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Yetos
16-01-13, 11:25
Taranis what do you think about Summerian-Akkadian and IE and Turkish,

I mean in Greco-Aryan we have kurdish anahitta and Greek ανακα as King-ruller officer
in Homeric we se Achaians = kings comparing with etymologies
Persian achamenides Greek Agamemnon (Achileus is also strange, means sound of lion in clear Greek but King of many people via Summerian-Akkadian, many people = Myrioi myrioi Myr+Myr+dones(sumerian plural)
In India we have the Sachs
in German the Saxons
but what about Celts?
if I connect the etymology of Gaull with Sumerian I get gal+lu means also kings sachs saxons achaians.
same word-root also found in Slavic Golyam = Big huge and in Greek following possible the summerian plural
we see μεγας and γιγας and when comes to noun we see μεγαλειον

to go more, the Sumerrian Kur means mountain
by what we see
Kurds = mountain people (another etymology via strong-clear Greek is κουρητες = armed dancers)
Ur - Hur Ar-menians = mountain people
the word exist in Greek as ορος and κορυφη (as one word or 2 kur+υβος, bump of mountain)
also in Slavic as Goran = mountain
and strangely in S-west Europe as Sierra
yet in the other hand we see Turkish top of mountain as Dag teppe which may be co-insidence or relatine to Esthonian mae tippi and North Europes Top connectivity with Turkic, but mountain to Dag to oros to kur???
or Turkic teppe comes from IE up - ober επι+ανω.

so what we need is to search the role of Summerian and Akkadian (akka means king = acha aga sax sach gallu) in IE
and believe me the connectivity is enough,

about the model of Renfrew I agree with you that words like copper chariot (αρμα) should evolute tottaly different if IE was a pre-chalcolithic time spread,
from arcaiologists we know the arsenic bronze road from Maykop to Danube, but after the new arcaiological evidences of older Kurgans we can not combine Kurgans with Steppe people, but with Balkanic and minor Asian-middle East people.

so we use the arsenic bronze road to explain as possible IE .
but what about the gold road,
no matter the believes of ancient Greeks that gold mettalurgy was around Georgia and Laz we see that gold mettalurgy was started in Balkans and is older than many known elder civilizations, we consider previous,
but from Balkans and varna gold reach deep in steppe people much before the discovery of Bronze.

also lets see another group, hunters and farmers, steppe people and town-cities people
in the hunters of the North we see many Uralian and Danae-Turkic languages, as also in steppe people
but in south Europe except Etruscans and Hattians (for me they are the same people) we don't see that.
remember Greece has almost 0% Altaic marks,
so IE seems to be more a town-city like language than an open steppe or hunting society language.

to make my shelf more clear,

4 words 1 meaning
the original Greek is ανθος (flower)
but in modern Greek we see the word λουλουδiα (mostly plural) especially in thracian traditional sonds,
in West Europe again mostly in plural we see Lillies and simmilar
in Turkic we see the Lale - lalle as flower,
in Summerian is Liligi (clear plural)
so the word is what?
IE and enter Summerian and Turkic?
Turkic and enter Summerian and IE?
Summerian and entered both?
we can use the Nostradic theory and say that Summerian Turkic and IE are Altaic languages,
But Nostradic is tottaly off in case of Summerian Kur Gal as I wrote above,
that could mean that words Kur and Gal are loan to Summerian.

MOESAN
16-01-13, 14:55
Taranis what do you think about Summerian-Akkadian and IE and Turkish,

I mean in Greco-Aryan we have kurdish anahitta and Greek ανακα as King-ruller officer
in Homeric we se Achaians = kings comparing with etymologies
Persian achamenides Greek Agamemnon (Achileus is also strange, means sound of lion in clear Greek but King of many people via Summerian-Akkadian, many people = Myrioi myrioi Myr+Myr+dones(sumerian plural)
In India we have the Sachs
in German the Saxons
but what about Celts?
if I connect the etymology of Gaull with Sumerian I get gal+lu means also kings sachs saxons achaians.
same word-root also found in Slavic Golyam = Big huge and in Greek following possible the summerian plural
we see μεγας and γιγας and when comes to noun we see μεγαλειον

to go more, the Sumerrian Kur means mountain



by what we see
Kurds = mountain people (another etymology via strong-clear Greek is κουρητες = armed dancers)
Ur - Hur Ar-menians = mountain people
the word exist in Greek as ορος and κορυφη (as one word or 2 kur+υβος, bump of mountain)
also in Slavic as Goran = mountain
and strangely in S-west Europe as Sierra
yet in the other hand we see Turkish top of mountain as Dag teppe which may be co-insidence or relatine to Esthonian mae tippi and North Europes Top connectivity with Turkic, but mountain to Dag to oros to kur???
or Turkic teppe comes from IE up - ober επι+ανω.

so what we need is to search the role of Summerian and Akkadian (akka means king = acha aga sax sach gallu) in IE
and believe me the connectivity is enough,

about the model of Renfrew I agree with you that words like copper chariot (αρμα) should evolute tottaly different if IE was a pre-chalcolithic time spread,
from arcaiologists we know the arsenic bronze road from Maykop to Danube, but after the new arcaiological evidences of older Kurgans we can not combine Kurgans with Steppe people, but with Balkanic and minor Asian-middle East people.

so we use the arsenic bronze road to explain as possible IE .
but what about the gold road,
no matter the believes of ancient Greeks that gold mettalurgy was around Georgia and Laz we see that gold mettalurgy was started in Balkans and is older than many known elder civilizations, we consider previous,
but from Balkans and varna gold reach deep in steppe people much before the discovery of Bronze.

also lets see another group, hunters and farmers, steppe people and town-cities people
in the hunters of the North we see many Uralian and Danae-Turkic languages, as also in steppe people
but in south Europe except Etruscans and Hattians (for me they are the same people) we don't see that.
remember Greece has almost 0% Altaic marks,
so IE seems to be more a town-city like language than an open steppe or hunting society language.

to make my shelf more clear,

4 words 1 meaning
the original Greek is ανθος (flower)
but in modern Greek we see the word λουλουδiα (mostly plural) especially in thracian traditional sonds,
in West Europe again mostly in plural we see Lillies and simmilar
in Turkic we see the Lale - lalle as flower,
in Summerian is Liligi (clear plural)
so the word is what?
IE and enter Summerian and Turkic?
Turkic and enter Summerian and IE?
Summerian and entered both?
we can use the Nostradic theory and say that Summerian Turkic and IE are Altaic languages,
But Nostradic is tottaly off in case of Summerian Kur Gal as I wrote above,
that could mean that words Kur and Gal are loan to Summerian.

Yetos, you seam having a large knowledge of different languages vocabulary but could you give more intermediary (between) forms when you give us ranges of words "etymologies" ?-
I have the impression you see links a bit everywhere between the languages, no matter which of them: to search is a good thing, to conclude too hastly a bad one - no offense
'meG-' is something, 'Gal-' an other one, do'nt link 'meGal' with 'Gal-', please; the same doubt about 'Ach-' (*'Hach-'?), 'Sach-' or 'Kur'/'Ur'/'Gor'...
, or perhaps I lacked something? Maybe your way of writing in a shortened or hopping way?

Taranis
16-01-13, 15:26
Taranis what do you think about Summerian-Akkadian and IE and Turkish

Full stop.

- There is no "Akkadian-Sumerian language": Akkadian is a Semitic language. Before comparing any Akkadian word with Indo-European, or anything else, you should start looking into other Semitic languages (eg. Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic).

- Sumerian is treated as an isolate language. If you want to demonstrate that Sumerian has a closer relationship with any other language or language families (which, mind you, a lot of people have attempted before you), you better demonstrate how the various Sumerian sounds correspond regularly to those in the other language, and just not randomly compare words.

- the Turkic languages are much younger (Proto-Turkic is an iron age language, somewhat comparable in age to the Germanic languages). I think it has no relevance in this discussion, unless you can demonstrate to us that the Turkic languages are substantially older, and you can point us to any evidence that Turkic languages were in Europe or the Near East in the 2nd or 3rd millennium BC...

