the mortgage. The swap is the insurance so if the mortgages goes belly up the buyer of the certificates could get the insurance. But there were so many defaults that the insurance was in danger of going bankrupt from paying. AIG was the insurance company that had to be rescued with bailouts.

The international banks that bought the bad mortgages were deceptively sold AAA-rated income producing certificates so unknowingly thought they were assets. Those mortgages had been sold to people who could not afford the mortgages and also 40 years is a long time as anything can happen before maturity. The seller got a bonus regardless if the mortgage was good or not. In reality the toxic mortgages were non-paying thus became liabilities and so the international banks’ balance sheet became unbalanced. They had less asset reserve to liabilities. I am not sure if the Net Capital Rule also holds for international banks. With Net Capital Rule at 1:15 only 1/15 of the debt or liabilities need be capitalized. So adding to capital or cash reserves would only 1/15 of the total debt would make the banks normal and operational.

How did the housing bubble occur? Speculators on advice from economists hired by real estate builders were given the profiteering scheme as follows:

Put as small as possible a deposit, or down payment, of $1,000 on presale. Then when the units are built sell it at market price of $300,000 so with rising house prices the speculators makes a killing of $300,000 - $1,000 = $290,000. If the speculator borrowed that money from the bank he paid only the interest for a year or two. At 5% he would have paid $50 interest and with $300,000 he could repay the bank loan and netted $299,950. The more houses he speculated the more he made. This was easy money so speculators rushed in. They created an artificial demand and builders couldn’t keep up with the demand and prices began to rise till they reached people with low income and were enticed with little or no down payment and extended 40-year mortgages. People who wanted houses for living were fulfilled and late builders and speculators increased the supply of houses beyond true demand so prices had to fall. Speculators and builders created the bubble. Notice the developers made a lot of money and one of the richest people around and they control municipal politicians with their party donations. The developers make huge profits from hi-rises but they exacerbate traffic. Hi-rises are 3D and traffic is 2D so there will be crowding and traffic delays which municipalities have to deal with public money on traffic upgrades. Hi-rise developers should have been made to pay for the traffic upgrade as they squeeze more people into one square foot of land. So there is one source of taxes and costs are transferred from the developer to the public. The municipal politicians are “hired” developers’ representatives as developers fund their campaigns.

The Roman Empire is a good example. The upper class (3% of the population) mostly senators and land owners were filthy rich. 1/3 of the population were slaves and the rest poor. The only way out of poverty was to become a soldier. There were two sources of power: the senate and being Caesar with an army. The Roman empire prospered on conquest. The loot was pay for soldiers and the state. The larger the empire became the greater the area that had to be protected so this stretched manpower requirements for the army thus mercenaries were employed. Soldiers were given lands that were conquered outside of Italy. Conquest brought slaves and enemy soldiers were captured for gladiatorial events in the Colosseum. Soldiering is a young man’s vocation. When the soldiers retired they turned to farming. Bad weather could put these former soldiers in debt and also they could not compete with the slave-owning upper class with large farms. So these retired soldiers became poor or were enslaved by debt. The poor eventually all entered the big cities. The emperor knowing he had a revolt at his doorstep with so many poor people nearby, he wisely periodically provided free grains for the poor of the city and also to win political favour. Also he knew the poor had to be occupied as there were no television in those days. The Colosseum was built and the gladiator fights were one way to get rid of captured enemy soldiers. Lead poisoning led to erratic behaviour of emperors like Caligula and Nero for aqueducts were lined with lead piping. ‘Plumbum’ is Latin for lead so that is how we got the word plumbing. The economic oppression and the mercenaries’ plots weakened the Roman empire. A German mercenary led the Roman legions to a trap in the Teutoburg forest when they marched single file. The Roman legions were vulnerable when stretched single file when attacked on their flanks by ambush. Citizens were so oppressed that they opened the gates of Rome to invading armies. They figured they would be free of the economic oppression with system destroyed.

oriental
09-10-12, 22:28
Goldsmith bankers

http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/econ/ugcm/3ll3/bisschop/money.pdf

http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki/Edward_Backwell,_London,_1653-82

http://encyclopedia-of-money.blogspot.ca/2010/03/goldsmith-bankers.html

oriental
09-10-12, 23:03
Those dishonest goldsmiths:

http://blog.turgot.org/public/documents/Selgin_Goldsmiths.pdf

oriental
20-10-12, 00:41
History of money
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money

http://projects.exeter.ac.uk/RDavies/arian/llyfr.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/history-money.html

http://library.thinkquest.org/28718/history.html

http://inventors.about.com/od/mstartinventions/a/money.htm

oriental
07-11-12, 22:29
It happened before:

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/954_Gallagher_Venice_rig.html

oriental
08-11-12, 22:14
The good bankers Medici

http://www.finearttouch.com/The_Rise_of_the_Medici,_Florentine_Bankers.html

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/endmiddle/bluedot/banking.html

http://www.learner.org/interactives/renaissance/florence.html

http://news.discovery.com/history/medieval-banks-lessons-euro-111208.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici_Bank


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici_Bank)

oriental
10-11-12, 21:20
Florence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence

Of course there was the other banking system - the Templars

http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/knights-templar-banking.htm

http://blog.templarhistory.com/2010/03/did-the-templars-form-switzerland/

http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.ca/2012/10/the-knights-templar-banking-and-secrecy.html

http://www.theunknowntemplar.com/section575439_208593.html

oriental
20-11-12, 00:53
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/endmiddle/FRAMES/econframe.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_01978.html

http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?524-Venetian-Bankers-and-the-Dark-Ages

http://www.reformation.org/moneychangers.html

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Bankers.htm

oriental
30-11-12, 01:14
http://row.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=O2tc00PDlDmbpr_2ULPaWgBXQHKBZlCz2tcADiM6&T=1ehgetutk%2fX%3d1353964248%2fE%3d1184561537%2fR% 3dcafin%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dHR%2fY%3dCA%2fF%3d 655359830%2fH%3dX2lkPSI0ZDljZTljMS1hZmI3LTM1ODQtYT A0Mi04MDRjN2MwMWFlMjYiIGNhbl9zdXBwcmVzc191Z2M9IjEi IGNvbnRlbnQ9ImZpbmFuY2UiIHJlZnVybD0icmVmdXJsX2NhX3 lhaG9vX2NvbSIgcnM9Imxtc2lkOmEwNzcwMDAwMDBEMno3TUFB UiIgc2Vuc2l0aXZpdHk9IjAiIHNlcnZlSWQ9Ik8ydGMwMFBEbE RtYnByXzJVTFBhV2dCWFFIS0JabEN6MnRjQURpTTYiIHNpdGVJ ZD0iODUzMTA1MSIgdFN0bXA9IjEzNTM5NjQyNDc5ODA2MDMiIA--%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d8F258B62&U=12cbl19c6%2fN%3d34Z1d0oGYqE-%2fC%3d-1%2fD%3dLOGO%2fB%3d-1%2fV%3d0


Does your job attract psychopaths? http://www.eupedia.com/forum/does-job-attract-psychopaths-174821150_files/jkwan-JPG_210939.jpg http://www.eupedia.com/forum/does-job-attract-psychopaths-174821150_files/transparent-95031.png By Jennifer Kwan (http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/blogs/author/jennifer-kwan-/)
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By Jennifer Kwan (http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/blogs/author/jennifer-kwan-/) | Insight (http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/blogs/insight/) – Fri, 23 Nov, 2012 12:48 PM EST



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http://www.eupedia.com/forum/does-job-attract-psychopaths-174821150_files/575x270-panoramic_psychopath_14015.jpg
(http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/photos/psycho-boss-photo-200000538.html) Inc -



The main character in Bret Easton Ellis' "American Psycho" forever changed how we view good-looking, successful businessmen, and apparently psychopaths lurk in a range of professions.
They especially thrive in professions that give them lots of power and don't require much feeling, Eric Barker writes in his Barking Up The Wrong Tree blog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-barker/which-professions-have-the-most-psychopaths_b_2084246.html). He references Kevin Dutton's book: The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-wisdom-of-psychopaths-what-saints-spies-and-serial-killers-can-teach-us-about-success-by-kevin-dutton/2012/11/09/23d86a1e-2360-11e2-ba29-238a6ac36a08_story.html)
The crux of all this argument is that being a psychopath doesn't simply mean killing a lot of people. Psychopaths typically have a lack of emotions and empathy, or the ability to identify with others. Egocentrics and impulsivity may also be telltale signs.
Dutton is an Oxford professor who spends time researching the positive side of being a psychopath. Apparently society thrives if a small portion of them exist.
One reviewer characterized the book (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/oct/07/wisdom-of-psychopaths-kevin-dutton-review)as being a "convincing study shows that business leaders and serial killers share a mindset."
The professor and author claims that psychopaths have a distinct set of personality characteristics we may see all around us such as "ruthlessness, fearlessness, mental toughness, charm, persuasiveness — and they lack a conscience and empathy," he tells USA Today.
"I wrote the book primarily to debunk deep-seated myths the public has about psychopaths — that they are all bad or mad," he is quoted as saying. "No sooner does the word 'psychopath' come out of our lips then images of (1970s-era serial killer) Ted Bundy and serial killer A-listers come to mind."
So back to what professions draw and repel psychopaths?
Psychopaths are most drawn to being a CEO, lawyer and media type, especially TV and radio. These three rank at the top of a list of 10 most attractive professions that also includes police officer, chef and civil servant.
On the flip side, psychopaths may be least drawn to professions that require human connections such as being a care aide, nurse or therapist. Other professions on this list include creative artist, doctor and accountant.
Professions psychopaths are drawn to:
1. CEO
2. Lawyer
3. Media (specifically TV and radio)
4. Salesperson
5. Surgeon
6. Journalist
7. Police officer
8. Clergyperson
9. Chef
10. Civil Servant
C'mon, you must be curious: do you have psychopathic tendencies? Try Dutton's test. (http://www.wisdomofpsychopaths.com/index.html#challenge)

I am surprised that a banker is not included in this group that psychopaths would gravitate to.

LeBrok
30-11-12, 03:27
It makes sense. Psychopaths picking anything with position of power. To have directing/ruling role and many subordinates. In such position they can pick many victims, often hopeless victims who are not in position to demand, complain or threaten the boss psychopath.
Somehow they missed Drill Sargent.

By same logic pedophiles pick jobs in occupations overseeing children in orphanages, camps or as priests.

What I don't like is that they throw in as psychopaths people who do harm to others accidentally. People without empathy can hurt others because they don't realize they do (it's hard without empathy). Probably most journalists are like this, and you have to be, to be able to ask questions without scruples.
True psychopaths, on other hand, have lots of feelings, but they are wired the wrong way. Empathy doesn't give them pleasure, but suffering of others does. The worst types of them are simply addicted to human misery, they actively spend time creating situations to cause human suffering, just to experience more pleasure/high. The group includes serial killers, many dictators, bosses from hell and many spectators of American Wrestling (the most psychopathic "sport" every).

LeBrok
30-11-12, 04:41
One wonders how could this all happen? The goldsmiths used to keep their customers’ gold as merchants didn't want to carry so much gold around on their person so the cheque was invented. The goldsmiths realized that only a portion of the value of their customers' gold holdings was involved so they took advantage of that and lent out more money. They realized they could lend seven times the value of the gold in their "banks" or basements. When the loans were repaid they collected seven times the value of the customers’ gold plus the interest and service charges. That is how the wealth of the goldsmiths-turned-bankers grew. They increased the "Net Capital Ratio" to 15 so their "capital" grew even more. They made all that money from their customers' gold. So one can see how the bankers took over the economy. The interest was declared as "income" while the repaid loans were not but as recapitalization. This largesse was spread into hedge funds managed by their close associates or ethnic group. Money was provided for their group to start businesses or to take over businesses. Money was also provided to educate their ethnic group.

So what? It looks that it works for at least 500 years. Wouldn't you say that it worked for a long time to prove itself right? Off course, as with everything in life, balance has to be held in moderation. In this case Net Capital Ration should not exceeding x15.
Good example is canadian economy with canadian banks:

The average capital reserves for Canada's Big Six banks — defined as Tier 1 capital (common shares, retained earnings and non-cumulative preferred shares) to risk-adjusted assets — is 9.8%, several percentage points above the 7% required by Canada's federal bank regulator.
Wow, they are at x10, didn't even risk going to x15. Impossible, they should be greedy bankers!!!
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1855317,00.html



If banks proved for 500 year that it is doable, and with right ratio health for economy, why do you listen to Michael Hudson who says that these Fictitious Capital will lead to destruction of our economies? Ask yourself a question, who is right: 500 year history of modern Banking system or hypothesis of Micheal Hudson?

LeBrok
30-11-12, 04:59
One wonders how could this all happen? The goldsmiths used to keep their customers’ gold as merchants didn't want to carry so much gold around on their person so the cheque was invented. The goldsmiths realized that only a portion of the value of their customers' gold holdings was involved so they took advantage of that and lent out more money. They realized they could lend seven times the value of the gold in their "banks" or basements. When the loans were repaid they collected seven times the value of the customers’ gold plus the interest and service charges. That is how the wealth of the goldsmiths-turned-bankers grew. They increased the "Net Capital Ratio" to 15 so their "capital" grew even more. They made all that money from their customers' gold. So one can see how the bankers took over the economy. The interest was declared as "income" while the repaid loans were not but as recapitalization. This largesse was spread into hedge funds managed by their close associates or ethnic group. Money was provided for their group to start businesses or to take over businesses. Money was also provided to educate their ethnic group.
Can you elaborate what ethnic group(s) you are referring to?

ElHorsto
30-11-12, 15:49
It makes sense. Psychopaths picking anything with position of power. To have directing/ruling role and many subordinates. In such position they can pick many victims, often hopeless victims who are not in position to demand, complain or threaten the boss psychopath.
Somehow they missed Drill Sargent.

By same logic pedophiles pick jobs in occupations overseeing children in orphanages, camps or as priests.

What I don't like is that they throw in as psychopaths people who do harm to others accidentally. People without empathy can hurt others because they don't realize they do (it's hard without empathy). Probably most journalists are like this, and you have to be, to be able to ask questions without scruples.
True psychopaths, on other hand, have lots of feelings, but they are wired the wrong way. Empathy doesn't give them pleasure, but suffering of others does. The worst types of them are simply addicted to human misery, they actively spend time creating situations to cause human suffering, just to experience more pleasure/high. The group includes serial killers, many dictators, bosses from hell and many spectators of American Wrestling (the most psychopathic "sport" every).

You elaborated a very important truth, which is unfortunately often misunderstood in today mainstream.
Empathy indeed does not make a human better or worse. It is like a tool which one can use this or that way. Autistic individuals do not act less morally on average despite their lack of empathy (a vague term anyway). For the same reason no one would blame a blind person if he accidentally hits another person.
Your remark on sociopaths is especially true. Empathy makes sadism possible and is a powerful tool to read others minds and take advantage of others. Some empathic people also get disgusted by others because they can empathically feel their misery (examples are inability of some persons to do nursing or certain health care jobs due to burdensome empathic feelings for the miserables; or when certain middle class people feel disgust or shame about lower class persons). Empathy is neither good or bad.
Unfortunately empathy is being promoted in the media as the gold-standard for human traits, as if someone would need an extra reason to do NO harm to others. This is perverted logic. Only if someone actually DOES harm to someone, then he must had a reason/motivation (whether good or bad reason is a different question).

oriental
04-12-12, 01:23
If banks proved for 500 year that it is doable

The problem is not whether it is doable but how come the governments never took efforts to get revenue out of the banks exponential growth. Do you feel people who prints money should become richer than people who create and manufacture material goods. Maybe the political parties are in on the profits. Notice the parties of the Republicans are all from executives of large corporations and banks.

It seems you have been ignoring all the threads on Eupedia of the Eurozone.


Can you elaborate what ethnic group(s) you are referring to?

Could be any group. In India it is the Marwaris, In China the Communist Party, in Soviet Russia the the Politburo members, in America the Jews. Any of the bankers would likely keep their loot within family groups or ethnic groups. Look into any famous and rich banker and you will see people around them are their families, childhood friends, ethnic groups. It is only natural. Maybe they were clever enough to hide the truth. It is the failure of government to control the situation. It was a failure. There has been financial crises before. All kinds of ethnic groups were involved for instance Italians, Irish and Jews were active during the Prohibition period. The 1929 Crash had everyone involved.

oriental
04-12-12, 22:17
Serial killers' brains were studied and it was found that the amygdala the tiny part in the middle of the brain in human reptilian brain is smaller than normal. The amygdala is responsible for emotions such as fear, love, empathy. It appears psychopaths are devoid or have very little feelings. It appears they have more analytical minds so they can carry on without remorse and thus achieve greater results. The smallness of the amygdala in psychopaths may be why they have only a small range of feelings just the fundamental emotions of fear and anger to fight. Probably no love or empathy.

I am rather analytical and thus I thought would make a good psychopath. I took the test and came out with 15/33. So I don't make a good psychopath!!!

LeBrok
05-12-12, 09:00
The problem is not whether it is doable but how come the governments never took efforts efforts to get revenue out of the banks exponential growth. Do you feel people who prints money should become richer than people who create and manufacture material goods. Maybe the political parties are in on the profits. Notice the parties of the Republicans are all from executives of large corporations and banks.
There is no exponential growth of banks. The table from few post above makes only mathematical sence but not in practice. If you spend a moment with your calculator or spreadsheet and expended this table to 200 years (why not, some banks existed for that long or longer) you would have seen that by year 200 the bank would had 3,735,499,335,776,130,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000.00 dollars (or other currency). There is not even a name for this huge number, lol. Can you point us the the bank on this planet that have even one billionth of it? Well, in real life there is no exponential growth in banking, not even close.

Having said that, I'm not totally satisfied how banking industry works right now, from "creative" derivative products to ballooned salaries of CEOs. Nevertheless, the banking, the financial side existed for a very long time and is highly tuned with our economy. There is no reason to destroy it.



