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Malsori
07-01-13, 17:24
That is very rude. We don't suffer from anything, and if you ask anyone it is usually Albanians that have odd theories.

Many people on this forum and in others have weird theories not just Albanians. I have read some of the posts made by you guys and that supposed Albanian kamani and i must say :useless:. And i am quite tired of you Bosniaks and your complexes with Illyrians. I have seen of how you guys chimp and keep repeating as parrots this Illyrian thing.



Yes I am aware of the Cucuteni-Trypillia, and you should have been more specific regarding "Ukraine" having more subclades than the West Balkans. The Cucuteni-Trypillia was much more concentrated in Romania and Moldova, rather than Ukraine. Did Slavs which passed by this area pick up a lot of people from that area? Probably. Did some of the haplogroup I in the West Balkans come with these Slavs? Probably. But to say that all of it came with them, and that it is a "Slavic" marker is ridiculous. The Cucuteni-Trypillia people were likely a mix of paleolithic people who took up farming and new neolithic migrants from the near east. Their phenotype was similar to that of other people in the Balkans.

My point is that I2a2b(Din) did not come from a far-flung steppe, it has always been in the Balkans. The I haplogroup diversity further justifies my claims, doesn't hurt them. And you aren't at all adressing the differences between South Slavs and other Slavs in terms of appearance.


I am tired of repeating myself. I2a2-Din is 2500 years old according to TMCRA estimates. Most of it came with Slavic invasions. End of point. No need to discuss it further.


I already wrote that R1a wasn't exclusively Slavic, but I explained that it is nonetheless most often found in Slavic populations.

High percentages of R1a are also found among Iranic(Pashtuns and Tajiks) and Indian populations.

Yetos
07-01-13, 17:27
the case of I2a - DIn is discussed here,

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans

the one who has more data or new ideas plz go that thread,

this is thread about where PIE were spoken,

plz guys, we don't have to chew again and again same gum.

Generally R1a is not a Slavic marker, but in south Slavs I2a-din feets more as possible marker.

Templar
07-01-13, 17:31
We aren't genetically Slavic:
Read this and learn something. You are just trying to have a monopoly on pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans. Are you even aware that only 50% of Albania was Albanian when the country was first founded?


High percentages of R1a are also found among Iranic(Pashtuns and Tajiks) and Indian populations.

I said "MOST" often. And we are talking about Europe specifically, the historic changes which led to genetic differences are different in Europe than in a different setting. You are picking at minor things while ignoring the big picture.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26820-Autosomal-map-East-European-admixture-(from-Dodecad)

Malsori
07-01-13, 17:56
We aren't genetically Slavic:
Read this and learn something. You are just trying to have a monopoly on pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans. Are you even aware that only 50% of Albania was Albanian when the country was first founded?

You are the least person from which i should learn something. You need to cure your complexes. It is you ex-Yugoslavians who are trying to have a monopoly over Balkan pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans. We happen to speak non-Slavic language and lack Slavic genes(it is in our right to claim our ancestors but we cannot disclaim that other South Slavs do have considerable pre Balkan ancestry but you Bosnians and Croats have lesser than the other Balkan Slavs). Croatians/Bosnians do have considerable Slavic genes but you Bosnians tend to have complexes having Slavic ancestry. You dislike your own self lol.



I said "MOST" often. And we are talking about Europe specifically, the historic changes which led to genetic differences are different in Europe than in a different setting. You are picking at minor things while ignoring the big picture.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26820-Autosomal-map-East-European-admixture-(from-Dodecad)

Your post is of no relevance. I merely stated that Iranics do carry at high percentages. And from the Slavs the highest R1a1a percentages carry Poles with 50-56% which means the other 50-44% are of non R1a lineages. You simply need to get over it that I2a2-Din is a result of South Slavic migrations.

Templar
07-01-13, 18:10
Your post is of no relevance. I merely stated that Iranics do carry at high percentages. And from the Slavs the highest R1a1a percentages carry Poles with 50-56% which means the other 50-44% are of non R1a lineages. You simply need to get over it that I2a2-Din is a result of South Slavic migrations.

My point of linking that is to show that we are autosomally very different from other "Slavs". We aren't genetically Slavic, only culturally and linguistically.


It is you ex-Yugoslavians who are trying to have a monopoly over Balkan pre-Slavic inheritance in the Balkans.

I never said we are the sole descendants of non-Slavic people in the Balkans, those are your words not mine. I am merely saying that we are genetically not Slavic, and this is a fact.


Croatians/Bosnians do have considerable Slavic genes but you Bosnians tend to have complexes having Slavic ancestry. You dislike your own self lol.

Haplogroups are highly unreliable, it is the autosomal DNA that matters the most, and if you cared to click the link I sent you, you would see that we are autosomally very different from East and West Slavs.

Templar
07-01-13, 18:15
Herzegovina, which has the highest frequency of haplogroup I in the balkans, is only 10-15% East European autosomally. 10-15% is also how Eastern European Albania is. You are just as Slavic as I am buddy. My family hails from Stolac, which has been inhabited thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs. The dominant phenotype is that of a tall, dark, and long-faced people; not a Slavic look at all. The most famous Illyrian and perhaps best preserved settlement, Daorson, is on the outskirts of Stolac. We also have a paleolithic cave, Badanj cave.

Malsori
07-01-13, 18:28
Herzegovina, which has the highest frequency of haplogroup I in the balkans, is only 10-15% East European autosomally. 10-15% is also how Eastern European Albania is. You are just as Slavic as I am buddy. My family hails from Stolac, which has been inhabited thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs. The dominant phenotype is that of a tall, dark, and long-faced people; not a Slavic look at all. The most famous Illyrian and perhaps best preserved settlement, Daorson, is on the outskirts of Stolac. We also have a paleolithic cave, Badanj cave.

Alright, my assumption was quite right. You do suffer from inferiority complexes of being Slavic. You don't have 10-15% Baltic since even Bulgarians and Macedonians have something around 30-35%. And East-European autosomal component doesn't equal Slavic. A determinant factor of what ancestry you have are IBD segments sharing values. According to recent study South Slavs do share segments with Poland during the period of Slavic migrations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07/fastibd-over-2257-europeans.html

So, you better cool down with your pretensions and accept that you do have Slavic ancestry in par besides the Paleo-Balkan one.


My point of linking that is to show that we are autosomally very different from other "Slavs". We aren't genetically Slavic, only culturally and linguistically.



I never said we are the sole descendants of non-Slavic people in the Balkans, those are your words not mine. I am merely saying that we are genetically not Slavic, and this is a fact.



Haplogroups are highly unreliable, it is the autosomal DNA that matters the most, and if you cared to click the link I sent you, you would see that we are autosomally very different from East and West Slavs.

Your link is general map created by Maciamo about Dodecad project. In fact, that project contain no Bosnian or Albanian and contain very few Balkan samples.

p.s

One Finn once mentioned that Slavs suffer from the complex of not being able to identify themself with ancient populations. That is why Northern Slavs want to claim Sarmatians/Scythians moreso than Iranics and Southern Slavs want to be more Illyrian than Albanians themself. It is quite pathetic.

