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Templar
14-11-12, 11:40
Kurds are still hard-core Indo-Europeans

Kurds, like all other Indo-Europeans, mixed heavily with the people they conquered. Indo-Europeans who conquered Europe, mixed with the native Cro-Magnons and Neolithic migrants from the near-East in Southern Europe. In India they mixed with Dravidians. And in the Middle-East they largely mixed with various Semitic people.

Are you talking about genetics or culture?

Goga
14-11-12, 16:07
Kurds, like all other Indo-Europeans, mixed heavily with the people they conquered. Indo-Europeans who conquered Europe, mixed with the native Cro-Magnons and Neolithic migrants from the near-East in Southern Europe. In India they mixed with Dravidians. And in the Middle-East they largely mixed with various Semitic people.

Are you talking about genetics or culture?

Sorry for being off topic!


There's no such thing as being genetically an Indo-European. There's no such thing as an Indo-European race. Indo-European is linguistic term and refers to a specific language family spoken between India and Europe. And Kurdistan lies in West Asia and between India and Europe.

Kurds have their own native language. Kurdic languages are very close to ancient Avestan language and other ancient Iranic languages. Kurdic languages are part of Iranic languages and Iranic languages are in turn part of Indo-European language family.

Kurdic language was naturally evolved among this ethnic group and it was never imposed from outside from the invaders. No other ethnic group in the world speaks Kurdic language. So Indo-European Kurdic language belongs to the Kurds only and it is still evolving and flourishing from inside of the Kurdish culture and many Kurdish dialects are a result of it.

Proto-Indo-European homeland was in Asia: be it around the Caucasus, be it around the Caspian Sea, so it was not far from Kurdistan.So of course there must be very close direct links between ancient Indo-Europeans and modern Indo-European Kurds.

Kurdish history is more than 6000 years old and all this time Kurds were known as Indo-Europeans. Also Kurdic language is thousands of years old. And Kurds still speak their ancient and unique language. With other words Kurds were never somebody else

Actually also culturally Kurds are Indo-European people. Kurds still have their native Indo-European legends, stories, history, art, music, tradition, folklore, dances, values and even religion.

Turks are trying for hundred of years to exterminate and destroy Kurdish language and culture. Arabs (Saddam) and Persians are trying that too. But Kurds are fighting against Arabs, Turks and Persians to preserve and protect their (Indo-European) own identity and heritage.


Kurds were, are and will always be Kurdic (Iranic) people connected to their ancient and rich history!

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 16:46
Sorry for being off topic!


There's no such thing as being genetically an Indo-European. There's no such thing as an Indo-European race. Indo-European is linguistic term and refers to a specific language family spoken between India and Europe. And Kurdistan lies in West Asia and between India and Europe.

Kurds have their own native language. Kurdic languages are very close to ancient Avestan language and other ancient Iranic languages. Kurdic languages are part of Iranic languages and Iranic languages are in turn part of Indo-European language family.

Kurdic language was naturally evolved among this ethnic group and it was never imposed from outside from the invaders. No other ethnic group in the world speaks Kurdic language. So Indo-European Kurdic language belongs to the Kurds only and it is still evolving and flourishing from inside of the Kurdish culture and many Kurdish dialects are a result of it.

Proto-Indo-European homeland was in Asia: be it around the Caucasus, be it around the Caspian Sea, so it was not far from Kurdistan.So of course there must be very close direct links between ancient Indo-Europeans and modern Indo-European Kurds.

Kurdish history is more than 6000 years old and all this time Kurds were known as Indo-Europeans. Also Kurdic language is thousands of years old. And Kurds still speak their ancient and unique language. With other words Kurds were never somebody else

Actually also culturally Kurds are Indo-European people. Kurds still have their native Indo-European legends, stories, history, art, music, tradition, folklore, dances, values and even religion.

Turks are trying for hundred of years to exterminate and destroy Kurdish language and culture. Arabs (Saddam) and Persians are trying that too. But Kurds are fighting against Arabs, Turks and Persians to preserve and protect their (Indo-European) own identity and heritage.


Kurds were, are and will always be Kurdic (Iranic) people connected to their ancient and rich history!

The Proto Indo-European marker was R1a-Z83.

Templar
14-11-12, 17:33
There's no such thing as being genetically an Indo-European. There's no such thing as an Indo-European race. Indo-European is linguistic term and refers to a specific language family spoken between India and Europe

If you read all the articles about Indo-European on eupedia you'll find that most think that they were a distinct sub-race with a a very unique phenotype. They originally lived mostly in Central Asian and then spread to all the lands nearby (Europe, Middle East, India, China, etc).

They y-haplogroup markers were R1b and R1a. Since Kurds have other haplogroups, that suggests they aren't 100% genetically Indo-European. The phenotype of Kurds also doesn't look very Indo-European.


The Proto Indo-European marker was R1a-Z83.
It was one of them, but there are others too.

Goga
14-11-12, 17:35
The Proto Indo-European marker was R1a-Z83.Impossible that it was just 1 marker. I believe in evolution and evolution occurs by mixing. Indo-European evolved at least out of 2 markers. But it’s also possible that a different female lineage (mt-DNA haplogroup) caused birth of proto-Indo-European language.

Goga
14-11-12, 17:45
If you read all the articles about Indo-European on eupedia you'll find that most think that they were a distinct sub-race with a a very unique phenotype. They originally lived mostly in Central Asian and then spread to all the lands nearby (Europe, Middle East, India, China, etc).

They y-haplogroup markers were R1b and R1a. Since Kurds have other haplogroups, that suggests they aren't 100% genetically Indo-European. The phenotype of Kurds also doesn't look very Indo-European

Huh, how do you know how proto-Indo-Europeans looked like? The fact is that they came from Asia and not from Europe. So they definitely didn't look like modern Europeans.

Btw ancient and original R1b folks didn't looked like modern Europeans either. Modern Europeans are actually descendants of Y-DNA hg. 'E', 'I' and 'N1c1' folks.

Templar
14-11-12, 17:53
Huh, how doyou know how proto-Indo-Europeans looked like. The fact is that they came fromAsia and not from Europe. So they definitely didn’t look like modern Europeans.

I never said they looked like modern Europeans. But all the evidence points that they had blue eyes and blonde/red hair.


Btw ancientand original R1b folks didn’t looked like modern Europeans. Modern Euroeans are actually descedants of hg. E, I and N1c1 folks.

Read this before you reply again:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-25593.html

and note this part: "Neolithic to Bronze-Age steppe people appear to have had Proto-Europoid features (mixed European and Mongoloid features, although probably not slanted eyes), like wide, thick-boned faces and low skulls, which was quickly lost when they interbred with other Europeans. They almost certainly carried with them the genetic mutations for blue eyes, fair hair and red hair, as these can be found in all the regions of Eurasia that they colonised, including in the 4000 year-old Tarim mummies."

Goga
14-11-12, 17:57
I never said they looked like modern Europeans. But all the evidence points that they had blue eyes and blonde/red hair.."
LMAO, Show me where I can find DNA of ancient proto-Indo-Euroepans! LOL :laughing:



Read this before you reply again:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-25593.html

and note this part: "Neolithic to Bronze-Age steppe people appear to have had Proto-Europoid features (mixed European and Mongoloid features, although probably not slanted eyes), like wide, thick-boned faces and low skulls, which was quickly lost when they interbred with other Europeans. They almost certainly carried with them the genetic mutations for blue eyes, fair hair and red hair, as these can be found in all the regions of Eurasia that they colonised, including in the 4000 year-old Tarim mummies."What are you talking about? Proto-Indo-European speakers are much older than Bronze-age steppe people!

Bronze-age steppe people are actually proto-Slavic people mixed with Mongoloid people.

Goga
14-11-12, 18:03
The fact is that there is no ancient DNA of original proto-Indo-European speakers. We don't even know where they are from. Nobody knows how they looked like.

The fact is that they are not from Europe, but from Asia. But where from Asia, there's many theories about it!

Templar
14-11-12, 18:04
Bronze-age steppe people are actually Slavic people mixed with Mongoloid people

No, Slavs didn't exist yet at this time. Slavs are the Result of Indo-European migration into Eastern Europe and the consequent mixing with the native Europeans.

It never says that Indo-Europeans were Mongoloid, it just says that they had similar features, BECAUSE both Indo-Europeans and Mongoloids lived in a very cold environment. Wide faces, small noses, straight hair, and other similarities that they had were due to those features being very beneficial in the cold. Wide faces and bodies are good for keeping heat, short noses are good against frostbite, and straight hair covers your head faster than curly hair (i.e. it is longer).

Templar
14-11-12, 18:05
The fact is that they are not from Europe, but from Asia. But where from Asia, there's many theories about it!

All the evidence (such as haplogroup diversity of R1a and R1b) points to Central Asia. They were nomads.

Goga
14-11-12, 18:09
All the evidence (such as haplogroup diversity of R1a and R1b) points to Central Asia. They were nomads.Nonsense!

Show me this so called evidence, show me DNA results of proto-Indo-Euroepean speakers.

R1b entered Europe from Anatolia (West Asia) and not from Central Asia. FACT!
Anatolians don't look like Europeans. FACT!


And there is even no proof that original proto-Indo-Euroepan speakers were R1b* folks or even R1a* folks. Maybe R1b folks got their Indo-European language from J2a folks when they came in contact with them in West Asia (Anatolia/Caucasus).

Maybe hg. J2a folks migrated into Northern Caucasus or the Balkans and via there they spread Indo-European language.

Templar
14-11-12, 18:18
Nonsense!

You are just biased because you are Kurdish. You are letting your emotions lead the discussion. Just because Indo-Europeans don't look like modern-day Kurds.


R1b entered Europe from Anatolia (West Asia) and not from Central Asia. FACT
Anatolians don't look like Europeans. FACT


Europe was less densely populated during the time of Indo-European migrations (compared to all other areas that Indo-Europeans conquered). Because of this, the Indo-European genes are more pronounced there than anywhere else in the world.

Goga
14-11-12, 18:28
You are just biased because you are Kurdish. You are letting your emotions lead the discussion. Just because Indo-Europeans don't look like modern-day Kurds.


Europe was less densely populated during the time of Indo-European migrations (compared to all other areas that Indo-Europeans conquered). Because of this, the Indo-European genes are more pronounced there than anywhere else in the world.
No emotion here. I think logical and I'm using my brains.

I just can see difference between nonsense written by little uneducated nationalistic European kids and facts.

Once again, how do you know how real ancient proto-Indo-Europeans looked like? Show me their DNA, bones etc.

Ancient Persians, Hittites, Mittani were also Indo-European speakers and they didn't look like Europeans at all.

Modern-day Europeans look like their Y-DNA hg. 'E', N1c1, and 'I' ancestors…

Templar
14-11-12, 18:33
Modern-day Europeanslook like their Y-DNA hg. ‘E’, N1c1, and ‘I ‘folks…

European look like a mix of the main three waves of people that settled it: Cro-Magnons, farmers from the near-east, and Indo-European steppe people.

Goga
14-11-12, 18:34
With all due respect, you must be really stupid if you deny that Kurds are Indo-European people. This is not even a theory, but a solid fact recognized, approved, accepted and confirmed by all scientists, linguistics, anthropologists all over the world. Well, maybe not by Turks since they believe that the whole world is Turkic, and Kurdish language doesn't exit, lol.

Templar
14-11-12, 18:36
AncientPersians, Hittites, Mittani were also Indo-European and they didn’t look like Europeans.
They mixed with advanced agicultural societies in the Middle-East and so were as a result mostly absorbed by them


Once again, howdo you know how real ancient proto-Indo-Europeans looked like?

