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View Full Version : Ramesses III belonged to haplogroup E1b1a



Maciamo
21-12-12, 10:49
We've got the Y-DNA results of Ramesses III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III) (reigned 1186–1155 BCE), the second pharaoh of Egypt's 20th dynasty. Based on his 13 STR markers tested, the probabilities are that he belonged to haplogroup E1b1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38_%28Y-DNA%29) (aka E-V38, the Black African branch), although there is a faint possibility that it is E1b1b (E-M215, the Northeast African and Mediterranean branch).

Here are the STR values recovered for Ramesses III.

DYS 19 = 19
DYS 385a,b = 20
DYS 389I = 13
DYS 389II = 33
DYS 390 = 21
DYS 391 = 8
DYS 392 = 17
DYS 393 = 8
DYS 437 = 14
DYS 438 = 10
DYS 448 = 20
DYS 456 = 13
Y-GATA-H4 = 13

BMJ : Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study (http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268)



Objective To investigate the true character of the harem conspiracy described in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin and determine whether Ramesses III was indeed killed.

Design Anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study of the mummies of Ramesses III and unknown man E, found together and taken from the 20th dynasty of ancient Egypt (circa 1190-1070 BC).

Results Computed tomography scans revealed a deep cut in Ramesses III’s throat, probably made by a sharp knife. During the mummification process, a Horus eye amulet was inserted in the wound for healing purposes, and the neck was covered by a collar of thick linen layers. Forensic examination of unknown man E showed compressed skin folds around his neck and a thoracic inflation. Unknown man E also had an unusual mummification procedure. According to genetic analyses, both mummies had identical haplotypes of the Y chromosome and a common male lineage.

Conclusions This study suggests that Ramesses III was murdered during the harem conspiracy by the cutting of his throat. Unknown man E is a possible candidate as Ramesses III’s son Pentawere.

kamani
21-12-12, 18:06
interesting...judging from pictures of the mummy, Ramesses III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III) was sort of caucasoid. This might mean that even the Black African branch E1b1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38_%28Y-DNA%29) was originally caucasoid.

sparkey
21-12-12, 18:52
He appears to have had some STR patterns that we don't really see in modern populations. 393=8 and 19=19 are seen almost never, and certainly aren't characteristic of E1b1a. So we might want to be skeptical of using haplogroup predictors here. I suppose the rest of the markers point to E1b of some sort.

Kaser
26-07-17, 01:17
I put his STRs in Nevgen.org and It came as E-V22, and E1b1b, I'm just saying...

IronSide
26-07-17, 02:09
I put his STRs in Nevgen.org and It came as E-V22, and E1b1b, I'm just saying...

So out of all possible E1b1b it gave us V22, common in northern Egypt, interesting.

Genetiker
26-07-17, 16:04
I put his STRs in Nevgen.org and It came as E-V22, and E1b1b, I'm just saying...

I was the first person to analyze the Ramesses III data with the NevGen haplogroup predictor, in my post here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/06/04/k-14-admixture-analysis-of-ancient-egyptian-genomes/) from almost two months ago.

I've had many hits from Brazil on my blog over the past week. You probably saw what I did and thought you'd come here and take credit for my discovery. You did the same thing on another forum here (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=39344&p=1307594&viewfull=1#post1307594).

I don't appreciate people plagiarizing my work, as has been done by multiple people now.

Rethel
26-07-17, 22:43
When are you going to put something new on your blog?

For example you can discover the hg of the Sungir guy :smile:

Kaser
27-07-17, 23:11
I was the first person to analyze the Ramesses III data with the NevGen haplogroup predictor, in my post from almost two months ago.

I've had many hits from Brazil on my blog over the past week. You probably saw what I did and thought you'd come here and take credit for my discovery. You did the same thing on another forum
I don't appreciate people plagiarizing my work, as has been done by multiple people now.

