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spongetaro
23-01-13, 12:39
http://cphpost.dk/news/national/prehistoric-danes-be-genetically-mapped




The history of prehistoric residents of Denmark will soon be genetically mapped using the skeletons of people who lived as far back as 7,000 years ago.
Genetic researchers from the Centre for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen's Natural History Museum say the project, named 'The Genomic History of Denmark', will make Denmark the first country to catalogue genetic profiles of its residents from its earliest inhabitants up to today.
The scientists hope the study will help identify early Danes' genetic profile, where they came from and which diseases they suffered from.
The team of geneticists who will take part in the five-year project specialises in extracting and analysing DNA from ancient material, and some of the materials they are looking at in this project stem from the bones of hunter-gatherers who lived in present-day Denmark over 7,000 years ago.
“When we have analysed all the material, new and old, we will, among other things, be able to pinpoint when various diseases arrived in Denmark,” Eske Willerslev, of the Centre for GeoGenetics, told Politiken newspaper. “And we can see if large epidemics, like the plague, helped catalyse a unique and genetically orientated ‘extra resistance’ against, for example, the HIV virus, that we see today in many northern Europeans.”
The researchers are negotiating with the National Museum to be able to use the remains. The project has received a 36 million kroner grant from the University of Copenhagen, but Willerslev expected the total cost of the project to exceed 80 million kroner.
When completed, the project will have mapped the genomes of 100 Danes, from the hunter-gatherer period, through the Bronze Age, Iron Age, the Viking Era and the early Industrial Age.
It is expected that the DNA in the oldest remains will be heavily decomposed, but the team was confident that it would be possible to map the genome. In 2010, Willerslev led a team that reconstructed the complete genetic blueprint of a 4,000 year-old Greenlander based on DNA samples from single tuft of hair.

Sennevini
23-01-13, 14:23
That is great news!

This will give so much information!
I also wonder if they are able to subtract Y-dna, what it will turn out to be, if possible to say.
I wish them good luck with the project!

LeBrok
23-01-13, 17:16
Yeh, great news, and I really hope more countries will follow soon.

sparkey
23-01-13, 19:42
7000 YBP is pre-farming in Denmark. We're talking Ertebølle culture. Mesolithic YDNA? Should be interesting...

nordicwarrior
23-01-13, 19:46
I think we should post our best guesses... What should the prize be for the most accurate theory?

LeBrok
23-01-13, 21:09
Pride and a smile on you face. :grin:


For anything else there is Master Card.

nordicfoyer
30-01-13, 22:07
OK here it goes:
5,000 B.C. until 1,500 B.C.-- almost complete I2 with maybe a small sliver of G
1,500 B.C. until 200 A.D./400 A.D.-- strong introduction of R1b lines at the expense of I2, by 200 A.D. almost complete R1b throughout Jutland. (ie. Cimbri, Teutons)
200 A.D./400 A.D. until present-- influx of I1 at the expense of R1b. Heavily R1b Angles flow to England. Much later we see the introduction of J1 and J2. Daughtering out brings I1 from peak of 70% of male population in 700 A.D.-800 A.D. to levels we see today.
You can't make fun of my theory unless you post your own!:satisfied:

sparkey
31-01-13, 00:12
For-fun, not-too-serious guesses:

5000BCE-4000BCE (Mesolithic, Ertebølle): I2-M223 majority, plus I1, and a surprise or two like E1b, F, or an I* branch that links way down the I1 line
4000BCE-2900BCE (Neolithic, Funnelbeaker): Similar but with a little more G2a and J2a and fewer surprises
2900BCE-2400BCE (Chalcolithic, Corded Ware): Rapid R1a growth, diminishing of most old ones except an important I1 minority, whose founder effect will begin shortly
2400BCE-1700BCE (late Chalcolithic, quasi-Beaker... what do you call this period in Denmark?): R1a still a majority at the beginning but with I1 growth that makes it also very important, initial important R1b growth too
1700BCE-500BCE (Nordic Bronze Age): R1b, especially U106+, and I1 grow so that R1b, R1a, and I1 are roughly equal, probably R1b > I1 > R1a by the end of the period
500BCE onward: Not much but drift to make it more solidly R1b > I1 > R1a

