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zanipolo
13-12-12, 07:37
recent tests
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

it seems that the I* HG marker (pre-roman )was the marker that the Illyrians took to Italy in the charts attached, the adriatic coast named people are - udine, piceni, sanniti, grecani salento, lucera and messapi

The Illyrian-ligurian wars did happen in the bronzeage........I wonder if the sardinians got some of these markers.

What does that do for KN .....it does make T.Robb justified....hmm

also, no R1a1 or N3 in ancient pre-roman times

Funny how etruscan was omitted in this test.....maybe because it was done before


BTW - Latini = romans from lazio region
Ladini = Rhaetian people inside Italy on the alps ( half in veneto, half in friuli )

Sile
09-08-13, 11:37
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4214/9uxf.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/9uxf.png/)



What Italians get taught of their lands in the early iron age - note the flooded PO valley and the influence of the ligurians.

Toscano
15-08-13, 09:27
Etruscan never left much genetic markers becuse they where few in population..

Romans and most italic people where prob pretty much the same as today, More celtic in north and greek in south!

Angela
15-08-13, 17:01
Etruscan never left much genetic markers becuse they where few in population..

Romans and most italic people where prob pretty much the same as today, More celtic in north and greek in south!

I'm not sure that we *know* what the Etruscans left in the Italian gene pool. We have no autosomal analysis for them, and no y dna analysis, and the mt dna studies have been botched as far as I'm concerned. The same group that started out saying that the mt dna proved that the Etruscans were a late (1st millennium B.C.) elite or folk movement from Anatolia then reversed itself when it realized that the mt dna markers in question were so old that they could just as well have come from Anatolia during the Neolithic. Even that conclusion is problematic, because they tested so little of the mt dna.

Somebody needs to fund a well-organized and complete analysis getting as fine grained with subclades as possible.

I just hope it isn't that Brisighelli, Alvarez group. What a mess that study was...

Just my two cents.:smile:

Angela
15-08-13, 17:10
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4214/9uxf.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/9uxf.png/)



What Italians get taught of their lands in the early iron age - note the flooded PO valley and the influence of the ligurians.

Interesting map, thanks. Do you have any accompanying text, or the name of the book? I read Italian, so it's fine if it's in Italian.

I'd be interested to know the context of the Liguri/Etruschi coloring up what looks like the Magra Valley from La Spezia. I'm pretty familiar with the history of the area, and everything I've seen points to trade links, and cultural links, but no settlements. In fact, just this year I went to an exhibit about Etruscan artifacts in the Garfagnana, and again there was no mention of settlements.

Sile
15-08-13, 21:15
Interesting map, thanks. Do you have any accompanying text, or the name of the book? I read Italian, so it's fine if it's in Italian.

I'd be interested to know the context of the Liguri/Etruschi coloring up what looks like the Magra Valley from La Spezia. I'm pretty familiar with the history of the area, and everything I've seen points to trade links, and cultural links, but no settlements. In fact, just this year I went to an exhibit about Etruscan artifacts in the Garfagnana, and again there was no mention of settlements.

it was part of this link below

http://nuke.costumilombardi.it/k%C3%A0/k%C3%A01/tabid/158/Default.aspx

but I cannot find the other part ..............my history files got corrupted prior to to the 14th of August

EDIT: Its one of the following 8 pages in the link provided

Toscano
16-08-13, 13:02
And who where this ligurians? they been mention many times? a italic tribe?

Angela
18-08-13, 00:31
it was part of this link below

http://nuke.costumilombardi.it/k%C3%A0/k%C3%A01/tabid/158/Default.aspx

but I cannot find the other part ..............my history files got corrupted prior to to the 14th of August

EDIT: Its one of the following 8 pages in the link provided

Thank you for the link. Some of these maps I've seen before, but I didn't know they were on the internet. I've added them to my library.

I particularly like how they show the Ligurian and Celtic tribes in the area. It's also important, when speculating about migrations into and within Italy in these Bronze Age and Iron Age periods, to remember how much of the Pianura Padana was a lake. It helps to explain why certain sites were chosen over and over again, and narrows down the possible routes.
http://nuke.costumilombardi.it/k%C3%A0/MarPadano/tabid/173/Default.aspx

I misunderstood the map where it shows green into the Magra Valley. That just showed the low lying plains. The other maps clearly do show that the Etruscan area started south of Massa, so therefore just at the beginning of the Massa-Rimini linguistic line. So, that division has remained constant for at least 2500 years.