- You claimed Etruscan and Hattian are "the same": demonstrate it. Demonstrate to us how Etruscan words correspond with Hattian words.

Also, a lot of those examples that you gave are what I would like to call "magic word dismantling", which, no offense, isn't linguistics: you compare supferificially similar words from different times from languages geographically far apart with no form of coherent methodology behind.

Mind my words next time you post something like this. :wary2:


I had written a very developped answer to Taranis but have lost everything when sending the post :( I will have to take it back from the beginning, sorry for delaying my answer...

I'm sorry to hear that. Please, take your time. I have expirienced the same problem in the past: if nothing else goes, I would suggest writing more lengthier posts in a text editing program and copy-and-paste them in.

Yetos
16-01-13, 17:19
Full stop.

- There is no "Akkadian-Sumerian language": Akkadian is a Semitic language. Before comparing any Akkadian word with Indo-European, or anything else, you should start looking into other Semitic languages (eg. Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic).

True, but how you explain that word Akka = King in Akkadian, is acha -aga -sach in IE?



- Sumerian is treated as an isolate language. If you want to demonstrate that Sumerian has a closer relationship with any other language or language families (which, mind you, a lot of people have attempted before you), you better demonstrate how the various Sumerian sounds correspond regularly to those in the other language, and just not randomly compare words.

yes but Summerian language before is also treated also as Nostradic and hurro-Urartian Language,




- the Turkic languages are much younger (Proto-Turkic is an iron age language, somewhat comparable in age to the Germanic languages). I think it has no relevance in this discussion, unless you can demonstrate to us that the Turkic languages are substantially older, and you can point us to any evidence that Turkic languages were in Europe or the Near East in the 2nd or 3rd millennium BC...

what about Basquez? isn't a Danae-turkic language?
so when Basquez proto spoken in Europe? before or after IE?

If Basquez is a Danae-Turkic language and was spoken before Ie you have your evidence.
If Basquez is a Danae Turkic language and was spoken after IE then from where came? East or North?



- You claimed Etruscan and Hattian are "the same": demonstrate it. Demonstrate to us how Etruscan words correspond with Hattian words.

I said for me, so I claim nothing, But can you prove the opposite? Νο you can not also prove that Hattians and Etruscans are not the same, yet from geographical terms, Historical terms archaiological terms and even limited linguistic we know Etruscans (Pelasgians) and Hattians are connected and meet in W minor Asia.



Also, a lot of those examples that you gave are what I would like to call "magic word dismantling", which, no offense, isn't linguistics: you compare supferificially similar words from different times from languages geographically far apart with no form of coherent methodology behind.

I agree, I use no coherent methodology,
But do I need one to compare Slavic Golyam with Summerian Gal and biblical Goliath?
Do I need a coherent methodology when I see that Summerian Kur cognates with Slavic Gor and Greek Ορος-Κορυφη? same sound same meaning, what can be more simple than that?
we do not speak here about aspirations laws etc, we speak about clear same meaning and almost same sound,[/QUOTE]


My big question, which I may did pass on my post is this

If these words that I mention are Loans from Summerian to IE then when did they enter since we probably have no Summerian Invasion in Europe?
and the opposite if IE were steppe language then how come these words enter Summerian? (pre-Summerian entrance to middle East?)
on the other hand IE language may enter to steppe By Tocharians, ( I use may in case of missunderstanding)

Yetos
16-01-13, 17:33
Yetos, you seam having a large knowledge of different languages vocabulary but could you give more intermediary (between) forms when you give us ranges of words "etymologies" ?-
I have the impression you see links a bit everywhere between the languages, no matter which of them: to search is a good thing, to conclude too hastly a bad one - no offense
'meG-' is something, 'Gal-' an other one, do'nt link 'meGal' with 'Gal-', please; the same doubt about 'Ach-' (*'Hach-'?), 'Sach-' or 'Kur'/'Ur'/'Gor'...
, or perhaps I lacked something? Maybe your way of writing in a shortened or hopping way?

ok I will not connect the noun μεγαλειον with Gal

but lets the other
Greek Μεγα (me ga = big )
Greek Γιγα (gi ga = giant)
means root -ga is connected with the meaning of Big

as we see again we find in 2 words the ga missing the l,
comparing with Slavic Golyam and Summerian Gal, do you believe is a diabolic co-insidence?

What I want to express is that until today we consider IE as steppe language and was connected with Uralian languages,
But from what it seems IE is also connected with Akkadian and especially with Summerian.
so If IE was a North steppe language that entered Europe at 2800-3500 BC how come we see so many connections with Summerian?
that means either IE as steppe language enter Summeria much before,
or Summerian enter steppe before the above dates.
or IE was a neighbor or passed from Summeria.

ElHorsto
16-01-13, 17:56
ok I will not connect the noun μεγαλειον with Gal

but lets the other
Greek Μεγα (me ga = big )
Greek Γιγα (gi ga = giant)
means root -ga is connected with the meaning of Big

as we see again we find in 2 words the ga missing the l,
comparing with Slavic Golyam and Summerian Gal, do you believe is a diabolic co-insidence?

Golyam seems not to be slavic. According to google translator only Bulgarian and Macedonian use this word. Slavs use other words.

Taranis
16-01-13, 18:35
I have moved this discussion offtopic because it departs from the original thread topic. The original thread can be still found here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28300-Are-R1a-and-R1b-really-Indo-Europeans).


True, but how you explain that word Akka = King in Akkadian, is acha -aga -sach in IE?

"akka" is not the Akkadian word for 'king'. Wherever source you got that from, it's wrong: the actual Akkadian word for king is "malku", which is a cognate with Arabic "malik".


I agree, I use no coherent methodology,

As a German proverb goes, self-awareness is the first step towards betterment.

Yetos
17-01-13, 00:01
Golyam seems not to be slavic. According to google translator only Bulgarian and Macedonian use this word. Slavs use other words.

Then the word golyam since is not turkic is Thracian? that makes more clear way from Anatolia than from North Welico - Veliko

also the word Wel-ico or Wiel-ico which is the North Slavic what difference has?
W many times in many IE languages transforms to Γ.

So Golyam and Wel-iko is the same word and you know it. in Greek alphabet are Γολ-ιαμ(Bul) and Γελ-ικο(Poland) and Γαλ (Summerian)

So El Horsto which is the word road?
From Poland Wel -Wiel-ico to Bulgarian (or Thracian?) Golyam to Summerian Gal? or from Summerian to Poland?

ElHorsto
17-01-13, 00:23
So Golyam and Wel-iko is the same word and you know it.

in Greek alphabet are Γολ-ιαμ(Bul) and Γελ-ικο(Poland) and Γαλ (Summerian)

Interesting, I never would have expected Gol and Wel to be related. But I'm not so familiar with linguistics.

But then why do both words (velik, goliam) still exist in parallel in Bulgarian if velik is derived from goliam? I checked google translate for the english word 'great' and then both bulgarian words were listed as alternatives, whereas 'goliam' means to be physically big and 'velik' rather means greatness in a non-physical sense, similar to the difference between english 'big' and 'great'.

ElHorsto
17-01-13, 00:25
@Yetos:
Meanwhile I played more with google. Have you checked what 'gol' really means in bulgarian? It means 'naked'.

Yetos
17-01-13, 00:26
I have moved this discussion offtopic because it departs from the original thread topic. The original thread can be still found here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28300-Are-R1a-and-R1b-really-Indo-Europeans).



"akka" is not the Akkadian word for 'king'. Wherever source you got that from, it's wrong: the actual Akkadian word for king is "malku", which is a cognate with Arabic "malik".



As a German proverb goes, self-awareness is the first step towards betterment.

I agree taranis and I expect you to act as German,

from Wiki the most easy to search

The etymology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology) of a-ga-dè is unclear but not of Akkadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language) origin. Sumerian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language), Hurrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_language) and Lullubean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lullubi) etymologies have been proposed instead

a ga de = Kings nation ,
so how IE existed south of Caucas much before hettit?

