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Coriolan
28-12-12, 23:33
I have read some interesting topics on this forum about the link between low fetal testosterone levels and the increased chances of baby boys developing a female brain and becoming gay in adulthood.

I have a brother who is gay, and I was told that our mother really wanted to have a girl when she was pregnant with him. I have heard of a similar case in another family. Do you think that the mother's strong desires and expectations can truly influence her baby's hormones and brain development to turn him into a homosexual boy ? Has anybody heard of cases like this too ?

kesi
15-01-13, 12:52
I do not think so, how can mother's wish or longing for a female child influence this child's future sexuality.

Never heard of this case.

MrKappa
20-03-13, 23:43
Out of the womb, sure... in the womb, without medical intervention, probably no.

This makes me think of adoption, and hormone therapies before puberty.




This is a popular paper which mentions female bi-sexuality is the norm. It's very popular...


Gender and Sexual Orientation Differences in Sexual Response to Sexual
Activities Versus Gender of Actors in Sexual Films


tinyurl . com / bwaxu3j

gervais
27-04-13, 20:33
Until the seventh week, the embryos are neither male nor female.

It is the Y chromosome in males that will trigger the process that will bring the embryo to become male.
For girls, there is no triggering elements and the embryo will develop "naturally" to girl

But there is the body and "spirit". Maybe the brain can not follow the direction chosen as the body?
The idea that the mother may influence embryos is not stupid! But I do not know if she can control it!

ritageorge
20-08-14, 13:30
Extremely interesting!
Yes, my research is specifically looking into childhood experiences and drawing on the foetal testosterone theory additionally among those with Autism, with respect to sexual orientation.
Not entirely sure about maternal emotional factors and sexual orientation prenatally, but there is strong evidence of cultural and social factors playing a role in gender-identity which over time partially influences sexual-orientation.
Thank you very much for posting

Maleth
20-08-14, 14:22
Extremely interesting!
Not entirely sure about maternal emotional factors and sexual orientation prenatally, but there is strong evidence of cultural and social factors playing a role in gender-identity which over time partially influences sexual-orientation.
Thank you very much for posting

And how does this work exactly please? There is only 1 year and 8 months between myself and my brother, so we have the same mother (of course) He is hetero I am homo, I was never exposed to pornography at any early stage, I was never molested, I never had to choose I always knew what i wanted deep down to myself but of course not to society, was brought up in a time when talking about homosexuality was a taboo. So how can the environment could have made me a homosexual please?

LeBrok
20-08-14, 16:49
Extremely interesting!
Yes, my research is specifically looking into childhood experiences and drawing on the foetal testosterone theory additionally among those with Autism, with respect to sexual orientation.
Not entirely sure about maternal emotional factors and sexual orientation prenatally, but there is strong evidence of cultural and social factors playing a role in gender-identity which over time partially influences sexual-orientation.
Thank you very much for posting
Welcome to Eupedia ritageorge. I agree with Maleth that sexual-orientation is pretty much set in genes. If there is environmental factor it is more of a social pressures making people to hide their true identity. That's why we see so many men leaving families for a boyfriend in middle age. It happens around age 40 when social/family pressures are not that strong on one's psyche anymore. When one decides to finally follow one's desires, be himself, and stop pretending.
There are also bi-sexual people, and they are the ones who can be sway to chose one side under even little social pressure. Giving impression of environmental gender selection. Perhaps asking people what truly excites them, about their secret desires, might be essential in research.

ebAmerican
20-08-14, 18:05
There is a current debate about PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) and it's feminizing/demasculinizing effects. I do believe the feminizing of the male brain is a piece of the puzzle. I'm not sure if it can be attributed to genetics or the environment. In the 50's PCB caulk was used to seal windows and any other piece of construction that required caulk. EPA has never required the public school systems in the US to test for PCB's. When older schools (built before the 80's) were tested many showed dangerous levels, and a mitigation process had to occur. In the last 50 years we don't know what potential problems things like pesticides, preservatives, and chemical additives are doing to our systems. So yes Maleth, a possible attribute to homosexuality may be environmental. You may have been born with a precursor for homosexuality, but a possible environmental effect could have sealed the deal. Siblings are not always exposed to the same environmental conditions continuously through their formative years. In the case of PCB's some classrooms showed toxic levels, while others were in the EPA safe zone. PCB's are in most plastic bottles that we all drink from. I don't think it is the only cause, but possibly a contributing factor in this very complex issue.