Do you feel people who prints money should become richer than people who create and manufacture material goods.
Here is the list of richest people on earth. How many bankers do you see?
http://thetechjournal.com/internet/social-community/forbes-publishes-annual-list-of-worlds-richest-bill-gates-dethroned.xhtml
Here is the list of biggest companies. How many banks do you see? How many old banks that grew huge and fast exponentially?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_by_revenue





It seems you have been ignoring all the threads on Eupedia of the Eurozone.
What do you mean? Do we have Eurozone as sub-forum or something? I need some clarification here.




Could be any group. In India it is the Mulwaris, In China the Communist Party, in Soviet Russia the the Politburo members, in America the Jews. Any of the bankers would likely keep their loot within family groups or ethnic groups. Look into any famous and rich banker and you will see people around them are their families, childhood friends, ethnic groups. It is only natural. Maybe they were clever enough to hide the truth. It is the failure of government to control the situation. It was a failure. There has been financial crises before. All kinds of ethnic groups were involved for instance Italians, Irish and Jews were active during the Prohibition period. The 1929 Crash had everyone involved.

My google can't find Mulwaris. I need help here.
Communist party of China or Soviet Politburo can't qualify as an ethnic group. Besides, they both had their banking system messed up pretty good. Not sure why you had mentioned them?
At the end you pointed out only one ethnic group, Jews. Sure, they are smart in banking, but it also goes being smart in science and art. It would be nice to give them some credit for the movies you enjoy, for the music, for the inventions, relativity, and many medications that you might be taking. And if it comes to the banks, they pay taxes too, and yes it pays for part of your health care, roads, etc. I guess your table doesn't mention paying taxes, or losing some income to inflation.
What do you mean by hiding the truth? Do you mean that they found long lost Phoenician manual how to make money?
At the end, I would like to mention that this is a free market economy. You can open a bank or a credit union and get the licence from government to print money, and grow exponentially. You don't need to be Jew to do that, you know.

oriental
06-12-12, 00:39
There is no exponential growth of banks

Obviously you didn't follow what I wrote


The bank capital growth is exponential. This phenomenal growth would be too alarming for the public so the largesse was siphoned off to subsidiaries as hedge funds, brokerages and insurance companies run by bank associates, friends or school friends, family or ethnic associates

These bankers are cunning thus they hid everything. Even the economists might be in on it as there are no texts regarding banks making exponential income disguised as capitalization except Michael Hudson.


I just wrote this up.

As the first banks were in the temple in Egypt and Mesopotamia, it could be that to keep track of accounts and transaction led to writing as the tablets in Sumeria indicate. So the myth keepers, the priests, were at the top of the society. They knew enough to have their myths instilled in young children so within a society it would be permanent.

The Bible requirement of tithes is an example how clever the priests were. Suppose there were ten people including the priest i.e. nine ordinary people and one priest. The average income is $10. Each had to give 1/10 of his income so each would contribute $1. So the nine people would contribute totally $9 to the priest for spreading the myths. Everyone therefore has a $9 income. Now if there were 99 people with 1 priest the priest gets $99 while the rest have $9 for average income. The priest makes more than 10 times the average Joe. With a thousand the priest makes $999 while his flock average only $9. Not bad for scaring people with hell a sort of protection racket from hell.

oriental
06-12-12, 01:01
There is no reason to destroy it.

I did not recommend destroying it just controlling it. The exponential earnings can even withstand 75% "bad loans". Amazing!!! Just do the calculations.


Here is the list of richest people on earth

Bankers are cunning and keep a low profile. Their wealth is hidden just like rich kids walk around in jeans with artificial tears and wear marks. I remember Greek $7 billion Niarchos kid that Paris Hilton was hot for wearing styled "poor man or working man" jeans.

oriental
06-12-12, 01:06
My google can't find Mulwaris

Sorry spelt wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Marwari_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwari

http://marwarihistory.blogspot.ca/

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/report_marwaris-mind-their-own-business_1423988

oriental
06-12-12, 01:14
How many banks do you see?

Obviously you know or don't about shell companies. Many of those banks that control The Fed or Federal Reserve Bank are related to the Rothschilds, Warburg and Shiff families. The Rockefellers own shares on all the oil companies that were split up from Standard Oil. Come on use your imagination. Imagine yourself as a smart lawyer to get around US Anti-trust laws and tax system. You are only aping their representatives' arguments.

oriental
06-12-12, 01:17
get the licence from government to print money, and grow exponentially

Another false argument. Only the banks that own shares in central banks can have their money printed. The ones that own the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. Most banks only use the 10x money multiplier and cannot print legal money.

nordicwarrior
06-12-12, 03:03
The U.S. Fed "printed" 16 trillion dollars and gave it to Europe without anyone even knowing about it. Didn't turn up until Ron Paul got the audit approved. (I put printed in quotes because they now just input some ones and zeros into a computer--they don't have to bother with ink or paper at this point.)

If you want to steal a little bit of money, rob a bank. If you want to steal a whole bunch of money, own one.

Templar
06-12-12, 18:32
The U.S. Fed "printed" 16 trillion dollars and gave it to Europe without anyone even knowing about it. Didn't turn up until Ron Paul got the audit approved. (I put printed in quotes because they now just input some ones and zeros into a computer--they don't have to bother with ink or paper at this point.)

If you want to steal a little bit of money, rob a bank. If you want to steal a whole bunch of money, own one.

Ron Paul is one of the very few uncorruptable politicians. His principles mean to him more than animalistic and primitive needs for pleasure. He even served in wars, unlike the likes of Bush and Cheney who are "chicken hawks". They want war, yet aren't willing to serve in them themselves.

oriental
06-12-12, 22:08
The U.S. Fed "printed" 16 trillion dollars

That is interesting!!! There sure is a lot going that they are not letting us in on.

The brokerage is only a front. There are a lot of funny business going on but hidden.:thinking:

nordicwarrior
06-12-12, 22:26
Yes he served in the military. And he was a real doctor, he delivered thousands of babies. I actually voted for him in the last election, of course I had to write his name in because he wasn't on the ballot... His son Rand Paul is now a Senator from Kentucky. Rand isn't quite the maverick his father has been though.

oriental
07-12-12, 00:14
Too bad Ron Paul didn't become president. He would have cleaned up the Fed. Maybe that is why he was shunted aside. The powers that be do not want anyone tinkering with the Fed. Notice quite a few Presidents that wanted to do something with the Fed died e.g. Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt was even shot at (according to the Smithsonian Magazine; his 50-page speech that he tucked in coat pocket and his metal glass-case prevented the bullet from killing him although the bullet entered his body and missed the lung).

nordicwarrior
07-12-12, 02:05
Yeah, maybe we need another Andrew Jackson. The bankers loved Andrew Jackson. Hehe.

oriental
08-12-12, 00:34
Andrew Jackson

Didn't he start the Democratic Party? I get mixed up. There seems to be another "Stonewall" Jackson. Is "stonewall" another person or the same Andrew Jackson?

nordicwarrior
08-12-12, 03:12
I'm referring to Andrew Jackson, seventh President of the United States. Also known as "Old Hickory", and served as a general in the military. For genetic buffs, I think he would be an R1b because of his Scot-Irish origins. He is pictured on our $20 bill. Had many problems with the Native Indians, but yet adopted an Indian son. Complicated man, a real pistol, but he's one of my favorite Presidents.

Templar
08-12-12, 04:00
I'm referring to Andrew Jackson, seventh President of the United States. Also known as "Old Hickory", and served as a general in the military. For genetic buffs, I think he would be an R1b because of his Scot-Irish origins. He is pictured on our $20 bill. Had many problems with the Native Indians, but yet adopted an Indian son. Complicated man, a real pistol, but he's one of my favorite Presidents.

He was arguably a "primitive" president when compared to his Enlightenment predecessors though. But at least he was a strong opponent of centralized banking institutions.

nordicwarrior
08-12-12, 15:26
"...when compared to his Enlightenment predecessors"-- Well yes and no Templar. Remember Jefferson owned slaves, but then also fathered children with Sally Hemmings. Some say Sally was the love of his life, and yet he "owned" her. We have an interesting relationship with ideas of race, class, wealth and religion in the U.S., because we are swirling in a blender of so many different colors, creeds, etc.

nordicwarrior
08-12-12, 15:28
And Jefferson was paternally haplogroup T for you genetic hobbyists...

Templar
08-12-12, 18:03
"...when compared to his Enlightenment predecessors"-- Well yes and no Templar. Remember Jefferson owned slaves, but then also fathered children with Sally Hemmings. Some say Sally was the love of his life, and yet he "owned" her. We have an interesting relationship with ideas of race, class, wealth and religion in the U.S., because we are swirling in a blender of so many different colors, creeds, etc.

Yeah I know many of them owned slaves, but this was normal in those days. Some justified it as being "moral" as long as they treated their slaves well enough. And lets not forget that many freed their slaves after they themselves died (through their written wills). But I was referring to their political and social ideas when I said they were "enlightened". They were against monarchies and oligarchies, they valued 18th century enlightenment works, met with Voltaire, etc. Many also rejected the trinity and considered themselves Deist or Unitarian which was pretty progressive for that era.

oriental
08-12-12, 22:18
My personal feeling is that the original Jews were Amorites whose leader was Hammurabi with his famous Code from the Ten Commandments were derived. They were probably R1b as the Amorites were pastoralists (shepherds) not Arabs. I think the Bible is inaccurate as the people that occupied the Levant were the resettled Sea Peoples not slaves. A lot of killed among the Sea People who attacked the Egyptians were circumcised. The Sea People attacks occurred near the original lands of J1 and J2 people so it would be natural for Jews to be inundated with the J1 and J2 people over time.

nordicwarrior
08-12-12, 22:49
I don't agree with that view point at all Oriental. The Jews are J no doubt about it, the Kohen can trace back directly to Abraham. There are theories of "R" being in ancient Egypt however, even serving as Pharoahs at one point. And there are a surprising number of Levites that trace back to R1a, but that comes much later in history.

oriental
08-12-12, 22:53
R1b might have been the original starting point as Esau and King David were red haired. J1 are in most cases are black haired.

Templar
09-12-12, 00:18
R1b might have been the original starting point as Esau and King David were red haired. J1 are in most cases are black haired.

From where did you find out that he was redhaired?

oriental
11-12-12, 21:36
The $16 trillion mystery:


Originally I was going to write about the $53-66 trillion loans Wall Street banks were lending all over the world in real estate, mining, oil exploration, etc. Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, etc. had too little reserves with the 33:1 Net Capital Rule especially when the toxic mortgages which they bought as reserves or assets turned into liabilities as money wasn’t out of them. They couldn’t meet the daily cash flow requirements. Rumours of mortgages defaulting caused runs on these banks and they went bankrupt. Goldman Sachs John Paulson (not related to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson) made huge profits as he knew about the bad mortgages and did a short sell on them.



What is a short sell? It is a loan of shares, or stocks, for a certain period say 6 months. The short seller or speculator pays a small interest to the stockbroker or pension fund. He sells the stocks as it rises especially when it peaks. Because of the huge quantity of stocks released into the market creating a flood the stocks prices begin to fall. To ensure that stock price to fall false rumours are spread about the company and short seller buys back the stocks at bargain basement price and returned to the brokerage or pension fund. He made a killing on those stocks and pays the brokerage or pension fund the rent charges.


Bailouts were made GM, AIG and Wall Street banks as the banking system froze. With the Net Capital Rule at 33:1 the Wall Street capital would be $2 trillion. Another $2 trillion were given to the banks to brink the Wall Street Net Capital Rule back to 15:1. So Wall Street banks now had $4 trillion capital. This was in 2007-2008. Depression was averted.


Now it is 4 or 5 years later whatever happened to the $66 trillion? Say in my model calculation the loans were 5-year terms, so the $66 trillion plus interest would now be paid back to the banks and Wall Street capital would increase to $66 trillion. Now they could lend out 15 times $66 trillion which is $990 trillion enough to bring the entire world out of poverty but this is not happening. What is happening is the deliberate siphoning of the $66 trillion. If there was a loss of 25% in bad loans then there would be $49.5 trillion left. If the US government taxed that amount at 50% which would be $24.75 trillion there would be no deficit. The entire nation debt of $16 trillion would be paid off. There would be no fiscal cliff. Bernanke should be thrown off the fiscal cliff. How come the US government doesn’t keep track of this while a worker’s every move is tracked and maybe taxed. Could the Fed be doing double bookkeeping like those Chicago gangsters - one for the taxman and another for their true fiscal control? The US Government seems blind to Wall Street’s loan earnings.


What if Wall Street $49.5 was divvied up among the Rothschilds banks in Europe and elsewhere. The Deutsche Bank is a Rothschilds bank. The $16 trillion wired to Europe by the Fed may be the payoff. Much like Hollywood gangster movies where they split the loot among gang members after a robber. Europe’s share was $16 trillion. This is a possible explanation of the mysterious $16 trillion electronic transfer to Europe.


Where does the money go? The DeBeers company own the gold mines and diamond mines in South Africa. The chief shareholder and operator is run by Mr. Oppenheimer though a Christian is of Jewish heritage. Of course, Jews in Antwerp, Manhattan and elsewhere polish the diamonds, just compressed coal lumps. The Rothschilds control Rio Tinto which owns Kitimat Aluminum Smelter and also control mercury supply used in gold ore processing to purify gold. Rothschilds also in conjunction with the Dutch Royal family owns Royal Dutch Shell Oil Company, one of the Seven Sisters of the oil industry.


Jews were part of the Mafia in the prohibition period. First were Irish involved in bootlegging getting booze from Ireland. Joseph Kennedy, father of President John F. Kennedy, was one of the leaders of the Irish mafia. Being a banker this bootlegging helped him bankroll his banking. He got out of bootlegging when the violent Italian mafia took over. The Jews were the financial wizards for the Italians. The Jewish mafia controlled Maimi and Havanna in Cuba. Lucky Luciano, Bugsy Siegel, Meyer Lansky, Arnold Rothstein were the Jewish mafia. Just before the 1929 Wall Street Crash Kennedy and others sold off their shares and bought gold. Joe Kennedy got into real estate and the Chicago Commercial Mart Building is owned by the Kennedy Clan. Jewish Samuel Bronfman of Montreal, Canada who ran Seagrams supplied the booze for the mafia. He was called the “bootlegger” by Modecai Richler, the Canadian writer of the movie “The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz”.


Reference: The Mafia DVD Set A&E Video (http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/studio.php?ID=1) // Unrated // July 28, 2009


“Mafia: the complete history of a criminal world” by Jo Durden Smith, Arcturus Publishing Ltd., 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks_acquired_or_bankrupted_during_the_20 07%E2%80%932012_global_financial_crisis

LeBrok
11-12-12, 22:25
The $16 trillion mystery:




Now it is 4 or 5 years later whatever happened to the $66 trillion? Say in my model calculation the loans were 5-year terms, so the $66 trillion plus interest would now be paid back to the banks and Wall Street capital would increase to $66 trillion. Now they could lend out 15 times $66 trillion which is $990 trillion enough to bring the entire world out of poverty but this is not happening. What is happening is the deliberate siphoning of the $66 trillion. If there was a loss of 25% in bad loans then there would be $49.5 trillion left. If the US government taxed that amount at 50% which would be $24.75 trillion there would be no deficit. The entire nation debt of $16 trillion would be paid off. There would be no fiscal cliff. Bernanke should be thrown off the fiscal cliff. How come the US government doesn’t keep track of this while a worker’s every move is tracked and maybe taxed. Could the Fed be doing double bookkeeping like those Chicago gangsters - one for the taxman and another for their true fiscal control? The US Government seems blind to Wall Street’s loan earnings.





Banks didn't start operations when crises began. The biggest banks exist for about 100 years. According to your table of exponential growth of banks (please expand it to 100 years), they should be sitting already on quadrillions or sixtillions of dollars (feel free to name even bigger numbers). I'm asking you, where is the money? With your exponential growth hypothesis, banks should have these astronomical amount of capital to easily deal with their mare billions of dollars of trade loses that started the crisis.
Please, show us where the money went. Failure to do so will deem this thread a conspiracy theory and will be deleted.

There are thousands of banks in the world these days, which employ millions of people. There are also thousands of accounting firms doing audits in these banks, which also employ millions of accountants. I'm pretty sure that if you were right, at least few thousands of these employ's would be happy elaborated your hypothesis, and shine the light on the biggest scam on earth.

Where is the money? Just don't tell us that these millions of people in "know how" is on it and keeping silence, that's why you don't know.

oriental
12-12-12, 00:30
where the money went

Where does the money go? The DeBeers company own the gold mines and diamond mines in South Africa. The chief shareholder and operator is run by Mr. Oppenheimer though a Christian is of Jewish heritage. Of course, Jews in Antwerp, Manhattan and elsewhere polish the diamonds, just compressed coal lumps. The Rothschilds control Rio Tinto which owns Kitimat Aluminum Smelter and also control mercury supply used in gold ore processing to purify gold. Rothschilds also in conjunction with the Dutch Royal family owns Royal Dutch Shell Oil Company, one of the Seven Sisters of the oil industry.

LeBrok
12-12-12, 02:25
Where does the money go? The DeBeers company own the gold mines and diamond mines in South Africa. The chief shareholder and operator is run by Mr. Oppenheimer though a Christian is of Jewish heritage. Of course, Jews in Antwerp, Manhattan and elsewhere polish the diamonds, just compressed coal lumps. The Rothschilds control Rio Tinto which owns Kitimat Aluminum Smelter and also control mercury supply used in gold ore processing to purify gold. Rothschilds also in conjunction with the Dutch Royal family owns Royal Dutch Shell Oil Company, one of the Seven Sisters of the oil industry.

Do you mean that banks and Jews invest in production creating jobs and wealth for all?