oriental
31-01-13, 00:34
My Swedish friend gave me a little history of the Vikings. He said the raids into Frankish territory encouraged the Franks to give all those lands boarding Viking lands especially with rivers so Netherlands, Normandy were taken over by the raiders to prevent Vikings from Norway. The Franks were most cooperative with Romans and were given lands by the Romans what is now Belgium. The French language developed with their version of Latin. They were not German speaking with the collapse of the Roman Empire. In fact hey may have precipitated the collapse when they were denied by the Romans as Provincial governors. The Franks also attacked the Danes to expand their own Empire.

nordicfoyer
31-01-13, 02:45
My Swedish friend gave me a little history of the Vikings. He said the raids into Frankish territory encouraged the Franks to give all those lands boarding Viking lands especially with rivers so Netherlands, Normandy were taken over by the raiders to prevent Vikings from Norway.

Oriental, I wasn't able to grasp the idea behind this quote. Would it be possible for you to rephrase it? Who did the Franks give the land to? And why did the raiders in Normandy prevent Vikings from attacking Norway?

And Sparkey, I like your idea of a surprise haplogroup like E or F... that would be awesome. I'm hoping for I1 to be in Jutland early and often, but am skepital they didn't arrive until much later.

*Edit* I think I figured out your idea Oriental... Are you saying the Franks gave their neighboring shore lands to Danish Vikings in order to prevent future attacks from the Vikings of Norway? I can see that happening.

ElHorsto
31-01-13, 14:14
No risk, no fun!
For the Mesolithic period I bet there could be a few HG Q as surprises in addition to the already favoured various HG I.

LeBrok
31-01-13, 18:18
I'm always afraid that ancient dna samples are skewed big time. Let's say we have 2 distinct population (just an example) J2 farmers, who live by rivers in big populations, and G herders who prefer higher grounds and smaller groups. By nature of things, the J2 settlements were washed away by floods and gone forever, but many burials in caves and mountains of Gs would survive. After analyzing ancient available DNA we would get only Gs at the beginning, and still mostly Gs after many samples tested.

ElHorsto
31-01-13, 18:48
I'm always afraid that ancient dna samples are skewed big time. Let's say we have 2 distinct population (just an example) J2 farmers, who live by rivers in big populations, and G herders who prefer higher grounds and smaller groups. By nature of things, the J2 settlements were washed away by floods and gone forever, but many burials in caves and mountains of Gs would survive. After analyzing ancient available DNA we would get only Gs at the beginning, and still mostly Gs after many samples tested.

Good point. The good news is that Denmark has no rivers, valleys and hills. Bad news is that the sea probably already flooded many important coastal settlements from coastal peoples like seafarers and fishers. Even today the sandy north-sea coasts are still changing extremely quickly. For instance the island Sylt has been predicted to disappear in a few hundred years.

nordicfoyer
31-01-13, 18:49
<=Clapping for Lebrok's statement. The elephant in the room regarding accurate y-DNA sample collection (especially in Jutland) is sea-level change. A 300 ft. increase in ocean water will effectively eliminate a huge chunk of population--the coastal peoples won't be accounted for and therefore the results will be biased. And 300 ft. is what we are talking about with the melting of the Ice Age sheets. But, that being said, I'm still very much looking forward to these findings.

nordicfoyer
31-01-13, 19:38
Oops, sorry I stepped on your comment ElHorsto. I must have typed mine while yours was posting.

oriental
02-02-13, 00:29
Who did the Franks give the land to? And why did the raiders in Normandy prevent Vikings from attacking Norway?