I think you know what i am talking about,

Uruk and Orcho-menos are known Hattian in Greek, which later moved to Italy.

Now a good focus the word Ar-ca-dia which is the translation of Akkadia in Greek
I think Taranis you know what Arch means Greek (Arch-angel Arch-devil Αρχ-ηγος Αρχαι (rulers authorities)

So Akkadians might Be pre-Semitic but their vocabulary as the word aus = out outer exist also in IE words,
and Akka means King as you see.

Yetos
17-01-13, 01:20
misshandle

LeBrok
17-01-13, 03:57
I think you know what i am talking about,



I think I do. You mean that Greeks came from Anatolia, and the rest of IE from steppes. That's why Greek sounds like Greek to us. :grin:

Goliam is a semitic word derived from mythical Goliath, and probably entered Bulgarian and Macedonian from Bible, or Greek Orthodox teachings. Clearly it has no slavic roots.

Yetos
17-01-13, 10:20
I think I do. You mean that Greeks came from Anatolia, and the rest of IE from steppes. That's why Greek sounds like Greek to us. :grin:

Goliam is a semitic word derived from mythical Goliath, and probably entered Bulgarian and Macedonian from Bible, or Greek Orthodox teachings. Clearly it has no slavic roots.

hahaha nice joke Le brok,

Goliath is a Pelasgian name,
Goliam is not Semitic but Summerian relative,
Summerian language is not Semitic
no ever linguist connect Semitic with Summerian,
mainly with Nostradic or Hurro-Urartian
mean close enough to steppe languages or to IE, but never to Semitic,

and since exist in Bulgarian and Slavic Makedonian could be from Thracian origin, Before Slavs
which as you say about Greeks could mean the same, that except Greeks, Thracian could also came from Anatolia,

besides the difference among Wieli and Goli is just an aspisration, Polish Wieli could be same with Bulgarian Goli.
a sound that aspirates dropes or shifts,

8mike
17-01-13, 13:59
@Yetos:
Meanwhile I played more with google. Have you checked what 'gol' really means in bulgarian? It means 'naked'.

i think it is cognate with OHG "kalo" (naked)

LeBrok
18-01-13, 01:12
hahaha nice joke Le brok,

Goliath is a Pelasgian name,
Goliam is not Semitic but Summerian relative,
Summerian language is not Semitic
no ever linguist connect Semitic with Summerian,
mainly with Nostradic or Hurro-Urartian
mean close enough to steppe languages or to IE, but never to Semitic,

and since exist in Bulgarian and Slavic Makedonian could be from Thracian origin, Before Slavs
which as you say about Greeks could mean the same, that except Greeks, Thracian could also came from Anatolia,

besides the difference among Wieli and Goli is just an aspisration, Polish Wieli could be same with Bulgarian Goli.
a sound that aspirates dropes or shifts,

I wouldn't put much weight in name Goliath, whatever the original name was, it was written by Jews in their alphabet and many years later from oral records (and we know how reliable it is), then translated to Greek, probably with another spelling twist, than to english, and we all know how crafty English with names. Original name might have been Gandolth lol, or Gorat, or Gorian if it had slavic roots, the man big like a mountain. BTW, it's Garut in arabic.


Wieli and Goli is just an aspisration, Polish Wieli could be same with Bulgarian Goli.
No, in both languages Wieli means big or many, Goli means something naked.

Yetos
18-01-13, 02:12
I wouldn't put much weight in name Goliath, whatever the original name was, it was written by Jews in their alphabet and many years later from oral records (and we know how reliable it is), then translated to Greek, probably with another spelling twist, than to english, and we all know how crafty English with names. Original name might have been Gandolth lol, or Gorat, or Gorian if it had slavic roots, the man big like a mountain. BTW, it's Garut in arabic.


No, in both languages Wieli means big or many, Goli means something naked.

the translation of O' gives Γολιαθ and he was a giant
goliam of south Slavic also means big gigantic
so it is obvious the same sound and meaning,
it can be explained by using Summerian and Hattian
Gal + (h)ath

remember in Greek the word for human is Ανθρωπος a(n)th+ ro (ru) +-pos
etruscan if Hatian language is also ath+ru+can

so goliath is Gal+(h)ath = big man = giant
no Gandalf no Golum

Le Brok NO, try again the word Golyam in Cyrillic голям, it does not mean naked
there is your answer
wielki голям are more close among them than Μεγας Magnus Big Grande madh mets
(except if is relative to Turkish Soyltan Soylu Ulu = noble?)


golyam and wielky could be from Thracian to Slavic?

nordicwarrior
18-01-13, 02:57
Please be aware that I know almost nothing about ancient languages, so I may sound like a bull in a China shop here. But what about these terms that seem to have similiar roots...

1. Baltic and Balkans-- I know that the Baltic was originally Mare Suebian (named after the Suebi tribe)
2. Goliath and Goy--the term used by Jews/and or Yiddish speakers to denote non-Jews

Is there something to these?

LeBrok
18-01-13, 03:29
Le Brok NO, try again the word Golyam in Cyrillic голям, it does not mean naked
there is your answer
wielki голям are more close among them than Μεγας Magnus Big Grande
golyam and wielky could be from Thracian to Slavic?

Geez Yetos stop this, Wielki doesn't have anything to do with Goliam, if it sounds close, it's only in your head.
And it didn't enter all slavic but only Bulgarians, and nobody knows when. Your wild speculations don't help your cause, so far you didn't manage to convince anyone.
Nobody said that Goliam means naked, naked was a response to your "root" Goli. Do you see the difference?

I don't even remember why you brought it up, what relevance does it make? Are you proving that because of Golyam IE came from Anatolia? You might need way more than that. Why are you trying to connect it to Slavic, we know that Slavs didn't come from Anatolia, right?

Yetos
18-01-13, 08:33
Geez Yetos stop this, Wielki doesn't have anything to do with Goliam, if it sounds close, it's only in your head.
And it didn't enter all slavic but only Bulgarians, and nobody knows when. Your wild speculations don't help your cause, so far you didn't manage to convince anyone.
Nobody said that Goliam means naked, naked was a response to your "root" Goli. Do you see the difference?

I don't even remember why you brought it up, what relevance does it make? Are you proving that because of Golyam IE came from Anatolia? You might need way more than that. Why are you trying to connect it to Slavic, we know that Slavs didn't come from Anatolia, right?

why you always do that to me,

simply in IE vocabulary we find connection with Summerian and Turkic and Uraloid languages.
but in Greece wich has almost 0% Altaic component that Turkic is missing,
so how come IE came from steppe when Turkic element are missing from Greek, but Summerian exists?

that is my question.

LeBrok
18-01-13, 10:44
Simple. Turkic homeland was far away in far East Asia, check the maps of Turkic homeland, and they started growing in power and spreading only after year 0, in AD period. By that time IE where already in Europe for 2 thousand years. We are talking about big distances in space and time. By the same token, you can start looking for Chinese words in IE vocabulary.
There is no chance that Turks could influence IE language, till they got close during times of Ottoman empire. And they only influenced Balkans.

Also, I don't think there is any Sumerian influence over Slavic, Germanic or even Celtic IE spectrum. On other hand you will find Sumerian influence on Greek, or protogreek, because of close distance and contacts about 4,000 years ago.

To prove your point find same Sumerian words, not only in Greek or even Balkans, but also in other IE branches. If they lived in Anatolia close to Sumerians, which was powerful and very influential, they must have learned many, and I mean many, Sumerian words. Where are these words?!

Taranis
18-01-13, 14:10
the translation of O' gives Γολιαθ and he was a giant
goliam of south Slavic also means big gigantic
so it is obvious the same sound and meaning,
it can be explained by using Summerian and Hattian
Gal + (h)ath

remember in Greek the word for human is Ανθρωπος a(n)th+ ro (ru) +-pos
etruscan if Hatian language is also ath+ru+can

so goliath is Gal+(h)ath = big man = giant
no Gandalf no Golum

Le Brok NO, try again the word Golyam in Cyrillic голям, it does not mean naked
there is your answer
wielki голям are more close among them than Μεγας Magnus Big Grande madh mets
(except if is relative to Turkish Soyltan Soylu Ulu = noble?)


golyam and wielky could be from Thracian to Slavic?

