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Maciamo
14-12-12, 13:47
I have created a chronology of the I2 phylogeny to help better visualise the various subclades.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/I2-tree.gif

Gosh
14-12-12, 14:07
I have created a chronology of the I2 phylogeny to help better visualise the various subclades.



It would be great if you put TMRCA for these haplogroups.

In any case, a good job!

Knovas
14-12-12, 15:41
I really wonder which specific subclade is mine. Adriano Squecco told me two years ago aprox my best result was "I2a1", when the new nomenclature was not yet available, so this is the same as telling I2a1a. However, I think he cannot gave a more accurate description because 23andme lacks some markers, so I'm afraid if I want more info I'll need to test FTDNA or something like this.

Thanks for the tree.

sparkey
14-12-12, 18:18
I really wonder which specific subclade is mine. Adriano Squecco told me two years ago aprox my best result was "I2a1", when the new nomenclature was not yet available, so this is the same as telling I2a1a. However, I think he cannot gave a more accurate description because 23andme lacks some markers, so I'm afraid if I want more info I'll need to test FTDNA or something like this.

Thanks for the tree.

I expect you to be L160+... there is some L160- in Spain (not sure about Catalonia) but generally L160- is more French, sometimes British/Irish/Norwegian. I'm not sure if 23andMe tests L160.

Incidentally, this tree may change once again quite soon with Geno 2.0 SNPs coming out. Per Bernie Cullen (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2012-12/1355330579):


I don't know of enough Geno 2.0 results in I2 to look for new terminal
SNPs. So I am trying to figure out what high level relationships they
may have already incorporated into their tree, based on the new Geno
2.0 haplogroup labels. Something to do until we have multiple I-L161
results to compare with each other etc.

I2b1b is what they call I-L38 (I2b2 at FTDNA)

I2b2a1 is what they call I-L621 (I2a2 "Dinaric" at FTDNA)

I2b2b1 is what they call I-M26 (I2a1 at FTDNA)

Have they added new levels to the tree or just rearranged it?


To answer Bernie's question, it looks like there's at least one new SNP on the M26 branch... maybe one to unite M26+ with L1286+ (I2a-Alpine and I2a-Western)?

Knovas
14-12-12, 20:47
Thanks sparkey for sharing your wisdom, you're probably right. I am not versed in this kind of things, 23andme only says I'm I2a1, so their nomenclature needs an update since a very long time. That's why I asked Adriano Squecco and he was only able to tell what I posted.

My earliest known Canovas ancestor comes from Murcia, but this region was repopulated in historical times by Catalans and Aragonese during "Reconquista". The variant Canoves exists in Catalonia prior to this event (and still exists nowadays), so it can be considered Catalan in origins. Certainly, genealogy, history and genetics fit here.

Maybe Catalans would show both L160+ and L160-, since the French and the rest of Iberians are our neighbours. Don't know If I'll confirm mine one day...I prefer to do it for free if possible LOL.

zanipolo
14-12-12, 21:42
Thanks sparkey for sharing your wisdom, you're probably right. I am not versed in this kind of things, 23andme only says I'm I2a1, so their nomenclature needs an update since a very long time. That's why I asked Adriano Squecco and he was only able to tell what I posted.

My earliest known Canovas ancestor comes from Murcia, but this region was repopulated in historical times by Catalans and Aragonese during "Reconquista". The variant Canoves exists in Catalonia prior to this event (and still exists nowadays), so it can be considered Catalan in origins. Certainly, genealogy, history and genetics fit here.

Maybe Catalans would show both L160+ and L160-, since the French and the rest of Iberians are our neighbours. Don't know If I'll confirm mine one day...I prefer to do it for free if possible LOL.

maybe you need to reference it with the pre-roman findings from the article i posted in "ancient italian dna thread", half the testers where spanish and half italian.
they seem to think all I in ancient times is from the balkans, that is, in pre-roman history

I would also love to find out what the I* which is heavily on the adriatic side of Italy is

zanipolo
14-12-12, 21:45
I expect you to be L160+... there is some L160- in Spain (not sure about Catalonia) but generally L160- is more French, sometimes British/Irish/Norwegian. I'm not sure if 23andMe tests L160.