Maleth
20-08-14, 19:57
There is a current debate about PCB's (polychlorinated biphenyls) and it's feminizing/demasculinizing effects. I do believe the feminizing of the male brain is a piece of the puzzle. I'm not sure if it can be attributed to genetics or the environment. In the 50's PCB caulk was used to seal windows and any other piece of construction that required caulk. EPA has never required the public school systems in the US to test for PCB's. When older schools (built before the 80's) were tested many showed dangerous levels, and a mitigation process had to occur. In the last 50 years we don't know what potential problems things like pesticides, preservatives, and chemical additives are doing to our systems. So yes Maleth, a possible attribute to homosexuality may be environmental. You may have been born with a precursor for homosexuality, but a possible environmental effect could have sealed the deal. Siblings are not always exposed to the same environmental conditions continuously through their formative years. In the case of PCB's some classrooms showed toxic levels, while others were in the EPA safe zone. PCB's are in most plastic bottles that we all drink from. I don't think it is the only cause, but possibly a contributing factor in this very complex issue.

So ebAmerican, just to keep it simple. PBC is a pretty recent byproduct. Therefore:-

*) example my brother and myself have followed the same path until puberty and even after until we have gone different ways because of the obvious different sexual orientations. I truly don't believe that I inhaled or was exposed to more PBC than he did.

*) PBC is a recent chemical bi product used in industry. How do you justify ancient homosexuality? Sodom Gomorah, Well known personalities such as Richard the lionheart, Alexander the great, Caravagio just to name a few that would mean that the common homosexual men in the street would have no story recorded. The evident ancient homosexual art. What chemicals could these people have inhaled?

*) If chemical inhalation is a factor than it would be the easiest study you can get, as it will be obvious that whole groups would be homosexual therefore making an easy conclusion. I sincerly believe this is far from the truth, and no Harvard degree is necessary.

Many theories are forced in my opinion to justify that homosexuality is to be blamed on something that can turn things wrong. The fact is and even more proven through modern age internet communication that homosexuality is a world wide occurrence (no matter the level of persecution of any particular region that in reality only put homosexuals underground or seek refuge in more realistic societies) Homosexuals are found in most fundamental Islamic countries, In China in Russia, in Africa and basically all over the world.

Do not mistake homosexuals that are living in more realistic societies who are open with their nature and can show a more realistic pattern to suppressed homosexuals who have no choice but to deny their orientation through Religious / Ideologies persecutions. No one is to blame for a homosexual off spring, its just part of nature as its well documented also in the animal kingdom.

ebAmerican
20-08-14, 21:19
So ebAmerican, just to keep it simple. PBC is a pretty recent byproduct. Therefore:-

*) example my brother and myself have followed the same path until puberty and even after until we have gone different ways because of the obvious different sexual orientations. I truly don't believe that I inhaled or was exposed to more PBC than he did.

The same path does not equate the same exposure. PCB is one example of a current chemical known to feminize males. What about the million other chemical side effects not tested or hidden by greedy corporations? Genetics is a comparative field of study. There have been an adequate number of gay subjects tested. The fact that geneticist haven't found a smoking gun is because it is a very complex issue involving many different genes, or possibly environmentally effected. It might be a gene that needs an environmental stimulus to produce an effect. We don't know. This is my point. To say it is definitely genetic or environmental is a disservice to the ongoing research.




*) PBC is a recent chemical bi product used in industry. How do you justify ancient homosexuality? Sodom Gomorah, Well known personalities such as Richard the lionheart, Alexander the great, Caravagio just to name a few that would mean that the common homosexual men in the street would have no story recorded. The evident ancient homosexual art. What chemicals could these people have inhaled?


PCB is one example. Do not confuse the homosexual act with homosexual exclusivity. I like to refer to it as the Prison Sex Scenario. It has been documented many times of heterosexual males being sent to prison for life and adopting a homosexual lifestyle. Is this person genetically heterosexual or homosexual? Put ancient society into the right context. Brides were arranged. The concept of free love and marriage is a modern concept. There was a large part of the male population that didn't have access to women. Women were property that carried a high value. Only leaders of the community got wives. If your choices are limited, then you will adapt to your best ability. When you hear biblical references take them as allegorical not literal. Strong homoerotic relationships can be created by males in intense situation, like war. Ancient Greek homosexuality was nothing like modern homosexuality. These men who slept with boys had wives. It was a warrior society were strong bonds were created (that led to sexuality - human nature) for mutual protection. I would argue that every male has a potential for some degree of homosexuality (this is what is human and animal nature).