Yetos, stop this. What you're doing has nothing to do with linguistics. You cherrypick words from languages from quite different parts of the world, from different time slices, and from these you make assumptions which have no basis what so ever. You might as well try to convince us that Albanian is a Native American language, such a claim wouldn't be any more outlandish. Worse yet, you randomly break apart words even if these do not represent compounds. I've called this 'magic word dismantling' before, and you're not the first to do this. It has nothing to do with linguistic methodology, it's just pseudoscience. The worst part is that you're just confusing other board members, and you regularly jump into topics and start with these wild comparisons that are really completely out of context. For their well-being, I must ask you to stop this.

And frankly, consider yourself hereby officially warned.


Please be aware that I know almost nothing about ancient languages, so I may sound like a bull in a China shop here. But what about these terms that seem to have similiar roots...

1. Baltic and Balkans-- I know that the Baltic was originally Mare Suebian (named after the Suebi tribe)
2. Goliath and Goy--the term used by Jews/and or Yiddish speakers to denote non-Jews

Is there something to these?

The word "Balkans" is of Turkic origin. There's also a "Balkan" mountains in Turkmenistan.

The word "Baltic" derives from the Baltic word for "white" (Latvian "balts", Lithuanian "baltas") and has cognates in other branches of Indo-European (all from a common root *bhel-), including:

- Albanian "ballë" (forehead)
- Celtic (the Irish festival name 'Beltaine', deity names "Belisama" and "Belenos")
- Greek "phalakos" (bald)
- English "bale" (antiquated word for 'fire')
- Slavic (Polish "biały", which means 'white' just like in Latvian/Lithuanian, also for instance found in the town name "Bialystok").

But, I might explain here how things work: the basic idea of the comparative method in linguistics is this (I'm trying to explain this as simple as possible):

- a sound X in language A corresponds regularly to sound Y in language B.

- when a change in a language happens, it affects ALL words in the vocabulary of a language, with no exceptions.

- if there are exceptions, these are governed by their own set of rules (for example, a change happens only at the beginning of a word, etc.)

- languages have no memory of changes that happened to them in the past. That is, if you have the sound A and B changed to sound C and then later changed into a sound D, the language will not distinguish wether sound C arose from A or B.




English
Old Irish
Latin


father
athair
pater


fish
íasc
piscis


foot
ed*
pes (plural "pedes")



*Note that "ed" has it's meaning changed to "distance" or "interval", which makes sense considering that in English the length unit "foot" exists, which if you think about it has a similar meaning. What you can see is that English (a Germanic language) *f- corresponds regularly to Latin *p- and to a missing letter in Old Irish. If we now compare the word for 'father' in other Indo-European languages (Armenian "hayr", Greek "pateras", Hindi "pita", Persian "pedar"), we find that *p is the most common and most probably the original condition, which is preserved in most branches of the Indo-European languages, but shifted to *f in the Germanic languages, shifted to *h in Armenian, and disappearing in the Celtic languages.

And that's, in a nutshell, how it works. :smile:

Zeus10
18-01-13, 16:55
4 words 1 meaning
the original Greek is ανθος (flower)
but in modern Greek we see the word λουλουδiα (mostly plural) especially in thracian traditional sonds,
in West Europe again mostly in plural we see Lillies and simmilar
in Turkic we see the Lale - lalle as flower,
in Summerian is Liligi (clear plural)
so the word is what?
IE and enter Summerian and Turkic?
Turkic and enter Summerian and IE?


The word origin is the Albanian noun: lule=flower
The real root of the word is the syllable lu which carries a primitive meaning of movement (growing, blooming):
b-loo-m=lu-lëzoj

Zeus10
18-01-13, 17:43
- languages have no memory of changes that happened to them in the past. That is, if you have the sound A and B changed to sound C and then later changed into a sound D, the language will not distinguish wether sound C arose from A or B.




English

Old Irish

Latin



father

athair

pater















I disagree with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

Taranis
18-01-13, 18:54
The word origin is the Albanian noun: lule=flower
The real root of the word is the syllable lu which carries a primitive meaning of movement (growing, blooming):
b-loo-m=lu-lëzoj


I dissagre with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

So after I have scolded one gentleman who practices magic word dismantlement, the next one steps in? It must be Friday... :laughing:

Zeus10
18-01-13, 19:14
So after I have scolded one gentleman who practices magic word dismantlement, the next one steps in? It must be Friday... :laughing:

Must be a conspiracy against you.

LeBrok
18-01-13, 19:19
I dissagre with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

This actually makes you and Taranis right. The beggining of english father or spanish padre started with tata in proto IE, or maybe papa. You mentioned how it started, and Taranis showed later evolution through IE branches. You're both right.

The only mistake you're making is that you are sort of implying that the word started indepedently in all the IE branches. If you're right, then tell us what word for father was used in proto IE, did they have one? If it was also tata, then why did they need to invent it interdependently again?

Actually to make is interesting, there is one universal word on this planet. The first and easiest word to say for kids, mama. There are only handful exceptions.

The rest of simple (child's) sounds are used differently around the globe, even among IEs.
tata is more universal among slavs. Around the globe you find also papa, baba, dada in use as well to describe father.

To help your onomatopeic transformation cause, please match these for different languages, not mentioning all languages. You'll see that they are not universal as mama.

tata - father
baba - grandmother
dada - grandfather

LeBrok
18-01-13, 19:39
To prove your point find same Sumerian words, not only in Greek or even Balkans, but also in other IE branches. If they lived in Anatolia close to Sumerians, which was powerful and very influential, they must have learned many, and I mean many, Sumerian words. Where are these words?!

To be clear, I'm not implying that IE, R1bs, couldn't enter Europe through Anatolia. They most likely did, at least some of them. What I'm saying is that they didn't stay in Anatolia for a long time, that Anatolia is not their origin, their homeland.

Zeus10
18-01-13, 19:46
If you're right, then tell us whatword for father was used in proto IE, did they have one?

The problem is that I take the PIE theory with a great disbelief, therefore I can not answer your question.


The rest of simple (child's) sounds are used differently around theglobe, even among IEs.
tata is more universal among slavs. Around the globe you find also papa, baba,dada in use as well to describe father.

To help your onomatopeic transformation cause, please match these for differentlanguages, not mentioning all languages. You'll see that they are not universalas mama.

tata - father
baba - grandmother
dada - grandfather

tata & dada
also
papa & baba

must be count as one, because they are version of the same word involving voiceless and voiced pairs of consonants , such as [p b], [td], [k ɡ], [q ɢ]

LeBrok
18-01-13, 20:19
tata & dada
also
papa & baba

must be count as one, because they are version of the same word involving voiceless and voiced pairs of consonants , such as [p b], [td], [k ɡ], [q ɢ]

Good point. So how can you get from baba to ate in Albanian? Any relation you can explain?

Zeus10
18-01-13, 20:39
Good point. So how can you get from baba to ate in Albanian? Any relation you can explain?

Apparently we have a pair of onomatopoeic originated words:

pa--pa~ba--ba
and
ta--ta~da--da

We have all witnessed babbled by a child. The fact that we find these onomotopoeias combined in one word in some languages tells me that those word are human manipulated.
It's different when it comes to monosyllabic words, there is no doubt that the ""Greek" word ποι-(έω)=make~do(eng) with a clear onomapotopoic origin, has been spoken by the same people who pronounce it as boj(dialect)=bëj
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/b%C3%ABj

always involving voiceless and voiced pairs of consonants:

ποι(Greek)=boj(Alb)

Yetos
18-01-13, 23:01
Simple. Turkic homeland was far away in far East Asia, check the maps of Turkic homeland, and they started growing in power and spreading only after year 0, in AD period. By that time IE where already in Europe for 2 thousand years. We are talking about big distances in space and time. By the same token, you can start looking for Chinese words in IE vocabulary.
There is no chance that Turks could influence IE language, till they got close during times of Ottoman empire. And they only influenced Balkans.

