When did baltic and slavic split ?

Nobody really knows, the poor champs didn't leave any written records. :)

If Baltic language is a combination of proto-slavic mixed (or vice versa) with local substratum (different local Baltic language) than language can evolve much faster, and split might have happened much later, even around year 0.

If Baltic and Slavic evolved from common Balto-Slavic language, and they slowly drifted away without much contact, and didn't mix with any other locals, then it would take much longer to differentiate to current forms. In this case the split might have happened around 2,000 BCE. Perhaps some foundations were laid during Corded Ware expansion.

But in real life it is hard for a tribe or language to be secluded for so long, 4k years, therefore I would compromise the date of the split at around 1,000 BC.
 
baltic seems to be quite a primtive language, with many proto indo european features. so i think that slavic might is just a derived form with it. also regions which are slavic today, were once baltic. they got assimilated by slavs or germans (original prussians).
also heard that once slavs and balts were about of the same numbers, balts even lived around Moscow, while the slavs expanded and assimilated them, the balts rather stayed backwards and pagan, and today are reduced to lithuania and latvia.
 
First off, LeBrok is right: we don't know for certain because we have no written sources. :) I wouldn't pinpoint to a specific date, but in my opinion Balto-Slavic did have linguistic unity until (at least?) well into the bronze age, perhaps even into the early iron age. There's a common (uniquely Balto-Slavic) metallurgical vocabulary for words like 'tin' and 'iron', which is also subject to respective Baltic and Slavic sound laws (such as merger of PIE *a and *o which occured independently in Baltic and Slavic, as it was realized differently, or the palatalizations in Slavic).
 
There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.
 
From Byzantines we know that slavic was the language of Great Moravia, and not Baltic area language,
that make some connect Slavic with Wends,
Other connect them with Sclavini,

from Historical facts we know that only a scytho-sarmatian entrance in central Europe could bring Slavic to south of Danube,
and concerning that Scythians had already enter Thrace from ancient times I believe that scytho-sarmatian difference is the same with Balto-slavic,
yet we know also that some Avar Turkic Ogur Finno_uralic population enter also, and that modern forms are based in the gathering of Cyrill and Method who created an official stability form of Great Moravia Slavic dialect.
I mean that Slavic Lingua Franca is the dialect of Great Moravia and in that basis older scytho-sarmatians re-arrange and follow their own paths.

Lebrok I Think is almost as old as you say, before Herodotus, and much younger, after the Varrangian-Viking entrance in Ucraine,
I think it started as scytho-sarmatian, and ended after the Uralic and Hunic and Viking invasion in central Europe and Ucraine to a Baltic and Slavic branch. disapearing Thracian as a linguistic unity but leaving remnants in the modern Balkanic languages,

Some modern linguists in Bulgaria also try to connect Slavic as a Scytho-Thracian or a Balto-Thracian language,
but until now I doubt about that, although seems that Slavic replace Thracian from Dinaric Alps to Samara areas were Herodotus say that Thracian were spoken.
 
so you think that thracian, baltic and slavic are all closely relate ? I think this could be true, especially dacian shows resemblances to baltic languages.
 
Zeus10 said:
There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.
Click to expand...

"daughters"? Maybe - but is old church slavonic a synthetic language forged by some hysteric othodox monks upon nothing at all???
german written languages was forged upon a curious and not too logical mix or central and southern chancelleries of Germany about the XV° century, but its sources are older than this time, nevertheless, very older indeed - so slavic languages have ancient enough roots - some archeologists (I know, stones don't speak) think the lands North of the Battle Axes Cultures of the Steppes, say between them and Baltic, was yet shared between Balts and Slavs since the XIX° century BC...Slavs was supposed to have settled the lands between future E-Lausitz Culture and Dniepr Culture -
 
all that would be a bit before Scythians and Sarmatians
 
Robert22 said:
so you think that thracian, baltic and slavic are all closely relate ? I think this could be true, especially dacian shows resemblances to baltic languages.
Click to expand...