All places that were heavily settled by Indo-Europeans, have atleast some people who have blue eyes, blonde hair, and other light features.

But there is lots of other evidence as well. I don't have the time to list it at all, I suggest you read all the threads about Indo-Europeans on eupedia, maybe then you will see the truth.

Templar
14-11-12, 18:37
With all due respect, you must be really stupid if you deny that Kurds are not Indo-European people. This is not even a theory, but a solid factRecognized approved and accepted by all scientists, linguistics , anthropologist.

I never said that, those are your words. I only said they aren't mostly GENETICALLY Indo-European.

Goga
14-11-12, 18:39
You are just biased because you are Kurdish. You are letting your emotions lead the discussion. Just because Indo-Europeans don't look like modern-day Kurds.


Europe was less densely populated during the time of Indo-European migrations (compared to all other areas that Indo-Europeans conquered). Because of this, the Indo-European genes are more pronounced there than anywhere else in the world.No I just can see difference between nonsense written by little nationalistic European kids and facts.

Once again, how do you know how Ancient Indo-Europeans looked like.

Ancient Persians, Hettites, Mitanni etc. were also Indo-European speakers and they never looked like modern day Europeans.

Moderday European look like their ancestors Y-DNA hg. 'E', 'I' and N1C1..

Templar
14-11-12, 18:46
Moderday European look like their ancestors Y-DNA hg. 'E', 'I' and N1C1..

You can't just label phenotypes by their halogroup. If you are referring to a pattern by which they go (as in what their most likely appearance is). Then you should say so.

"I" people were tall, dark, and big-boned.
"E" looked pretty much exactly like "J" people.
"N1C1" were Mongoloid.

None of these describe how most Europeans look. Because most Europeans have light eyes/hair. R1b/R1a people brought these light features.

"No I just can see difference between nonsense written by little nationalistic European kids and facts." Wow, name-calling?

Templar
14-11-12, 18:49
Once again, how do you know how Ancient Indo-Europeans looked like.

Because there are clear PATTERNS when looking at all the available evidence. The people who look the most Indo-European are probably the ones who retained the highest percentage of the original Indo-European haplogroups. Specifically East Slavs, Baltic people, and Celtic people. East SlavsBaltic people and Celtic people have the highest percentages of R1a and R1b; respectively.

Goga
14-11-12, 18:50
You can't just label phenotypes by their halogroup. If you are referring to a pattern by which they go (as in what their most likely appearance is). Then you should say so.

"I" people were tall, dark, and big-boned.
"E" looked pretty much exactly like "J" people.
"N1C1" were Mongoloid.

None of these describe how most Europeans look. Because most Europeans have light eyes/hair. R1b/R1a people brought these light features.

"No I just can see difference between nonsense written by little nationalistic European kids and facts." Wow, name-calling?
Otzi was in Europe before Indo-European speakers arrived in Europe and he looked very European!


What are youtalking about/ “GENETICALLY Indo-European” doesn’t exist. Once againIndo-European is a linguistic term. You’re an Indo-European or you’re Not. It’sthat simple.

Kurd ain’t noEuropean, but doesn’t mean that Kurds ain’t no Indo-European. Ancient first andoriginal Indo-Europeans were not European either. They were not from Europe.
And we don’tknow how they looked like, since we don’t ‘have their remnant/NDA

Templar
14-11-12, 18:50
Ancient Persians, Hettites, Mitanni etc. were also Indo-European speakers and they never looked like modern day Europeans.


I already explained this. Scroll up.

Goga
14-11-12, 18:51
Because there are clear PATTERNS when looking at all the available evidence. The people who look the most Indo-European are probably the ones who retained the highest percentage of the original Indo-European haplogroups. Specifically East Slavs, Baltic people, and Celtic people. East SlavsBaltic people and Celtic people have the highest percentages of R1a and R1b; respectively.
LMAO, Baltic people and East Slavs are more Mongolid than Indo-European.
They were the last people that got Indo-Europised.

Templar
14-11-12, 18:51
What are youtalking about/ “GENETICALLY Indo-European” doesn’t exist.

Then you are disagreeing with the vast majority of people on Eupedia (including its creator).

Templar
14-11-12, 18:53
LMAO, Baltic people and East Slavs are more Mongolid than Indo-European.

They actually have very little Mongoloid ancestry. That rumor was spread by Nazis to justify their extermination. Why are you spreading this inaccurate rumor?

Goga
14-11-12, 18:54
They actually have very little Mongoloid ancestry. That rumor was spread by Nazis to justify their extermination. Why are you spreading this inaccurate rumor?
Lol, have you seen how much of hg. N1c1 they have?

Gosh
14-11-12, 18:57
stop spamming, plz

Templar
14-11-12, 18:57
Lol, have you seen how much of hg. N1c1 they have?

If you look at autosomal analysis of their DNA, they have very little Mongoloid DNA. Maybe the N1c1 that they have, they got from an already mixed population, so the genetic impact would have been much smaller.

Goga
14-11-12, 19:00
If you look at autosomal analysis of their DNA, they have very little Mongoloid DNA. Maybe the N1c1 that they have, they got from an already mixed population, so the genetic impact would have been much smaller. Autosomal DNA says nothing to me. It only says that Balts and East Slavic people are almost the same. Their dominant aDNA component is partly Mongoloid, since their aDNA component contains Y-DNA haplogroups N1c1 and Q in it.

Dienekes wrote an intereting article about it.


They’re more Mongoloid that Indo-European. They were the last people that got Indo-Europised.

Gosh
14-11-12, 19:00
as I remember, we had some maps on Eupedia which show quite high amount of I2a in Kurdistan. Are that maps O.K.?

Templar
14-11-12, 19:02
AutosomalDNA says nothing to me.

That is your problem. Autosomal DNA is much more telling than y-haplogroups.


They’re moreMongoloid that Indo-European. They were the last people that gotIndo-Europised.

No, they are some of the MOST Indo-European people. That is why many of them have round faces. It is because of Indo-European ancestry mostly, not Mongoloid.

Templar
14-11-12, 19:05
Here is an autosomal chart:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMVdaRebw5I/AAAAAAAACxE/QuyuSf-JWgk/s1600/ADMIXTURE10.png

Templar
14-11-12, 19:07
as I remember, we had some maps on Eupedia which show quite high amount of I2a in Kurdistan. Are that maps O.K.?

It seems rather odd to me too. But I guess it is possible.

Goga
14-11-12, 19:08
That is your problem. Autosomal DNA is much more telling than y-haplogroups.

No, they are some of the MOST Indo-European people. That is why many of them have round faces. It is because of Indo-European ancestry mostly, not Mongoloid.Noo, their NorhtEast European aDNA component is partly Mongoloid / East Asian!

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/10/the-indo-european-invasion-of-baltic.html

sparkey
14-11-12, 19:10
as I remember, we had some maps on Eupedia which show quite high amount of I2a in Kurdistan. Are that maps O.K.?

I think they were mainly Maciamo's guess of which I2 subclade is probably in Kurdistan after reading studies showing somewhat high levels of I2 in Kurds. But the few I2 Kurds who have been tested precisely have come up as mainly I2a2a M223+ (old I2b1), IIRC. I've read that one tested Z161+, which is the "Germanic" branch of the side of I2a2a nicknamed "Cont."

See KurdishDNA (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/08/i2a2a-m233-old-i2b1-z161-found-in.html).

Goga
14-11-12, 19:11
And here: http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/alder-estimates-of-east-eurasian.html

It says that native DOMINANT NorhEast European aDNA component in Northern Europeans (Balts & Slavs) is partly Mongoloid/East Asian!

Templar
14-11-12, 19:26
It says that native DOMINANT NorhEast European aDNA component in Northern Europeans (Balts & Slavs) is partly Mongoloid/East Asian!

The phenotype of East Slavs isn't East Asian at all. All the supposed Mongoloid facial features are the result of Indo-European ancestry. Indo-Europeans had wide cheeks, and roundish faces. But they probably didn't have the Mongoloid eyelids. Who else is exactly like this? Balts, Slavs, and Celts.

Templar
14-11-12, 19:28
Kurds on the other hand have: long faces, a gracile build, and excessive hairiness. Who else has these features? The neighboring countries, all of whom in the majority are carriers of Y-haplogroup J.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 19:31
Kurds on the other hand have: long faces, a gracile build, and excessive hairiness. Who else has these features? The neighboring countries, all of whom in the majority are carriers of Y-haplogroup J.

Lol Kurds aren't all hairy and aren't gracile like their neighbours. Alot of Kurds are actually robust. In Northern Kurdistan(Turkey) Kurds are mostly of Alpnie or Irano-Alpine stock, usually fairer skinned but darker haired and eyed. In the southern-eastern and eastern part of Kurdistan(Iranian), usually Kurds there are more persistantly Iranid and generally slightly taller than their neighbours. They also have higher frequencies of light eyes and hair.

And haplogroups don't dictate phenotype or vice versa, plus J1c3 is below 10% amongst Kurds overall. R1a-z93 is actually quite common amongst the Zazaki and Kurmanji Kurds in the North.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 19:32
The phenotype of East Slavs isn't East Asian at all. All the supposed Mongoloid facial features are the result of Indo-European ancestry. Indo-Europeans had wide cheeks, and roundish faces. But they probably didn't have the Mongoloid eyelids. Who else is exactly like this? Balts, Slavs, and Celts.

There is mongoloid influence in eastern slavS, you can see that in their phenotypes. However this is mostly in the east-baltid type phenotype.

Goga
14-11-12, 19:35
The phenotype of East Slavs isn't East Asian at all. All the supposed Mongoloid facial features are the result of Indo-European ancestry. Indo-Europeans had wide cheeks, and roundish faces. But they probably didn't have the Mongoloid eyelids. Who else is exactly like this? Balts, Slavs, and Celts.
About which proto-IE-ans are you talking about? They found some proto-Slavic (Russian) human remnants in Eastern Russian, but nobody is saying that they were proto-Indo-Europeans. Some Balts even don't speak an Indo-European language, lol. But a Finno-Ugric language. That those folks are the real Indo-European is the biggest joke ever, lol! I mean they don't even speak an Indo-European language... :rolleyes2: :laughing:

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 19:39
About which proto-IE are you talking about? They found some proto-Slavic human remnants in Eastern Russian, but nobody is saying that they were proto-Indo-Europeans. Some Balts even don't speak an Indo-European language, lol. But a Finno-Ugric language. That those folks are the real Indo-European is the biggest joke ever, lol! I mean they don't even speak an Indo-European language... :rolleyes2: :laughing:

Very true.

Templar
14-11-12, 19:39
Lol Kurds aren't all hairy and aren't gracile like their neighbours. Alot of Kurds are actually robust. In Northern Kurdistan(Turkey) Kurds are mostly of Alpnie or Irano-Alpine stock, usually fairer skinned but darker haired and eyed. In the southern-eastern and eastern part of Kurdistan(Iranian), usually Kurds there are more persistantly Iranid and generally slightly taller than their neighbours. They also have higher frequencies of light eyes and hair.

You are using outdated terminology like "Iranid", and "Aplid". They were created within the context of racist Germanic superiority theories. Yes Kurds do have some Indo-European traits, but not nearly as much Europeans do. The Middle East was highly populated, an invasion by nomads could not have changed the phenotype of the native people as much as it could in a place like Europe (where hunter-gatherers mostly lived).

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 19:41
Here is an autosomal chart:



Nice cahrt

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 19:42
You are using outdated terminology like "Iranid", and "Aplid". They were created within the context of racist Germanic superiority theories. Yes Kurds do have some Indo-European traits, but not nearly as much Europeans do. The Middle East was highly populated, an invasion by nomads could not have changed the phenotype of the native people as much as it could in a place like Europe (where hunter-gatherers mostly lived).