Please, expand your exponential growth table to year 100. Then start looking for missing sixtillions of dollars, unless your table and assumption about its validity is wrong. In this case I advise you to edit your posts accordingly.

Yetos
12-12-12, 10:55
Do you mean that banks and Jews invest in production creating jobs and wealth for all?

Please, expand your exponential growth table to year 100. Then start looking for missing sixtillions of dollars, unless your table and assumption about its validity is wrong. In this case I advise you to edit your posts accordingly.


He could mean the misery, robbery, and crisis that banks like Goldman's Sachs's Liehman's brought,
Paying only chief managers and head workers, and leaving unemployed and send to misery simple workers,

he could mean the 'one man sale' μονοπωλιον monopoly that some private have,

and this not conspiracy,
People can give data and names explaining what is happening,
if the data are ok then the truth is according the eye you see them,
and you know about Goldman sachs and Liehman that invest in BUBBLES and send MANY WORKERS IN DESPAIR that could be used succesfully elsewhere.

today Banking system is not like 17 18 century,
today bankers have been 'overpowered' and someone must stop them, cause they bring corruption, and stupidity, and poverty,

I a person drops to misshundle or runs out, state does not care,
if a bank runs out or misshundle, state is raising taxes and gets money from poor to save the Bank,
THAT is disgusting in the Free world,

the 2 most disgustic things in modern world are
1 the rich capitalists that belong to China's communist party,
2 the tax and kill the poor to save the corrupted banks

we do not live in the free world, even after the fall of communism.
world (except China) is living the Banks dictorship and is goig to become like India,
were people work not for living, but because they own to banks and state,

Templar
12-12-12, 14:40
He could mean the misery, robbery, and crisis that banks like Goldman's Sachs's Liehman's brought,
Paying only chief managers and head workers, and leaving unemployed and send to misery simple workers,

he could mean the 'one man sale' μονοπωλιον monopoly that some private have,

and this not conspiracy,
People can give data and names explaining what is happening,
if the data are ok then the truth is according the eye you see them,
and you know about Goldman sachs and Liehman that invest in BUBBLES and send MANY WORKERS IN DESPAIR that could be used succesfully elsewhere.

today Banking system is not like 17 18 century,
today bankers have been 'overpowered' and someone must stop them, cause they bring corruption, and stupidity, and poverty,

I a person drops to misshundle or runs out, state does not care,
if a bank runs out or misshundle, state is raising taxes and gets money from poor to save the Bank,
THAT is disgusting in the Free world,

the 2 most disgustic things in modern world are
1 the rich capitalists that belong to China's communist party,
2 the tax and kill the poor to save the corrupted banks

we do not live in the free world, even after the fall of communism.
world (except China) is living the Banks dictorship and is goig to become like India,
were people work not for living, but because they own to banks and state,

The problems you mentioned wouldn't exist if people simply didn't borrow any money. People should just save money and not spend it on worthless clothes, jewelry, electronics etc. Smart people only spend money on things they NEED to survive (like food and water). The banks will only have power over you if you allow them to. Don't become their slave, stay independent and you will have a good life.

Yetos
12-12-12, 15:25
The problems you mentioned wouldn't exist if people simply didn't borrow any money. People should just save money and not spend it on worthless clothes, jewelry, electronics etc. Smart people only spend money on things they NEED to survive (like food and water). The banks will only have power over you if you allow them to. Don't become their slave, stay independent and you will have a good life.

NO tottaly NO

I never took money as loan from golman sachs,
yet I own them money,

why cause an ex prime minister in order to achieve the miracle of Euro he decided to make a 'deal' with them,
All was done in hidden and came out to light 8 years after,
but it was too late,
because of the priviledge that minister have, he can avoid to be judged,

so I own to bank that I never took any money,

besides is also the case of Proton-Bank,
Bank run out, Bank become a failure,
but instead state to close in prison the manager and sell all the fortune that bank had,
they charge citizen with extra tax to save Bank, buying 700 million depth which had 240 million fortune in land buildings at the price of 960 million, with my taxes,

THAT IS THE WRONG IN FREE WORLD,
THE WORLD IS NOT FREE, SINCE BANKERS THROUGH LENDING MONEY TO GOVERMANTS THEY MAKE ME A SLAVE,

I never took money from Goldman sachs, yet I own to Goldman Sachs how you explain that?

when referendums are not done, Democracy does not work,
Neither is US neither in EU neither in Antarctica
the miracle of Iceland is the way that democracy should work,
and I think that Nombel price should be given to their president who make the referndums, and change Constitution and not fake political tricks,


for more than 10 years I pay extra taxes so to cover the money from a minister of defence and Thyssen group, yet UBS is not saying how much deposits he has,
and stupid EU laws and 'civilation' does allow to his properties to be sold, so as a mule I pay again,
I own another bank cause of a stupid law made by bankers.

WHEN A BANK EARNS MONEY I DON"T GET A CENT.
WHY WHEN A BANK COLLAPSE I MUST PAY THE DAMAGE?

STOP SAVING BANKS with innocent people taxation, AND FACE THEM AS CITIZENS NOT AS RULERS. SEND THEM TO PRISON,
if a doctor make a wrong diagnosis face judges and prison,
if a banker make a wrong why they are saving him? he is not human?

Let the hoax of modern Banking system collapse. don't save it with taxation of poor,

LeBrok
12-12-12, 17:07
The problems you mentioned wouldn't exist if people simply didn't borrow any money. People should just save money and not spend it on worthless clothes, jewelry, electronics etc. Smart people only spend money on things they NEED to survive (like food and water). The banks will only have power over you if you allow them to. Don't become their slave, stay independent and you will have a good life.

What about really smart people, borrowing money from banks, investing wisely or opening businesses, and getting rich in the process.
Actually if not ability to borrow money from banks, the development of our Western World would be way behind. Steve Jobs had to borrow big millions twice to make Apple happen. Generally speaking, every time you take something to your hand, there is a business behind it, which started with borrowed money.

The debts to avoid are the credit card ones. Usually high interest and borrowed to by more shoes, and generally more stuff. After all we come from hunter-gatherer line, with strong gathering instinct, especially in women, and we have build a great new gathering places called stores and shops. So, try to stop us...lol

LeBrok
12-12-12, 17:17
WHEN A BANK EARNS MONEY I DON"T GET A CENT.
WHY WHEN A BANK COLLAPSE I MUST PAY THE DAMAGE?

,

Yetos, do us a favor and find financial statements of biggest Greek banks, check how much taxes they paid and post here. Once you on it, tell us how many people they employ together.

Yetos
12-12-12, 20:09
Yetos, do us a favor and find financial statements of biggest Greek banks, check how much taxes they paid and post here. Once you on it, tell us how many people they employ together.

Le brok do me a favor,
tell what Bank produce?
tell me how much tax pay when they are balanced equal to 0%
remember what Hungary did and then you realize,
Le brok Banks in greece have 3500-5000 if we include the c0llect0ors,
means 5000 people who do not work, play with people's dream, and suck the blood of workers.
means 5000 who live by the hiden treaties like Goldman Sachs and Greek goverment,
means 5000 people who produce nothing and could heve been in another job,
means that in case of Proton bank for 20 years workers produce a minus that have to payed by my taxes,
and not by selling the banks properties,

Le brok understand it Banks are giving jobs by producing nothing, and when they run out they get paid by raising my taxes,
we could easily used that workers elsewhere,

do me a favour, tell why I have to pay taxes to a banker that works in good conditions, has good insurance, when he runs out, and why the bank does not pay taxes, when my small businness drops out of control?

I am saying that both multinational and Bankers should be treated like common business and not with speacial treatment,
I am saying that Liehman shpould pay also the simple workers and not the '....' who drop her out with bad design,
If I make a mistake, I pay, why does not the Bank?
that is what I say,

we are living the times of Banker dictatorship, since I have to pay taxes to 'save' the corrupted Bankers

3 500 work in private banks with job only to advertise and sell very expensive their money, with creation, with no imagination, with no mercy, and produce nothing, they just earn money from my deposits for their shelves and when are 'done, they ask for state to save them by donating them my taxes,

THAT IS PARASITIC

consider how many banks are for development and how many really develop.

and I am not talking about loans to people,
the one who took loans to buy whatever crap like clothes should pay,

I am talking about Banks that broke due to misshundle or stealing , and I have to pay the damage

ty I think i make my shelve clear.
I closed a small but good building corporation that with friends founded, cause we predicted future,
but am not willing to save a banker that worked in good conditions, with climas, in clean enviroment that was not even looking at me, cause his policies drop him out of businness,
send him to prison, and sell its properties so the damage to be the less,
but the time I close my businness and become a farmer why I must pay for him?
why I have to sell my properties wich i make by my work so to save him?


Free world is cruel Lebrok

if capitalism is for Bankers then it should be also in low classes,
same if Communism is low classes then should be also for elites,
both systems are nothing more than unhonest ruling nomenclassthat use different laws for low and high class

I took nothing when bank earned,
why I have to pay the damage?

sell the corupted Banker and Politician properties, and not mine, to solve crisis,

Free world is cruel Lebrok, and an old rhyme say 'Show me your friend to tell you who you are'


Le brok all over the world Banks have profit bigger than interest, but they always show almost 0-0,1% profit, cause the rest they spend them in advertising, in footbal clubs, in paintings, in musical shows, so they pay tax 0%

besides all over the world usury is illegal.

PS
with few friends we make a small cooperation and opened a building construction company,
we had 21-27 workers, that produce, working at temp 42 C to >0 C, not with clima, but with concrete, dust and mud, not sitting in a chair, but carrying weights, payed from 35-50 E per day + insurance half than a simple bank worker gets paid. when we close these 21 person were unemployed, but payed to every last cent, , why a bank worker should not have the same treaty?
if I own them money my propertie would be sold to give to money,
why the Banker (not bank worker) must have another treaty?'
why I payed my workers, and not Liehman Bro?
IS THAT THE JUSTICE OF FREE WORLD? OR THE JUSTICE OF BANKERS?
i was checked (my economical books) twice a year,
who was checking Liehman? shouldn't he go to prison?

PS2
that is justice Lebrok.
the same laws for me and you
in your oath as US citizen you say Justice for all.
not for all except Bankers (bank owners)


PS3

Lebrok when i had a corporation i payed my taxes as a bank
we realise soon enough so close, WE DID SAID 27 WORKERS WILL STAY UNEMPLOYED neither STATE SAVE MY COMPANY. STATE DID CARe IF I CLOSE MY COMPANY.
THEN WHY IS CONCERNING TO SAVE ANOTHER'S COMPANY? CAUSE IS A CHOSEN ONE? A BANKER? ARE BANKER'S DIVINE CREATURES? DID GOD CREATED BANKERS THE 8 DAY?
why to save a bank when is 'run out' and not my corporation?

I think I am clear enough and not ridiculous.

Data are given many times in my posts about EU and Greek crisis,
perhaps you never notice them, or consider them as global conspiracy ridiculous.

LeBrok
12-12-12, 20:32
Le brok do me a favor,
tell what Bank produce?

They produce financial products, like your bank account, and loans, that you pay for them with fees or interest. They also pay taxes and employ hundred of thousands people in Greece, directly and indirectly through busneses working for banks like security, computers etc. They pay taxes too.


I took nothing when bank earned,
why I have to pay the damage?
Yes you did. Indirectly their taxes paid for your roads, hospital and social system for poor Greeks (even the ones that never paid taxes and never worked).
But you didn't bother to look into financial statements of your banks, did you. You're just happy to spit on something that you really don't know.

Do you have an answer to this?:
Why do banks and capitalism work well in Canada and Germany, but not in Greece?
And please spare us the long posts about your philosophy on the subject. From time to time it's ok, but you post the same stuff every time in a log post. I doubt that anyone reads them anymore. It's a waste of time.

Templar
12-12-12, 20:35
I am talking about Banks that broke due to misshundle or stealing , and I have to pay the damage

Don't they eventually pay back the money that the government gave them?

LeBrok
12-12-12, 20:43
Don't they eventually pay back the money that the government gave them?
To my knowledge all the US banks did pay back. Canadian banks didn't need any help at all.
Not sure about Greek banks.

Templar
12-12-12, 21:29
To my knowledge all the US banks did pay back. Canadian banks didn't need any help at all.
Not sure about Greek banks.

If they did pay it back, I don't see the problem. From what limited knowledge of the Greek crisis that I have, it seems mostly to have been caused by high government corruption and widespread tax evasion in the country. What do you think LeBrok?

Yetos
12-12-12, 21:52
They produce financial products, like your bank account, and loans, that you pay for them with fees or interest. They also pay taxes and employ hundred of thousands people in Greece, directly and indirectly through busneses working for banks like security, computers etc. They pay taxes too.

Yes you did. Indirectly their taxes paid for your roads, hospital and social system for poor Greeks (even the ones that never paid taxes and never worked).
But you didn't bother to look into financial statements of your banks, did you. You're just happy to spit on something that you really don't know.

Do you have an answer to this?:
Why do banks and capitalism work well in Canada and Germany, but not in Greece?
And please spare us the long posts about your philosophy on the subject. From time to time it's ok, but you post the same stuff every time in a log post. I doubt that anyone reads them anymore. It's a waste of time.

No offence but are we leaving in the same planet?

Roads hospitals etc are done by bank taxation?,
Bank is never paying taxes, nowhere cause always they show profir 0-0,1%, they make their profit paintings, musical shows and football advertising,
Policy of the bank to spend money to advertise her shelve and not pay taxes, that is why Hungary started to tax the total amount and not the profit of bank.

1) All roads are done by loans not by tax,
banks give loans to states with interest!!!! different than the interest that a state can borrow from central bank, 2x-3x higher which is clear usegy or robbery,

2) Liehman brothers did not payed simple workers, only high class workers, the state payed the simple workers in US when liehman collapse, means state tax citizens to pay the damage that a bank did.

3) how many of Liehman Bro went to prison? who paid the damage their bubbles did?
same with my country,

4) No when a bank earns all profit are going to shares and chief managers, not to me, Banks pay the lowest tax that can be done, cause they spend money in concerts in order to advertise and low the profit,
when a bank collapse I pay the damage like in Greece and in US where state payed simple workers with tax money,

have ever heard what say the constitution of Iceland? have you ever heard what they change? and why they kicked all money mechanisms? cause there democracy worked,

LeBrok
12-12-12, 22:54
No offence but are we leaving in the same planet?

Roads hospitals etc are done by bank taxation?,
Bank is never paying taxes, nowhere cause always they show profir 0-0,1%, they make their profit paintings, musical shows and football advertising, ,

Canada’s six largest banks paid $8.65 billion in taxes in Canada in 2011 to all levels of government.

http://www.cba.ca/en/media-room/50-backgrounders-on-banking-issues/119-bank-revenues-and-earnings-profits

If you don't believe this website, you can find banks financial statements online, audited by independent accountants.

Yetos
13-12-12, 00:46
Canada’s six largest banks paid $8.65 billion in taxes in Canada in 2011 to all levels of government.

http://www.cba.ca/en/media-room/50-backgrounders-on-banking-issues/119-bank-revenues-and-earnings-profits

If you don't believe this website, you can find banks financial statements online, audited by independent accountants.

there is no reason not to trust you,
but numbers show nothing,

1) Banks pay 8 billion taxes but how much they earn by giving loans to goverment?
2 is the tax among a bank and a private company the same? I mean a small business man pays according his income from 105 to 60%? how much %? pays the bank? is it the same scale?
that is something that you must notice,
3) from where bank earn that money, if from loans to citizens ok, but the bank gave loans to state? how much will earn to pay so high taxes?

I mean bank give 10 to goverment in one year bank get 10,5 so 0,5 bank give the interest 0,2 so in return to people 10,2 remain 0,3 from wich workers who 'produce' (under discuss) the project get the 2/3 means 0,1 clear profit,
so how much remains 0,1 to be taxed, how high is tax in Banks? 10% 20%? surely not 40-60% which is to privateers, so we have 0,09 that goes to Bank owners.
so the bank did what? gather 10, gave back 10,2 earn from nothing 0,3 which the state must pay, but how?
only way is to put tolls, raise taxes, etc,
so that 0,3 minus the tax o,01 is just a parasitic product that some smart thought and not us, we just bite the bait like fish,
cause if a state pays higher than interest, and gets taxes lower than the difference that means that state is dump.
and believe me that what 0,3 is big numbers, at least x30 the money payed for tax,
( I mean bankers had clear earns x7, x9 that 8 = 56-72 billion that Canadians will be forced to pay as raise of taxes tomorrow when these banks will run out or mishundle or wrong targets)

we don't have to finish Harvard to make a simple analysis how it works,

it is the softer problems in introduction of διαχειριση κεφαλαιων (management of founds) the first day in every university.


once in my life i took a loan cause i was forced by a stupid law, which i payed with 7% interest, when the deposits had 2,5%
If i could i would avoid it, cause I had the money, but in order to achive a goal and get some help from state and EU as new business man i was forced to take 30% of the founds from bank.
I don't know if that law exist in other countries but i find it a disguistic method.
in order to get 6 % from state and 14% from EU you must deposit 51% to a bank, take loan 30% and then you are allowed to use the rest 20%. !!!!

LeBrok
13-12-12, 02:16
there is no reason not to trust you,
but numbers show nothing,

1) Banks pay 8 billion taxes but how much they earn by giving loans to goverment?

I'm glad we agree that banks pay taxes after all.



we don't have to finish Harvard to make a simple analysis how it works,

We don't, but please take your time and learn how basic economy and finances work.


As long as we are talking about taxes and benefits business bring to society, here is an interesting tidbit on biggest taxpayers in USA.
Yetos, feel free to post Greek companies info on the subject.