*) If chemical inhalation is a factor than it would be the easiest study you can get, as it will be obvious that whole groups would be homosexual therefore making an easy conclusion. I sincerly believe this is far from the truth, and no Harvard degree is necessary.

Not true - if it's not tested for a specific condition, then it wont be obvious. PCB has been around for a long time, but it's just been recently evaluated for circumstances that have been happening over a prolonged time.
I don't believe it's just a chemical thing. I don't know, like most scientist. Some people are prone to cancer, but are never exposed to an environmental trigger to get cancer. It could be a combination of a gene and environmental exposure, or simply an unknown gene(s). Again, I don't know.




Many theories are forced in my opinion to justify that homosexuality is to be blamed on something that can turn things wrong. The fact is and even more proven through modern age internet communication that homosexuality is a world wide occurrence (no matter the level of persecution of any particular region that in reality only put homosexuals underground or seek refuge in more realistic societies) Homosexuals are found in most fundamental Islamic countries, In China in Russia, in Africa and basically all over the world.

Do not mistake homosexuals that are living in more realistic societies who are open with their nature and can show a more realistic pattern to suppressed homosexuals who have no choice but to deny their orientation through Religious / Ideologies persecutions. No one is to blame for a homosexual off spring, its just part of nature as its well documented also in the animal kingdom.

I'm not vilifying Homosexuality. I'm actually a proponent for a system of free love across the board (pansexuality). I don't care if you are homosexual or heterosexual. It makes no difference. I don't believe that homosexuals or those who partake in homosexual sex (bi-sexual) are deviant or destroying society.

ritageorge
21-08-14, 01:49
What are some of the factors underpinning sexual orientation? This is a question that researchers have been looking into, with different schools of thought, some advocating genetic predispositions, neurological underpinnings and others inclined towards psycho-social factors. My research is looking into some of these factors to do with biological predeterminism in combination with social factors. We are trying to raise acceptance and support for those within the Autism population and their sexual orientations and gender-identities.
Thank you for posting, Maleth.

ritageorge
21-08-14, 01:52
Excellent point and very insightful. Thank you for posting this. Part of my questionnaire in my survey looks at sexual attractions, which are more covert, in addition to sexual contacts and behaviours.
We hope to raise support and understanding among the Autism community and promote awareness of sexual diversity alongside neurodiversity.

kamani
21-08-14, 02:46
even heterosexuality varies widely between people. Some men find it very difficult to settle with one woman, there is a certain race famous for that.... Some men are fine with one wife all their life, even if she is not that attractive. Some men don't care enough and never marry. I think society for political and economical reasons, becomes very restricting and oppressing when it comes to accepting various shades of sexuality.

Maleth
21-08-14, 09:16
What are some of the factors underpinning sexual orientation?
Thank you for posting, Maleth.

You are welcome and thank you for your work.

Maleth
21-08-14, 10:13
The same path does not equate the same exposure. PCB is one example of a current chemical known to feminize males.

with the same measuring stick, are there chemicals responsible to masculinize females? they are just abundant as homosexual males. Also not all males or females, that are open with their sexuality are feminized or masculinzed and its difficult to know from their daily behavior. Then you find other groups where they feel born very effeminate males (or other way round) but feel they are women (or men) in the wrong body. These are people who go through lengths to have reassignment. Funnily enough countries like Iran who, executes homosexuals, pays for gender reassignment interventions.


Do not confuse the homosexual act with homosexual exclusivity. I like to refer to it as the Prison Sex Scenario. It has been documented many times of heterosexual males being sent to prison for life and adopting a homosexual lifestyle. Is this person genetically heterosexual or homosexual?

I truly think its a mixed bag. Some are genuine homosexuals, others are purely Bi sexual (up to sometime ago I did not believe in bi sexuality, but now I know it really exists). It could also be genuine sexual deprivation and an ultimate source of relief (which is something I cannot imagine from my part in a similar scenario but the other way round), and some of them never engage in sexual activity.