Also, I don't think there is any Sumerian influence over Slavic, Germanic or even Celtic IE spectrum. On other hand you will find Sumerian influence on Greek, or protogreek, because of close distance and contacts about 4,000 years ago.

To prove your point find same Sumerian words, not only in Greek or even Balkans, but also in other IE branches. If they lived in Anatolia close to Sumerians, which was powerful and very influential, they must have learned many, and I mean many, Sumerian words. Where are these words?!

Le brok since you want more
what about Brittish East and out and germanic aus Greek εξω (eksoo or eksu), in bilingual (both Summerian akkadian) is and assu and in Greek Eos Εως.
want more words?

rabishu simmilar robber
Din-gir simmilar Dias Dio Deus (as spirit)
Ehus simmilar οικος house
Heru γυρω arround
edu εν one
sessu εξι six

I don't no, Taranis order me or he ask me to stop, but its much more,

that is my last Le brok and taranis watch it carefully,
Summerian gissu = wizzard like magician, good spell shadow-spirit,
Summerian Digir Dimeer = Deity, in Akkadian Illu Ilu
Hettits' Deity Illuwanga (god of light) is after Akkadian vocabulary wich is the Semitic El
so how come IE illum is from steppe since we find it as Akkadian deity for light

I think I express my shelf the best I could, no need more words.

Yetos
18-01-13, 23:07
I disagree with this. This word differs from language to language, but what do they have in common is the cluster at(ad):
πατέρας(new greek)
father(eng)
отец(Russian)
padre(ital)
vater(german)
vader(dutch)
pater(mycenian)
padre(Spanish)

There is only one language which has this unchanged and this is Albanian:
at-ë=father
Apparently this is the original word for every old Europian, and that's the result of an onomatopeic transformation:
ta-ta-ta
which is the a child babble.

Zeus are you in subject? we speak about the connection of Summerian and IE,

the word mamma exist also in Summerian
the word liligi exist also in Summerian,
so is Albanian also mother language of Summerian except IE?

MOESAN
18-01-13, 23:57
Zeus are you in subject? we speak about the connection of Summerian and IE,

the word mamma exist also in Summerian
the word liligi exist also in Summerian,
so is Albanian also mother language of Summerian except IE?

sure this discussion is coming into details and apparently far from topic, but sometimes some hazardous ways of thinking have to be corrected and then we need details:
for 'bel' : "bright", "white", "pale", "fair", germanic's have a lot of derived words: bleach, bleek, bleich + blême, blafard (2 french words of germanic origin), blau, blue, blauw, blaa + blank >> blanc, bianco, blanco, branco (other "latin" words of germanic origin)
concerning 'father'/'mother', some roots seam showing a *'-tr' suffixe sticked to *'pa-' and *'ma-' which seam onomatopeic components -
I 'm not sure but I red somewhere hittit had 'attah' or 'hattah' for "father' - could the slavic words 'otac', 'otiec' and so on come from this word? breton, welsh AND romanian have 'tad', 'tat': onomatopea there too? (tat-a) -
so there we see apparently different clusters of naming for 'father' (patr/tat/otat) but maybe the onomatopea was the first well?
for the albanian word, I did not know it so I say little - but, Zeuss, I conjure you, stop making the Noah 's language of your respectable albanian (I would be glad to learn a bit about it, by the way) -
sometimes I have the feeling we have some forumers suffering hormonal or "overvitaminal" diseases (joke)...

MOESAN
18-01-13, 23:58
'ate' (albanian?) could be related to 'otatj'/'otac' ???

Yetos
19-01-13, 00:17
sure this discussion is coming into details and apparently far from topic, but sometimes some hazardous ways of thinking have to be corrected and then we need details:
for 'bel' : "bright", "white", "pale", "fair", germanic's have a lot of derived words: bleach, bleek, bleich + blême, blafard (2 french words of germanic origin), blau, blue, blauw, blaa + blank >> blanc, bianco, blanco, branco (other "latin" words of germanic origin)
concerning 'father'/'mother', some roots seam showing a *'-tr' suffixe sticked to *'pa-' and *'ma-' which seam onomatopeic components -
I 'm not sure but I red somewhere hittit had 'attah' or 'hattah' for "father' - could the slavic words 'otac', 'otiec' and so on come from this word? breton, welsh AND romanian have 'tad', 'tat': onomatopea there too? (tat-a) -
so there we see apparently different clusters of naming for 'father' (patr/tat/otat) but maybe the onomatopea was the first well?
for the albanian word, I did not know it so I say little - but, Zeuss, I conjure you, stop making the Noah 's language of your respectable albanian (I would be glad to learn a bit about it, by the way) -
sometimes I have the feeling we have some forumers suffering hormonal or "overvitaminal" diseases (joke)...


why you quote me?

LeBrok
19-01-13, 01:52
'ate' (albanian?) could be related to 'otatj'/'otac' ???

Exactly. To add more otec and tata are common in slavic. Most likely otec has it roots in tata. Albanian baba can't be connected with Ate, plus baba is not very common in IE for father. Interestingly BABA is also used in Turkic and through Middle East in India. I wonder if it correlates with different Albanian dialects and Ottoman influence, or even some Albanian minorities connected to Middle East, long time ago of course?

nordicwarrior
19-01-13, 01:59
Thank you for the clarification Taranis. I've been watching videos on polyglots hoping to pick up kernels of knowledge about various languages because I can't speak any from the Old World--apparently Farsi is a favorite of some polyglots because of the deep history of the people in that area and also because it offers insights into surrounding languages (Turkish, Arabic)

Zeus10
19-01-13, 20:53
Exactly. To add more otec and tata are common in slavic. Most likely otec has it roots in tata. Albanian baba can't be connected with Ate, plus baba is not very common in IE for father. Interestingly BABA is also used in Turkic and through Middle East in India. I wonder if it correlates with different Albanian dialects and Ottoman influence, or even some Albanian minorities connected to Middle East, long time ago of course?

LeBrok, I think you have not understood me at all. These very basic onomatopoeic originated words, would never be loans because they come ready from the nature for every family hearth spoken language. Furthermore a fully developed natural language like Albanian will never loan such words from a vehicular originated stalling language like Serbian. The very structure of the words in Albanian with an elegante syllabic adherence into it is not meant to borrow the same words which are just loaded with parasitive suffixes. The oppositte might be true, the Serbians who were not even a distinct ethnos (when the Albanians had thousants of years elaborating their language in the family hearth) borrowed that word from them.

MOESAN
20-01-13, 00:58
to YETOS
I quoted you but in fact I was answering to more than one, ZEUSS among them
all the way, i'm not "tackling" anybody for my pleasure, I'm just trying to keep things on the right way
I think me too that there are a lot of "magic linguistic" sometimes on these threads, and that people, you among them, present hypothesis (sometimes very staggering) as well established facts - I play sometimes, as you, at the etymologic sport, but I keep cautious and it is necessary, I think -
to come back to the thread, I have no solid hypothesis yet about the I-E origin of all the Y-R1b in Europe nor about the precise place of origin of proto-I-E language - even for Y-R1a...
I wonder if Y-R1b would not have sended 2 different waves in C and W Europe, even..., one through Donau river, one along S Baltic shores, so ???
have a good night

nordicwarrior
20-01-13, 06:20
Admittedly I am no expert on Old World languages--but I have noticed a trend in the majority of these verbage threads that link language to y-DNA lineage. Dumb question...what about maternal DNA influences? Unfortunately, slaves were common war booty throughout these more brutal times, surely the captured mothers would have had an impact on their child's linguistics.

As we gather more and more genetic data, and are hopefully able to date y-haplogroup movements through tribal histories... maybe the mitochondrial input will also help explain language developments?

