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Finalise
23-01-13, 02:46
I know there's autosomal maps, and y-frequency maps (which are a bit useless imo), but nevertheless why is there no frequency of mtdna maps?

Y-frequency maps alone, are almost useless, coupled with mtDna maps they might give more insight.

Alexandros
23-02-13, 14:32
I agree. I have read from Maciamo previously that mt-Haplogroups are not very informative for migrations in Europe, but still would be interesting to have some maps.

oriental
23-02-13, 23:03
You can find mtDNA maps by googling Migration maps of mtDNA. There are lots of them.

Grubbe
12-05-13, 16:45
Yes, migration maps. But Finalise wanted frequency maps, I so would I.

BakodiP
12-05-13, 22:16
There are some: http://gentis.ru/info/mtdna-tutorial/hg-j/j, http://gentis.ru/info/mtdna-tutorial/hg-h/h1.

adamo
13-05-13, 02:09
If they could be provided on Eupedia some day , that would be like a blessing from god, good approximations for some more difficult groups (I, mtdna W) with corrections being brought over time, would be awesome! : )

zanipolo
13-05-13, 06:24
There are some: http://gentis.ru/info/mtdna-tutorial/hg-j/j, http://gentis.ru/info/mtdna-tutorial/hg-h/h1.

the other maps are interesting, like

HV0 - algier
HV1 - somalia
HV2 - Gedosia

Grubbe
13-05-13, 11:00
There are some: http://gentis.ru/info/mtdna-tutorial/hg-j/j, http://gentis.ru/info/mtdna-tutorial/hg-h/h1.

Thanks! More of that! :smile:

Emcat
18-07-13, 03:16
I would like to see anything on my new one. One company said U5b1 now with a new test at a different company they are saying U5b1h. No clue yet all I really know is few have tested this way and one is from Norway and one from Ireland. Both oldest direct maternal go back to about 1750 for one and 1850 for the other.

Noman
26-08-13, 19:43
Because when you look at mtdna frequency maps then most of the lame migration theories fall apart.

BakodiP
26-08-13, 20:18
Because when you look at mtdna frequency maps then most of the lame migration theories fall apart.

Yeah, that's why most of the scientists on genetics haven't even made one. They're not that kind of persons who like to break invalid theories. Not at all... Don't mind, it was a nice one!

Noman
27-08-13, 22:11
Well it's funny you never hear about migrations of mtDNA. The reason why is it points out the lie. Of course male dna moves around more but if you are talking about real migrations it ought to show some signs of that too, if big migrations are happening. But just like the ones you point to they all seem to center on a couple fixed locations and that's it.

sparkey
28-08-13, 00:06
Well it's funny you never hear about migrations of mtDNA. The reason why is it points out the lie. Of course male dna moves around more but if you are talking about real migrations it ought to show some signs of that too, if big migrations are happening. But just like the ones you point to they all seem to center on a couple fixed locations and that's it.

It isn't just that "male dna moves around more," it's also that it has a higher extinction rate within stationary populations. That has a lot to do with powerful men being able to monopolize the gene pool in a way that women cannot. As a result, population bottlenecks and genetic drift may reduce a male lineage down to one recent representative in a given region, while preserving a dozen comparable female lineages. The result is a much fleshier tree for mtDNA than Y-DNA. Combine that with the fact that few studies have tested deep mtDNA clades, and that there is no such thing as mtDNA STRs, and it becomes too difficult to infer as much from the data. Even if female lineages moved around exactly as much as male lineages, this would be the case.

Ike
28-08-13, 00:37
Up till now we used our history knowledge to identify Y-DNA.
In the future Y-DNA will help us resolve historic events.

Noman
28-08-13, 06:31
It isn't just that "male dna moves around more," it's also that it has a higher extinction rate within stationary populations. That has a lot to do with powerful men being able to monopolize the gene pool in a way that women cannot. As a result, population bottlenecks and genetic drift may reduce a male lineage down to one recent representative in a given region, while preserving a dozen comparable female lineages. The result is a much fleshier tree for mtDNA than Y-DNA. Combine that with the fact that few studies have tested deep mtDNA clades, and that there is no such thing as mtDNA STRs, and it becomes too difficult to infer as much from the data. Even if female lineages moved around exactly as much as male lineages, this would be the case.

I think you just said the same thing as me with a different conclusion.

I don't think there are any tribes with no females who were full of only brothers. Pretty sure the celts were very female-centric as the hunter gatherers had always been. Meaning they would have brought all their women with them on any moves. This implies the spread of r1b was about a tenth as fast as some would claim since there's just no evidence of mass migrations of mtdna.

So yes if someone managed to rape every woman in europe we know it's possible but that goes against what we know about their society. It was a matriarchial society where women selected who to have sex with and did so freely and everyone took care of the kids equally. Which is pretty much the opposite of the brutal rape spree that's implied by a fast migration with no mtdna at all brought along.

And that was the norm, not the exception, for other tribes. Patriarchy comes with brick and mortar society. Sabine rape is the only case we know of the opposite.

Ike
28-08-13, 12:52
So yes if someone managed to rape every woman in europe we know it's possible but that goes against what we know about their society.

It may have been consensual? :) Quality R1b DNA like:

5999

ebAmerican
28-08-13, 17:15
I'm having a hard time finding where I read it, but I believe the X-chromosome from a father, and an X-Chromosome from a mother can recombine and mirror one another. In a female offspring with an X from dad and an X from mom would it be possible that the X from mom recombines with dad or mirrors dad to produce something that looks like a different mtDNA haplogroup than moms?