Put ancient society into the right context. Brides were arranged.The concept of free love and marriage is a modern concept. There was a large part of the male population that didn't have access to women. Women were property that carried a high value. Only leaders of the community got wives. If your choices are limited, then you will adapt to your best ability. When you hear biblical references take them as allegorical not literal. Strong homoerotic relationships can be created by males in intense situation, like war. Ancient Greek homosexuality was nothing like modern homosexuality. These men who slept with boys had wives. It was a warrior society were strong bonds were created (that led to sexuality - human nature) for mutual protection. I would argue that every male has a potential for some degree of homosexuality (this is what is human and animal nature).


Thats a good reason not to have a marriage as prove of being heterosexual like some people argue when it comes to debate these peoples sexuality with evident stories. Especially with Kings and queens who were expected to keep on having heirs for the continuity of power. In my opinion the stories that come out of these ancient personalities are not a result of women deprivation or buddy bonding during war. We are never going to know much about the homosexual commoner. I don't want to offend anyone, but probably good number they would have been absorbed in some kind of religious order and live in communities.


I'm not vilifying Homosexuality. I'm actually a proponent for a system of free love across the board (pansexuality). I don't care if you are homosexual or heterosexual. It makes no difference. I don't believe that homosexuals or those who partake in homosexual sex (bi-sexual) are deviant or destroying society.

I understand that, but I have the experience of painfully seeing a number of parents traumatized (especially mothers) that they were to blame that their son/daughter homosexuality (as if homosexuality is something to be traumatized about!). When you get these notions that example someone can pray on you and you change your sexuality, or that nurturing has to do with it, or maybe some chemical can make you gay, it does not help the reality of the situation and give rise to an environment of hope for change (when we know it does not happen/ only suppressing and acting can happen and I can tell you a 101 story). When one studies homosexuality in humans cannot disassociate itself from homosexuality in animals in general. It happens too so there is a more natural reason for it.

LeBrok
22-08-14, 01:39
with the same measuring stick, are there chemicals responsible to masculinize females? they are just abundant as homosexual males. Also not all males or females, that are open with their sexuality are feminized or masculinzed and its difficult to know from their daily behavior. Then you find other groups where they feel born very effeminate males (or other way round) but feel they are women (or men) in the wrong body. These are people who go through lengths to have reassignment. Funnily enough countries like Iran who, executes homosexuals, pays for gender reassignment interventions. I truly think its a mixed bag. Some are genuine homosexuals, others are purely Bi sexual (up to sometime ago I did not believe in bi sexuality, but now I know it really exists). It could also be genuine sexual deprivation and an ultimate source of relief (which is something I cannot imagine from my part in a similar scenario but the other way round), and some of them never engage in sexual activity. These examples point to many causes of homosexuality. I mean there is a strong genetic (as one) component which can go wrong in many ways (assuming the straight man and woman is the goal of evolution). There are few sectors of brain that can get mixed in male/female orientation. There could be overproduction of hormones. There could be lack of correlated with them receptors on cells' walls. There could be methylation problem in DNA expressing wrong genes. Adding few environmental and social factors and we are not left with straight/homosexual division but rather with a spectrum of conditions from strictly straight to strictly homosecial, and huge variety inbetween.
To make the matter more complicated there are even asexual people, who don't feel any desire for sex with anyone, lol. Perhaps, I shouldn't laugh, but this is mind boggling dichotomy of human condition. Our human brain loves to compartmentalize everything for easier understanding, but this issue is way complicated for it. Try not to think groups but think spectrum, don't think biblical black and white but imagine graphs with genetic distances instead with people all over the graph. ("you" as a general reader).

Maleth
22-08-14, 08:51
These examples point to many causes of homosexuality. I mean there is a strong genetic (as one) component which can go wrong in many ways (assuming the straight man and woman is the goal of evolution). There are few sectors of brain that can get mixed in male/female orientation. There could be overproduction of hormones. There could be lack of correlated with them receptors on cells' walls. There could be methylation problem in DNA expressing wrong genes. Adding few environmental and social factors and we are not left with straight/homosexual division but rather with a spectrum of conditions from strictly straight to strictly homosecial, and huge variety inbetween.
To make the matter more complicated there are even asexual people, who don't feel any desire for sex with anyone, lol. Perhaps, I shouldn't laugh, but this is mind boggling dichotomy of human condition. Our human brain loves to compartmentalize everything for easier understanding, but this issue is way complicated for it. Try not to think groups but think spectrum, don't think biblical black and white but imagine graphs with genetic distances instead with people all over the graph. ("you" as a general reader).