ElHorsto
07-01-13, 18:36
Some speculation:
I2a1b-Din can be slavic, iranian (antic), balkanic or central european, and many of these possibilities may be true at once. The Antes were probably iranic, but became very important for Slavic ethongenesis. Ancient historians mentioned that there was only marginal cultural differences between the Antes and Slavs. Antes lived in Ukraine and many balkan slavs connect their ethnos to iranian founders. The user 'How yes no' also mentioned central european history of those supposedly iranian white serbs - the sorbs in easternmost Germany. While the majority of today sorbs are R1a and are phenotypically undistinguishable from regular Germans or Poles, a minority of them look like very typical Bulgarians or Serbs, and Moravia (very close to Sorbia) contains considerable pockets of I2a1b. But it is still not clear where the absolute origin of Balkanic I2a1b was. There is merely a I2a1b triangle visible between Ukraine, Moravia and Balkans. Don't know if it's important, but dinaric phenotype is common in eastern Ukraine.

Templar
07-01-13, 18:36
Alright, my assumption was quite right. You do suffer from inferiority complexes of being Slavic. You don't have 10-15% Baltic since even Bulgarians and Macedonians have something around 30-35%. And East-European autosomal component doesn't equal Slavic. A determinant factor of what ancestry you have are IBD segments sharing values. According to recent study South Slavs do share segments with Poland during the period of Slavic migrations.

It is convenient for you to label it "Baltic", even though it peaks in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Russia) and only ONE Baltic country: Lithuania. Do you see how much lower it is in Latvia and Estonia? Twisting everything to serve your ego merely defeats you. I think you apply the one-drop rule to Slavs. If I am a Slav, so are you brother.

Yetos
07-01-13, 18:38
Herzegovina, which has the highest frequency of haplogroup I in the balkans, is only 10-15% East European autosomally. 10-15% is also how Eastern European Albania is. You are just as Slavic as I am buddy. My family hails from Stolac, which has been inhabited thousands of years before the arrival of Slavs. The dominant phenotype is that of a tall, dark, and long-faced people; not a Slavic look at all. The most famous Illyrian and perhaps best preserved settlement, Daorson, is on the outskirts of Stolac. We also have a paleolithic cave, Badanj cave.

That is because I2a Din in Bosna and Serbia Fyrom enter from Central Europe, while in Romania and Bulgaria from Ucraine, together with Bulgars,

what you must consider is that when Slavs enter from Central Europe, the place was inhabited, no Parthenogenesis ever done (except religions) So Bosnia is a mix of older pre-Slavic + Slavic,
the case of Illyrians in Bosnia, is another case, Bosna and Croatia were in Illyricum but not Illyrians,
Illyricum was a province that had Illyrians and non Illyrians,
Plini describes it better, dividing it to Illyricum and Illyria proprie.

Templar
07-01-13, 18:40
That is because I2a Din in Bosna and Serbia Fyrom enter from Central Europe, while in Romania and Bulgaria from Ucraine, together with Bulgars,

what you must consider is that when Slavs enter from Central Europe, the place was inhabited, no Parthenogenesis ever done (except religions) So Bosnia is a mix of older pre-Slavic + Slavic,
the case of Illyrians in Bosnia, is another case, Bosna and Croatia were in Illyricum but not Illyrians,
Illyricum was a province that had Illyrians and non Illyrians,
Plini describes it better, dividing it to Illyricum and Illyria proprie.

I know, I was just using it as an example to show that there was a old pre-Slavic population there (the cave, ruins, etc). He seems to think that Bosnians look like Belarussians or something. He himself is in denial though, since most of Kosovo wasn't even Albanian before. Heck even Albania wasn't mostly Albanian just 100 years ago.

Malsori
07-01-13, 18:48
It is convenient for you to label it "Baltic", even though it peaks in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Russia) and only ONE Baltic country: Lithuania. Do you see how much lower it is in Latvia and Estonia? Twisting everything to serve your ego merely defeats you. I think you apply the one-drop rule to Slavs. If I am a Slav, so are you brother.

You are the one who has ego. Latvia and Estonia have low Baltic/East-European? *****And no, you are Slav and i am Albanian. You speak Slavic and you have much more Slavic genes than me.


I know, I was just using it as an example to show that there was a old pre-Slavic population there (the cave, ruins, etc). He seems to think that Bosnians look like Belarussians or something. He himself is in denial though, since most of Kosovo wasn't even Albanian before. Heck even Albania wasn't mostly Albanian just 100 years ago.

****** You showed cave ruins to prove me there was pre-Slavic population? *******As if we didn't know that. We are talking about datas not look.

And between the Kosovo issue is beyond the point. I quoted a scientific study that Kosovars are different from South Slavs for obvious reasons. We don't have Slavic admixture. Get over your complexes about Illyrianism.

Cambrius (The Red)
07-01-13, 18:52
Look at the aDNA figures provided by Eurogenes. Haplogroups only provide information with respect to ancient migration patterns.

Templar
07-01-13, 18:58
You are the one who has ego. Latvia and Estonia have low Baltic/East-European? You must be in drugs since they do have it in high percentage lol. And no, you are Slav and i am Albanian. You speak Slavic and you have much more Slavic genes than me.

Lower than the core Slavic parts of Belarus, Russia, and Poland. You only see what you want to see. Any visitor to ex-Yugoslavia can clearly see we look far different from other "Slavs". They are much more likely to have light hair/eyes than us, they are shorter than us usually, our faces aren't round they are long, we are much hairier than them, etc.


Bosnia better hire you as a comedian. You showed cave ruins to prove me there was pre-Slavic population? haha as if we didn't know that. And between the Kosovo issue is beyond the point. I quoted a scientifc study that Kosovars are different from South Slavs for obvious reasons. We don't have Slavic admixture. Get over your complexes about Illyrianism.

It is the only paleolithic cave in all the balkans
http://bp1.blogger.com/_mYc94PComOo/R9wflFzfT-I/AAAAAAAAAIk/TsJxeK_qH7Q/s320/Upper_Paleolihic_Art_in_Europe-740632.gif

I don't have an inferiority complex, I just don't look Slavic at all why should I identify as such? Should a Han Chinese person consider themselves Nigerian if they are only slightly Nigerian but look completely Han Chinese? That is what you are implying I should do.

Malsori
07-01-13, 19:07
Lower than the core Slavic parts of Belarus, Russia, and Poland. You only see what you want to see. Any visitor to ex-Yugoslavia can clearly see we look far different from other "Slavs". They are much more likely to have light hair/eyes than us, they are shorter than us usually, our faces aren't round they are long, we are much hairier than them, etc.

You are just making things up. Trust me dude. I have seen actual Dodecad and Eurogenes results. There is only slight difference about the East-European/Baltic among Estonias, Russians and Latvians.


It is the only paleolithic cave in all the balkans
http://bp1.blogger.com/_mYc94PComOo/R9wflFzfT-I/AAAAAAAAAIk/TsJxeK_qH7Q/s320/Upper_Paleolihic_Art_in_Europe-740632.gif

I don't have an inferiority complex, I just don't look Slavic at all why should I identify as such? Should a Han Chinese person consider themselves Nigerian if they are only slightly Nigerian but look completely Han Chinese? That is what you are implying I should do.

Out of the point. All of Europeans share genes between eachother moreso than they share with non-Europeans. Except for perhaps Southern Greeks, Cypriots, Sicilians etc etc. So the Han Chinese and Nigerian example is totally invalid.And you are not slightly Slavic on average especially you Bosnians and Croats. Even Northern Greeks have some slight Slavic admixture according to the IBD sharing study i quoted.

Templar
07-01-13, 19:18
Out of the point. All of Europeans share genes between eachother moreso than they share with non-Europeans. Except for perhaps Southern Greeks, Cypriots, Sicilians etc etc. So the Han Chinese and Nigerian example is totally invalid.And you are not slightly Slavic on average especially you Bosnians and Croats. Even Northern Greeks have some slight Slavic admixture according to the IBD sharing study i quoted.