Sorry if my wording isn't clear. The raiders were the raiding Vikings. The Franks probably too occupied with other enemies while the Vikings were quick and often disappeared before an army could be organized, decided to give the lands bordering Scandinavia and Normandy to the Viking raiders. The Normans are the descendants of these Vikings. The reasoning was that similar to that in which "to catch a thief would best be helped by employing a thief." Did you see the movie "To catch a thief" starring Cary Grant and Grace Kelly? The Vikings who were given lands would know all the tricks of the other raiding Vikings would know how to stop them. After this there were fewer raids.

My landlady who was Finnish said that Scandinavia at that time was warmer and so there was a population boom. With the excess population and little job prospects they went raiding.

The same thing happened with the Crusades. The feudal lords probably were practicing polygamy and had way too many children so the excess sons who became knights became "ronin" or freelance knights and engaged in extortion and other nefarious activities. Probably many were illegitimate so the term "bastards" may have got the negative connotations from this period. It so happened that the Byzantium Emperor also asked for help from the Pope as the Muslims were bordering the Byzantium Empire and threatening their existence. Well what better way to rid the problem of excess knights with a crusade to save Christianity? So the Crusade got started.

Hmm. I am curious. Are you also NordicWarrior. NordicWarrior, Boss and you use the same avator. Sometime I see only the avator and think it is the same person.

I also found Per is also a Scandinavian name and Person is the son of Per. I wonder how person became an anonymous pronoun.

nordicfoyer
02-02-13, 03:48
Thanks for the explanation Oriental. Yes, I am nordicwarrior and nordicfoyer, but I'm not Boss. I'll send you a P.M. to explain further. The two accounts will soon merge or one will be dropped. Sorry for the confusion.

Jackson
02-02-13, 11:15
For-fun, not-too-serious guesses:

5000BCE-4000BCE (Mesolithic, Ertebølle): I2-M223 majority, plus I1, and a surprise or two like E1b, F, or an I* branch that links way down the I1 line
4000BCE-2900BCE (Neolithic, Funnelbeaker): Similar but with a little more G2a and J2a and fewer surprises
2900BCE-2400BCE (Chalcolithic, Corded Ware): Rapid R1a growth, diminishing of most old ones except an important I1 minority, whose founder effect will begin shortly
2400BCE-1700BCE (late Chalcolithic, quasi-Beaker... what do you call this period in Denmark?): R1a still a majority at the beginning but with I1 growth that makes it also very important, initial important R1b growth too
1700BCE-500BCE (Nordic Bronze Age): R1b, especially U106+, and I1 grow so that R1b, R1a, and I1 are roughly equal, probably R1b > I1 > R1a by the end of the period
500BCE onward: Not much but drift to make it more solidly R1b > I1 > R1a

Interesting.

Can't wait for the results of this to come through.

MOESAN
02-02-13, 20:31
I suppose Y-E1b V13 or of same stock of V13 accompanied Y-G2 neolithical people in central danubian cultures (+ some rare Y-J2) and could have been present a low level about 4000 BC in Denmark coming from South - at the same time or almost, by sea arrived cousins of 'long barrows' people that, I think, played a big role among Funnelbeaker culture, before the Corded & BB times - this maritime megalithic culture had surely enough introduced Y-J2 (not the same as the ones that was with 'danubian' culture) + some J1 and maybe already (not so sure) a zest of Y-R1b-L21 and upstreams of these - concerning Y-I, I think Y-I1 or ancestors were yet South and North Denmark and but I am no sure about Y-I72a2 (ex I1c ex I2b) - but I am not a wizard - as a lot here I see Y-R1a coming wis Corded Ware culture -

MOESAN
02-02-13, 20:33
wow! I discover a new HG! Y-I72a2 ??? well well... I2a1b !