I've also read (somewhere, I'll try and find it) that mtDNA is not a good predictor for population movements because of it's fast mutation rate, and ability to recombine. yDNA is more stable, mutates slower and doesn't recombine, except in rare occasions like male XX syndrome.

LeBrok
28-08-13, 17:45
I'm having a hard time finding where I read it, but I believe the X-chromosome from a father, and an X-Chromosome from a mother can recombine and mirror one another. In a female offspring with an X from dad and an X from mom would it be possible that the X from mom recombines with dad or mirrors dad to produce something that looks like a different mtDNA haplogroup than moms?

I've also read (somewhere, I'll try and find it) that mtDNA is not a good predictor for population movements because of it's fast mutation rate, and ability to recombine. yDNA is more stable, mutates slower and doesn't recombine, except in rare occasions like male XX syndrome.
Little correction though. MtDNA it is an extra DNA contained in Mitochondria (mt) and not in cell nucleus together with 23 chromosomes. It never recombines with fathers DNA.

ebAmerican
28-08-13, 18:45
Never say never, lol. I read up on mtDNA on wiki and there was one reported male where the male form of mtDNA made it in during fertilization. I guess it is really rare. The sperm tail holds the mtDNA, but is usually destroyed upon fertilization.

Sile
28-08-13, 22:29
I'm having a hard time finding where I read it, but I believe the X-chromosome from a father, and an X-Chromosome from a mother can recombine and mirror one another. In a female offspring with an X from dad and an X from mom would it be possible that the X from mom recombines with dad or mirrors dad to produce something that looks like a different mtDNA haplogroup than moms?

I've also read (somewhere, I'll try and find it) that mtDNA is not a good predictor for population movements because of it's fast mutation rate, and ability to recombine. yDNA is more stable, mutates slower and doesn't recombine, except in rare occasions like male XX syndrome.

The x chromosone from a father? ..........clear this up for me.
X comes only from the maternal line, that is the maternal lines of males and females of you mother...none of your paternal line is present in X

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hulseberg/DNA/x%20inheritance%20man%206%20gen.pdf

Noman
28-08-13, 22:42
The x chromosone from a father? ..........clear this up for me.
X comes only from the maternal line, that is the maternal lines of males and females of you mother...none of your paternal line is present in X

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hulseberg/DNA/x%20inheritance%20man%206%20gen.pdf

The male gives EITHER an X or a Y. The female only has two Xs so she always gives an X to the baby. If the baby gets a Y from the father it's male, if it gets an X it's female. So males do pass on their X but only to females.

Intelligence is highly X linked. So is muscle strength. Since women have two X then get only half the mental retardation of men and a similarly less amount of muscular distrophy.

So while you can't give a direct trace back to "eve" or anything with X it's very important. Not as useful as a marker but functionally speaking it's much more important.

And it's interesting to me to see this is the case, that women are the ones responsible for the brains of their male children and men only pass half the intelligence genes to daughters, so 2/3 of these genes come from women not men. Which means if you want smart and strong kids you need to select a good female to mate with.

Sile
28-08-13, 23:09
The male gives EITHER an X or a Y. The female only has two Xs so she always gives an X to the baby. If the baby gets a Y from the father it's male, if it gets an X it's female. So males do pass on their X but only to females.

Intelligence is highly X linked. So is muscle strength. Since women have two X then get only half the mental retardation of men and a similarly less amount of muscular distrophy.

So while you can't give a direct trace back to "eve" or anything with X it's very important. Not as useful as a marker but functionally speaking it's much more important.

And it's interesting to me to see this is the case, that women are the ones responsible for the brains of their male children and men only pass half the intelligence genes to daughters, so 2/3 of these genes come from women not men. Which means if you want smart and strong kids you need to select a good female to mate with.

lets clear this up....as per the chart I linked, the male gets zero from his paternal line for his X chromosome. The male does get some from his maternal grandfather ( see chart ) etc. So a male gathers , as per what you state , all brains and all muscle from his maternal lines, be it maternal paternal line and maternal maternal lines.

The paternal line plays nothing for X chromosome for a man

Noman
29-08-13, 00:17
lets clear this up....as per the chart I linked, the male gets zero from his paternal line for his X chromosome. The male does get some from his maternal grandfather ( see chart ) etc. So a male gathers , as per what you state , all brains and all muscle from his maternal lines, be it maternal paternal line and maternal maternal lines.

The paternal line plays nothing for X chromosome for a man
Nope.

Also he only gets it from his maternal grandfather half the time, not always. You could have maternally linked X going all the way back in time, though it should fall out eventually and will recombine anyway.

LeBrok
29-08-13, 05:18
Never say never, lol. I read up on mtDNA on wiki and there was one reported male where the male form of mtDNA made it in during fertilization. I guess it is really rare. The sperm tail holds the mtDNA, but is usually destroyed upon fertilization.
Granted. Sometimes weird things happen in nature. :)

Ike
29-08-13, 16:11
Intelligence is highly X linked. So is muscle strength. Since women have two X then get only half the mental retardation of men and a similarly less amount of muscular distrophy.


Isn't it autosomal?

Noman
29-08-13, 20:17
http://www.powells.com/biblio/9780275959036

Maybe this can explain some of it. Not all intelligence comes off of X, but it has some big effects. I have to wonder if some complex things need to stay together as a sort of package to function properly. Also when you think of rape, it seems like this would be a way to somewhat limit its effects, like a natural defense mechanism to preserve the mother's dna. One could wonder if negative blood types worked the same way in ancient times to keep out foreign dna.

Ike
02-09-13, 23:03
OK, but "The author presents a theory that major genes controlling the growth of human intelligence, both left- and right-brain attributes, are on the X-chromosome."

So we can't say it's conclusive yet.