Are you implying that the Dinaric phenotype is Slavic? Really? Croats are more Slavic in the northern Slavonian plain, but along the Adriatic sea they look Dinaric. Bosnians in Herzegovina look Dinaric, while those in the far Northern parts are much more often light-haired. There is a clear pattern, in the Northern parts where r1a and r1b are common, people are lighter. In the southern haplogroup I areas they are darker and taller.

kamani
07-01-13, 20:56
If I2a-Din was Illyrian then it would be found all over celtic descendants (Germany, England, France, Spain). Illyrian and celtic tribes shared the land around north Croatia. Instead, what do the balkans and celts have in common? R1b. Trace R1b M269, that's where you will find the illyrians.

Templar
07-01-13, 21:08
If I2a-Din was Illyrian then it would be found all over celtic descendants (Germany, England, France, Spain). Illyrian and celtic tribes shared the land around north Croatia. Instead, what do the balkans and celts have in common? R1b. Trace R1b M269, that's where you will find the illyrians.

Just because they shared land in one small area, doesn't mean they did elsewhere.

Yetos
07-01-13, 21:52
Lower than the core Slavic parts of Belarus, Russia, and Poland. You only see what you want to see. Any visitor to ex-Yugoslavia can clearly see we look far different from other "Slavs". They are much more likely to have light hair/eyes than us, they are shorter than us usually, our faces aren't round they are long, we are much hairier than them, etc.

It is the only paleolithic cave in all the balkans
http://bp1.blogger.com/_mYc94PComOo/R9wflFzfT-I/AAAAAAAAAIk/TsJxeK_qH7Q/s320/Upper_Paleolihic_Art_in_Europe-740632.gif

I don't have an inferiority complex, I just don't look Slavic at all why should I identify as such? Should a Han Chinese person consider themselves Nigerian if they are only slightly Nigerian but look completely Han Chinese? That is what you are implying I should do.


South Slavs have nothing to do with North East Slavs,
North East Slavs have Uraloid admixture

South Slavs are even different among them,
Dinaric are tottaly different for example from Stara Planina and Hemos Mt.

kamani
07-01-13, 21:55
Sharing Croatia since 1000 BC, would mean a lot of mixing until today. Instead there is little I2a - Din, west and north of ex-jugoslavia.
But honestly, there is nothing wrong with being slavic. Europe is becoming 1 nation.

Yetos
07-01-13, 21:56
If I2a-Din was Illyrian then it would be found all over celtic descendants (Germany, England, France, Spain). Illyrian and celtic tribes shared the land around north Croatia. Instead, what do the balkans and celts have in common? R1b. Trace R1b M269, that's where you will find the illyrians.

Not only, J2 is also in areas of Gauls having good %, although still J2 is a mystery, at least for me.

nordicwarrior
08-01-13, 00:17
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?

On a side note-- I looked into the Dacian tribe and it looks to me like they were vast majority haplogroup I, including the leadership. All of the statue's that I found (incredible art work back then) showed heavily bearded, broader faced, large framed warrior types. They seemed fairly tall with wavy hair.

nordicwarrior
08-01-13, 00:19
They reminded me off vikings almost.

Templar
08-01-13, 00:24
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?

Yes, yet some people are trying to propagate the view that some Slavic tribes had haplogroup I majorities, which doesn't make any sense. When the R1a were spreading from the East, they were completely destroying the haplogroup I hunter-gatherers left and right. The only places where Cro-Magnons could have survived would have been either: a)isolated locations (such as Scandinavia) or b) places where they acquired farming technology which would have bolstered their numbers

nordicwarrior
08-01-13, 00:26
"You simply need to get over it that I2a2-Din is a result of South Slavic migrations."

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around how that could possibly be a true statement. Please explain more fully how you arrived at that theory.

nordicwarrior
08-01-13, 00:33
I totally agree Templar.

The only thing I've noticed about I and R1a is that at some point, haplogroup I seems to have "flipped" the power structure. Maybe it's because they learned warfare techniques (horse riding, bronze weaponry, etc.) from R1a and were physically better fighters (size advantages, more able to function in climate and surroundings--evolved in these lands for thousands of years). I don't think Dacian were ever a large percentage of R1a though.

Templar
08-01-13, 00:37
I totally agree Templar.

The only thing I've noticed about I and R1a is that at some point, haplogroup I seems to have "flipped" the power structure. Maybe it's because they learned warfare techniques (horse riding, bronze weaponry, etc.) from R1a and were physically better fighters (size advantages, more able to function in climate and surroundings--evolved in these lands for thousands of years). I don't think Dacian were ever a large percentage of R1a though.

It is funny that you should mention that. I read a small part of some 19th century book (only part available for free) and it mentioned how the arrival of Alpine-skulled people in Southern Germany coincided with the arrival of Indo-Europeans and Bronze weapons. But then he goes on to say that Nordic people then acquired that technology and used it against them, and eventually controlled a majority of Germany (and even Germanized many of these round-skulled people). I tried finding which book it was, and I even searched my history tab, but I couldn't find it.

Yetos
08-01-13, 00:46
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?

On a side note-- I looked into the Dacian tribe and it looks to me like they were vast majority haplogroup I, including the leadership. All of the statue's that I found (incredible art work back then) showed heavily bearded, broader faced, large framed warrior types. They seemed fairly tall with wavy hair.

yes that was my mistake too. I believed that Thracians were I2 Hg,

yes R1a is not a Slavic, although if you have R1a you have big chance to be Slav

Yetos
08-01-13, 00:51
Guys plz stop this discussion here,

Go read http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans

and post your arguements there,

PLZ

the thread is not close,

WHY you use a thread of where IE language was spoken to find HG markers?

nordicwarrior
08-01-13, 01:00
You're right, sorry Yetos.

Templar
08-01-13, 01:00
Guys plz stop this discussion here,

Go read http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans

and post your arguements there,

PLZ

the thread is not close,

WHY you use a thread of where IE language was spoken to find HG markers?

Don't worry I did just that. Sorry about the inconvenience.

ElHorsto
08-01-13, 01:00
I'm confused...R1a isn't the majority haplogroup of the Slavs?


Truth is that it is still an unsanswered question, as is the origin of the slavs in general. While slavs in the north mostly have R1a, in the balkans they seem to have much more I2a1b instead, while I2a1b is also present to a lesser extent among slavs in the north. On the other hand, in the north it seems more exclusively confined to slavic nations, whereas in the balkans it is frequent also in Romanians, Vlachs and some Albanians (all non-slavic peoples). At the same time, I2a1b closest brother is in British Isles and I2a1b older variant are found in east-central europe. Autosomally, north slavs are 3/4 North europeans, whereas south slavs are only approx. 1/3 North Europeans. Quite confusing situation.

EDIT: Just saw Yetos' remark too late that this is offtopic here, sorry.

ElHorsto
08-01-13, 01:05
you are right

zanipolo
08-01-13, 08:42
you are right

this to me is the original ancient slav people ( not slavic )

Chernoles culture : The pre-Proto-Slavs were the bearers of the Chernoles culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoles_culture) (750–200 BCE) of northern Ukraine, and later the Zarubintsy culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture) (3rd century BCE to 1st century CE).

They where overrun by the scythians and antes and merged with them.

Yetos
08-01-13, 15:12
this to me is the original ancient slav people ( not slavic )

Chernoles culture : The pre-Proto-Slavs were the bearers of the Chernoles culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoles_culture) (750–200 BCE) of northern Ukraine, and later the Zarubintsy culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture) (3rd century BCE to 1st century CE).