Incidentally, this tree may change once again quite soon with Geno 2.0 SNPs coming out. Per Bernie Cullen (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2012-12/1355330579):



To answer Bernie's question, it looks like there's at least one new SNP on the M26 branch... maybe one to unite M26+ with L1286+ (I2a-Alpine and I2a-Western)?

I am trying to help my sister who is looking into my fathers, mothers father who is I2c1 ......where can she search in regards to SNP's?
All she has it its Alemani ...either southern germany near the rhine or Verona area

sparkey
15-12-12, 01:25
I am trying to help my sister who is looking into my fathers, mothers father who is I2c1 ......where can she search in regards to SNP's?
All she has it its Alemani ...either southern germany near the rhine or Verona area

I doubt there will be anything new for I2c1... there's not a lot of interest in that clade. I'll post about it sometime if there's something that splits it; otherwise, STRs are good enough for anybody in it for now.

There is an interesting Geno 2.0 transfer at the FTDNA project right now, but they're in I2c*-B.

zanipolo
15-12-12, 06:02
I doubt there will be anything new for I2c1... there's not a lot of interest in that clade. I'll post about it sometime if there's something that splits it; otherwise, STRs are good enough for anybody in it for now.

There is an interesting Geno 2.0 transfer at the FTDNA project right now, but they're in I2c*-B.

ok

maybe below is useful ...from T.Robb

UPDATE11: Some Geno 2.0 SNPs that may be of interest to Haplogroup I1

The current I1 SNP tree is roughly given by the following pathways:

I1-M253 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → M227 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → M227 → M72 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → P109 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L205 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L287 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L287 → L258 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L287 → L258 → L296 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L300 I1-M253 → DF29 → L22 → L813 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z140 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z140 → L338 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z140 → L592 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z73 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → Z73 → L1302 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L573 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L803 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L803 → L802 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z60 → L803 → L1247 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z2040 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z2040 → Z2038 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z59 → Z2040 → Z2038 → Z382 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z58 → Z139 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z63 → * I1-M253 → DF29 → Z63 → L1237 I1-M253 → DF29 → Z63 → L1242 I1-M253 → Z131

Of the SNPs in the Geno 2.0 test, there are approximately four hundred SNPs in the y-chromosome that are derived (rather than ancestral) that have so far been seen in at least some haplogroup I1 people. Most of those SNPs will probably be phyloequivalent to the SNPs given in the I1 SNP tree pathway shown above. But there are still a few interesting Geno 2.0 SNP alleles that may be important to haplogroup I1 people.
They are:
F1583+, found in an P109+ person.
F2642+, found in an Z140+ person.
F3312+, found in an M253+, but Z58-, Z63-, Z131- person.
CTS7362+, CTS9352+, CTS9477+, found in a single L573+ person.
YSC0000261+, found in three separate Z140+ people.
CTS8647+, found in the same three people as YSC0000261+, and also in another Z140+ person, a L573+ person, and a Z60+ person.

or here at bottom
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

sparkey
15-12-12, 11:17
maybe below is useful ...from T.Robb

Useful for I1, of course. For I2, we're getting something:


I now have 5 csv files from Geno 2.0 and I have compared them to find
a list of new SNPs in I-P37.2. I have not yet compiled a list of SNPs
equivalent to P37.2, but I think I have tried to find all SNPs below
P37.2. There are sure to be errors and omissions in this list--Bernie

approximately P37.2 (no call for P37.2 but ancestral for non-P37.2 groups):
PF3893


approximately M26:
CTS10400
CTS1049
CTS10546
CTS11143
CTS1132
CTS11548
CTS11766
CTS12060
CTS1272
CTS1448
CTS3353
CTS5932
CTS595
CTS6027
CTS7218
CTS7373
CTS7671
CTS8968
PF3818
PF3848
PF3863
PF3865
PF3875
PF3947
PF3962
PF3963
PF3965
PF3969
PF3972
PF3973
PF3975
PF3977
PF3978
PF3980
PF3983
PF3984
PF3985
PF3988
PF3992
PF3999
PF4000
PF4043
PF4046
PF4047
PF4048
PF4049
PF4050
PF4061
PF4069
PF4075
PF4076
PF4079
PF4080
PF4098

approximately M26 (multiple alleles in M26 but single, ancestral
allele in non-M26 groups):
PF3971
PF3981
PF4074

approximately M26 (no call at M26 but ancestral allele in non-M26 groups):
CTS2515
CTS8969
PF3968

approximately L160:
CTS11229
CTS11338
CTS11972
CTS2111
CTS6406
CTS7201
CTS8038
CTS9062
PF4053
PF4060
PF4086
PF4088
PF4089
PF4096
PF4189
Z105
Z120

below M26 and parallel to L160:
PF6947

approxmately M423
CTS11030
CTS1293
CTS176
CTS1802
CTS5375
CTS5985
CTS8239
CTS8486

approximately L621:
CTS10228
CTS1027
CTS10936
CTS11768
CTS1846
CTS4002
CTS4012
CTS5966
CTS7175
CTS7213
CTS9349
F3145

approximately L161 (no call for L161 but ancestral for non-L161 groups):
F2805
L669

below L621:
none so far

Knovas
15-12-12, 18:10
He will probably post something at 23andme to check SNPs. Let's see if it's possible to know more with the SNPs available.

Kardu
17-12-12, 20:08
Interestingly with new data processed through our Georgian DNA project, we now have more different surnames tested as I2c-B than any other ethnic group including Armenians.

sparkey
17-12-12, 21:35
Interestingly with new data processed through our Georgian DNA project, we now have more different surnames tested as I2c-B than any other ethnic group including Armenians.

Are Georgians also beating Armenians in I2c-B diversity now? If so, that would change some conceptions about the Asian spread of the cluster. If you can't tell, it might be worth asking Paul Givargidze if he could redo his old I2 L460- tree (http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/i2/pats) so we can visualize it. I predict Armenians will still have more diversity, but I would be fascinated if that wasn't the case...

Kardu
17-12-12, 21:49
Thanks Sparkey, I will ask him once we are allowed to make the haplotypes public on FTDNA.

Meanwhile here is the tree which we've made with some new Georgians (me included). Georgians (underlined) seem to be spread around the tree. http://s017.radikal.ru/i434/1212/12/b6af247c7669.jpg

Kardu
17-12-12, 22:17
Why do you think that Armenians will have more diversity? :)

sparkey
17-12-12, 22:51
Why do you think that Armenians will have more diversity? :)

I expect that I2c-B is a European import that went through Anatolia around to the Caucasus. If Georgians have more diversity than Armenians, that might imply a different direction.

Kardu
17-12-12, 23:28
I expect that I2c-B is a European import that went through Anatolia around to the Caucasus. If Georgians have more diversity than Armenians, that might imply a different direction.

I also believe that I2c came to the Caucasus from Europe/Balkans but I think your consideration about its diversity is based on linguistic grounds, namely since Armenians speak Indo-European language (hypothetically from a Balkan group) and Georgians don't, the former must have more diverse set of Balkan haplotypes.
I think we should take in consideration the fact that Armenians are heavily admixed people, and while they speak an IndoEuropean language (with strong local subtsrate) they are by no means homogenous and consist of various layers of ancient populations of Anatolia, Caucasus and Mesopotamia.
While Mushki/Meskhi/Phrigyans (with whom I believe I2c appeared in the Caucasus) didn't manage to change language of the ancestors of modern Georgians their presence in various parts of the country is well attested by Greeks, Romans and later authors.
Current Georgian I2c-s come from different parts of Georgia, mountains and low-lands alike. Hopefully in January we will be already able to make their results public.