Balder
08-04-13, 20:45
Agriculture in Denmark and Southern Sweden began during the transition from Ertebølle to Funnelbeaker.
http://www.uni-kiel.de/landscapes/allgemein/download/calendar/2012_Soerensen_Karg_2012_JAS_Meso-NeoTrans-SouthernScand.pdf (http://www.uni-kiel.de/landscapes/allgemein/download/calendar/2012_Soerensen_Karg_2012_JAS_Meso-NeoTrans-SouthernScand.pdf)

And Jutland was a case apart from the rest, they began with agriculture as well before.

MOESAN
08-04-13, 22:35
Agriculture in Denmark and Southern Sweden began during the transition from Ertebølle to Funnelbeaker.
http://www.uni-kiel.de/landscapes/allgemein/download/calendar/2012_Soerensen_Karg_2012_JAS_Meso-NeoTrans-SouthernScand.pdf (http://www.uni-kiel.de/landscapes/allgemein/download/calendar/2012_Soerensen_Karg_2012_JAS_Meso-NeoTrans-SouthernScand.pdf)

And Jutland was a case apart from the rest, they began with agriculture as well before.

Thanks for the link, Balder
I have not had time to read completely the survey - I shall read it soon -
If I understand well, agriculture began earlier in Jutland? I think it could be the result of megalithers (close to the famous Long Barrows people of Britain) who seem having had an influence upon the Funnelbeaker Culture supposed (this last one) being of early I-E colonization? What is striking is the coastal enough distribution of first 'neolithical' settlements in Denmark - a subsequant colonization (of more continental origin) take foot in Scandinvavia later?

Balder
09-04-13, 01:44
MOESAN.

In fact the ‘neolithisation’ in Jutland come from the East. From the coastal regions of the peninsula, notably in Wangels and Rosenhof to 4700BC.


http://www.hgo.se/arkeologi/digital_litteratur/Fischer_A_2002_Food_for_Feasting.pdf
http://what-when-how.com/ancient-europe/transition-to-agriculture-in-northern-europe-transition-to-agriculture-70004000-b-c/

http://i.imgur.com/iC4Ol1f.png?1

Mesolithic and Neolithic Subsistence in Denmark: New Stable Isotope Data
http://dro.dur.ac.uk/3768/1/3768.pdf

Anthro-inclined
09-04-13, 03:38
MOESAN.

In fact the ‘neolithisation’ in Jutland come from the East. From the coastal regions of the peninsula, notably in Wangels and Rosenhof to 4700BC.


http://www.hgo.se/arkeologi/digital_litteratur/Fischer_A_2002_Food_for_Feasting.pdf
http://what-when-how.com/ancient-europe/transition-to-agriculture-in-northern-europe-transition-to-agriculture-70004000-b-c/

http://i.imgur.com/iC4Ol1f.png?1

Mesolithic and Neolithic Subsistence in Denmark: New Stable Isotope Data
http://dro.dur.ac.uk/3768/1/3768.pdf
Great info Balder, so much to read into. Very interesting time in Western European history, and the articles youve provided have a wealth of information on this amazing transitional period, greatly appreciated.

Nobody1
09-04-13, 06:46
at MOESAN

are you confusing Funnel Beaker with Bell Beaker?
Bell Beaker was a NON-Indo-European west to east [Chalcolithic] culture.

1. Ertebolle and 2. Funnel Beaker are Pre-Indo-European [Neolithic/Chalcolithic] cultures
they were not influenced by the long barrow of Britain (poss. the other way around) but by the Neolithic and Chalcolithic cultures of the Danube and Carpathians.
Funnel Beaker was succeeded by the first/earliest Indo-European wave (Corded Ware Culture)
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long

Nobody1
09-04-13, 06:59
at Balder

great informative post.