They where overrun by the scythians and antes and merged with them.

hmm

so closer to Baltic than Scythians or closer to Scythians?

my personal believes goes also there and more East, either to χαλυβες land either south of Greater Scythia, land of queen Tomaris

the 'white Serbia' of how yes no I think is a second home. if there was a white serbia then a yellow Serbia should exist

MOESAN
12-01-13, 21:18
Truth is that it is still an unsanswered question, as is the origin of the slavs in general. While slavs in the north mostly have R1a, in the balkans they seem to have much more I2a1b instead, while I2a1b is also present to a lesser extent among slavs in the north. On the other hand, in the north it seems more exclusively confined to slavic nations, whereas in the balkans it is frequent also in Romanians, Vlachs and some Albanians (all non-slavic peoples). At the same time, I2a1b closest brother is in British Isles and I2a1b older variant are found in east-central europe. Autosomally, north slavs are 3/4 North europeans, whereas south slavs are only approx. 1/3 North Europeans. Quite confusing situation. EDIT: Just saw Yetos' remark too late that this is offtopic here, sorry. I'm sometimes amazed by the very "unside" position of some forumers - old tribes did not change language and culture as we change skirt today but some mergins between two different populations had underwent progressive language change according to economic and politic power of one of the antagonists - crossings occurred and not only by the mating of foreign women - I' have not every SNPs distrivution by ancient ethnic groups and even in modern populations - I put my brain at work and I see a very sensible possibility of Y-I2a1(b) occupying central Europe for a long time (Paleolithic): surely enough between Moravia ha Carpathians, Balkans - the farming cultures send by Near-eastern and anatolian peoples were surely adopted by some Y-I2a of Balkans-Carpathians and we have seen great civilisations, advances and powerful enough, growing between E-Balkans and Ukraina at Eneolithic and then Bronze Age (Bulgaria, Romania, Tripolje and extensions: so what is so surprising that a predominently population of Y-I2a1(b) mixed with steppic Y-R1a bearers??? What is so surprising? according to the regions, the density of Y-I2 could have varied? I believe proto-Slavs developped around Ukraina, in contact with Baltic People, (and others after) and that they absorbed a lot of Y-I2a, even if Y-R1a was still the predominent HG - these I2a1 knew maybe a baby boom during their eneolithical period, encreasing in number but not in within diversity - when Slavs, lately enough (historical times) invaded the Balkans, they send "their" Y-I2a1 thay mixed with ancient cousins stayed there since the preneolithicial times (these last ones was numerous enough but too more variated??? How to be too affirmative?

zanipolo
12-01-13, 21:33
I'm sometimes amazed by the very "unside" position of some forumers - old tribes did not change language and culture as we change skirt today but some mergins between two different populations had underwent progressive language change according to economic and politic power of one of the antagonists - crossings occurred and not only by the mating of foreign women - I' have not every SNPs distrivution by ancient ethnic groups and even in modern populations - I put my brain at work and I see a very sensible possibility of Y-I2a1(b) occupying central Europe for a long time (Paleolithic): surely enough between Moravia ha Carpathians, Balkans - the farming cultures send by Near-eastern and anatolian peoples were surely adopted by some Y-I2a of Balkans-Carpathians and we have seen great civilisations, advances and powerful enough, growing between E-Balkans and Ukraina at Eneolithic and then Bronze Age (Bulgaria, Romania, Tripolje and extensions: so what is so surprising that a predominently population of Y-I2a1(b) mixed with steppic Y-R1a bearers??? What is so surprising? according to the regions, the density of Y-I2 could have varied? I believe proto-Slavs developped around Ukraina, in contact with Baltic People, (and others after) and that they absorbed a lot of Y-I2a, even if Y-R1a was still the predominent HG - these I2a1 knew maybe a baby boom during their eneolithical period, encreasing in number but not in within diversity - when Slavs, lately enough (historical times) invaded the Balkans, they send "their" Y-I2a1 thay mixed with ancient cousins stayed there since the preneolithicial times (these last ones was numerous enough but too more variated??? How to be too affirmative? to backup your statement you need to cover what the Y HGs where originally before the I2a1 arrived, like the balkans, I can accept your theory for central europe for I2a1, but it was brought into the balkans by the illyrians and not the slavs

MOESAN
13-01-13, 21:10
to backup your statement you need to cover what the Y HGs where originally before the I2a1 arrived, like the balkans, I can accept your theory for central europe for I2a1, but it was brought into the balkans by the illyrians and not the slavs I wrote I think Y-I2a1 ancestors was already in Europe for a long time, and never did affirm I could precise what tribes or ethnies send this HG in W-Balkans - perhaps some of them was in W-Balkans at Paleolithical times and perhaps some other came there with Illyrians at protohistorical times - my purpose was to try to explain that a LOT of the Y-I2a1b of the present day Balkans, even in West, can have came there mixed with other HGs under a 'slavic' banner - without any agenda, you know - beforehand I spoke of Moravia and Carpathians because there were the more dense settlements in Eastern Europe during Paleolithic , compared to W-Balkans... for Illyrians, I suppose they countained more than a dominant HG? without being sure... I should bet for a dominant Y-R1a about them; I see no certainty for now

Templar
13-01-13, 22:19
I wrote I think Y-I2a1 ancestors was already in Europe for a long time, and never did affirm I could precise what tribes or ethnies send this HG in W-Balkans - perhaps some of them was in W-Balkans at Paleolithical times and perhaps some other came there with Illyrians at protohistorical times - my purpose was to try to explain that a LOT of the Y-I2a1b of the present day Balkans, even in West, can have came there mixed with other HGs under a 'slavic' banner - without any agenda, you know - beforehand I spoke of Moravia and Carpathians because there were the more dense settlements in Eastern Europe during Paleolithic , compared to W-Balkans... for Illyrians, I suppose they countained more than a dominant HG? without being sure... I should bet for a dominant Y-R1a about them; I see no certainty for nowYes, I totally agree with that. Farming began really early in the Eastern Balkans, and it seems like the best location for a mixed Paleolithic European and near-eastern population. The large population ,which would have been the result of thousands of years of farming, wouldn't have been obliterated once Indo-European steppe people arrived, they would have been assimilated. By the time Slavs reached the West Balkans, they would have been thoroughly mixed with East Balkan populations or at least they brought them as "cannon fodder" troops perhaps. But I think this only applies to some Slavic tribes, I think others came directly from the North (Poland maybe?) and didn't mix with the population of the Carpathian range. This would explain why Slovenia and Northern Croatia both have a larger percentage of "Slavic-looking" people, and at the same time a lower frequency of Y-I2a1b. I don't think that a low frequency of both is merely accidental.

kamani
13-01-13, 22:53
Yes, I totally agree with that. Farming began really early in the Eastern Balkans, and it seems like the best location for a mixed Paleolithic European and near-eastern population. The large population ,which would have been the result of thousands of years of farming, wouldn't have been obliterated once Indo-European steppe people arrived, they would have been assimilated. By the time Slavs reached the West Balkans, they would have been thoroughly mixed with East Balkan populations or at least they brought them as "cannon fodder" troops perhaps. But I think this only applies to some Slavic tribes, I think others came directly from the North (Poland maybe?) and didn't mix with the population of the Carpathian range. This would explain why Slovenia and Northern Croatia both have a larger percentage of "Slavic-looking" people, and at the same time a lower frequency of Y-I2a1b. I don't think that a low frequency of both is merely accidental. This is from wikipedia about I2a -Dinaric, I have no doubt it is a marker of the slavic migration to the balkans: I-L69.2 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) {rs9786274} is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%).[14] Haplogroup I-L69.2 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians.[15] There is also a high concentration of I-L69.2 in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion.[16] According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.[17] In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years.[18] In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.[19]

Yetos
13-01-13, 23:39
I wrote I think Y-I2a1 ancestors was already in Europe for a long time, and never did affirm I could precise what tribes or ethnies send this HG in W-Balkans - perhaps some of them was in W-Balkans at Paleolithical times and perhaps some other came there with Illyrians at protohistorical times - my purpose was to try to explain that a LOT of the Y-I2a1b of the present day Balkans, even in West, can have came there mixed with other HGs under a 'slavic' banner - without any agenda, you know - beforehand I spoke of Moravia and Carpathians because there were the more dense settlements in Eastern Europe during Paleolithic , compared to W-Balkans... for Illyrians, I suppose they countained more than a dominant HG? without being sure... I should bet for a dominant Y-R1a about them; I see no certainty for now Haha imagine to find R1a in Varna Necropolis, then we may speak about Balkans as homeland of R1a?????

