(OFFTOPIC from rise of PIEs in the steppes)

Malsori

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That is very rude. We don't suffer from anything, and if you ask anyone it is usually Albanians that have odd theories.

Many people on this forum and in others have weird theories not just Albanians. I have read some of the posts made by you guys and that supposed Albanian kamani and i must say :useless:. And i am quite tired of you Bosniaks and your complexes with Illyrians. I have seen of how you guys chimp and keep repeating as parrots this Illyrian thing.

Yes I am aware of the Cucuteni-Trypillia, and you should have been more specific regarding "Ukraine" having more subclades than the West Balkans. The Cucuteni-Trypillia was much more concentrated in Romania and Moldova, rather than Ukraine. Did Slavs which passed by this area pick up a lot of people from that area? Probably. Did some of the haplogroup I in the West Balkans come with these Slavs? Probably. But to say that all of it came with them, and that it is a "Slavic" marker is ridiculous. The Cucuteni-Trypillia people were likely a mix of paleolithic people who took up farming and new neolithic migrants from the near east. Their phenotype was similar to that of other people in the Balkans.

My point is that
I2a2b(Din) did not come from a far-flung steppe, it has always been in the Balkans. The I haplogroup diversity further justifies my claims, doesn't hurt them. And you aren't at all adressing the differences between South Slavs and other Slavs in terms of appearance.


I am tired of repeating myself. I2a2-Din is 2500 years old according to TMCRA estimates. Most of it came with Slavic invasions. End of point. No need to discuss it further.

I already wrote that R1a wasn't exclusively Slavic, but I explained that it is nonetheless most often found in Slavic populations.

High percentages of R1a are also found among Iranic(Pashtuns and Tajiks) and Indian populations.
 
We aren't genetically Slavic:
Read this and learn something. You are just trying to have a monopoly on pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans. Are you even aware that only 50% of Albania was Albanian when the country was first founded?

High percentages of R1a are also found among Iranic(Pashtuns and Tajiks) and Indian populations.

I said "MOST" often. And we are talking about Europe specifically, the historic changes which led to genetic differences are different in Europe than in a different setting. You are picking at minor things while ignoring the big picture.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26820-Autosomal-map-East-European-admixture-(from-Dodecad)
 
We aren't genetically Slavic:
Read this and learn something. You are just trying to have a monopoly on pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans. Are you even aware that only 50% of Albania was Albanian when the country was first founded?

You are the least person from which i should learn something. You need to cure your complexes. It is you ex-Yugoslavians who are trying to have a monopoly over Balkan pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans. We happen to speak non-Slavic language and lack Slavic genes(it is in our right to claim our ancestors but we cannot disclaim that other South Slavs do have considerable pre Balkan ancestry but you Bosnians and Croats have lesser than the other Balkan Slavs). Croatians/Bosnians do have considerable Slavic genes but you Bosnians tend to have complexes having Slavic ancestry. You dislike your own self lol.


I said "MOST" often. And we are talking about Europe specifically, the historic changes which led to genetic differences are different in Europe than in a different setting. You are picking at minor things while ignoring the big picture.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26820-Autosomal-map-East-European-admixture-(from-Dodecad)

Your post is of no relevance. I merely stated that Iranics do carry at high percentages. And from the Slavs the highest R1a1a percentages carry Poles with 50-56% which means the other 50-44% are of non R1a lineages. You simply need to get over it that I2a2-Din is a result of South Slavic migrations.
 
Your post is of no relevance. I merely stated that Iranics do carry at high percentages. And from the Slavs the highest R1a1a percentages carry Poles with 50-56% which means the other 50-44% are of non R1a lineages. You simply need to get over it that I2a2-Din is a result of South Slavic migrations.

My point of linking that is to show that we are autosomally very different from other "Slavs". We aren't genetically Slavic, only culturally and linguistically.

It is you ex-Yugoslavians who are trying to have a monopoly over Balkan pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans.

I never said we are the sole descendants of non-Slavic people in the Balkans, those are your words not mine. I am merely saying that we are genetically not Slavic, and this is a fact.