sparkey
21-12-12, 19:36
Per Nordtvedt (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2012-12/1356057970), Geno 2.0 has produced a "horde" of new SNPs relevant to I2c: PF3911, PF3917, PF3931, PF3938, PF3927, PF3887, PF3889, PF3893, PF3895, PF3896, PF3898, PF3903, PF3906, and F2554. All of these were found in a Hungarian I2c-B sample but not in L460+ samples, and they could all be anywhere on the tree from the split with L460+ to private. That is, expect some to unite I2c with I2b-ADR, some to be equivalent to L596, some to uniquely define I2c-B, and some to subdivide I2c-B.

Kardu
21-12-12, 21:51
Per Nordtvedt (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2012-12/1356057970), Geno 2.0 has produced a "horde" of new SNPs relevant to I2c: PF3911, PF3917, PF3931, PF3938, PF3927, PF3887, PF3889, PF3893, PF3895, PF3896, PF3898, PF3903, PF3906, and F2554. All of these were found in a Hungarian I2c-B sample but not in L460+ samples, and they could all be anywhere on the tree from the split with L460+ to private. That is, expect some to unite I2c with I2b-ADR, some to be equivalent to L596, some to uniquely define I2c-B, and some to subdivide I2c-B.

Excellent news! Finally I can order a new test...

sparkey
17-01-13, 20:16
So none of the new SNPs found in the I2c-B folk (now 2 samples) are unique to I2c-B... sorry I2c-B people, it looks like you're still I2c*. An I2c-A person (a close relation to Bigfoot Wallace) got a lot of new SNPs not common with I2c-B, though: PF3881, PF3892, PF3904, PF3912, PF3918, PF3924, PF3928, PF3930, PF3933, PF3937, PF6328, PF6914, and PF6915. We're not sure yet which of these define the A cluster and which split it (or perhaps unite it with the L1251+ C cluster? we shall see...).

Kardu
17-01-13, 23:45
Thanks, Sparkey :) No worries, it does make us feel special :):)

zanipolo
26-01-13, 21:46
Per Nordtvedt (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2012-12/1356057970), Geno 2.0 has produced a "horde" of new SNPs relevant to I2c: PF3911, PF3917, PF3931, PF3938, PF3927, PF3887, PF3889, PF3893, PF3895, PF3896, PF3898, PF3903, PF3906, and F2554. All of these were found in a Hungarian I2c-B sample but not in L460+ samples, and they could all be anywhere on the tree from the split with L460+ to private. That is, expect some to unite I2c with I2b-ADR, some to be equivalent to L596, some to uniquely define I2c-B, and some to subdivide I2c-B.

would you know the subclades which belong to

I2a3 - alpine

I2a3 - western

sparkey
28-01-13, 17:56
would you know the subclades which belong to

I2a3 - alpine

I2a3 - western

They are united with the SNP L1286, and have just been united with M26 with the Geno 2.0 SNP CTS595. Alpine is L1286+ L233- L348-; Western is L1286+ L233+ L348-; and there is an outlier group (surname Fleming) that is L1286+ L233+ L348+.

sparkey
08-02-13, 02:09
The latest I2c Geno 2.0 sample comes from the L1251+ ("C") branch, and several of the SNPs mentioned earlier as being in the A branch but not the B branch, such as PF3881, were found in the L1251+ sample. So, that unites clusters A and C. We need more samples, but PF6328 could uniquely define the A branch, because that one was not on the C branch.

So now we have SNP definitions for the 3 I2c branches:
"A": PF3881+ L1251-
"B": PF3881- L1251-
"C": PF3881+ L1251+

Group B is the outlier, which makes sense considering how much its geographic distribution differs.