This is the Massa Senigallia line for anyone unfamiliar with it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/La_spezia-rimini_line.png/280px-La_spezia-rimini_line.png

This is another, more detailed view of the linguistic divide:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XrLJW7EZ61w/SqJKvtJWUsI/AAAAAAAABj0/b-wr2B3shlc/s400/mappa_dialetti.gif


I don't think many non-Italians realize that, in a way, that line marks out what was considered by the Romans of that time as "Italy". It was everything south of that line which they considered "Italy". That's why when Caesar crossed the Rubicon (which was probably somewhere around Senegallia, it was such a momentous act; it was only then that he invaded his country.

Btw, this is what I was taught as well. I still think most of it is accurate. The only exception would be where the text locates the origin of the Liguri. I'm aware of the origin stories about a location in the north near a body of water, but as to putting it that far north, who the heck knows. What I do know is that by the time the Romans were advancing into this region, the Liguri, even if one were to assume that they were an early "Indo-European" group, must have already absorbed the earlier Neolithic inhabitants, and some Gallic migrations as well.

Sile
18-08-13, 00:50
Thank you for the link. Some of these maps I've seen before, but I didn't know they were on the internet. I've added them to my library.

I particularly like how they show the Ligurian and Celtic tribes in the area. It's also important, when speculating about migrations into and within Italy in these Bronze Age and Iron Age periods, to remember how much of the Pianura Padana was a lake. It helps to explain why certain sites were chosen over and over again, and narrows down the possible routes.
http://nuke.costumilombardi.it/k%C3%A0/MarPadano/tabid/173/Default.aspx

I misunderstood the map where it shows green into the Magra Valley. That just showed the low lying plains. The other maps clearly do show that the Etruscan area started south of Massa, so therefore just at the beginning of the Massa-Rimini linguistic line. So, that division has remained constant for at least 2500 years.

This is the Massa Senigallia line for anyone unfamiliar with it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/La_spezia-rimini_line.png/280px-La_spezia-rimini_line.png

This is another, more detailed view of the linguistic divide:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XrLJW7EZ61w/SqJKvtJWUsI/AAAAAAAABj0/b-wr2B3shlc/s400/mappa_dialetti.gif


I don't think many non-Italians realize that, in a way, that line marks out what was considered by the Romans of that time as "Italy". It was everything south of that line which they considered "Italy". That's why when Caesar crossed the Rubicon (which was probably somewhere around Senegallia, it was such a momentous act; it was only then that he invaded his country.

Btw, this is what I was taught as well. I still think most of it is accurate. The only exception would be where the text locates the origin of the Liguri. I'm aware of the origin stories about a location in the north near a body of water, but as to putting it that far north, who the heck knows. What I do know is that by the time the Romans were advancing into this region, the Liguri, even if one were to assume that they were an early "Indo-European" group, must have already absorbed the earlier Neolithic inhabitants, and some Gallic migrations as well.

I have been trying to tell people here that the inhabited Po valley was a linguistic and genetic split as well , to a degree..........but you can lead a horse to water.........

site below shows the linguistic split as well

http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/Mappe/LinguePadanesi.png


from this site below

(http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/Mappe/LinguePadanesi.png)http://www.alpdn.org/alp/

Sile
18-08-13, 00:59
I believe the ancient ligurians ( Liguri) formed on the current Italian and french borders and was influenced by Greek and Iberia ( only catalonia area) migrations.

Toscano
22-08-13, 18:09
0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


I believe your wrong. There is no evidence for that. This forum is just full with Nordicists and racebastards..

Angela
22-08-13, 18:57
0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


I believe your wrong. There is no evidence for that. This forum is just full with Nordicists and racebastards..


It may be, but I'm not one of them, far from it, so I hope you weren't addressing me.

As far as ancient Italian dna goes...we have one fully tested sample...Oetzi. He's far from Nordic...more like a Sardinian. We have no Etruscan dna except some badly tested mtdna (only HVRI), and that shows similarities to the Near East that could go back to the Neolithic.

No Liguri have been tested, no Galli or Celtici, no Italici or Sicani or Samniti or on and on. We also don't know the make-up of the ancient Greek settlers and traders, or the Phoenicians, or even the Moors who came later. This concept that modern populations inhabiting the geography of ancient populations have remained totally unchanged, and so can tell us exactly what the ancients were like, is very problematical as far as I'm concerned.

So, we know very little. Most of what people do who are interested in pre-history is speculation; some of it reasoned and cautious, some driven by an agenda. You have to separate the 'wheat from the chaff'.

Noman
23-08-13, 01:26
This concept that modern populations inhabiting the geography of ancient populations have remained totally unchanged, and so can tell us exactly what the ancients were like, is very problematical as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, this is the root of most of the dumb theories I see, but then also some of the proposed migrations are pretty insane or from historical evidence we know they went the other way. So basically everyone seems to want it both ways. The ones they say are always there have been there forever, and yet others have to have made some really bizarre migrations for that to be true.