Croatians/Bosnians do have considerable Slavic genes but you Bosnians tend to have complexes having Slavic ancestry. You dislike your own self lol.

Haplogroups are highly unreliable, it is the autosomal DNA that matters the most, and if you cared to click the link I sent you, you would see that we are autosomally very different from East and West Slavs.
 
Herzegovina, which has the highest frequency of haplogroup I in the balkans, is only 10-15% East European autosomally. 10-15% is also how Eastern European Albania is. You are just as Slavic as I am buddy. My family hails from Stolac, which has been inhabited thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs. The dominant phenotype is that of a tall, dark, and long-faced people; not a Slavic look at all. The most famous Illyrian and perhaps best preserved settlement, Daorson, is on the outskirts of Stolac. We also have a paleolithic cave, Badanj cave.
 
Herzegovina, which has the highest frequency of haplogroup I in the balkans, is only 10-15% East European autosomally. 10-15% is also how Eastern European Albania is. You are just as Slavic as I am buddy. My family hails from Stolac, which has been inhabited thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs. The dominant phenotype is that of a tall, dark, and long-faced people; not a Slavic look at all. The most famous Illyrian and perhaps best preserved settlement, Daorson, is on the outskirts of Stolac. We also have a paleolithic cave, Badanj cave.

Alright, my assumption was quite right. You do suffer from inferiority complexes of being Slavic. You don't have 10-15% Baltic since even Bulgarians and Macedonians have something around 30-35%. And East-European autosomal component doesn't equal Slavic. A determinant factor of what ancestry you have are IBD segments sharing values. According to recent study South Slavs do share segments with Poland during the period of Slavic migrations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07/fastibd-over-2257-europeans.html

So, you better cool down with your pretensions and accept that you do have Slavic ancestry in par besides the Paleo-Balkan one.

My point of linking that is to show that we are autosomally very different from other "Slavs". We aren't genetically Slavic, only culturally and linguistically.



I never said we are the sole descendants of non-Slavic people in the Balkans, those are your words not mine. I am merely saying that we are genetically not Slavic, and this is a fact.



Haplogroups are highly unreliable, it is the autosomal DNA that matters the most, and if you cared to click the link I sent you, you would see that we are autosomally very different from East and West Slavs.

Your link is general map created by Maciamo about Dodecad project. In fact, that project contain no Bosnian or Albanian and contain very few Balkan samples.

p.s

One Finn once mentioned that Slavs suffer from the complex of not being able to identify themself with ancient populations. That is why Northern Slavs want to claim Sarmatians/Scythians moreso than Iranics and Southern Slavs want to be more Illyrian than Albanians themself. It is quite pathetic.
 
Some speculation:
I2a1b-Din can be slavic, iranian (antic), balkanic or central european, and many of these possibilities may be true at once. The Antes were probably iranic, but became very important for Slavic ethongenesis. Ancient historians mentioned that there was only marginal cultural differences between the Antes and Slavs. Antes lived in Ukraine and many balkan slavs connect their ethnos to iranian founders. The user 'How yes no' also mentioned central european history of those supposedly iranian white serbs - the sorbs in easternmost Germany. While the majority of today sorbs are R1a and are phenotypically undistinguishable from regular Germans or Poles, a minority of them look like very typical Bulgarians or Serbs, and Moravia (very close to Sorbia) contains considerable pockets of I2a1b. But it is still not clear where the absolute origin of Balkanic I2a1b was. There is merely a I2a1b triangle visible between Ukraine, Moravia and Balkans. Don't know if it's important, but dinaric phenotype is common in eastern Ukraine.
 
Alright, my assumption was quite right. You do suffer from inferiority complexes of being Slavic. You don't have 10-15% Baltic since even Bulgarians and Macedonians have something around 30-35%. And East-European autosomal component doesn't equal Slavic. A determinant factor of what ancestry you have are IBD segments sharing values. According to recent study South Slavs do share segments with Poland during the period of Slavic migrations.

It is convenient for you to label it "Baltic", even though it peaks in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Russia) and only ONE Baltic country: Lithuania. Do you see how much lower it is in Latvia and Estonia? Twisting everything to serve your ego merely defeats you. I think you apply the one-drop rule to Slavs. If I am a Slav, so are you brother.
 