That is what i say, some modern 'push that way', although Thracian show also connection with Armenian Anatolian etc, and that is what I doubt, Scythians enter Thracian land in Romania before medieval Slavic speakers and that resemblances could be scythian and not Thracian,
 
Zeus10 said:
There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.
Click to expand...
How do you explain Polish language being Slavic then? It had no connection to OCS. Poland was basically pagan till beginnings of second millennium and went straight into hands of Catholic Church with official language being Latin. And yet people spoke Slavic since the beginning, with no records indicating otherwise.
 
Zeus10 said:
There has never been a natural split, because at least the slavic languages are all daughters of Old Church Slavonic language or differently known as Old Bulgarian. There was not any vernacular slavic language prior to OCS, which obviously was a vehicular language.
Click to expand...

You have a point that,

But when did it Heppened? at 6th cantury Ad or at 1700 AD? wich calendar we must use?
Anatoli Flamenko or Julian?

So church again strikes,
After Latin and Greek which are Clergy language, Now Slavic is clergy language,

the Truth is until a point yes,

I will make a comparison with Germanic,

Germanic were Spoken from Bastarnae to Saxons and from Visigoths up to Norge,
Germanic language is not 'made in Berlin' language, but a family of languages,
only in Deutschland how many dialects we have? and how many states?
that could give each state to have its own dialect-language,
But the reformation that started from Luther start giving a written speech, and when writen speech is done then starts a reformation and a more preservative language,
until Goete and Hanover literature, Deutsch would split more and more to dialects, but that was hold,

Same is with OCS, only stronger,
Cyril and Method gather syntax grammar and vocabulary mainly from Great Moravia, not Bulgaria, Bulgaria is the less Slavic language and population. and reconstruct, or just construct a language from a dialect that was the lighthouse of Slavic reformation and not only,
OCS is not an artificial language like Esperando, but a language spoken by some, that help reform All Slavic and para-Slavic languages to a comon quide-ruler,
I mean that later education uses Great Moravian dialect as primary ruler,
same in Germany they use Goethe as ruler, etc

understand that, A priest if speaks in another language nobody listen to him, so no work is done,
only when a priest the language of people, can have a result, that is religious book were translated,

besides one of the first religious tests in Albanian language is a liturgy, a Clergy text,
would that means that Albanian is a clergy language?

It is commonly held that Albanian must have been written at least since the 12th century as many facts would indicate.[25] A 1332 document written in Latin by a monk, variously identified as either Guillaume Adam (Archbishop of Antivari in the Principality of Serbia from 1324 to 1341), or Brocardus Monacus (Frère Brochard), testifies to the existence of written Albanian prior to the earliest records so far discovered.[26]

he "Formula e pagëzimit" (baptismal formula), which dates back to 1462 and was authored by Pal Engjëlli (or Paulus Angelus) (ca. 1417–1470), Archbishop of Durrës. Engjëlli was a close friend and counselor of Skanderbeg.[27] It was written in a pastoral letter for a synod at the Holy Trinity in Mat and read in Latin characters as follows, Unte paghesont premenit Atit et birit et spertit senit ("I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost"). It was discovered and published in 1915 by Nicolae Iorga.[28]



Watch the above, if I follow your Logic then
Albanian is a Clergy language also, created by monks
and to use your vocabulary a Vehicular language.

So by following your way of Thinking,
in post about proto-Greek you say Greek naver existed but invented by church
Latin is also a clergy language,
now Slavic is a Church language,
by what we see Albanian is also a clergy language,
the only one left are the Germanic in Europe and Fino-Ugric languages,
are they connected with church also?

which language is not a clergy language?
 