ExxonMobil in 2011 made $27.3 billion in cash payments for income taxes. Chevron paid $17 billion and ConocoPhillips $10.6 billion. And not only were these the highest amounts in absolute terms, when compared with the rest of the 25 most profitable U.S. companies (see our slideshow for the full rundown of who paid what (http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mef45fkfh/1-exxonmobil/#gallerycontent")), the trio also had the highest effective tax rates. Exxon’s tax rate was 42.9%, Chevron’s was 48.3% and Conoco’s was 41.5%. That’s even higher than the 35% U.S. federal statutory rate, which is already the highest tax rate among developed nations.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2012/04/16/which-megacorps-pay-megataxes/

Wow, one Exxon could pay Greek debt in few years just from taxes.

LeBrok
13-12-12, 02:38
If they did pay it back, I don't see the problem. From what limited knowledge of the Greek crisis that I have, it seems mostly to have been caused by high government corruption and widespread tax evasion in the country. What do you think LeBrok?

Exactly, too much corruption, tax evasion, bad economic and anti-business polices, too much socialism and social assistance, not enough capitalism, politicians that don't know squat about economy and balanced budget and this leading to too much debt.
The saddest thing is that this situation happened at least 3 times in last 100 years, and Greeks were unable to learn from previous mistakes. Maybe the reason behind re-occurrence of their financial problems is that (Yetos being the prime example) they always blame external forces (even referring to its government as "them") and they never look deep inside to find the flaws.

I think, for the longer hall there are two choices. Either Greece leaves Euro and rules herself any way she likes, or Greeks fiscal polices are controlled by EU economists. EU can't allow Greeks to run themselves, because (by Greek tradition) they will get into fiscal mess every generation, 25 years.

I think, they should be forgiven most of their debt, and let go. It's better for EU, and most Greeks will agree (think) that it's better for them.

Templar
13-12-12, 10:19
Exactly, too much corruption, tax evasion, bad economic and anti-business polices, too much socialism and social assistance, not enough capitalism, politicians that don't know squat about economy and balanced budget and this leading to too much debt.
The saddest thing is that this situation happened at least 3 times in last 100 years, and Greeks were unable to learn from previous mistakes. Maybe the reason behind re-occurrence of their financial problems is that (Yetos being the prime example) they always blame external forces (even referring to its government as "them") and they never look deep inside to find the flaws.

I think, for the longer hall there are two choices. Either Greece leaves Euro and rules herself any way she likes, or Greeks fiscal polices are controlled by EU economists. EU can't allow Greeks to run themselves, because (by Greek tradition) they will get into fiscal mess every generation, 25 years.

I think, they should be forgiven most of their debt, and let go. It's better for EU, and most Greeks will agree (think) that it's better for them.

Yeah, it makes sense. Third world countries are forgiven their debts all the time. Why shouldn't this also apply to a first world country down on its luck as well. I read that the cause of the high tax evasion rates is mostly explained by the fact that Greece (and Southern Europe in general) had a high self-employment rate. When you are your own boss it is easier hiding your profits, and therefore also your real tax rate.

Greece is also a very religious country. The stereotype is that religious people are easier to manipulate, I wonder if this had anything to do with it. I know that in my own country (Bosnia) religion is used by politicians to distract them from the economic problems. Churches and Mosques get built, yet very rarely useful things such as factories.

LeBrok
13-12-12, 19:42
Greece is also a very religious country. The stereotype is that religious people are easier to manipulate, I wonder if this had anything to do with it. I know that in my own country (Bosnia) religion is used by politicians to distract them from the economic problems. Churches and Mosques get built, yet very rarely useful things such as factories.

Could be, as one can notice that less religious countries are more economically prosperous, at least in Europe.

In my mind it is also strongly tied to emotions. The further South you go the more emotional people become, it even holds truth beyond Mediterranean Sea, once we get to Africa, even more emotional people are. Further North you go the less emotional people become, also described as "cold". I guess, most of us can agree, (I'm yet to look for some studies) that strong emotions can distort logic. Anyway, my observation is that clearer logic goes with better economy, where "emotional logic" equals with not so good one.
Of course there are many more reasons behind good or bad economies, but unclouded logic could build order and stability in politics, market and society in general, the base of good economy.
This political and economic stability is often ruined in the South. Emotional people have harder time to compromise, as exaggerated saying goes "they either love you or will kill you". They also tend to bend the logic to vindicate themselves (make themselves special), and blame others for all the bad (Sparky will know psychological term for this :) ). These elements create mess, and render people blind to learning on previous mistakes.

Having said that, I'm not against emotions at all, I'm emotional myself, lol. People of South have advantage of stronger family ties, traditions, good food, taste in cloths and cars among others. Most people of North dream about living by Mediterranean Sea among emotional, warm and expressive people.

nordicwarrior
13-12-12, 20:41
That's why I admire the stance Iceland has taken during this economic tailspin (aka depression). They weighed their options as a people using cool heads and reason, looked at the pros and cons...and then told the multi-national bankers to pound sand.

ElHorsto
14-12-12, 07:15
That's why I admire the stance Iceland has taken during this economic tailspin (aka depression). They weighed their options as a people using cool heads and reason, looked at the pros and cons...and then told the multi-national bankers to pound sand.

Iceland is a remarkable case, but I doubt it has much to do with their cool reasoning. It has rather to do with:
1. Iceland being a homogeneous society similar to Norway and perhaps Finland where all people share the same morals and interest, as opposed to EU or especially Greece, which is a very fragmented society by super-rich oligarchs and clans.
2. The lack of fragmentation makes corruption very difficult because individual excesses become more visible and get prevented more early
3. The lack of corruption preserves democracy.
4. Democratic unity is strength during negotiation with banks, countries and organizations
5. Iceland is perhaps too tiny to be very important, which can be an advantage

nordicwarrior
14-12-12, 07:48
All excellent points, I agree with all five. But reason did play a role too, it was simple math. Plus Iceland can get much of it's food from the ocean, which comes in handy. I saw recently on a travel video that an Icelandic chef wouldn't use olive oil in a dish because it wasn't produced locally. Tells me they are fostering a sense of independence.

ElHorsto
14-12-12, 13:24
All excellent points, I agree with all five. But reason did play a role too, it was simple math. Plus Iceland can get much of it's food from the ocean, which comes in handy. I saw recently on a travel video that an Icelandic chef wouldn't use olive oil in a dish because it wasn't produced locally. Tells me they are fostering a sense of independence.

Yes, they always have been very proud of their independence, probably because they experienced foreign rule a very long time.
Regarding reason, it did not prevent Iceland from getting the biggest financial crisis a country ever experienced, mainly because the've let their banks become so big compared to the country's economic size like nowhere else ever before in history. The three biggest banks played riskful gambling while the population celebrated one debt party after another by financing big cars, houses, boats, based on banking illusions and promises. All made big mistakes together by believing in a kind of new economy more than Greece and Spain did. Now they seem to get away with their mistakes probably due to regained reason, but without their sense of unity this would not help so much I think.

Yetos
19-12-12, 15:01
well I am returning,

1 400 000 000 swiss franks to UBS as fine for 'handling' LIBOR,

as you no matter bank pay some taxes, or some fine they are above law again,

I have found no estimation what UBS earned from that control of LIBOR, no body goes to prison, and a fine and all are ok, with out more search, case is closed, with just a fine, no matter how many people could have comited suicide from that handling-controling'

the honest bank who pay taxes and 'help me' !!!!!

LeBrok
19-12-12, 19:36
well I am returning,

1 400 000 000 swiss franks to UBS as fine for 'handling' LIBOR,

as you no matter bank pay some taxes, or some fine they are above law again,

I have found no estimation what UBS earned from that control of LIBOR, no body goes to prison, and a fine and all are ok, with out more search, case is closed, with just a fine, no matter how many people could have comited suicide from that handling-controling'

the honest bank who pay taxes and 'help me' !!!!!

I'm sorry but by your logic it goes like this:
Fact, some banks were exposed braking the law, or going bunkrupt. Your conclusion: all banks are bad and banking system should be closed down.

Don't you see, that by the same token you condemned yourself:
Fact, some Greeks don't pay taxes, some are even corrupt. Conclusion (according to your logic): all Greeks are bad, I'm bad and corrupt too, because I'm Greek.
Fact, some tourist services in Greece, like B&B, are run badly; bad food, dirty rooms, charging extras, plus some hide income, not to pay taxes. Conclusion: all B&B are bad for us, let's close the whole industry down.

Let's close the Greece down!

Templar
19-12-12, 20:52
I'm sorry but by your logic it goes like this:
Fact, some banks were exposed braking the law, or going bunkrupt. Your conclusion: all banks are bad and banking system should be closed down.

Don't you see, that by the same token you condemned yourself:
Fact, some Greeks don't pay taxes, some are even corrupt. Conclusion (according to your logic): all Greeks are bad, I'm bad and corrupt too, because I'm Greek.
Fact, some tourist services in Greece, like B&B, are run badly; bad food, dirty rooms, charging extras, plus some hide income, not to pay taxes. Conclusion: all B&B are bad for us, let's close the whole industry down.

Let's close the Greece down!

I think you both have a lot of common ground. You both don't really like most banks, but at the same time you are pessimistic about governments and corruption. I guess the only difference is your views on how harmful banks are.

Yetos
19-12-12, 21:58
I'm sorry but by your logic it goes like this:
Fact, some banks were exposed braking the law, or going bunkrupt. Your conclusion: all banks are bad and banking system should be closed down.

Don't you see, that by the same token you condemned yourself:
Fact, some Greeks don't pay taxes, some are even corrupt. Conclusion (according to your logic): all Greeks are bad, I'm bad and corrupt too, because I'm Greek.
Fact, some tourist services in Greece, like B&B, are run badly; bad food, dirty rooms, charging extras, plus some hide income, not to pay taxes. Conclusion: all B&B are bad for us, let's close the whole industry down.

Let's close the Greece down!

:laughing:

the other side of the moon has another picture,

some Banks pay taxes, so lets support banks,
some banks created (stupid, non productive?) jobs so lets support Banks,

so lets open more banks,
because 5-6 banks in Canada pay taxes banks are good, but what will happen if they collapse? who will pay damage,
to conclude my debate friend,
feeel free to tell us how many banks broke the law, how many collapse, what was the charge in simple people,
and last how many bankers went to prison?

your logic is nuclear bomb is tremendous and we have it, so it is good, lets make more bombs.
conservative in food are good for preserve food with no electricity, lets create more preserved foods with conservatives,
If general-hamburger Donald Mc chicken pays big number taxes, then is ok, feed the world with NH4Cl.

I rember Mao in 50's wanted to create so much steel that took farmers to produce everywhere steel, that created hunger cause less farmers worked, But no, according mao it was the sparrows that eat the grain of people, so he make a factory of small air-guns and created patrols to kill sparrows and birds.
yes grain was enough next year, but diseases from mosquitos were full, so he created jobs by giving a net to hunt mosquitos etc etc
accept it, Banking system has gained overpower that must be reduced,
by controling LIBOR and rest means that free-will of market does not work, so no free world,

LeBrok
19-12-12, 22:40
I think you both have a lot of common ground. You both don't really like most banks, but at the same time you are pessimistic about governments and corruption. I guess the only difference is your views on how harmful banks are.
Pretty much so. Generally I think the Banks are not much different than other industries, there are bad and good depending on individual businesses. They are all run by people, people are not perfect, therefore businesses or governments are not perfect. Most depends on quality of a boss and top management.
I'm very impressed and in favor of new companies run by entrepreneurs/visionaries. I'm usually less impressed by big old companies run by bureaucratic clerks, most interested only in making money, accompanied by mediocre product and bad customer service. They are only marginally better than bureaucrats in governments, and worse on some occasions. Probably the main difference is that clerks in companies had to be kept more accountable on more occasions than government clerks, who always can count on fresh taxpayers money to spend.
I believe that our political system is overdue for big reforms (nothing much changed, in political structures, since the fall of monarchies after WWI) for XXI century world. On other hand our capitalistic-free market economies are evolving with times (almost by natural selection) adjusting to competition and correcting due to costumers demand. Unfortunately, too many unqualified government bureaucrats have power to change economic and financial environment. To make matter worst, even economic experts are lost in today's complexity of financial markets. The financial and economic systems are so complex, coupled with psychology of groups, either customers or investors, that even the best computer models can't calculate consequences of changes to the markets.

My answer to causes of Greek economic maladies is that human incompetence in understanding economy and its complexity (in Greece and outside) is the cause of their problem. Yetos claims that evil forces of antigreek financial conspiracy is the cause.
I say "look mostly inside for the problem", Yetos says "look mostly outside for the problem."

Templar
19-12-12, 23:22
I believe that our political system is overdue for big reforms (nothing much changed, in political structures, since the fall of monarchies after WWI) for XXI century world.

Well I don't know if you would consider this major, but the West did adopt a lot of socialist policies in order to compete with the Soviet Bloc. Greater government regulation was also a major reform. Both were pretty positive developments, though I think that the welfare system of many countries is far too generous. Instead of giving unemployed people money for free, it would be more productive to just give them a temporary minimum-wage government job.

nordicwarrior
20-12-12, 05:19
We are facing another "fiscal cliff" here in the U.S., which doesn't concern me as much as the powers that be tell me it should.
What does make me slightly nervous is that internet connectivity could be impacted--then I would miss putting all my crackpot ideas out into the cyber universe.

Having a free exchange of ideas over national borders like this does seem too good to be true sometimes.

Yetos
20-12-12, 14:59
Pretty much so. Generally I think the Banks are not much different than other industries, there are bad and good depending on individual businesses. They are all run by people, people are not perfect, therefore businesses or governments are not perfect. Most depends on quality of a boss and top management.
I'm very impressed and in favor of new companies run by entrepreneurs/visionaries. I'm usually less impressed by big old companies run by bureaucratic clerks, most interested only in making money, accompanied by mediocre product and bad customer service. They are only marginally better than bureaucrats in governments, and worse on some occasions. Probably the main difference is that clerks in companies had to be kept more accountable on more occasions than government clerks, who always can count on fresh taxpayers money to spend.
I believe that our political system is overdue for big reforms (nothing much changed, in political structures, since the fall of monarchies after WWI) for XXI century world. On other hand our capitalistic-free market economies are evolving with times (almost by natural selection) adjusting to competition and correcting due to costumers demand. Unfortunately, too many unqualified government bureaucrats have power to change economic and financial environment. To make matter worst, even economic experts are lost in today's complexity of financial markets. The financial and economic systems are so complex, coupled with psychology of groups, either customers or investors, that even the best computer models can't calculate consequences of changes to the markets.

My answer to causes of Greek economic maladies is that human incompetence in understanding economy and its complexity (in Greece and outside) is the cause of their problem. Yetos claims that evil forces of antigreek financial conspiracy is the cause.
I say "look mostly inside for the problem", Yetos says "look mostly outside for the problem."


Milan municipal (Italy)

4 banks among them deutsche bamk and JP Morgan had sold 'smart' project to the Milano municipal,
the result .
Milan municipal lost 105 000 000 E
Banks earned 90 000 000 E
after years in courts and judge trials, Milan municipal manage to gain owning of some buildings estimated by banks as 80 000 000 (name value, we don't know the correct comercial value)
means that at end the banks earned 10 000 000 E, and Milano citizens found their shelves to have 25 000 000 E
which at a population of 2 million is 12 500 E each city habbitant
I am not from Italy, but I wonder who went to prison?
that what I am asking, which Banker went to prison for illegal activity?

why we don't close at least the Illegal banks, since some are honest as you say?

the case of antigreek behavor by banker is obvious,
with their politician partners they make hiden contracts, secret agreements, etc to put a heavy weight to greek people so to force him sell cheap its geological source,
the essay and preposition from Deutsch bank is clear.
although soon will learn more about that.

search the case of Goldman Sachs and one ex prime minister,

we are living in the ages of madness, where no body is allowed to make usery, but Bank mafia can, where market are tottaly controled like libor case, where banksters can harash citizens through illegal products, and when the time of αποδιοπομπαιος τραγος (scape goat) is not a goat but nations and simple people, we don't send the banker to prison, but we harash common poor people, or even destroy societies, put labels,
tottaly unforgiven, cause the poor man's lamp can not save the world, anymore,
we need to slain the big fat pig that is still free to eat more people,

for 35 years of Greece in EU nobody said something,
for 35 years was the poor neighbor,
for 35 years nobody ever looked or tried to help the situation of corruption or economy, cause they earn from that
and one day when oil and gas is found...
Greeks are lazy, greeks are sick, greeks are ...
and the day after, before the searching ship gets its results, the executioner's other hand makes a preposition, how will you call that?

to close I think that these 4 banks had found a smart way to get rid of their waste to the Milanese people and also earn from that.
yet although Judge said Illegal, nobody goes to prison or to pay the damage but the poor people.
Money talks, but when money talk much and nobody stopes it, then maybe guns will talk.
from ancient times to modern, when people lose their dignity by the one 'power -ruler' (either religious, economical, etc) we have big changes and big wars.


More?
Manhatan Judges found 420 000 000 $ in hiden accounts in 3 banks,
seems like hiden money is what makes bankers popular,
how many taxes were lost by that?
have we ever thought how much are the hiden money in banks?
consider it unofficial but few months before i heard about trillions of dollars

LeBrok
20-12-12, 21:26
the case of antigreek behavor by banker is obvious,


Why banks would be anti-Greek but not anti-Canada or anti-Singapore?

Yetos
21-12-12, 01:03
Why banks would be anti-Greek but not anti-Canada or anti-Singapore?

I never said that banks are anti-Greek,
I said that Greek crisis seems to be organised for years,
that Greek crisis is not so tremendous are some said,
but the whole case was designed before, and sudenly broke, with no explanation of the action behind the scene,
which came to light by a mistake of a message carrier,
same with Spain,
ECB was watching for years and knew, while Greek people did not, and sudenly you wake up one day and they say to you that you must pay for something that you did not buy.
and then come some gorillas and force you to do what you not, and seems no light to tunnel, and when you are kneeled sudenly you hear a solution by the executioner bank,
that is not conspiracy is fact,
I said about a set up case, not anti-Greek policy,
just watch, with 13% taxes nobody wanted to invest in Grrece, and when tax goes 23% sudenly many and big prepositions,
is that logic to you?