Alpine and Iranid isn't "out-dated", Iranid(dolicephalic, hooked nosed, Meduim to tall in height, eastern Iranids usually refined, whilst western Iranids generally more robust). If it is outdated it doesn't explain why it is present in the middle-east. And Alpines are common all over Europe(Short faced, brachephalic, concave nosed).

Templar
14-11-12, 19:44
About which proto-IE are you talking about? They found some proto-Slavic human remnants in Eastern Russian, but nobody is saying that they were proto-Indo-Europeans. Some Balts even don't speak an Indo-European language, lol. But a Finno-Ugric language. That those folks are the real Indo-European is the biggest joke ever, lol! I mean they don't even speak an Indo-European language...

What are you talking about? Mongoloid eyelids are very rare among Balts and Slavs. Have you ever visited Belarus, Poland, Lithuania, etc?

Goga
14-11-12, 19:46
You are using outdated terminology like "Iranid", and "Aplid". They were created within the context of racist Germanic superiority theories. Yes Kurds do have some Indo-European traits, but not nearly as much Europeans do. The Middle East was highly populated, an invasion by nomads could not have changed the phenotype of the native people as much as it could in a place like Europe (where hunter-gatherers mostly lived).
No, modern North European DNA is very close to ancient native North European DNA, close to native paleolithic Europeans (who were partly Mongoloid).

Do not believe everything what racist Turks, Arabs, Assyrians, Armenians write about Kurds. They hate Kurds, spread propaganda about them and deny their existence. They clame Kurdish homeland and if Kurds don't exist it's esier for them to grab that

Templar
14-11-12, 19:48
Alpine and Iranid isn't "out-dated", Iranid(dolicephalic, hooked nosed, Meduim to tall in height, eastern Iranids usually refined, whilst western Iranids generally more robust). If it is outdated it doesn't explain why it is present in the middle-east. And Alpines are common all over Europe(Short faced, brachephalic, concave nosed).

The terms were recruited before the advent of genetics. Now we know why groups have certain features and others don't

Middle Eastern people have a phenotype suited to living in arid conditions (long nose, tanned skin, hairiness (to keep you warm during the desert nights), etc). Indo-Europeans had wide cheeks and short stature to retain heat in their cold surroundings, a small nose to avoid frost-bite, and a lack of body hair so that the hairs don't freeze.

Templar
14-11-12, 19:52
Do not believe everything what racist Turks, Arabs, Assyrians, Armenians write about Kurds. They hate Kurds, spread propaganda about them and deny their existence.

I haven't read any of that, i'm only looking at the evidence present.


No, modern North European DNA is very close to ancient native North European DNA, close to native paleolithic Europeans (who were partly Mongoloid).

Cro-Magnons were NOT part Mongoloid. There was no Mongoloid influence in Europe 30,000 years ago. It is relatively recent. All the evidence shows that the Mongoloid component in Fins and the surrounding people, is relatively recent.

Goga
14-11-12, 19:55
I haven't read any of that, i'm only looking at the evidence present.


Cro-Magnons were NOT part Mongoloid. There was no Mongoloid influence in Europe 30,000 years ago. It is relatively recent. All the evidence shows that the Mongoloid component in Fins and the surrounding people, is relatively recent.Please, show me your evidence on proto-IE speakers. I want to see it. Please share it with me. :rolleyes2:

No, Mongoloid / East Asian DNA in NorthEuropeans is very old.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/alder-estimates-of-east-eurasian.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/10/the-indo-european-invasion-of-baltic.html

Templar
14-11-12, 19:57
This is from a research article about the ethnogenesis of Finns:

According to the traditional migration theory basedprimarily on the linguists’ family tree model and estimated dates
of linguistic divergences, the Finno-Ugrians (the Baltic-Finns
and Saami/Lapps) arrived in the Baltic region only about three
thousand years ago from the Proto-Uralic homeland in the east

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 19:57
The terms were recruited before the advent of genetics. Now we know why groups have certain features and others don't

Middle Eastern people have a phenotype suited to living in arid conditions (long nose, tanned skin, hairiness (to keep you warm during the desert nights), etc). Indo-Europeans had wide cheeks and short stature to retain heat in their cold surroundings, a small nose to avoid frost-bite, and a lack of body hair so that the hairs don't freeze.
Your using "Middle-easterner" as a single racial term. Which is just silly. That is like lumping all Europeans the same. Well we do have some general ideas why phenotypes and how they could of formed, no one is stating it is a result of genetics. Haplogroups aren't something that should dictate that.
If you have been to the west asia or Kurdistan you will realise there are very diverse phenotypes, but mostly Iranids are quite persistant. Highlander Kurds are usually depigmented Iranids, they developed hook noses and deep set eyes due to the cold temparture in the winter. And the Medes probably did possess light types aswell, so that contributed. Funnily enough long high ridged noses develop because of the cold, that is why alot of Kurds from my clan possess this feature.

Templar
14-11-12, 19:58
No, Mongoloid / East Asian DNA in NorthEuropeans is very old.
Your link doesn't prove anything.

Goga
14-11-12, 19:59
This is from a research article about the ethnogenesis of Finns:
According to the traditional migration THEORY, THEORY for god sake. Lol. I don't even know who wrote this.

DNA results say something different. These are the real fact.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/alder-estimates-of-east-eurasian.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/10/the-indo-european-invasion-of-baltic.html

Templar
14-11-12, 20:01
Funnily enough long high ridged noses develop because of the cold, that is why alot of Kurds from my clan possess this feature.
Then how come nearly every people on the planet who live in a cold environment, have small snub noses?


Your using "Middle-easterner" as a single racial term. Which is just silly. That is like lumping all Europeans the same.

The Middle-East was diverse before the agricultural revolution. The few groups that first developed it, overwhelmed their hunter-gather neighbors, and this resulted in a fairly uniform one ethnic appearance.


Highlander Kurds are usually depigmented Iranids
They are depigmented due to admixture with Indo-Europeans (who are pale).

Yetos
14-11-12, 20:02
The phenotype of East Slavs isn't East Asian at all. All the supposed Mongoloid facial features are the result of Indo-European ancestry. Indo-Europeans had wide cheeks, and roundish faces. But they probably didn't have the Mongoloid eyelids. Who else is exactly like this? Balts, Slavs, and Celts.

are you sure?

Tocharian mummies the opposite,

I think you connecting the alpine race, which also had straight hair, with IE,
although the mummies and the tombs show another phenotype, curly (not grape) hair, and thin faces, and no wide cheeks,

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 20:02
This is what I got from m dodecad results:
0.10% Siberian
0.47% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
18.90% Southwest_Asian
0.17% East_Asian
19.75% Mediterranean
0.72% Australasian
0.57% Arctic
48.93% West_Asian
4.15% North_European
5.66% South_Asian
0.58% East_African

Goga
14-11-12, 20:03
Your link doesn't prove anything.
Hg. N1c1 in NorthEast Europe is native to that region. In most places there it's more than 40%. And it's not really an early proto-Indo-European marker, isn't it? Another FACT.

Once agian, please show me FACTS!

Templar
14-11-12, 20:05
Highlander Kurds are usually depigmented Iranids
I am actually. I think that what people call "Alpines" and "East Balts" are actually both Indo-Europeans.


although the mummies and the tombs show another phenotype, light curly hair, and thin faces, and no wide cheeks,

Actually I heard they had "somewhat Mongoloid" (which could be a reference to their wide faces) features. I will try to find the link to where I read that.

But even if they did have thin faces and curly hair, it could have been from mixing with Middle-Easterners on their way East?

Templar
14-11-12, 20:07
Hg. N1c1 in NorthEast Europe is native to that region. In most places there it's more than 40%. And it's not really an early proto-Indo-European marker, isn't it?

Maybe that specific subclave is "native" but it came in the form of another "N" subclave.

Goga
14-11-12, 20:11
Maybe that specific subclave is "native" but it came in the form of another "N" subclave.
So, you do agree that N1c1 has something to do with Mongoloid folks?

Exactly, and Baltic & Slavic N1c1 is part of their main NortEast aDNA component. This only means that their main aDNA component is partly Mongoloid / East Asian. And the gact that folks in that area speak a Finno-Ugric language prooves that the core of those folks is actually Mongoloid.

Templar
14-11-12, 20:13
Exactly, and Baltic & Slavic N1c1 is part of their main NortEast aDNA component. This only means that their main aDNA component is partly Mongoloid/ East Asia

It is an insignificant part of their overall genetic makeup. Otherwise they would have epicanthic folds.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 20:18
Then how come nearly every people on the planet who live in a cold environment, have small snub noses?


Nordics don't, Dinarids don't, nor do Iranids. Have you actually seen Kurds from all parts of Kurdistan?


The Middle-East was diverse before the agricultural revolution. The few groups that first developed it, overwhelmed their hunter-gather neighbors, and this resulted in a fairly uniform one ethnic appearance.


Really so Arabs look like Kurds, Turks look like Levantines? Nope, there are big differences within the West Asia.


Highlander Kurds are usually depigmented Iranids They are depigmented due to admixture with Indo-Europeans (who are pale).
Can you prove that, can you also tell me autosmally what the indo-iranian Indo-European would of been? They are depigmented because they live in the cold climate and skin colour can change to adapt the enviroment. So even if the indo-europeans were pale, it doesn't matter considering the migrated to different regions which were much warmer.

Goga
14-11-12, 20:19
It is an insignificant part of their overall genetic makeup. Otherwise they would have epicanthic folds.Maybe they're just a NorthWest Eurasian subgroup/branch of Mongoloid human species. They are mixed with Europoids. But the fact that folks in that area speak a Finno-Ugric language proves for met that the core of those folks is actually Mongoloid.

So not the same as their Mongoloid cousins in NortEAST Asia, but they share the same roots!

Templar
14-11-12, 20:22
Nordics don't, Dinarids don't

Both Nordics and Dinarics are descendants of Cro-Magnons. They have the highest rates of haplogroup I, which is the oldest European Y-haplogroup. Cro-Magnons aren't exception to the rule, because they descended (split actually) from similar people as "J" people/Iranids did. Another common trait about descendants of Cro-Magnons is tallness. The tallest people in the world are Scandinavians and Dinaric people.

Templar
14-11-12, 20:24
So not the same as their Mongoloid cousins in NortEAST Asia, but they share the same roots!

As do Indo-Europeans. Look at the haplogroup tree of R1, it connects to the Mongoloid haplogroups. But this is too far in the past to be relevant to this discussion.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 20:28
Both Nordics and Dinarics are descendants of Cro-Magnons. They have the highest rates of haplogroup I, which is the oldest European Y-haplogroup. Cro-Magnons aren't exception to the rule, because they descended (split actually) from similar people as "J" people/Iranids did. Another common trait about descendants of Cro-Magnons is tallness. The tallest people in the world are Scandinavians and Dinaric people.

(You still ignored me other two replies)

Why are you linking phenotypes and haplogroups? Kurds aren't even mostly J, nor is it a single haplogroup. I haplogroup amongst scandavians is different to that of the one in Balkaners. Plus Nordics aren't cro-magnoids. They're faces are too narrow and long, they are more refined, and actually they are probably only tall due to a better diet. 100 years ago scandavians actualyl were one of the shortest people in Europe.