I dont know what are you talking about honestly, stop accusing me of that! And I didnt read your post. but thanks for sharing I will now.

Edit:
My post has nothing to do with yours, no where there you mentioned E-V22, and STRs and Nevgen are open to the public and free to use, respectively any fool could have done it. I dont see any plagiary. actually, we go by your assumption of plagiary, the editor of EthioHelix would accuse us both of this then.

[...]
"Plugging these numbers in Whit Athey's predictor (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm) does indeed indicate that his haplogroup is E1b1a with 99.1% probability using equal priors. The decisive DYS, to judge between E1b1a and E1b1b, is DYS 390, with the exclusion of DYS 390, his haplotype belongs to 83.7 % E1b1b and 15.8% E1b1a, however, it is well known that DYS 390 = 21 is a high probability (http://www.yhrd.org/DYS390) signature for West/Central/Southern Africa, i.e. where E1b1a dominates (see below)."
[...]
"Upon receiving an e-mail stating that the haplotype could still belong to E1b1b, on the basis of a haplotype from Chad present in the FTDNA database that has DYS 390 = 21, I further looked into it, the presence of such a haplotype would not necessarily refute what the authors of this study are claiming, because if one enters the repeats for those Chad E1b1b haplotypes (http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/kitnum/216347) (but only for the same DYS#'s that are included this study) into the predictor, i.e. :"
[...]
"one would still get an assignment to haplogroup E1b1b with 88.6% probability and only a 5.6% probability that the haplotype may belong to E1b1a, therefore, I highly doubt that this pharaoh's haplotype, if extracted correctly and with out contamination, would be anything but E1b1a, absent an SNP test however, one can never be 100% sure."

Quoting EthioHelix, 2012
<http://ethiohelix.blogspot.com.br/2012/12/ramesses-iii-belonged-to-ydna.html>

Obviously we are not plagiarising Ethio either, you see?

their mistake is to spread that he was E1b1a, predicted, when there was a huge chance f he being E1b1b instead. fuelling we wuz kangz movement.

Kaser
27-07-17, 23:22
So out of all possible E1b1b it gave us V22, common in northern Egypt, interesting.

It makes a lot more sense since its common in Egypt. I dont understand why these people tested so few markers, used a shit predictor and spread the new that he was E1b1a..

mlukas
28-07-17, 00:06
It makes a lot more sense since its common in Egypt. I dont understand why these people tested so few markers, used a shit predictor and spread the new that he was E1b1a..

Is his genome available somewhere or only Y-Str?

Kaser
28-07-17, 00:26
Is his genome available somewhere or only Y-Str?
I found his strs here and on Ethiohelix blog, that said he was more than 80% E1b1b, predicted.

i'm not sure about his genome tho.

I1a3_Young
01-08-17, 18:25
Are there any dissenters on this site for the large chance of E1b1b rather than E1b1a? I'm not as well versed in STR testing but the methods here seem to point to E1b1b.

It would still be a chance though and not a definite conclusion.

Kaser
21-09-17, 18:24
Are there any dissenters on this site for the large chance of E1b1b rather than E1b1a? I'm not as well versed in STR testing but the methods here seem to point to E1b1b.

It would still be a chance though and not a definite conclusion.

A friend showed me this link from 2012. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-12/1355934165

I1a3_Young
21-09-17, 18:31
So it sounds like the STR values are a bit off the wall and we don't really know whether it's E1b1a, E1b1b, or something else?

Angela
21-09-17, 19:10
I think the odds are that it's E-V22, but I don't think we can be certain without more testing. That would make sense given it's current presence in North Africa, as someone mentioned upthread.

gwgatling
20-01-19, 05:13
No, human beings do not start and end with europeans.

Elaishousse
13-02-19, 15:06
I think Ramses 3 on YDNA EM329 or EV22

Alyan
14-02-19, 14:12
You should wait for the upcoming study with an Early Middle Kingdom genome.