Very good points LeBrok, but what about Scientists start dealing with the situation as instead of something 'going wrong' as what is nature intent for its work? Homosexuality is not like Cancer, or a debilitating human physical condition. Why don't people focus on the good side of homosexuals. They have great attributes to art design and fashion, and much more. Is it possible that the behavior is somewhat coherent for a society (as nature intended as also found in the animal kingdom) rather the dying black and white psyche but still very evident today?

LeBrok
22-08-14, 23:26
Very good points LeBrok, but what about Scientists start dealing with the situation as instead of something 'going wrong' as what is nature intent for its work? I think the argument can be made that the goal of every organism is to have offspring. In this case homosexuality can be viewed as evolutionary dead end, some sort of genetic affliction. However a different point can be made in context of whole human species. Humans are group animals therefore future of the whole group (a group viewed as one unit) is more important than future of one individual. After all we are all descendents of strongest groups. Number and quality of offspring can be a measure of success of entire group, regardless which individuals contributed genes. In this line of understanding people who can't have kids (homosexuals included) are contributing to the success of the group and its offspring, by paying taxes, producing goods or fostering orphans, and many other ways.
A parallel could be made to other social animals like ants. Regardless of a fact that most of them can't reproduce they exist for millions of years, they are very successful species. The genome of the whole group (viewed like one organism) is what matters at the end.
If someone thinks it is far fetched proposition, think again. If we go back 6 generation we ending up with 64 grandparents (64 different people) contributing to our DNA. If someone comes from small village all people in it are pretty much third cousins. It means that the entire genetic code is nicely mixed together, and with deep autosomal tests they all can be traced to one geographical location, that's how close genetically they are to each other. From village point of view it doesn't matter who in the village procreates, the kids will have pretty much same DNA anyway. Unless someone introduced mutations or a stranger settles in the village, but that's a different story.

This is how I see it in light of evolution and natural selection. Not necessarily what I feel it should be. ;) But that's life.



Homosexuality is not like Cancer, or a debilitating human physical condition. Why don't people focus on the good side of homosexuals. They have great attributes to art design and fashion, and much more. Is it possible that the behavior is somewhat coherent for a society (as nature intended as also found in the animal kingdom) rather the dying black and white psyche but still very evident today? All habits die slowly. When I look at young generation here in Canada, they are so open, tolerant, inclusive towards people of colour or different sexual orientation, or even foods and customs. This is how they were educated, in spirit that we are all Canadians, and equal people, all belong to one group.

The Gheg
25-08-14, 15:33
this is a very interesting theory indeed

RobertColumbia
23-07-15, 04:46
I have read some interesting topics on this forum about the link between low fetal testosterone levels and the increased chances of baby boys developing a female brain and becoming gay in adulthood.

I have a brother who is gay, and I was told that our mother really wanted to have a girl when she was pregnant with him. I have heard of a similar case in another family. Do you think that the mother's strong desires and expectations can truly influence her baby's hormones and brain development to turn him into a homosexual boy ? Has anybody heard of cases like this too ?

If this theory is actually true, I wonder if it would work for results other than sexuality or for desires other than gender. For example, if a mother really wanted to have a child who would become a basketball player, would the child be more likely to be drawn to team sports or perhaps even develop an aptitude for them?

Also, what exactly is the definition of a "female brain"? Every brain is different. Is there a specific structure in the brain that exists in "masculine" and "feminine" types? Also, what about heterosexual bronies, or gay bodybuilders, or others whose sexuality does not exactly match their non-sexual interests? Which one "wins out" and defines the gender type of the brain?

Ike
23-07-15, 09:13
Probably not true. It's not a condition to be caused. Some get pleasure smoking, others while in the gym, some feel pleasure while being whipped, some like to have group sex, or sex with same sex, or sex with objects, animals, or no sex at all, whatever. It's all in the persons head.