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Robert22 said:
baltic seems to be quite a primtive language, with many proto indo european features. so i think that slavic might is just a derived form with it. also regions which are slavic today, were once baltic. they got assimilated by slavs or germans (original prussians).
also heard that once slavs and balts were about of the same numbers, balts even lived around Moscow, while the slavs expanded and assimilated them, the balts rather stayed backwards and pagan, and today are reduced to lithuania and latvia.
Click to expand...
Original Prussians were actually exterminated...
 
LeBrok said:
How do you explain Polish language being Slavic then? It had no connection to OCS. Poland was basically pagan till beginnings of second millennium and went straight into hands of Catholic Church with official language being Latin. And yet people spoke Slavic since the beginning, with no records indicating otherwise.
Click to expand...

That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.
 
Zeus10 said:
That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...


Ucraine is also catholic, did that happened also in Ucraine?
Chech I think also catholic did that happened also to Them?


which language is not a clergy language?

since Greek Latin Slavic Albanian are clergy languages
 
Yetos said:
Ucraine is also catholic, did that happened also in Ucraine?
Chech I think also catholic did that happened also to Them?
Click to expand...

Yes.


which language is not a clergy language?

since Greek Latin Slavic Albanian are clergy languages
Click to expand...

Albanian is the clearest example of a historical vernacular language among all European languages. Even among the Albanian clergy, in their writings was expressed a clear ethnic identity about the people:

...fatesse doresse Arbenesce, prastu per εinima me chete......
Click to expand...

and their language

...Tve mos dijtune Stampatorete ghiuhenee Arbenesce, ndoonesse vne iemendogne,.....
Click to expand...

Therefore there is nowhere attested Albanian to be anything else but a family hearth language.
 
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Zeus10 said:
Yes.



Albanian is the clearest example of a historical vernacular language among all European languages. Even among the Albanian clergy, in their writings was expressed a clear ethnic identity about the people:



and their language



Therefore there is nowhere attested Albanian to be anything else but a family hearth language.
Click to expand...


Funny or Tragic,

latin is a clergy language, so Latin speaking Catholic rulers teach Italian Francais Spanish latin languages,
Greek is also a clergy language, Greek Orthodox priests Teach Greek to Greeks
Slavic is also a Clergy language, Slavic Rulers learn Orthodox Slavic Clergy language and Teach Catholic Polands Chechs Ucraine etc Slavic language, But !!! outside church but outside since inside Churches Latin was Spoken,
so Church and Clergy language did not manage with Rulers!!!, a mistake of church, since it manage with Greek and Latin,

But in Albania where the 3 oldest Text are words from the ceremony and Church,
NO it is not a clergy language,

Probably all the world speaks clergy languages except Albanians right Zeus?

Tell us something Zeus why you have the Avatar of a God of a clergy language?

Zeus was God of Greeks, which Learn Greek from Church of Polytheists and their primary God Zeus,
why you are using the Avatar of conspiracy Clergy religion?

You should hate Zeus cause he teach Greeks a Clergy language,

Albanian is also a Clergy language since the 3 oldest text are Church rituals,
as Greek as Latin as Slavic,
Albanian spoke another language before and learn Albanian from church,
 
Yetos said:
Funny or Tragic,

latin is a clergy language, so Latin speaking Catholic rulers teach Italian Francais Spanish latin languages,
Greek is also a clergy language, Greek Orthodox priests Teach Greek to Greeks
Slavic is also a Clergy language, Slavic Rulers learn Orthodox Slavic Clergy language and Teach Catholic Polands Chechs Ucraine etc Slavic language, But !!! outside church but outside since inside Churches Latin was Spoken,
so Church and Clergy language did not manage with Rulers!!!, a mistake of church, since it manage with Greek and Latin,

But in Albania where the 3 oldest Text are words from the ceremony and Church,
NO it is not a clergy language,

Probably all the world speaks clergy languages except Albanians right Zeus?

Tell us something Zeus why you have the Avatar of a God of a clergy language?

Zeus was God of Greeks, which Learn Greek from Church of Polytheists and their primary God Zeus,
why you are using the Avatar of conspiracy Clergy religion?