Goga
14-11-12, 20:32
As do Indo-Europeans. Look at the haplogroup tree of R1, it connects to the Mongoloid haplogroups. But this is too far in the past to be relevant to this discussion.Who's saying that R1* is Indo-European? There's even R1b in native African folks. There's almost no R1a in Western Europe (Spain, Frace,Holland etc.) and there's a lot R1a among Turkic speakers.

Templar
14-11-12, 20:34
Why are you linking phenotypes and haplogroups?
It is a convenient way to group people, but of course you have to be careful while doing so, which I am.


Kurds aren't even mostly J

It is their single large haplogroup.


Plus Nordics aren't cro-magnoids. They're faces are too narrow and long, they are more refined

That is true, but they could have changed since then, no? The broadness found in Cro-Magnon skulls was likely limited to that time period. But, I still think "Nordic" skull shape is still a good indication of their ancestry.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 20:35
Who's saying that R1* is Indo-European? There's even R1b in native African folks. There's almost no R1a in Western Europe (Spain, Frace,Holland etc.) and there's a lot R1a among Turkic speakers.

Well R1a-z83 is proto-slavonic, whilst R1a-z93 is was carried by the proto-indo-Iranians. Evidence as North Iranians, Kurds, Turkmens and Tajikis possess it. It actually it at the highest of its frequency amongst Talysh.

Templar
14-11-12, 20:36
here's a lot R1a among Turkic speakers.

Indo-European admixture. Turkic people live mostly in Central Asia, and that used to be a heavily Indo-European area.


There's even R1b in native African folks.

That is till a mystery to me.


There's almost no R1a in Western Europe (Spain, Frace,Holland etc.)

R1b was also Indo-European. Why do you think they spread chariot technology wherever they went?

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 20:40
It is a convenient way to group people, but of course you have to be careful while doing so, which I am.


I personally wouldn't.


It is their single large haplogroup.


No not really, nor is J1c3 or J1* the same, nor is J2. It's like saying R1a1a and R1b1b is pretty much the same thing. Although both have western asian origins.



That is true, but they could have changed since then, no? The broadness found in Cro-Magnon skulls was likely limited to that time period. But, I still think "Nordic" skull shape is still a good indication of their ancestry.
Broadness develops in populations that have been sedentrized. You can actualyl see it with Kurds. My tribe is still mostly dolicephalic, as they were only sedenterized during the later 19th century, whilst other Kurds have been sedenterized for a long time, and are Mesocephalic leaning more towards brachephally. Actually Kurdish cephalic index is closest to that of Northern Europeans. Cro-mangons(Alpines, Baltids, borrberies, Gorid)

Templar
14-11-12, 20:49
I personally wouldn't.
I personally would rather Y-haplogroups, rather than out-dated and irrelevant terms like Gorid, Borrberies, etc.

Just look at the genetic data, it is simple.

Mostly Cro-Magnon: Germanic people, and people in Dinaric alps.
Mostly Indo-European/or atleast very Indo-European: Celts, Balts, and Slavs.
Mostly Near/Middle-Eastern: Southern Europeans, Middle Easterners, North Indians.

There is no need to say "Alpine, Nordic, Dinaric", most of these categories are actually various kinds of mixes. East Balts are fairly "pure" Indo-Europeans, while Alpines have some near/middle eastern ancestry from the neolithic revolution.

Templar
14-11-12, 20:57
Broadness develops in populations that have been sedentrized.
There are MANY exceptions to that rule. The first civilizations were populated by thin rather than broad-skulled people. And there were many nomadic Native Americans (and they ofcourse had broad skulls).

The environment doesn't change your skull-shape as quickly as many people seem to think.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 21:05
I personally would rather Y-haplogroups, rather than out-dated and irrelevant terms like Gorid, Borrberies, etc.


Y dna shouldn't be used as a major determining factor of someone's genetic make-up. Patenral lingeages can be changed within a generation. Autosmal dna is what counts.
You still haven't showed me any phenotypes of the Kurds or middle-easterners. Show me cro magnon Nordic Germans if you may.
Anyway south slavs look completely different from east slavs.

Here are some Kurds from my clan:
http://oi49.tinypic.com/2rw9m9v.jpg (http://oi49.tinypic.com/2rw9m9v.jpg)

East baltids are pure indo-european?
5763I didn't know the indo-europeans were brachephlaic and leptomorphic.


East Balts are fairly "pure" Indo-Europeans, while Alpines have some near/middle eastern ancestry from the neolithic revolution.
You just stated Alpines don't exist, so now they do and they have some near easterner? Make up your mind. What was the native phenotype of the Europeans then? Because Alpine is pretty common throughout Europe.

Goga
14-11-12, 21:07
Indo-European admixture. Turkic people live mostly in Central Asia, and that used to be a heavily Indo-European area.

That is till a mystery to me.

R1b was also Indo-European. Why do you think they spread chariot technology wherever they went?
No, it's just the reality and the fact that pretty much destroys the argument that R1* is an Indo-European marker.

But we're way of topic now and I've got the filling we will not agree with each other, since you don’t come with any proof.

With all due respect, you just believe in this nonsense because it fits in your Eurocentric way of thinking. This is very human if you ask me. And the thing isthat you're just a simple human, never forget that.

You can believe in everything what you want, but don't come with stupid claims that Kurds "WERE" Indo-Europeans. Kurds still "ARE" Indo-Europeans.

Europeans do not have a monopoly on this term. Indo-European means: speaker of an IE language between India and Europe.

Goga
14-11-12, 21:11
Most Europeans are Europoid Indo-Europeans.
Kurds are Caucasoid (Iranic) Indo-Europeans.

Bye, and have a nice day.

Templar
14-11-12, 21:13
Autosmal dna is what counts.

It can be flawed in many ways.


Show me cro magnon Nordic Germans if you may.

There are many, just one example is Dolph Lundgren.


Anyway south slavs look completely different from east slavs.

South Slavs aren't genetically Slavic (maybe just a bit, but it depends on the country), just culturally and linguistically.


East baltids are pure indo-european?

Purer than most, yes. Your perception of Indo-Europeans is tainted by history. European Imperialist race-science is DEEPLY flawed.


I didn't know the indo-europeans were brachephlaic and leptomorphic.

Ideal for cold climates.


You just stated Alpines don't exist, so now they do and they have some near easterner? They don't exist as a unique sunrace, they are a mix.


What was the native phenotype of the Europeans then?

Tall, tanned, long-nosed, broad bones, hairy, and with a skull that is both broad and long.


Because Alpine is pretty common throughout Europe.

Indo-Europeans had horses, great numbers, and bronze weapons. The majority of native Europeans were still hunter-gatherers. They got completely massacred.

My views are shared by most Eupedia. Why can't you be open-minded enough to atleast consider it? Read Maciamo's threads about it. He explains it really well.

Templar
14-11-12, 21:16
With all due respect, you just believe in this nonsense because it fits in yourEurocentric way of thinking. This is very human if you ask me. And the thing isthat you’re just a simple human, never forget that.


I am not trying to offend you or to belittle you. I apologize if I did. I don't consider myself to have much Indo-European ancestry either. I don't support Eurocentric theories that "Aryans" came from Europe and created Civilization. We all know that is completely inaccurate. But Europeans due to the low-technology of the inhabitants during the Indo-European expansion, were impacted more than the other regions Indo-Europeans conquered. Do you see what I mean?

Goga
14-11-12, 21:18
My views are shared by most Eupedia. Why can't you be open-minded enough to atleast consider it? Read Maciamo's threads about it. He explains it really well.
No, ask Maiamo one more time. According to Maciamo proto-Indo-Europeans were 'darker' than modern Nordics.

Don't believe in nonsense on forumbiodiversity.

Templar
14-11-12, 21:21
I don't go on forumbiodiversity. They have out-dated views and use out-dated terminology. This is what Maciamo said: "Neolithic to Bronze-Age steppe people appear to have had Proto-Europoid features (mixed European and Mongoloid features, although probably not slanted eyes), like wide, thick-boned faces and low skulls, which was quickly lost when they interbred with other Europeans. They almost certainly carried with them the genetic mutations for blue eyes, fair hair and red hair, as these can be found in all the regions of Eurasia that they colonised, including in the 4000 year-old Tarim mummies."

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 21:29
Well you know I just happen to be the only "cro-magnon" Kurd right? Well I showed you a picture gallery of my tribe, a minority of light hair and eyes, majority being robush and dolicephalic.


It can be flawed in many ways.


In waht way exactly?


There are many, just one example is Dolph Lundgren (http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=dolph lundgren).



That is only one example, why don't you show me crowds or pictures of other Swedes. And anyways Dolph is Nordic+CM, not Nordic alone.
This is a textbook Nordic: 5764 Seems to be dolicephalic, very refined. You wouldn't say this typica is typical? I mean even Scandavians themselves say it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting there aren't any robust Nordic types, just like there are alot of Robust Iranid types, but your over-exaggerating the numbers. Most North-western europeans, are more refined in features.


Ideal for cold climates.


I would of thought it was the other way around, considering scandavians and highlander Kurds are the opposite, but whatever.


They don't exist as a unique sunrace, they are a mix.
Your getting confused, Alpine in itself is meant to be sub-divided into different sub-races as I stated them before.


Indo-Europeans had horses, great numbers, and bronze weapons. The majority of native Europeans were still hunter-gatherers. They got completely massacred.

My views are shared by most Eupedia. Why can't you be open-minded enough to atleast consider it? Read Maciamo's threads about it. He explains it really well.
If you views are shared by other members, that doesn't render it to be correct or the right one. If these so called native europeans were massacred by indo-europeans, then why is it their y-dna isn't R1a1a. Surely if the paternal lingeage was killed off, then R1a would eb much more common in southern Europe, and South-eastern Europe like Bosnia.

Goga
14-11-12, 21:30
It’s ok mate. I'm just sensitive on this issue since Kurdish enemies, like Turks, Assyrians, Armenians, Arabs are denying out identity and try to wipe us and our language out.

According to Turks Kurds are Turkish. Kurdish was and is a forbidden language in Turkey

According to Arabs Kurds are Arabic. Saddam used chemical weapons against us.

According to Assyrians Kurds are Assyrians and our homeland Kurdistan is actually Assyria.

According toA rmenians Kurds are Armenian and our homeland Kurdistan is actually Armenia.

If you deny somebodies existence he revolts and goes in rebellion, and this is what I'm doing. If Kurdistan was independent I wouldn't even bother you and interfere here.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 21:35
I don't go on forumbiodiversity. They have out-dated views and use out-dated terminology. This is what Maciamo said: "Neolithic to Bronze-Age steppe people appear to have had Proto-Europoid features (mixed European and Mongoloid features, although probably not slanted eyes), like wide, thick-boned faces and low skulls, which was quickly lost when they interbred with other Europeans. They almost certainly carried with them the genetic mutations for blue eyes, fair hair and red hair, as these can be found in all the regions of Eurasia that they colonised, including in the 4000 year-old Tarim mummies."
Blue eyes developed somewhere around the caspian sea region. And light features doesn't imply them to be Nordic.
Here is some reconstructions of the skulls found at Andronovo burial sites:

5765
5766
Funnily enough they appear Iranid, just like this Pashtun and Kurd:
5767

5768

Templar
14-11-12, 21:38
This is a textbook Nordic
All the "textbook" things can't be taken seriously. They developed during a time when racial supremacy was commonly believed and enforced. North-Western European countries ended up dominating the world, and they wanted to have a "justification" for it. They knew about how in the past Indo-Europeans conquered huge swathes of territories, and so they wanted to associate with them. You to go beyond the propaganda and look at the data.


Well I showed you a picture gallery of my tribe, a minority of light hair and eyes, majority being robush and dolicephalic.

You did? I didn't see your link. Mind posting it again?