Sile
11-02-14, 08:54
paper re corrected last week, apparently original was muddled and incorrect

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/italian-haploid-genetics-second-round.html

Sile
11-02-14, 20:30
paper re corrected last week, apparently original was muddled and incorrect

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/italian-haploid-genetics-second-round.html

@maciano

did you use this paper from a year ago, if so, then you need to correct your data and maps and this correct version from last week has different results...........

LeBrok
11-02-14, 20:57
Etruscan are Anatolian people their descend still live Anatolia their dna is the same!!! ─░talians are children of Anatolians LOL
Please post DNA research papers of Etruscans and Anatolians. Otherwise your bold statement will remain in a realm of fantasy.
Actually post your DNA admixtures to see how related you are to Italians.

Mars
23-03-14, 16:25
And who where this ligurians? they been mention many times? a italic tribe?
Unfortunately, we know almost nothing about them. All I know is that the Lunigiana area, that was heavily resettled by ligurian colonists during the Roman domination, carry R1b haplogroup, of the U-152. My two cents opinion is that they were an ancient proto-celtic tribe, that settled south some time in history and maybe mixed with local neolithic populations and later, maybe, greek merchants/colonists who influenced them a bit, especially in modern day Provence. But it's just a humble opinion, I'm aware of it...

Angela
23-03-14, 18:14
Unfortunately, we know almost nothing about them. All I know is that the Lunigiana area, that was heavily resettled by ligurian colonists during the Roman domination, carry R1b haplogroup, of the U-152. My two cents opinion is that they were an ancient proto-celtic tribe, that settled south some time in history and maybe mixed with local neolithic populations and later, maybe, greek merchants/colonists who influenced them a bit, especially in modern day Provence. But it's just a humble opinion, I'm aware of it...

Sounds pretty good to me given the little data we actually have...although I might quibble about a few things. For example, I'm not aware of any reliable four grandparent study that examined the R1b in the Lunigiana itself at any subclade level. If you have one I'd absolutely love to see it.

Years ago, I did see a paper done by a university student that measured general yDNA in the upper, middle, and lower Lunigiana, but it was based on very few ySTR's and was very problematic for that reason. Also, it was not clear that these results were necessarily those of "native" people of the Lunigiana.

The yDNA results of LaSpezia and Massa are not necessarily representative of the Lunigiana, in my view, although I suppose it depends whether you feel that La Spezia and adjoining coastal areas represent a slightly different group. The same judgment would have to be made about the people of the Garfagnana.

And, of course, the people of all these areas have admixed over the years.

As to the Ligures in general, I think it is very difficult to use modern populations to get a handle on their make-up, even if you use very extensive filtering by area and by number of grandparents from each area. Ancient DNA is the only reliable method, in my opinion.

Oh, I would also add that there was Roman era input. Luni was, of course, a Roman colony planted to pacify the area after the wars. It was a very substantial, prosperous city in its own right, so impressive that marauding sea borne Barbarians thought it was Rome when they first saw it. It was repeatedly sacked, and finally the inhabitants abandoned it en masse, and followed their Bishop first to Carrara and then to Sarzana.

For those who might be unfamiliar with it, this is the English language Wiki treatment of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luni,_Italy#cite_note-6

http://www.casadrago.it/ENG/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Luni.jpg



I'm also interested in what you mean by saying that the Lunigiana was "resettled by Ligurian colonists during the Roman occupation". Whom were the inhabitants prior to that time in your view?

Sile
23-03-14, 20:09
Unfortunately, we know almost nothing about them. All I know is that the Lunigiana area, that was heavily resettled by ligurian colonists during the Roman domination, carry R1b haplogroup, of the U-152. My two cents opinion is that they were an ancient proto-celtic tribe, that settled south some time in history and maybe mixed with local neolithic populations and later, maybe, greek merchants/colonists who influenced them a bit, especially in modern day Provence. But it's just a humble opinion, I'm aware of it...

The link below is the Latest information on R1b, it includes Mr. Hammer November 2013 presentation to genetic scholars

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/the-story-of-r1b-its-complicated.html


IMO, R1b-U152 is the origins of the Celts

Mars
23-03-14, 22:42
I don't think it could help, anyway my Y DNA is R-U152, subclade Z-36, and my paternal line is strongly rooted in Liguria, specifically the appenninic area around Rossiglione and the Turchino Col. I can't track my ancestry back to pre-roman times although ;-)