Herzegovina, which has the highest frequency of haplogroup I in the balkans, is only 10-15% East European autosomally. 10-15% is also how Eastern European Albania is. You are just as Slavic as I am buddy. My family hails from Stolac, which has been inhabited thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs. The dominant phenotype is that of a tall, dark, and long-faced people; not a Slavic look at all. The most famous Illyrian and perhaps best preserved settlement, Daorson, is on the outskirts of Stolac. We also have a paleolithic cave, Badanj cave.

That is because I2a Din in Bosna and Serbia Fyrom enter from Central Europe, while in Romania and Bulgaria from Ucraine, together with Bulgars,

what you must consider is that when Slavs enter from Central Europe, the place was inhabited, no Parthenogenesis ever done (except religions) So Bosnia is a mix of older pre-Slavic + Slavic,
the case of Illyrians in Bosnia, is another case, Bosna and Croatia were in Illyricum but not Illyrians,
Illyricum was a province that had Illyrians and non Illyrians,
Plini describes it better, dividing it to Illyricum and Illyria proprie.
 
That is because I2a Din in Bosna and Serbia Fyrom enter from Central Europe, while in Romania and Bulgaria from Ucraine, together with Bulgars,

what you must consider is that when Slavs enter from Central Europe, the place was inhabited, no Parthenogenesis ever done (except religions) So Bosnia is a mix of older pre-Slavic + Slavic,
the case of Illyrians in Bosnia, is another case, Bosna and Croatia were in Illyricum but not Illyrians,
Illyricum was a province that had Illyrians and non Illyrians,
Plini describes it better, dividing it to Illyricum and Illyria proprie.

I know, I was just using it as an example to show that there was a old pre-Slavic population there (the cave, ruins, etc). He seems to think that Bosnians look like Belarussians or something. He himself is in denial though, since most of Kosovo wasn't even Albanian before. Heck even Albania wasn't mostly Albanian just 100 years ago.
 
It is convenient for you to label it "Baltic", even though it peaks in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Russia) and only ONE Baltic country: Lithuania. Do you see how much lower it is in Latvia and Estonia? Twisting everything to serve your ego merely defeats you. I think you apply the one-drop rule to Slavs. If I am a Slav, so are you brother.

You are the one who has ego. Latvia and Estonia have low Baltic/East-European? *****And no, you are Slav and i am Albanian. You speak Slavic and you have much more Slavic genes than me.

I know, I was just using it as an example to show that there was a old pre-Slavic population there (the cave, ruins, etc). He seems to think that Bosnians look like Belarussians or something. He himself is in denial though, since most of Kosovo wasn't even Albanian before. Heck even Albania wasn't mostly Albanian just 100 years ago.

****** You showed cave ruins to prove me there was pre-Slavic population? *******As if we didn't know that. We are talking about datas not look.

And between the Kosovo issue is beyond the point. I quoted a scientific study that Kosovars are different from South Slavs for obvious reasons. We don't have Slavic admixture. Get over your complexes about Illyrianism.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Look at the aDNA figures provided by Eurogenes. Haplogroups only provide information with respect to ancient migration patterns.
 
You are the one who has ego. Latvia and Estonia have low Baltic/East-European? You must be in drugs since they do have it in high percentage lol. And no, you are Slav and i am Albanian. You speak Slavic and you have much more Slavic genes than me.

Lower than the core Slavic parts of Belarus, Russia, and Poland. You only see what you want to see. Any visitor to ex-Yugoslavia can clearly see we look far different from other "Slavs". They are much more likely to have light hair/eyes than us, they are shorter than us usually, our faces aren't round they are long, we are much hairier than them, etc.

Bosnia better hire you as a comedian. You showed cave ruins to prove me there was pre-Slavic population? haha as if we didn't know that. And between the Kosovo issue is beyond the point. I quoted a scientifc study that Kosovars are different from South Slavs for obvious reasons. We don't have Slavic admixture. Get over your complexes about Illyrianism.