Most North-western europeans, are more refined in features.

Due to the neolithic migrations of farmers from the near-east.


Your getting confused, Alpine in itself is meant to be sub-divided into different sub-races as I stated them before.

It doesn't matter what it was intended as, since its very use is flawed.


If these so called native europeans were massacred by indo-europeans, then why is it their y-dna isn't R1a1a. Surely if the paternal lingeage was killed off, then R1a would eb much more common in southern Europe, and South-eastern Europe like Bosnia.

Their conquests were mostly limited to plains. Areas which were isolated (such as the Dinarid mountain range) were impacted much less. Also, Southern Europe was civilization-wise (agriculture) on par with the Middle-East, so they weren't affected as much as Northern Europe was.

Templar
14-11-12, 21:40
It’s ok mate. I'm just sensitive on this issue since Kurdish enemies, like Turks, Assyrians, Armenians, Arabs are denying out identity and try to wipe us and our language out.

I know how that feels. It is a terrible feeling. I myself as a Bosnian am constantly bombarded with propaganda saying that I am Serb or Croat. I think we started off on the wrong foot.

Templar
14-11-12, 21:42
Blue eyes developed somewhere around the caspian sea region. And light features doesn't imply them to be Nordic.

That doesn't go against my theories. It could have been Central Asia I.E. the Indo-European homeland.


Here is some reconstructions of the skulls found at Andronovo burial sites:

Where is the location of Andronovo? Can you link me a map.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 21:51
Here are some of my tribesmen:
http://oi49.tinypic.com/2rw9m9v.jpg

Templar
14-11-12, 21:53
About Andronovo, look at this:

The skulls from Andronovo comfortably match modern Central and Eastern European crania in terms of complex metric and non-metric traits. The "Caucasoids" here are modern Slavs (inc. Poles), and fit right in the middle of the Indo-Iranian samples.



http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/images/statusicon/wol_error.gif
Click this bar to view the full image.


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/cranial.jpg

Templar
14-11-12, 21:55
Jjumuneer, I am not trying to attack your identity, culture, language, or anything. I am just saying that Kurds are a mix of Indo-Europeans and the Middle/Near-Eastern people that were there already. There is nothing wrong with the Middle/Near-East. That is the cradle of civilization. Most Europeans have atleast some Middle/Near-Eastern ancestry.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 21:58
Well Kurds on DNA tribes have the highest Indo-Iranian component, known as 'Persian'. Showing we have preserved our indo-Iranian lingeage much more strongly than our neighbours.
Here this link shows it:
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/3473/75590976.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4255/23442613.jpg

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 22:01
Jjumuneer, I am not trying to attack your identity, culture, language, or anything. I am just saying that Kurds are a mix of Indo-Europeans and the Middle/Near-Eastern people that were there already. There is nothing wrong with the Middle/Near-East. That is the cradle of civilization. Most Europeans have atleast some Middle/Near-Eastern ancestry.

My friend why would I be ashamed of being a west asian? Lol but you can just look at my results of 23andme and my mcdonald's anayalsis, clearly I have a strong indo-Iranian component, along with the rest of my tribe. No one is denying that there is also a strong native component amongst Kurds, that would be stupid to do so. Though I think you just don't believe in phenotypes. Personally I believe phenotypes can change over time. Even the 'Ice lady' found in Altai mountains is indo-Iranian and looks it. She possess those Iranid features of a hooked nose and dolicephically.

Templar
14-11-12, 22:03
Well Kurds on DNA tribes have the highest Indo-Iranian component, known as 'Persian'. Showing we have preserved our indo-Iranian lingeage much more strongly than our neighbours.

I don't disagree with you.


Here this link shows it:

That is a very cool map.

The thing that I am arguing is that the reason why Kurds and surrounding people might look "Nordic" isn't because Indo-Europeans had similar facial features, but rather because the original Scandinavians were close cousins to Near-Eastern people. Haplogroup IJ split into I and J. J stayed in the near/middle East, while I went into Europe. Please don't spread the old theories that were created by imperialists to justify genocide and conquest. Indo-Europeans looked like Celts and Slavs mostly. But I guess the combination of Indo-European genes with Middle Eastern ones can create a similar appearance to the Nordic one because both are combination of similar lineages.

Templar
14-11-12, 22:06
Lol but you can just look at my results of 23andme and my mcdonald's anayalsis, clearly I have a strong indo-Iranian component, along with the rest of my tribe. No one is denying that there is also a strong native component amongst Kurds, that would be stupid to do so. Though I think you just don't believe in phenotypes. Personally I believe phenotypes can change over time. Even the 'Ice lady' found in Altai mountains is indo-Iranian and looks it. She possess those Iranid features of a hooked nose and dolicephically.

Look at what I posted about Andronovo. It says their skulls are most similar to East Europeans. That is exactly what I was saying all along!

Templar
14-11-12, 22:06
Oh and here is where I found it:
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2428

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 22:16
Look at what I posted about Andronovo. It says their skulls are most similar to East Europeans. That is exactly what I was saying all along!

I would diagree slightly. Modern day slavs are usually not long faced. Whilst all those skulls look like Kurdish skulls, and I see this from first hand experience. You can even see those pictures I sent you, they are quite represent of Kurds from my area.


My maternal haplogroup is T1 which was actually found in frequencies up to 20% in central asia in andronovo burial sites:


Twenty samples were found to belong to west Eurasian haplogroups (U2, U4,
U5a1, T1, T3, T4, H5a, H6, HV, K, and I), whereas the 6 remaining samples were attributed to east Eurasian haplogroups (Z, G2a, C, F1b and N9a).
http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/more-on-prehistoric-south-siberians.html

Yetos
14-11-12, 22:19
I don't go on forumbiodiversity. They have out-dated views and use out-dated terminology. This is what Maciamo said: "Neolithic to Bronze-Age steppe people appear to have had Proto-Europoid features (mixed European and Mongoloid features, although probably not slanted eyes), like wide, thick-boned faces and low skulls, which was quickly lost when they interbred with other Europeans. They almost certainly carried with them the genetic mutations for blue eyes, fair hair and red hair, as these can be found in all the regions of Eurasia that they colonised, including in the 4000 year-old Tarim mummies."

Blue eyes and fair hair in Tarim basin mummies?

I think they are red hair and from Anatolian origin, Tocharians were Anatolian tribe not not Eurasian steppe people,
and surely non big cheeks and round head, but the opposite

I think you are connecting Baltic female mutations of Blondism, as also the old pre-IE race of alpine type with IE,

A question, Blond straight hairs are they IE like?

Which looks like IE?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBhQSEBUUEhQUFBUVFBQWFhcVFhUXFBQVFRUVFBUUFR QXHCYeFxkkGhUUHy8gJCcpLCwsFR4xNTAqNSYrLCkBCQoKDgwO Gg8PGCkcHBwpLCwpLCksLCkpLCwpLCksLCksLCkpKSkpKSksKS kpLCksKSwpKSwsLCwpLCksLCksLP/AABEIAPIA0AMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAABBQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAQIDBQYABwj/xABBEAABAwEFBQUFBgMHBQAAAAABAAIRAwQFITFBBhJRYXETIo GRoTKxwdHwBxQjQlLhYnLxFTNDU3OCkqKys8LS/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEDAgQF/8QAJhEBAQACAgIBBAIDAQAAAAAAAAECEQMhEjFBBCIyUWGBI5H wE//aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8ApnsUcIp4TA1TUMbTT2BOanwgHU2IykEG1 ynpVEzGzgha7VIHqN5QANUwoAURWahikQmm9E0yhbNQc8wxpce ABJ8gtDYdkbS/8gZ/O4DzGY8kbORXSmuqLTs2Ff8Amq0x0DnfAJTsG45VZP8ApmPPeS 3D1WWKRuK0zthKv+YzyKgdsZXbkabujoPqEbh6qj3U3fhH2y5K 9MS6m6OI7w82yqlxxTIQX4KFy5pTwgkRpqB4RjyoSEAPCkYn7i QNQE7XpyZTCnQFa90KPeKe8JRSQRjXJ3apr2pnZoAhr0TSQbKa JpuhBig5MeomuxU8oAV7Vpbk2KDofaJE4ik32iOLz+Ucs+iK2d 2dxFWpgc2g/l4GP1cOHu0VS8mUhgQOZzJ6nVYyybmO0tmsLKTQ1rW026NaIJ6 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http://www.philenews.com/data/2012/11/14/2012_11_14_08_23_27__4b5079e273df4fb0aa4154409c4b6 2b2.jpg


http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/joseph-stalin.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SZjgXbIy7f4/TzB1v5x4gsI/AAAAAAAAW3A/qJHJdQScAzs/s1600/leon-trotsky_7182_1.jpg


http://neoskosmos.com/news/sites/default/files/2011/December/Vladimir-Putin_4.jpg


http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/cebdceb9cebaceafcf84ceb1cf87cf81cebfcf85cf83cf84cf 83cf8ecf86.jpg?w=220


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KCuHoU9QBUU/SrxP3gvLAHI/AAAAAAAAXJM/IvkaNN1Freo/s400/L_BREZHNEV_.jpg

Can you tell us which one of the above IE look like?

Templar
14-11-12, 22:20
Whilst all those skulls look like Kurdish skulls
I keep telling you this, Indo-Europeans didn't have long skulls. Wherever they went, they left people with broader skills. For example I once read an article saying that light-haired Greeks were more likely to have wide faces than dark-haired Greeks. The only place that has a large concentration of thin-faced light-haired Indo-Europeans is Scandinavia. That is the EXCEPTION not the rule. But the popularization of the term "Nordic" has made this false belief so common. Please just look at the evidence, the haplogroups, you aren't going to lose a part of you just because most Kurds have skulls that are generally different from Indo-Europeans. You will still have the light phenotype.

Templar
14-11-12, 22:24
A question, Blond straight hairs are they IE like?

Yes, they are.


I think they are red hair and from Anatolian origin, Tocharians were Anatolian tribe not not Eurasian steppe people,
and surely non big cheeks and round head, but the opposite

They were sampled to test their haplogroups, and I think it said that most if not all of them were R1a (not R1b which spread from Anatolia)

Templar
14-11-12, 22:39
Which looks like IE?
There is no such thing as a pure IE anymore, but Putin looks pretty close, except for maybe his nose.
And why did u post Stalin? He is Georgian.

Yetos
14-11-12, 22:39
I keep telling you this, Indo-Europeans didn't have long skulls. Wherever they went, they left people with broader skills. For example I once read an article saying that light-haired Greeks were more likely to have wide faces than dark-haired Greeks. The only place that has a large concentration of thin-faced light-haired Indo-Europeans is Scandinavia. That is the EXCEPTION not the rule. But the popularization of the term "Nordic" has made this false belief so common. Please just look at the evidence, the haplogroups, you aren't going to lose a part of you just because most Kurds have skulls that are generally different from Indo-Europeans. You will still have the light phenotype.

Really?
Pericles had a skull so big that wear a helmet to cover it,

I think connecting alpine race with IE is wrong, cause alpine race existed before IE,
if ancient Greeks had wide faces why they wear long and narrow helmets?

I gave photos of the one you call as motherland of IE, which one is closest to IE?

Templar
14-11-12, 22:40
Gorbachev is also pretty IE-looking

Yetos
14-11-12, 22:41
Yes, they are.



They were sampled to test their haplogroups, and I think it said that most if not all of them were R1a (not R1b which spread from Anatolia)

Tocharian language and people went from Anatolia to tarim basin,
Yes they were R1a , But not Baltic, that is the mistake that many Slavs do, they are connecting all R1a with Slavic and alpine race, believing that all R1a is trade mark of Baltic and Slavs.