Yetos
13-01-13, 23:54
Yes, I totally agree with that. Farming began really early in the Eastern Balkans, and it seems like the best location for a mixed Paleolithic European and near-eastern population. The large population ,which would have been the result of thousands of years of farming, wouldn't have been obliterated once Indo-European steppe people arrived, they would have been assimilated. By the time Slavs reached the West Balkans, they would have been thoroughly mixed with East Balkan populations or at least they brought them as "cannon fodder" troops perhaps. But I think this only applies to some Slavic tribes, I think others came directly from the North (Poland maybe?) and didn't mix with the population of the Carpathian range. This would explain why Slovenia and Northern Croatia both have a larger percentage of "Slavic-looking" people, and at the same time a lower frequency of Y-I2a1b. I don't think that a low frequency of both is merely accidental. Slovenia and Croatia have their own stories, Slovenia for example a good Historical mention is Carantani. Croatia has a strange spread of R1a, I was expecting it to be more in inland continental Croatia, yet seems to be more in Dalmatia. Croats as Slavs seems to enter from North and East Serbs are mention to came from North parts or even North of Great Moravia and reach N Peloponese Severi seems to enter from Ucraine through Romania (with Bulgars) and end at about Albania Greece and Fyrom Bosnia is a new culture that springs from older Slavic cultures (at least for me), mainly after Ottomans. Fyrom seems to be a South Serb genetical influence, but closer to Bulgarian culture. (always at least for me)

Templar
14-01-13, 00:33
Slovenia and Croatia have their own stories, Slovenia for example a good Historical mention is Carantani. Croatia has a strange spread of R1a, I was expecting it to be more in inland continental Croatia, yet seems to be more in Dalmatia. Croats as Slavs seems to enter from North and East Serbs are mention to came from North parts or even North of Great Moravia and reach N Peloponese Severi seems to enter from Ucraine through Romania (with Bulgars) and end at about Albania Greece and Fyrom Bosnia is a new culture that springs from older Slavic cultures (at least for me), mainly after Ottomans. Fyrom seems to be a South Serb genetical influence, but closer to Bulgarian culture. (always at least for me) All the maps I've seen indicate that R1a is lower in Dalmatia than in the rest of Croatia: http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Haplogroup-R1a.gif "Bosnia is a new culture that springs from older Slavic cultures (at least for me)" There is plenty of documents that show that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves seperate from Croats and Serbs. Keep in mind that before the arrival of Serbs and Croats, there were other Slavic tribes which arrived with the Avars. Croats assimilated those Slavic tribes in modern-day Croatia, Serbs did it in Serbia, and Bosnians made an identity mostly from those first Slavic tribes. It isn't difficult to understand.

kamani
14-01-13, 02:36
The Avars were 10-20% mongoloid in the 6-th century, and bosnian serbs today are 6.2% haplogroup N. Maybe there is a connection, maybe not.

Templar
14-01-13, 02:55
The Avars were 10-20% mongoloid in the 6-th century, and bosnian serbs today are 6.2% haplogroup N. Maybe there is a connection, maybe not. Yeah, it is quite possible. Only Bosnian serbs have it at that high of a frequency? That is odd. By the way, many "Serbs" aren't native to Bosnia, they served as border-guards for the Ottoman Turks. Ottoman Turks trusted the Orthodox population much more than Catholics, and since most of Bosnia was Catholic in the 15th century, they had to bring in people that they could trust. The book "A short history: Bosnia" by Noel Malcolm, is a really good book if you want to learn more about the history of Bosnia.

Dalmat
14-01-13, 03:02
All the maps I've seen indicate that R1a is lower in Dalmatia than in the rest of Croatia: http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Haplogroup-R1a.gif "Bosnia is a new culture that springs from older Slavic cultures (at least for me)" There is plenty of documents that show that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves seperate from Croats and Serbs. Keep in mind that before the arrival of Serbs and Croats, there were other Slavic tribes which arrived with the Avars. Croats assimilated those Slavic tribes in modern-day Croatia, Serbs did it in Serbia, and Bosnians made an identity mostly from those first Slavic tribes. It isn't difficult to understand.Its not if you are into science fiction.Bosnian were never ethicity unitl 1994, but regional term ascribed to those living by river Bosnia.There are plenty of records that speak about that, as well as common sense.Avars and their allies settled pannonian plane, never below, they only went raiding south occasionally.Todays Dalmatia, and part of BiH was Croatian proto state, which united with(conqured) Panonian Slavs in the north who were probably those that were with Avars you speak of.Bosnian Ban was one of the 7 Croatian Bans of Croatian kingdom who went rouge after king was regicided, and his lands(which were by the river Bosina doh) were foundation of Bosnian kingdom later on.

Templar
14-01-13, 03:26
Its not if you are into science fiction.Bosnian were never ethicity unitl 1994, but regional term ascribed to those living by river Bosnia.There are plenty of records that speak about that, as well as common sense.Avars and their allies settled pannonian plane, never below, they only went raiding south occasionally.Todays Dalmatia, and part of BiH was Croatian proto state, which united with(conqured) Panonian Slavs in the north who were probably those that were with Avars you speak of.Bosnian Ban was one of the 7 Croatian Bans of Croatian kingdom who went rouge after king was regicided, and his lands(which were by the river Bosina doh) were foundation of Bosnian kingdom later on. You have no evidence whatsoever that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves Croat. All Bosnian documents in which Bosnians refer to themselves, the word "Bosnanin" is used. Catholics in Bosnia didn't consider themselves Croat until 19th century, when nationalism spread throughout Europe after the Napoleonic wars. There are many 19th century CATHOLIC Bosnians which confirm this. Most of the Catholic Bosnians figured that they had more in common with neighboring Croatia than with Muslim Bosnians, so they changed identities. Avars did penetrate further southwards than you say. Remember that the supposed reason why Croats and Serbs came, is because the Byzantines require assistance against the Avars and their Slavic allies. If the Avars were strictly confined merely at the Northern Byzantine border, there would have been no need for Croat and Serb conquest now would there?