LeBrok
21-12-12, 03:03
Are you trying to confuse me, or you have short memory?

I never said that banks are anti-Greek,




the case of antigreek behavor by banker is obvious,

Yetos
21-12-12, 11:00
Are you trying to confuse me, or you have short memory?

read again my previous post, and the 2 closed.
it is clear.

the anti-Greek policy started 4 years ago, when the 'estimation work' in oil finished,


bankers were lending with 10% when bayback was 95% at 2000
bankers were lending with 4% when Greek bayback was 113% of what earned, 2006
and were lending with 8% when bayback drop to 106%,
and stop when the estimation work on gas in cyprus finished
what exctract you may get?
when ability to bayback raise (106%) sudenly comes 3 man and drop it again to 115%with the measures they get.
the nobody wants to invest or lend, and after a work we see from Russia to Qatar to Deutchland and china all want to invest with taxes 23% and not with taxes 13%,
what kind of economical maths are these?

LeBrok
21-12-12, 17:39
read again my previous post, and the 2 closed.
it is clear.

the anti-Greek policy started 4 years ago, when the 'estimation work' in oil finished,


bankers were lending with 10% when bayback was 95% at 2000
bankers were lending with 4% when Greek bayback was 113% of what earned, 2006
and were lending with 8% when bayback drop to 106%,
and stop when the estimation work on gas in cyprus finished
what exctract you may get?
when ability to bayback raise (106%) sudenly comes 3 man and drop it again to 115%with the measures they get.
the nobody wants to invest or lend, and after a work we see from Russia to Qatar to Deutchland and china all want to invest with taxes 23% and not with taxes 13%,
what kind of economical maths are these?
Honestly Yetos, I have no freaking idea what you are talking about, and even when you try to explain (in other posts) it doesn't make sense to me.

nordicwarrior
21-12-12, 19:52
Yetos, I feel your pain. Greece isn't the only party to suffer because of the global banking crisis. And yes it was made worse by systemic corruption--but life is short. Plant a garden if you have a plot of land, start fishing if your near a water source, get friendly with neighbors you may not know very well. Becoming independent from the financial grid is the best option, and it's one the banks deplore. Look to Iceland for an example.

Living well is the best revenge.

Templar
21-12-12, 20:16
Yetos, I feel your pain. Greece isn't the only party to suffer because of the global banking crisis. And yes it was made worse by systemic corruption--but life is short. Plant a garden if you have a plot of land, start fishing if your near a water source, get friendly with neighbors you may not know very well. Becoming independent from the financial grid is the best option, and it's one the banks deplore. Look to Iceland for an example.

Living well is the best revenge.

All man really needs is sex, food, clean water, clean air, someone interesting to talk to, and perhaps a little bit of nature. Everything else is brainwashing to make us thing we need materialism. People don't need expensive cars, designer clothing, jewelry, etc.

Yetos
21-12-12, 21:11
Yetos, I feel your pain. Greece isn't the only party to suffer because of the global banking crisis. And yes it was made worse by systemic corruption--but life is short. Plant a garden if you have a plot of land, start fishing if your near a water source, get friendly with neighbors you may not know very well. Becoming independent from the financial grid is the best option, and it's one the banks deplore. Look to Iceland for an example.

Living well is the best revenge.

that is what I do, I predicted or feel it 5 years ago, and I close everything,
yet I can't fell ok, when my mother had to pay extra tax 3 times her monthly retirement salary, which is 45% of what she got, her insuline demands reach 150 E per month and her retirement is 380 E from 850, and the same time the .... force me to stay in Euro, force me to pay moore to solve a crisis they created, to pay what they steal etc,
No politician went to prison,
and the time that we know that oil is about to come out, (I knew it years before) the prime minister goes in secret to bank to sell the deposits, and we learn it from press,
how will you feel if you reach 70, pay 34 years stamps, and sudenly no insuline, and you pay to pay the damage that banks did or the stolen of politicians,
it reminds me middle ages, and tax collectors with soldiers who are coming to take your grain by force at not a normal ratio.

and if you are a fisherman, you have invitation by me to come for fishing,

Yetos
21-12-12, 21:17
All man really needs is sex, food, clean water, clean air, someone interesting to talk to, and perhaps a little bit of nature. Everything else is brainwashing to make us thing we need materialism. People don't need expensive cars, designer clothing, jewelry, etc.

I agree, but what you will say to your child when she tells you that she wants to study more and you know she is able?
what you tell your father who worked 40 years when he has to buy his medicine. that he has to die so goverment save the money to pay? and what about the money-stamps he payed?

the case of Milan is clear what is happening, the crisis is not in people, the crisis is a 'good reason' that found some to harash people, kill the elder, and murder the dreams and efforts of younger.

Templar
21-12-12, 22:44
I agree, but what you will say to your child when she tells you that she wants to study more and you know she is able?
what you tell your father who worked 40 years when he has to buy his medicine. that he has to die so goverment save the money to pay? and what about the money-stamps he payed?

the case of Milan is clear what is happening, the crisis is not in people, the crisis is a 'good reason' that found some to harash people, kill the elder, and murder the dreams and efforts of younger.

Education should be free for those with good grades, and healthcare should be free for everybody. Taxes on rich should be relatively high (but not insanely high like in Scandinavian countries), military spending should be low, and free welfare money should be replaced by an increase in low-paying government jobs. All three of the things I just mentioned would ensure that debt doesn't rise too high.

Yetos
21-12-12, 23:59
Education should be free for those with good grades, and healthcare should be free for everybody. Taxes on rich should be relatively high (but not insanely high like in Scandinavian countries), military spending should be low, and free welfare money should be replaced by an increase in low-paying government jobs. All three of the things I just mentioned would ensure that debt doesn't rise too high.

there are cases in healthcare,
Helathcare is strange and multiple,
until today we all know that stamps was a solution, and I still think is a good idea in balancing the costs of an old man medicine, but what happens if bankers have spoted that money?

LeBrok
23-12-12, 22:59
This should be included in curriculum in every high school. Make sure you are rested and loaded with coffee, as narration is fast and rich with knowledge. Written and narrated by professor of Harvard, Niall Ferguson. I wish I could speak like him.

PS. Just keep in mind that this is a TV show program after all, and for this purpose, program emphasizes dramatic historic events of financial markets. Watching a normal financial everyday operation, lets say, of Royal Bank of Canada, would be completely boring and unsuitable for TV, though more educational and more representative of industry.

Nevertheless, it's a great program to watch, enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx_5PuLIzc


Plus, Niall Ferguson views on how to fix our financial system, and run economy in general.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/featured/live-qa-with-niall-ferguson-host-of-the-ascent-of-money/109/

nordicwarrior
24-12-12, 17:23
Thanks for posting those links LeBrok. This material was in large part a summary of things I already knew, but it was nice to see it packaged together in a higher production medium (please note--I only watched the first hour so far).

The best phrase I heard Niall utter...money is trust. Simple, true, and unavoidable. It's really why our financial systems are in such a horrible condition. Corruption by a few wealthy insiders shattered the trust of the common man. So I stand by my earlier recommendations; plant a garden, take up fishing, strengthen ties with neighbors. Time is the commodity that is most valuable of all, and it's one that the elite haven't been able to legally capture. Yet.

LeBrok
24-12-12, 17:54
I liked it too, although I think that you went one bridge too far with your understanding. He meant that government (not banking) is "good" behind its money. We trust that government (owner of money) will do everything to keep its promise to keep its notes (the money) interchangeable for an equivalent in goods and services. Otherwise it is just a paper.
Well, if you use US dollars (even if you already hiding in secluded village), it means that you still trust US government in monetary policy.

kamani
24-12-12, 19:24
there is no crisis. Its all schemas to make more money. Greece was the target because nobody cares about greece.

nordicwarrior
24-12-12, 19:44
Well, yes LeBrok...but Niall mentions trust as it relates to even hard assets like gold and silver, so I don't think he limiting his theory specifically to fiat currencies. Gold is the final settlement for all debts (it doesn't get "more real" than gold the financial realm) but trust trumps even gold in the physical living world.

To get our system back on track, we need to figure out a way for the small guy to begin to trust the system again.

LeBrok
24-12-12, 21:15
Well, yes LeBrok...but Niall mentions trust as it relates to even hard assets like gold and silver, so I don't think he limiting his theory specifically to fiat currencies. Gold is the final settlement for all debts (it doesn't get "more real" than gold the financial realm) but trust trumps even gold in the physical living world.

To get our system back on track, we need to figure out a way for the small guy to begin to trust the system again.
I totally agree with all you said here. Hopefully with new and hopefully improved regulations of markets, the bad guys will be kept in check, and trust in economy returns.
That's my wish for New Year. :)

Happy and Great Holidays to all.

LeBrok
24-12-12, 21:29
there is no crisis. Its all schemas to make more money. Greece was the target because nobody cares about greece.
Well, I do and I have many greek friends. I wish Greeks a big economic improvement in 2013. Though unrealistic, it is still my wish. :)
Hopefully in the future they will pick up some strength, because as Kamani noticed, the weak ones are always kicked around by bullies of this world.

Templar
25-12-12, 18:50
This should be included in curriculum in every high school. Make sure you are rested and loaded with coffee, as narration is fast and rich with knowledge. Written and narrated by professor of Harvard, Niall Ferguson. I wish I could speak like him.

PS. Just keep in mind that this is a TV show program after all, and for this purpose, program emphasizes dramatic historic events of financial markets. Watching a normal financial everyday operation, lets say, of Royal Bank of Canada, would be completely boring and unsuitable for TV, though more educational and more representative of industry.

Nevertheless, it's a great program to watch, enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx_5PuLIzc


Plus, Niall Ferguson views on how to fix our financial system, and run economy in general.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/featured/live-qa-with-niall-ferguson-host-of-the-ascent-of-money/109/

I am three hours through it, thanks for sharing this, it is "gold" ;)

Yetos
08-01-13, 18:54
THE miracle of Bulgaria.

in the time of crisis, in the most isolated corners of EU, next to G20 Turkey a huge country that manage to recover from 1973 crisis, is Bulgaria,

Bulgaria was behind the iron curtain, so it was shocked after Communism fail.
and away from Russia or Germany to have at least big markets near,
Yet she manage to recover and perhaps one of the only one countries that has + at the time of crisis.

Bulgaria manage to absorve 300 000 working places only from Greece and a good number from Italy.
It absoeve all the problematic industries, and all small corporations giving the chance to become big,

According the NSI (national statistics) has 0,5% raise of total income last 3 months and over 1% last year, when that was bigger before crisis,
Bulgaria manage to raise the standard lvls of living about 50% last decade,
if it goes like that in 5 years maybe a common citizen is better that Greek or South Italian.

all this by absorving corporations and industries that were problematic in other countries, giving them the change to stay on feet,
also with lowing coruption that was big in Communism times and in 90's
Bulgaria has almost 0 migration from other countries, especially outside EU

so crisis I believe has to do with more things, that news or politicians say to us, the ones that did not tell.
when a medium-small country of 8 millions manage to beat crisis then we must search elsewhere where some bankers or politicians tell us.

Templar
08-01-13, 18:59
Bulgaria has almost 0 migration from other countries, especially outside EU

Why does that matter?

Yetos
08-01-13, 23:18
Why does that matter?

no bleeding to abroad currency,
no extra health care.
etc

Templar
08-01-13, 23:24
no bleeding to abroad currency,
no extra health care.
etc

You just gotta make sure that they pay their fair share of taxes and don't cause trouble, and then its fine. I think governments should lavishly award great immigrants and punish (deport and imprison) trouble makers. If a country lets you in and instead of appreciating you start being a criminal, then you are a very horrible human and you don't deserve the generosity given to you. So it is important to screen incoming immigrants and only allow the best ones in. Maybe the best way to do this is to force everyone to have IDs which can't be faked, and then make all commercial/economic activity impossible without said ID.

Yetos
09-01-13, 00:11
You just gotta make sure that they pay their fair share of taxes and don't cause trouble, and then its fine. I think governments should lavishly award great immigrants and punish (deport and imprison) trouble makers. If a country lets you in and instead of appreciating you start being a criminal, then you are a very horrible human and you don't deserve the generosity given to you. So it is important to screen incoming immigrants and only allow the best ones in. Maybe the best way to do this is to force everyone to have IDs which can't be faked, and then make all commercial/economic activity impossible without said ID.


I think that illegal immigrants should be shot.

Each country who wants labour hands must ask a number,

the rest are illegal fortune hunters.or modern slaves,

Boss
09-01-13, 07:57
I think that illegal immigrants should be shot.

Each country who wants labour hands must ask a number,

the rest are illegal fortune hunters.or modern slaves,

Έχεις σοβαρό πρόβλημα έτσι;

BTW, I am writing in Greek so that we can understand each other better. I know it looks a bit rude but, in English, I can not understand what Yetos is trying to say (most of the time!).

Yetos
09-01-13, 13:41
Έχεις σοβαρό πρόβλημα έτσι;

BTW, I am writing in Greek so that we can understand each other better. I know it looks a bit rude but, in English, I can not understand what Yetos is trying to say (most of the time!).

haha.

Maybe I have a big problem,
but indeed I am tired of that situation,

shoot them the time they enter country, and in 1 year problem is solved.
FRONTEX really does nothing, things just did not went worse.

LeBrok
09-01-13, 18:09
haha.


shoot them the time they enter country, and in 1 year problem is solved.


So, Yetos, you would kill most of your ancestors like IE and Macedonians, who at some point came illegally (by force) to Greece. Without them there wouldn't be Greece, there wouldn't be Yetos.

Yetos
09-01-13, 23:28
So, Yetos, you would kill most of your ancestors like IE and Macedonians, who at some point came illegally (by force) to Greece. Without them there wouldn't be Greece, there wouldn't be Yetos.

hahahaha

Do you believe the one you call IE (for me is still uncertain if they spoke IE) came with no fight?
do you believe that these people did not shot ? or the before them did not shot them?

Makedonian were Greeks so that was mostly an inner strangle of who will rule? who will be the one 'King'

on the other hand do you know how modern slavery works?

you want to show you videos?

they drop their pappers to sea, they come with no name, and the most exciting is that they pay 3-5000 each to pass borders to modern slave merchants.
did the ones you call IE came that way?

or you believe that the previous people did not shoot them?

do you believe that the previous habitants told them to come? 'you new IE newcomer you are gonna sleep today in my house, we have prepaired meal for you'.
or IE payed slave merchants to drive them?
come on

Templar
09-01-13, 23:34
I think that instead of going to other countries, they should try to make their own countries better (be active in protests, vote for politicians that are against corruption, expose corruption, etc). For example I read somewhere that there is more Ethiopian doctors in NYC than in all of Ethiopia, that is insane.

LeBrok
10-01-13, 00:25
I think that instead of going to other countries, they should try to make their own countries better (be active in protests, vote for politicians that are against corruption, expose corruption, etc). For example I read somewhere that there is more Ethiopian doctors in NYC than in all of Ethiopia, that is insane.
It works if most all population wants the same thing, like same political and economic system.
What if you want to live in different political and economic system than most of your countrymen? Forget dictator, even in democracy you won't achieve what you want. It is more logical to look for a country you fit the best, instead of being Don Quixote. One can be more productive member of new society, and happier.
Under dictatorships changing political or economic systems is extremely difficult. The stronger dictator the greater the chance of losing one's life, or being tortured and imprisoned for life. Only few are brave enough to protest in these circumstances, and seldom it changes anything. Finally, when revolution hits, like in Middle East these days, the chances of living in democratic and well-off country is minimal. It will take another generation or two for the things to improve, given the right conditions.

In many countries the doors are kicked wide open and people are spilling around the planet. It's time for EU to get real and address illegal emigration, or the problem will get even bigger in next few years, the conditions are ripe for it. Life on Social Services in Europe is still much better, even in recession, than working in Egypt for one dollar a day, like most do over there.

Templar
10-01-13, 00:40
Under dictatorships changing political or economic systems is extremely difficult. The stronger dictator the greater the chance of losing one's life, or being tortured and imprisoned for life. Only few are brave enough to protest in these circumstances, and seldom it changes anything.

Abandoning your country just seems like a very cowardly and disloyal move to me. Every country's people are reaping the fruits of their ancestors' labor, it is one's duty to continue the process. If noone is willing to risk themselves for the greater good, then no progressive change is possible. I can understand if someone immigrates to avoid genocide or because they are trying to get wealth in a First World country which they can then use to help their homeland, but if you immigrate SOLELY to improve ONLY your life, that is selfish beyond belief.

LeBrok
10-01-13, 02:35
Abandoning your country just seems like a very cowardly and disloyal move to me.


If noone is willing to risk themselves for the greater good, then no progressive change is possible

In first sentence you condemned most successful countries of 20th century, built on emigration, Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand. How should we put it "Countries of cowards"? Though countries of emigrants, they proved your second sentence wrong, as they seamed to be ones of most progressive in the world.
We should mentioned that no matter where we are, we always work for greater good, for society good, we never live alone.

I'm sure there are some people that would make even more constrictive argument than yours. Does it make us cowards and disloyal, if we "emigrate" from a village or city where we were born? Shouldn't we stay in a village where ancestral labor is?
Should we be loyal to the blind faith giving us place to live on earth?



Every country's people are reaping the fruits of their ancestors' labor, it is one's duty to continue the process.
On other hand, our ancestors ruined our countries as well on many occasions, leaving no benefits for future generations. They were disloyal too, forsaking religion of our ancestors for Christianity or Muslim, or cowardly leaving their ancestors' lands(because of foreign invasions from east), attacking people and taking their lands, creating new nation in the process. It's good to be faithful on many occasions, but it is also wise to see how the world works, and not to be led like sheep to the slaughterhouse.