Templar
14-11-12, 22:41
I think connecting alpine race with IE is wrong, cause alpine race existed before IE,
if ancient Greeks had wide faces why they wear long and narrow helmets?
I never said Greeks had wide faces. Some did, but most didn't.


I gave photos of the one you call as motherland of IE, which one is closest to IE?

Central Asia was the motherland, not Russia...but close enough for you I guess

Templar
14-11-12, 22:43
Yes they were R1a , But not Baltic, that is the mistake that Slavs do, they are connecting all R1a with Slavic and alpine race,

I agree with most of Eupedia when it comes to Indoeuropeans. If you don't, you are the outlier. They had wide faces, short bodies, and light features.

Yetos
14-11-12, 22:44
I think that Puttin if had curly hair and a little bump at the head is a good sample of IE.

Templar
14-11-12, 22:47
I think that Puttin if had curly hair and a little bump at the head is a good sample of IE.
Why would he need a bump and curly hair? IE developed in a cold environment, where long skulls and bodies are a liability. You a need small stocky body (like an Eskimo) to retain as much heat as possible. And curly hair is usually present in hot/warm places not cold ones.

Yetos
14-11-12, 22:53
Tarim basin mummies

http://www.themanyfacesofspaces.com/The_Taklimakan_Mummies_2.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcST7_Uc0fYNb_IFbg3lX5ZBHeKO5Z0r1 vwHc-rnSfNcSQQGYW19


Mycenean Mask

http://www.molon.de/galleries/Greece/Athens/Mycenae/images01/05%20Golden%20Mask%20of%20Agamemnon.jpg

Thracian Gold Mask

http://images.ookaboo.com/photo/s/Zlatnamaska_s.jpg


a common to all υψωμενα ζυγωματικα

Towering zygomatic bones,
if by big cheeks you mean big Zygomatic bones then Yes, I agree

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 22:54
I keep telling you this, Indo-Europeans didn't have long skulls. Wherever they went, they left people with broader skills. For example I once read an article saying that light-haired Greeks were more likely to have wide faces than dark-haired Greeks. The only place that has a large concentration of thin-faced light-haired Indo-Europeans is Scandinavia. That is the EXCEPTION not the rule. But the popularization of the term "Nordic" has made this false belief so common. Please just look at the evidence, the haplogroups, you aren't going to lose a part of you just because most Kurds have skulls that are generally different from Indo-Europeans. You will still have the light phenotype.

But I just showed you the reconstructions that showed they were long skulled. Show me that they were brachephalic then. I don't care about light hair or Nordic, I even stated proto indo-Iranians were just depigmented Iranids.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 22:55
Tarim basin mummies

http://www.themanyfacesofspaces.com/The_Taklimakan_Mummies_2.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcST7_Uc0fYNb_IFbg3lX5ZBHeKO5Z0r1 vwHc-rnSfNcSQQGYW19


Mycenean Mask

http://www.molon.de/galleries/Greece/Athens/Mycenae/images01/05%20Golden%20Mask%20of%20Agamemnon.jpg

Thracian Gold Mask

http://images.ookaboo.com/photo/s/Zlatnamaska_s.jpg


a common to all υψωμενα ζυγωματικα

Towering zygomatic bones,
if by big cheeks you mean big Zygomatic bones then Yes, I agree

Those look long skulled, like the ones from andronovo.

Templar
14-11-12, 23:01
if by big cheeks you mean big Zygomatic bones then Yes, I agree
I am happy that we agree.

Templar
14-11-12, 23:02
But I just showed you the reconstructions that showed they were long skulled.
Yes and I showed u a link that showed that the skull dimensions were within the Polish norm. Poles are usually considered short-skulled, so clearly then the Androvovo skulls were short-skulled as well.

Yetos
14-11-12, 23:13
Why would he need a bump and curly hair? IE developed in a cold environment, where long skulls and bodies are a liability. You a need small stocky body (like an Eskimo) to retain as much heat as possible. And curly hair is usually present in hot/warm places not cold ones.

Cause IE went to North Europe, their enviroment was not Baltic. but either minor Asia, either Caucasus

about curly hair a good example what i mean is in Irish population plenty, but also everywhere in Europe,
I do not mean grape like curly, but that that is straight at the root and slowly makes circles at the end, the more long, the bigger the circle,

http://data.whicdn.com/images/9331638/RedHairGreenEyes_large.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1455/22652784.jpg


Take a look the hair i name curly, they had nothing to do with the straight hair
which I think existed in Europe before like bellow,

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k5gA5JAyuAE/UJtXW4Ub4BI/AAAAAAAAHeY/ONX_fVqvRhA/s1600/2012-11-07+223124_3.jpg

Templar
14-11-12, 23:16
Cause IE went to North Europe, their enviroment was no Baltic. but either minor Asia, either Caucasus

I see what you mean, but keep in mind that there two main different kinds of Indo-Europeans, one kind went through Anatolia and mixed with the natives on the way, and the other went through the Ukrainian steppes. So ofcourse they (the r1b ones) would have curly hair, and we can see that mostr1b populations do have curly hair. But r1a didn't have curly hair, and neither did the r1b ones before going through anatolia.

MOESAN
14-11-12, 23:27
Poutin has a mix look that shows some evident 'est-baltic' element (flaxen blond and staight hair) - he is sub-brachycephalic (apparently) and shows also some north-east forest people where play a "feotalized alpinelike" element (maybe without any tie to true western 'alpine', or if so, by the females mediated, see Lapps or Saami) and a very very slight mongoloid' element, the two of them found as elements among Saami and other norh-eastern population of Russia, Karelia, where the mongoloid admixture is not too recent (4000/5000 years ago???) -
as said yet by other forumers here, there is nothing as an 'indo-european phenotype' (at least at protohistoric times)- we can only said that the crossings which was common among steppic people supposed to be I-E encompassed a majority of tall dolichocephals and a minority of brachycephals, where the tall 'dinaroid' ones seam having been the strongest (I see this 'dinaric' element as being come from the eastern carpathians at bronze time, perhaps already before) - and to complicate the game, among the dolichocephalics was some 'nordics', (high faced, not brutal) some 'brünnoids' or 'capelloids' high faced, brutal shape), and even some 'cro-magnoids' with elongated skulls BUT BROAD faces (not brutal but robust) - so the correlation crania-face has to be verified... 'iranid' ('indo-afghan' for you?) and 'nordic' have not at all the same shapes, even if tall and dolichocephalic - 'iranid' goes closer to 'capelloid' I think -

don't believe environment is yet playing a quick role upon human beings: yet, 'cromagnon' paradigm had not the morphology for cold climates, very less than 'neanderthal' - some dozens of generations are not sufficient to change phenotypes; because human genotype is complicated adn internally interactive - don't forget human beings wore clothes a long time ago... all the tales about dates of depigmentation, hairs form and things like that have to be more supported (let's compare different populations, internally and externally)

Yetos
14-11-12, 23:29
I see what you mean, but keep in mind that there two main different kinds of Indo-Europeans, one kind went through Anatolia and mixed with the natives on the way, and the other went through the Ukrainian steppes. So ofcourse they (the r1b ones) would have curly hair, and we can see that mostr1b populations do have curly hair. But r1a didn't have curly hair, and neither did the r1b ones before going through anatolia.

there is a third explanations once I discuss with macciamo, the Gedrosian,
Meaning that IE pass from Iran to Caucasus and maykop and there found arsenic bronze and spread to steppes continuing west and North,
Arsenic Bronze is a good archaiological indicator that send us back to Maykop. but Maykop was colony of Leyla teppe which is a land of Iranian R1b.

Yetos
14-11-12, 23:40
Poutin has a mix look that shows some evident 'est-baltic' element (flaxen blond and staight hair) - he is sub-brachycephalic (apparently) and shows also some north-east forest people where play a "feotalized alpinelike" element (maybe without any tie to true western 'alpine', or if so, by the females mediated, see Lapps or Saami) and a very very slight mongoloid' element, the two of them found as elements among Saami and other norh-eastern population of Russia, Karelia, where the mongoloid admixture is not too recent (4000/5000 years ago???) -
as said yet by other forumers here, there is nothing as an 'indo-european phenotype' (at least at protohistoric times)- we can only said that the crossings which was common among steppic people supposed to be I-E encompassed a majority of tall dolichocephals and a minority of brachycephals, where the tall 'dinaroid' ones seam having been the strongest (I see this 'dinaric' element as being come from the eastern carpathians at bronze time, perhaps already before) - and to complicate the game, among the dolichocephalics was some 'nordics', (high faced, not brutal) some 'brünnoids' or 'capelloids' high faced, brutal shape), and even some 'cro-magnoids' with elongated skulls BUT BROAD faces (not brutal but robust) - so the correlation crania-face has to be verified... 'iranid' ('indo-afghan' for you?) and 'nordic' have not at all the same shapes, even if tall and dolichocephalic - 'iranid' goes closer to 'capelloid' I think -

don't believe environment is yet playing a quick role upon human beings: yet, 'cromagnon' paradigm had not the morphology for cold climates, very less than 'neanderthal' - some dozens of generations are not sufficient to change phenotypes; because human genotype is complicated adn internally interactive - don't forget human beings wore clothes a long time ago... all the tales about dates of depigmentation, hairs form and things like that have to be more supported (let's compare different populations, internally and externally)

well to make a joke, if IE look like them

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAW791W74guCaZwawE6Vnu9Efq_PhIB 6iIqSf9lvpQGi7mOGQ2dmrTAKw

http://www.eurobasket2011.com/en/files/%7BF221E0DC-DB7C-42B9-BE85-46A79083ED75%7Dhuge_h.jpg

Then surely Basket should be invented 4000 years before.

Templar
14-11-12, 23:43
there is a third explanations once I discuss with macciamo, the Gedrosian,
Meaning that IE pass from Iran to Caucasus and maykop and there found arsenic bronze and spread to steppes continuing west and North,
Arsenic Bronze is a good archaiological indicator that send us back to Maykop. but Maykop was colony of Leyla teppe which is a land of Iranian R1b.

It is possible I guess. And so both r1b and r1a would have gone that way?

Templar
14-11-12, 23:44
well to make a joke, if IE look like them
Haha, yeah they were probably pretty short statured. I can't possibly imagine them being tall.

Yetos
15-11-12, 01:40
It is possible I guess. And so both r1b and r1a would have gone that way?

yes, that also explains the gedrosian component,

Yet with another discuss in the forum seems like Myceneans started to make personality in Vatin Serbia, Thracian in Cotofeni and to me Celts in Vucovar Croatia, yet the arquements were stronger over Urnfield before La-tene for Celts,

well personally the only thing I do not arque is the arsenic bronze road from maykop to Danube, that is a fact in many ways, the rest are tested theories, which sometimes combine and sometimes arque,

a good question, Greco-Aryan were spoken in minor Asia before or after Hettit?
Thracian R1b came from North or from minor Asia?
if Myceneans came from North, then why ancient Greeks name the Liligi people (mushroom = Mycenae = Liligi in summerian) that came from Lydia?
could IE be a 2 wave expand? 1 in neolithic farmers (G2 HG), 2 in Bronze age (R1)

jjmuneer123
15-11-12, 18:36
Yes and I showed u a link that showed that the skull dimensions were within the Polish norm. Poles are usually considered short-skulled, so clearly then the Androvovo skulls were short-skulled as well.