Just throwing it out there... it is the whole concept of mother tongue afterall (emphasis on mother).

nordicwarrior
20-01-13, 06:31
I know mtd DNA is "fuzzier" (at this point anyway), but it would interesting to see a language map centered exclusively around maternal groupings, and then one with both y and mtd tribes if that's possible. The 125 A.D. Roman map on wikimedia is so effective because it combines info. from multiple sources. It'd be--maptastic.

Taranis
20-01-13, 11:47
I was originally going to post something in response for your earlier statement about the words for "father" in various Indo-European languages, but I think that's besides the point, since, as you said, you 'don't believe into the IE theory':


The problem is that I take the PIE theory with a great disbelief, therefore I can not answer your question.


LeBrok, I think you have not understood me at all. These very basic onomatopoeic originated words, would never be loans because they come ready from the nature for every family hearth spoken language. Furthermore a fully developed natural language like Albanian will never loan such words from a vehicular originated stalling language like Serbian. The very structure of the words in Albanian with an elegante syllabic adherence into it is not meant to borrow the same words which are just loaded with parasitive suffixes. The oppositte might be true, the Serbians who were not even a distinct ethnos (when the Albanians had thousants of years elaborating their language in the family hearth) borrowed that word from them.

So if I may summarize (I might apologize beforehand if I am very far off with my interpretation, but I think I can't be too far off):

You say that the Albanian language is "pure" or "superior" (your wording is "family hearth language") that "will never take words" from "inferior" (your wording is "vehicular") languages. This is not a hypothesis, for you it is a foregone conclusion. It's a tautological fallacy: Albanian is a "pure" language, therefore it's "unchanged" and cannot absorb "impure" words.

I further understand that you must be abhorred by the mainstream view of linguistics on the Albanian language: it has absorbed a very large number of loanwords from other languages across a large stretch of history. So by your own standards, this would make Albanian and "impure" or "inferior" language. Hence, the incentive, or should I say, imperative, for you to create your own world view.

You probably find it unbearable that Latin and Greek have a written record stretching back ca. 2500 and 3500 years respectively, whereas Albanian has only a record of ca. 600-700 years, since you have spend so much time and effort here to argue how Latin and Greek were purportedly "made-up" languages. Especially Greek must be particularly grivious for you (because Greece neighbours Albania?) with the attestation of Linear B in the Bronze Age, since you've argued on several occasions how the language in Linear B "must not be Greek" (it certainly must not according to your world view), and how Ventris and Chadwick who deciphered Linear B were purportedly charlatans (well according to your view, they certainly have to be!). Removing Linear B, conviniently, makes the Greek language roughly half a millennium younger. In much the same manner, conventional history must be a lie for you and every historian and linguist since at least the Renaissance must be part of a massive conspiracy (for which, as I recall, you blame "the Church").

Please, don't get me wrong: I probably find as much as you do that it is a predicament that Albanian has such a late record in history and that it's origins and relationship with other languages are so complicated, but the way I see it, that's no ground for charlatanry, pseudoscience and belief into far-reaching conspiracies, and to come here and to try to present it as a valid scientific theory: there is no real scientific insight to be gained from your ideas: you have the foregone conclusion that Albanian must be "superior", that all other (European) languages are "inferior", and the only realization that you offer us is that according to you purportedly every word can be dismantled into Albanian words. But you don't actually explain anything with this. It's much like a Creationist saying "the world is 6000 years old and God did it", but completely failing explain the present-day distribution and diversity of life on Earth. He doesn't explain it because he doesn't care about it, since he has the foregone conclusion that "God did it, and humanity is the center piece of Creation". You give us the impression that you are much the same with regard for Albanian.

Yetos
20-01-13, 12:35
LeBrok, I think you have not understood me at all. These very basic onomatopoeic originated words, would never be loans because they come ready from the nature for every family hearth spoken language. Furthermore a fully developed natural language like Albanian will never loan such words from a vehicular originated stalling language like Serbian. The very structure of the words in Albanian with an elegante syllabic adherence into it is not meant to borrow the same words which are just loaded with parasitive suffixes. The oppositte might be true, the Serbians who were not even a distinct ethnos (when the Albanians had thousants of years elaborating their language in the family hearth) borrowed that word from them.


Zeus modern scientists are even doubt if Albanians are Illyrians and if Albanian is Old IE or a language by it shelf,
Modern scientists Give Albanian as Linguistic mix of other IE languages and Turkic,
it is consider as one new IE language build upon a mix of older with Turkic, who gave new aspiration to the older IE

search newly dated work of Oliver Jens Schmit.

kamani
20-01-13, 18:29
Modern scientists Give Albanian as Linguistic mix of other IE languages and Turkic
We have got to be careful with wild general statements like this based on occupation time. Because by the same logic, I can claim modern greek is a mix of turkish and pre-ottoman greek.

Yetos
20-01-13, 20:38
We have got to be careful with wild general statements like this based on occupation time. Because by the same logic, I can claim modern greek is a mix of turkish and pre-ottoman greek.

I don't understand you.

IS that a Threat?

go ahead,
open a thread and prove it, I am not afraid, and your post seems like blackmail.

if you can go ahead,
lets see your theory also.
I just said that modern sciences are giving quite different dimensions than the ones of 1850-1920 that Consider Albanian as Illyrian or Dorians etc etc,

don't Threat me, next time, if you have something, go make a thread and claim what ever, who cares about, I have you able by your posts here to fabricate data and twist texts.


I just said what Oliver Jens Schmit Phd from Vienna say.

PS
Besides I never deny that in modern Greek exist Turkish words, what do you wxpect after centuries of occupation, is miracle that Greek are spoken since today.

MOESAN
20-01-13, 21:04
SO, everybody can create is own thread to be sure of no contradiction - surely knowledge is going to progress very quickly like that - I think I am going to create some hundreds of threads, like that surely I shall have the last word in some of them?

what is sure: I agree with myself and the inverse is true (joke? well, I'm going todrink some fresh water after having swallowed a full box of pills, for my nerves! try of humor...)
nobody threaten nobody here (we are to far one from another) -
I repeat: chomit sioul hag evit traoù fresk ("restez calmes et buvez frais")

Yetos
20-01-13, 21:12
Yetos, stop this. What you're doing has nothing to do with linguistics. You cherrypick words from languages from quite different parts of the world, from different time slices, and from these you make assumptions which have no basis what so ever. You might as well try to convince us that Albanian is a Native American language, such a claim wouldn't be any more outlandish. Worse yet, you randomly break apart words even if these do not represent compounds. I've called this 'magic word dismantling' before, and you're not the first to do this. It has nothing to do with linguistic methodology, it's just pseudoscience. The worst part is that you're just confusing other board members, and you regularly jump into topics and start with these wild comparisons that are really completely out of context. For their well-being, I must ask you to stop this.

Taranis
Yes I did a cherry pick of words but not from all,

from a basket of words thathave simmilar sounds and meanings among Summerian Akkadian and IE,
That is something that many linguists do, and you know that with same way IE theory started,
I just pick 3-5 words, But these are not the only ones,
Now.
by watching Summerian Akkadian IE Lexicons I watch some simmilarity,
so that similarity can be Diabolic coinsidence, but how much?
if the words are not few but much more, that shows connectivity (not relative)

a good for example if Hettits enter from Steppe to minor Asia how come they have Akkadian (semitic?) Deity Illuwanka? how come we find words far away from Summeria in IE vocabulary,

I know you can tell me the example of wine and οινος, true, but won't you think is much more?
for example the word house οικος and ehus can follow the rules of the wine example?

that can be explained (at least for me, and now, tommorow will bring more discoveries) by:

1) early Neolithic farming was Summerian speaking and left vocabulary later to steppe people?
2) IE was a language spoken close to Summerian and spread to steppe before arsenic bronze?
3) Summerians were also steppe people?

I repeat the cherry pick as you called it I did it as an example, I do not have the time to write down all words,
besides that is a good Idea for a young linguist
I do not want to claim ISOs or Phds

kamani
21-01-13, 07:34
whereas Albanian has only a record of ca. 600-700 years

The first coherent writen german is from the 9-th century AD. Until the 13-th century AD, latin was the language used in germany for all administrative matters. Does this mean that now we should start to question who are the germans? Should germans feel inferior to greeks because of this?