I can understand if someone immigrates to avoid genocide or because they are trying to get wealth in a First World country which they can then use to help their homeland, but if you immigrate SOLELY to improve ONLY your life, that is selfish beyond belief.It is rarely the case, because most of us live in families, the smallest group unit. Improving once life improves whole family life too. It is very natural process; offspring and their survival is what counts in nature. This is what is left, the part of your DNA, long after your are gone. After good few generations nobody will remember your name, your religion, your language and your way of life. Do you know your grand, grand, grand, grand mother? (to be precise all 16 of them :) , and 16 ggggand fathers)

Summing it up, what emigrants are doing now, is exactly what your ancestors did, at least the once who introduced the biggest changes to your country/nation. They moved from place to place, they changed religion and culture, they lost and screwed up on many occasions too. Even if you feel a proud Bosnian, you are a descendant of emigrants, as we all are.

Templar
10-01-13, 02:51
In first sentence you condemned most successful countries of 20th century, build on emigration, Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand. How should we put it "Countries of cowards"? Though countries of emigrants, they proved your second sentence wrong, as they seamed to be ones of most progressive in the world.

LeBrok, I am talking about it in terms of modern times, and I think you also misunderstood my motives and train of thought. Canada and the US were extremely underpopulated due to diseases killing a majority of the native population, but this is a whole different issue entirely. Also keep in mind that during the 17th and 18th centuries peasants had very few rights and very little political/military strength. In modern times, in MOST countries, a united populist front can do truly amazing things. Look at how Castro arrived with only 100 soldiers to Cuba, 90 of them died, but the 10 that survived infiltrated the eastern part of the island and spread their revolutionary views among the disenfranchised masses. After only a few months, they had a huge army behind him, and he successfully created one of the most developed countries in the region (I am not advocating communism, I am just using this as an example of what a populist movement can accomplish with enough effort).


It is rarely the case, because most of us live in families, the smallest group unit. Improving once life improves whole family life too. It is very natural process; offspring and their survival is what counts in nature. This is what is left, the part of your DNA, long after your are gone. After good few generations nobody will remember your name, your religion, your language and your way of life. Do you know your grand, grand, grand, grand mother? (to be precise all 16 of them :) , and 16 ggggand fathers)

Summing it up, what emigrants are doing now, is exactly what your ancestors did, at least the once who introduced the biggest changes to your country/nation. They moved from place to place, they changed religion and culture, they lost and screwed up on many occasions too. Even if you feel a proud Bosnian, you are a descendant of emigrants, as we all are.

I am not trying to seem super-nationalist (even though my avatar pic seems to create the image that I am) I am looking at it from an utilitarian perspective. If you are a well-educated "third-worlder" and you decide to stay in your country to help improve it, then you are developing a country that is in need of people such as yourself to launch forward a new wave of progress. If you instead immigrate to an already developed country, then: you aren't helping people who need the most help, you are creating resentment by going to a place where the culture/religion/language is different from your own, and you are helping create a greater imbalance between developed and developing countries.

kamani
10-01-13, 09:23
In modern times, in MOST countries, a united populist front can do truly amazing things. amazing yes, good maybe not, that's how all dictatorships have started in modern times. Most under-developed countries nowadays enter a cycle of dictatorship -> chaos -> another dictatorship. Nationalism has become just another tool in the hands of the powerful.

Templar
10-01-13, 12:50
amazing yes, good maybe not, that's how all dictatorships have started in modern times. Most under-developed countries nowadays enter a cycle of dictatorship -> chaos -> another dictatorship. Nationalism has become just another tool in the hands of the powerful.That is only because the movement ends up being hijacked by greedy bastards.

Boss
11-01-13, 03:15
That is only because the movement ends up being hijacked by greedy bastards. Perhaps it is that nationalism by its very nature attracts wicked people. Or, worse, it may even be that nationalism creates wicked people. Of course, it clearly depends on what one means when one says that he is a nationalist. E.g., in some ways, I am a nationalist. That is, I am not in favour of any internationalist revolution and I do think that the nation state can not at present be replaced by anything else. But I do not think that simply being a member of a nation should confer upon you all kinds of goodies at the expense of outsiders. That is because I think that the circumstances of one's birth should not affect life outcomes in a magnificent way. Where you are born today is the single most important factor that determines your life outcomes. Forget about class, ethnicity, IQ, etc. The exclusionary nature of nationality is far and away the most important reason for why some people are poor, unhealthy, uneducated whist others rich, healthy and educated without the latter being more virtuous or intelligent or whatever (bus drivers in Denmark for example earn 5+ times what bus drivers earn in India without them being any better drivers. The only reason for the wage differential is that they are citizens of Denmark). So maybe nationalism is not evil itself but it will inevitably attract people who do not care about fairness or justice (or even truth). And if they do, they are going think that these values are not as important as jingoistic, irrational tribalism.

Templar
11-01-13, 03:52
Perhaps it is that nationalism by its very nature attracts wicked people. Or, worse, it may even be that nationalism creates wicked people. Of course, it clearly depends on what one means when one says that he is a nationalist. E.g., in some ways, I am a nationalist. That is, I am not in favour of any internationalist revolution and I do think that the nation state can not at present be replaced by anything else. But I do not think that simply being a member of a nation should confer upon you all kinds of goodies at the expense of outsiders. That is because I think that the circumstances of one's birth should not affect life outcomes in a magnificent way. Where you are born today is the single most important factor that determines your life outcomes. Forget about class, ethnicity, IQ, etc. The exclusionary nature of nationality is far and away the most important reason for why some people are poor, unhealthy, uneducated whist others rich, healthy and educated without the latter being more virtuous or intelligent or whatever (bus drivers in Denmark for example earn 5+ times what bus drivers earn in India without them being any better drivers. The only reason for the wage differential is that they are citizens of Denmark). So maybe nationalism is not evil itself but it will inevitably attract people who do not care about fairness or justice (or even truth). And if they do, they are going think that these values are not as important as jingoistic, irrational tribalism. Basically selfishness is the root cause of nationalism gone wrong. But the kind of nationalism that I am talking about is having a sense of duty to help improve the country of your birth. Simply leaving an impoverished country doesn't solve the problem. You have to be a "man" and tackle the issues head on.

kamani
11-01-13, 08:57
Basically selfishness is the root cause of nationalism gone wrong. But the kind of nationalism that I am talking about is having a sense of duty to help improve the country of your birth. Simply leaving an impoverished country doesn't solve the problem. You have to be a "man" and tackle the issues head on. The "citizen hero" mentality becomes sort of a joke in some of these rundown overcrowded countries where the individual is pretty much fighting hard to stay alive. For example in india the buses never stop, you have to jump off the bus if you want to get off. In the philiphines, it is common in case of an accident for the driver to back-up into the victim to make sure they're dead, so that they don't have to pay for damages. You can't go in places like that and be altruistic and think of the greater good, people will simply take whatever you give them and ungratefully continue in their ways. Hence, extremely authoritarian societies and poverty go hand in hand.

Templar
11-01-13, 10:54
The "citizen hero" mentality becomes sort of a joke in some of these rundown overcrowded countries where the individual is pretty much fighting hard to stay alive. For example in india the buses never stop, you have to jump off the bus if you want to get off. In the philiphines, it is common in case of an accident for the driver to back-up into the victim to make sure they're dead, so that they don't have to pay for damages. You can't go in places like that and be altruistic and think of the greater good, people will simply take whatever you give them and ungratefully continue in their ways. Hence, extremely authoritarian societies and poverty go hand in hand.I think you are being way too pessimistic. You just gotta find link-minded individuals and then proceed to create organization, clubs, movements, etc.

LeBrok
11-01-13, 20:08
I think you are being way too pessimistic. You just gotta find link-minded individuals and then proceed to create organization, clubs, movements, etc.
Look at how Castro arrived with only 100 soldiers to Cuba, 90 of them died, but the 10 that survived infiltrated the eastern part of the island and spread their revolutionary views among the disenfranchised masses. After only a few months, they had a huge army behind him, and he successfully created one of the most developed countries in the regionThat's actually a good example how your well meaning efforts and life scarifice could be totally wasted. Castro changed one dictatorship for his dictatorship and communist party members became new oligarchy with more rights and privileges than masses they were fighting for. They have closed the borders and didn't even let the unhappy citizens go in pursuit of better fitted place. Talking about complete enslavement of population. Communists actually were masters of making people work and die for their cause the "greater good". Who is against, dies in labor camps.
he successfully created one of the most developed countries in the regionThe region consists and consisted of other communist regimes or feudal oligarchies. Not exactly a steep competition in this backward part of the world. After 60 years of Castro, there is still severe shortage of everyday goods and food in particular. Imagine this, shortage of food when the climate allows you to grow food all year round. This shows you pretty much how efficient Castro-communism is to produce things.

Templar
11-01-13, 20:16
That's actually a good example how your well meaning efforts and life scarifice could be totally wasted. Castro changed one dictatorship for his dictatorship and communist party members became new oligarchy with more rights and privileges than masses they were fighting for. They have closed the borders and didn't even let the unhappy citizens go in pursuit of better fitted place. Talking about complete enslavement of population. Communists actually were masters of making people work and die for their cause the "greater good". Who is against, dies in labor camps.The region consists and consisted of other communist regimes or feudal oligarchies. Not exactly a steep competition in this backward part of the world. After 60 years of Castro, there is still severe shortage of everyday goods and food in particular. Imagine this, shortage of food when the climate allows you to grow food all year round. This shows you pretty much how efficient Castro-communism is to produce things.I think the US trade embargo has a lot to do with Cuba's economic woes. The best possible trading partner is right next to you, yet you cannot trade with him, that is quite a liability. Cuba IS developed, it has a very high rate of doctors which are world-class. The Venezuelan president himself is being treated in Cuba. Anyways as bad as communism might sometimes seem, it is hell of a lot better than fascism and military dictatorships. Going back to my general point, don't you think brain-drain immigration does more bad than good when looked at from a global perspective? By the way, Canada is one of the best examples of a brain-drain magnet. Anyways we disagree on this lets just leave it at that and respect each other opinion :)

Yetos
12-01-13, 01:28
That's actually a good example how your well meaning efforts and life scarifice could be totally wasted. Castro changed one dictatorship for his dictatorship and communist party members became new oligarchy with more rights and privileges than masses they were fighting for. They have closed the borders and didn't even let the unhappy citizens go in pursuit of better fitted place. Talking about complete enslavement of population. Communists actually were masters of making people work and die for their cause the "greater good". Who is against, dies in labor camps.The region consists and consisted of other communist regimes or feudal oligarchies. Not exactly a steep competition in this backward part of the world. After 60 years of Castro, there is still severe shortage of everyday goods and food in particular. Imagine this, shortage of food when the climate allows you to grow food all year round. This shows you pretty much how efficient Castro-communism is to produce things. I am not going to support Castro, 99% of communistic countries are governed by by a nomen class a dictaorship of a party that always 'knows' !!! what is good for me. but was it better before? when sugar plantations belong all to USAers? was it better when Cuban people were shot for fun, or lived in straw cabines? did you prefer the law of first night at your marriage? in Bolivia and south America still use airplanes to spread Farming medicines, how will you feel if they spread DDT with airplanes outside your city in Canada? we are living the days of Madness, we are argueing and sometimes we even fight (civil wars) for Capitalism or Communism, and we deny to see the truth, we sold our souls for a bottle of cola. just go back and see your video you posted us about how Banksters system became strong. some people died believing for freedom or country, but they died for bankers'. soon another big eye, not that of Egyptian Chorros is going to watch what i write, I buy, I eat, etc we are consuming Nitric and Choric Ammoniun (Νιτρικο και χλωριουχο αμμωνιο) to find some taste in our foods.

LeBrok
12-01-13, 07:25
I think the US trade embargo has a lot to do with Cuba's economic woes. The best possible trading partner is right next to you, yet you cannot trade with him, that is quite a liability. Less than you expect. The real problem of Cuba, also the rest of communist countries, was failure to produce. You need to produce to be able to exchange your goods for other country's goods, or simply produce things for your own citizens.
Cuba IS developed, No it's not, and it is not my opinion, by all economic standards it is a developing country.
it has a very high rate of doctors which are world-class. Without modern equipment, and training on it, you can't have world-class doctors. Cuba, as many countries of communist block, produced many doctors, but hospitals were poorly equipped and lacked even basic medications (again a failure of economy and production). If you go to Cuba on vacation, make sure you don't get sick! And bring dollars in case you happened to be sick, so you can buy medication in special stores that sell western medication and other goods for dollars (oh yes, Castro knows how to suck the green bucks from the population). Far from the reach of poor locals, that's the Cuban reality.
The Venezuelan president himself is being treated in Cuba. Let's not kid ourselves, he is in hospital for Cuban elite, the rest of hospitals are in disrepair and without medication. Even best doctors can't do much in these circumstances.
Anyways as bad as communism might sometimes seem, it is hell of a lot better than fascism and military dictatorships. You can't put everything in one bag. Communism in Stalin edition was much worst than Franco or Mussolini's fascism. Castro's communism is milder than N. Korea's, and so on.
Going back to my general point, don't you think brain-drain immigration does more bad than good when looked at from a global perspective? By the way, Canada is one of the best examples of a brain-drain magnet. It's good for Canada, and it's bad for South Africa for example. It should actually tell some countries to get their act together and first of all improve their economic situation. Otherwise smart people will always fly away. You can't just tell people "wait 50-100 years and things will improve". Smart people are very mobile these days, you can't keep them by force. Well, Cuba is trying, but people will risk their lives to get out. You don't see Americans escaping to Cuba, but thousands Cubans escape (or trying, because you just can't travel freely if you Cuban) every year. It should tell you something how "developed" Cuba is.
Anyways we disagree on this lets just leave it at that and respect each other opinion :) No hard feelings here, I just love talking. :)

LeBrok
12-01-13, 07:56
I am not going to support Castro, 99% of communistic countries are governed by by a nomen class a dictaorship of a party that always 'knows' !!! what is good for me. but was it better before? when sugar plantations belong all to USAers? was it better when Cuban people were shot for fun, or lived in straw cabines? did you prefer the law of first night at your marriage? in Bolivia and south America still use airplanes to spread Farming medicines, how will you feel if they spread DDT with airplanes outside your city in Canada? we are living the days of Madness, we are argueing and sometimes we even fight (civil wars) for Capitalism or Communism, and we deny to see the truth, we sold our souls for a bottle of cola. just go back and see your video you posted us about how Banksters system became strong. some people died believing for freedom or country, but they died for bankers'. soon another big eye, not that of Egyptian Chorros is going to watch what i write, I buy, I eat, etc we are consuming Nitric and Choric Ammoniun (Νιτρικο και χλωριουχο αμμωνιο) to find some taste in our foods.lol Yetos put some happy glasses from time to time. Stress kills, you know.I have to mention again that you see things as black and white only, and this is what obstructs your understanding of the world. Life is always about a good balance, moderation. Don't overdose but also don't avoid everything in panic. The moderation and sometimes picking the lesser bad (in absence of good) is the key to health, either in economy or your own.I admit that even communism wasn't totally bad, it actually produced very educated, egalitarian (well, at least was teaching) societies,...but it failed to give them work and good money for it.You agree that water is a good thing, right? But if you drink 20 liters a day for couple of days it will kill you! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxicationThere is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol, we have them both, but the healthy people have a good balance between them two.Is capitalism good and socialism bad? What we discovered is that the happiest societies have good balance between them. Good capitalist productivity, but also good social support and services.Same is with banking. It's neither totally good or bad. As water for humans, banking is for economy. If you overdose it, it will be toxic. In moderation it is a vital part of our economy and way of life.But remember, even good things will kill you when overdosed.PS. Actually DDT is a good example of overdosing. In 50-60s we didn't know how to use it and sprayed way too much. DDT is still used today in many African countries, sprayed inside houses (but in way smaller quantities) to keeps bugs away. One quick (invisible to the eye, nothing like the clouds of DDT on documentaries from 60s) spraying keeps mosquitoes and malaria away for 6 months, not mentioning other bugs. When you use it right it is as good as miracle.

kamani
12-01-13, 09:36
This talk reminds me of a quote from the movie Avatar: "They're not gonna give up their home. They're not gonna make a deal. For-for what? A light beer and blue jeans? There's nothing that we have that they want. Everything they sent me out here to do is a waste of time. They're never gonna leave Hometree." A lot of these colonized countries have sold their stupid souls for a pair of blue jeans. They would probably be better of eating berries and living in the forest. Some of these people don't even have the genetics to compete in a modern world.