It doesn't, because if the skulls are clearly long skulled, they can't be the same as polish short skulled ones. And Poles aren't all "short-skulled", I've actually seen many Polish people with long skulls. Even so that doesn't signifny they are indo-iranian descended. Skull shape alone cannot determine if they are descended from them. I can bet you if those skulls in andronovo were tested, a Kurd would be closer to them genetially than a Pole.

Templar
15-11-12, 19:29
I can bet you if those skulls in andronovo were tested, a Kurd would be closer to them genetially than a Pole.

Actually many Indo-European graves have been tested, and they are usually R1a. They are never J1 and J2.

Goga
15-11-12, 20:12
Actually many Indo-European graves have been tested, and they are usually R1a. They are never J1 and J2.If you test Indo-European graves in Kurdistan you will find lots of J2a. So it depends where those Indo-European graves are from.

I'm 100% sure that ancient Indo-European Anatolians, Persians and the Medes were also partly J2a folks.

If you test ancient Indo-European graves in the Balkans you will find lots of hg. 'E' or hg. 'I' etc.


BTW, Kurds, but also other Iranians, Indians have much more R1a than the most Indo-European Europeans...

Goga
15-11-12, 20:24
Actually it's pretty ridiculous to claim that r1a graves belong to PROTO-Indo-Europeans.

Templar
15-11-12, 22:41
I'm 100% sure that ancient Indo-European Anatolians, Persians and the Medes were also partly J2a folks.

If you test ancient Indo-European graves in the Balkans you will find lots of hg. 'E' or hg. 'I' etc.

Well ofcourse, E and I (and also J) were in Europe before the Indo-European invasions. And likewise J was in the Middle-East before the invasions.

Goga
15-11-12, 23:22
Well ofcourse, E and I (and also J) were in Europe before the Indo-European invasions. And likewise J was in the Middle-East before the invasions.
Exactly, and R1a was in Central Asia even thousands years before proto-Indo-European language was born. Do you see it now?

zanipolo
16-11-12, 01:01
Well ofcourse, E and I (and also J) were in Europe before the Indo-European invasions. And likewise J was in the Middle-East before the invasions.

G, T, L and Q where in europe before I and E
most where hunter gathers but G always became farmers

sparkey
16-11-12, 01:42
G, T, L and Q where in europe before I and E
most where hunter gathers but G always became farmers

How did you come up with that?

Templar
16-11-12, 02:01
Exactly, and R1a was in Central Asia even thousands years before proto-Indo-European language was born. Do you see it now?

You are saying that Indo-European languages formed when R1a nomads (from Central Asia) mixed with certain people in West Asia, and then they migrated into Europe?

Templar
16-11-12, 02:05
G, T, L and Q where in europe before I and E
most where hunter gathers but G always became farmers

G,T,L, and Q are rare in Europe. Why are you even mentioning them? We already concluded that haplogroup I and maybe some subclades of E, are the oldest ones in Europe. Then came J and more E, during the neolithic revolution. And then eventually came r1b and r1a, during the Indo-European conquests.

Yetos
16-11-12, 02:44
How did you come up with that?

no matter my knowlwdge are limited I also share that,

G2 is connected with early neolithic agricultural expand

and since you probably know, when J2 starts to enter Europe?

that answer is key to a second boom agricultural wave, which can be another solution to IE language.

Yetos
16-11-12, 03:17
Templar

if R1b = IE then why Basques do not speak IE
if R1a =IE then why Caucasus R1a speak other non IE languages and Turkic population share big R1a
Tocharians yes they were R1a but they went to steppes from minor Asia,

they do not deny that R1b or R1a enter Europe at bronze age simply they ask how sure you are that they speak IE? and not Danae-Turkic? or what ever? and learn IE in Europe of G2a and I for example?
how sure you are that Maykop learn IE to the European steppe peope? Maykop is simmilar to Layla teppe which is not steppe culture but is south of caucas near Iran next to Kurdistan and Armenia. so could R1b learn IE from there and then expand and pass to European steppe,
for example look at the IE areas of non hunters-gatherers, from spain to India is full of J2, could IE be an agriculture 2nd wave after G2 at copper era? in that case yes R1b and R1a were steppe people but not IE speakers, yes they expand with the arsenic bronze and kurgans but learn them from south of Caucas areas before pass to maykop.

the only thing that connected IE with steppe was the common words with some Northern Languages like Finno-ugric (maybe I am wrong to that and is Caucasian) but on the other hand we have also connection with Akkadian which was not a steppe civilization.

I mean how certain you are that R1b spread IE, and not learn it from the previous?

Templar
16-11-12, 13:47
if R1b = IE then why Basques do not speak IE

There is already a thread explaining that.


Turkic population share big R1a

That is pretty obvious. The IE homeland was central Asia, but today Central Asia is mostly Turkic; the two people mixed there.


I mean how certain you are that R1b spread IE, and not learn it from the previous?

Because R1a most likely spread from the East to West, with little to no interaction with West Asian people. If IE originated in the Middle/Near-East then this shouldn't be the case.

jjmuneer123
16-11-12, 17:50
Actually many Indo-European graves have been tested, and they are usually R1a. They are never J1 and J2.

Kurds aren't J1 pred, and even so I'm talking about autosmal DNA, which as I said is what counts. And anyway they have already been tested, they show up as R1a-z93, which is Indo-Iranian marker. Autosmally they are the closest to modern day North eastern Iranic popuations and Kurds.

Just look at the indo-Iranian component as "persian" in 'DNA tribes':
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/3473/75590976.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4255/23442613.jpg

Templar
16-11-12, 21:11
persian

That doesn't equal Indo-European. Indo-Europeans were adapted to the cold environment of Central Asia. They had short, stocky bodies, with short limbs, and with round heads. Google "Allen's Rule" for an explanation as to why.

Persians were a mix of these migrants with the native West Asian population (who you call "Iranids").

Yetos
17-11-12, 00:34
That doesn't equal Indo-European. Indo-Europeans were adapted to the cold environment of Central Asia. They had short, stocky bodies, with short limbs, and with round heads. Google "Allen's Rule" for an explanation as to why.

Persians were a mix of these migrants with the native West Asian population (who you call "Iranids").

Sory but in one hand we have mighty strong, huge body IE in Europe,
in another hand we have small body IE,
in 1 foot :grin: we have round heads ( i don't see that in tocharian mummies neither in mycenean and Thracian masks)
on the other foot tocharian were R1a but anatolian not steppe people,

yes we know R1b pass the caucasus North but return to teach Ie to R1b south of caucas (Hettits)?

Yes G2a3 was IE but existed at copper age much before entrance of R1a to west,

to many on the other side, don't you think?

good questions to answer,

Maykop spoke IE?
If Yes could IE be a language from Leyla teppe?

question2
How sure you are that I and J with G2a were not the IE farmers booming and R1b learn IE at Maykop and Yamnaa? and become a 'warrior rulers class'?

Goga
17-11-12, 01:23
You are saying that Indo-European languages formed when R1a nomads (from Central Asia) mixed with certain people in West Asia, and then they migrated into Europe?
Uncivilized, backward and barbaric hg. R1a hunter-gatherers in northeast Europe were 'civilised' (Indo-Europised) either by hg. I2a folks from the Balkans or by hg. J2a folks from the Caucasus (like Maykop culture).

Templar
17-11-12, 01:35
Uncivilized, backward and barbaric haplogroup R1a hunter-gatherers were 'civilised'

But they had horses, which gave them a huge edge in warfare. Don't you think it was more likely that THEY were the ones who Indo-europised the others? You don't need culture to conquer, just the right tools.

Templar
17-11-12, 01:39
in 1 foot :grin: we have round heads ( i don't see that in tocharian mummies neither in mycenean and Thracian masks)
Relatively round. You yourself admitted that they had pronounced/wide cheeks. Keep in mind that the Tocharian mummies are dried up dead bodies, their faces look thinner than they would in real life. If you were add some muscle tissue and fat deposits, they would look very East European or Celtic. Both Celts and Slavs are known to have roundish races with big cheeks, yet they both also have the highest concentrations of r1/r1b. And the only ones in Europe who don't have these features, are the ones with high haplogroup I (Germanic people, and people in the Dinaric mountains), haplogroup J,E, (Southern Europeans). There seems to be a very clear pattern here.

Goga
17-11-12, 01:48
But they had horses, which gave them a huge edge in warfare. Don't you think it was more likely that THEY were the ones who Indo-europised the others? You don't need culture to conquer, just the right tools.
Everything is possible, I don't have a time machine to look in the past. But according to me it was not really the case. Horses were domesticated in the Middle East thousands years earlier.

People in the steppes were NEVER more advanced than people in West Asia, well maybe the last 250 years and that's because Islam destroyed pretty much everything in the Middle East.

I believe that horses in the steppes only played an important role in Iranic tribes and Turco-Mongolian (like Zjengis Khan) campaigns from the east into Eastern Europe. But that happened thousands and thousands years after what we’re talking about.

Templar
17-11-12, 02:04
People in the steppes were NEVER more advanced than people in West Asia

I never said that haha. The domestication of horses doesn't necessarily have to be a technological feat.


I believe that horses in the steppes only played a important role in Iranic tribes and Turco-Mongolian (like zjengis khan) campaigns from the east into Eastern Europe. But that happened thousands and thousands years after what we’re talking about.

There is alot of evidence that Indo-Europeans were the first ones to use horses, and that they transmitted the technology to both West Asia and East Asia.

Templar
17-11-12, 02:19
Horses were first domesticated in Northern Kazakhstan
http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/episode/2009/03/07/horsey-aeology-binary-black-holes-tracking-red-tides-fish-re-evolution-walk-like-a-man-fact-or-ficti/

Yetos
17-11-12, 10:24
But they had horses, which gave them a huge edge in warfare. Don't you think it was more likely that THEY were the ones who Indo-europised the others? You don't need culture to conquer, just the right tools.

Yes but arsenic bronze was not invented in Asian steppe.
you see they also have broze which invented in Maykop.
it is not the horse that makes the diffrence but the charriot,
in Troyan war we see Thracian Myceneans Troyan etc use charriots not horse riding.

Yetos
17-11-12, 10:28
Nope I said they Zygomatic bones high in the face,
they had towering zygomatic bones,
not wide and round faces, neither fat cheeks,

Yetos
17-11-12, 10:40
Everything is possible, I don't have a time machine to look in the past. But according to me it was not really the case. Horses were domesticated in the Middle East thousands years earlier.

People in the steppes were NEVER more advanced than people in West Asia, well maybe the last 250 years and that's because Islam destroyed pretty much everything in the Middle East.

I believe that horses in the steppes only played an important role in Iranic tribes and Turco-Mongolian (like Zjengis Khan) campaigns from the east into Eastern Europe. But that happened thousands and thousands years after what we’re talking about.

advanced civilization has nothing to do, Akkadeians Egyptians were advanced before but they were not IE speakers ( or they are related?)

jjmuneer123
17-11-12, 13:08
That doesn't equal Indo-European. Indo-Europeans were adapted to the cold environment of Central Asia. They had short, stocky bodies, with short limbs, and with round heads. Google "Allen's Rule" for an explanation as to why.

Persians were a mix of these migrants with the native West Asian population (who you call "Iranids").

I never stated Persian though, I stated indo-iranian. Proto-Indo Iranians were from central Asia. By the way central asia isn't cold, it's gets really hot in the summer.

Templar
17-11-12, 13:24
By the way central asia isn't cold, it's gets really hot in the summer.

The planet was much colder when the Indo-Europeans were evolving and adapting to their envionment.