Yetos
21-01-13, 10:48
SO, everybody can create is own thread to be sure of no contradiction - surely knowledge is going to progress very quickly like that - I think I am going to create some hundreds of threads, like that surely I shall have the last word in some of them?

what is sure: I agree with myself and the inverse is true (joke? well, I'm going todrink some fresh water after having swallowed a full box of pills, for my nerves! try of humor...)
nobody threaten nobody here (we are to far one from another) -
I repeat: chomit sioul hag evit traoù fresk ("restez calmes et buvez frais")


hahaha,
1 box is not enough in modern world,
you need at least 30 pills each day,

Taranis
21-01-13, 15:04
Taranis
Yes I did a cherry pick of words but not from all,

from a basket of words thathave simmilar sounds and meanings among Summerian Akkadian and IE,
That is something that many linguists do, and you know that with same way IE theory started,
I just pick 3-5 words, But these are not the only ones,
Now.
by watching Summerian Akkadian IE Lexicons I watch some simmilarity,
so that similarity can be Diabolic coinsidence, but how much?
if the words are not few but much more, that shows connectivity (not relative)

a good for example if Hettits enter from Steppe to minor Asia how come they have Akkadian (semitic?) Deity Illuwanka? how come we find words far away from Summeria in IE vocabulary,

I know you can tell me the example of wine and οινος, true, but won't you think is much more?
for example the word house οικος and ehus can follow the rules of the wine example?

that can be explained (at least for me, and now, tommorow will bring more discoveries) by:

1) early Neolithic farming was Summerian speaking and left vocabulary later to steppe people?
2) IE was a language spoken close to Summerian and spread to steppe before arsenic bronze?
3) Summerians were also steppe people?

I repeat the cherry pick as you called it I did it as an example, I do not have the time to write down all words,
besides that is a good Idea for a young linguist
I do not want to claim ISOs or Phds

Just because something has a similar sound (that's debatable too) and similar meaning does not automantically mean it is actually a cognate. To pick an example, take English "name" and Japanese "namae". The way you work, these two words should be obviously cognates (they are not), but Welsh "enw" (which is an actual cognate of English "name"!) would evade your notice because it obviously looks to dissimilar. The only way to avoid this is to consider which sound corresponds regularly to which sound, and which sound changes happened in a language's past: you wouldn't automatically recognize Greek "oinos" (οινος) and Hebrew "jajn" (יינ) as cognates, but if I tell you that in ancient Greek, *w > Ø and in Hebrew *w- > *j-, you get *woinos and *wajn and the similarity becomes more obvious. By the way, in the same way as "oinos" derives from an earlier "woinos", "oikos" derives from an earlier *woikos, which you can link with Latin "vicus" (village).

For instance, you made a comparison between a Russian (or otherwise Slavic) word, a Greek word (the two which are probably not even related with each other), and a Sumerian word. Do you want to argue that Sumerian was spoken in Migration Period Balkans? To demonstrate what you actually want (correspondences between PIE and Sumerian), then you should demonstrate what an ancestral PIE form was (perhaps, show reflexes in other branches of IE, such as Indo-Aryan or Germanic, and show regular sound correspondences), and then demonstrate how the PIE forms correspond regularly with the Sumerian ones.

Another frequent mistake that you and others make is that you perceive compounds where there are none and start to dismantle a word where there is nothing to do dismantle. For this, let me take an obviously nonsensical example of why such "magic word dismantlements" do not work: I will take the Gaulish deity name "Belisama". For the sake of an argument, I argue that it is Chinese in etymology, by tearing it apart as 貝力傻馬 (Bei Li Sha Ma). I could continue like this with about every Gaulish name, and at the end of the day I would argue this:

1) that modern Mandarin Chinese is unchanging and that it was spoken already 2400 years ago (wow, who knew!)
2) that there was Chinese presence in pre-Roman Gaul (sensational!).

As I said, this example is obvious nonsense, but this is how you people (Yetos, you're not the only one) draw your conclusions here.

With Sumerian (by the way, it's "Sumerian" and NOT "Summerian"), everything should be taken a bit cautious: it is the oldest attested written language, it ceased to be spoken around 4000 years ago, and everything that we know or think to know comes through the filter of Akkadian and the Cuneiform script. There is a great deal of things we do not know for certain as a result. Any language we might want to compare Sumerian to was spoken thousands of years later, which leaves an even greater room for uncertainty.

Zeus10
21-01-13, 20:27
You say that the Albanian language is "pure" or "superior" (your wording is "family hearth language") that "will never take words" from "inferior" (your wording is "vehicular") languages. This is not a hypothesis, for you it is a foregone conclusion. It's a tautological fallacy: Albanian is a "pure" language, therefore it's "unchanged" and cannot absorb "impure" words.

I never said or meant Albanian is a pure language, but at the same time I have to say that Albanian is unical among most of European languages, because has been engineered and shaped in its BASIC LEXICON in nature and longer before that religious institutions creating their languages for their brainwashing goals, entirely based on the vernacular languages. Therefore, there is no chance that Serbian отац has given Albanian ôt, the opposite might be true, like the onomatopoeic Gheg Albanian tatë has given Serbian tata.


I further understand that you must be abhorred by the mainstream view of linguistics on the Albanian language: it has absorbed a very large number of loanwords from other languages across a large stretch of history. So by your own standards, this would make Albanian and "impure" or "inferior" language. Hence, the incentive, or should I say, imperative, for you to create your own world view.

No, I admit Albanian has loaned a large number of words from some other languages, but they are not part of the core dictionary, and if so in few occasions, they have not entirely displaced the genuine Albanian words, so you always will find the original counterpart.


You probably find it unbearable that Latin and Greek have a written record stretching back ca. 2500 and 3500 years respectively, whereas Albanian has only a record of ca. 600-700 years, since you have spend so much time and effort here to argue how Latin and Greek were purportedly "made-up" languages. Especially Greek must be particularly grivious for you (because Greece neighbours Albania?) with the attestation of Linear B in the Bronze Age, since you've argued on several occasions how the language in Linear B "must not be Greek" (it certainly must not according to your world view), and how Ventris and Chadwick who deciphered Linear B were purportedly charlatans (well according to your view, they certainly have to be!). Removing Linear B, conviniently, makes the Greek language roughly half a millennium younger. In much the same manner, conventional history must be a lie for you and every historian and linguist since at least the Renaissance must be part of a massive conspiracy (for which, as I recall, you blame "the Church").

2 things:
a. You can not prove that the two languages are that old.
b. You can never prove, that those two languages are ethnic languages, meanwhile I can easily show you strong evidences that these two languages were used for religous purposes on the first place and then transmited to larger group of followers, which later would become a nation/s.


Please, don't get me wrong: I probably find as much as you do that it is a predicament that Albanian has such a late record in history and that it's origins and relationship with other languages are so complicated, but the way I see it, that's no ground for charlatanry, pseudoscience and belief into far-reaching conspiracies, and to come here and to try to present it as a valid scientific theory: there is no real scientific insight to be gained from your ideas: you have the foregone conclusion that Albanian must be "superior", that all other (European) languages are "inferior", and the only realization that you offer us is that according to you purportedly every word can be dismantled into Albanian words. But you don't actually explain anything with this. It's much like a Creationist saying "the world is 6000 years old and God did it", but completely failing explain the present-day distribution and diversity of life on Earth. He doesn't explain it because he doesn't care about it, since he has the foregone conclusion that "God did it, and humanity is the center piece of Creation". You give us the impression that you are much the same with regard for Albanian.

You never ask the youth to show the remote past of an elder.

LeBrok
21-01-13, 20:46
...before that religious institutions creating their languages for their brainwashing...

the languages were used for religous purposes ...


I find it highly ironic that we hear this (critique) from a guy name Zeus, using... language. Are you trying to brainwash us too?


What is your answer to this:
Why do Albanians have dialects, instead of one uniform language?