Yetos
12-01-13, 16:04
lol Yetos put some happy glasses from time to time. Stress kills, you know.I have to mention again that you see things as black and white only, and this is what obstructs your understanding of the world. Life is always about a good balance, moderation. Don't overdose but also don't avoid everything in panic. The moderation and sometimes picking the lesser bad (in absence of good) is the key to health, either in economy or your own.I admit that even communism wasn't totally bad, it actually produced very educated, egalitarian (well, at least was teaching) societies,...but it failed to give them work and good money for it.You agree that water is a good thing, right? But if you drink 20 liters a day for couple of days it will kill you! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxicationThere is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol, we have them both, but the healthy people have a good balance between them two.Is capitalism good and socialism bad? What we discovered is that the happiest societies have good balance between them. Good capitalist productivity, but also good social support and services.Same is with banking. It's neither totally good or bad. As water for humans, banking is for economy. If you overdose it, it will be toxic. In moderation it is a vital part of our economy and way of life.But remember, even good things will kill you when overdosed.PS. Actually DDT is a good example of overdosing. In 50-60s we didn't know how to use it and sprayed way too much. DDT is still used today in many African countries, sprayed inside houses (but in way smaller quantities) to keeps bugs away. One quick (invisible to the eye, nothing like the clouds of DDT on documentaries from 60s) spraying keeps mosquitoes and malaria away for 6 months, not mentioning other bugs. When you use it right it is as good as miracle. I am stunned, did you say that even Communism was not that bad? is it you Le brok? well in some areas was a must, a need, but when stays decades becomes an enemy, creates a nomen class, becomes an elite, same with bankgsters, they become elite, and they do not pay, they ask more tax, and more work, and more sacrifices from simple people, so they become a nomen class, and illegal immigration is a good tool-weapon to their hands, it works like that, about DDT if is as you say then why it is forbidenn in Europe, North America etc, DDT is a poison that act as sum, never reduced, only added, but is cheap, very cheap. that is why still in use, DDT even kills storks, by reducing their ability to absorve calcium for eggs, Toronto is considered as one the most ECO cities, a fantastic system of recycle and save money, and produce with low cost to enviroment, until today one of the best, how about spread that little DDT, how will you feel and how will you react? told you we are living the days of madness. in small quantities is good for Africa, but forbitten in Europe, N America etc? and what about some other not even searched chemicals, Αμιαντος (kind of asbestos) in 50's till 80's was in general use, it was a cheap matterial, with some special abilities like ant-iheat, no burning, light weight, most of houses had that matterial, bank and industry become rich, but today we know that Amiantos is no 1 reason for cancer of pneumons. from 1990's the usage of amiantos is forbiden as building matterials. but how many had cancer? did the bank or the industries that was supporting ever pay one 1 E for help of pneumons cancer? they earned unknown money, did they change that matterial from houses? answer is NO they sell a cheap, full of death matterial, they become rich, and they pay not even a penny, to remove that from houses or to help cancer cure. and finnaly comes the state, that 'eats' the deposits of health for the shake of Bankers, Salomi's dance. told you, days of madness,

Yetos
12-01-13, 16:18
This talk reminds me of a quote from the movie Avatar: "They're not gonna give up their home. They're not gonna make a deal. For-for what? A light beer and blue jeans? There's nothing that we have that they want. Everything they sent me out here to do is a waste of time. They're never gonna leave Hometree." A lot of these colonized countries have sold their stupid souls for a pair of blue jeans. They would probably be better of eating berries and living in the forest. Some of these people don't even have the genetics to compete in a modern world. yet the strange is that these societies kept a rule, for example, Muslim countries, they drink cola and wear jeans and watch TV but they never eat pork !!!!!! India, they drive cars, but outside Delhi a cow has priority in the road, Pensylvania Amish Quakers etc, are the ones that kept a rule in western world, they still live in another season, with horses and chariots in 2013 USA, the rest just kept a custom, at a seasoning.

ElHorsto
12-01-13, 17:28
Less than you expect. The real problem of Cuba, also the rest of communist countries, was failure to produce. You need to produce to be able to exchange your goods for other country's goods, or simply produce things for your own citizens. This reminds of the irony how communist China today is the worlds biggest product exporter while capitalist USA became the biggest importer. Admittedly, China is not truly communist anymore.

LeBrok
12-01-13, 18:12
I am stunned, did you say that even Communism was not that bad? is it you Le brok? well in some areas was a must, a need, but when stays decades becomes an enemy, creates a nomen class, becomes an elite, same with bankgsters, they become elite, and they do not pay, they ask more tax, and more work, and more sacrifices from simple people, so they become a nomen class, and illegal immigration is a good tool-weapon to their hands, it works like that, about DDT if is as you say then why it is forbidenn in Europe, North America etc, DDT is a poison that act as sum, never reduced, only added, but is cheap, very cheap. that is why still in use, DDT even kills storks, by reducing their ability to absorve calcium for eggs, Toronto is considered as one the most ECO cities, a fantastic system of recycle and save money, and produce with low cost to enviroment, until today one of the best, how about spread that little DDT, how will you feel and how will you react? told you we are living the days of madness. in small quantities is good for Africa, but forbitten in Europe, N America etc? and what about some other not even searched chemicals, Αμιαντος (kind of asbestos) in 50's till 80's was in general use, it was a cheap matterial, with some special abilities like ant-iheat, no burning, light weight, most of houses had that matterial, bank and industry become rich, but today we know that Amiantos is no 1 reason for cancer of pneumons. from 1990's the usage of amiantos is forbiden as building matterials. but how many had cancer? did the bank or the industries that was supporting ever pay one 1 E for help of pneumons cancer? they earned unknown money, did they change that matterial from houses? answer is NO they sell a cheap, full of death matterial, they become rich, and they pay not even a penny, to remove that from houses or to help cancer cure. and finnaly comes the state, that 'eats' the deposits of health for the shake of Bankers, Salomi's dance. told you, days of madness,I have a feeling that the "balance of things" didn't register with you, did it?When used in right way DDT and Asbestos are very beneficial, with minimum side effects. Asbestos is bed in loose form, like in insulation, but is harmless when stuck in concrete wall. It makes concrete stronger and less expensive, a good thing.Yes, I'm ok with spraying DDT around my house, if it is done in right quantity. I find mosquitoes and wasps very annoying during short summer here, and the bed bugs are coming back with vengeance in America. We almost eradicated bed bugs in 60s with help of DDT. DDT has power to save millions people just from malaria, not mentioning other parasitic infections by other bugs. It's just need to be used smart.Tell me Yetos, why don't we ban water too. After all water is very dangerous for human health. Water kills about 100,000 people every year only by drowning, pretty much same amount of people as estimated asbestos deaths. And yet you only want to ban asbestos but not the water. Let's ban knives too, they kill people and animals, they are bad for environment too. Plus, big corporations are making billions on selling water and knives. Why don't we ban water and knives, Yetos?

LeBrok
12-01-13, 18:18
This reminds of the irony how communist China today is the worlds biggest product exporter while capitalist USA became the biggest importer. Admittedly, China is not truly communist anymore.Yep, pretty much what is left of their communism is the dictatorship of one political party. I'll give them 5-10 years and they will quit like in Eastern Europe. Once party members become capitalists, and their income from ventures exceeds income from being polit bureau of china, then there is no force to keep them pretending, no reason.

nordicwarrior
12-01-13, 18:27
Here's an interesting article that sums up the current American economy--"Outsource Yourself: The Online Way to Delegate Your Chores" by Patricia Marx in the New Yorker. Her article speaks to the joy of having literally hundreds of "taskmasters" (unemployed and under-employed Americans) out bid one another to fetch her cookies and summarize her novel for book club (I'm not making this up).Unfortunately, I don't think Ms. Marx pays healthcare or offers paid vacations for these "errands". But please give her some slack, she has a B.A. from Harvard so her utter disconnectedness from reality can be justified.

nordicwarrior
12-01-13, 18:31
By the way, our true unemployment rate is slightly below 25%.

Yetos
12-01-13, 21:15
I have a feeling that the "balance of things" didn't register with you, did it?When used in right way DDT and Asbestos are very beneficial, with minimum side effects. Asbestos is bed in loose form, like in insulation, but is harmless when stuck in concrete wall. It makes concrete stronger and less expensive, a good thing.Yes, I'm ok with spraying DDT around my house, if it is done in right quantity. I find mosquitoes and wasps very annoying during short summer here, and the bed bugs are coming back with vengeance in America. We almost eradicated bed bugs in 60s with help of DDT. DDT has power to save millions people just from malaria, not mentioning other parasitic infections by other bugs. It's just need to be used smart.Tell me Yetos, why don't we ban water too. After all water is very dangerous for human health. Water kills about 100,000 people every year only by drowning, pretty much same amount of people as estimated asbestos deaths. And yet you only want to ban asbestos but not the water. Let's ban knives too, they kill people and animals, they are bad for environment too. Plus, big corporations are making billions on selling water and knives. Why don't we ban water and knives, Yetos? that is the wrong amiantos (asbestos in buildings) is the no 1 in pneumons cancer, it is tottaly forbiden in building technology in my country, yet Greece has big deposits of amiantos so it is very cheap. I do not want to ban asbestos, I simply want the ones who profit from that to restore the health and the houses, damn I can not use underlive paragraphs etc. we don't ban water for the death of people, but we ban industries who polute water,

nordicwarrior
12-01-13, 21:31
If Ms. Marx is going to tout the new labor market as hyper-efficient, I'm going to openly declare what it really is... a return to feudalism. On the surface her claim of a brave new job corps almost sounds plausible. However when you factor in the almost complete loss of the U.S. manufacturiing base, you suddenly have a big problem. Our economy now consists of one guy selling sugar-water to the next guy. (Well that and highly re-imbursed visits to the doctor.) Can Starbuck's support an empire? Our old manufacturing product--financial derivatives--isn't going to have many takers.

nordicwarrior
12-01-13, 21:32
Yeah I'm bitter.

Yetos
15-01-13, 17:25
If Ms. Marx is going to tout the new labor market as hyper-efficient, I'm going to openly declare what it really is... a return to feudalism. On the surface her claim of a brave new job corps almost sounds plausible. However when you factor in the almost complete loss of the U.S. manufacturiing base, you suddenly have a big problem. Our economy now consists of one guy selling sugar-water to the next guy. (Well that and highly re-imbursed visits to the doctor.) Can Starbuck's support an empire? Our old manufacturing product--financial derivatives--isn't going to have many takers.

Good point of view.

we have much more caffe and waitress than farmers and workers.

Yetos
02-02-13, 01:48
one video that must make us all reconsider the news we hear on TV.



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx6sxc_yyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyy-yy-yyyyyyyyyyyy_news




Where ever IMF went we had cases like Argentine Greece etc with booming the problem instead of help it.
wherever EU Central bank goes we have decdes of solving the problem like Hungary.
Where ever IMF and ECB did not went we see miracles

the video is the vivid truth.

sometimes I wonder if crisis is fixed, and not natural.
the truth is that Iceland still lives in the Free World, away from Bangsters IMF and ECB


for those who do not know or do not understand,
Greece under demands of Troika (IMF+ECB) raise taxes to almost killing limit on selling products, properties and income from 1rst Euro.
the developent stoped, unemployment is about to reach 30% to youth (18-32) from 14%.etc etc.
All these to save 2 'very bad' 3 'bad' Banks 3 'semi bad' and 4 almost 'healthy'

the last Helping dosage from ECB was 9,2 Billion E,
from these 6,8 Billion never reach people, neither will be used for progrees, neither relief state economy just go to save private Banks, from Bad to almost Healthy.
Besides for many decades now no minister went to prison,
I think corruption is synonyme with Banking system.

by leaving Banks to collapse or broke, the disaster lasts less and the damage is little, than to try to save them,
Free world must be a Justice world and not a Banksters dictatorship, where a common citizen must have the same rights with a Bank, and not create 2 kinds of citizenship,

Templar
03-02-13, 16:17
Just let the banks fail just like all other businesses which don't succeed. If governments continue treating banks in a privileged manner like spoiled children, people will take matters into their own hands and start destroying/boycotting banks. Best case scenario is if people started creating their own public/state banks. The US state with the lowest unemployment rate (North Dakota) also happens to be the only one with a state-owned public bank. I think everyone should follow their example.

LeBrok
03-02-13, 21:16
Just let the banks fail just like all other businesses which don't succeed. If governments continue treating banks in a privileged manner like spoiled children, people will take matters into their own hands and start destroying/boycotting banks. Best case scenario is if people started creating their own public/state banks. The US state with the lowest unemployment rate (North Dakota) also happens to be the only one with a state-owned public bank. I think everyone should follow their example.
They have somewhat different role than ordinary banks. They serve as State Treasurer in tax collection, in inter-banking lending (helping smaller banks), lending to startup businesses in Dakota, lending student loans to help education, help with budget shortfalls of the state. It is more like a state central bank, short of printing their own money.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/how-nation%E2%80%99s-only-state-owned-bank-became-envy-wall-street


EH: The interesting thing about the bank is we understand that we walk a fine line between competing and partnering with the private sector. We were designed and set up to partner with them and not compete with them. So most of the lending that we do is participatory in nature. It’s originated by a local bank and we come in and participate in the loan and use some of our programs to share risk, buy down the interest rate. We even provide guarantees similar to SBA to encourage certain activity for entrepreneurial startups. Aside from that, we also act as a bankers’ bank or a wholesale bank. So we provide services to banks, whether it’s check clearing, liquidity, or bond accounting safekeeping. There’s probably 20 other bankers' banks across the country. So we act in that capacity as kind of a little mini-fed actually. And so we service 104 banks and provide liquidity to them and clear their checks and also we buy loans from them when they have a need to overline, whether it’s beyond their legal lending limit or they just want to share risk, we’ll do that. We’re a secondary market for residential loans, so we have a portfolio of $500 to $600 million of residential loans that we buy

Here is what the boss thinks about expending and current financial situation:

EH: So much of what is going on right now is a knee-jerk reaction to some things that have happened, where regulations and accounting practices weren’t where they should be. So my advice is everybody take a deep breath and we’re going to get through this and we are going to exit this as a stronger industry than when we went into it, with controls in places that are absolutely necessary, with banks understanding the risks they are taking. For all states to look at North Dakota’s model and say this would be the panacea to all those things, I don’t see that happening.

Yetos
03-02-13, 21:58
Just let the banks fail just like all other businesses which don't succeed. If governments continue treating banks in a privileged manner like spoiled children, people will take matters into their own hands and start destroying/boycotting banks. Best case scenario is if people started creating their own public/state banks. The US state with the lowest unemployment rate (North Dakota) also happens to be the only one with a state-owned public bank. I think everyone should follow their example.


it has started already,
all midle class Greeks took back their deposits leaving banks with bubble money and almost non cush,

in 2009 banks were giving 10 and 20 E bill to the redrow of peoples' deposits,
official was 115 million E unoficial more than 260 E million in cush

I think that is why ECB is changing Eurobills,
the ability in cush in EU is reaching bottom,
yet fake Eurobills reach ceiling.

Templar
04-02-13, 14:10
They have somewhat different role than ordinary banks. They serve as State Treasurer in tax collection, in inter-banking lending (helping smaller banks), lending to startup businesses in Dakota, lending student loans to help education, help with budget shortfalls of the state. It is more like a state central bank, short of printing their own money.

They are still useful. Their interest rates tend to be lower than that of private banks.

oriental
25-06-14, 22:45
Ascent of Money

Professor Niall ferguson:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsrtB5lp60s

oriental
25-06-14, 22:50
The Creature from Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu_VqX6J93k


The inception of the Federal Reserve System

This video explains how normal banks expand the money supply by 1:10 with bonds from U.S. Government.

The big banks (Wall Street) that own the Federal Reserve System follow the Net Capital Rule (which could change - it was the change to 1:33 ratio by chairman of Goldman Sachs at the time Henry Paulson later US Treasury secretary that brought the 2007 recession) with expansion ratio is 1:17 to get into exploration for resources for oil, minerals mergers and acquisitions. i.e. hedge funds.

oriental
25-06-14, 22:53
It is funny that according to Mr. Griffin Socialism, Communism and fascism are all the same:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=005cahIsSXE

On further research Mr. Griffin is a Libertarian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Edward_Griffin

oriental
25-06-14, 22:54
Fractional reserve banking:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypB_MdAc3ko

Aberdeen
26-06-14, 01:51
It is funny that according to Mr. Griffin Socialism, Communism and fascism are all the same:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=005cahIsSXE

On further research Mr. Griffin is a Libertarian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Edward_Griffin

The issue that these lunatics never address is the toxic power of large corporations. Does this fool really think it would be better to be under the direct governance of a handful of billionaires, or does he delude himself into thinking that isn't the purpose of "libertarianism" and the selling of pixie dust to useful idiots like himself?

oriental
26-06-14, 19:57
Extremes of both are undesirable. The stock market as shown is quite unstable and collectivism leads to gradual decline or no growth economy. Mr. Griffin might be wrong on the 'isms' but he is right on the money on the Creature from Jekyll Island. Maybe the 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' was actually a warning. Wall Street is two-faced. There is the suave Dr. Jekyll and then there is the hideous Mr. Hyde as shown in the 1929 Stock Market Crash and the 2007 Recession (would have been a crash equal to 1929 if the U.S. Government didn't step in).

Aberdeen
26-06-14, 20:30
Extremes of both are undesirable. The stock market as shown is quite unstable and collectivism leads to gradual decline or no growth economy. Mr. Griffin might be wrong on the 'isms' but he is right on the money on the Creature from Jekyll Island. Maybe the 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' was actually a warning. Wall Street is two-faced. There is the suave Dr. Jekyll and then there is the hideous Mr. Hyde as shown in the 1929 Stock Market Crash and the 2007 Recession (would have been a crash equal to 1929 if the U.S. Government didn't step in).

I hate it when people try to frame things as a choice between stalinism and cowboy capitalism. It's been repeatedly shown in countries like Sweden and Germany that the economy works well if you have a combination of regulated free enterprise and direct government involvement in essential services such as education, health care and utilities.

oriental
26-06-14, 20:37
It is politics. Throw the mud and hope it sticks. Same thing with the churches. They show 'hell' to scare the heck out of the kids so when they grow up they are god-fearing. Psychology at work.

oriental
30-06-14, 23:14
Money Masters and Politicians


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCu7r9YREko

Both parties in America are controlled by the Money Masters.