Templar
17-11-12, 13:36
Nope I said they Zygomatic bones high in the face,
they had towering zygomatic bones,
not wide and round faces, neither fat cheeks,
This is from "A Handbook of Anatomy for Art Students":
"By placing a finger on the zygomatic arch the presence of the temporalfossa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossa_(anatomy)) (with its large temporal muscle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_muscle) and its fibres passing below the Zygomatic arches) can be discerned by alternate opening and closing of the mouth. It is also noted that the prominence of cheek bones are identified with the races (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)) (whether Mongolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia), Tartar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars) orAustralian aborigines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_aborigines) who have broad features)"

All the races listed have roundish-looking faces and all have prominent Zygomatic bones. It is obvious why, the pronounced cheeks make the width of the face seem much higher than it is (especially if the person has large fat deposits or muscle tissue). I think the same would apply to Indo-Europeans, why should they be the only exception?

Yetos
17-11-12, 15:44
This is from "A Handbook of Anatomy for Art Students":
"By placing a finger on the zygomatic arch the presence of the temporalfossa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossa_%28anatomy%29) (with its large temporal muscle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_muscle) and its fibres passing below the Zygomatic arches) can be discerned by alternate opening and closing of the mouth. It is also noted that the prominence of cheek bones are identified with the races (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28human_classification%29) (whether Mongolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia), Tartar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars) orAustralian aborigines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_aborigines) who have broad features)"

All the races listed have roundish-looking faces and all have prominent Zygomatic bones. It is obvious why, the pronounced cheeks make the width of the face seem much higher than it is (especially if the person has large fat deposits or muscle tissue). I think the same would apply to Indo-Europeans, why should they be the only exception?



http://laliga-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/cristiano-ronaldo-0011.jpg

wonder?
has he towering Zygomatic bones?
has he big cheeks?
has he round face?


http://berliner-herold.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dr.helmut-kohl-der-kanzler-der-deutschen-einheit.jpg

he has round face,
he has big cheeks
has he towering zygomatic bones?

what about him?
http://www.jardindegente.com.ar/imagenes/nuevas/maradona.jpg
short, round wide face etc,


http://photos.travellerspoint.com/137320/Inuit.jpg
perfect round wide face, perfect big cheeks, mainly short etc, is it a perfect example of IE?

or this
http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/Greece2009/630mycenaeGoldMaskWowSm.jpg

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesloubeaut.JPG

the possible face of a female tocharian mummy,
DOES IT LOOK SO BALTIC TO YOU?
DOES IT LOOK SO NORTHERN EUROPEAN?

she could easily pass for Romanian or Afganistan lady
look carefully the lips.


https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbjHmja2AaJL2q-po8Rh6V1-wDc17rj-vZmRC2nHC4gu1Pa8w4
Turn him 90 degrees

he could easily pass for a goat breeder in balkans

Knovas
17-11-12, 16:34
There are signals pointing that R1b was present in the Neolithic, at least, since the late Neolithic according to the latest findings. So the link with IE is not that clear, it's likely in my opinion that when IE languages arrived R1b was already extended. Concerning the Basques, all evidence shows they preserved their language fairly well after R1b settled there so, again, considering they don't show significant connections with West Asia and other IE related territories in both admixture experiments and PCA plots, it's probably because R1b had actually nothing to do with IE at first, and rather was part of the Neolithic dispersals into Europe, being succesful as we can see nowadays. ¿Do the Basques speak R1b language? I don't think so. I think their language predates even this event, but maybe both languages were akin to each other in some way...who knows, more research is required.

jjmuneer123
17-11-12, 16:56
5769Actually this lady is believed to be an indo-Iranian, well either Tohcarian or Aryan. Anyway I think she resembles this Kurdish lady from my tribe:
5770

Templar
17-11-12, 17:10
he has round face,
he has big cheeks
has he towering zygomatic bones?


He is overweight. And the Asian child u showed is too young to see his/her facial bones. You picked and chose examples which would serve your purpose.

Yetos
17-11-12, 17:12
5769Actually this lady is believed to be an indo-Iranian, well either Tohcarian or Aryan. Anyway I think she resembles this Kurdish lady from my tribe:
5770


why not a Greek girl? a balkan girl? an Italian one?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ekuJhpV08Yg/S4yqLB0paGI/AAAAAAAAAU4/xSLy-Qy7N4U/s200/xronopoyloy.jpg 5769

i think if you compare with the idol is like looking in the mirror

Yetos
17-11-12, 17:21
He is overweight. And the Asian child u showed is too young to see his/her facial bones. You picked and chose examples which would serve your purpose.

No towering zygomatic bones does not mean round face and big cheeks.

but more a rombic face or an upside down egg

the photo of the liitle asian girl is a little american girl, an Inuit,
Inuits have the most big cheeks and the most round face as a sum.

as you see hunters-gatherers have big cheeks and round face, IE were after Neolithic agricultural boom, milleniums after Summerians so alpine race (anthropometric race) should exist in Europe when IE came, and continue to exist via female population most than patriarchcal which was IE incomers

Goga
17-11-12, 17:39
Horses were first domesticated in Northern Kazakhstan
http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/episode/2009/03/07/horsey-aeology-binary-black-holes-tracking-red-tides-fish-re-evolution-walk-like-a-man-fact-or-ficti/
Not really

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14658678

"Saudi officials say archaeologists have begun excavating a site that suggests horses were domesticated 9,000 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula."

Goga
17-11-12, 17:48
advanced civilization has nothing to do, Akkadeians Egyptians were advanced before but they were not IE speakers ( or they are related?)
I believe that Semitic tribes in southwest of the Middle East were always influened by folks from north, from Anatolia /Zagros mountains.

Taranis
17-11-12, 17:50
Not really

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14658678

"Saudi officials say archaeologists have begun excavating a site that suggests horses were domesticated 9,000 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula."

Goga, the question where exactly the horse was first domesticated is only of secondary significance. You should read the articles (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27713-Anatolia-is-the-source-of-Indo-European-languages&p=398912&viewfull=1#post398912) to which I posted a link here, in a thread which you actually started a while back.

Yetos
17-11-12, 17:59
I believe that Semitic tribes in southwest of the Middle East were always influened by folks from north, from Anatolia /Zagros mountains.

My point was that someone can conquer or put his rulles even langaue,
Greeks speak IE but they did not learn it from Egypteians who were more civilised before, neither from Akkadeians.
same way IE could be Steppe people while civilazation of middle East that time could be infront,
It has nothing to do who was more civiliazied or techically advanced,

Templar
17-11-12, 18:43
IE were after Neolithic agricultural boom, milleniums after Summerians so alpine race (anthropometric race) should exist in Europe when IE came, and continue to exist via female population most than patriarchcal which was IE incomers

Well since we don't know for sure, it is possible. But all the evidence suggests that the original r1a and r1b people had roundish faces and short bodies. People who believe that Indo-Europeans looked "Nordic", are delusional. It is just old 19th and early 20th century imperialist-fueled propaganda. If Indo-Europeans were a mix that was created in West Asia, then they definitely didn't look "Nordic".

Templar
17-11-12, 18:50
"Saudi officials say archaeologists have begun excavating a site that suggests horses were domesticated9,000 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula."
We'll have to wait and see if it is credible. It could also have been an isolated incident. The usage of horses spread with the Indo-European conquests and not 9000 years ago. Egyptians adopted the usage of Chariots for example after having faced the Hyksos.

Yetos
17-11-12, 22:31
the fact is that today i had a discuss about the Varna necropolis and the new city archaiologists found,
that is the land where Thracians settled and develop

I am waiting results to be done, and excavation to finish,

I heard they found gold, can you imagine templar if arsenic bronze is to be found there, or R1b or R1a Hg?
on the other hand if another not excepted Hg?

Templar
17-11-12, 22:40
I am waiting results to be done, and excavation to finish,

It will probably take a while though. People spend too much money on fulfilling worthless materialistic items, and not enough on research and archaeological organizations. You would think that people would be more enlightened in the 21st century.


I heard they found gold, can you imagine templar if arsenic bronze is to be found there, or R1b or R1a Hg?
on the other hand if another not excepted Hg?

It could also be hgs from other people that they conquered and enslaved.

MOESAN
17-11-12, 23:05
No towering zygomatic bones does not mean round face and big cheeks.

but more a rombic face or an upside down egg

the photo of the liitle asian girl is a little american girl, an Inuit,
Inuits have the most big cheeks and the most round face as a sum.

as you see hunters-gatherers have big cheeks and round face, IE were after Neolithic agricultural boom, milleniums after Summerians so alpine race (anthropometric race) should exist in Europe when IE came, and continue to exist via female population most than patriarchcal which was IE incomers

I thought I 'd had left (not "leaved" as I wrote some day!) the phenotypical aspect of things but I'm obliged to say something sometime:
there was more than a hunter-gatherer type: post-paleolithic descendants of 'cro-magnon' (plus a partly negroid version 'grimaldi', perhaps a crossing, and mesolithic as 'brünn', 'combe-capelle', 'chancelade' and their crossings (my bet) giving birth to 'teviecoid' mean, 'mugemoid' mean:
the 'cro-magnon' stock has low and broad faces, the bizygomatics were broad, but in accord with a broad bigonials (jaw), the brachycephalized 'borreby', whatever its true filiation, presents the same saqure face -
BUT the other phylum, 'brünn', 'combe-capelle', 'chancelade' has a high and narrow gace, solid too but where bigozygomatics are very broader than bigonials: very contrasting faces, without speak about other clear differences of skeletons: so if we cannot speak about a KNOWN I-E PHENOTYPE AND GENETIC, we cannot to much speak about an unique "hunter-gatherer" type!
as said by someone, broad byzygomatics are not linked by force to cheeky visage (flesh and diet influence), and not linked at all to broad jaws!

MOESAN
17-11-12, 23:07
a little out of topic, I add you can look at some Malysian populations, with very broad bizygomatics and small jaws that give them a triangular face

jjmuneer123
18-11-12, 11:57
why not a Greek girl? a balkan girl? an Italian one?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ekuJhpV08Yg/S4yqLB0paGI/AAAAAAAAAU4/xSLy-Qy7N4U/s200/xronopoyloy.jpg 5769

i think if you compare with the idol is like looking in the mirror

The skull is either an indo-Iranian skull or Tocharian one, plus this lady looks Irano-Nordoid. Hardly a type you find in the balkans. Just look at her convex nose, long face, slightly weaker jawline, dolicephalic.(long skulled)

Templar
18-11-12, 14:15
Hardly a type you find in the balkans. Just look at her convex nose, long face, slightly weaker jawline, dolicephalic

Long faces are very common in the Balkans, just look up the definition of "Dinaric" (since you are into those terms). Convex noses are also very common. And how do you know if she is dolicephalic? The back of her head isn't even shown.

MOESAN
19-11-12, 18:24
at proto-historic times, the steppes and Siberia saw the crossing of high statured (not so stocky as said by someones!) dolichocephalic humans with BROAD SQUARE faces, with high or high enough statured dolichocephalic (too) humans with HIGH NARROWER faces! the 2 were classified 'europoid'
so yet, among THE or ONE of the populations where I-E prospered, there was 2 sorts of faces, well contrasted!

Templar
19-11-12, 20:04
at proto-historic times, the steppes and Siberia saw the crossing of high statured (not so stocky as said by someones!) dolichocephalic humans with BROAD SQUARE faces, with high or high enough statured dolichocephalic (too) humans with HIGH NARROWER faces! the 2 were classified 'europoid'
so yet, among THE or ONE of the populations where I-E prospered, there was 2 sorts of faces, well contrasted!

Natural selection would have eliminated all/most tall individuals, and encouraged the survival of stocky people with "compressed" features. A small nose would have prevented frost bite for example. Allan's rule is evident in all species, including humans.