You should hate Zeus cause he teach Greeks a Clergy language,

Albanian is also a Clergy language since the 3 oldest text are Church rituals,
as Greek as Latin as Slavic,
Albanian spoke another language before and learn Albanian from church,
Click to expand...

No Yetos, unfortunately it's not. In 1635 Franciscium Blanchus, created the

Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum(Latin-Albanian Dictitionary)

to help Albanians to undestand

Isilli Libre me pelghiei, e mu duch se chiste meu chiene per ndoogna ndime
Click to expand...

the predication and all other ceremonies performed in the Latin language in the Catholic Church, which he calls:

Kiscese Romesse
Click to expand...

the Church of Rome(Roman Catholic Church)

The entire passage in Albanian:

Tue passune dite, e perdite (te dascunitee mij mbassi hina nde College cuituem me ghisc zoppe Libre chesce me ndimuem mbe gnaane ghiuhene tane, ghi po bdarete, e po bastastarξohete saa maa parete vè; e maa fort me ndimuem giξξe atɣne ghi iane ndurξenite tine ɛot e te Scintesse Kisce Cattoliche es dijne ghiuhene Latine, paa tessijet as cusc smune scerbegne si duhete, paa te maξ error, e sai, hesaapete, ɛakonete, e Ceremoniatee Scintesse Kiscese Romesse. Me ndɣ io pach mire me marre, e me ncheξɣem nghiuhet ze Letine mbe ghiuhet Tarbenesce gna Ditionaar, ghi tietre sascte vecesse gna Libre, ghi kaa ndeuetehe saa fiale, e saa emena iane, e gindene nde chete piesse Seculi
Click to expand...

So he clearly named the Latin language as the "Church Language"(of Rome ~Catholic), and with his 'testimony' from 400 hundred years ago, dropped your presumption that Albanian is a religious language.
 
Zeus10 said:
That's a very good question. My only explanation to this is that their rulers might have been originally from the Slavic Church, and this might have happened during a 'history piece' that we are missing in the Poland history. If this is true this obviously happened prior to the 'conjunction' to the Catholic Church, for a short period of time, but long enough to transmit the language to the educated people which apparently was never lost, after the theocrats of Poland joined the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...

I have another explanation, it is the simplest one. There was a common Slavic language that they all spoke before spreading around half of Europe. From Byzantine and Roman records we know that there was a Slavic expansion, right? So if they expanded, it is logical to assume that they expanded from somewhere, and from much smaller place (otherwise it defies the word "expansion"). If they came from a smaller area, why wouldn't have had a same language?
This common origin idea, can easily explain why all Slavic peoples speak Slavic language. Regardless of what church they belonged to and pagan past. Regardless of political influences, either of Holly Roman Empire, Mongol Hordes or Turkish Ottomans.
It also goes nicely together with all legends, spoken traditions, first historic written records, linguistics, etc, etc.
Everything fits.

If everything fits, with no exceptions, why isn't it the truth?
 
Zeus10 said:
No Yetos, unfortunately it's not. In 1635 Franciscium Blanchus, created the

Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum(Latin-Albanian Dictitionary)

to help Albanians to undestand



the predication and all other ceremonies performed in the Latin language in the Catholic Church, which he calls:



the Church of Rome(Roman Catholic Church)

The entire passage in Albanian:



So he clearly named the Latin language as the "Church Language"(of Rome ~Catholic), and with his 'testimony' from 400 hundred years ago, dropped your presumption that Albanian is a religious language.
Click to expand...

come on Zeus, by a signal post and a stone in Rome senate you claim that Greek is a clergy language,
avoiding the existance in every life things like cups,
and in case of Albania where 3 oldest texts are Clergy, and in wrong Alphabet like Early Greek it is obvious,
First Church used Latin which people know, and then teach Albanian and gave Albanian Alphabet,
Like with Latin,
Like with Slavic,
Like with Greek
same with Albania, a Clergy language,
 
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