Have you heard about this recent Neolithic find (Gök4) in Sweden ? [Apr. 2012]
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-swedish-farmer-came-from-the-mediterranean-1.10541?nc=1337092258562

Genetically Gök4 is closest to "allele sharing" with East Mediterraneans (Cyprus and Greece) and overall very similar to Ötzi.
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/04/ancient-dna-from-neolithic-sweden.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html

your sources also show a southern (Danubian/Carpathian) impact for Ertebolle and Funnel Beaker

Pierre M. Vermeersch - Contributions to the Mesolithic in Europe (1990)
In addition to pottery, ornaments made from the teeth of extinct animals and the "shoe-last" axes of amphibolite, originating in an Danubian context in Silesia, Poland, appear in an Ertebolle context in Denmark (Fischer 1982, Vang Petersen 1990)

Something the map (A. Fischer) that you posted clearly shows with Danubian settlements on the lower Oder and the Danubian shaft-hole axes scattered over Zealand, Funen and East Jutland;

Sarunas Milisauskas - European Prehistory (2002)
In the Carpathian Mountains, south of the Funnel Beaker culture area, the beginnings of copper metallurgy occur during the Middle Neolithic period. The small quantities of copper artifacts that turn up in Funnel Beaker sites indicate that some sort of exchange network linked them to the Carpathian region.

This new find Gök4 (east mediterranean) corresponds with Busby et al. 2011; Neolithic migrations being from "centres of renewed expansion"

ElHorsto
09-04-13, 12:19
at Balder

great informative post.

Have you heard about this recent Neolithic find (Gök4) in Sweden ? [Apr. 2012]
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-swedish-farmer-came-from-the-mediterranean-1.10541?nc=1337092258562

Genetically Gök4 is closest to "allele sharing" with East Mediterraneans (Cyprus and Greece) and overall very similar to Ötzi.
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/04/ancient-dna-from-neolithic-sweden.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html


There are differing opinions regarding Dieneke's claims and east mediterranean origin of Gok4. We once discussed Gok4 in an older thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27519-Neolithic-farmers-Southwest-Europeans-or-West-Asians

Other discussed issues like gedrosia etc. are a bit outdated though.

Balder
10-04-13, 21:28
at Balder

great informative post.

Have you heard about this recent Neolithic find (Gök4) in Sweden ? [Apr. 2012]
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-swedish-farmer-came-from-the-mediterranean-1.10541?nc=1337092258562

Genetically Gök4 is closest to "allele sharing" with East Mediterraneans (Cyprus and Greece) and overall very similar to Ötzi.
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/04/ancient-dna-from-neolithic-sweden.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html

your sources also show a southern (Danubian/Carpathian) impact for Ertebolle and Funnel Beaker

Pierre M. Vermeersch - Contributions to the Mesolithic in Europe (1990)
In addition to pottery, ornaments made from the teeth of extinct animals and the "shoe-last" axes of amphibolite, originating in an Danubian context in Silesia, Poland, appear in an Ertebolle context in Denmark (Fischer 1982, Vang Petersen 1990)

Something the map (A. Fischer) that you posted clearly shows with Danubian settlements on the lower Oder and the Danubian shaft-hole axes scattered over Zealand, Funen and East Jutland;

Sarunas Milisauskas - European Prehistory (2002)
In the Carpathian Mountains, south of the Funnel Beaker culture area, the beginnings of copper metallurgy occur during the Middle Neolithic period. The small quantities of copper artifacts that turn up in Funnel Beaker sites indicate that some sort of exchange network linked them to the Carpathian region.

This new find Gök4 (east mediterranean) corresponds with Busby et al. 2011; Neolithic migrations being from "centres of renewed expansion"
In my opinion, it was mostly focused on a combination of "mediterranean " and "natives" who shaped the 'Neolithic culture' in Scandinavia. A bit far fetched. It is also important to note that when the wave of immigrants reaches Scandinavia, the 'Greek' 'Cyprus' element was already rather diluted. The majority of the roots of the judging of all migrant farmers to Scandinavia seems rather here this from Central Europe. From the Danubian culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian_culture

The fact that it is a large time gap between the Linear Pottery (Danubian) culture's expansion into northern Germany and agricultural encroachment to the North, do not seem interested in the author of the study.