It is the only paleolithic cave in all the balkans
http://bp1.blogger.com/_mYc94PComOo...320/Upper_Paleolihic_Art_in_Europe-740632.gif

I don't have an inferiority complex, I just don't look Slavic at all why should I identify as such? Should a Han Chinese person consider themselves Nigerian if they are only slightly Nigerian but look completely Han Chinese? That is what you are implying I should do.
 
Lower than the core Slavic parts of Belarus, Russia, and Poland. You only see what you want to see. Any visitor to ex-Yugoslavia can clearly see we look far different from other "Slavs". They are much more likely to have light hair/eyes than us, they are shorter than us usually, our faces aren't round they are long, we are much hairier than them, etc.

You are just making things up. Trust me dude. I have seen actual Dodecad and Eurogenes results. There is only slight difference about the East-European/Baltic among Estonias, Russians and Latvians.

It is the only paleolithic cave in all the balkans
http://bp1.blogger.com/_mYc94PComOo...320/Upper_Paleolihic_Art_in_Europe-740632.gif

I don't have an inferiority complex, I just don't look Slavic at all why should I identify as such? Should a Han Chinese person consider themselves Nigerian if they are only slightly Nigerian but look completely Han Chinese? That is what you are implying I should do.

Out of the point. All of Europeans share genes between eachother moreso than they share with non-Europeans. Except for perhaps Southern Greeks, Cypriots, Sicilians etc etc. So the Han Chinese and Nigerian example is totally invalid.And you are not slightly Slavic on average especially you Bosnians and Croats. Even Northern Greeks have some slight Slavic admixture according to the IBD sharing study i quoted.
 
Out of the point. All of Europeans share genes between eachother moreso than they share with non-Europeans. Except for perhaps Southern Greeks, Cypriots, Sicilians etc etc. So the Han Chinese and Nigerian example is totally invalid.And you are not slightly Slavic on average especially you Bosnians and Croats. Even Northern Greeks have some slight Slavic admixture according to the IBD sharing study i quoted.

Are you implying that the Dinaric phenotype is Slavic? Really? Croats are more Slavic in the northern Slavonian plain, but along the Adriatic sea they look Dinaric. Bosnians in Herzegovina look Dinaric, while those in the far Northern parts are much more often light-haired. There is a clear pattern, in the Northern parts where r1a and r1b are common, people are lighter. In the southern haplogroup I areas they are darker and taller.
 
If I2a-Din was Illyrian then it would be found all over celtic descendants (Germany, England, France, Spain). Illyrian and celtic tribes shared the land around north Croatia. Instead, what do the balkans and celts have in common? R1b. Trace R1b M269, that's where you will find the illyrians.
 
If I2a-Din was Illyrian then it would be found all over celtic descendants (Germany, England, France, Spain). Illyrian and celtic tribes shared the land around north Croatia. Instead, what do the balkans and celts have in common? R1b. Trace R1b M269, that's where you will find the illyrians.

Just because they shared land in one small area, doesn't mean they did elsewhere.
 
Lower than the core Slavic parts of Belarus, Russia, and Poland. You only see what you want to see. Any visitor to ex-Yugoslavia can clearly see we look far different from other "Slavs". They are much more likely to have light hair/eyes than us, they are shorter than us usually, our faces aren't round they are long, we are much hairier than them, etc.

It is the only paleolithic cave in all the balkans
http://bp1.blogger.com/_mYc94PComOo...320/Upper_Paleolihic_Art_in_Europe-740632.gif

I don't have an inferiority complex, I just don't look Slavic at all why should I identify as such? Should a Han Chinese person consider themselves Nigerian if they are only slightly Nigerian but look completely Han Chinese? That is what you are implying I should do.


South Slavs have nothing to do with North East Slavs,
North East Slavs have Uraloid admixture

South Slavs are even different among them,
Dinaric are tottaly different for example from Stara Planina and Hemos Mt.
 
Sharing Croatia since 1000 BC, would mean a lot of mixing until today. Instead there is little I2a - Din, west and north of ex-jugoslavia.
But honestly, there is nothing wrong with being slavic. Europe is becoming 1 nation.
 

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