Dalmat
14-01-13, 08:54
You have no evidence whatsoever that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves Croat. All Bosnian documents in which Bosnians refer to themselves, the word "Bosnanin" is used. Catholics in Bosnia didn't consider themselves Croat until 19th century, when nationalism spread throughout Europe after the Napoleonic wars. There are many 19th century CATHOLIC Bosnians which confirm this. Most of the Catholic Bosnians figured that they had more in common with neighboring Croatia than with Muslim Bosnians, so they changed identities. Avars did penetrate further southwards than you say. Remember that the supposed reason why Croats and Serbs came, is because the Byzantines require assistance against the Avars and their Slavic allies. If the Avars were strictly confined merely at the Northern Byzantine border, there would have been no need for Croat and Serb conquest now would there?Of course there is.Supetarski kartular for instance, preserved first hand historical evidence from begining of 11 century. Do you know what means first hand, its original, not some "transcript". As for nonsence that Chatolic Bosnians didnt consider them selves Croats until 19. century, how do you explain Turks called them Croats way before that.It was Turk imagination?Less propaganda more facts, in fact all history about Bosnia was preserved by Croats, that coat of arms you have is desighned by Croat in '90. Less fantasy, more facts, please.First Bosnian King Tvrtko Koromanić(that surname stil exist among Croats BTW), his uncle Ban Stjepan Kotromanić wrote to the Pope in 1347 when asing for monks "...doctrina peritos et lingue croatice non ignaros" - knowilgable in religion, and not without knowing Croatian language.

Dalmat
14-01-13, 09:24
Also please re-read history books, you write so much disinformation, its unbelivable, Serbs came after us, and were not fighting Avars, we took care of them before. Avars were on panonian plane, and they raided southwards, ocasionaly crossing Sava river, and some even came to the coast, and started rading Roman towns. tHey did not settled south, only came as raidng bands.Serbs were mentioned first at around Solun(Makedoinia), and then moved towards Belgrade, to southern Serbia, now known as Sandžak, or Raška, which quickly fell to Bugars.It was a border betwenn Bulgaria and Croatia, and lots of well documented battles from different sources took place there.

Yetos
14-01-13, 11:50
Also please re-read history books, you write so much disinformation, its unbelivable, Serbs came after us, and were not fighting Avars, we took care of them before. Avars were on panonian plane, and they raided southwards, ocasionaly crossing Sava river, and some even came to the coast, and started rading Roman towns. tHey did not settled south, only came as raidng bands.Serbs were mentioned first at around Solun(Makedoinia), and then moved towards Belgrade, to southern Serbia, now known as Sandžak, or Raška, which quickly fell to Bugars.It was a border betwenn Bulgaria and Croatia, and lots of well documented battles from different sources took place there. I am not Serb but from what I remember they are mention south of Danube, among Beograd to Nis, first time, then at Skopje the times of Dusan, Thessaloniki is very far from where Serbs proto-mentioned about 300-500 km at least. the case of Bosnians as Croats or Serbs I can not tell, But seems that Local rulers in medieval times play well the game of alliance and religion, Gennetics show that Bosnia i Herzegovina was Heavily inhabited by Slavs, maybe more than some areas which we consider today South Slavs, differences among Slavs could be due to previous culture, and due to the alliances they made. so the only I can tell is that denying the Slavic part of Bosnia is tottaly wrong, Besides what we must see is not the eye-vision that we have today, but the eye that people had that time, for example today in area we say Catholics Muslims and Orthodox, But was it the same before 1054 ? Did Catholics or Orthodox exist the time that Slavs enter Balkans? damn I can not even underline. if we see with today eye we may fail by using today's criteria, we must with the eyes of 600 AD and after. so the termination Catholic and Orthodox and Muslim did not existed that time, even Slavs did not know about Christians that time, so what we call today Croat or Bosnian or Serb might be the other nationality that time, and through time and local rulers alliances and decisions change to another nationality today .................................................. .................................................. ............ @Templar I do not know if any other Slavic tribe entered Balkans, but Bosnia is Gennetically heavy from Slavic elements, the Catholics Orthodox Muslim of today has to do with alliances after the entrance of Slavs to Balkans, when Slavs entered Balkans they were not Christians, then started to convert, and then at 1054 started the great Schsim to catholics and Orthodox, and after Ottomans enetered the Muslim element, .................................................. .................................................. ................................. To Both understand more compare the Data of Bosnia Croatia Serbia and Fyrom (especially with the city of Skopje), use the local eye focusing to provinces mainly and not today border lines, border lines are just geographical criteria, focus mainly in R1a and in I2a2-Din (old name), there are your answers.

Templar
14-01-13, 12:02
Of course there is.Supetarski kartular for instance, preserved first hand historical evidence from begining of 11 century. Do you know what means first hand, its original, not some "transcript". As for nonsence that Chatolic Bosnians didnt consider them selves Croats until 19. century, how do you explain Turks called them Croats way before that.It was Turk imagination?Less propaganda more facts, in fact all history about Bosnia was preserved by Croats, that coat of arms you have is desighned by Croat in '90. Less fantasy, more facts, please.First Bosnian King Tvrtko Koromanić(that surname stil exist among Croats BTW), his uncle Ban Stjepan Kotromanić wrote to the Pope in 1347 when asing for monks "...doctrina peritos et lingue croatice non ignaros" - knowilgable in religion, and not without knowing Croatian language.Chill your tone, this is a discussion, no need for emotions. Have you read the writings of 19th century Catholic Bosnians such as Antun Knežević? They specifically refer to a process of Croatization happening. As to the supetar cartulary, it even mentions an Albanian ban, do you consider them Croatian too? The quote you mentioned isn't reliable evidence, the number of priests in Bosnia was already relatively low, how could you expect any of them to be living in the Papal States, not to mention the fact that Croatia likely had a much larger population (and therefore more priests).

Templar
14-01-13, 12:20
Also please re-read history books, you write so much disinformation, its unbelivable, Serbs came after us, and were not fighting Avars, we took care of them before. Avars were on panonian plane, and they raided southwards, ocasionaly crossing Sava river, and some even came to the coast, and started rading Roman towns. tHey did not settled south, only came as raidng bands.Serbs were mentioned first at around Solun(Makedoinia), and then moved towards Belgrade, to southern Serbia, now known as Sandžak, or Raška, which quickly fell to Bugars.It was a border betwenn Bulgaria and Croatia, and lots of well documented battles from different sources took place there.It seems like disinformation to you, because you have a biased political agenda. Lets stick to facts and analysis, deal? There are quite a few legitimate maps, which show the Avar Khagnate going further South than the Pannonian plane (just google it). Serbs and Croats were both used by the Byzantines against the Avars, why are you disputing this?

kamani
14-01-13, 12:40
The spread of christianity is quite interesting too. Originally it was the state religion of the roman empire, put in place by Emperor Constantine of Illyrian origin (272 - 337 AD). The new testament was originally writen in greek, so probably it was writen by Constantine's wise men in the Byzantine empire. This all happened at a time when the Roman Empire was at the deffensive from the barbarian tribes. Somehow in the middle ages the germanic, slavic, and latin people all became christians. It seems the invaders of the roman empire (germanic or slavic) actually liked this new religion and kept it as a state religion of their own. Oddly enough, the ottoman turks also let christianity live and prosper under their protection until the 18-19th century, when they started forced conversions to islam in Albania and Bosnia.