Zeus10
21-01-13, 22:30
I find it highly ironic that we hearthis (critique) from a guy name Zeus, using... language. Are you trying tobrainwash us too?

My ancestors' Divinity was the symbol of the Sun, light, day and brightness. He was called DI by which we name the day(dita), the light(drita), and the knowledge(dija). He was nothing alike the fearful Gods of Medieval terror, he was the light and was replaced by the obscurantism, he was the beloved teacher of the humanity and was replaced by the mysticism.


What is your answer to this:
Why do Albanians have dialects, instead of one uniform language?

The dialects are an inevitable phenomenon in the life of a language. The differences in regional and social patterns of a nation will be reflected in the the speech too, but this diversity of the speech patterns by no means determines a different DNA of the language.

MOESAN
21-01-13, 23:16
ouf! I'm well (I take now 60 medical pills everyday, thank to yetos...
left aside first human language qualification for albanian and wild hacking words as etymology, the question here is still interesting;
who can make here a list of akkadian or considered sumerian words (with translation!) - and then everyone of us will do his mind himself - thank beforehand.

LeBrok
22-01-13, 00:07
The dialects are an inevitable phenomenon in the life of a language. The differences in regional and social patterns of a nation will be reflected in the the speech too, but this diversity of the speech patterns by no means determines a different DNA of the language.

How old do you think Albanian language is?
Let's assume that Homo Sapience/Homo Erectus started using speech about 300k years ago, Cro-Magnon (Early European Modern Human) existed in Europe since 40k ago, Fully Modern Europeans, showed up/evolved and substantially increased in numbers 10 thousand years ago, end of ice age and beginning of herding and farming.

Zeus10
22-01-13, 00:53
How old do you think Albanian language is?
Let's assume that Homo Sapience/Homo Erectus started using speech about 300k years ago, Cro-Magnon (Early European Modern Human) existed in Europe since 40k ago, Fully Modern Europeans, showed up/evolved and substantially increased in numbers 10 thousand years ago, end of ice age and beginning of herding and farming.

I am not a Darwinist but I won't pose myself to have any knowledge about the prehistory. All what I am sure of, is that what we name 'nation' in the past were nowhere alike the modern nation. In regards to Albanians, I am inclined to believe they have had a relatively pure ethnic history, and during their existance they were distinguished among others for their ethnic language their indiference for the mystical religions and as a naturally vicious and martial race. I think at least in the Balkans was nobody before them to attest their antiquity.

LeBrok
22-01-13, 01:52
I am not a Darwinist but I won't pose myself to have any knowledge about the prehistory. All what I am sure of, is that what we name 'nation' in the past were nowhere alike the modern nation. In regards to Albanians, I am inclined to believe they have had a relatively pure ethnic history, and during their existance they were distinguished among others for their ethnic language their indiference for the mystical religions and as a naturally vicious and martial race. I think at least in the Balkans was nobody before them to attest their antiquity.

Wow, that's refreshing...So if Albanians didn't evolve from other proto-people (Darwinism would imply evolution, which you're against), how did they start as people/culture/nation? Does your mythical religion has something to do with it, the Di or Zeus?

nordicwarrior
22-01-13, 01:57
Let's assume that Homo Sapience/Homo Erectus started using speech about 300k years ago, Cro-Magnon (Early European Modern Human) existed in Europe since 40k ago, Fully Modern Europeans, showed up/evolved and substantially increased in numbers 10 thousand years ago, end of ice age and beginning of herding and farming.

Oh boy, whatever would we have done without you hyper-sophisticated R's? I bet we wouldn't be able to speak to this day without you teaching us.

kamani
22-01-13, 02:13
Wow, that's refreshing...So if Albanians didn't evolve from other proto-people (Darwinism would imply evolution, which you're against), how did they start as people/culture/nation? Does your mythical religion has something to do with it, the Di or Zeus?

maybe I can give an answer to your question,
Genetically speaking about albanians:
E V-13, J2: neolithic farmers, pelasgians
R1b, R1a: Illyrians
If R1b is also neolithic in europe, which a lot of studies claim, then albanian does have a shot at
being a source language for other IE languages (maybe from 3-4th millenium BC source). Its strategic location in the balkans does help this hypothesis too; west european R1b comes from the balkans.
Archeologically speaking, the oldest metal work in europe is also found in the balkans.
There is just too many clues to ignore.

nordicwarrior
22-01-13, 02:21
Please let's not get into what group is more "evolved". I don't think that's politically correct. Just to refresh everyone's collective memory:

1. Neanderthal had fire 200,000 thousand years before homo sapien in Africa.
2. Neanderthal sailed to Cyprus and many other islands well before homo sapien ever thought of making a boat.
3. Proto-European populations were hunter/gatherer for the most part, had fertility based religions, and from the looks of it didn't participate in large scale battle/wars. When certain pockets of these original inhabitants figured out the "finer arts of advanced warfare" from the newer populations (is advanced warfare really fine?--that's another thread) it didn't work out too well for these steppes peoples.


Now I'm going to sit down and have a meal of steak and potatoes. Could I ask one of you hg R members to please cut my food into tiny pieces so I don't choke?:laughing:

Yetos
22-01-13, 11:10
@ Taranis what we do is wrong

I will give an example,
the word is donkey

Finnic - Uralian = aasi
OCS = Osl
Latin = Asinus

from that only we can say
1) there is connection of IE with Uralian
2) the word aasi is a loan to Uralian- Finnic

but lets see this

Tocharian = Kercapo
Iranic-Persian = Xar
Sansqrit = Khara

so in these langueges does asinus cognates with Kercapo? I think NO

but lets look Sumerian.
the Sumerian woprd for donkey is anse

by that we can see that Summerian anse affected all western IE words, but not the East of Summerian, and Finnic aasi is a loan word, so no connection with Uralian languages but with Summerian.
OR asinus (and simmilar IE) was the language of Varna which transmited to Summeria and Uralo-finnic.
OR Sumerian took Anse from Steppe people (which I doubt cause then it should exist Sansqrit Iranian Tocharian)

same with the words that I did cherry pick, it is not diabolic coinsidebce,

as I said I do not want to make PHDs or ISOs, but I think with the above you understand what I say, if someones wants to make a theoritical methodology go ahead, but Summerian is as you said a language almost alone, but the vocabulary of sumerian in other languages can help us understand many, like the above,

anse and Kercapo is a good example, if you drop aga and Gal and Ehus and Kur (as cherry pick)

and I am not a magician of words.
the wine as you describe Jejn Oinos wine Woinos (I think owinos due to oxinos Οξινος-Οξος (wine-vinegar) and ι = dzot γιωτ) (according time accidity we have Στεμφυλα, Μεστος (μουστος) Οινος Οξος) shows another conectivity, the one I mentioned many times.

I think this time I gave something that can not be characterized as magic,
the differences and the effect that Sumerian word Anse is catalytic, and is not the only one,
Homeric άργος (modern agros) and αρδευσις (irrigation) from IE arg = silver? or from gods Sirris and Eorda thracian Ardiea)?, or totally local Balcanic-Aegean that went to middle East?

PS
what methodology can give the Kercapo and Anisus in IE except a good observation (cross serach)
and why that limit? West of Summerian is anisus and East is Kercapo.
Same search with summerian aga Kur Gal Ehus gives also strange results

I do not believe this time to call me also a magician

Kardu
22-01-13, 17:43
As far as I know among living languages Georgian is one which still keeps Sumerian loan-words.
I am not sure if they were directly borrowed or via some other language. I can't find the list but from top of my head here are some:

დოქ-ი - dok-i - small vessel - Summ. Dug: standard size earthen jar, pot, jug, vessel
ყანა - k'ana - cultivated field/ground - Sum. gána, gán: tract of land, field parcel; (flat) surface, plane; measure of surface; shape, outline; cultivation
გიჟ-ი - gizh-i - crazy/possessed - Sum. Gissu - Shadow/Dark/Black (used in epithets of magicians)
გუთ-ან-ი - gut-an-i - plough - Sum. Gud: Ox
გორა - gora - hill - Sum. Mountain