As explained in the video by Mr. Griffin, Democrats like to spend on social issue so creating debt with the Fed issuing bonds and treasury notes enable them to pursue their political goals. However the multiplying effect of having banks expanding their loans by ten and the Wall Street banks by 17 paper money would result in inflation as money does not match goods produced. The rich do not like inflation as it corrodes their wealth. Only the banks and Wall Street bankers siphon off enough money many times above inflation so they are NOT affected. Republicans representing the wealthy fight debt. Note the Rockefellers and Rothschilds back Democrats or Liberal Republicans as inflation doesn't affect them.

oriental
02-07-14, 21:58
The true history of the banking cartels and the Federal Reserve:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEidv66-58c

oriental
03-07-14, 20:27
It appears that the Federal Reserve System is unconstitutional:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OU9AGUv4lk

oriental
03-07-14, 20:28
Part (II):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kadN7bzBGnQ

oriental
03-07-14, 20:30
Part (III):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izg1T5aKQT8

oriental
03-07-14, 20:56
The Bilderbergers:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBypAFQ3ZCk


The Money Masters documentary:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1954955/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

http://www.themoneymasters.com/

http://www.knowledgeoftoday.org/2012/05/money-masters-origins-political-power.html


(http://www.knowledgeoftoday.org/2012/05/money-masters-origins-political-power.html)http://www.onepagenews.com/category/bill-still-report/

http://stillswill.wix.com/billstill

https://www.facebook.com/BillStillOfficial

oriental
06-07-14, 22:44
The Secret of Oz:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI

oriental
07-07-14, 22:04
3. From the creation of the First bank ...

go to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWR13eehyFA

oriental
07-07-14, 22:04
4. creation of the federal reserve

go to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG8FpOYMaGw

oriental
09-07-14, 01:40
Dr. Gallo and Aids:

Creation of aids on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgiMqgjS-zM

oriental
09-07-14, 02:22
Depopulation by elites.

go to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4a9bmTvQdM

oriental
10-07-14, 20:35
History Channel - Rockefellers:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XFKsjjPs7E

oriental
10-07-14, 20:44
Rockefellers and Trilateral Commission:

go to youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f_lXotAQKA

oriental
12-07-14, 19:35
Those who want to download YouTube videos there are many sites but for convenience I have provided two popular sites:

http://download.cnet.com/Free-YouTube-Downloader/3000-2071_4-75219434.html

The CNET site

and:

http://www.tucows.com/preview/1596311/YouTube-Free-Downloader?q=Downloader

the tucows site.

There is a caution I must mention from my experience that you may have as a result get a lot of junk emails as they track your email address. I get a lot of junk as I downloaded a lot of freewares not knowing their tracking feature and the mailing list income they receive.

A lot of businesses started this way. Google itself is a mailing list company. The Google search engines get your email and somehow the email address from their gmail or tracking from using Google search engine provides them the mailing list. Sir Richard Branson also started as a mailing list provider i.e. he sent a lot of free stuff in the mail and got addresses and the mailing list.

oriental
12-07-14, 19:47
Hidden Secrets of Money Episode 1:

Go to youtube if you feel the need to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU&list=PLLIblm7nZVmBm0lLsMD6rlzbFSqkSJgTB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdSq5H7awi8&list=PLLIblm7nZVmBm0lLsMD6rlzbFSqkSJgTB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-IemeM-Ado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQWMd_NPSBA

System based on gold not a good idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ua0QM2ORdk

oriental
12-07-14, 19:51
Episode 2:

oriental
12-07-14, 19:59
Episode 3:

oriental
12-07-14, 20:15
Episode 4:

oriental
12-07-14, 20:27
Episode 5:

oriental
12-07-14, 20:45
The Insiders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5mSe09bzwE

oriental
12-07-14, 23:34
George Bush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5mSe09bzwE

oriental
12-07-14, 23:43
The sordid past of George Bush:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ikbwkaC8tE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ikbwkaC8tE)

LeBrok
12-07-14, 23:47
Oriental, please delete posts 167 to 171. These are infomercials for their books and website to buy gold and silver from them. This is forbidden on Eupedia.
For the rest, please, be more critical and logical, what you post. Most of the videos are full of conspiracy theories and propaganda of some ideological groups.
I don't have time to check everything now, but I'm sure I will delete most of them later. So be kind and don't make me work too hard. :)

oriental
13-07-14, 23:12
I actually haven't seen all of them. I only went by the title and snippets like the first two minutes. They are too long. I assumed #167 was #157 and #171 was #161. I deleted the Bush stuff as they can get nasty.

LeBrok
14-07-14, 01:54
I actually haven't seen all of them. I only went by the title and snippets like the first two minutes. They are too long. I assumed #167 was #157 and #171 was #161. I deleted the Bush stuff as they can get nasty.
lol, I thought you post them because they fit your geo-political views, not just the titles do. Anyway thanks.

oriental
14-07-14, 23:49
fit your geo-political views
India was under socialism with Nehru. They were bragging how things were going to improve once the British left. Well as the British were leaving little by little year by year and things were getting worse. I didn't know what socialism was as I was just a kid. But from my experience socialism isn't what they imagine and definitely a disappointment. However, learning about the how the Scandinavian countries handled socialism made me less skeptical. So I think it is how you handle socialism.

Basically I want want people to know about money and how the system works and how they can fix it by knowing the system. I never provided any solution as I too am learning. I learnt about the Net Capital Rule in another forum and it triggered my imagination how Wall Street used it. It is just leverage. It was sad to know that bankers whom I had always trusted were actually ripping off the system. That is human nature. People will abuse the system no matter what country. I see a lot of it in India, Hong Kong, United States but not so much in Canada. In Toronto there was a guy named Deer and he was ripping off welfare. He admitted to me he worked for cash (he was actually bragging) and was receiving welfare and he owned the home that he used to rent us rooms. I was new so I didn't know enough about how things worked. I never applied for welfare and I didn't know he was ripping off welfare at the time. Ha, that's how people are.

Aberdeen
15-07-14, 04:33
No, India was not "under socialism with Nehru", since AFAIK the Indian economy remained in private hands. The New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics defines socialism thusly.

"A society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialized or cooperative enterprises. The practical issues of socialism comprise the relationships between management and workforce within the enterprise, the interrelationships between production units (plan versus markets), and, if the state owns and operates any part of the economy, who controls it and how."

The last bit of that definition is, I think, meant to suggest that a system where the states owns and operates all or part of the economy may not actually be socialist if the government is controlled by an elite (e.g. the Communist Party in various East Bloc countries in the recent past) and the economy is actually operated mainly for the benefit of that elite. Of course, there are a lot of possible variations on full or partial socialism, and a lot of disagreement about definitions, but basically it's not socialism unless at least a major part of the means of production is at least theoretically owned, directly or indirectly, by the workers and operated in accordance with their wishes and for their benefit.

In summary, the word "socialism" is not a vague reference to "a political system I like" or "a political system I don't like". Whether or not one approves of socialism, the term has to do with who owns the major means of production and who benefits from it.

And I agree with LeBrok - most of those things you posted are nonsense. Of course, it's easy to turn to conspiracy theories when you see just how screwed up the world economy is and how unfairly it operates, often to the advantage of a tiny elite. But nobody has actually organized the whole world in accordance with some massive conspiracy - we just have a world economy that's so badly skewed that some people are taking unfair advantage because they can.

oriental
15-07-14, 20:10
You are welcome to your views. I have not identified if they are conspiracies or otherwise. They are just different points of views. This is what is called thinking out of the box. I think they are interesting but like I pointed out on some of the videos I wasn't sure of the accuracies. Some had bad spellings which shows the author(s) show no concern for correctness. These videos are just like many religious books filled with facts and fiction.

Aberdeen
16-07-14, 15:52
...................
These videos are just like many religious books filled with facts and fiction.

I agree with that part of your comment. These videos are just like many religious books. They mix together fact and fiction without bothering to distinguish between the two.

oriental
16-07-14, 22:00
Here is CBC documentary on the world financial meltdown:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQzEWeGJLP0

It is very long. I only skimmed through it.

oriental
16-07-14, 22:18
Here is Elizabeth Warren , a Harvard professor on the meltdown.:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmNiRKuee1A

She could run for US president against Hilary Clinton in 2016.

oriental
16-07-14, 22:24
And here is Alan Greenspan, the first Fed chairman to use low interest rates over extended period vs. other chairmen who alternated between high and low interest rates to contain inflation and deflation, on the meltdown.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSo0Ies--Xg

Mind you these videos I have not gone through as I am in a silent zone no speakers allowed. I am just going by the written descriptions and titles. I assume they (the videos) are respectable as these are people in the public eye.

I look at it this way. The bankers have complete knowledge of the knowns and manipulate the financial levers to their advantage but are as blind to unknowns as everyone else so unintended consequences really screw up their plans.

Economics is not not a science and there are a lot of unknowns. The use of statistics is a sure sign that there is a lot of guessing involved.

The panics and depressions could very well be intentionally set and also it could be that there is a situation which developed that they could intensify it and take advantage. There are all kinds of possibilities. It is also human nature. Gifted people are not necessarily moral people and they could just as anyone else do bad things if they can get away with it.

oriental
17-07-14, 03:36
Here is a visual how money is created by the Bank of England:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1zVXQhmUD8

oriental
17-07-14, 03:39
An illustrated explanation of the origin of banking:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx0vrR2BFp8

oriental
17-07-14, 19:20
Story of Gold:

Very interesting!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBh6BnSF0MQ

oriental
17-07-14, 19:27
Uses for precious metals:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJe6XvMamc

oriental
17-07-14, 20:07
How gold is processed:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apD5cPVsDjc

oriental
18-07-14, 01:44
Gold processing with mercury:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-WO97CZKns

oriental
18-07-14, 01:47
Gold dissolves in mercury:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKxCw889qck

oriental
18-07-14, 01:54
Recover gold from computer circuits:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXd85YfcvY

oriental
18-07-14, 02:04
To smelt and refine the gold from the computer chips:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c9Z5UYsUV4

oriental
18-07-14, 02:16
Recovering mercury from gold:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvH2Rr4uTus

oriental
18-07-14, 02:25
Gold mining using borax:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Sawj0HyF0

oriental
19-07-14, 20:40
The history of gold and silver:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf-2KqVWI7A

oriental
19-07-14, 20:47
The secret world of gold:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt7hTCeoXUM

oriental
21-07-14, 23:06
JP Morgan documentary


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCJzfqnU2Eo

oriental
22-07-14, 01:45
Precious metals manipulation:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHANqw1d8-I

oriental
22-07-14, 03:26
Fractional Reserve banking

Zeitgeist


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D9bFGokDa4

When banks get the 10:1 ratio it means for a one dollar investment of buying $1 of bonds the bank gets to lend $10 dollars or 9 free dollars to lend. When the loans are paid off the bank gets $9 which should be income but somehow is not and becomes a loan that was returned so there is no tax. This is how the banks have the largest buildings in downtown. In the case of Wall Street it is even more pronounced. The ratio is 17:1 so Wall Street banks get almost twice the money.

oriental
25-07-14, 20:56
Web of Debt by Dr. Ellen Brown:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvUczTYOYi4

When President George W. Bush finished his term the US national debt was $9 trillion but his Home Ownership Program caused the 2008 world recession as a result of the real-estate bubble. President Obama had to rescue the Wall Street banks but he was also advised to take in the toxic assets of the banks so the US national debt is now $16 trillion up $7 trillion from $9 trillion left by GWB.

oriental
25-07-14, 21:36
The story of copper:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaGh4g1JtY

Copper an ingredient of bronze led to the greatest historical treasures - the conquest of continents and countries by warriors with bronze weapons.

oriental
25-07-14, 21:39
copper mining and smelting:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9V5umy5-98

oriental
25-07-14, 21:40
Ancient copper mining:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uHc4Hirexc

oriental
25-07-14, 21:41
Ancient copper mines in Israel:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbpRMw7s3ws

oriental
25-07-14, 21:43
Ancient mining machines:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uQEBcgd3dg

oriental
25-07-14, 21:44
The real Queen of Sheba:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAIcuDSOx0w

That is Gina Lollobrigida as Queen of Sheba.

oriental
26-07-14, 00:59
The public banking system by Dr. Ellen Brown:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5soFCyjNByk

oriental
26-07-14, 01:00
The Public Banking Conference:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-xd_dCdsqY

oriental
26-07-14, 01:01
Everything is rigged:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF0-YR1hrBk

The Finance Industry has captured the Government:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ptIOKwS5c

oriental
26-07-14, 01:12
Bronze casting demonstration:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut3pXPyMze4

oriental
26-07-14, 01:15
To form a metal sword in Britain:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEWIuyeNp2k

oriental
26-07-14, 01:17
Bronze:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biHJaYWWIzM

oriental
26-07-14, 01:19
Homemade bronze:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cRg2Anw_ls

oriental
26-07-14, 01:48
Dr. Ellen Brown on bail-ins:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtv6RBo3Pzo

oriental
26-07-14, 23:09
Queen of Sheba with Yul Brynner as Solomon with hair on his head!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOV8TUfx2ow

oriental
28-07-14, 22:59
State Banks to challenge Wall street:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Ig17aO5DA

oriental
28-07-14, 23:03
Wall Street ripping off municipalities:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaBhx5lwgPc

oriental
30-07-14, 02:31
How the markets are rigged against you:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6-NC9RSBU

oriental
30-07-14, 02:42
Discovery Channel:

The Secret History of the Freemasons


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBVJQJsGcgc

oriental
23-08-14, 20:37
Zeitgeist 2014, a critical view at the world economic principles:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNXTEMnpmb8

World overpopulation is a problem so is an aged world:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/21/news/economy/aging-countries-moodys/index.html

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/21/news/economy/aging-countries-moodys/

oriental
09-09-14, 01:56
History of engines:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euCAWsdW4Ts

oriental
09-09-14, 01:57
Nicola Tesla documentary:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98QwPO1b5j4

oriental
09-09-14, 01:58
Missing secrets:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5uiK_QnyrE

oriental
09-09-14, 01:59
Thomas Edison:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHiNx1bESqA

oriental
09-09-14, 02:00
George Westinghouse:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BUpF__h-IY

oriental
11-09-14, 21:13
Human edge: Putin rise to power


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD4qNG8I1E4

oriental
11-09-14, 21:14
Life and death of Berezovsky:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoapdnFBu7o

oriental
11-09-14, 21:16
How Putin came to power


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpiZw1R8w-c

oriental
11-09-14, 21:19
CBC Putin system


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Rkom1RpKA

oriental
12-09-14, 22:46
Border troubles? I found these videos amusing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtLxZiiuaXs

oriental
12-09-14, 22:50
Netherlands and Belgium


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEo7coyaZ3Q

oriental
12-09-14, 22:50
Another one


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA1ZnW9vfCM

oriental
20-09-14, 19:42
Hitler's stealth fighter:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqgfjXaJxV8

oriental
20-09-14, 23:51
The Manhattan Project (the Atom Bomb):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwpgmEvlRpM

oriental
23-09-14, 19:42
Graphene 101:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rphiCdR68TE

oriental
27-09-14, 02:12
Economic collapse is possible:

All the Presidents' Bankers by Nomi Prins, former Goldman Sachs banker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BnNbLOf3dE

Death of Money by
Jim Richards, CIA and Pentagon analyst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQBia1Mw9Vw

oriental
27-09-14, 02:15
Erin Ade with Jim Richards author of "Death of Money"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2ZceSeGK3s

LeBrok
27-09-14, 05:34
Sometimes I think that the idea that attracts you to this gloom and doom scenario of global economy is to get everybody to your financial level - to have not so much. ;)

Let's talk about it again in 5 years, during next economic boom, when global wealth, the global gdp, will approach 200 trillion dollars. :grin:



Seriously, for last 1000 years, and especially last 500 of capitalism era, we see steady economic growth of the world, and particularly Western World where capitalism and free market economy started. It is pretty long constant growth of global wealth and gdp since, I would notice. What makes you think that his is going to end anytime soon!?
These few wacky journalists and conspiracy theorists on TV?

oriental
27-09-14, 19:52
Right now people are suffering. Eric Holder resigned as he was a lawyer for these Wall Street bankers prior to his selection as the US chief law officer. No one was charged with crime.

Massive fraud:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAJzTdfWbY

oriental
06-10-14, 00:15
Food, Inc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oq24hITFTY

oriental
06-10-14, 00:22
Factory farm chickens:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpbtBgLfl90

oriental
07-10-14, 02:01
The truth about the food and dairy industry:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EV5XLMpnXg

oriental
07-10-14, 02:06
A river of waste:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WAGf-4gC8

oriental
18-11-14, 20:46
It's just a lump of coal, really.

Shirley Bassey sings 'Diamonds are forever'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFSAWiTJsjc

oriental
18-11-14, 20:47
Marilyn Monroe 'Diamonds are a girl's best friend' from the movie 'Gentlemen Prefer bBlondes'.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaOPeVTnyCc

oriental
18-11-14, 20:48
Diamonds and their long way to sparkle

Artificial diamonds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb2J8fw_g8s

oriental
18-11-14, 20:49
Introduction o gemstones


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDDu5uAjUzE

oriental
18-11-14, 20:50
India - The legends of jewels and ancient gemstones Part 1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf8ZtKjsKLg

oriental
18-11-14, 20:51
India - The legends of jewels and ancient gemstones Part 2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYZcUJVl_M

oriental
18-11-14, 20:52
India - The legends of jewels and ancient gemstones Part 3


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9zquRwZZlw

oriental
18-11-14, 20:53
Made in India Imported from India...

All about IIT (India Institute of Technology).

My classmate in Calcutta (Kolkata)whom I beat in scholastics (he was never in the 'first three' category even) went to ITT and got a master's degree in Electrical Engineering and went to the States. He fared better than me. He was a specialist in math while I was an all-arounder.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnW_ROyytTo

oriental
18-11-14, 20:54
Ancient jewelry techniques


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8wrDL4O4rg

oriental
19-11-14, 00:17
Top 5 hidden and lost alleged Indian treasures


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92hLG9S-Fb0

oriental
19-11-14, 00:18
Hidden and lost treasures of India


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAoP3efAXws

oriental
19-11-14, 00:19
National Geographics The secrets of the Taj Mahal


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzK6_OcgMow

oriental
19-11-14, 00:19
Templars lost treasures


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEVL9JKw-X8

oriental
19-11-14, 02:51
Afghanistan's secret billion dollar emerald mines


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk_CWLsPQS8

oriental
19-11-14, 02:52
El Dorado The lost city of gold


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpcxAnZm5X8

oriental
19-11-14, 02:54
National Geographics $100 million emerald


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO7UwZ3bNa4