Yetos
14-01-13, 15:23
The spread of christianity is quite interesting too. Originally it was the state religion of the roman empire, put in place by Emperor Constantine of Illyrian origin (272 - 337 AD). The new testament was originally writen in greek, so probably it was writen by Constantine's wise men in the Byzantine empire. This all happened at a time when the Roman Empire was at the deffensive from the barbarian tribes. Somehow in the middle ages the germanic, slavic, and latin people all became christians. It seems the invaders of the roman empire (germanic or slavic) actually liked this new religion and kept it as a state religion of their own. Oddly enough, the ottoman turks also let christianity live and prosper under their protection until the 18-19th century, when they started forced conversions to islam in Albania and Bosnia. are you sure you are not ZEUS 10? are you sure you giving us the correct data and scientific proves? was Vallavan at 18th century? was new testament written in Con/nes men by Con/ne's wise men? Gods, I wonder is the history that Albanians are teached in school or the history that Zeus 10 made? plz man tell us in which book you read that? asource. let me guess, religion history is forbiden in Albania? or you are just an atheist or muslim that never came in contact with religion History?
Oddly enough, the ottoman turks also let christianity live and prosper under their protection until the 18-19th century, when they started forced conversions to islam in Albania and Bosnia. cause from what I see by your post, then Kastrioti and Vallavan pasha were at 18th century.
The new testament was originally writen in greek, so probably it was writen by Constantine's wise men in the Byzantine empire. New testament was written after the translation of O' and much after Italla in Constantinople by Constantine's wise men!!!!! So at 1rst Century in Rome the christians did not had written texts, the O' where not in Alexandreia, and his majesty emperror Nero ? so Kamani who were the ones that Nero send to arena? and why christians exterminate Greeks with such hate?
The spread of christianity is quite interesting too. Originally it was the state religion of the roman empire, put in place by Emperor Constantine of Illyrian origin (272 - 337 AD) so Constantine who all say that is connected (mother origin) with Nis Serbia was Illyrian? is that you like and wanted to Be? or historically tested and by who? Zeus 10? why you Albanians keep spreading incorect Data and twist historical data to the forum? I guess tomorrow you will tell us that Homer was Illyrian and spoke Albanian, right Kamani? .................................................. .................................................. .................. @kamani Aelians were not Pelasgians, Iones are not Aeolians, Mycaneans are not the only Greeks, E-V13 did not came from neolithic Spain, E-V13 is not Caucasian in origin, New testament was not written in Constantinopolis, New testament was not written at 324 AD, New testament was not written by Constanine's wise men, Islam exist in Albania much before 18th century, (except if Kastrioti and Vallavan pasha existed in 18th century), and Constanine's mother was named Ελενη (Helen) and was from NIS Serbia, Nis Serbia is connected with 4rth Legion the Flavia which gave emperrors until Justinianus (Flavius) dynasty, as for his father ..... .................................................. .................................................. ............................................... I don't know why you do it? but man is ........... to the other who read and write to forum, I wonder when you will understand that? keep your Albanocentric twisted propaganda for your shelf and zeus10, if you want to twist history, gennetics, facts, texts then that means you do it either by ignorance, either on purpose.

Dalmat
14-01-13, 17:54
It seems like disinformation to you, because you have a biased political agenda. Lets stick to facts and analysis, deal? There are quite a few legitimate maps, which show the Avar Khagnate going further South than the Pannonian plane (just google it). Serbs and Croats were both used by the Byzantines against the Avars, why are you disputing this?Avars were Horsemen who never settled anywhere near mountainus BiH, not only folloving common sense, but we dont have any archeological evidence of Avars beeing in BiH.I am not disputing Serbs being involved with Avars, sources relevant to subject dispute that... i think it should be clear.

kamani
14-01-13, 18:01
are you sure you are not ZEUS 10? are you sure you giving us the correct data and scientific proves? was Vallavan at 18th century? was new testament written in Con/nes men by Con/ne's wise men? Gods, I wonder is the history that Albanians are teached in school or the history that Zeus 10 made? plz man tell us in which book you read that? asource. let me guess, religion history is forbiden in Albania? or you are just an atheist or muslim that never came in contact with religion History? cause from what I see by your post, then Kastrioti and Vallavan pasha were at 18th century. New testament was written after the translation of O' and much after Italla in Constantinople by Constantine's wise men!!!!! So at 1rst Century in Rome the christians did not had written texts, the O' where not in Alexandreia, and his majesty emperror Nero ? so Kamani who were the ones that Nero send to arena? and why christians exterminate Greeks with such hate? so Constantine who all say that is connected (mother origin) with Nis Serbia was Illyrian? is that you like and wanted to Be? or historically tested and by who? Zeus 10? why you Albanians keep spreading incorect Data and twist historical data to the forum? I guess tomorrow you will tell us that Homer was Illyrian and spoke Albanian, right Kamani? .................................................. .................................................. .................. @kamani Aelians were not Pelasgians, Iones are not Aeolians, Mycaneans are not the only Greeks, E-V13 did not came from neolithic Spain, E-V13 is not Caucasian in origin, New testament was not written in Constantinopolis, New testament was not written at 324 AD, New testament was not written by Constanine's wise men, Islam exist in Albania much before 18th century, (except if Kastrioti and Vallavan pasha existed in 18th century), and Constanine's mother was named Ελενη (Helen) and was from NIS Serbia, Nis Serbia is connected with 4rth Legion the Flavia which gave emperrors until Justinianus (Flavius) dynasty, as for his father ..... .................................................. .................................................. ............................................... I don't know why you do it? but man is ........... to the other who read and write to forum, I wonder when you will understand that? keep your Albanocentric twisted propaganda for your shelf and zeus10, if you want to twist history, gennetics, facts, texts then that means you do it either by ignorance, either on purpose.I am not going to lower my standards just yet and do the whole name-calling thing, but here is the facts from wikipedia. As you can see, Constantine was Illyrian and before him christianity was just a persecuted illegal sect. Ballaban was christian chatholic. Ty for correcting me about the new testament being writen during Constantine; it was writen before him, but maybe just by 100 years, which is nothing. Taken from wikipedia: In almost all Christian traditions today, the New Testament consists of 27 books. The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era, generally believed to be in Koine Greek.Flavius Valerius Constantinus, as he was originally named, was born in the city of Naissus, Dardania province of Moesia, in present-day Niš, Serbia, on 27 February of an uncertain year,[27] probably near 272.[28] His father was Flavius Constantius, a native of Dardania province of Moesia (later Dacia Ripensis).[29] Constantius was a tolerant and politically skilled man.[30] Constantine probably spent little time with his father.[31] Constantius was an officer in the Roman army in 272, part of the Emperor Aurelian's imperial bodyguard. Constantius advanced through the ranks, earning the governorship of Dalmatia from Emperor Diocletian, another of Aurelian's companions from Illyricum, in 284 or 285.In February 313, Constantine met with Licinius in Milan, where they developed the Edict of Milan. The edict stated that Christians should be allowed to follow the faith without oppression.[204] This removed penalties for professing Christianity, under which many had been martyred in persecutions of Christians.Ballaban Badera was born in Mat, Albania as a Catholic with the name Michael, the son of Milosh and Helena. Conscripted through the Devshirme system he rose to the rank of Pasha in the Ottoman Army under Sultan Mehmed II.Ballaban fought Skanderbeg in April 1465 close to Ohrid. The Albanians were victorious, but many officers were captured, including Moisi Arianit Golemi of Dibra. They were sent to Constantinople, where after refusing to join the Ottoman faction they were executed by public skinning in Istanbul.Albania and the Kosovo area remained under Ottoman rule until 1913. Previous to the Ottoman conquest, the northern Albanians were Roman Catholic and the southern Albanians were Christian Orthodox, but by 1913 the majority were Muslim. Apart from the effect of a lengthy period under Ottoman domination, many of the subject population were converted to Islam as a result of a deliberate move by the Ottomans as part of a policy of ensuring the loyalty of the population against a potential Venetian invasion.

Templar
14-01-13, 18:55
Avars were Horsemen who never settled anywhere near mountainus BiH, not only folloving common sense, but we dont have any archeological evidence of Avars beeing in BiH.I am not disputing Serbs being involved with Avars, sources relevant to subject dispute that... i think it should be clear.You forget that the Avars were a minority, their Slavic allies formed the vast majority of their forces. "any archeological evidence of Avars beeing in BiH" Perhaps but there is evidence that there were Slavic tribes there before the arrival of Croats and Serbs. "I am not disputing Serbs being involved with Avars, sources relevant to subject dispute that... i think it should be clear" Serbs fought against Avars in Byzantine armies, look it up.