Whether it is, the most German data we have to work with, leaving big question marks regarding Scandinavia, especially when the only Neolithic data we have is from the island of Gotland, and a few from the mainland who really represent the early Neolithic in Scandinavia.

The media sits and frantically uses Sykes name "Eve's seven daughters" makes it all the more festive.

Future studies will show.

MOESAN
13-04-13, 18:15
Someones consider the Funnelbeaker or Trichterbecher of N-Germany of 'neolithic' profile, as of chiefly I-E origin (early Steppes people intrusion)- but it would be more sensible to consider it as a mix where the megalithers (akin to "Long Barrows" bearers) played a big role in transmission of agriculture on the coasts; the physical contribution of first genuine 'Danubians' = initial LBK would be slight enough for I think: these first colonists remained a long time endogame and were recognizable in Normandy, Parisian Bassin, Elsass and other today Germany places as in central Europe, but (I lack solid ground here) i did not hear of a same situation in Northern germany where Corded people found seemingly directly megalithers - the artefacts of danubian origin there could have been send by I-E Corded acculturated in Central Danubian Europe???
the compositon of Göka autosomals, if reliable, shows me an heavy component of Western Mediterraneans and some SouthwestAsians mixed with some Atlantic or N-W-European componant, very suitable for the "Long Barrows" people where the gracilized cromagnoid + W mediterranean (Chancelade accretions?) mean seem lightly influenced by more eastern new Mediterranean types (the elite?) - mybe yet some mixing with northern Europeans HGs? just guesses, I confess - but all that seems coherent -

Balder
13-04-13, 20:34
Northern Germany and Scandinavia, have the highest level of lactose tolerance in the world today. On another hand, Southern Europe, such as Greece, have high levels of lactose intolerance. That's why possibly the neothilision of the region was more linked to expansion of the Danubian culture, lifestyle and Danubian migrants than anything else. As the Danish map that I posted.

Danubians were heavy into cattle-farming from the (slightly later) get-go. With cows, you easily end up with so much milk that drinking it is the most straightforward way of using it other than making butter and cheese for storage.

The different circles of color on this map of Europe show where lactose tolerance—the ability for older children and adults to drink milk without it causing illness or discomfort—developed in a particular area. The red area in the center shows.
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20100120/a1922_2648.18.10.jpg

Absence of the lactase-persistence-associated allele in early Neolithic Europeans
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/10/3736.full

MOESAN
14-04-13, 20:09
I was not clear enough, it seems: the anthropological term "danubian" recalls a phenotype of supposed mediterranean origin ("mediterranean" is a very unprecise term), subdolichocephallic, high skulled, frontally foreheaded, prognatous enough, very gracile, with some clavicule-dorsal peculiarity - this type, very common firstable in greek Neolithic and in some place of South-Anatolia, was linked to the first danubian (culturel term here!!!) expansion in central Europe - it appears that agriculturors did not mix immediately with hunters-gatherers in central Europe - this type was found in some places of France, very far from its basis, and in N-Italy too, and Germany etc... the lactase tolerance could be acquired by selection, not predicting the other autosomals distribution in populations - at last neolithic, the central Europe was a mix of autochtonous populations with the genuine first "danubians" and with some steppic peoples intrusions - and this map you give us above (thanks for that) seems to me very 'naive' in its forms: a so beautiful "ovale" can not be representative of the true distribution of this gene in the mountainous districts of Europe! it is just a proxi - no offense to you that search and find some stuff to go farther.
what seems curious to me too is the rarity of this special gene among populations that breed caprins and ovins -
have a good evening!

Grubbe
07-05-13, 13:04
http://cphpost.dk/news/national/prehistoric-danes-be-genetically-mapped

Great news! Hopefully similar projects will be initiated in the other Scandinavian countries as well.

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 08:37
5 years i cant wait that long