Yetos
15-01-13, 01:33
I am not going to lower my standards just yet and do the whole name-calling thing, but here is the facts from wikipedia. As you can see, Constantine was Illyrian and before him christianity was just a persecuted illegal sect. Ballaban was christian chatholic. Ty for correcting me about the new testament being writen during Constantine; it was writen before him, but maybe just by 100 years, which is nothing. Taken from wikipedia: In almost all Christian traditions today, the New Testament consists of 27 books. The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era, generally believed to be in Koine Greek.Flavius Valerius Constantinus, as he was originally named, was born in the city of Naissus, Dardania province of Moesia, in present-day Niš, Serbia, on 27 February of an uncertain year,[27] probably near 272.[28] His father was Flavius Constantius, a native of Dardania province of Moesia (later Dacia Ripensis).[29] Constantius was a tolerant and politically skilled man.[30] Constantine probably spent little time with his father.[31] Constantius was an officer in the Roman army in 272, part of the Emperor Aurelian's imperial bodyguard. Constantius advanced through the ranks, earning the governorship of Dalmatia from Emperor Diocletian, another of Aurelian's companions from Illyricum, in 284 or 285.In February 313, Constantine met with Licinius in Milan, where they developed the Edict of Milan. The edict stated that Christians should be allowed to follow the faith without oppression.[204] This removed penalties for professing Christianity, under which many had been martyred in persecutions of Christians.Ballaban Badera was born in Mat, Albania as a Catholic with the name Michael, the son of Milosh and Helena. Conscripted through the Devshirme system he rose to the rank of Pasha in the Ottoman Army under Sultan Mehmed II.Ballaban fought Skanderbeg in April 1465 close to Ohrid. The Albanians were victorious, but many officers were captured, including Moisi Arianit Golemi of Dibra. They were sent to Constantinople, where after refusing to join the Ottoman faction they were executed by public skinning in Istanbul.Albania and the Kosovo area remained under Ottoman rule until 1913. Previous to the Ottoman conquest, the northern Albanians were Roman Catholic and the southern Albanians were Christian Orthodox, but by 1913 the majority were Muslim. Apart from the effect of a lengthy period under Ottoman domination, many of the subject population were converted to Islam as a result of a deliberate move by the Ottomans as part of a policy of ensuring the loyalty of the population against a potential Venetian invasion.


Correct Kamani at least you have study in Wikipedia lets go more now,
1)
Vallavan pasha, Did you ever hear that turks would make a non Muslim as pasha,
Pasha is a very high military position, pasha can have its own army, would ottomans give that tittle to a non muslim?
and since Vallavan was born as Michael you know that he is the first who converted to Islam, so the first converter was not at 18 century but at least before or same time with Kruja
chance religion means also change of name, so it is not 18th or 19 century, but at least before 1460-5

2)
the Constantine,
NIS WAS NOT ILLYRIAN BUT THRACIAN TRBALLI THRACIAN CULTURE, TRIBALLI WERE NOT ILLYRIANS
ROMANS NAMED DARDANIA ILLYRICUM MAKEDONIA AREAS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO.
NIS WAS THE AREA THAT 4rth LEGION FLAVIA used as base and homeland,
legion Flavia is the legion that Gauls-celts Scordisci join and replace All emperors of that dynasty to Justinianus use that Flavia, Nis name is given by Scordisci Gauls who spoke Belgae,
original dardania Illyricum makedonia Achaia etc that Romans name has nothing to do with Geography and population, Byzantines once named Makedonia the Stara Zagora area and Bulgaria the Bosnia.
Nis is the limit of the Triballi and Paeoni Thracians,
understand it he was a Flavian, means Roman or Gaul in ancestry, Flavian dynasty of Rome?
we are playing with words, Triballi land was Illyricum but not Illyrians understand that
every one in Illyricum does mean was Illyrian, it is another the Makedonia of ancient times, another the Makedonia of Romans, and another the Makedonia of Iberian dynasty of East Romans



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IV_Flavia_Felix

The Romans occupied the town in the period of the "Dardanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29) War" (75-73 BC), and set up a legionary camp.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1#cite_note-RB-9) The city (called refugia and vici in pre-Roman relation), because of its strategic position (the Thracians were based to the south[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1#cite_note-RB-9))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1


search the stories of 4 Legion Macedonica and 5 legion Aludae (cinqueari), some Aromani may have origin in that legion.
and the story of 4 Legion Flavia they were all Italians(4 Mac) and province Gauls(5 Alu)
the name Nis is a Gaulish name

ty, with your answer we can have a normal discuss.

kamani
15-01-13, 02:52
Correct Kamani at least you have study in Wikipedia lets go more now,
1)
Vallavan pasha, Did you ever hear that turks would make a non Muslim as pasha,
Pasha is a very high military position, pasha can have its own army, would ottomans give that tittle to a non muslim?
and since Vallavan was born as Michael you know that he is the first who converted to Islam, so the first converter was not at 18 century but at least before or same time with Kruja
chance religion means also change of name, so it is not 18th or 19 century, but at least before 1460-5

2)
the Constantine,
NIS WAS NOT ILLYRIAN BUT THRACIAN TRBALLI THRACIAN CULTURE, TRIBALLI WERE NOT ILLYRIANS
ROMANS NAMED DARDANIA ILLYRICUM MAKEDONIA AREAS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO.
NIS WAS THE AREA THAT 4rth LEGION FLAVIA used as base and homeland,
legion Flavia is the legion that Gauls-celts Scordisci join and replace All emperors of that dynasty to Justinianus use that Flavia, Nis name is given by Scordisci Gauls who spoke Belgae,
original dardania Illyricum makedonia Achaia etc that Romans name has nothing to do with Geography and population, Byzantines once named Makedonia the Stara Zagora area and Bulgaria the Bosnia.
Nis is the limit of the Triballi and Paeoni Thracians,
understand it he was a Flavian, means Roman or Gaul in ancestry, Flavian dynasty of Rome?
we are playing with words, Triballi land was Illyricum but not Illyrians understand that
every one in Illyricum does mean was Illyrian, it is another the Makedonia of ancient times, another the Makedonia of Romans, and another the Makedonia of Iberian dynasty of East Romans



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IV_Flavia_Felix

The Romans occupied the town in the period of the "Dardanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29) War" (75-73 BC), and set up a legionary camp.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1#cite_note-RB-9) The city (called refugia and vici in pre-Roman relation), because of its strategic position (the Thracians were based to the south[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1#cite_note-RB-9))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1


search the stories of 4 Legion Macedonica and 5 legion Aludae (cinqueari), some Aromani may have origin in that legion.
and the story of 4 Legion Flavia they were all Italians(4 Mac) and province Gauls(5 Alu)
the name Nis is a Gaulish name

ty, with your answer we can have a normal discuss.

1. I never said Ballaban remained christian all his life. Ofcourse the ottomans would want their
pasha-s to convert.

2. Not everybody named Flavius was roman and I doubt that everybody in Niss was Triballi or from the Flavia roman legion.
This is from Encyclopedia Brittanica:
Several of the most outstanding emperors of the late Roman Empire were of Illyrian origin,
including Claudius II Gothicus, Aurelian, Diocletian, and Constantine the Great, most of whom
were chosen by their own troops on the battlefield and later acclaimed by the Senate.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/283105/Illyria